Which would win...

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

The second one. Booster rockets to alow for flight and very, very high jumps. high maneuverablitity and multiple angle attacks, the ability to crouch and maneuver almost as well as a human, if not better once you get into jumps and areal rolls/somersaults?

Number 3 isn't going to fair well, and if the firepower is powerful enough, number 1 wouldn't even know what hit them.

Sorry, gotta speak up here, as a long-time B-Tech gamer and fmr active-duty Marine. Damocles has hit it on the head: #3 wins every time over #2(#1 is a complete toss-up, due to wild differences in tecnology). Here's why:

In any "match-up" like this, you have to establish a baseline to work from. The ebst thing I've seen online in this regard is here: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...und/index.html

Apply these principles to "B-Tech/Mechwarrior vs The Real World", and every player in the B-Tech 'verse - including the Star League and the Clans - is in a LOT of trouble if placed against any "real" army with a technology and experience base of c.1945-2005.

Even given jump jets, mechs don't generally move faster than 100kph/62mph, and that only over extremely flat terrain, flat-out running, most mil-spec vehicles at least equal and usually exceed the best a mech can do.

Mech's are also a whole lot taller, and crouching doesn't lower their sillouette much. Also, to the best of my knowledge, there are no projectile weapons in B-Tech more sophisticated than Gauss cannon, and those aren't that much of an advantage.

Even though a late-20th/early-21st Century army doesn't posses destructive energy weapons at the level of B-Tech, all of their projectile weapons can be easily compared:

Infantry small arms: Although usual engagement ranges are c.-100m, B-Tech infantry generally does not engage outside that range.

Artillery: In B-Tech, it's non-existant; Long-Toms and LRM racks don't count; if you read it carefully, just about every single weapon in B-Tech has a range of under 1000m.

In comparison, current armies deploy thousands of artillery pieces that B-Tech would classify as AC-20+, and the vast majority of them fire at targets between 8000 and 15000m distant. Even if B-Tech RoF's are faster, they have no way of aiming farther than Line of Sight.

The problem is even worse with rocket artillery. Even a currently-40-yrd-old system like the Russian BM21 can unload 40 122mm rockets to a range of c.21000m in under 30 seconds...and a battalion of BM21s is a LOT cheaper than a mech battalion....

...And yes, Mechs are cooler, but that isn't the point

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by BRG

Just wondering, how do you think Captain Sheridan's Whitestar would do in battle against a Battlestar or Star Destroyer?

It looks quite a bit smaller than a Battlestar or Star Destroyer, but it fared well against the Shadows big ships, and it has the manouverability of a fighter.

Would it stand a chance, or is it out of its league against the Big 2?
BRG

The Whitestar is incredibly fast. It dove from Ganymede into Jupiter's atmosphere with a Shadow Battlecrab in hot pursuit in thirty eight seconds flat and this was seen in one sequence in real time on film!

That is 27,000kps or 0.9% of c. from a practical standing start to a practical standing stop averaged velocity!

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=6107

"Matters of Honor", the Whitestar pulled a Bonehead and destroys a Shadow Battlecrab.

The Whitestar was able to clear the blast and survive, but she was knocked around a bit. The Shadow vessel, next to the jump gate, was probably killed in the blast. At the very least, it was too damaged to function, or else it wouldn't kept going after the Whitestar.

Whitestar acceleration can be gauged by the scene from "Messages from Earth", where she flew from Ganymede to Jupiter in 38 seconds.

d = (a * t^2 ) / 2

d = 1.07 million km, or 1,070,000,000 *meters*.
t = 38 seconds.

1,070,000,000 = a * 722
a = 1481994.45983 meters/sec/sec

That's also 1481.9944 kilometers/sec/sec

Now, in the scene from "Matters of Honor", the Whitestar drops the jump vortex and then tries to accelerate clear. The time from when the Whitestar exited the jump point to the time when the leading edge of the blast wave hit her, is 15 seconds.

Again, using the above equation, we get:

d = (1481.9944 * 15^2) / 2
d = 166724.376731 kilometers

Now, we know that Babylon 5 survived a 500 GT bomb going off 1000 kilometers away. The flux intensity from that was 166.555 MJ/meter^2. The Whitestar's armor, at a minimum, would be equal to Babylon 5's WINDOWS, I should think. If anything, it would be stronger.

We know the Whitestar survived, but was tossed around pretty violently, so at a minimum she absorbed a similar flux intensity of 166.555 MJ/meter^2.

<EDIT>
This is really just an assumption. However, I feel it's a pretty reasonable and logical assumption. The Whitestar has Vorlon bio-armor and defense systems, and Babylon 5 is not only an EA station, it is a civilian station and wasn't designed to fight anything stronger than a group of fighters. Even after her defense grid was upgraded in "GROPOS" prior to "A Day in the Strife", her hull didn't receive any treatment to strengthen the hull or add armor.

However, like I said below, we have no idea how much a Whitestar masses, and they may in fact not mass very much, considering how fighter weapons were able to shove them off-axis slightly. (Although these were Thunderbolts from the Shadow Omegas, with unknown modifications made. We do know that the Thunderbolts were almost able to keep up with the Whitestars, implying acceleration beyond what normal EA fighters were capable of at that time.)
</EDIT>

============================================================

Area of a Sphere = 4 * pi * r^2

Whitestar's distance from blast = 166724.376731 km, so this is the radius from the blast.

Area of the blast sphere when it hit the Whitestar:

A = 4 * pi * 166724.376731^2
A = 349307627603 km^2

Since 1000 meters = 1 km, the above is also:
3.493E17 meters^2.

Now we take the flux intensity of 166.555 MJ/meters^2 and multiply by the above figure that gives the total area of the sphere. This gives us the total energy of the blast wave's outter edge.

Total Area = 3.493E17 meters^2
Flux Intensity = MJ/meter^2 = 166.555

Total Energy = (Total Area) * (Flux Intensity)
Total Energy = 5.81789319154E19 MJ

-or-
5.81789319154E16 GJ

-or-
5.81789319154E13 TJ

Now, since: 4186 TJ = 1 MT

We divide the above by 4186 and we get....
13898454829.3 MT

-or-
13898454.8293 GT

-or-
13898.4548293 TT

At a distance of 166,724.376731 kilometers, to achieve a flux intensity high enough to threaten the Whitestar at all, the blast would've had to have been 13898.454 TT.

The Shadow vessel was pretty damn close to this blast, and would've absorbed a considerable amount of damage... so it's understandable that it died. =)

Keeping in mind that jump gate technology is within what the Younger Races can do, this is damned impressive for the amount of power stored in a jump gate. At the very least, this should demonstrate just how much power can be harnessed from hyperspace, and supports the notion that the First Ones can generate GT-level firepower and channel it into their weapons systems.

And a White Star was designed to fight Shadow Batltecrabs.

Given that above; though, the ISD would tear a Whitestar apart assuming the ISD turbolasers could track fast enough.

A battlestar on the other hand would be in a lot of trouble.

Interesting thing about the Thunderbolt Starfury, isn't it? Powerful enough to be a threat to a White Star?

[martok2112]

I would have to say that the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator fired from the forward cannon of the Martian Maggot would effectively deal with any threat.

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by WarMachine

Sorry, gotta speak up here, as a long-time B-Tech gamer and fmr active-duty Marine. Damocles has hit it on the head: #3 wins every time over #2(#1 is a complete toss-up, due to wild differences in tecnology). Here's why:

In any "match-up" like this, you have to establish a baseline to work from. The ebst thing I've seen online in this regard is here:

Uh, sorry, but when I see a mech like that, I don't think MechWarrior/Battletech, I think the best our present technology and a bit more could make such things; the ability to avoid attacks by jumping is a major advantage if you can maneuver in the air while firing back while having the same range and firing speed as the best of our tracked tanks. And if I don't think that: I think Gundam Wing. They're as much aerial combat than pure tanks - they're basically all terrain including space combat vehicles.

[gmd3d]

I was just thinking of that myself martok.. good catch

[3DMaster]

Uh...

That Babylon 5 figure handling a 500 GT blast; exactly where do they get that? Because I don't believe that for a moment. Is Babylon 5, built by humans, tougher or less tough than the best Minbari Sharlin, like say the Black Star?

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

Uh, sorry, but when I see a mech like that, I don't think MechWarrior/Battletech, I think the best our present technology and a bit more could make such things; the ability to avoid attacks by jumping is a major advantage if you can maneuver in the air while firing back while having the same range and firing speed as the best of our tracked tanks. And if I don't think that: I think Gundam Wing. They're as much aerial combat than pure tanks - they're basically all terrain including space combat vehicles.

????"...mech like that.."? I don't know enough about Gundam to consider it; I was talking strictly about the Warhammer/MadCat pic above the tank, and about the cannon MechWarrior/Battletech universe....

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by WarMachine

????"...mech like that.."? I don't know enough about Gundam to consider it; I was talking strictly about the Warhammer/MadCat pic above the tank, and about the cannon MechWarrior/Battletech universe....

The exploding firing mechs universe?

I don't know anything about that universe. When I see a mech, I think about mechs I'm familiar with, and it's obvious from your description of those the mechs I'm familiar with would turn MechWarrior/Battletech mechs to shrap metal without any effort.

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

The exploding firing mechs universe?

I don't know anything about that universe. When I see a mech, I think about mechs I'm familiar with, and it's obvious from your description of those the mechs I'm familiar with would turn MechWarrior/Battletech mechs to shrap metal without any effort.

...Ahhhh, my mistake If Gundam is anything like Robotech(either version ) then that definately goes into the realm of "all bets are off"...

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

Uh, sorry, but when I see a mech like that, I don't think MechWarrior/Battletech, I think the best our present technology and a bit more could make such things; the ability to avoid attacks by jumping is a major advantage if you can maneuver in the air while firing back while having the same range and firing speed as the best of our tracked tanks. And if I don't think that: I think Gundam Wing. They're as much aerial combat than pure tanks - they're basically all terrain including space combat vehicles.

Baseline



M1 tank
Length hull -8 meters
Height -2.5 meters
Width -3.7 meters
L*H*W=74 cubic meters*80%(space of the gross calculated cube actually occupied by the structure=60. 0 meters cubed.)

Mass 72,000 kg/60 cubic meters= 1200kg per meter cubed.



Roughly speaking you get a relative mass density of 1200 kg per cubic meter of vehicle!

Now take your track footprint(estimated)

Length -3.5 meters
Width -0.5 meters
Track footprint= 1.75 sq. meters per track or 3,5 sq. meters for both tracks.
72,000kg/3.5 sq. meter
Ground pressure= 19,200 kg per sq. meter or 1.92 kg per sq. centimeter!

1. Take your battle mech(2) and calculate ground pressure if you carried a similar mass package.



Dimensions estimated
Height -25 meters
Width -15 meters
depth -15 meters
L*W*H=5625 gross cubic meters*50%=2812.5 (actual cubic meters occupied by the machine)

Using M-1 cubic density of 1200 kg per cubic meter of machine volume?
2812.5 cubic meters of mech* 1200 Kg per cubic meter M-1 standard density equivalent=3,375,000 kilograms for the mech!

Now for the ground pressure.(Estimated)

Each foot is calculated to be 10 meters by 10 meters to the corners of the splay toes.

That is 100 sq. meters *50% actual coverage of the square by the observed splayed foot. =50 sq. meters per foot or 100 sq. meters for both feet.
3,375,000 kg/ 100 sq meter= 33,750 kg per sq. meter.
That is 3.375 kg per sq. centimeter.
Now before you say that isn't so much;

Average man= 70kg
Average footprint of man =300 sq centimeter
Two feet on ground = 600 sq. centimeters
Human ground pressure= 0.23 kg per sq. centimeter

Now the actual book-stated ground pressure of the Abrams is 2.03 kg per sq centimeter; so you can se how close my estimates are. It presses into the ground eight and half times times harder than a man, Now understand that this means the Abrams cannot go over ground that won't hold a man. It bogs down big time.

Your mech presses into the ground fouteen and a half times harder than a man or one and a half times harder than the tank.

Frontal area target to hit?

M 1 Tank
2.5 meters tall* 3.7 meters wide= 9.25 sq meters to hit.

Mech
25 meters tall* 15 neters wide(Add a correction of 60% spacing to accounrt for the surface area not covered by the Mech's frontal aspect in its presented surface as regards the total square frontage of width*height)= 225 sq.meters to hit.

25 meters tall means that the Mech is 75 feet+ TALL!

In my tank I will kill your mech before you ever see me from hull defilade.

As for using rocket boost? Where do you have the room on the Mech to put engines rated at 3.5 million newtons of thrust? You are trying to launch a 3,375 TON machine into the air!

Cheers;

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

Uh...

That Babylon 5 figure handling a 500 GT blast; exactly where do they get that? Because I don't believe that for a moment. Is Babylon 5, built by humans, tougher or less tough than the best Minbari Sharlin, like say the Black Star?

The 500 gigaton figure was calculated using this;

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/047.html

Quoting JMS

Would the explosion have taken out a planet?
No, it probably couldn't take out a planet, though it'd sure disrupt all communications in and out for a long time, maybe throw up a dust curtain to bring down the temperature quite a bit. Certainly it'd debilitate the planet long enough for additional probes to be sent in. If one can do the job, one does the job; if more are required, more are sent.

To do what JMS descibes to a planet, you need to do this;

http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/

Inputs:
Distance from Impact: 1.00 km = 0.62 miles
Projectile Diameter: 50000.00 m = 164000.00 ft = 31.05 miles
Projectile Density: 8000 kg/m3 (iron)
Impact Velocity: 900.00 km/s = 558.90 miles/s (Your chosen velocity is higher than the maximum for an object orbiting the sun)
Impact Angle: 1 degrees
Target Density: 2500 kg/m3
Target Type: Sedimentary Rock
Energy:
Energy before atmospheric entry: 2.12 x 1029 Joules = 5.07 x 10^13 MegaTons TNT(507 gigatons.)
The average interval between impacts of this size is longer than the Earth's age.
Such impacts could only occur during the accumulation of the Earth, between 4.5 and 4 billion years ago.
Major Global Changes:
The Earth is not strongly disturbed by the impact and loses negligible mass.
The impact does not make a noticeable change in the Earth's rotation period or the tilt of its axis.
The impact does not shift the Earth's orbit noticeably.
Crater Dimensions:
Transient Crater Diameter: 518 km = 321 miles
Transient Crater Depth: 183 km = 114 miles
Final Crater Diameter: 1170 km = 728 miles
Final Crater Depth: 2.48 km = 1.54 miles
The final crater is replaced by a large, circular melt province.
The volume of the target melted or vaporized is 3.28e+07 km3 = 7.87e+06 miles3
Melt volume = 1.81 times the crater volume
At this size, the crater forms in its own melt pool.
Ejecta:
What does this mean?
You are DEAD.
Your position was inside the transient crater and ejected upon impact

The 500 gigaton figure was stated offhand by Susan Ivanova when Sheridan and she discussed the possibility that the probe was a berserker in the episode just a few seconds before it blew.

Cheers;

[_No_Name_]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

Uh...

That Babylon 5 figure handling a 500 GT blast; exactly where do they get that? Because I don't believe that for a moment. Is Babylon 5, built by humans, tougher or less tough than the best Minbari Sharlin, like say the Black Star?

In space, a nuclear explosion is going to be partitioned as

• 70% X Rays
• 0.2% Gamma Rays
• 1% Neutrons
• 3.8% Residual beta radiation
• 3.4% Residual gamma radiation
• 5.7% Neutrinos
• 16% Particulate kinetic energy

A nuclear bomb with a yield of 500 GT = 500000 KT * 4.19*10^12 J/KT = 2.10*10^18 J

Lets only consider the X-ray yield since 70% of the energy is there. As the X-ray ball expands it will remain a blackbody until thermodynamic equilibrium is broken. Lets assume that this happens in about 10 shakes (10^-7 seconds), which yields a radius of 30 m. The energy density of the "photon gas" is 1.8*10^13 J/m^3. From the Stefan-Boltzmann Law, we find that the blackbody temperature of the "photon gas" is 1.0 KeV (or 10^7 K--comparable to a stellar core). The average photon energy would then be 2.9 KeV. Thus, the X-ray spectrum will not be energetic enough to completely ionize high-Z material (Z = number of protons). We can conclude that conventional materials (iron, titanium, cobalt, etc) would work.

Since energy is conserved, we can apply the inverse square law to the bomb yield and determine the flux at 1000 km (=10^6 m):

F = 2.10*10^18 J / (4*pi*(10^6 m)^2 = 167 KJ/m^2

In X-Rays alone the ship will experience 117 KJ/m^2 with an average photon energy of 2.9 KeV.

The ships hull will have to absorb or reflect the 117 KJ/m^2 of energy. Lets assume it reflects light with 100% efficiency for all wavelengths. The momentum transferred to the target would be p = 2 U/c = 7.8*10^-4 kg m/(s m^2). That may not seem like a lot--until you consider that everything is happening on the order of shakes (10^-8 seconds). Using 10 shakes, the reflected pulse will generate a pressure of 7800 N/m^2 (1.1 psi). This is a manageable amount of pressure.

Lets consider the case where the hull absorbs 100% of all the energy. The specific heat of iron is approximately 448 J/(kg*K), thus a 1 kg piece of iron with a surface area of 1 m^2 will experience a temperature increase of 260 K. Thus, the hull is unlikely to melt.

Since radiative cooling is much less effective than conduction and convection, the heat will be dumped into the interior of the ship. Depending on the surface area and the mass of the ship, heat may be the biggest problem.

Bottom line, a 500 GT nuclear explosion at 1000 km is not very dangerous to most science fiction spacecraft. The occupants, on the other hand, might get cooked--either from the penetrating X-rays or from the heat generated by hull heating. At around 500 km, the 500 GT becomes significantly more deadly since it can heat the hull up to 1000 K per square meter. Around 40 - 80 kilometers the ship is in danger of being crushed flat from the X-rays.

[3DMaster]

Well, that 1,000 kilomter figure might help some. Fact is though, the Sharlin Black Star was severely damaged by a 2 MT explosion and destroyed completely by the second one, that was possibly a little nearer to it. These were mounted on an asteroid and remotely detonated without ever being directly on the ship. B5 ships are pretty weak.

[Damocles]

http://p072.ezboard.com/ftigerclawss...picID=88.topic

(Credit the work to the gentleman; Tigerclaw.D.)

Summary;
He argues that the two megaton warhead transmitted an electro-magnetic pulse into an active Sharlin particle beam cannon that was about to fire. This shrted out the weapon and causd it's capacitor to burst, setting off a cascade effect through the power grid, that eventually destroyed the Minbari ship's micro-hypermass powerplant containment field. That was what destroyed the Blackstar in a "blackhole" evaporation event. Sheridan was supposed to have made an astute guess about the way Minbari powered their ships and exploited what he saw as a design weakness.

http://www.babtech-onthe.net/minbari/2megbombs.ram

I do not agree with this conclusion.

http://www.babtech-onthe.net/minbari/warcruiser.html

From what I know about atomic weapons in a vacuum, the major effects you can expect from a bomb are heat flash within the radius of the fireball and a feeble electrical charge impingement transmitted by the photons and the flung out charged particles of the bomb. Direct kinetic shock you need a working fluid/mass-either the bomb case or an atmosphere. Heat loading not immediately subject to the inverse square law requires direct contact between the fireball and the object being heatloaded. My guess is that Sheridan had his ordnance personel aboard the Lexington sap some asteroids with his nuclear weapons as bursting charges. He used those asteroids as giant fragmentation grenades to destroy the Blackstar and her escorts.

http://www.babtech-onthe.net/quicktime/bstar.mov

From the video you can se the asteroid fragmentation and the signs of fragment strike damage to the Blackstars' starboard side. You will notice that in this short sequence the Blackstar apparently shifts aspect in POV from port to starboard? You will notice fires and holes on the Balckstar between burst one and burst two. Presumably a particle beam weapon exploded and blew off the fin. While weapon feedback damage probably explains the alnost sawed effect seen nn that Sharlin, I am at a loss to explain how a two megaton bomb's electromagnetic pulse is supposed to short out the capacitor to an 85,000 terawatt weapon. Impacts, though, could do that by simply shattering the weapon as it is ready to emit.

Some people call John Sheridan a one-trick pony.

For Sheridan uses much the same gimmick to hammer Shadow battlecrabs at Corianna Six.

http://www.babtech-onthe.net/shadows/warship.html

You can run the video backwards and forwards for yourself and see the asteroid fragments shred Shadow spitfire fighters and battlecrabs.

http://www.babtech-onthe.net/quicktime/bomb1.mov

Apart from the nickname he earned from these tactics of "Johnny Nuke'em", you can see that Sheridan used something he learned in battle that worked repeatedly to defeat enemies who outgunned him in the particle beam department.

Thus; my own pet theory is that Sheridan used nuclear weapon-seeded asteroids as grenades; to pepper his opponents with high speed asteroid fragments, to damage/destroy them before he closed and killed them with conventional ship weapons.

ADDENDUM; Did you notice the Lexington hiding behind the asteroid?

Cheers;

[3DMaster]

Lots and lots of talk which comes down to nothing.

2 2MT nuclear weapons took out a Minbari Sharlin, it's that simple.

It fits perfectly with the way the whole B5 ships look, work, and what they lack. They're horrendously slow in comparison to for example ST ships. They're simply not very advanced, even the most advanced of the Younter Races seem rather pathetic.

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

Lots and lots of talk which comes down to nothing.
2 2MT nuclear weapons took out a Minbari Sharlin, it's that simple.

It fits perfectly with the way the whole B5 ships look, work, and what they lack. They're horrendously slow in comparison to for example ST ships. They're simply not very advanced, even the most advanced of the Younter Races seem rather pathetic.

You better have some physics behind you; if you come out with fighting words.

I also warn you that Berman Trek is a very touchy subject with me.

I intend to demonstrate the error of your statement in a friendly way.

Do you know how to explain this?

http://www.babtech-onthe.net/calcula...calculator.htm

Those calculations are valid with the onscreen evidence assuming RHA steel. Those are low estimates.

Now you have brought up(yet again) the central question in B-5. Why do nuclear warheads kill spacecraft when there isn't sufficient direct x/uv/ir heating to accomplish the goal shown on screen.(especially based on what you expect in the real world).

I demonstrated by visual(video) evidence that the two occasions cited have a kinetic impactor explanation for ships destroyed(nuclear warhead sapped asteroids used as fragmentation grenades) Both times the ships were in the middle of an asteroid field; the frragments outflung showed velocities consistent with the necessary kinetic energies that you would require to destroy robustly armored and armed spacecraft such as Battlecrabs and Sharlins.

I warn you flatly that I can show you this again in another way, the Enterprise E ramming the Scimitar at low speed;

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/movies/clips/...&type=c&a=0,15

showes a pathetically weak spacecraft.

Whereas from this site;

http://b5tech.com/science/misc/armor/index.html

using this video;

http://www.b5tech.com//movies/astrmove.asf

http://b5tech.com/movies/plasmaweapo...nbariarmor.asf

I can show the shot up Lexington shrug off a low speed asteroid impact equivalent to the above Enterprise/Sciimitar collision in energies involved without a scratch!

Cheers;

[Tabitha]

So I guess Im still wondering why they dont shoot big drums of Einsteinium or some other equally rare and volitile and dense material at each other. After all, the mass of a fifty five gallon drum of some isotope that dense hitting a starship, while it can be made to not over penetrate, would have to release the energy of the mass in the only direction available, to the sides. That would create heat, light, and certainly compression. Maybe Im wrong, if so please correct me. But that being the case, the kinetic energy of a mass density isotope releasing a hypersonic level of energy in all directions, should be able to pop open a starship, built to keep its pressure in, but designed more to keep outside objects from penetrating, would not have the structural integrity to withstand the enormous amount of energy given off by a single kinetic missle. In fact, I dont believe anything man made could ever do so.
Thats just a guess.

tabbi

[3DMaster]

I don't care about most physics calculations done by people who are dead set on making some other show less.

I don't care much about Bermagga Trek either. I watch TNG/DS9 with a TOS filter, as well as a physics filter. Photon torpedoes carry matter and anti-matter and have several MT exposions? The SFX dudes messed up and we should be seeing massive fireballs every time.

Nemesis you can completely toss out the window; anything you get from that, I won't acknowledge. That was such a piece of horrendous tripe, continuity problems galore, not to mention plot holes the size of a star - it never happened. Must be Riker's holodeck Scenario or something, written by an incompetent writer. Notice at that impact the Scimitar is pretty much 100% operational, while the Enterprise is crippled like a beached whale. Shinzon as the Enteprise comes limping along orders 'maneuvering thrusters' (while it could fly circles around the Enterprise using everything it's got), there's the ridiculous collision (that defies pretty much all laws of physics) and only then, AFTER the collision he orders "FULL REVERSE!" This tripe, never happened.

Those 2MT warheads produced a mighty big fireball, it's obvious the Sharlin was inside that fireball; got hit by it, and there it went: boom.

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by Tabitha

So I guess Im still wondering why they dont shoot big drums of Einsteinium or some other equally rare and volitile and dense material at each other. After all, the mass of a fifty five gallon drum of some isotope that dense hitting a starship, while it can be made to not over penetrate, would have to release the energy of the mass in the only direction available, to the sides. That would create heat, light, and certainly compression. Maybe Im wrong, if so please correct me. But that being the case, the kinetic energy of a mass density isotope releasing a hypersonic level of energy in all directions, should be able to pop open a starship, built to keep its pressure in, but designed more to keep outside objects from penetrating, would not have the structural integrity to withstand the enormous amount of energy given off by a single kinetic missle. In fact, I dont believe anything man made could ever do so.
Thats just a guess.

tabbi

Tabbi;

Using mass drivers(cannons) to smash holes in things is so sensible; that it is the primary means we use in the real world to damage spacecraft(satellites).

So you are quite correct!

You would probably use a hardened drum(shell) to punch into the hull before a time delay fuse detonates the warhead to rupture the spacecraft and use all the available energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-p...shot_and_shell

Armor-piercing shot and shell
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search
An armour piercing shell is a type of ammunition designed to penetrate armour. In naval warfare and older anti-tank shells, the shell had to withstand the shock of punching through armour plate. Shells designed for this purpose had a greatly strengthened case with a specially hardened and shaped nose, and a much smaller bursting charge. Some smaller calibre AP shells had no bursting charge at all. Plain AP shell is now very rarely seen except in naval usage, and is not commonly used there.
(Rest of the article...D.)

Now to punch holes in armored hulls we would probably use high velocity rockets carrying these in bundles;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_round

Kinetic energy penetrator
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
(Redirected from Kinetic energy round)
Jump to: navigation, search
A kinetic energy penetrator, long-rod penetrator, or armour-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS) is a type of ammunition which, like a bullet, does not contain explosives, but uses kinetic energy to penetrate the target. The term is used for more powerful projectiles than ordinary bullets which have increased armour penetration capabilities due to:

being fired with a very high muzzle velocity
concentrating the force on a small impact area without having too small a mass
To produce very high speeds the ammunition is normally composed of a narrow penetrator surrounded by a sabot which expands the diameter to the full barrel width of the firing gun. This allows the pressure of the propellant gases to act on the full-size base and produce rapid acceleration of the round, which is lighter than a full metal round of the same diameter would be. Once the round leaves the barrel the sabot falls off, leaving the penetrator travelling at high speed and with a smaller cross-sectional area, which reduces aerodynamic drag during the flight to the target (see external ballistics and terminal ballistics). This technique was first used in anti-tank guns during World War 2; Germany developed sabots under the name "Treibspiegel".

KE-penetrators for modern tanks are commonly just 2-3 centimeters in diameter, and 50-60 centimeters long; as more modern penetrators are developed, their length tends to increase and the diameter to decrease. To maximize the amount of kinetic energy released on the target, the penetrator must be made of a dense material, such as tungsten or depleted uranium (DU). The hardness of the penetrator is of lesser importance. In fact, DU is not particularly hard. An advantage of DU is that it is pyrophoric: the fragments of the penetrator ignite on contact with air. Uranium rod is also self-sharpening on impact due to its adiabatic properties: so it doesn't "mushroom" like unjacketed tungsten does.
(Rest of the article....D.)

That is a modern antiarmor kinetic energy penetrator.

A modern anti-tank HVAPDS shot(sabot/bolt) can easily pierce up to a half meter of RHA steel. That is done with about 8-10 megajoules of kinetic energy.

The problem with kinetic energy penetrators whether shell or shot/bolt is that once you get to delta vees in the realm of 4000+ mps, the projectile smashes into fragments against a reasonably elastic RHA steel or ceramic plate that is as thick as the projectile is long. You get minor cratering/cracking in the plate and some scorch marks.

Beyond those delta vees you need to melt your way through armor using heatloading and guess what you use to do that?
(End of part 1)

[Damocles]

You can do this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_explosive_anti-tank

High explosive anti-tank
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search
High explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds are made of an explosive shaped charge that uses the Neumann effect (a development of the Munroe effect) to create a very high-velocity jet of metal in a state of superplasticity that can punch through solid armor.

The jet moves at hypersonic speeds (up to 25 times the speed of sound) in solid material and therefore erodes exclusively in the contact area of jet and armor material. Spacing is critical, as the jet disintegrates and disperses after a relatively short distance, usually well under 2 metres. The jet material is formed by a cone of metal foil lining, usually copper, though tin foil was common during the Second World War.

The key to the effectiveness of a HEAT round is the diameter of the warhead. As the penetration continues through the armor, the width of the hole decreases leading to a characteristic "fist to finger" penetration, where the size of the eventual "finger" is based on the size of the original "fist". In general HEAT rounds can expect to penetrate armor of 150% to 250% of their width, although modern versions claim numbers as high as 700%.

HEAT rounds are less effective if they are spinning, the normal method for giving a shell accuracy. The centrifugal force disperses the jet, so the warhead design needs to be modified for use with rifled guns, or fired from smoothbore weapons. A further problem is that if the warhead is contained inside the barrel, then its diameter is restricted to the caliber of the gun. Increasing the caliber to allow a greater diameter makes the gun heavier. Recoilless rifles using lighter barrels and mounts firing HEAT rounds (e.g. the British WOMBAT (120 mm) or Swedish Carl Gustav (84mm)) have proven to be effective.

Where HEAT is used as the warhead for guided missiles, rifle grenades and spigot mortars, warhead size is not a limiting factor, as these are not contained within the firing weapon's barrel.

The problem with HEAT is that it's molten jet is easily defeated by explosive reactive panelling or void plate spacing or certain classified types of electric armors(electrics which also defeat the kinetic penetrators by snapping the bolt and causing it to tumble and shatter on impact.).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_beam

Particle beam
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search
A particle beam is an accelerated stream of atoms or subatomic particles (often moving at very near the speed of light) directed by magnets and focused by lenses.

Subatomic particles as electrons, positrons, and protons can be accelerated to high velocities and energies, usually expressed in terms of center-of-mass energy, by machines that impart energy to the particles in small stages or nudges, ultimately achieving in this way very high energy particle beams, measured in terms of billions and even trillions of electron volts. Thus, in terms of their scale, particles can be made to perform as powerful missiles for bombarding other particles in a target substance or for colliding with each other as they assume intersecting orbits.

A charged particle is drawn forward by a magnetic field with a charge the opposite of the particle (like charges repel one another, opposites attract); as the particle passes through a series of magnetic fields in sequence, each accelerates it until the charged particle is moving at a high rate of speed. A natural analogy to particle beams is lightning, where electrons flow from negatively charged clouds to positively charged clouds or the earth.

Particle Beams as Weapons
Though particle beams are perhaps most famously employed as weapon systems in Science Fiction (e.g. "phasers" in Star Trek), the U.S. Advanced Research Projects Agency (now called DARPA) started work on particle beam weapons as early as 1958 [1], two years before the first scientific demonstration of Lasers. The general idea of particle-beam weaponry is to hit a target object with a stream of accelerated particles moving at near the speed of light and therefore carrying tremendous kinetic energy; the particles transfer their kinetic energy to the atoms in the molecules of the target upon striking, much as a cue ball transfers its energy to the racked balls in billiards, thus exciting the target's atoms and superheating the target object in such a short time that it explodes. Currently, the materials for such weapons are "high-risk" and may not be developed for some time. [2]. Particle cannons are not likely to be used in a near future conflict as the power needed to projest such a highly powered beam surpasses the production capabilities of any standard battlefield powerplant. This beam weapon is undoubtedly also very hard not to notice; particles travelling near the speed of light are not usually seen on a battlefield. It may be possible to use particle beams as part of the Strategic Defense Initiative (dubbed "Star Wars"), but the problem of a viable power source still stands, even more so in space. It may be possible in the future with possible fusion generators, but this technology is not expected to be perfected and be in mass use for several decades. If perfected this could be a new horizon in conventional weaponry, being easily as dangerous as any kinetic weapon, and effectively making any substance it comes into contact with an explosive. Particle weaons are often overlooked when compared to lasers, even though they have some advantages over their more well known counterpart. Because the particle beam is in fact millions of tiny projectiles, it transmits its kinetic energy to the atomic structure of the target making it difficult to protect a target from it. This obviously makes the weapon very destructive, and highly lethal to anyone it hits. However, it is easier to deflect a particle beam if one posseses powerful magnetic or electromagnetic fields, but at the sppeds the beam would travel, one cannot be sure how effective these countermeasures would be. Also, the atmosphere would reduce the beam strength very quickly, because the air molecules would slow down and scatter the particles. Only actual testing will prove how effective particle beams would really be for military applications.

I supply this to suggest that Glen Larsen knew exactly what he was doing when he had special effects people photo-matte particle beam weapon effects as being the primary heatloaders in CBG. I also note that he insisted that when Pegasus used missiles with nuclear(Solonite?) warheads to destroy the basestars, those missiles were impactors whose warheads went off when the missiles hit the basestars.

Sorry about the extended armor lesson.

Cheers;

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

I don't care about most physics calculations done by people who are dead set on making some other show less.

I don't care much about Bermagga Trek either. I watch TNG/DS9 with a TOS filter, as well as a physics filter. Photon torpedoes carry matter and anti-matter and have several MT exposions? The SFX dudes messed up and we should be seeing massive fireballs every time.

Nemesis you can completely toss out the window; anything you get from that, I won't acknowledge. That was such a piece of horrendous tripe, continuity problems galore, not to mention plot holes the size of a star - it never happened. Must be Riker's holodeck Scenario or something, written by an incompetent writer. Notice at that impact the Scimitar is pretty much 100% operational, while the Enterprise is crippled like a beached whale. Shinzon as the Enteprise comes limping along orders 'maneuvering thrusters' (while it could fly circles around the Enterprise using everything it's got), there's the ridiculous collision (that defies pretty much all laws of physics) and only then, AFTER the collision he orders "FULL REVERSE!" This tripe, never happened.

Those 2MT warheads produced a mighty big fireball, it's obvious the Sharlin was inside that fireball; got hit by it, and there it went: boom.

?????????????????????????????????????
The fireball didn't engulf the Sharlin or we would have seen the light wall obscure the Blackstar. Are you confusing the blast corona with the fireball?

1. We agree on Berman Trek.
2. I don't run any series down; I just try to keep things in true perspective when someone suggests that for example the "alligator" can survive in combat with an ISD.
3. Just as a Shadow Battlecrab would be scragged by an ISD despite my wishes to the contrary.
4. "Nemesis" is by Paramount's definition(The holders of the Trek franchise trademark) CANON

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek

Star Trek
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Star Trek collectively refers to six science-fiction television series spanning 726 episodes, ten motion pictures, and hundreds of novels, video games, and other works of fiction, all set within the same fictional universe created by Gene Roddenberry in the early and mid 1960s. It depicts an optimistic future in which humanity has overcome sickness, racism, poverty, intolerance, and warfare on Earth, and has united with other intelligent species in the galaxy; the central characters explore the galaxy, finding new worlds and meeting new civilizations, while helping to promote peace and understanding. "Star Trek" is one of the most popular names in the history of science fiction entertainment, and one of the most popular franchises in television history.
(Read the rest of the article....D.)

Further;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_canon

Star Trek canon
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search
It has been suggested that this article or section be merged into Wikipedia:WikiProject Star Trek. (Discuss)

The Star Trek canon consists of the television series Star Trek, Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Voyager, Star Trek: Enterprise, and the ten motion pictures based upon the franchise.

The non-canonical status of the various novels, comic books and Star Trek: The Animated Series was decided by Gene Roddenberry, who also said he considered elements of the Trek films Star Trek V: The Final Frontier and Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country to be apocryphal, although these films remain full canon.

According to current editors at Pocket Books, current rights holders for publishing Star Trek fiction, no novels or other printed stories are considered canon by Paramount Pictures, owners of Star Trek. This includes the Voyager novels Pathways and Mosaic (both by the series producer Jeri Taylor) which were, for a time, considered canon but stopped being so after Taylor left her position with the series. This viewpoint is considered controversial by many fans of Star Trek fiction, some of whom consider the literary works to be superior to many examples of the televised and filmed Star Trek.

In addition, no reference works based upon the series are considered canon, either, even though they may contain canonical elements. This includes works such as the popular Star Trek Chronology.
(Rest of the article...D.)

Notice that the Enterprise is still crumpled, and that damaged or not it still rends like tissue under the impact.

Now if you don't like "Nemesis" then how about this?

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...es/Odyssey.avi

The Odyssey blew up after a hit that the Lexington would shake off.

Cheers.

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

?????????????????????????????????????
The fireball didn't engulf the Sharlin or we would have seen the light wall obscure the Blackstar. Are you confusing the blast corona with the fireball?

Fireball, thing got blown up, that's all I need to know.

1. We agree on Berman Trek.
2. I don't run any series down; I just try to keep things in true perspective when someone suggests that for example the "alligator" can survive in combat with an ISD.
3. Just as a Shadow Battlecrab would be scragged by an ISD despite my wishes to the contrary.

I wouldn't be surrpised if the Battlecrab made mince meat out of an ISD. You take the ISD's from the movies they aren't all that strong, they're mostly pathetic, really. It's only in the EU that the Star Wars vessels suddenly get huge, ridiculous boosts that the movies just never shows. There are so many descrepencies between the EU and the movies it isn't funny. Since Lucas has said on a few occasions he doesn't consider the EU and the movies the same universe (and even if he did I don't care), I take everything from the EU as bullfelgercarb.

4. "Nemesis" is by Paramount's definition(The holders of the Trek franchise trademark) CANON

Read this: I. Don't. Care.

[b]]The Odyssey blew up after a hit that the Lexington would shake off.

No, it wouldn't. Even if it could handle the actual impact, the ramming vessels's power core - most likely anti-matter - going 'boom' would completely vaporize the ship. Just as much as it did the Odyssey.

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

Fireball, thing got blown up, that's all I need to know.

No, it wouldn't. Even if it could handle the actual impact, the ramming vessels's power core - most likely anti-matter - going 'boom' would completely vaporize the ship. Just as much as it did the Odyssey.

Ahem, the Odyssey was still intact after the collision, but heavily damaged when the JemHadar fighter blew. It, Odyssey burst asunder when its, the Odyssey's engines exploded-not before.

The Lexington was hit and pushed-no hull damage seen.

I looked at Mike Wong's work on the SW films. I also looked at Mister Poe and a few others and I am convinced that the battlecrab is toast if it fights an ISD.

Just by the same token I suggest that the "alligator" and the "Omega" would be a fair comparison, as the Colonial battlestar's missiles are quite capable of severely damaging a 1600 meter EF capital ship if not destroy it outright. The basestars that tried to shoot down the Pegasus' missiles failed.
Those missile warheads were powerful enough to destroy base ships larger than the "Omega".

Cheers!

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

Ahem, the Odyssey was still intact after the collision, but heavily damaged when the JemHadar fighter blew. It, Odyssey burst asunder when its, the Odyssey's engines exploded-not before.

The Lexington was hit and pushed-no hull damage seen.

No, the explosion that destroyed the Odyssey starts at the saucer section, if you notice. The JemHadar fighter angled upward and toward the sauser in the last moment before collision. There's nothing inherintly explosive in the saucer section. Further the Jem'Hadar fighter will be going MUCH faster than an asteroid. The ships in B5 will do what? .1 c? The Minbari have .2c's as maximum speed. That Jem'Hadar fighter will be going .5cs at least, and possibly as high as full impulse at .97c. Yes, it doesn't seem like it's moving that fast, but if they artists did, it'd move too fast for our eyes to follow. You'd see nothing but a big boom, so I'm not taking the visual as the way it actually went.

I looked at Mike Wong's work on the SW films. I also looked at Mister Poe and a few others and I am convinced that the battlecrab is toast if it fights an ISD.

Mike Wong That guy doesn't do SW films, he does EU. That guy and the rest of the Wars fans there are, quite frankly, nuts when it comes to calculations on SW.

Just by the same token I suggest that the "alligator" and the "Omega" would be a fair comparison, as the Colonial battlestar's missiles are quite capable of severely damaging a 1600 meter EF capital ship if not destroy it outright. The basestars that tried to shoot down the Pegasus' missiles failed.
Those missile warheads were powerful enough to destroy base ships larger than the "Omega".

Cheers!

Alligator?

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

No, the explosion that destroyed the Odyssey starts at the saucer section, if you notice. The JemHadar fighter angled upward and toward the sauser in the last moment before collision. There's nothing inherintly explosive in the saucer section. Further the Jem'Hadar fighter will be going MUCH faster than an asteroid. The ships in B5 will do what? .1 c? The Minbari have .2c's as maximum speed. That Jem'Hadar fighter will be going .5cs at least, and possibly as high as full impulse at .97c. Yes, it doesn't seem like it's moving that fast, but if they artists did, it'd move too fast for our eyes to follow. You'd see nothing but a big boom, so I'm not taking the visual as the way it actually went.

1. Impulse engines are in the saucer and they explode.
2. Starboard pylon gas intermixer(warp nacelle) explodes.
3. Film is treated as documentary when you analyze.

Mike Wong That guy doesn't do SW films, he does EU. That guy and the rest of the Wars fans there are, quite frankly, nuts when it comes to calculations on SW.

His visuals are from the films and that is the source of his screen calculations.

Alligator?

Alligator.

Cheers!

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

1. Impulse engines are in the saucer and they explode.

Not in the front of the saucer they aren't. And in fact they're not in the saucer, they're in the swan neck.

2. Starboard pylon gas intermixer(warp nacelle) explodes.

Well, duh.

3. Film is treated as documentary when you analyze.

And that's the problem: you can't. There are so many people part of an effects shot: the writer, the director, the artist - a lot of them make decision on dramatic impact. Like I said: if they let the Dominion bug move at the speed it most likely would be going, you wouldn't see it. A thing moving as slow as you say it should be a. wouldn't get past the shields, and b. if the shields were down or something, would be moving too slow, an ST ship would avoid it easily. Hence, you have to take visuals with a grain of sault, and look at the bigger picture.

His visuals are from the films and that is the source of his screen calculations.

Yeah, like the lovely SDs go into an asteroid field, 'vaporize' an asteroid showing the ISDs super firing strenght. And oh, yeah, EU shield strength claims are valid despite the fact that the asteriods shouldn't get hurt by a few asteroids but a SD was destroyed by one (conveniently it's a different ship).

Now notice what I mean with bigger picture:

If the SD could easily vaporize any size asteroid, AND had shields that could easily handle the asteroids, that asteroid field would never be a threat to Imperial troops. They could just flyin in with imputy and blow every asteroid one by one till they either had proof they had the falcon or blew them ALL away. So why would Han Solo and co. go into it? It wouldn't give them much if any advantage. Further Han Solo wouldn't say they'd be crazy to follow them in. Nor would an bridge officer be nervous about entering it and reminding Vader of the danger. The visuals and some dumb line in a book about another weaker ship might say it's so and so powerful, but the meaning of the scene is clear: ISDs will most likely end up being destroyed going into that field, and some of them do. Hence the whole 'proof' of super power weapons' strength is bullfelgercarb, and the writers of the books should have taken things with a grain of salt and not take one visual do a high end calculation and use that.

Hell, if they'd bother with some closer inspection, they'd notice SW is more magic than science, and would never have bothered with any calculations and supsequent ridiculous strenght claims at all. They'd just write the stuff as the movie, and have the weapons behave like in the movies - the bigger picture that is, not one dramatic shot of destroying some piece of rock.

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

Not in the front of the saucer they aren't. And in fact they're not in the saucer, they're in the swan neck.

I've viewed that footage at least a hundred times. Odyssey in the near shot is seen in starboard low front quarter aspect; takes the ramming just above the deflector dish under the saucer. It is the JemHadar fighter that explodes in the near shot under the saucer, spinning its port wing and nacelle off to impact into the Odyssey's starboard warp nacelle.

Review it again for yourself.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...es/Odyssey.avi

You can see of what I write?

Then we shift to a far shot; Odyssey aft rear slight starboard aspect. There you see the impulse engines blow in the aft of the saucer(in the gooseneck if you prefer), and then the whole ship bursts asunder.

Well, duh.

The point is that the nacelle burst didn't explode the Odyssey until her impulse engines blew.

And that's the problem: you can't. There are so many people part of an effects shot: the writer, the director, the artist - a lot of them make decision on dramatic impact. Like I said: if they let the Dominion bug move at the speed it most likely would be going, you wouldn't see it. A thing moving as slow as you say it should be a. wouldn't get past the shields, and b. if the shields were down or something, would be moving too slow, an ST ship would avoid it easily. Hence, you have to take visuals with a grain of sault, and look at the bigger picture.

Can't be helped. I could use that argument to argue the uber characteristics of EF ships which you pointed out correctly on film are CGIed as primitive and slow. Can't argue both ways. All or nothing. I prefer the "film as real school" because it gives a common usable result across all video presentations. The asteroid that the Excalibur bursts asunder in ACTA is smaller than the one the ISD vaporizes in the ESB movie. So likewise the asteroid that the Enterprise torpedoes in ST/TMP so I have a common iron asteroid as reference for the three
different presentations that gives me a baseline equivalence measurement. Same for timebeat velocity calculations(See fighter thread) so I can estimate delta vees.

Yeah, like the lovely SDs go into an asteroid field, 'vaporize' an asteroid showing the ISDs super firing strenght. And oh, yeah, EU shield strength claims are valid despite the fact that the asteriods shouldn't get hurt by a few asteroids but a SD was destroyed by one (conveniently it's a different ship).
Now notice what I mean with bigger picture:

Maybe we should discuss the PHOTON TORPEDO inconsistency? Or just accept that Imperial ships have design flaws that can show up on screen like Minbari warcruisers? I don't use EU shield strength claims. I use the unscathed video images of ISDs after taking Mon Calamari cruiser fire to check Mr. Wongs shield claims.

If the ISD could easily vaporize any size asteroid, AND had shields that could easily handle the asteroids, that asteroid field would never be a threat to Imperial troops. They could just flyin in with imputy and blow every asteroid one by one till they either had proof they had the falcon or blew them ALL away. So why would Han Solo and co. go into it? It wouldn't give them much if any advantage. Further Han Solo wouldn't say they'd be crazy to follow them in. Nor would an bridge officer be nervous about entering it and reminding Vader of the danger. The visuals and some dumb line in a book about another weaker ship might say it's so and so powerful, but the meaning of the scene is clear: ISDs will most likely end up being destroyed going into that field, and some of them do. Hence the whole 'proof' of super power weapons' strength is bullfelgercarb, and the writers of the books should have taken things with a grain of salt and not take one visual do a high end calculation and use that.

Or the Imperial shield systems might, reasonably, like any system under load degrade with sustained strain and fail. If you noticed the ISDs plowed through much of the asteroid field and shrugged off impacts as well as shot some of the larger rocks despite the misgivings.

I always wondered why the Imperials didn't send in fighters and just hang outside the asteroid field to shoot the Falcon when the TIEs flushed it out from among the rocks

Hell, if they'd bother with some closer inspection, they'd notice SW is more magic than science, and would never have bothered with any calculations and supsequent ridiculous strenght claims at all. They'd just write the stuff as the movie, and have the weapons behave like in the movies - the bigger picture that is, not one dramatic shot of destroying some piece of rock.

Now we get into Lucas' SCIENCE. You have read me complain that he knows nothing about science? See earlier my comments on his pathetic treatment of ground combat.

Frankly the only nitwits dumber than George, who have less understanding of what is likely possible for empires that build two kilometer long spaceships or in the case of the Feds 700 meter spaceships is Berman, Bragga, Taylor, and of course the infamous RDM.

At least I can point to GROPOS and show that JMS has a clue!

Cheers.

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

I've viewed that footage at least a hundred times. Odyssey in the near shot is seen in starboard low front quarter aspect; takes the ramming just above the deflector dish under the saucer. It is the JemHadar fighter that explodes in the near shot under the saucer, spinning its port wing and nacelle off to impact into the Odyssey's starboard warp nacelle.

Review it again for yourself.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...es/Odyssey.avi

You can see of what I write?

Then we shift to a far shot; Odyssey aft rear slight starboard aspect. There you see the impulse engines blow in the aft of the saucer(in the gooseneck if you prefer, and then the whole ship bursts asunder.

The point is that the nacelle burst didn't explode the Odyssey until her impulse engines blew.

The explosion of the saucer started in the saucer, in the middle of the saucer, nowerhere near the impulse engines. That explosion isn't the Galaxy-class, it's the Dominion's ship energy plant explosion.

Can't be helped. I could use that argument to argue the uber characteristics of EF ships which you pointed out correctly on film are CGIed as primitive and slow. Can't argue both ways. All or nothing. I prefer the "film as real school" because it gives a common usable result across all video presentations. The asteroid that the Excalibur bursts asunder in ACTA is smaller than the one the ISD vaporizes in the ESB movie. So likewise the asteroid that the Enterprise torpedoes in ST/TMP so I have a common iron asteroid as reference for the three
different presentations that gives me a baseline equivalence measurement. Same for timebeat velocity calculations(See fighter thread) so I can estimate delta vees.

No, you couldn't argue super strength from the B5's tech and statements; not if you want to look foolish and be ignored. This is where "bigger picture" comes in. B5 ships aren't just SHOWN as slow, they are also REFERRED to as slow.

A perfect example of the lack of bigger picture, as well as showing you can't make those claims with B5, is one of the tech links you gave in an earlier post. In it, the writer uses a picture of a screen showing the info of a Minbari Warcruiser to point out such ships weaponry. A little later on there's a picture of one Minbari cruiser firing on another on, vertically slicing through a good section of the ship, and the claim is that it just sliced through hundreds of meters in a single second. Hundreds with me is at the very least 300, and more like 500 to more.

Of course now we go back to the computer screen used to show the ship's armament, and lo and behold: length 300 meters, speed .2cs. So seeing as a Minbari ship's max height is about the same as the max length, at most that could be only 75 meters. Also, the .2cs show that not only did they make the CGI look like they were slow, they actually WERE slow.

Maybe we should discuss the PHIOTON TORPEDO inconsistency? Or just accept that Imperial ships have design flaws that can show up on screen like Minbari warcruisers? I don't use EU shield strngth claims. I use the unscathed video images of ISDs after taking Mon Calamari cruiser fire to check Mr. Wongs shield claims.

The shooting strength of the Mon, of course being ridiculously enhanced in power via the EU.

Me, I take visuals as an artist interpretation of what happened, not 'real', or 'documentary', while looking at the bigger picture. If photon torpedoes are consistently refered to as multi MT explosive power, and Quantum torpedoes as 200+MT explosive power than every time we see one used at full load, there's a big giant fireball as we've seen on occasion; even if the SFX guys didn't show them on screen.

Similarly, Star Wars never showed, let hear, or anything else about weapons with a gunner on ISDs and other ships that would level an entire continent with single shot (or miss of a ship), therefor, they do not exist; no matter that an asteroid visual and load of books may say they do.

Or the Imperial shield systems might, reasonably, like any system under load degrade with sustained strain and fail. If you noticed the ISDs plowed through much of the asteroid field and shrugged off impacts as well as shot some of the larger rocks despite the misgivings.

Except that according to the EU and Mike Wong and company they don't; it doesn't matter how much you fire into it, there's a bottomless pit sink that can absorb any size of power instantly and then bleed the energy out. Only if it can't bleed it out fast enough does one get damage. Brilliant logic, truly.

I always wondered why the Imperials didn't send in fighters and just hang outside the asteroid field to shoot the Falcon when the TIEs flushed it out from among the rocks

Now we get into Lucas' SCIENCE. You have read me complain that he knows nothing about science? See earlier my comments on his pathetic treatment of ground combat.

Frankly the only nitwits dumber than George, who have less understanding of what is likely possible for empires that build two kilometer long spaceships or in the case of the Feds 700 meter spaceships is Berman, Bragga, Taylor, and of course the infamous RDM.

At least I can point to GROPOS and show that JMS has a clue!

Cheers.

:shrugs: Again; I look at Berma Trek with a TOS filter.

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

The explosion of the saucer started in the saucer, in the middle of the saucer, nowerhere near the impulse engines. That explosion isn't the Galaxy-class, it's the Dominion's ship energy plant explosion.

Sorry, but that is baloney.

I've viewed that footage at least a hundred times. Odyssey in the near shot is seen in starboard low front quarter aspect; takes the ramming just above the deflector dish under the saucer. It is the JemHadar fighter that explodes in the near shot under the saucer, spinning its port wing and nacelle off to impact into the Odyssey's starboard warp nacelle.

No, you couldn't argue super strength from the B5's tech and statements; not if you want to look foolish and be ignored. This is where "bigger picture" comes in. B5 ships aren't just SHOWN as slow, they are also REFERRED to as slow.

Don't try to argue dialog. not with the Berman Trek mismatch between words and pictures.

A perfect example of the lack of bigger picture, as well as showing you can't make those claims with B5, is one of the tech links you gave in an earlier post. In it, the writer uses a picture of a screen showing the info of a Minbari Warcruiser to point out such ships weaponry. A little later on there's a picture of one Minbari cruiser firing on another on, vertically slicing through a good section of the ship, and the claim is that it just sliced through hundreds of meters in a single second. Hundreds with me is at the very least 300, and more like 500 to more.

Easy to explain. Ever hear of stealth? It is actually more properly called low observable. Which means that when you fly alongside a B-2 bomber you see with your eyes an object the size of a 737, while your radar illuminates it and returns an echo that your computer analyzes and informs you is the size of a Cessna turbo-prop. However, the point is noted. It in the real world is called a continuity error.

Most everybody has them at some time(phaser ourtput). You go with the best evidence in the aggregate to form an explanation and not what one dot out of mean datum point shows.

Of course now we go back to the computer screen used to show the ship's armament, and lo and behold: length 300 meters, speed .2cs. So seeing as a Minbari ship's max height is about the same as the max length, at most that could be only 75 meters. Also, the .2cs show that not only did they make the CGI look like they were slow, they actually WERE slow.

Ahem. Ganymede to Jupiter, Battlecrab in hot pursuit, Whitestar dives into the Jovian atmosphere, elapsed time thirty eight seconds, one continuous sequence no cuts, approximate computed average velocity 0.9 c, Agamemnon start point Ganymede after arriving to investigate destroyed base; moves to Jupiter in pursuit of Whitestar and Battlecrab, elapsed time 7 minutes-Agammemnon's average speed computed 2381 kilometers per second. Those are MINIMUMS.

The shooting strength of the Mon, of course being ridiculously enhanced in power via the EU.

Shooting power of the Mon being extrapolated from their own performance as seen in ROTJ.

Me, I take visuals as an artist interpretation of what happened, not 'real', or 'documentary', while looking at the bigger picture. If photon torpedoes are consistently refered to as multi MT explosive power, and Quantum torpedoes as 200+MT explosive power than every time we see one used at full load, there's a big giant fireball as we've seen on occasion; even if the SFX guys didn't show them on screen.

Engineer viewpoint. If I see a two hundred diameter meter sphere at maximum scaled strobe flash that expands to dull red in less than half a second, that is a 2-5 kiloton nuclear event-not a 200 megaton event no matter how much I wish it to be.

Similarly, Star Wars never showed, let hear, or anything else about weapons with a gunner on ISDs and other ships that would level an entire continent with single shot (or miss of a ship), therefor, they do not exist; no matter that an asteroid visual and load of books may say they do.

BDZ is unproven. Asteroid shot is proven. Capabiliy is capability.

Except that according to the EU and Mike Wong and company they don't; it doesn't matter how much you fire into it, there's a bottomless pit sink that can absorb any size of power instantly and then bleed the energy out. Only if it can't bleed it out fast enough does one get damage. Brilliant logic, truly.

The visual evidence screams shield failure after substained bombardment(strain load) Mike Wong notwithstanding. He and I part company there. Poe also disagrees with him on that point.

:shrugs: Again; I look at Berma Trek with a TOS filter.

I look at Berman Trek with a TOS filter as well. It does not exist. It is a Kirk nightmare he dreams of what the Feds could become if he and people like him don't stop the bureaucrats--like Enterprise(TM) is a holodeck illusion within the nightmare.

Cheers.

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

A perfect example of the lack of bigger picture, as well as showing you can't make those claims with B5, is one of the tech links you gave in an earlier post. In it, the writer uses a picture of a screen showing the info of a Minbari Warcruiser to point out such ships weaponry. A little later on there's a picture of one Minbari cruiser firing on another on, vertically slicing through a good section of the ship, and the claim is that it just sliced through hundreds of meters in a single second. Hundreds with me is at the very least 300, and more like 500 to more.

Easy to explain. Ever hear of stealth? It is actually more properly called low observable. Which means that when you fly alongside a B-2 bomber you see with your eyes an object the size of a 737, while your radar illuminates it and returns an echo that your computer analyzes and informs you is the size of a Cessna turbo-prop. However, the point is noted. It in the real world is called a continuity error.

Except that the screen isn't a computer read out of a sensor show; it's the readout of a database, and Minbari ships head their stealth OFF on many an occasion.

Ahem. Ganymede to Jupiter, Battlecrab in hot pursuit, Whitestar dives into the Jovian atmosphere, elapsed time thirty eight seconds, one continuous sequence no cuts, approximate computed average velocity 0.9 c, Agamemnon start point Ganymede after arriving to investigate destroyed base; moves to Jupiter in pursuit of Whitestar and Battlecrab, elapsed time 7 minutes-Agammemnon's average speed computed 2381 kilometers per second. Those are MINIMUMS.

A white star is not a minbari war cruiser, the white star is quite a bit faster and more maneuverable. 2381 kilometers per second isn't even a hundrethst of a percent of c, let alone in the tenth range.

Shooting power of the Mon being extrapolated from their own performance as seen in ROTJ.

Against a pathetic vessel it becomes pathetic firepower.

Engineer viewpoint. If I see a two hundred diameter meter sphere at maximum scaled strobe flash that expands to dull red in less than half a second, that is a 2-5 kiloton nuclear event-not a 200 megaton event no matter how much I wish it to be.

And to me, I don't care. The picture is just the SFX guy's artist's impression; not what actually happened.

BDZ is unproven. Asteroid shot is proven. Capabiliy is capability.

Again, I don't care about a single asteroid shot in 6 films. If the firepower range is destroys entire asteroids, and wipes out continents, the battle of Curoscent in RotS would have leveled the planetary city with the ground. Every miss - and there are a lot - would have been giant fire balls vaporizing pieces of the planet with 1000 kilomter radius. They just don't have that kind of power, they don't.