Battlestar Columbia

[peter noble]

http://resinilluminati.com/showthread.php?p=224835

[Benedict]

Looks quite something. Hats off to these folks who build sublime models.

[Titon]

Pretty cool!

[137th Gebirg]

Interesting take on a hybrid between old & new. Nicely done!

[martok2112]

That looks awesome!

[Senmut]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!

[Lara]

Very very nice..

Just begs to be shot.. I wanna see that baby fly!!

Cheers,
Lara

[gmd3d]

Nice design adaptation,

[TwoBrainedCylon]

The guy who built it has a lot of talent but I'm lukewarm about the actual design. The rail guns seemed oversized in regards to the rest of the model and sincerely, I never liked the open landing bay in the front. If you're gonna attack a target with a battlestar, seems like the last thing you want is to have a big opening where the enemy can fire into your hangers.

Plus, I'm personally not that crazy at seeing the GINO logo slapped on something that primarily looks like a real battlestar. He did it with a lot of style and I know the irritation I feel lays all in me, but its the reaction I have nonetheless.

Great modeling work through.

All my best,


Russell

[Senmut]

I took it as perhaps an earlier design, much earlier in the war. The open bay design would soon be shown to be a problem, especially as the Cylons developed better guns/fighters. What we saw on the show was a later modification.

[TwoBrainedCylon]

If connected to the original series, the humans had been at war with the Cylons for 1000 yahrens (years). That would make the Colonial designers some extremely slow learners.

Admittedly, I'm a total geek about these things so I look at the implications of the modifications rather than just relaxing and thinking they look cool. Its just who I am. Consequently, I presume that since the rail guns are modeled exactly after the GINO rail guns that they are in fact, -- rail guns. That brings an interesting dynamic with the solonite missiles from the original series. It would make the battlestar less vulnerable to large ship attack as a rail gun of the size shown in the model could play all Hell with a moderate size ship assaulting them. Under your premise, that would explain why the Cylons attacked with small fighters as anything larger would be subjected to getting chopped up. They'd also be a damn good defense against large missile attacks from something like a baseship. (In the series, they used the laser turret footage for the Cylon missile batteries but the script proved the Cylons used missiles as well).

If this model were accepted as the Columbia, then the follow-on implication would be that the Colonial designers were damn near incompetent for not maintaining the same weapons on the Galctica and Pegasus. Cain could have really used such weapons when driving between two baseships. The maneuver suggested in the series was that he drove directly between the two baseships and opened up with dual broadsides. (As a side-note, that's an animation I wouldn't mind seeing done well in hi-def using today's animation technology).

All my best,


Russell

[martok2112]

I also, admittedly, prefer the open ended design on the landing bays of the new Galactica ships....it is just like on a real-world aircraft carrier....if a landing is in danger of being botched so close to the flight deck, (or if a tech problem arises....a sudden problem with the landing cable) the fighter can fly through and swing around for another run.

On a real-world aircraft carrier, a fighter comes in at 100 percent power, so that if a fly-through is necessary, the fighter can resume flight ops without fear of losing the velocity necessary to regain flight.

"Oh, but Martok, (real) Colonial Warriors are just THAT good...and the (real) Galactica doesn't need open ended landing bays!"

Fanboy felgercarb in my book. What if (original) Starbuck's fighter did indeed blow up on the recovery deck after his crash-landing in SASW? Hmm....you'd likely end up with a very disabled flight deck for quite some time...not to mention potentially grievous injuries that would result from such a mishap.

[TwoBrainedCylon]

Steve,

The ability to abort is good for a conventional landing as you have a 360 degree dome to pull up to. As long as you can get a troubled vehicle to go up, you're in business. That's how things work with real airfields on the surface of the Earth.

With something like the Battlestar Hanger, I tend to think this would be of a very limited value. If you have enough control to fly through the tube, you have enough to run parallel to the deck. If not, you're gonna cause the same mess in the hanger regardless of whether the bow side is closed or not. You could presume that an explosion would be worse with a closed front as the blast would reflect back and the shockwave pressure would have a chance to rip through your hanger a second time. In my mind, that's compensated by the fact that I'd prefer that to having stuff I wanted to repair hurled into space, especially if there was a chance it would hit undamaged parts of the hull or become something I might hit in the potential maneuvers of a battle.

Given my premise, a closed bay is just as good as any situation in which you have enough control for a craft to fly through is one in which you also have enough control to stop the craft via cables or netting (shades of ST 5).

All my best,


Russell

[Gemini1999]

I do like the model, but I feel that the fly-through landing bay seems unneccessary. It's a nice touch if you're trying to incorporate features of the NuGalactica with the design of the original. As an evolutionary design, not so much. It does look cool, but that's about it.

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by TwoBrainedCylon

If connected to the original series, the humans had been at war with the Cylons for 1000 yahrens (years). That would make the Colonial designers some extremely slow learners.

Admittedly, I'm a total geek about these things so I look at the implications of the modifications rather than just relaxing and thinking they look cool. Its just who I am. Consequently, I presume that since the rail guns are modeled exactly after the GINO rail guns that they are in fact, -- rail guns. That brings an interesting dynamic with the solonite missiles from the original series. It would make the battlestar less vulnerable to large ship attack as a rail gun of the size shown in the model could play all Hell with a moderate size ship assaulting them. Under your premise, that would explain why the Cylons attacked with small fighters as anything larger would be subjected to getting chopped up. They'd also be a damn good defense against large missile attacks from something like a baseship. (In the series, they used the laser turret footage for the Cylon missile batteries but the script proved the Cylons used missiles as well).

If this model were accepted as the Columbia, then the follow-on implication would be that the Colonial designers were damn near incompetent for not maintaining the same weapons on the Galctica and Pegasus. Cain could have really used such weapons when driving between two baseships. The maneuver suggested in the series was that he drove directly between the two baseships and opened up with dual broadsides. (As a side-note, that's an animation I wouldn't mind seeing done well in hi-def using today's animation technology).

All my best,


Russell

Mmmmm...that mean you agree with me?

[TwoBrainedCylon]

I agree with you on a lot of things.

I admit it about half the time.

All my best,


Russell

[BST]

I'm not so sure that an open-ended bay is a bad idea. I understand and appreciate the ideas presented thus far but, there are problems with a closed-end bay as well. Recall the attack on the Galactica in the episode, "Fire in Space". Following the solonite-packed raider's explosion, the flight deck was completely out of commission. Would it have been if there had been another opening or would that other opening provided an opportunity to make that particular attack sequence even worse?

Thoughts?

[AJMarks]

It's very nice, I can see the open hanger being more early on in battlestar designs. Remember, a viper pilot doesn't have to be flying full speed to land, I often believe that vipers are coasting in. As for aborting, you can go up, to the side or down (unlike landing on a carrier on Earth) without any problems. Such an opening on a ship would require a way to armor it or close it during battle.

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by BST

I'm not so sure that an open-ended bay is a bad idea. I understand and appreciate the ideas presented thus far but, there are problems with a closed-end bay as well. Recall the attack on the Galactica in the episode, "Fire in Space". Following the solonite-packed raider's explosion, the flight deck was completely out of commission. Would it have been if there had been another opening or would that other opening provided an opportunity to make that particular attack sequence even worse?

Thoughts?

I would see it as a vulnerability, having the bay open at both ends. Likely, during this earlier period, this was an adequate design. At some point, the Cylons developed a way to capitalize upon this vulnerability, either with better targetting on the Raiders, or stronger lasers onn their BaseShips. The Colonials responded by modifying the landing bay design to what we saw in the show.
Just my take.

[gmd3d]

Originally Posted by Senmut

I would see it as a vulnerability, having the bay open at both ends.

I also think it is a vulnerability have the bay open at both ends during attacks, it is 2 areas of attack for Raiders to pray on per bay

Rather than only one,

the 2 opening and they are very large can be fired on at greater distance too, half your missiles could be taken out by Battlestar defences but something could get through.

I like the single opening more and it a narrower (still a number of levels high) but I think harder to get an angle of attack and you (The Cylon) need to get a lot closer to bring of any attack, short of a suicide mission, as we saw in "Saga of a Star World" could be seen as the most possible way of disabling a Battlestar landing bay.

Even returning vipers/shuttles need to line up properly with the bay to land there again,

The more open bay look like a few approaches are possible.

but I always thought that there should be some large hangar doors that close the bay during combat.

perhaps they could close in sections so that the smaller Viper craft can land if damaged or need some reloading to do.

well they are my thoughts

Still a great design by the modeller and well done to him

[TwoBrainedCylon]

Originally Posted by Senmut

I would see it as a vulnerability, having the bay open at both ends. Likely, during this earlier period, this was an adequate design. At some point, the Cylons developed a way to capitalize upon this vulnerability, either with better targetting on the Raiders, or stronger lasers onn their BaseShips. The Colonials responded by modifying the landing bay design to what we saw in the show.
Just my take.

It wouldn't take much tech to exploit the crap out of an open front bay. You hurl explosives at it. In space, a catapult would almost be enough. Anything with a rocket would be pretty deadly and a MIRV would really make a bloody mess of things in short order.

As represented in the series, the battlestar was a big, flying tank. Except for the landing bays and the engine nozzles, every spot you hit it was covered with thick armor. The show demonstrated time and again that it could take some serious, serious damage and keep fighting. It was also well designed for conventional attack (something like rail guns and explosives). When it drives towards you, it has very few flat angles to absorb your assaults. Everything reflects away except for the very nose and the very tips of the landing bays. As long as you are the one attacking, the design is in your favor. To really hurt you, the enemy has to punch through a lot of armor.

With that in mind, its unfathomable to armor up everything and then leave two big openings where you're storing what is presumably some of your most critical equipment. In a heavy ship combat, you could turn the battlestar should something really dangerous get an angle on its aft but with openings on the front and back, you really have no options. There isn't a way to angle the ship where you aren't inviting enemy gunners to ruin your day.

Again, I'm really a Geek about these things so you have to take my criticisms with a big grain of salt. I'm also the guy who wondered why the the Imperial scout walkers in Return of the Jedi didn't just open up with the gataling guns they had mounted on the side and mow down all the teddy bears with bursts of 20,000 7.62mm rounds.

Having said all that, I'd also like to again ring the bell for the modeler who really did a marvelous job building this thing. For a fusion, its a smart piece of work.

All my best,


Russell

[Senmut]

I see the design as an attempt, earlier on, to launch fighters quickly, once the enemy is sighted. Zip out there, recover them quickly, then re-launch them. Unlike what we usually saw, with the Galactica being the last warship, the Battlestar was never designed to operate alone, the rest of the battlegroup ran interference and provided cover. But, in time, the Cylons found a way to negate all that, re the open bays.
A bit like our early carriers, with flight decks made of thick wooden planking. Okay, until the Japanese deployed a hard-nosed bomb that could pierce it easily. So, along come steel armored decks. Back and forth, back and forth.

[TwoBrainedCylon]

Ah -- fleet combat versus single ship ...

This brings up the great quirk of the original series. If there were a bunch of battlestars, then the victorious Cylons should have crushed the survivors like crippled bugs. If not, then Cain's defeat in his backstory was a horrible blow to the Colonials.

I tend to think of the battlestars as being few and far between as Cain felt that with two, they could bring the Cylon empire to its knees. That would indicate that a fleet would be centered around a bunch of medium sized support ships and not a group of Battlestars, although that wouldn't invalidate your premise. If one battlestar could rearm and refuel combatants at a fast pace, it could service a number of support ships during combat.

The positive of this design is that it could recover damaged support ships from the bow while recovering fighters from the aft, all while still engaged in battle. It could also launch gun platforms at twice the rate of the conventional design so if you wanted to field firepower quickly, it would be a good way to do it.

I still think it makes for a Hell of a vulnerability.

All my best,


Russell

[Punisher454]

My take on Cains opinion that their military fighting capability was enough to defeat the cylons had to do with the current situation and tactics. Gone now were large fleet battles in and around the colonies, which would tend to have large concentrations of forces. Now the Cylons are scattered trying to hold a vast amount of teritory, and also having issues with accurate and truthfull reporting from the battlefield back to the homeworld.
Cain (and to a lesser extent Adama) have been using asymetrical strategies to defeat the Cylons. I believe Cain was mistaken and overconfident in his assesmant, since having the pegasus and galactica together would cause the cylons to concentrate a greater number of baseships.
But seroiously I think that if the pegasus had remained with the rag tag fleet that he would have tried infiltration and capture missions on base ships to increase their fighting power, since the fleet could potentially supply thousands of people to man those ships.

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by TwoBrainedCylon

Ah -- fleet combat versus single ship ...

This brings up the great quirk of the original series. If there were a bunch of battlestars, then the victorious Cylons should have crushed the survivors like crippled bugs. If not, then Cain's defeat in his backstory was a horrible blow to the Colonials.

I tend to think of the battlestars as being few and far between as Cain felt that with two, they could bring the Cylon empire to its knees. That would indicate that a fleet would be centered around a bunch of medium sized support ships and not a group of Battlestars, although that wouldn't invalidate your premise. If one battlestar could rearm and refuel combatants at a fast pace, it could service a number of support ships during combat.

The positive of this design is that it could recover damaged support ships from the bow while recovering fighters from the aft, all while still engaged in battle. It could also launch gun platforms at twice the rate of the conventional design so if you wanted to field firepower quickly, it would be a good way to do it.

I still think it makes for a Hell of a vulnerability.

All my best,


Russell

So, just so I get this straight...you do not see the Colonial military based upon carrier battle groups, like ours. Part of what gave me the idea was Cronus' comment about "when I commanded the Rycon, and 600 fighting ships, that's when I commanded a Fleet!" The, at least surface, assumption was of a Fleet centered around a battlestar and her flight ops.
What say you?

[TwoBrainedCylon]

I agree but due to budget constraints, the series didn't have this visual portrayal.

When I picture a Colonial fleet, I see five battlestars flying in formation. When I think about it, the concept is as you describe.

Visual image vs. logic.

All my best,


Russell

[Senmut]

Thanks. Nice to know 'taint just moi.