A Few Thoughts

[peter noble]

Well what a to do. The past two weeks have been quite extraordinary.

Extraordinary because we’ve seen something we’ve never seen before, Universal reaching out to us for our opinion.

Well we’ve told them, and now the ball is in their court, but if they think we’re just going to settle down and make life easy for them for the time being, then they’re sadly mistaken!

From the various things that have been said here and elsewhere it would seem TPTB are finally realising the potential of their property Battlestar Galactica, something we’ve known for nearly 25 years and yet this idea has only just found it’s way into what passes for the brain of a ‘suit’.

Every studio is looking for the next big franchise and Universal had one right under their nose the whole time!

Still, we are left with the question: what are TPTB going to do with the franchise?

Are they going to carry on with their reimagination plans and go for the short term money -making option, if there is any money to be made in this option, when it is despised by its core audience, those people who don’t post on BSG bboards but can be bothered to sign a petition calling for the return of the original stars (16,000+) people, and the people around the whole world who at least remember the show with some affection: “yeah, that show with Face from the A-Team in and those robots with eyes like KITT from Knight Rider”.

A reimagination in my opinion (this is not a remake, a remake would stay 85-95% close to GAL and Leslie Stevens’ pilot script and you’d just have different actors in the parts) would be, and seems to be like the recent Planet of the Apes film, sure it made money, but you’re not going to see a sequel anytime soon (no extra cash for Fox), it did not replace the original in the affections of the moviegoing public and was generally derided by anyone with a brain who saw it. It is undoubtedly Tim Burton’s worst film (and I like Tim Burton films), the ending of said film sent the audience I watched it with into fits of laughter!

Yes RDM’s script has the basics of the BSG story just like the Apes movie, but like that film it has none of the depth that makes BSG what it is – its likeable heroes/role models, extended family, spirituality and a sense of hope in dark times. All things which people still need today. People who’ve not watched BSG for 25 years might tune in but I don’t think they will come back week after week to see something that is a shadow of the show they remember.

What if they do a prequel series? Well I voted for a prequel series in the TrekLord poll, because it preserves the original story and it will hopefully build on themes and references from the mythos of the original show and not just be an exercise in dotting the i(s) and crossing the t(s) but show us a story we only have rudimentary knowledge of. Also it still leaves room for a continuation series, another opportunity for TPTB to extend the franchise and make more green!

Still, I wouldn’t watch a prequel series if it did’nt have the qualities from the original that I mentioned above.

The chance of a continuation TV movie or series of movie has been bandied about from the various sources inside the black tower and this is the the one project the majority of fans are interested in, because after all these years of well, keeping the show alive really, we’ll finally get to see the continuing story we didn’t get in 1980.

Now many fans blindly see this as the Holy Grail, the light at the end of the tunnel, but if not done right, this too could suck as badly as RDM’s reimagination does!

A hurried project will not hit all the bases. You’ve got to have a good script. A good script is everything as we’ve all seen (or not seen) over the last couple of months.

You’ve got to have decent production values. This doesn’t mean a blank cheque btw! It means using your resources efficiently to get the maximum bang for your buck!

Not having the surviving BSG main cast involved would be like sending your team out onto the field with only half a side! Yes the majority of the original cast are middle-aged, but they still have all their faculties, and look good. And they would be joined by new cast members of all ages to truly reflect the saga of a family of man struggling to survive an epic journey across the stars.

Hollywood execs are blinkered by the youth sells formula, and to an extent they are right but youth is only one part of the television audience, the more people you can gear your show to, the more potential viewers you will have. The original Galactica was aimed at the typical midwestern family (if there is such a thing), a feat that it must have succeeded at judging by the ratings. No show is going to survive if you only just cater for one specific audience, yet you can’t just ignore that core audience.

So here we are – waiting. I for one don’t intend to spend this time sitting on my arse waiting for the next big announcement, we’ve come so far and fought for so long to rest on our laurels.

Keep on making your voices heard, ignore the trolls, they are a waste of your time and a distraction from our objective – for Battlestar Galactica to rise again and kick Trek’s ass!

NEVER GIVE UP. NEVER SURRENDER. I WANT MY BATTLESTAR GALACTICA!

Peter

[havoc315]

Originally posted by peter noble

Yes RDM’s script has the basics of the BSG story just like the Apes movie, but like that film it has none of the depth that makes BSG what it is – its likeable heroes/role models, extended family, spirituality and a sense of hope in dark times. All things which people still need today. People who’ve not watched BSG for 25 years might tune in but I don’t think they will come back week after week to see something that is a shadow of the show they remember.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, but now that I have read the script, I can more wholeheartedly disagree.

You state the remake does not have the depth of the original, but I find the script to have far more depth. The characters are more three-dimensional and complex, with human frailty and weakness. The motivations of the cylons are more complicated.

likeable heroes/role models: Again, totally disagree. As I read the script, I very much began to care for the protagonists. Yes, they have weaknesses not explored in the original characters, but that makes them more likeable: They overcome their weaknesses under extraordinary circumstances.

Extended family: The only extended family in the original was Adama and his two children. They have deleted Athena, and that does piss me off.

Spirituality: Having read the script, there is probably more spirituality in the RDM pilot than the original pilot.

Sense of Hope in Dark Times: That is the entire theme of the remake. The survivors of a nuclear holocaust. Furthermore, each individual character finds their own hope despite their own personal demons.

There are plenty of reasons why someone might dislike the remake. The strongest reason of course is if someone considers the original to be akin to the holy grail, and therefore does not want to see it spoiled in any way. I felt the same way when there was talk about remaking Casablanca a few years ago. But the fact is, this remake isn't being made for those hard core fans who consider the original to be a holy grail. You mention reaching out to the fans who are not hard core, but have affectionate feelings for the original. Most of the script reviews coming from those fans (but certainly not unanimous), is very positive.

All I'd say, is let's discuss the show on its merits. Don't say it lacks the depth of the original, or the spirituality, etc... which just does not seem to be true. Let's not start from the proposition that: I am against any remake, therefore I will find every possible criticism of the remake (whether or not the criticism is justified) and dislike everything about it. Similarly, people shouldn't say, "I am for the remake, and therefore I will make myself like everything about it."

[Stevew]

You still don't get it. If they go with a remake, call it something else, pretty simple. Go with a prequel call it a prequel, that would solve a lot of problems. Everything I have seen says it bears little resemblence to BSG so give it its own name. If it is as good as you are trying to convience people, does it not deserve its own name?
S

[Thomas P]

havoc315 sums up what I agree is the truth about Moore's script very well. There are a couple of minor faults in the plotting -- I think the opening scene is a dramatic misfire, and the much-debated Kara/Tigh fight is a cliche that ought to be avoided (as even the very positive review at AICN asserted). I entirely disagree with the reviews declaring the thing to be poorly written, dramatically inferior to the original BSG or revolving around unlikable weak characters.

That said, the only major fault to be found with Moore's script is that it's not at all what the dedicated fans of the original series want. There's simply no getting around that.

I don't think that Moore's declared intentions regarding the physical style of the production are particularly well-taken or likely to be successful but that, like all else here, is just IMAO.

[havoc315]

Steve....
Very simple....
The Batman movies of the 90's bore little resemblance to the campy Batman show of the 60's, should it have been called Batperson?
Smallville bears little resemblance to past Superman creations, should the characters be renamed Mark Trent and Rex Ruthor?

Re-naming would not solve any problems. If they renamed it Battleship Galactic with main characters Adara, Amollo and Starluck, you would not drop any of your objections. Instead, critics would start complaining, "they are ripping off BSG!"

So renaming would accomplish nothing except be silly. They are keeping the same names, many of the same ship designs, similar cylon designs, to appeal to the fans who affectionately remember the original series. As you read the reviews from those fans, it seems to be working! No, I'm not talking about the hardcore fans who consider the original BSG to be akin to the bible.

Finally, perhaps I'm misinterpretting what you're saying. What do you mean by change the name? Would you be happy if the script was used exactly as is, but they changed the name of the show to be "The New Adventure of the Battlestar Galactica"?

Would you drop your objections if they made such a change in the name?

[havoc315]

Dennis,

I actually liked the opening scene, but I think it will take good execution on screen. The Kara/Tigh fight is cliche, but it wasn't nearly as bad when I read it, compared to when I first heard about it. Under the circumstances, it is logical for Starbuck to not face charges.

But I agree there are definite flaws. From the almost opening, I think the tour guide is a clumsy plot device. In regards to Adama/Tigh/Starbuck, I didn't like Adama telling Tigh "either you're an XO or you're not." It was redundent and unnecessary and hopefully the line will get cut. There are other complaints as well, but as with these, they are fairly minor.

[Stevew]

That is your view and I disagree. You can't compare Batman movies to the tv Show. I like Smallville but it is Smallville and could be a templet for the Prequel.
"The New Adventure of the Battlestar Galactica"? I could live with that but I would want to see if the show could stand on its own. BSG fans are passionate like all fans and I think feel snubbed. If they go with a Prequel I would probably enjoy it because there is much in the begining that needs to be fleshed out. If successfull A continuation could then be done using input from the people who really love BSG.
If done right it could kill 2 stones with one bird, with some of the originals on board they don't have to be center stage, just there to provide stability a guide the next generation of hot shots. This way it could be taken in many directions that would satisify most BSG fans and keep the cheap sex out of it.
With out Richard and Dirk it could and would never be BSG and a large chunk will never get behind it
S

[Thomas P]

havoc315,

Do the attitudes aboard the Galactica in this script remind you of "From Here To Eternity"? That and the 1960s version of "Failsafe" came to mind as I was reading (I don't refer to Clooney's version because I didn't see it).

[havoc315]

Originally posted by Stevew
That is your view and I disagree. You can't compare Batman movies to the tv Show. I like Smallville but it is Smallville and could be a templet for the Prequel.
"The New Adventure of the Battlestar Galactica"? I could live with that but I would want to see if the show could stand on its own.


This way it could be taken in many directions that would satisify most BSG fans and keep the cheap sex out of it.
With out Richard and Dirk it could and would never be BSG and a large chunk will never get behind it
S

I'm not sure if the name for the show has been finalized, for all we know, it might be renamed the "The New Adventure of the Battlestar Galactica" or perhaps even just "Galactica." In which case you would have your wish, but I really doubt your criticism would stop.

Now you mentioned wanted BSG without "cheap sex." Having read the script, I find this has been totally overblown. There is really only one sexually explicit scene, and it's no worse than what can typically be found on television. It's about as prurient as the wet-tshirt Mary Jane in Spiderman. Truely no big deal.

Now, you're right that a large number of hard core BSG fans will not get behind the new project, that's obvious from these boards. But what you miss is that the key to the new BSG is not the old hardcore fans. Television aims for the 18-35 year old demographic. It's safe to say there probably aren't any true hard core original BSG fans under 30. Most of the fans that are being aimed for were either not even alive at the time of the original BSG, or were merely toddlers. These science fiction fans could care less whether Dirk Benedict or Richard Hatch were involved. Most of those fans are more likely to remember Dirk Benedict's connection to the A-Team (made in the 80's), then BSG.

So yes, there are some hardcore BSG fans that will find fault in almost any new project. You say you are behind a continuation or a prequal, but I somehow think you would nitpick fault even in projects of that nature. These fans number in the thousands, maybe even in the tens of thousands.... Maybe there is even a chance of it being over a hundred thousand fans, but I doubt it. The hope for the new show is that it will be watched by millions of people, the overwhelming majority of which think Richard Hatch is the guy who won the first Survivor.

[havoc315]

Dennis, interesting comparisons but I really can't say. I never saw either version of Failsafe. I've seen From Here to Eternity, but I don't have strong recollections of it.

[Stevew]

Like I say you have your view I have mine. Please do not assume to know what I will think or do.
As I said I think with some of the originals on board, they don't have to be center stage, just there to provide stability a guide the next generation of hot shots. This could satisfy the younger generation as well. Catering to the young and old would seem to be the best way to go.This point seems to have escaped you. I have been a sci-fi fan for 50 years and will watch most any but I do have an idea what can be successful.
Too bad you have not seen the trailer.
S

[Micheleh]

It's amazing that apparently the networks ared the only marketers who do not realise that the bulk of their buying-power audience is increasing in age all the time. 18-35? Try 30-55. Median. Most other goods and service areas know this.

The T&A justification is nothing more than a lame excuse to justify cheap productions with little effort involved. I really loved "Taken", even though I had been *detemined* not to. This is quality, and this is what I want. It can be done.

As for changing the name, I think if it were *radically* changed- like, for instance, "The Colonial Wars", then fine. It would be standing on it's own merits. But for godssakes, they have *got* to quit using the name Galactica and the charachter names to rope the Galactica audience into watching something that has about as much to do with the original as a dolphin to a shark. (They both swim, right?) It's a publicity tactic.

[Stevew]

That is what I tried to say M thanks
S

[havoc315]

Originally posted by Stevew

As I said I think with some of the originals on board, they don't have to be center stage, just there to provide stability a guide the next generation of hot shots.

Why? Why do you need original *actors* to provide stability? BSG 1980 had some of the original actors to provide stability and it sucked. Besides, why should good television have "stability" anyway?

As to the "next generation of hot shots." Yikes, you would see that as a positive type of BSG? I wouldn't want to see any BSG production, not remake, not continuation, not prequal, that was about a "generation of hot shots." No more than I would want to see a show about a "generation of old farts." Both are pretty unappealing to me. I'd like to see characters that are fleshed out and seem real, and that means ages relevant to the story. And certainly not a bunch of "hot shots."

This could satisfy the younger generation as well. Catering to the young and old would seem to be the best way to go.This point seems to have escaped you. I have been a sci-fi fan for 50 years and will watch most any but I do have an idea what can be successful.
Too bad you have not seen the trailer.
S

I know lots of things can be successful. You're stuck in a rut where you presume that there is only a single successful answer. But where you miss out is that no production should be made by catering to anything. Then you just get homogenized entertainment. You'll get BSG: The Reality Show, where a bunch of real ordinary people have to share a house with cylons. That's catering.

The worst entertainment products are usually the results of "catering," where every element is over analayzed and manipulated to appeal to certain segments of the marketplace. I have no problem with Starbuck being a female, if RDM made that choice because he thought it made the story work better. I would have a major problem with it if it was done, following a market study, where 64% of potential viewers stated they would prefer to see Starbuck as a female.

So I have a question, you said catering to young and old is the *best* way to go. Do you mean it's the best in the sense that it will be the superior program to watch, or do you mean best in the sense that it will be the most financially successfull?

If you mean financial success: Then somehow, I would hope that the powers at SciFi would know this far better than you or mr.
If you mean better television show: It's rather presumptive of you to assume you are the best television critic, especially before you have seen the show. What you personally think is the "best" is not the same as other people think is the "best." I would dare to say that plenty of the script reviews, especially from non-hard core fans, are very positive. I have said that I enjoyed the script very much, but I wouldn't dare say anything is the "best," because such an opinion is purely personal.

[Micheleh]

"You're stuck in a rut where you presume that there is only a single successful answer."

"It's rather presumptive of you to assume you are the best television critic, especially before you have seen the show."

Alright, step away from the keyboard.... deep breath...

[Stevew]

I will not engage in a war of words as that is not my thing and you know it. You know exactly the meaning of what I have said you just seem to want to spin what I say to suit your own agenda, what ever that may be. I think most of the non attorney people here understood my view. as far as Starbuck a women I will never buy that, any study that says that was bought and paid for. I never said I was a critic, I have seen almost every Sci-fi pgm ever made and I have a pretty good idea what works and I don't think you do. I think most opinions are personal
As far as I am concerned this disscusion is over
S

[Hito]

Count to 10 guys
i dont want to have to close the thread.

[peter noble]

Originally posted by havoc315
Extended family: The only extended family in the original was Adama and his two children. They have deleted Athena, and that does piss me off.

Just to clarify: Apollo, Athena and Boxey ARE Adama's family. By extended family I mean Starbuck, who Adama views as a third son, and his son's other friends Boomer, Sheba and Cassiopeia, and not forgetting Tigh who has been Adama's friend for ages.

Peter

[havoc315]

Originally posted by Hito
Count to 10 guys
i dont want to have to close the thread.

I offer my apologies, I did not mean any of my comments to be offensive, but I can see how they could be construed that way. Thus, for not monitoring my own language and natural assertiveness, I genuinely apologize. I respect all opinions, especially those that differ from my own, my only intent was to get those adverse opinions more fleshed out so they could be discussed.

Again, I'm sorry if any offense was taken.

[havoc315]

Originally posted by peter noble


Just to clarify: Apollo, Athena and Boxey ARE Adama's family. By extended family I mean Starbuck, who Adama views as a third son, and his son's other friends Boomer, Sheba and Cassiopeia, and not forgetting Tigh who has been Adama's friend for ages.

Peter

Ahh, based on that definition, the remake preserves and even augments the "extended family." Starbuck is practically an adopted daughter of Adama, she was almost a sister-in-law to Apollo, and is a close friend. There are still several other close friends, such as Boomer. In the script, Tigh and Adama are almost like family.

[Thomas P]

Kara/Starbuck is definitely a member of Adama's "family" in this version.

[havoc315]

Originally posted by Stevew
I will not engage in a war of words as that is not my thing and you know it. You know exactly the meaning of what I have said you just seem to want to spin what I say to suit your own agenda, what ever that may be. I think most of the non attorney people here understood my view. as far as Starbuck a women I will never buy that, any study that says that was bought and paid for. I never said I was a critic, I have seen almost every Sci-fi pgm ever made and I have a pretty good idea what works and I don't think you do. I think most opinions are personal
As far as I am concerned this disscusion is over
S

I wasn't spinning your words, I was examining them.
I honestly don't have an agenda. While we all walk around with prejudices, I tend to think I have few in regards to BSG.

Now you say you will never accept Starbuck as a woman, why not? That's as if I would say that I will never accept Starbuck as a man, or I would never accept Yoda as being green. This isn't the original BSG, every acknowledges its not the original. But why can't the new BSG have a female Starbuck? Without referring to the original BSG, is there a single reason that Starbuck can't b female?

I never suggested that there was a study suggesting that viewers wanted Starbuck to be a woman, I asked you a hypothetical. You say that you believe your ideas should be followed, because they will attract the most viewers. But what if you're wrong? What if they have been a million studies showing you're wrong?
Let me give a different example: Many critics really disliked the movie "My Big Fat Greek Wedding," yet it definitely had plenty of fans. Were the critics wrong? Of course not, they were entitled to their opinion, just as you're entitled to your opinion. I would hope your opinion would be based on the merits of the product, not how many viewers will be attracted.

Finally, you said that you know what works, and I don't know what works. Did you stop to think that what works for you, might not work for other people? And quite honestly, there is plenty of crap on television that works (people actually watch Fear Factor), and there is plenty of quality that fails (Freaks and Geeks was a great program). I would rather BSG was a quality product, even if it fails, rather than crap, even if it were to succeed.

In my very humble opinion, having read the BSG script, it is of very high quality. Overall, superior in quality to the original BSG. And Starbuck's gender certainly does not affect the quality of the script.

[crash4587]

Originally posted by havoc315










In my very humble opinion, having read the BSG script, it is of very high quality. Overall, superior in quality to the original BSG. And Starbuck's gender certainly does not affect the quality of the script.

Paul Tigh quality? A sex crazyed Baltar, quality? The hateful Lee Adama quality? and what about Hilo, " I'm going to trade my own life, for the brillant Baltar" You can Moore's script anything, but you can't call it BATTLESTAR GALACTICA

[Stevew]

I thought this was finished. I missread about the study, I am sorry.
If the story was not BSG perhaps a woman could work, I would have to see, I have no proplem with lady warriors but the name Starbuck has been taken, it would be using BSG to promote something that is not BSG, call me old fashon. ("I have a pretty good idea what works and I don't think you do") that is what I said. I don't listen to critics. My best anology is
Firefly is similar to the RDM script, not in content but for a lack of words, style and it failed.
Stargate has similar values as BSG and it is in ths 6th year. I understand they are all different and BSG was made in the 70's and it just had a more family tone to it. If I want Shakespeare I will go to the theater, This is sci-fi, and most people watch it for an escape. You can have deep stories but I just think it should be fun and the hero always gets the girl.
I hope you understand what I am trying to say, Iam just not good with words

[repcisg]

repcisg steps in and looks around, "Darn, I thought it was a food fight," then quietly steps out.

[Micheleh]

Kids could watch the original. Can you imagine???

"Mommy, what's that metal lady doing to that man?"

"Oh, dear, is it time for Power rangers already?"

*CLIK!*

[jewels]

The metal lady is very human-like: Oh my: BLADERUNNER flashback. (sorry it just struck me where I'd seen the sexy dark-haired fake woman before.) Moore thievery.

They better have a big old disclaimer on the front end or everyone will be switching to VHS or DVD before that space station blows!

[Thomas P]

Originally posted by crash4587
Paul Tigh quality? A sex crazyed Baltar, quality? The hateful Lee Adama quality? and what about Hilo, " I'm going to trade my own life, for the brillant Baltar" You can Moore's script anything, but you can't call it BATTLESTAR GALACTICA

How about I call it "very good"?

Yes, the characterizations of Tigh, Baltar, Lee and the other characters are "quality" in the sense that they're at least an attempt to imagine real human beings in these situations rather than heroic archetypes -- if one doesn't care for the approach that's one's right, but the issue here isn't one of "quality" but of whether the story suits one's individual tastes. All of your descriptions above are exaggerated and don't accurately represent the actual content of the script.

The scene with the pilot staying behind in favor of Baltar is, in fact, one of the nicer little ironies in the story and has quite an emotional impact. IMAO.

[crash4587]

Originally posted by Dennis


How about I call it "very good"?

Yes, the characterizations of Tigh, Baltar, Lee and the other characters are "quality" in the sense that they're at least an attempt to imagine real human beings in these situations rather than heroic archetypes -- if one doesn't care for the approach that's one's right, but the issue here isn't one of "quality" but of whether the story suits one's individual tastes. All of your descriptions above are exaggerated and don't accurately represent the actual content of the script.

The scene with the pilot staying behind in favor of Baltar is, in fact, one of the nicer little ironies in the story and has quite an emotional impact. IMAO.

That you are into, good for you........You can call moore's script anything but you can't call it BATTLESTAR GALACTICA

[Thomas P]

"Jerry Springer"? Hardly.

Don't condescend to me, kid, -- you don't appear to have the basic equipment to get away with that.

I don't care whether you call it "Battlestar Galactica" or not. You can reject this script all you like on the grounds that it isn't what you want or consider that you have a right to expect -- that's perfectly understandable. But based on your attitude and statements there's no reason to take your opinions of the writing quality seriously at all.