The Winner of the US Presidential Election Is, Again...

[julix]

Thanks Micheleh.....
that was what I was trying to say and your post was very well said!!!
Thank you

[braxiss]

bush!!!!

yea!!!!!!!!!!!

now that that's over with let's get back to donig what we do best, enjoying fleets

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by BST

"Red Rocks"? -- aren't they in Colorado?

I thought it was Utah.



Anyway...

Even though I'm on the "winning" side, I take no joy in it. Even though there are certain individual aspects of this administration's policies that I find acceptable (one of them, in fact, is responsible for my decision to vote the way I did), I felt that regardless of who won this election the next four years will bring hardship and suffering to our nation. It was a matter of choosing what issues I care about that I'm going to have to fight my government over.

At least with this President and a Republican Congress, I don't have to worry as much about them taking my guns away. Which is good - I might need them.

I am
Dawg

I am glad to see Kerry make a good concession speech that was both optimistic and held out some hope we may see a reduction in the divisiveness we have seen over the past 4 years. Let's hope he and his party are able to live up to their words. In a time of war I wish we were a more united nation.

[Rowan]

Even though this is not my country's election I feel devastated, nauseous and terrified for the future just needed to say that...

[Eric Paddon]

"Even though this is not my country's election I feel devastated, nauseous and terrified for the future just needed to say that... "

I don't mean to inflame things but I think Americans ought to have the right to decide who is better qualified to lead them. If America is not your country then why should you be concerned over what we do since Bush isn't going to have anything to do with your taxes, appointing judges making decisions that impact your life, and whether people from your nation go to war or not etc. You should be concerned more with who you get to vote for in your own country and let us be in control of our own destiny.

One thing (among many) that drove up voter turnout for Bush was considerable resentment over the idea of foreign countries trying to meddle in the election, especially the Guardian's stunt over targeting voters in Ohio (which was then followed by one of their columnists wishing for someone to assassinate the president).

[Darth Marley]

Maybe we should draft Canadians to serve in our Imperialistic war of oppression?

Join the dark side.

Originally Posted by Rowan

Even though this is not my country's election I feel devastated, nauseous and terrified for the future just needed to say that...

The U.S. system is designed so that no one can do much domestically that isn't supported by a wide constituency. I don't think you will see dramatic changes inside America.

The War in Iraq will be going on the same way no matter which one was elected. Both were going to build up the Iraqi Army as rapidly as possible and in time reduce American forces as the Iraqis handle their own security.

The biggest difference between the two probably would be how they would handle Iran. I doubt Kerry would have done anything in the end but let them get the nuclear weapons. Bush may take military action on Iran if diplomacy fails.

America is like a ship going down a river. The President may steer it to the right or left bank but the river continues the ship toward the sea.

If Al Gore was President in 2001, 9/11 still would have happened and I don't think that much would really have been different. We see a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking on Bush by people who would have done the same thing if they didn't have 20/20 hindsight.

[BST]

Originally Posted by Darth Marley

Maybe we should draft Canadians to serve in our Imperialistic war of oppression?

Join the dark side.

Darth,

You're too much.

[BST]

Originally Posted by Rowan

Even though this is not my country's election I feel devastated, nauseous and terrified for the future
just needed to say that...

Why?

Don't worry Rowan. We won't invade Canada and we definitely can't force Canada to help us. I will continue making my beer of choice Canadian (Molson).

[Dawg]

When I am Emperor the Canadians will join us willingly....

MWAHAHAHAHA





I am
Dawg

[Micheleh]

That might not be such a bad thing. Then we could get our meds, and they could get decent cigarettes. (And not those euro things in the sissy boxes.)

*Joke

[warhammerdriver]

For all the Kerry supporters--------have a

For all the Bush supporters--------have a

For all the---aww heck, let's all have a and celebrate the fact that the election is OVER!

[braxiss]

Originally Posted by warhammerdriver

For all the Kerry supporters--------have a

For all the Bush supporters--------have a

For all the---aww heck, let's all have a and celebrate the fact that the election is OVER!

i can agree to those terms

[The 14th Colony]

And for all you President Hussein supporters, have a...a...a...a up the wazzoo!



Thank you warhammer, don't mind if I do.

[harryfielder]

There's an old saying in the UK,,,,
''Yer pays yer money and yer makes yer choice''

[jewels]

Hey, where did those Cylon jack-o-lanterns come from? Those are funny!

[jewels]

Originally Posted by kingfish

BUSH!!!!!!!



I didn't vote. Glad he won!!!!!!!

Why didn't you vote? The important thing would have been that you voted, I would think. :confused:

[Spike The Cylon]

Originally Posted by warhammerdriver

For all the Kerry supporters--------have a

For all the Bush supporters--------have a

For all the---aww heck, let's all have a and celebrate the fact that the election is OVER!

Here here!

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

I don't mean to inflame things but I think Americans ought to have the right to decide who is better qualified to lead them. If America is not your country then why should you be concerned over what we do since Bush isn't going to have anything to do with your taxes, appointing judges making decisions that impact your life, and whether people from your nation go to war or not etc. You should be concerned more with who you get to vote for in your own country and let us be in control of our own destiny.

Your not inflaming things Eric I completely agree American’s have the right to decide such things. That goes without saying I’m not bemoaning your right. But it is clear from your statement that you are not aware of how much of an impact the US has on Canada and my life as a Canadian citizen.

I think it’s ironic that Americans dislike it when others take an interest in what goes on in their country since they are always taking an interest in everyone else’s country - sounds like a double standard to me.

If Americans can put their FBI and DEA in my country, test their nuclear war head delivery system on my country’s soil, and send their ambassador to my parliament and have them constantly harass my government over our desire to decriminalize marijuana or else the American government will be “upset” with us and create longer delays at the border if we fail to comply then you bet I’m going to have an opinion on who you elect!

Some of the ways in which Canada is affected by American policy:

Ever since 9/11 The American border has been negatively affecting our truckers by creating longer waits and more paper work which takes up more time which then drives up the cost of transportation of goods which in turn drives up the price of these goods.

Or lets look at the soft wood lumber industry in BC we produce 60% of all softwood in all of Canada it is one of the top 10 exports of Canada but the US has been imposing an illegal tariff against Canadian soft wood lumber. We have gone to court on several occasions over this even taken it to independent world courts like the World Trade Organisation and we have won every time yet the US still continues with these actions.

Or let’s look at the Sumas Energy 2 plant. The Canadian National Energy board and Canadian citizens have protested the use of Canadian publicly owned high voltage transmission lines by a proposed American owned Washington stated power production facility. The reason is it would be located in a sensitive air shed and that all of the pollution produced by this plant would travel north to Canada (this has been determined by environmental studies) and affect one quarter of BC’s population. In retaliation the American developer has launched a civil lawsuit against the Canadian National Energy Board and the listed protesters. It’s our power lines on our land and our air about to be affected yet we are being sued for opposing this plan.

How about the U.S. border remaining closed to Canadian cattle and beef products eight months after a single case of mad cow disease was discovered in a western Canada herd. The border closing has had a devastating impact on Canada’s cattle industry, which until last May exported 70 percent of its beef to the U.S. market.

Or how about the following
“Sun Belt Water Inc. of Santa Barbara, California., is suing the Canadian government because the company lost a contract to export water to California when the government of British Columbia banned the export of bulk water in 1991. Although Sun Belt's agreement was with a Canadian company, Snowcap, and not the B.C. government, Sun Belt alleges the ban contravenes NAFTA and is seeking $400-million in damages. The corporation understands NAFTA gives it the right to shape Canadian government policy. "Because of NAFTA, we are now stakeholders in the national water policy in Canada," declared Jack Lindsay, its chief executive.”

US as stakeholders in the national water policy of my Country??

Lets look at the recently passed Patriot Act (the one that hardly any of the Senators read before passing) and how it affects Canada. British Columbia's top privacy official is looking into complaints right now that the U.S. Patriot Act allows the FBI to use U.S. firms -- and their foreign subsidiaries -- to gain access to Canadians' medical and financial records. This law gives the FBI broad powers to collect information from companies without the subjects of the probe knowing they are under investigation and as the federal Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada points out "The issue of transfers of personal information across borders goes to the heart of national sovereignty as well as to Canadianidentity,"

Then there is the Sugar, Wheat, and Salmon issues, BC boundary dispute with Alaska and our rights to the North West passage that Americans would like to make into international waters and I could go on and on and on.

So before you go telling me that what happens in the States doesn’t concern me or my country take a moment to look at and think about how the States is in fact impacting not only Canada but many other nations as well.

Also making comments about invading Canada is only funny if that was something the US never does but that is not the case (the US has all ready tried this 5 times in Canada alone) and if the tables were turned I don’t imagine for a moment you would think it funny especially since you take exception to my simply commenting on your elections.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely - as a world super power you have no one to police you but yourselves and this is a scary concept especially when the US does not listen to the rest of us. It is only self restraint that protects the rest of us and so far I just haven’t seen that demonstrated to the point were I can trust.

[Dawg]

If I may say - that was well spoken, Rowan. Sometimes we forget in defending our own sovereignty that what we do does have an affect outside our borders. And this is particularly true as the "global economy" becomes just that.

What we must remember is that what we do as nations have effects on other nations, intended or otherwise.

I am
Dawg

[Darth Marley]

Well, a lot of those issues cut both ways.
Truckers, I know a lot about international transportation, it is something that effects the economy on both sides.

Lumber tariffs, I agree completely, this is a NAFTA and GATT violation, but perhaps you should take another look at which US political party is more friendly to free trade. I can tell you with authority, it is the party that won this time.

Cannabis legalization? Plenty of ballot initiatives on this over here.
If any party is going to "legalize it" here, it will be a conservative party. The liberals do not have the yarbles or the credibility, they fear the issue.

Matters of post 9/11 security I have little issue with. So what is what some think of as "personal" information is transferred? Life is not so private as we would like to think.
If it is something I could get my hands on from my computer, I would be more worried if my government was not collecting it.

So, I understand why you would be concerned with US politics, I cannot understand why you think the choice made in this election is such a bad one.

Especially after the global news reports come in, and the noble states of Europe reach the conclusion that we Americans are idiots, and that they can no longer blame Bush, but must blame America as well.

[BST]

I think it’s ironic that Americans dislike it when others take an interest in what goes on in their country since they are always taking an interest in everyone else’s country - sounds like a double standard to me.

Regarding other countries (NOT Canada) -- when other countries get out of the welfare line that begins at the US border and begin to take care of their own affairs, themselves, maybe then, we won't have as much of an interest in their country. While US monies are providing backbone support to the economies of other countries, we have every right to question the policies and actions of those other countries.



Regarding Canada -- the residents of Canada have long been America's closest friend, ally, and biggest trading partner. I truly am sorry for any troubles that US companies may be causing and wish no ill will toward our northern neighbors.

The issue of 9/11 security procedures stems, primarily (at least based on what I have read in various publications), that the entry point of many "questionable" visitors is via Canada. Ideally, there should be coordination amongst the security organizations from both countries (we both need to be on the same page since Canada is just as vulnerable as the US, to a terrorist attack).

[BST]

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely - as a world super power you have no one to police you but yourselves and this is a scary concept especially when the US does not listen to the rest of us. It is only self restraint that protects the rest of us and so far I just haven’t seen that demonstrated to the point were I can trust.

The following are excerpts from President Bush's 1st post-9/11 speech, given to a Joint Session of Congress, on September 20, 2001:

I submit those remarks as my response. We will NEVER forget what happened on September 11, 2001 and we will take whatever steps necessary to ensure that it NEVER happens again, whether it be in this country or in others. President Bush was right, and is right, it is EVERYONE's fight -- everyone that believes in freedom and democracy, that is.

I support the above remarks, 100%, and speaking for myself, that will not waver.

[Eric Paddon]

"I think it’s ironic that Americans dislike it when others take an interest in what goes on in their country since they are always taking an interest in everyone else’s country - sounds like a double standard to me. "

Hardly. The only thing Americans are interested in is democracy and the opportunity for people to make their choice of leader freely. Watching elections of other countries in a free society can produce at best some happiness or disappointment over what affects US interests, but no sense of being "frightened." And as an American I can state quite categorically that I resent it deeply when a British tabloid rag has the nerve to say on it's front page "How can 60 million people be so dumb?", with this following an attempt to meddle in the election by harassing Ohio residents with letters telling them to vote for Kerry and one of their columnists calling for Bush's assassination.

"my government over our desire to decriminalize marijuana or else the American government will be “upset” with us"

We have a right to express our concerns over what is in the American national interest especially if decriminalized use of marijuana in Canada leads to severe problems in the drug war in our own country. But you are talking about an issue that would not involve a substantive change in policy on America's part no matter who was elected since John Kerry and the Democrats aren't for decriminalizing it in this country either. Likewise, the other things you address that are not related to the War on Terror are not issues that would lead to substantive changes in US policy in the event of a change of administrations, or would be affected much one way or the other (Certainly not to the point of having to be frightened over the outcome.)

"Ever since 9/11 The American border has been negatively affecting our truckers by creating longer waits and more paper work which takes up more time which then drives up the cost of transportation of goods which in turn drives up the price of these goods. "

That's because we were attacked and saw 3000 of our citizens murdered because terrorist thugs took advantage of lax ways of getting into this country (not by Canada I admit) and there is no way that the US is going to let laxity at our borders prevent that from happening again. This too is something that would not change no matter who is president.

"Lets look at the recently passed Patriot Act (the one that hardly any of the Senators read before passing)"

Wrong. They read it, and then some people who voted for it shamefully backed away later on in order to co-opt an extremist wing of their party because they put their finger to the wind to determine their subsequent views.

"Also making comments about invading Canada is only funny if that was something the US never does but that is not the case (the US has all ready tried this 5 times in Canada alone) "

The last time being in 1812 which is a pretty long time to hold a grudge if you ask me.

"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely - as a world super power you have no one to police you but yourselves and this is a scary concept especially when the US does not listen to the rest of us. "

Except that when the "rest" includes a corrupt organization like the UN which abetted Saddam Hussein with it's crooked oil for food program, and countries who had a vested crooked financial interest in keeping Saddam Hussein in power (France and Germany), and all of them showing a shocking disregard for the magnitude of the war against America waged by terrorists in the last decade culminating in September 11, I think you have to understand why the vast majority of Americans get more than a little irritated when we get lectured on our supposed "arrogance".

[Darth Marley]

Oh, come on EP.
If you think Canadians smoking grass (or Americans for that matter) is any kind of threat, then it makes all of your threat assesments seem silly.

Anyone that looks at the history of the drug war can see that it was always founded on a lie, and usually a racist lie at that.

As long as our government acts as though an individual intoxicating themself in their own home is valid cause to knock their door down, then we are a nation of hypocrites that have turned our back on our founding principles.

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by Darth Marley

Oh, come on EP.
If you think Canadians smoking grass (or Americans for that matter) is any kind of threat, then it makes all of your threat assesments seem silly.

My point is simply that when US policy is not for the free and easy distribution of an illegal drug, and that policy is supported by the majority of the country, then America's leaders have a right to be concerned over policy actions of another country that can impact American policy at home. And that John Kerry wouldn't do that policy any differently since the only American political party on record for the legalization of marijuana is the Libertarian Party, which draws less than 1 percent in each election.

[Darth Marley]

By the same logic, the Canadians would be justified with a pre-emptive attack on us for interfering with their policies.

This is one easy case to prove when it comes to making the claim that our leaders are lying.

They put ads on TV suggesting that if I buy cannabis grown in Humbolt County, or in a basement down the street, that some of that money is going to UBL, or financing the murder of judges.
This is an outright lie.

Perhaps you did not know that the Prohibition Party still runs candidates?

[Eric Paddon]

I'm afraid you're turning this into a bit of a sideshow. The point had to do with policy disagreements between nations in the usual course of diplomacy, and the bottom line is that the marijuana example is a very weak one to use to talk about being "frightened" over the results when the election didn't even involve a choice of candidates with different perspectives on that particular issue.

I think the comments of a British newspaper that I cited get more to the heart of the matter on this particular one regarding American resentment of foreign attempts to meddle and comment sanctimoniously on how we exercised our right to vote.