Kara Thrace - Starbuck or Sheba?

I have a question for those of you who enjoyed the SCIFI Battlestar Galactica miniseries:

Do you think that the character of Kara Thrace is actually based on the TOS character of Sheba as opposed to the more common belief that she is based on Starbuck as a result of her callsign?

Here's my thinking on the subject:

The miniseries and the future series is an attempt to make a darker, grittier and in many ways more realistic version of TOS. By realistic I imply that Moore is trying to model the colonial experience to reflect a greater alignment with modern American military and civilian society.

In the American military it is not now proper for a son or daughter to serve under the command of his or her parent. It is for this reason that I believe that Lee Adama was brought on board the Galactica not as a member of the crew but as a visiting pilot from another unit there only for a ceremony. If we are to get Sheba onto the Galactica at some point in Moore's universe how would we get her there? In an American based military system there would not be a daughter of a Commander Caine serving on the same Battlestar under his command. The TOS Sheba character therefor can not be on board the Battlestar Pegasus in a future Moore episode. You put her on the Galactica from the start.

Sheba was introduced as a brash and arrogant viper pilot in her first episode in TOS. She was described as Commander Caine's best pilot. Kara Thrace also was introduced as a brash and arrogant viper pilot. Commander Adama describes Kara Thrace as the best pilot on the Galactica.

After Serena's death Sheba seems to evolve into the friend and potential love interest of Apollo. Without Serena in the mini, Kara Thrace has already assummed the role of Lee Adama's friend and potential love interest.

Sheba was taken under the wing of TOS Adama. She was treated by him like a member of his family. We already see that Kara Thrace has a special relationship to Commander Adama. The issues with Zak seem to have made her into something closer to an in law relationship then simply that of Commander and subordinant.

Moore in my judgement seems to have intentionally patterned his series to emulate the relationships we see in the later episodes of TOS. What we see in my opinion between Lee Adama and Kara Thrace is based on the relationship of Apollo and Sheba.

If there is someone with the call sign Sheba on the Battlestar Pegasus in a future Moore episode I highly doubt she will be the daughter of Commander and so long as Kara Thrace is alive any future Sheba will find the TOS Sheba role already filled.

Potential opening scene in Moore's episode "Living Legend":

As Kara Thrace and Lee Apollo return from a long range patrol under heavy cylon attack with little hope of reaching the Galactica suddenly vipers appear from nowhere to save them. With the help of the additional vipers they destroy their cylon pursuers. Lee says, "I burned a lot of fuel in the fight. I don't know if I can make it back to the Galactica." A viper pilot from the group that rescued them say, "Follow us. You can land on the Pegasus. We thought we were the only ones left. " Kara Thrace interrupts, "The Pegasus? It can't be? Is my father alive?" The Pegasus viper pilot says, "When we get back we can check his name on the personnel data base. Who is your father?" Kara Thrace replies, "He was the Commander of the Pegasus, Commander Caine Thrace." The Pegasus viper pilot replies, "Your father has been keeping us alive since this war started. He is alive, in command, and you will be seeing him soon."

The mini had no TOS character sex changes. It simply had some name changes as part of a marketing gimmick.

[Eric Paddon]

"The mini had no TOS character sex changes. It simply had some name changes as part of a marketing gimmick."

Sorry Antelope, but that argument just does not wash with me. This character has absolutely no resemblance to Sheba, and was designed to blatantly become a female Starbuck in every way, right down to a weak Dirk Benedict imitation in her first extended scene. Until I see a cut scene from TOS that shows Sheba smoking and being devoid of her femininity, that argument has no case IMO.

[LucianG]

antelope,

You've put together an interesting theory, with some good points, but I'm with Eric. In addition to his points, RDM claimed that he only watched the original pilot episode before he wrote the pilot, so he wouldn't have seen the Sheba character, though I suppose he could have had some memory of her from the original series (IF he watched it at all when it came out, which I doubt). Whatever his intent, he's now turned the BG-03 Starbuck character into what I see as a very unsympathetic character, and if he ever decides to introduce a Sheba character, we may end up with a twisted Starbuck-Cassie-Athena type triangle with Apollo in the center.

L

[LucianG]

Also, I forgot to note the Boomer sex-change. I'm not sure who Boomer would have equated to from the original series with this theory, but considering she was a Cylon, RDM went so far off the ranch as to make the question meaningless anyway.

[jewels]

As shown so far, the character lacks the grace of both. Sheba was a warrior AND a fine lady (much like the one who played her). Starbuck (not Kara) had qualities that I'm not sure the producers can even fathom: they are so hung up on the disfunction and flaws of humanity that they fail to see the strength that we have in reaching beyond what we think we can achieve, or in reaching out in the protective stance of a warrior guarding his people, when it costs every ounce of our own self-preservation.

Anne herself said that at least Sheba hadn't been reimaged.

Antelope, the characters are deliberately twisted shallow caricatures of the originals because that was the execs subliminal agenda. You've proven it's a remake of "In Harm's Way" convincingly. This line of rationalizing I just don't go with. Kara simply has none of the winning female qualities of Sheba. And Sheba had none of the obnoxious rebellion of Kara.

Originally Posted by LucianG

Also, I forgot to note the Boomer sex-change. I'm not sure who Boomer would have equated to from the original series with this theory, but considering she was a Cylon, RDM went so far off the ranch as to make the question meaningless anyway.

My original question is primarily asked to Galactica fans who like the mini or at least have an open mind to comparisons between the mini and TOS. I respect the opinions of all Galactica fans but have found that the vast majority of people who dislike the mini can not discuss any aspect of the mini with an open mind or through a positive light including the trivial. I think the question I ask goes to the heart however of the question of whether Moore's universe is or is not in the spirit of Battlestar Galactica. Those who already decided it is not won't see such things regardless of whether it exist or not. I think perception is often shaped by what we want to see. (Maybe I want to see a link --- that's an open minded thought!)

Boomer is an interesting question and again I think there really is no sex change but another name change marketing gimmick. Mini Boomer is based on TOS Athena. How are they alike:

Both Athena and mini-Boomer are ethnically as the American census forms say Asian/Pacific Islander in origin. They are both dark haired beauties!

Both were the original love interest of the strong fan popular woman chasing male character (TOS Starbuck-CPO Tyrol). Athena became involved in a love triangle competing against Cassiopeia. We already see the ground work being laid for mini-Boomers love triangle competition against the blond beauty this time named Calley (Calley and Cassie--names are very close even).

Both Athena and Mini-Boomer became the mother figure to Boxey after the death of his mother.

Both Athena and mini-Boomer were warriors but neither served as viper pilots. The change to reflect the American military put mini-Boomer on a differnent type craft but her military role is pretty much the same.

Jewels mentioned that Sheba is not feminine enough to her to be Sheba. I mention that many people including anti-mini TOS fans will say they didn't like the Sheba character as introduced in "Living Legend" because of her arrogant ways. I have read many times TOS fans say Sheba "grew" on them as her character was toned down and feminized.

The concept of the human cylon comes out of BSG1980 and is a natural outgrowth of what TOS Adama (or was it Apollo?) said in reference to why the cylons imitate human form in their robotic forms.

You can find pretty much all the character roles and relationships in the mini in the later TOS episodes. I am not saying they are identical. There is a goal to darken the show (Larson's original wish also) and make it more in tune with "realism" but the characters are a lot closer to TOS than many can or want to see. I would love to discuss this with those willing to look, which are primarily mini-fans. For those that have the blinders on don't worry I hope to talk with you about the Continuation if it ever comes. My Dad just told me he is getting the DVD box set for Father's Day from his wife so I think the whole extended family will be watching a lot more Battlestar Galactica very soon!

[thomas7g]

Lucian- he could always make a few characters gay.




regarding Thrace ... I dunno. I think we bag too much on the negative. Any character can be redeemed. Its true I don't like her as is. But its a different series entirely. Its not BG. And if they do ALOT of work, they can make her interesting. I kinda understand where Moore wants to go on her. I just think she came out too butch. But how she ends up depends on the writers. Look at Major Margarite HotLips Houlihan on Mash. Her character did a 180 in terms of depth. And really became noble as a result. Charles Emerson Winchester III was a poumpous winbag. But as time went on, he got so many wonderfully noble poignant scenes that you really ended up loving the character. I know alot of this will be despised by us old guards, AND i KNOW PEOPLE WILL DISLIKE ME FOR THIS OPINION. But really, whether this character becomes noble or stays despised is all dependent on the writing of future episodes.

but regarding the original topic. I think she definitely came from the original starbuck. Its just very very altered. And we are seeing alot of Katey in the new Starbuck. I also agree that Moore didn't know enough about BG at the time to base her on anyone else. Or even cared to look at the rest of the show.


oops... I just noticed I reedited a sentence and made it caps....grrr... I am still adapting to this new keyboard. Oh how I wish I could go back in time and THWACK the guy who came up with qwerty!

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by thomas7g

I am still adapting to this new keyboard. Oh how I wish I could go back in time and THWACK the guy who came up with qwerty!

I had no idea what qwerty was so I had to look it up....

Pronounced kwer-tee, refers to the arrangement of keys on a standard English computer keyboard or typewriter. The name derives from the first six characters on the top alphabetic line of the keyboard.



The arrangement of characters on a QWERTY keyboard was designed in 1868 by Christopher Sholes, the inventor of the typewriter. According to popular myth, Sholes arranged the keys in their odd fashion to prevent jamming on mechanical typewriters by separating commonly used letter combinations. However, there is no evidence to support this assertion, except that the arrangement does, in fact, inhibit fast typing. With the emergence of ball-head electric typewriters and computer keyboards, on which jamming is not an issue, new keyboards designed for speed typing have been invented. The best-known is called a Dvorak keyboard. Despite their more rational designs, these new keyboards have not received wide acceptance.

[Eric Paddon]

Sorry Antelope, but disliking the miniseries as I do, does not equate lack of an "open mind" on the question you posed. I made my judgment exactly on what I saw, and what I saw was someone doing a blatant imitiation of Dirk Benedict's mannerisms in her first extended scene right down to the prop cigar, and whether you like the miniseries or not, that is not characteristic of Sheba's behavior, it is a blatant attempt to give us a female Starbuck in every last little detail.

Ron Moore's towering ignorance of the original series is something he long since fessed up to before the miniseries aired and it totally lacks credibility that he had any recollection of Sheba at all given that all he watched was the hacked down pilot episode before he put his thoughts to paper. That factor needs to be considered as well, and that too is just making note of an objective fact when forming a judgment, rather than reading something into it that isn't there, which it seems to me is where the whole "female Starbuck is Sheba" argument stems from (and in what I would consider to be a not so open-minded attempt on the part of those who like the miniseries to grasp for straws in looking for linkage to the original series in areas where it isn't there).

[jewels]

Psst. Eric it wasn't a prop cigar. Real one. Actually made her sick. Can't think of a better reason to drop the cigar from the character than that, can you?

Dirk really smokes them. (A thought which makes my husband turn green when he notices it in a scene. ) But since he smokes them himself, and is the gender that's expected to engage in said vice, he's more convincing at it, where I just find Kara (and any woman with a cigar) offensive. I'm biased. Hate smoking & smoke. Nothing worse than a woman with a cigar. Yucky.

Katee does have my sympathies if she continues to have to "smoke those stinking weeds".

[thomas7g]

I don't think its grasping at straws. Not at all. We've all talked of how Sheba was already a female warrior. This is all just fun lighthearted, no agenda talk.

Though like I said, I don't see any connections. And I should also probably add the legal rights to Battlestar Galactica were hotly fought over in court. And the rights to Sheba, Cain and Pegasus may be something that Universal may still have to be legally acquired. I'm guessing, but the original contract was for a pilot, then extended for a 3hour pilot and 2 2-hour episodes of Battlestar Galactica. So The Living Legend maaaay be a seperate addition to that contract where Larson's bargaining rights were stronger. And I also have heard that he did have creator's right to those characters clearly laid out before the rights to the show itself was settled in court.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by jewels

where I just find Kara (and any woman with a cigar) offensive. I'm biased. Hate smoking & smoke. Nothing worse than a woman with a cigar. Yucky.

I hate cigarettes but I do like to smoke the occasional cigar

[Dawg]

I have been contemplating posting in this thread at all, considering my well-known disdain for the RDM production. But I find myself very much in agreement with Tom on this - and I'll take the thought a step further.

Yes, parts of the character of Kara Thrace appear based on Starbuck, not Sheba (not at all on Sheba - any link there, Antelope, is all in your mind). But Kara Thrace portrays the worst, most superficial aspects of Starbuck as Dirk Benedict portrayed him.

When we are introduced to Starbuck in the 1978 premier, his first scene portrays an act of cameraderie and compassion for a younger warrior. His next scenes (after the card game) are battle scenes, and we see his shock and anger. We are introduced to his irreverence, his "appreciation" of women, his live-for-the-moment attitude - but we also know exactly where his heart is. He's a loyal and loving friend willing to put his own life on the line for another. We learned this in three short hours.

Kara Thrace is a bitch. Period. And that's all we learn of her in four long hours.

That may change as the series progresses, as Tom suggests - it all depends on the writing and storytelling. But if all we come away with in four hours is that, it doesn't bode well.

Antelope, you keep trying to show links between the two productions you know full well do not exist - you yourself proved that the RDM production is a space-based remake of the John Wayne/Kirk Douglas movie "In Harm's Way". The leaps you seem to want to be making are ludicrous, frankly - you cannot have the same relationships between characters if you don't have the same characters to begin with. This is a basic logic that seems to escape you.

You're trying too hard to bring the two together. It can't be done. They are far too different.

I have spoken.

I am
Dawg

[thomas7g]

you're right Jewels. Dirk is alot more comfortable looking with a cigar in hand.

As for Katee, keep the cigar smoking. Let her "deal with it" lol. Its nothing big. But well... she wanted this. Let her have it! I think CFF should raise money to buy her the strongest cigars on the planet. And mail them to the production so she can smoke them in every scene.

[CommanderTaggart]

Who's Katee Sackhoff?

[thomas7g]

Oh just a poor starving actress who's dying for a few good fumerellos but can't afford them.

[jewels]

tommy! heeheheheheehehehe

Sorry antelope, we kinda thrashed your thread, but the logic wasn't there this time.

[LucianG]

antelope526 wrote:

My original question is primarily asked to Galactica fans who like the mini or at least have an open mind to comparisons between the mini and TOS. I respect the opinions of all Galactica fans but have found that the vast majority of people who dislike the mini can not discuss any aspect of the mini with an open mind or through a positive light including the trivial.

Italics added for emphasis.

As an reasonably intelligent individual, I can discuss, debate, and constructively support either side of most issues of which I have some degree of familiarity. I think most people who frequent this board could probably do the same. Whether we choose to do so, of course, may be another matter.

In this case, as I've said, while I didn't like the mini-series, there are aspects of it that had some interest to me. Unlike the original series, the Starbuck character wasn't one of them exactly because of the numerous changes, including chromosonal. RDM may have stolen a few aspects of the Sheba character in writing the new Starbuck, but those are largely by chance rather than design (female, great pilot, feelings for Apollo). Rather than go on (since it's bedtime!), jewels' first post in this thread was a very nice summary.

My request for mini-fans isn't a slight I am just curious, do those who liked the mini see this or am a lone wolf in the area. Unfortunately mini-fans seem in short supply these past days. Thanks however for the interesting answers especially from Tom, Jewels, and Lucian.

On the "In Harm's Way" subject. I look at "In Harm's Way" being the basis for the mini in a similar way to how I look at the Dirty Dozen and the Guns of Navarrone being the basis for Gun On Ice Planet Zero and Patton and Midway being the basis for Living Legend. There is definitely a strong similarity especially to "In Harm's Way" but I still think they are Galactica characters in all episodes.

I would be curious if the Commander Caine type figure that will supposedly appear in the series will turn out to be Kara Thrace's father.

Since I do think Moore is familiar with TOS far more than he admits and his more recent interviews increasingly allude to it I wonder if anyone outside of me sees TOS based characters in some of the less contreversial roles.

Is President Roslin based on TOS Siress Tinia?

Is Gaeta based on TOS Omega?

Omega always seemed an undeveloped character in TOS with a lot of potential. Siress Tinia on the other hand had the potential to become a major character if her role was continued in a TOS season 2. I see President Roslin showing us where the Siress Tinia character might have gone.

As a Moore and Galactica optimist I am hoping to see familiar themes in the new series. Anyone want to bet $10 we get the Tyrol, Boomer, Callie love triangle I predict (because Moore is copying Starbuck, Athena, Cassiopeia)?

For those that think I see everything the same as TOS I also predict that Boxey is a cylon in a Moore version!

[Eric Paddon]

Antelope, your use of the term "based" I think is the real problem, because it presumes a knowlege of the original series that Moore simply put, does not possess. He has admitted what he did and did not watch in the last 25 years before he started writing, and we might as well just leave it at that.

If Moore really knew more about the series than he admits to, he wouldn't have forgotten about the role Athena played in the series, nor would he have cribbed from Planet Of The Apes by using the term "Sacred Scrolls" rather than "Book Of The Word", to name just a couple examples.

Fans of the miniseries who like these characters are going to have to like them for what they are ultimately: Total originals except for female Starbuck who was blatantly done in a way designed to call attention to the original male version.

[thomas7g]

Have to agree with that main point. Whatever similarity there is between Roslin or Gaeta and a TOS character has little to do with referencing the original.

Gaeta is just your typical bridge personel. Like Uhura or Sulu. You have a captain, and the guys who go "YES SIR!". Just like when you do a show with fighter craft it isn['t unusual to have a mechanic. Even though the original didn't have one. Shows like Baa Baa Black Sheep did.

Roslin is just a female polition. I think she owes more to the evolution of women's roles in soceity then to what really was a minor guest character in the old show. Its only natural to make a president character and to add that female twsit to the concept now. So maybe she owes more to Captain Janeway than Siress Tinia.

Good take on President Roslin, although I do think whether intentionally or by coincidence she does have a lot in common with the character of Siress Tinia. Whether by intention or accident Moore did seem to shoe horn one seasons worth of TOS character end state development into the mini. I just have been coming around after much thought to believe this has to be more than coincidence. Since I seem to be coming to that conclusion I notice statements Moore makes in his interviews that seem to confirm he has a much greater grasp of TOS than we generally believe. Minor things like Paddon' mention of scrolls versus books are the kinds of minor mistakes any one including a fan could make. In TOS we have many examples of problems with colonial word usage but I don't thing anyone would say Larson didn't know TOS.

I guess I see that there is a continuum of continuity. No matter how much one dislikes the mini you can't honestly say there is nothing from TOS in the mini. Some things are obvious like we still have a Battlestar named Galactica. We still have 12 colonies and a quest for the thirteenth. We still have fighters that are called and recognizably vipers. The cylons still destroy the colonies and all the other Battlestars. We still have a rag tag fleet. The human that causes the downfall is still named Baltar. We still have a Commander Adama and a Colonel Tigh. You can go down the list if you are objective. I am sure if you wrote out a master list of every fact about the mini versus TOS you would find that the mini is definitely Battlestar Galactica TOS based but whether it is 25% or 75% TOS is a subjective view.

I just speculate that Moore may have held truer to TOS than many people think. I see a lot of things that may be coincidence or just maybe is TOS coming through. I also think that it is fairly reasonable to believe that if Larson wanted to make his darker more adult version of TOS he could in one episode have brought TOS up to speed to wear Moore is today. Here is an example of a scene from episode one of TOS season 2 that could easily bridge a large part of the gap:

Siress Tinia enters Adamas quarters.

Tinia: "Adama we need to talk about returning the military to the control of the colonial civilian authority. You still reconize that the Council of 12 is the legitamate government"

Adama: "Now that so much time has passed and our people have been through so much we need to talk about things that I have thus far kept to myself. The people must have hope."

Tinia: "I know they must have hope but we need to move to normalcy. The wishes of the people as expressed by the Council of 12 must be respected."

Adama: "You don't understand but you must if we are to survive. I am a religious man but I have always lived in reality. I have tried to be the face of hope and optimism for our people but I have been plagued by doubts I dare not utter. If something was to happen to me someone has to know the reality of our situation. I have read the sacred words of the Lord's of Kobol and believe in my heart there was an Earth once upon a time but the reality is I have no idea where it lay. I had hope that Terra was Earth but it seems it is not. Or maybe it was once upon a time but now their world is as hostile as the ones we fled. We need to move on to put time and distance between us and the cylons. Maybe we will be in space for a generation or more. I doubt we will ever find Earth but the people must believe it is there so we don't start fighting among ourselves."

Tinia: "So this is your secret. There is no Earth."

Adama: "There's more. We discovered soon after the fall of the colonies that the cylons have a model that appears in human form. This is our closest garded secret. Only myself, Colonel Tigh, and Captain Apollo, and now you knows. We can not let everyone become a suspect. Fear would spread throughout the fleet. It is for this very reason we must keep military and civilian control separate. I trust my inner circle of warriors I have known for many yahrnen before the halocaust but the members of the council as you know are mostly people we did not know before our exodus. I am lucky our own families knew each other in our youth on Caprica or I probably wouldn't trust you. The burden of this knowledge is great. I think it is taking a toll on Colonel Tigh."

Tinia: "Now things seem so much clearer. We will confide in each other. I will hold your secrets. I think we now have an understanding. The council will control things social and you will control things military. As President of the quorum if the question ever arises I will say I approved or suggested whatever military path we take."

Adama: "I fear the dark times have only begun. I pray we are both up to the tasks ahead."

[thomas7g]

There are alot of the same elements. Its undeniable uses the basic BG story elements. But the reason why we say its a different show cause the heart of the original isn't there. What equally made it BG, besides the vipers and cylons, were the cameraderie and sense of family and simply a sense of fun.

So right now its apples and oranges. Both have rinds. Both have seeds. Both are plants that you eat. They ain't metallic. They aint purple. They don't run on batteries. They both thrive under sunlight and both rot if you leave them out for too long. They have alot of similarities but they both taste different. And its not something people mistake one for another.

There is nothing wrong with seeing the shows as similiar. There is nothing wrong with seeing the shows as completely different. Both points have valid arguements. I think its up to individual preferences how you see it.

Though personally, I prefer oranges. And this new show does feel completely foreign to me.

[Eric Paddon]

By your own admission Antelope, you are only engaging in speculation when you make assumptions about Moore supposedly knowing more about TOS, and frankly I don't think that kind of assumption is particularly helpful when the documented record shows otherwise. This is coming off as an attempt to make the square peg fit in the round hole, and no matter how much you try to hammer it in, it still does not fit. The point I made about "Book Of The Word" is mentioned in multiple episodes, and would stick in the mind a lot more than one obscure character in a subpar episode of the series that we know Moore didn't watch ("Baltar's Escape") would for those with a general familiarity with the series.

You keep making the presumption your take is "objective" but frankly all I'm seeing is a rather unobjective determination to make things fit in a way that can somehow make the miniseries less distasteful to those of us who watched it and saw that any similiarities to TOS are most definitely purely coincidental.

[Eric Paddon]

One other thing, Antelope. This speculative "Season 2" bit between Tinia and Adama you constructed to try and draw parallels to Moore could never have happened in a legit second season. Earth's reality is made clear in several episodes, "Lost Planet Of The Gods", "The Long Patrol", "War Of The Gods" and "Experiment In Terra" (and here I am talking about direct knowledge revealed to the characters and not something they miss like the Apollo XI signal in "Hand Of God").

Adama pursues this goal because he has faith, and he has seen that faith borne out. I think it's laughable to suggest that anything resembling the Roslin-Adama conversation could have happened in the real Galactica universe unless one takes Moore's approach of not paying attention to what happened.

I am a Battlestar fan and didn't catch or notice the scroll versus word thing. I bet outside of the internet fan world few people would. Although some say the interviews of Moore show a man with little knowledge of TOS, I read the same interviews and see a man with a lot of knowledge who is trying not to reveal where he is going. Only time will tell if other TOS themes come through. Of course since they won't be identical those who don't want to see it will say it isn't there but that is up to subjective opinion.

Some suggest that Commander Adama from the mini does believe Earth exist but doesn't trust President Roslin. His statement may have been something more than a straight forward admission. It is to early to tell.

The love triangle potential is speculation but if it does appear it would be a large TOS subplot.

I was amazed that so many TOS fans were upset initially with many PC aspects of the mini like the female President and female warriors when they were all in TOS. It just seems that so many fans who know the episodes backwards and forwards forget whole characters and themes once a name is changed.

I make no claim to the mini being identical to TOS. It certainly isn't. I just see a lot of familiar stories. I can even remember an evil figure who took human form in TOS in an attempt to destroy the Galactica and the colonist from within. His name was Count Iblis. The enemy within theme is not unique to the mini, or just to BG1980 with the human cylon episode, but was right there in TOS. Whether by coincidence or inspiration many of the best themes of TOS are in Moore's universe. I'm sorry many can't or won't see the homage but I plan to enjoy the show so long as the stories are good.

Any mini-fans out there? How about the original question?

[BST]

Originally Posted by antelope526

Only time will tell if other TOS themes come through. Of course since they won't be identical those who don't want to see it will say it isn't there but that is up to subjective opinion.

Why is it important, or necessary, for "TOS themes ( to ) come through" ? Moore's show is decidedly different from TOS in many ways and, as such, does not need to draw parallels to TOS, in order to attract viewers, or does it?

Originally Posted by antelope526

I was amazed that so many TOS fans were upset initially with many PC aspects of the mini like the female President and female warriors when they were all in TOS. It just seems that so many fans who know the episodes backwards and forwards forget whole characters and themes once a name is changed.

You may still be amazed to know that you are dead wrong on this! TOS fans were not "upset" about female warriors, or a female President. Speaking for myself, I was upset with the blatant cross-casting of a male character from TOS as a female character in the mini, strictly for name recognition. Arguments can be made that the "rogue, swashbuckling, renegade, male, cigar-chomping, womanizing" character portrayed by Dirk Benedict is dated; however, arguments can also be made that the type of character portrayed by Katee Sackhoff is nothing new.

As far as the "female President" issue, was not the "Presidency" of the Quorum rotated amongst all the members of that group? In those types of groups, it is not uncommon for the Presdiency/Chairpersonship to be rotated on a regular basis (monthly/quarterly). Look at the European Union (EU) as an example.

Originally Posted by antelope526

I make no claim to the mini being identical to TOS. It certainly isn't. I just see a lot of familiar stories. I can even remember an evil figure who took human form in TOS in an attempt to destroy the Galactica and the colonist from within. His name was Count Iblis. The enemy within theme is not unique to the mini, or just to BG1980 with the human cylon episode, but was right there in TOS. Whether by coincidence or inspiration many of the best themes of TOS are in Moore's universe. I'm sorry many can't or won't see the homage but I plan to enjoy the show so long as the stories are good.

It's sad to see that someone who claimed to be at the cusp of "re-inventing science fiction" would need to cull so many "familiar" themes, icons, events, characters, places, etc, from the original show. Perhaps the original show was not as bad, as we were led to believe by those who apparently know more than this quite average science fiction fan.

Your mention of Count Iblis (and his assumption of human form) is interesting. Considering that the Beings of Light also assumed human form and were "at war" with Iblis says to me that perhaps the untold story about Battlestar Galactica was that the Colonials and Cylons were fighting a proxy war between the two superpowers. It would have been most interesting to see how that particular story arc would have played out.


Finally, antelope, if the Moore show pleases you and if you enjoy drawing parallels between it and TOS, by all means, more power to you. However, I think that it's a bit presumptious and unfair of you to paint those who disliked the show with such a broad brush of intolerance or close-mindedness. We simply did not enjoy the show -- there are many reasons for this. We have only touched on a few in this thread.

BST

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by antelope526

I am a Battlestar fan and didn't catch or notice the scroll versus word thing. I bet outside of the internet fan world few people would.

Someone who presumes to be as well read on TOS as you keep trying to suggest Ron Moore is, would.

Originally Posted by antelope526

Although some say the interviews of Moore show a man with little knowledge of TOS, I read the same interviews and see a man with a lot of knowledge who is trying not to reveal where he is going.

He said which episodes he had watched in the last 25 years. The sum total was one and a half episodes and that includes a badly cut down version of the pilot film. That's the information one should go on before making assumptions.

Originally Posted by antelope526

I was amazed that so many TOS fans were upset initially with many PC aspects of the mini like the female President and female warriors when they were all in TOS. It just seems that so many fans who know the episodes backwards and forwards forget whole characters and themes once a name is changed..

Antelope, when were any of us ever upset over "female warriors?" Not me. And I don't think it's a case of us forgetting things, I think it's a case of a miniseries defender trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole.

Originally Posted by antelope526

I can even remember an evil figure who took human form in TOS in an attempt to destroy the Galactica and the colonist from within. His name was Count Iblis. The enemy within theme is not unique to the mini, or just to BG1980 with the human cylon episode, but was right there in TOS.

Except that now you're forgetting the deeper religious subtext of Iblis, which is NOT in the miniseries because the miniseries has no use for any of the religious subtext, and the idea of Iblis, the Devil, being responsible for the creation of the Cylon race that started the war. Without that subtext, there is no legit parallel in the miniseries with Iblis.

[julix]

I have to say well said Eric and BST............Antelope, Most of us die-hard Tos fans were not upset at female warriors because as you said there were strong female warriors/characters in TOS. Speaking for me..........what upset me the most is that Ron Moore and the"powers that be" used the BSG name to cash in on the fan base(i.e. ratings) without considering what the majority of that fan base wants. A continuation with as many original actors as possible. I don't see the mini as PC the you did... I see what you are trying to say but I just don't see all the gratuitous sex that way. The original was such a family show. As for Starbuck, and Boomer they were characters I loved and you don't go in and change it to the point they did. It would be like making James T. Kirk a woman or Han Solo a woman etc...........It just isn't the same and it souldn't be messed with as far as I am concerned. I am not a very good writer so this probably isn't comming out good.

[Senmut]

This character has as much in common with Sheba as a cheap Polaroid of a tart does with Boticelli's Birth of Venus.