Moore's one criticism

Mustex · January 4th, 2005, 06:12 PM

O.k., in his whole mini-commentary Moore only criticized on point in TOS. He didn't like the fact that you always KNEW that Adama was right, and you always KNEW that the Council of Twelve were wrong. Just wanted to know if any anti-TNSers have any defenses against this. Personally, I do kind of wonder how people even stupider than Bush and Kerry got into the council, and a man even smarter than Ross Perot got appointed leader of the military. I thought that most people settled for politicans smart enough to give the illusion of intellegence, without actually having it.

Eric Paddon · January 4th, 2005, 06:42 PM

"O.k., in his whole mini-commentary Moore only criticized on point in TOS. "

Sorry Mustex, but that is not the way I heard it. I heard not only the criticism of Adama as an effective leader just because he was military, which led to the very vile and false epithet of "fascist" to describe Galactica society, but there was also criticism rooted in their general attitude toward the history of TOS (as witnessed by their inability to recognize that the fans kept interest in Galactica alive, not Universal marketing), not to mention their inability to understand the reasons why the show was popular with its fans to begin with, as witnessed by their bewilderment over why their so-called "homages" received such a negative reaction (Calling 6's glowing spine a homage to the original red eye motion of the Cylons has to rank as the dumbest thing I have ever heard from any of them). What ultimately seeped out from them as I listened, was not so much ripping the original series as often as they could, as maintaining a condescending attitude the entire time and letting it slip out more than once.

As for the point about "knowing Adama was always right" it's legitimate to note the Council as dimwits in one episode only, "Baltar's Escape." (and to a lesser extent "Greetings From Earth") In the other episodes, Adama's clashes with the Council stem from a far more measured debate, especially in Saga and WOTG. In Saga, characters like Sire Anton, or Sire Montrose in WOTG do not come off with the kind of dimwittedness that classic Star Trek diplomats like Nilz Baris (Trouble With Tribbles) and Ambassador Robert "Poppinjay" Fox (A Taste Of Armageddon) ably display, yet I have yet to hear anyone hang original Star Trek with an albatross for always showing Starfleet captains as always right, and the civilian diplomats as always wrong (not to mention Starfleet admirals).

But OTOH, we saw exactly the kind of dramatic conflict that Moore and company so self-congratulatingly thought they invented with Adama-Roslin in "Living Legend" with Adama and Cain. A case where Adama put his responsibilities as civil leader ahead of military considerations.

thomas7g · January 4th, 2005, 06:53 PM

It was a lighthearted show. It wasn't meant to deal with grey characters so much. Though alot of that was probably simply the speed they had to produce each episode.

Alot of quality shows had your stock badguy who is dumber than molasses. And that basically waht the council was, a foil to give Adama challenges to overcome. Maj Burns of Mash was always wrong. Tom Magnum, PI was always good. Even on Star Trek Next Generation you saw clear distinctions of good and bad. Even Stargate has your rather dumb Goaulds and always right SG1.

There are just different types of shows.

dvo47p · January 5th, 2005, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustex

O.k., in his whole mini-commentary Moore only criticized on point in TOS. He didn't like the fact that you always KNEW that Adama was right, and you always KNEW that the Council of Twelve were wrong. Just wanted to know if any anti-TNSers have any defenses against this.

In 'Saga of a Star World' or the second episode of TOS, Sire Uri and rest of the Council of Twelve backed a desperate plan proposed by Apollo to clear a Cylon minefield. Commander Adama was vehemently against this plan. Indeed, Apollo and Adama had a heated exchange after the meeting. Adama was dead wrong and Sire Uri, Apollo and The Council of Twelve were right, go figure?

I am not so much that I’m against Ron Moore’s version of Battlestar Galactica (TNS). I just think Scifi/Universal would have oh so much wiser to have signed on with 'Apt Pupil' director Bryan Singer and producer Tom DeSanto. Their version was a continuation version, a mix of TOS actors along with a new generation of charactors.

Singer did go on to make two blockbuster movies and is directing the new Superman movie, DeSanto was the X-Men movies producer, and the new Transformers movie. Both are slated to re-make Logan's Run. Ron Moore's resume was and is much less successful, ergo he and his version of Battlestar Galactica cost less. We are talking about a show on The Scifi Channel, a pay cable TV channel with ads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas7g

Even Stargate has your rather dumb Goaulds and always right SG1.

There are just different types of shows.

Yeah, Stargate SG1 is on season nine, 238 episodes.

Mustex · January 5th, 2005, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas7g

Even Stargate has your rather dumb Goaulds and always right SG1.

What about when Jack let the plant in the base that shorted everything out. Of course at the time he was a general, and no longer a member of SG-1.

Mustex · January 5th, 2005, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvo47p

In 'Saga of a Star World' or the second episode of TOS, Sire Uri and rest of the Council of Twelve backed a desperate plan proposed by Apollo to clear a Cylon minefield. Commander Adama was vehemently against this plan. Indeed, Apollo and Adama had a heated exchange after the meeting. Adama was dead wrong and Sire Uri, Apollo and The Council of Twelve were right, go figure?

Point taken

Quote:

I am not so much that I’m against Ron Moore’s version of Battlestar Galactica (TNS). I just think Scifi/Universal would have oh so much wiser to have signed on with 'Apt Pupil' director Bryan Singer and producer Tom DeSanto. Their version was a continuation version, a mix of TOS actors along with a new generation of charactors.

Singer did go on to make two blockbuster movies and is directing the new Superman movie, DeSanto was the X-Men movies producer, and the new Transformers movie. Both are slated to re-make Logan's Run. Ron Moore's resume was and is much less successful, ergo he and his version of Battlestar Galactica cost less. We are talking about a show on The Scifi Channel, a pay cable TV channel with ads.

I would prefer a Hatch continuation. I like his version better, and he'd probably be cheaper than someone who just made a block-buster.

dvo47p · January 5th, 2005, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustex

I would prefer a Hatch continuation. I like his version better, and he'd probably be cheaper than someone who just made a block-buster.

Hatch had independent financial backing, Universal has a weird aversion to even try to do a Scifi series like Paramount's Star Trek.

Hello, The Scifi Channel spiked both the Singer/DeSanto then the DeSanto version before those guys did X-Men.

DeSanto is still working on some sort of Battlestar show, now.

Oh yeah, I saw a SKYONE EXCLUSIVE, on a episode of TNS, Husker and Lee put the entire fleet in harm's way to save Kara Thrace, because, "She is family" Relived Tigh of his duty when he pointed this out, come on..........

On TOS Adama abandoned Apollo and Starbuck in separate episodes, even changed course if they got captured so as not to put the rag tag fleet in harms way.

Oh yeah, Adama sent Apollo and Boomer out to destroy Starbuck's Recon Viper on yet another episode, go figure?

KJ · January 28th, 2005, 03:21 PM

Quote:

"O.k., in his whole mini-commentary Moore only criticized on point in TOS. "

Sorry Mustex, but that is not the way I heard it. I heard not only the criticism of Adama as an effective leader just because he was military, which led to the very vile and false epithet of "fascist" to describe Galactica society, but there was also criticism rooted in their general attitude toward the history of TOS (as witnessed by their inability to recognize that the fans kept interest in Galactica alive, not Universal marketing), not to mention their inability to understand the reasons why the show was popular with its fans to begin with, as witnessed by their bewilderment over why their so-called "homages" received such a negative reaction (Calling 6's glowing spine a homage to the original red eye motion of the Cylons has to rank as the dumbest thing I have ever heard from any of them). What ultimately seeped out from them as I listened, was not so much ripping the original series as often as they could, as maintaining a condescending attitude the entire time and letting it slip out more than once.

Are Universal hiring "Retards" as executives these days! Harsh to say, but is it true? They happen to be bewildered! What about fans bewilderment, it's taken over 25 years for the dumbasses in 'tailored suits' to mess up and deliver another G80 only this time it's a remake???

Quote:

[I would prefer a Hatch continuation. I like his version better, and he'd probably be cheaper than someone who just made a block-buster.

Didn't the TNS producers make the Viper Helmets of the new series for thousands of dollars?! Whereas the ones in the classic series were mere hundreds? and the TNS helmets, shouldn't have cost that much to begin with? A couple of thousand dollars that could have gone into valueble FX went into making mere helmet props that cost too much?

Hmmm? [*Bitter* taste in my mouth right now!]

Money not spend good at all.

Quote:

I am not so much that I’m against Ron Moore’s version of Battlestar Galactica (TNS). I just think Scifi/Universal would have oh so much wiser to have signed on with 'Apt Pupil' director Bryan Singer and producer Tom DeSanto. Their version was a continuation version, a mix of TOS actors along with a new generation of charactors.

Same feeling here and with most TOS fans man! Pity the stupid execs didn't back DeSanto after Singer left to do X2. If they can't Get IT after 26 years those stupid time wasting and money wasting executives never will. 26 years to get the idea it's another "space opera" about a race of people in space trying to survive and explore their roots of origin, please how stupid can executives get?!

Quote:

DeSanto is still working on some sort of Battlestar show, now.

I can't wait for DeSanto to showcase his portfolio of work showing all his concepts from his and Bryan Singer version. All the stuff that hasn't made it to fandom in any form yet.

By the way, nice comparsions there of the TNS and the classic TOS BG Dvo47p!

Bottom line. Moore and co see themselves as smartasses Re-inventing Sci-Fi. When we know they haven't. The flaws are ever so present in their show. But i can't believe the ego they have in, thinking they can just make critisms of the TOS and their show is so much more flawed. Ron Moore should wait until his version has far more episodes than the 24 of the TOS before he throws any critical opinons towards the original which his series is based upon.

Ron Moore. [*shakes head*] He puts his foot in his mouth all the time he opens it, even on a DVD commentary track!

*Sigh* What are we to do!

KJ

thomas7g · January 28th, 2005, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustex

O.k., in his whole mini-commentary Moore only criticized on point in TOS. He didn't like the fact that you always KNEW that Adama was right, and you always KNEW that the Council of Twelve were wrong.

I just happpened on this thead again. And I hope Mustex is still here.

I thought of some stuff on this when I glanced this thread.About Adama never being wrong.

Adama was the idiot who made Sire Uri a Counsel of the 12 member. There is also alot of doubt that was going on regarding him in the pilot. He is not dealing well tih his choosing who lives or dies as they fled the colonies. And Apollo admonishes him in the episode. He's also seen as one step behind and almost unable to deal with the powerful Commander Cain. At least until he finally stands up and relieves him.

Though of course I agree with Moore's basic observation that in BG the good guys always were right, and they always won. But that's more typical of the tmes and if that BG ever returned today, it would be different. Also BG78 didn't have time to really get its feet planted and explore its own characters.

KJ · January 28th, 2005, 05:14 PM

Seems to me they won and lost. Lost Planet Of The Gods had a very hard hitting end, when a crewmate died in Serina; Apollo's wife. War Of The Gods had Apollo snuffing it too until the twist was the "SOL" beings regenerated him! Croft's wife died in his arms, Cain and the Pegasus disappeared after destroying two Cylon Basestars. so it wasn't clear whether or not she survived. So while it seems the good guys always won, they won at a heavy price!

And TV shows of the past, were quick to point out, that heroes always find it hard to do the right thing, weren't always bullet proof, and got hurt doing all those incredible things. To me, there more realism and grittyness in the old mentality of the classic TV shows than what passes for TV these days. sometimes all these gray area characters aren't nearly as deep as the well defined good and evil characters of the past.

It's good writing folks, not "lots of flawed full" characters and cigar chomp smoking girls thats rich and deep layed with character and drive. Ron Moore's observations are what he sees on the surface, if he looked again he'd see the richness the so-called 70's TV shows had. True Galactica didn't have time to explore itself properly.

Galactica would be different today. But as a continuation handled by Hatch or Singer/DeSanto? It would be more epic in scope and richer in it characters. More importantly it would build on what came before but introduce and explore new characters, concepts, stories ideas etc.

Sorry but Moore's mish mash isn't what i'd call a grand reinvention of Sci-Fi by any means. Let alone any pompus comments by him to the TOS about it's characters.

KJ

BST · January 28th, 2005, 05:49 PM

I'm picking this comment out of the bunch. No particular reason other than I have seen this same type of remark posted, in various threads.

Quote:

Galactica would be different today.

Now, a question, how so?

(KJ, I'm not picking on the remark.

)

I'm just interested in how folks would view Galactica TOS, if it returned today.

BST

Darth Marley · January 28th, 2005, 05:55 PM

I think the "good guys will always win" is the thrust of RDM's comments.
Yep, Stargate works the same way.

In BSG, the story starts with the good guys getting smacked down. In terms of how the original stories played out, there were some tough times, but not much despair, or at least, the despair was muted.

RDM's version may break that trend, but it may be too soon to tell. Odds are the good guys will eventually win, but will continue to get smacked down though much of the story.

I don't think that there is any hostility to military in general. I have heard opposite opinions, especially from those in active duty, but the military is made up of imperfect (flawed) humans like any other organization.

Titon · January 28th, 2005, 06:24 PM

The new series pilot helmets cost 50k each. The reason being is they needed to be air conditioned so they would not fog up during filming.

I know this cause i seen one up close and personal at Zoic studios.

KJ · January 28th, 2005, 07:55 PM

Still thats alot of Moolah isn't it! didn't somebody from here, hear that and say they know of somebody who could have done it for less? 50K alot of money for one Helmet.

We've seen a mock up of Singer's helmet. It had the Egyptian design to it. Wonder if they had a completed version done and how much, several of those have cost the Singer/ DeSanto production? 50K for a helmet? no wonder i've been hearing how The mini and TNS aren't showing the machine Cylons per se.

Funds that could have gone into the FX department went elsewhere. I'm sure i'm not the only one to have pointed this out! Tsk tsk, seems alot of decision making wasn't handled to good doing the TNS Galactica was it?

Starfury helmets on Babylon 5 didn't steam up causing actors faces to be cloudy? hmmm!

Ron, another boo boo huh.

KJ

crash4587 · January 29th, 2005, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Kingjason

We've seen a mock up of Singer's helmet. It had the Egyptian design to it. Wonder if they had a completed version done and how much, several of those have cost the Singer/ DeSanto production? 50K for a helmet? no wonder i've been hearing how The mini and TNS aren't showing the machine Cylons per se.

KJ

I have never seen Singer's Helmet. Is it online?

martok2112 · January 30th, 2005, 01:23 AM

I wonder if the helmets we see in the BSG Videogame are based on Singer's/DeSanto's designs?

Respectfully,
Martok2112

jewels · January 30th, 2005, 08:52 PM

I don't recall seeing DeSanto/Singer's helmet design either. And I actually held the Boomer costume design drawing and the new pilot uniform drawing in my hand for a few minutes.

I can tell you their uniform had some stitching detailing on the inside of the knee above the boot that reminded me of the knee patching on equestrian britches (sort of reminiscent of a calvary uniform). The new jackets were trimmer and straighter, but Boomer would've retained his classic flight jacket. They did retain the khaki and brown of the old uniforms too. I don't remember the helmet, though I sort of remember that some castings had started on some of the pieces. Might have been Cylon armor though. When CA gets back up, if photos existed of the helmets, they'd be in Sandy's DeSanto articles or be referenced there.

KJ · January 31st, 2005, 12:34 PM

Quote:

I have never seen Singer's Helmet. Is it online?

Yep. By "Global Effects". Cylon.org has them. And yes i agree with martok looks like the design is soo similar in the BG game, don't know if it's directly related but the features of the Viper helmets are more or less the same. Except the Video game ones look like they've added a glass visor ala; face mask to it. Like the TNS ones.

Some fans here might have seen the DeSanto Colonial Warrior Jacket designs at Galacticon and tons of unreleased material. But i can't comment on that issue (really wish i could) only ask like another passion Galactica fan, if anybody can put the designs up. Should DeSanto cough up any more BG 2001 stuff and keep us interested.

KJ

KJ · January 31st, 2005, 12:42 PM

Hate to say but even the G80 ones looked kinda cool in the stylish sense. Ebay even had a silver one i.e. unpainted version. They made new ones cos the older ones were to big and moved around a little. The biker ones they introduced on G80, were small motorbike helmets that were more rounded and fit better.

From what i've heard!

Silver or gold the egyptian style helmets were always better and fit in with the mythological aspects of the series which all the motifs were meant to play upon. Pity Moore didn't play into those aspects, TNS might have gain more mystic about it then.

KJ

Fragmentary · February 1st, 2005, 01:54 AM

I like the G80 helmets as well. They always seemed like a good evolution from the original helmet. Similar design and style but much better fitting. Am I wrong, or did they actually only show up in one episode of 80?

KJ · February 1st, 2005, 01:21 PM

First and last appearence is in Space Croppers. Imperious Leader (Take it he is new cos he didn't have MacNee's voiceover) Order's an attack on the Colonial Fleet's Agroships. It's then we get to see the new Viper Helmets. "Daggit Squadron"* (Adama's new elite tactical wing corps is mentioned*) Would be interesting if they were to be seen again.

Doesn't out do the original, but it's got a nice design to it.

KJ

Fragmentary · February 1st, 2005, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Kingjason

First and last appearence is in Space Croppers. Imperious Leader (Take it he is new cos he didn't have MacNee's voiceover) Order's an attack on the Colonial Fleet's Agroships. It's then we get to see the new Viper Helmets. "Daggit Squadron"* (Adama's new elite tactical wing corps is mentioned*) Would be interesting if they were to be seen again.

Doesn't out do the original, but it's got a nice design to it.

KJ

Daggit Squadron sported a grey and black version of the new style helmet right? That could suggest that elsewhere in the fleet there were alternate colors for the original style helmets as well. Or maybe, Daggit Squadron was some sort of elite viper wing. Might be an interesting story to find out who created them and for what reason. Maybe a new squadron from a run in with another surviving Battlestar?