Anime debate

[Eric Paddon]

"An animated version means that the story doesn't have to be 25 years laters"

Except that this confuses the issue of what it is a person like me wants to see, and that is a continuation in the *medium of live action*, because nothing less than that will mean a true continuation from my standpoint. I do not place a premium on having to pick up the story from the end of HOG because we've had comic books that do that, and we have a vast multitude of fanfic (a lot written by me) that does that, so there is nothing new whatsoever for me in terms of seeing a non-live action treatment of TOS. What this is all about as I see it is continuing TOS in a particular medium with flesh and blood actors, and anything less than that you can forget it as far as I'm concerned.

[Gemini1999]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

What this is all about as I see it is continuing TOS in a particular medium with flesh and blood actors, and anything less than that you can forget it as far as I'm concerned.

Eric -

What if Tom DeSanto had gotten clearance from Universal to produce the animated BSG feature that was recently talked about? Are you saying that if it had gotten the greenlight, that you would give it a miss?

I know that being an animated feature would probably limit it when it came to sequels, etc., but if the story was a good one and the animation was top of the line, wouldn't you be curious what it was like? Especially if the "buzz" on it was good....

Just wondering...

Bryan

[Eric Paddon]

I'd watch it, but I'd still have a very bad taste in my mouth that this was the thing we were given as our "official" continuation because the whole genre of animation is nothing more than a moving comic book to me, and I would greet the emergence of an animated version as no different than seeing another comic book, and the last thing I would ever consider any comic book version of TOS is our be-all, end-all solution to the problem we've been facing for 25 years.

[Titon]

I'd watch it, but I'd still have a very bad taste in my mouth that this was the thing we were given as our "official" continuation because the whole genre of animation is nothing more than a moving comic book to me, and I would greet the emergence of an animated version as no different than seeing another comic book, and the last thing I would ever consider any comic book version of TOS is our be-all, end-all solution to the problem we've been facing for 25 years.

Just exactly what do you people want? Presently there is no way Universal is going to green light a continuation project concerning the TOS. For one it would undermine there belief in Ron Moore.

Now if DeSanto were to get a chance to produce an animated style Galactica would you not back it? I surely would since in all honesty it *could* lead to a live action feature. Say he has a chance to bring us up to speed without sinking major dollars into a grand production. He could tell the story of how the Fleet progressed into the future. In essance *bridge* the old cast to a new cast. Personally i could care less about the old cast. For me having an entirely new cast of characters is the only way to really go now anyways. Every day that goes by less and less of the old cast becomes a moot point.

Now before anyone blasts away and codemns my thoughts on this saying if your going to do an animation why not just do a continuation movie. Well frankly that isn't going to happen. Not with Glen Larson in charge. IF DeSanto can accomplish getting the rights to do a BG animated series this gives him the window to create a new world to follow and an updated continuation later. Plain and simple. You have to walk before you can crawl.

Personally from what i've seen doing a Galactica animated series would kick astrums.

[Gemini1999]

Originally Posted by Titon

Now if DeSanto were to get a chance to produce an animated style Galactica would you not back it? I surely would since in all honesty it *could* lead to a live action feature. Say he has a chance to bring us up to speed without sinking major dollars into a grand production. He could tell the story of how the Fleet progressed into the future. In essance *bridge* the old cast to a new cast.

Don -

That's an excellent point. BSG fandom as a whole is always going on about what they don't want. The thing of it is, if DeSanto were able to produce an animated feature film, Universal (or someone) could get it into the theaters and gauge what kind of financial interest there really is. If it were a big hit, that studio might sit back and say: "Wow, we really underestimated this..." Therin, lies the possibility of something bigger coming after. If it wasn't a big hit, but was able to make back their money along with some margin of profit, then the reaction would be: "Well, we heard there was an interest, but in the end, it just wasn't there". Fans wouldn't get the live action movie they wanted, but they would get some story closure.

In the end, if something is produced and fans don't respond to it, what more can the studios do? Universal and SciFi are already happy with the performance and critical success of what they have, they're not really obligated to do much more.

Fans may not drive the creative process, but in the end, they do determine how successful a film is, or isn't.

Best,
Bryan

[bsg1fan1975]

sorry but nothing but live action will fit for me. I like watching people, not someone's idea of how a person should look and act! Give me human beings!

[Eric Paddon]

Agreed. And if animation were being done to do a "next generation" thing, that becomes an idea that's more pointless from my standpoint.

Neither animation, nor comic books, nor novels (especially not Richard Hatch's) are my idea of trying to give us "closure" to TOS because as far as I'm concerned any one of those mediums is just fanfic with a professional veneer and that is a genre I've satisfied myself in as far as the future TOS storyline goes more times than I can count (and frankly, I think the real tragedy is that TOS fanbase often fails to appreciate how much good creativity is out there in that area). The only thing that has any potential to lay claim to being a canon style creation is something in the live action medium and nothing else can ever be satisfactory to me personally (it might to others but not me) and give me a sense that at long last we finally achieved some vindication for our 25 years of patience.

An animated feature film is not going to lead to any kind of live action feature. Especially since all you do there is muddy the issue on which storyline do you then follow, and does live action that follows animated have to follow the storyline of animated to avoid confusion or are you then starting over again?

[jewels]

Originally Posted by Titon

Now if DeSanto were to get a chance to produce an animated style Galactica would you not back it? I surely would since in all honesty it *could* lead to a live action feature. Say he has a chance to bring us up to speed without sinking major dollars into a grand production. He could tell the story of how the Fleet progressed into the future. In essance *bridge* the old cast to a new cast. Personally i could care less about the old cast. For me having an entirely new cast of characters is the only way to really go now anyways. Every day that goes by less and less of the old cast becomes a moot point.

Now before anyone blasts away and codemns my thoughts on this saying if your going to do an animation why not just do a continuation movie. Well frankly that isn't going to happen. Not with Glen Larson in charge. IF DeSanto can accomplish getting the rights to do a BG animated series this gives him the window to create a new world to follow and an updated continuation later. Plain and simple. You have to walk before you can crawl.

Personally from what i've seen doing a Galactica animated series would kick astrums.

If DeSanto could get an animated movie, series or whatever put together, I'd be there will bells on after kidnapping my brother who likes the new series, (he's got to see T.D.'s work if he likes RDM's).

I think going to anime is a clever route. You can fill in the time gap, using the voices everyone knows and loves, then take it into whatever story stage you wish when you transition into live action. Could be like the 2nd coming, could be 100 yahren later, depending on what happened in the series of anime's.

The lower budgets could help it get into a Cartoon Network adult swim spot or go direct to DVD. Yet the story would still get accomplished and told.

Much as I'd love to see our actors again, live, I would treasure anything true to the lore that let them participate at all. I have a lot of respect, appreciation and some genuine affection for our cast. The one I'd really want to see live again is Dirk, but I think a lot of that is just I think he did Starbuck in a manner that can't quite be captured by anyone else and there is something potentially vindictive of how well the original Starbuck worked that just leaves me wishing for the opportunity to arise, just once, to see him do Starbuck again. I think it was sensing the wistfulness when he talked about DeSanto's 50 yr. old Starbuck. He'd have liked to play him again, and I wish he would have that opportunity.

Anime could work for me. Especially if it could bridge to other things. Especially if it went back into the realm of likeable epic heroes, with hope.

Jewels

[repcisg]

A live action film has about as much chance of being made as I have being selected to do Commander Cain for TNS.

So the real question is, if an animated film were made, would you watch it?

[kingfish]

Originally Posted by repcisg

A live action film has about as much chance of being made as I have being selected to do Commander Cain for TNS.

So the real question is, if an animated film were made, would you watch it?

If there was no chance what was the point of CFF? Does Larson hold the movie rights or not? What about a direct to DVD continuation which is being discussed at Cylon Alliance. We are becoming like Universal, not knowing what the right or left hand is doing. Finally if I had a choice of cartoon Galactica or the Second Coming, well you know what I would chose.

[jewels]

Originally Posted by repcisg

A live action film has about as much chance of being made as I have being selected to do Commander Cain for TNS.

So the real question is, if an animated film were made, would you watch it?

Yes. And I'd want the DVD if it was true to TOS's mythos and characters.

[Eric Paddon]

That is a very good point, Paul, because was this whole CF campaign aimed at getting something lesser like an animated version off the ground?

At any rate, what this is proving is my original point made before the Moore series began airing is that its potential for success could only hurt the chances of true continuation, and not enhance it, as some people claimed to justify taking an overly conciliatory tone toward it.

[Gemini1999]

Originally Posted by kingfish

If there was no chance what was the point of CFF? Does Larson hold the movie rights or not? What about a direct to DVD continuation which is being discussed at Cylon Alliance. We are becoming like Universal, not knowing what the right or left hand is doing. Finally if I had a choice of cartoon Galactica or the Second Coming, well you know what I would chose.

Paul -

The one thing about CFF is the timing that it was done. It was done prior to the release of TNS in the UK. I'm sure that there were most that thought that it would capitalize on the visiblity of the BSG name being so prominent in the media even if it wasn't a continuation story. I'm also sure that there are those that thought that TNS would run it's 13 episodes and that would be that, but as it turns out, it's not the case with 20 more episodes on order.

One of the things that nobody knew about was that Tom DeSanto was proposing an animated feature or series to Universal until it was turned down. In that respect, at least Tom is thinking of the original series in some way and recognizes that there would be an audience for it.

I know that I've seen conversations at Cylon Alliance regarding "CFF II", which basically is a refocusing, or retooling of the goals for a direct-to-DVD film of some sort. The problems there have to do with how to get it made, not the impetus behind such a project. I would like to see some of the original stars, but I wouldn't object to a project like Star Trek: New Voyages where they recast everyone and start telling new stories altogether. The stumbling block there would be Universal coming in and putting a kibosh on the whole thing. They've been none too gracious to the TOS-minded community and probably wouldn't like to see even a fan produced film take off.

If someone out there has the cahones to produce, direct, or whatever a feature film, animated feature or series, I'll be there to support it as long as the story is good and the production is of decent quality and respectful of the BSG mythos.

As for those that would say that "Galactica is dead".... Well, I don't know how to really address that. I see that as an individual opinion, but I don't share it, nor will subscribe to it. If that were true, we might as well turn Fleets into a TNS site, or close it down altogther.

I guess that one of my biggest questions regarding fandom would be for those that say they are tired of talking about or discussing TOS. How do you keep TOS alive in your heart or introduce it to people that never saw it when you feel that way? And if you do feel that way, then why get disgruntled when people aren't respectful of it?

Like I said, I always see people come out of the woodwork when someone makes a proposition for a new BSG project. Most of them come out to run the idea down or say that they won's support the idea. When dealing with people of that kind of thinking, you are unwittingly dealing yourself out of the game. There isn't a director or network around that cares what people think when they aren't interested or won't watch something. You can sit around a crab about what you don't like until the cows come home, but it won't change anything. TPTB basically listen to those that do watch or do support whatever effort they are funding. They may not tailor-make it to your specifications, but if you are watching, then they will at least listen, if nothing else.

Best,
Bryan

[Titon]

One of the things that nobody knew about was that Tom DeSanto was proposing an animated feature or series to Universal until it was turned down.

Are you sure about that?



There's only one person that's stopping this from happening. ONE!

[Eric Paddon]

Bryan, I'm not running down what fans want to do. What I question is the idea that seems to get produced that fan-oriented projects or animated versions can be seen as the be-all, end-all solution to the matter of an "official continuation" that we waited 25 years to see. As a fanfic writer, I can appreciate what other people do, even things that are more ambitious in some areas, but one thing I am not going to do is elevate a fan-created end product to a higher level of importance than the average fanfic story in terms of producing a "canon" version of what ultimately happened. The only thing that can ever lay claim to doing that , as I see it, is something that has to be produced in the live-action genre or else it's just part of something that I think TOS fandom is not suffering from a shortage of at this particular time, and hasn't for awhile. There are *400* stories of some degree or another that are on the main fanfic site, there are several more here, there are Hatch novels for those who like them, and we might even see new comic book versions again of TOS someday. Fan-based creativity has never been lacking for TOS to me.

[Titon]

By the way, i really like this discussion.

Now to ask flat out Eric, what exactly are you wishing for? Or for all other's what would be exceptable?

In the long run you will never satify everyone, plain and simple. Say Larson finally put's the bottle down and discusses a motion picture event. One of the main reasons you see nothing out of him is no one will touch his scripts with a 10 foot pole. The scripts do not revolve around the Galactica at all but they do revolve around the Pegasus and possibly the Atlantis. Here we are sitting with our hands tied because Glen won't commit to BATTLESTAR GALACTICA. He doesn't want Battlestar Galactica.

So here are the 2 choices you presently have:

1. Glen Larson-Retains the movie rights and will not produce anything called Battlestar Galactica. Sit's on his hands and never relinquishes the movie rights=fans get nothing.

2. Tom DeSanto-Is able to pry the rights away from Larson and will do something called Battlestar Galactica. Not Battlestar Pegasus, not Battlestar Atlantis=fans get something.

With Glen you have basically nothing. He will not do a movie.
With DeSanto you have something. He will do a movie or some sort of cgi series.

Which one do you choose? It's a simple straight forward question. If you say you will not accept *in the begining* some sort of animated series then there is no reason to post about Galactica any longer. TOS is dead to you all. If you say you will accept *in the begining* some sort of animated series then you open yourself to TOS Galactica having a future.

Glen=squat
Tom=A New Hope.

[Eric Paddon]

The options you present to me are ones that frankly don't excite me at all. If DeSanto does it the way you're suggesting, all I can promise is that I wouldn't stand in the way or raise a protest campaign, but I would have no enthusiasm for it whatsoever, and my reaction to what I see would only be judged in the way I judge a fanfic story or one of Hatch's novels. If it isn't live and on film, it's nothing that special from my standpoint.

And FYI, TOS is never going to be dead to me if there is nothing that happens because I still have my own imagination and my own ability to write stories which for the last 12 years has taken up a goodly chunk of my spare time with over 2000 pages of writing, and also a group of fellow fanfic writers I currently coordinate things with in our own second season project. In short, I'm among that group that doesn't need the output of others to produce non-live projects of telling TOS stories to satisfy my basic curiosity because I've already written five different universes worth of stories about what happened next to them and can only find myself impressed by something that's done in the format that TOS first took place in.

[Titon]

If it isn't live and on film, it's nothing that special from my standpoint.[

So your saying that if you can't see it live and on film all other mediums are just a waste? Now i'm not talking just Galactica here, i'm talking about the entire spectrum of *is it live or is it memorex*? Now i can get lost in a good story as well as anyone but i've also found animation to be one of the best things going today. Some of the greatest thearectical motion pictures are nothing but cartoons. Some of them have won academy awards for best motion picture and for creative writing. Some of those that produced these animated movies are the brightest thinking minds in hollywood today. Heck even Richard's GWOM is going to comic first. All i'm saying is you put yourself in a very tight circle with such thinking.

Imagination is what makes things spectacular. You even posted that you've explored TOS's future through your own imagination. So why would someone else's thoughts about how to field a continuation be so shallow?

In the end it's just everyone's opinion on how this could come to be. But i for one would view just about anything as feasible. Especially with a vivid imagination.

[kingfish]

Don from what I read Larson was only doing an Atlantis or Pegasus film if Hatch had won the rights.

[kingfish]

If people wanted the entire thingy recast new voyages style then they would have shut their traps when Larson first announced a BG revival at the 15th anniversary. Larson's project was recast all of the roles and have foghorn leghorn walking Vipers. If that was unacceptible then why would it be acceptible now? I thought the goal was a continuation with the original actors who made the show worth while. In finality, Hatch, Benedict, Jefferson Jr or BUST.

[kingfish]

The ad for CFF clearly shows what fans want Hatch and Benedict as Starbuck and Apollo in a continuation project.

[gmd3d]

I would still go for a cgi with the original actor voices. if a movie was not made I agree with those here that say Galactica can work well if done right in CGI ..
but I do understand Eric and Kingfish POV .
just my thoughts

[Gemini1999]

Originally Posted by Titon

Are you sure about that?



There's only one person that's stopping this from happening. ONE!

Don -

Now, you know that I had no way of knowing about such a thing until most of us heard that it was turned down. I'm sure that you and a few others knew about it prior to that, but you were playing that card close to your vest.

Gee - I can't imagine who that ONE person would be.... Larson? Moore? Am I getting warm?

Bryan

[kingfish]

Maybe after Richard makes millions he can buy the right from Glen?

[kingfish]

Originally Posted by Gemini1999

Don -

Now, you know that I had no way of knowing about such a thing until most of us heard that it was turned down. I'm sure that you and a few others knew about it prior to that, but you were playing that card close to your vest.

Gee - I can't imagine who that ONE person would be.... Larson? Moore? Am I getting warm?

Bryan

Sandy made a number of posts as to the true story of BG at Cylon Alliance.

[Eric Paddon]

"So your saying that if you can't see it live and on film all other mediums are just a waste?"

Waste isn't the right word with me. Redundant is more like it or, "been there, done that." Fine if there's another one to add to the existing roster, but that isn't my idea of what I've been waiting to see in terms of some attempt at something definitive because that can only come when TOS universe is continued in the live action medium.

And no, I am not a fan of animation in general unless it's a vintage Warner Brothers cartoon or an early Flintstones episode. I have never looked at animation as an outlet to entertain myself compared to say, the printed page medium of writing because at least in something written I can envision the flesh and blood actors doing things.

[jewels]

Originally Posted by Gemini1999

Don -

Now, you know that I had no way of knowing about such a thing until most of us heard that it was turned down. I'm sure that you and a few others knew about it prior to that, but you were playing that card close to your vest.

Gee - I can't imagine who that ONE person would be.... Larson? Moore? Am I getting warm?

Bryan

I'm thinking it's higher up the food chain at Skiffy & Studios USA. *sigh* Out of touch morons: the people that like the new show in general, don't like it because of it's name; they like that storytelling style. The people that don't like the show are still drifting in search of "the real story". Those are 2 separate niche markets to exploit.

And who ever is kboshing trying market 2 is more of an idiot than I can comprehend. How many L&O does Uni do in a given week? How much $$ is NBC and TNT coughing up for 1st air and re-airs?

BG may not work in that visible an arena (main networks), but it still can have a goodly profit margin with some diversification. And margin is often a better marker for something being produced than not.

but I will hold my piece until summer 2006 or so. Then I think some extra impetus may magically appear. Don, Sometimes the dreams do work, you know.

Jewels

[peter noble]

I'm seeing a lot of prejudice against animation, I think a lot of people think Disney or Hanna Barbera when animation is mentioned.

The animation I've been seing lately is just as emotionally involving as live action and not as formulaic as a lot of the felgercarb that's spat out of the Hollywood fun factory.

Stuff like Last Exile reminds me of the original Star Wars and BSG, while Love Hina is one of the best comedy romances you'll see.

Animation is just another way of telling a story, like a cave painting originally was or a comic book is today.

I've always rather liked the idea of a "Next Generation" of Galacticans and David Eick's a @&*$£#!

Peter

[kingfish]

Peter, I believe that everybody is thinking Star Trek The Animated Series.

[repcisg]

How can anyone call high end CGI cartoon-ish? Just look at the Lord of the Rings!

But another thought! Universal (NBC) owns the Galactica universe, Glen has the rights to make Galactica and Pegasus movies(feature films - not animation), if NBC says it's OK. they cannot give someone else permision. Conversly NBC holds the animation rights and can assign them to who ever they please. The very fact that they said no to Tom indicates they see this as a potental avenue for a future production.