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Old April 29th, 2005, 03:58 PM   #1
PredatorPt
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Default Last days of the 12 Colonies?

What are your thoughts on that one? I'm thinking about doing some short stories during those dark days - after the attack of the Cylons and before the Fleet departs...

Were all the Colonies attacked at the same time? Or were there Colonies where the people just waited for the final Cylon blow, seeing planeta after planet attacked? What about the shipwards, military facilities, etc...?

I know these kind of things were never part of the BSG canon, but what are your thoughts?
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Old April 30th, 2005, 01:59 AM   #2
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Well, it seems that the attacks were fairly quick, but also that they came in waves.

That is, Galactica left the Battle of Cimtar before the attack on Caprica began, and it was over before they made it to Caprica. By then the Cylons had moved on to other colonies (apparently attacking 3 at once or so), and Galactica apparently decided that she couldn't reach any Colony in time to save it from the Cylons, so she went back to Cimtar to recover her fighters.
By the time Galactica made the return to Cimtar and then back to Caprica, the first Cylon assault was over, and the Cylons had pulled back to regroup before returning to mop-up. Galactica hastilly rescued as many people as they could take and fled, then the Cylons returned (and Baltar gloated).

All in all, it seems to have gone fairly quickly.

That said, I do think some stories could be set during this time. The problem is that you need to keep the time VERY compressed: from first attack to Extermination Wave should be at most a couple of days, and more like 36 hours. However, that Extermination Wave may take days or even weeks, as the Cylons did not seem to have any "human-detectors" better than the "Mark I Eyeball". They're just wandering the countryside shooting any paople they see (or rather herding them together for execution).
So, there's another period for stories to be told in: while the Cylons are hunting and killing the survivors.
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Old April 30th, 2005, 08:10 AM   #3
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Thumbs up Good points

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpyOne
Well, it seems that the attacks were fairly quick, but also that they came in waves.

That is, Galactica left the Battle of Cimtar before the attack on Caprica began, and it was over before they made it to Caprica. By then the Cylons had moved on to other colonies (apparently attacking 3 at once or so), and Galactica apparently decided that she couldn't reach any Colony in time to save it from the Cylons, so she went back to Cimtar to recover her fighters.
By the time Galactica made the return to Cimtar and then back to Caprica, the first Cylon assault was over, and the Cylons had pulled back to regroup before returning to mop-up. Galactica hastilly rescued as many people as they could take and fled, then the Cylons returned (and Baltar gloated).

All in all, it seems to have gone fairly quickly.

That said, I do think some stories could be set during this time. The problem is that you need to keep the time VERY compressed: from first attack to Extermination Wave should be at most a couple of days, and more like 36 hours. However, that Extermination Wave may take days or even weeks, as the Cylons did not seem to have any "human-detectors" better than the "Mark I Eyeball". They're just wandering the countryside shooting any paople they see (or rather herding them together for execution).
So, there's another period for stories to be told in: while the Cylons are hunting and killing the survivors.
Thirty Six hours? That seems very short. If the Cylons have to herd planetfuls of countryside Colonials together that they didn't kill in the city bombardments, then your suggestion of months could be quite accurate. I don't see the Cylons completing the massacre in less than YEARS if they hunt on foot.. There aren't enough TOASTERS that you can land and too many Colonials. (Millions of them!)

Under those conditions, writing stories of holdout pockets of Colonials, and subsequent small waves of escaping refugees is not only logical but expectable.
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Old April 30th, 2005, 01:05 PM   #4
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Battlestar Galactica 1978 Cylon Attacks Of The 12 Colonies

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Originally Posted by Damocles
Thirty Six hours? That seems very short. If the Cylons have to herd planetfuls of countryside Colonials together that they didn't kill in the city bombardments, then your suggestion of months could be quite accurate. I don't see the Cylons completing the massacre in less than YEARS if they hunt on foot.. There aren't enough TOASTERS that you can land and too many Colonials. (Millions of them!)

Under those conditions, writing stories of holdout pockets of Colonials, and subsequent small waves of escaping refugees is not only logical but expectable.
I Agree With Your On Your Thoughts on the Situation of the Fall Of The Colonies...

Also, Might I Point Out What Apollo Said in the Movie... "How MANY Did We Have To Leave Behind?"

We Have No Exact Number Of Survivors Left in The Colonies... I Think it Would Make For a VERY GOOD Galactia Fan-Fic Story.



I Believe Commander Adama Ordered Tigh to Keep The Galactia Out A The Cylon Basestars Scanner Range.

Seeing As How They Lost The BIG One... The Galactia Would Be The ONLY Hope For The VERY Survival of The Colonies.

Here is a Question that I Have Been Wondering About For Many a Yarn...

Q: Exactly How Many Vipers Are Stationed On a Battlestar?


I Leave You to Contemplate These Statements...

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Old April 30th, 2005, 01:43 PM   #5
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Thanks for all the interesting feedback! I was also thinking in that time period - 36 hours - from first attack to the Fleet leaving

I'm planning to write a story about a Council Security member that tries to do his duty in a crumbling society - and suddendly finds himself defending what is now the last shuttle to the departing Fleet. Does he continues to turn away civilians so his bosses can escape or will he do the right thing?

It's more a character study than true fanfiction, but I'm planning to write it anyway
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Old April 30th, 2005, 06:06 PM   #6
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Hi guys!

It's hard to tell just how long it took the Galactica to get back to the Colonials, but I agree with the notion that the battle(s) were done by the time to G did get back. We know by Omega’s announcement that the first wave headed toward all "inner planets" and then a second wave headed toward all "outer planets" so there were at least two waves. Omega announced the "electronic jamming had stopped" and Apollo stated that was to clear the air for the Cylon scanners. That's how the G was able to pick up all of the civilian transmissions. And I would guess that since the G could hear what was going on, those on the "outer planets" could too. Scary stuff.

We saw Balter on the surface of Caprica talking to Cylons but not knowing about the evacuation. So the people must have gotten out before the Cylons returned. (?) An interesting POV could also be Adama's wife, Ila. He seemed to think she was at their house so what did she see? Was she alone? Or did she gather with some neighbors?

Oh, and someone asked how many vipers on a Battlestar. That's a hard one. We know just after the attack the G had 67 ("25 of our own" - Regal) so my guess was always that is should have been around 100. If you watch the movie version of Saga, one Carillon, the Olivon tells the Cylon in subtitles that 200 warriors were at the party. But I originally thought that meant the bridge officers too because we knew they only had 67, right?

hope that helps...
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Old April 30th, 2005, 07:43 PM   #7
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Anyone notice how, when Baltar is gloating over the destroyed Colonies, he's standing next to Adama's ruined house? Obviously, some history between those two.
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Old April 30th, 2005, 10:31 PM   #8
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Battlestar Galactica 1978 Baltar's Gloating

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senmut
Anyone notice how, when Baltar is gloating over the destroyed Colonies, he's standing next to Adama's ruined house? Obviously, some history between those two.
I Think You Might Be Right... Although, I'll Have to Re-Watch The DVD Again to Recheck... (Like Getting to Watch Classic Battlestar Galactia Is Gonna Be a PROBLEM to ME?!)

I'd Be Willing to Bet My Last Cubit That There Has Been BAD Blood Between Adama & Baltar For Many a Yarn... Baltar Had a Battlestar, But I Don't Think We Was In Command of it though...

Baltar Always Made the Same FATAL Error as All the Classic Villians... Gloating Just When You Think You've Got the Hero Captured in a Death Trap... LOOK How MANY Times The Joker Has Done This to Batman, ONLY to Have The Dark Knight Escape Using His Wits To Outsmart the Joker!!

Didn't Baltar Have Someone Working With Him On Caprica To Disable The Colonial Fleet's Detection Grids or Something to that Matter?

Hey, I Was VERY Serious in My Question as to What is The Complement of Vipers For a Battlestar.

I Think the Galactia Picked Up Something Like 75-76 From after the Destruction of the Fleet.

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Old April 30th, 2005, 10:57 PM   #9
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Battlestar Galactica 1978 Battlestar's Viper Complement

Quote:
Originally Posted by mocha2112
Hi guys!

It's hard to tell just how long it took the Galactica to get back to the Colonials, but I agree with the notion that the battle(s) were done by the time to G did get back. We know by Omega’s announcement that the first wave headed toward all "inner planets" and then a second wave headed toward all "outer planets" so there were at least two waves. Omega announced the "electronic jamming had stopped" and Apollo stated that was to clear the air for the Cylon scanners. That's how the G was able to pick up all of the civilian transmissions. And I would guess that since the G could hear what was going on, those on the "outer planets" could too. Scary stuff.

We saw Balter on the surface of Caprica talking to Cylons but not knowing about the evacuation. So the people must have gotten out before the Cylons returned. (?) An interesting POV could also be Adama's wife, Ila. He seemed to think she was at their house so what did she see? Was she alone? Or did she gather with some neighbors?

Oh, and someone asked how many vipers on a Battlestar. That's a hard one. We know just after the attack the G had 67 ("25 of our own" - Regal) so my guess was always that is should have been around 100. If you watch the movie version of Saga, one Carillon, the Olivon tells the Cylon in subtitles that 200 warriors were at the party. But I originally thought that meant the bridge officers too because we knew they only had 67, right?

hope that helps...

Thanks!!

Thats About the Number of Vipers I Was Thinking about... VERY Much Like That of a Modern Day Aircraft Carrier... Now... Here is What I Think they Did Latter... Perhaps Built More Vipers?? Hmmm... Can We Say 'Ole Haveke Might Be Onto something There??

We Know The Rag-Tag Fleet Had Mining Ships, they Had an Electronics Repair Ship... How Hard is to Produce Metal Given their Tech Level of The Original Battlestar Galactia?

Also Remember This Cain Transfered Silver Spar Squaderon to the Galactia... Juding From Your Previous Estimates Of Viper Counts... That 25 Vipers to a Squareron... Galactia Had Blue & Red Squaderons... WE ONLY Actually Got to See Blue Squareron Patches... (Can WE Ssay They Were CHEAP Back in 1978!!)

Or Maybe Each Squardon Had 50 Vipers to a Squaron... That Would Men Cain Probably Kept Gold Spar Squadron Onboard the Pegasus... Given the Way The Colonial Warriors Fly... I Believe Apollo Said To Zac ... "The Day The Cylons Can Out Fly Us at 10-1 ODDS NOT a Problem" (Something Like That.).. "Now a 1,000-1 THATS aANOTHER STORY!!"

I'm Gonna See If I Can Take a Pic of the Original Galicta Patch & To a Color Change on the Background og the Patch... Wish Me Luck Everyone!!

BTW... Just to Let Everyone Know... I'm Gonna Be Away From the Fleet For a While.... Got to Go Into The Hospital On Monday to Have Some HEART SURGERY...

Everyone Please WISH Me LUCK!!

Will Return ASAP!!

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Old May 1st, 2005, 01:48 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haveke

BTW... Just to Let Everyone Know... I'm Gonna Be Away From the Fleet For a While.... Got to Go Into The Hospital On Monday to Have Some HEART SURGERY...
Whoa! Good luck there Haveke!
We'll be pulling for you. Get well and back in the viper
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Old May 1st, 2005, 03:28 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senmut
Anyone notice how, when Baltar is gloating over the destroyed Colonies, he's standing next to Adama's ruined house? Obviously, some history between those two.
Yes, I did, and while it could have been cheap shooting, I always assumed it was part of the arc of help/hate that later developed, considering interactions in eps like LPotG, and later when Baltar 'surrenders' in WotG.

I also assume Adama's non enthusiasm for the peace treaty would have bought him into conflict (wherether directly or indirectly) with Baltar leading up to the events of Saga. Remember Adairs comment about the situation not pleasing all his childeren .

Cheers,
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Old May 1st, 2005, 03:33 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haveke
T

BTW... Just to Let Everyone Know... I'm Gonna Be Away From the Fleet For a While.... Got to Go Into The Hospital On Monday to Have Some HEART SURGERY...

Everyone Please WISH Me LUCK!!

Will Return ASAP!!
Wow, you slipped that one in without any fanfare!!
You certainly have a big measure of good luck wished your way ...

Cheers,
Lara
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Old May 1st, 2005, 03:48 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PredatorPt
What are your thoughts on that one? I'm thinking about doing some short stories during those dark days - after the attack of the Cylons and before the Fleet departs...

Were all the Colonies attacked at the same time? Or were there Colonies where the people just waited for the final Cylon blow, seeing planeta after planet attacked? What about the shipwards, military facilities, etc...?

I know these kind of things were never part of the BSG canon, but what are your thoughts?
You could write some tight thrillers about the defense lines and them holding out against the waves of attack, and explore their despair (and resourcefullness) when they realise the defense system has been sabotaged. These stories might have bleak endings, but the strength and weakness of people in an extreme situation like that is powerful stuff (thats why the disaster movie survives as a genre..)

There'd be good milage in following the story of resistance during the Cylon mop up: perhaps the formation and operation of resistance cells? Even if the Cylons resorted to mass destructive weapons (but given they don't scorch every planet beyond human endurance) it could take a while to get the last of them. After all we see they have problems mopping up kids, later on!!

If biological weapons were used, a scenario like the Brit SciFi show 'survivors' (mid 70's: after a plague wipes out the majority of people, leaving isolated groups who are immune or out of contact) is another way to explore the best and worst in people.

I've often wondered if other people got off the colonies, but not making the rendesvous, somehow headed off in another direction. If you got hold of a craft like the Rising Star, you might get out of the area and therefore be on the run in the charted terriitories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PredatorPt
Thanks for all the interesting feedback! I was also thinking in that time period - 36 hours - from first attack to the Fleet leaving

I'm planning to write a story about a Council Security member that tries to do his duty in a crumbling society - and suddendly finds himself defending what is now the last shuttle to the departing Fleet. Does he continues to turn away civilians so his bosses can escape or will he do the right thing?

It's more a character study than true fanfiction, but I'm planning to write it anyway
Sounds good. Plenty of scope for tension and conflict...

Cheers,
Lara
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Old May 1st, 2005, 10:44 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haveke
Here is a Question that I Have Been Wondering About For Many a Yarn...

Q: Exactly How Many Vipers Are Stationed On a Battlestar?
Well, there are several threads here where that has come up.

Short answer: we don't know. However, there is some good evidence that the ships going to Cimtar were not carrying their full complement.

Here's another idea: we know 67 Vipers survived Cimtar ("25 of ours", so 42 from other Battlestars), but we don't know if Galactica picked up any more Vipers from the colonies before she departed. It seems logical that there would be some there (since the Battlestars seemed to not have their full compliment), and that a few might have survived (in a hardened bunker, never launched due to surprise), and that you'd want to take them with you.
Add to that how in the show, it always seemed to be pilots that were in short supply, not Vipers for them to fly in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haveke
(Can WE Ssay They Were CHEAP Back in 1978!!)
We can, but they did in fact make Red Squadron patches. However, under the red "Alert" lights, they washed out and looked terrable, so they quit using them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by haveke
That Would Men Cain Probably Kept Gold Spar Squadron Onboard the Pegasus...
More likely, it indicates that Cain lost a LOT of Vipers at Molecay (and since then), as it is pretty clear in that episode that he's sending all his Vipers to Galactica.

Oh, and get well soon, haveke.
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Old May 1st, 2005, 01:12 PM   #15
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Battlestar Galactica 1978 Big Thanks!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragmentary
Whoa! Good luck there Haveke!
We'll be pulling for you. Get well and back in the viper
Yeah, Just Keep My Viper Armed & Ready, The Procedure Should Be a Day Surgery... They've Got to Inject Dye Into the Right Ventrical to Get a Good Picture of the Entire Heart... That Way They Can See Exactly Where the Damage is.

Its Kinda VERY Scary, Since My Father Died From Basically the SAME Thing Back in 1981... But... Medical Technology Has Come a LONG Way Since Then!!

I Just Turned 37 Last Month, and Did a Week Stay on the Cardo Unit at One Of The Local Hospitals... They Told Me... "Oh, By They WAY... You've Had a HEART ATTACK"...

I Was Like Kinda Shocked, Come On... Its Me... There Has Got to Be Some Sort Of Mistake... But After FINALLY Facing the FACTS... These THINGS Can Happen to ANYONE!!

So I Get Ready to Have My Procedure Tomorrow, Knowing I've Got All My Fellow Colonial Warriors Pulling For Me...

If ANYONE In YOUR Family Has Had a HISTORY Of STROKE, DIABETES, Or HEART DISEASE... PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE ... Get Yourself REGULAR Checkups!!

I Keep Telling My Doctors... "Hey, I Plan On Living FOREVER... Or Dye Trying"

Take Care Your Your HEALTH... Its The ONE Thing That WE Can Actually Do Something About...

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Old May 1st, 2005, 01:19 PM   #16
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Battlestar Galactica 1978 Thanks For Well Wishes

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpyOne
Well, there are several threads here where that has come up.

Short answer: we don't know. However, there is some good evidence that the ships going to Cimtar were not carrying their full complement.

Here's another idea: we know 67 Vipers survived Cimtar ("25 of ours", so 42 from other Battlestars), but we don't know if Galactica picked up any more Vipers from the colonies before she departed. It seems logical that there would be some there (since the Battlestars seemed to not have their full compliment), and that a few might have survived (in a hardened bunker, never launched due to surprise), and that you'd want to take them with you.
Add to that how in the show, it always seemed to be pilots that were in short supply, not Vipers for them to fly in.


We can, but they did in fact make Red Squadron patches. However, under the red "Alert" lights, they washed out and looked terrable, so they quit using them.

More likely, it indicates that Cain lost a LOT of Vipers at Molecay (and since then), as it is pretty clear in that episode that he's sending all his Vipers to Galactica.

Oh, and get well soon, haveke.

Thanks For All Your Wells Wishes!!

Yeah, Looking Back On Living Legend... Bojay Ssays They've Been Running Round The Clock Strikes On the Cylons... I Guess If They ONLY Had Silver Spar Squaderon that Would Make Sence.

Keep the Pyramid Game Going, and Save Me a Seat at the Table, I'll Be Back ASAP... and I'll Be Holding a PERFECT PYRAMID!!

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Old May 1st, 2005, 01:27 PM   #17
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Battlestar Galactica 1978 My Long Patrol

As I'm Setting Here Typing My Reply, I'm Smiling & Feeling VERY CONFIDENT of My SAFE Return to the Fleet.

I Will Probably Be Walking Rather Slow for a While, and Probably Having to Use a Cane, But Its a Lot Better to Catch Something EARLY While the Doctors Can Do Something About it.

Yeah, I Like to Think of it More as If I've Pulling a Long Patrol...



Get Back to the Fleet Soon!!
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Old May 1st, 2005, 05:11 PM   #18
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Default Some ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mocha2112
Hi guys!

It's hard to tell just how long it took the Galactica to get back to the Colonials, but I agree with the notion that the battle(s) were done by the time to G did get back. We know by Omega’s announcement that the first wave headed toward all "inner planets" and then a second wave headed toward all "outer planets" so there were at least two waves. Omega announced the "electronic jamming had stopped" and Apollo stated that was to clear the air for the Cylon scanners. That's how the G was able to pick up all of the civilian transmissions. And I would guess that since the G could hear what was going on, those on the "outer planets" could too. Scary stuff.

We saw Balter on the surface of Caprica talking to Cylons but not knowing about the evacuation. So the people must have gotten out before the Cylons returned. (?) An interesting POV could also be Adama's wife, Ila. He seemed to think she was at their house so what did she see? Was she alone? Or did she gather with some neighbors?

Oh, and someone asked how many vipers on a Battlestar. That's a hard one. We know just after the attack the G had 67 ("25 of our own" - Regal) so my guess was always that is should have been around 100. If you watch the movie version of Saga, one Carillon, the Olivon tells the Cylon in subtitles that 200 warriors were at the party. But I originally thought that meant the bridge officers too because we knew they only had 67, right?

hope that helps...

Thanks!!

Based on filmed evidence from what I saw in the OBG episodes(Birthday Present), those Raiders were launched within light seconds of their targets(light second =300,000 kilometers approximately) from their base stars to be over the cities so quickly. So when Omega reports waves there have to be base stars near the target planets(not shown) as homes for those waves of Raiders.

We don't know how far/long it took for Apollo to fly the Viper that carried Adama to Caprica. Evidence of the freshness of the attack(smoke from the ruins indicated a day or two.) Add to this the approach of the refugees on foot from the city,(average human rate of march-one meter per second or less than four kilometers per hour) and I estimated no less than eight hours from the initial bombing and no more than three days, based on the relatively "clean' appearance" of the refugees who showed up.

Now let me address Haveke's questions

Quote:
Posted By Haveke
Thats About the Number of Vipers I Was Thinking about... VERY Much Like That of a Modern Day Aircraft Carrier... Now... Here is What I Think they Did Latter... Perhaps Built More Vipers?? Hmmm... Can We Say 'Ole Haveke Might Be Onto something There??

We Know The Rag-Tag Fleet Had Mining Ships, they Had an Electronics Repair Ship... How Hard is to Produce Metal Given their Tech Level of The Original Battlestar Galactia?

Also Remember This Cain Transfered Silver Spar Squaderon to the Galactia... Juding From Your Previous Estimates Of Viper Counts... That 25 Vipers to a Squareron... Galactia Had Blue & Red Squaderons... WE ONLY Actually Got to See Blue Squareron Patches... (Can WE Ssay They Were CHEAP Back in 1978!!)

Or Maybe Each Squardon Had 50 Vipers to a Squaron... That Would Men Cain Probably Kept Gold Spar Squadron Onboard the Pegasus... Given the Way The Colonial Warriors Fly... I Believe Apollo Said To Zac ... "The Day The Cylons Can Out Fly Us at 10-1 ODDS NOT a Problem" (Something Like That.).. "Now a 1,000-1 THATS aANOTHER STORY!!"

I'm Gonna See If I Can Take a Pic of the Original Galicta Patch & To a Color Change on the Background og the Patch... Wish Me Luck Everyone!!

BTW... Just to Let Everyone Know... I'm Gonna Be Away From the Fleet For a While.... Got to Go Into The Hospital On Monday to Have Some HEART SURGERY...

Everyone Please WISH Me LUCK!!

Will Return ASAP!!


Having just finished an analysis on the old Alligator on another board I came to the following conclusions.

1. The Alligator has thirty two launch tubes for Vipers. This is based on a launch tube count for each hanger "pod"(Sixteen by count port> assumption of symmetry)

2. If the OBG modelers followed the Navy format for squadrons; then, a typical squadron would have sections of two, flights of four and squadrons of twelve to sixteen aircraft.

3. By 2, the Galactica had a minimum of twenty-four Vipers by squadron deployment if the lower number of twelve per squadron were used. By launch tube count, she had a minimum of thirty two Vipers embarked, which indicates to me a squadron count of sixteen Vipers per squadron.

4. It seems logical that "squadrons" would be based "port" and "starboard" pod, each squadron together in a single hanger pod. Blue squadron seemed to be "port".

5. That gives an absolute minimum of 32 Vipers for the Viper Coop by 3. and 4.

6. The volume of each hanger pod and the relative geometry precludes more than four Vipers being lined up like bullets in a magazine in each launch tube.

7. That gives an effective upper limit of 128 Vipers to the Galactica, based on hanger pod volume.

8. My best guess is that the Alligator carried 64 Vipers and perhaps thirty other assorted shuttles and other craft(Not shown on film.)

9. Having a factory ship for space manufacturer makes eminent sense. It should have a Von Neumann templater that should churn out Vipers like sausages. The problem is getting some of the exotic metals and minerals that a modern aircraft requires from the usual asteroidal junk you find. "Terrestrial" planets will have a richer distribution of the elements just because they were better gravity traps for the materials during planetary body formation near a coalescing star.

And finally Haveke, GOOD LUCK!!
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Old May 1st, 2005, 08:33 PM   #19
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Battlestar Galactica 1978 Luck Received

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles
Based on filmed evidence from what I saw in the OBG episodes(Birthday Present), those Raiders were launched within light seconds of their targets(light second =300,000 kilometers approximately) from their base stars to be over the cities so quickly. So when Omega reports waves there have to be base stars near the target planets(not shown) as homes for those waves of Raiders.

We don't know how far/long it took for Apollo to fly the Viper that carried Adama to Caprica. Evidence of the freshness of the attack(smoke from the ruins indicated a day or two.) Add to this the approach of the refugees on foot from the city,(average human rate of march-one meter per second or less than four kilometers per hour) and I estimated no less than eight hours from the initial bombing and no more than three days, based on the relatively "clean' appearance" of the refugees who showed up.

Now let me address Haveke's questions





Having just finished an analysis on the old Alligator on another board I came to the following conclusions.

1. The Alligator has thirty two launch tubes for Vipers. This is based on a launch tube count for each hanger "pod"(Sixteen by count port> assumption of symmetry)

2. If the OBG modelers followed the Navy format for squadrons; then, a typical squadron would have sections of two, flights of four and squadrons of twelve to sixteen aircraft.

3. By 2, the Galactica had a minimum of twenty-four Vipers by squadron deployment if the lower number of twelve per squadron were used. By launch tube count, she had a minimum of thirty two Vipers embarked, which indicates to me a squadron count of sixteen Vipers per squadron.

4. It seems logical that "squadrons" would be based "port" and "starboard" pod, each squadron together in a single hanger pod. Blue squadron seemed to be "port".

5. That gives an absolute minimum of 32 Vipers for the Viper Coop by 3. and 4.

6. The volume of each hanger pod and the relative geometry precludes more than four Vipers being lined up like bullets in a magazine in each launch tube.

7. That gives an effective upper limit of 128 Vipers to the Galactica, based on hanger pod volume.

8. My best guess is that the Alligator carried 64 Vipers and perhaps thirty other assorted shuttles and other craft(Not shown on film.)

9. Having a factory ship for space manufacturer makes eminent sense. It should have a Von Neumann templater that should churn out Vipers like sausages. The problem is getting some of the exotic metals and minerals that a modern aircraft requires from the usual asteroidal junk you find. "Terrestrial" planets will have a richer distribution of the elements just because they were better gravity traps for the materials during planetary body formation near a coalescing star.

And finally Haveke, GOOD LUCK!!
I Gave the 'Ole Background Color Change a Shot for the Orginal Patch, But it LOOKED Absolutely Horrible!!

I'll Have to Retry that at a Later Date With Another Program.

As For My Little Extended Recon Patrol Of The Cardo Wing Of Tthe Local Hospital Goes... They Tell Me If Everything Goes Well, I Should Be Released The Same Day... Or Maybe an Overnight Stay.

Hey, Last Time I Was There... The Cylons (Nurses) Kept Telling Me to Get Back Into Bed & Rest... Talk about Being Totally Bored!!

So There I Was... Setting in My Hospital Bed... Watching TV & Having to Get Up & Go to The Bathroom a Couple Times an Hour... BTW... Did I Forget to Mention that My Regular MD Was Checking Me Out For My Swelling in My Ankles & Lower Legs... and the Swelling Was Starting to Make its Way up My Torso. But... I'm NOT Worried, Because I Always Make it Back!!

So, They Checked Me Into The Hospital with the Possible Start of Congestive Heart Failure... Add to This, I've Been Having to Take Meds for the Last 8 Years For "Major" Depression, and We Believe They Were the MAIN Cause of My Water Retention... I Have Gained Almost 40+ Pounds From Water Weight in the Past Four Years.

I Fully Understand The Possible Conquences of Having to Carry Around All that Extra Weight, and I WANT it GONE!!

Last Time They Were Giving Me 2 Different Types Of Diuretics into My IV ... It Was Kinda Interesting though...

I Thank Everyone Who Has Wished Me Well & Also Those Of You Who Have Been Able to Help Analyze the Viper Compliment of a Battlestar.

I Remember that The Cylon Basestars Carried 4 Complete Squaderons of Raiders...
so I Would Guess It ONLY Makes Sence that a Battlestar Could Carry Somewhere Near that many Fighters.

I Saw Drawing Done to Scale for the Galactia, and I Believe it Was Suspossed to Be Nearly a Mile Long... the Drawing Was DONE in the Exact Scale as the Star Wars Ships Book, Which Shows that a Regular Star Destroyer is a Mile in Length.

I Once Played a Colonial Warrrior in the Old Star Wars RPG System... The Colonial Blaster Pistol Was Rated at 7D6+2

Needless To Say... Getting Into Fire Fights Was Really a Lot of Fun For My Character...

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Old May 2nd, 2005, 09:08 AM   #20
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Damocles: Thanks for your analysis.
I made many of the same assumptions as you. For instance, I figure a "squadron" would ideally be the number of Vipers that can launch at once from a single launch bay (16).
However, ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles
6. The volume of each hanger pod and the relative geometry precludes more than four Vipers being lined up like bullets in a magazine in each launch tube.

7. That gives an effective upper limit of 128 Vipers to the Galactica, based on hanger pod volume.
By this logic, a Nimitz Class Carrier would carry how many planes? 12? I mean, it only has 3 catapults ....

What you have is the maximum number of Vipers that can be stored in a way that has them ready for launch quickly. (And maybe not even that: when you say "lined up like bullets", do you mean one in front of the other, or stacked vertically? 'Cause I think maybe both would work. )
But there could be many more Vipers stored in designated Viper Storage Hangars that would require ... half an hour to get them into launch position, for instance.
I don't know how long it would take for a Nimitz Class Carrier to launch all its planes, but I imagine it's quite a while. And that's not just the 3 catapults: deck space is limited, so you have to keep bringing more planes on-deck from the hangars via elevators.

I think those hangar pods must hold a lot more than 128 Vipers at maximum. I mean, the above-mentioned Nimitz carries over 100 aircraft, and if you use the 1 nautical mile measurement for the Big G those bays are each more than 15 times its size (3 times as long, 5 times as wide, and several times as high though I cannot find Nimitz's overall height right now -- I'd say about 3 times as high in the middle of the bay as flightdeck-to-keel on the Nimitz).

Of course, if you are using other measurements (many of which have at least as much support as the ones I use), that could change the volume dramaticly.
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Old May 2nd, 2005, 11:23 AM   #21
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Damocles here!

Quote:
Damocles: Thanks for your analysis.
I made many of the same assumptions as you. For instance, I figure a "squadron" would ideally be the number of Vipers that can launch at once from a single launch bay (16).
However, ...
And here is where I listen;

What I said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles
6. The volume of each hanger pod and the relative geometry precludes more than four Vipers being lined up like bullets in a magazine in each launch tube.

7. That gives an effective upper limit of 128 Vipers to the Galactica, based on hanger pod volume.
This is Spy One's logical rejoinder:

Quote:
By this logic, a Nimitz Class Carrier would carry how many planes? 12? I mean, it only has 3 catapults ....
No. This logic is disprovable by the simple observation that the "geometry" of the "flight decks" of the Alligator's "pods" and the Nimitz flight deck are totally different. Volume is constrained in the pods by the fact that the landing deck and the maintenance "hangers" and the launch bays are all housed in the pod. In a flattop, the flight deck, acts as the hard stand for parked aircraft while the aircraft maintenance spaces(You aren't far wrong about the maintenance spaces inside the hanger for a Nimitz .). can scarce handle a quarter of the aircraft embarked internally inside the carrier itself.

Quote:
What you have is the maximum number of Vipers that can be stored in a way that has them ready for launch quickly. (And maybe not even that: when you say "lined up like bullets", do you mean one in front of the other, or stacked vertically? 'Cause I think maybe both would work. )
More logical to space them to load sideways into their LINAC launchers.

Quote:
But there could be many more Vipers stored in designated Viper Storage Hangars that would require ... half an hour to get them into launch position, for instance.
I don't know how long it would take for a Nimitz Class Carrier to launch all its planes, but I imagine it's quite a while. And that's not just the 3 catapults: deck space is limited, so you have to keep bringing more planes on-deck from the hangars via elevators.
Agreed: but, look at this link;

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/68.htm

Notice that most aircraft are stored on the flight deck?

If done right, a Nimitz can clear aircraft in less than an hour. I assume that the Alligator because of its launch tubes could clear aircraft inside two minutes.

Quote:
I think those hangar pods must hold a lot more than 128 Vipers at maximum. I mean, the above-mentioned Nimitz carries over 100 aircraft, and if you use the 1 nautical mile measurement for the Big G those bays are each more than 15 times its size (3 times as long, 5 times as wide, and several times as high though I cannot find Nimitz's overall height right now -- I'd say about 3 times as high in the middle of the bay as flightdeck-to-keel on the Nimitz).

Of course, if you are using other measurements (many of which have at least as much support as the ones I use), that could change the volume dramaticly.
Here is where I went to start for size;

http://ravensbranch.allen.com/galacticasize.html

By my best estimates each pod is about half the size of a Nimitz by usable flight deck and hanger deck volume.

This is not to say that you are wrong. Not so. You are about as correct as I am, based on the information we share. I see no reason why you couldn't be more correct; if you are right about knock down Viper storage in the main hull of the Galactica.

The way that I look at the landing area of the pods is; that I haven't seen Vipers hard stood in the landing strips. I have to assume that deck crew drag Vipers clear into maintenance bays on either side of the landing strip to clear the landing deck. By that criteria if each Viper is about the size of a Skyhawk, then there is room for about fifty aircraft per pod; if the flight deck remains as clear as it does, when we see a Viper land on the Alligtator in the OBG.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers.
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Old May 2nd, 2005, 12:22 PM   #22
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My take on it:

Somewhere in BSG lore is a statement (not canonical, but I believe part of the marketing material, perhaps on the original plastic model of the G) that the normal compliment is 75 Vipers. However, I also believe this piece states that the G is 600 some-odd meters long. As I am loath to accept that figure as her true size, it takes away the credibility of the compliment number. That being said, that figure actually makes sense in the scheme of the G’s design.

Of the four banks of launch tubes (per side), I think only the forward three are used in the course of normal launch operations. The last bank is too far back to have tubes of the same length as the other three banks. What they are I will leave for another discussion, but I believe that limits us to 12 valid tubes per side.

The interior sets seen in the series shows 12 vipers lined up together; the four in front of the tubes, and eight others (there must be some mechanism for transferring the other 8 into the launch tubes that we never see).

We know very little about unit organization on a battlestar after the holocaust, and even less about it before. We do know that there are two squadrons on the G after the holocaust, and as there seem to also be two squadrons on the Pegasus, this suggests that this is the normal alignment.

We know that there is some unit designation of “wing” that is a smaller unit that a squadron (SSW).

We usually see vipers in groupings of 2, 3, and 5.

So I believe the structure is (in a perfect world):

Section: 2 vipers
Heavy Section (mission specific): 3 vipers
Flight: 4 vipers
Heavy Flight (mission specific): 5 vipers
Wing: 3 Flights – 12 vipers
Squadron: 3 Wings – 36 vipers

After LL and FS, the vipers from the Pegasus are integrated into the G’s squadrons, probably moving the number to somewhere around 6 wings per squadron.

Assuming that the G is 6080 ft (the “mile” length that I prefer), then her pods are about 2900 feet long. I would think she would have trouble handling more than 150 vipers + support craft (shuttles, etc.) even with a pod that size with two or three levels, and may be stretched to handle that many. The landing and launch facilities alone would take up a huge volume (the cat tubes would need the space, the mechanism, power routing, and temperature management systems). You also have to add fuel storage and management for all of the craft, environmental maintenance systems, consumables stores and management systems, craft transferal systems, craft maintenance facilities, emergency reaction systems, systems for the weaponry mounted on the pods, etc.

That's a lot to put inside of an armored hull.

Just some thoughts...

--JJR
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Old May 2nd, 2005, 03:51 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles
Here is where I went to start for size;

http://ravensbranch.allen.com/galacticasize.html
I've seen that site, and it's great work.

First off, I had glossed over the need to keep that big central flightdeck clear.

The 4000-and-change-foot Galactica is about 2/3 the size of the one I described. Its landing bays are only 2 Nimitzes long, and less than 2 wide (about 1.5). The big rectangular part around the landing bay looks to be about as high as a carrier from keel to flightdeck.
HOWEVER, there is a hole about 30 feet high (more counting decks and beams) and 146 feet wide running the entire length of the bay. That makes it about twice the size of the Nimitz flight deck, but all craft are kept pushed to the extreme inboard edge.
That "inboard edge" starts well in from the back of the pod, and presumably is similar in the front, so we're looking at under 2000 feet. Each Viper is at least 12 feet wide, and they are not nestled nose-to-tail but rather parked with access space all around. Call it 1800 feet available and 18 feet per viper?

Let's say the outer hull of the pod is 10 feet thick (so the interior area is bounded by the 185 foot measurement), that puts only about 20 feet of space on each side of the Landing Bay, and the outboard side is probably mostly filled with the launch tubes.

So, the only places Vipers could be stored in the bay are:
in launch position: 16
along the inboard edge: 100
Below the landing deck? There does seem to be some space there, but it's unclear if it is tall enough and it might well be machinery or something.
Above the landing deck? Quite possable, but no evidence of it. We do have some evidence of other things being up there (like pilots' quarters).
Two more places Vipers could be stored: inboard in the space between the landing deck and the hull, and outboard in the same area but leaving room for the launch tubes. Both are quite cramped.

Given that there is machinery and firefighting equipment and stuff in each Bay, 100 Vipers seems a little high for this size, if anything.
Of course, the one I was describing is 50% larger in all directions.

One arguement against the smaller Galactica: Try fitting in the launch tubes.
By my measurement, there's about 30 feet from the edge of the landing deck to the outer hull edge. If the tubes start right at that edge and run at a 45-degree angle they're about 42 feet long, or about 1.5 times the length of a Viper.
The tubes sure looked longer than that to me. In fact, they looked enough longer to make my 6000-foot version look small (same tubes now 63 feet long or 2.27 Vipers long).

One nitpicky thing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles
Agreed: but, look at this link;

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/68.htm

Notice that most aircraft are stored on the flight deck?
Actually, I've counted the visable planes in several of those photos, and it appears to be a little less than half. (42 or so of 100+)
Which is neither here nor there.
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Old May 2nd, 2005, 04:50 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpyOne
I've seen that site, and it's great work.

First off, I had glossed over the need to keep that big central flightdeck clear.

The 4000-and-change-foot Galactica is about 2/3 the size of the one I described. Its landing bays are only 2 Nimitzes long, and less than 2 wide (about 1.5). The big rectangular part around the landing bay looks to be about as high as a carrier from keel to flightdeck.
HOWEVER, there is a hole about 30 feet high (more counting decks and beams) and 146 feet wide running the entire length of the bay. That makes it about twice the size of the Nimitz flight deck, but all craft are kept pushed to the extreme inboard edge.
That "inboard edge" starts well in from the back of the pod, and presumably is similar in the front, so we're looking at under 2000 feet. Each Viper is at least 12 feet wide, and they are not nestled nose-to-tail but rather parked with access space all around. Call it 1800 feet available and 18 feet per viper?

Let's say the outer hull of the pod is 10 feet thick (so the interior area is bounded by the 185 foot measurement), that puts only about 20 feet of space on each side of the Landing Bay, and the outboard side is probably mostly filled with the launch tubes.

So, the only places Vipers could be stored in the bay are:
in launch position: 16
along the inboard edge: 100
Below the landing deck? There does seem to be some space there, but it's unclear if it is tall enough and it might well be machinery or something.
Above the landing deck? Quite possable, but no evidence of it. We do have some evidence of other things being up there (like pilots' quarters).
Two more places Vipers could be stored: inboard in the space between the landing deck and the hull, and outboard in the same area but leaving room for the launch tubes. Both are quite cramped.

Given that there is machinery and firefighting equipment and stuff in each Bay, 100 Vipers seems a little high for this size, if anything.
Of course, the one I was describing is 50% larger in all directions.

One arguement against the smaller Galactica: Try fitting in the launch tubes.
By my measurement, there's about 30 feet from the edge of the landing deck to the outer hull edge. If the tubes start right at that edge and run at a 45-degree angle they're about 42 feet long, or about 1.5 times the length of a Viper.
The tubes sure looked longer than that to me. In fact, they looked enough longer to make my 6000-foot version look small (same tubes now 63 feet long or 2.27 Vipers long).

One nitpicky thing:
Actually, I've counted the visable planes in several of those photos, and it appears to be a little less than half. (42 or so of 100+)
Which is neither here nor there
.
Peacetime CAP is four birds in the air, two alert five on the cats, one Hawkeye aloft out of normal four embarked; of the seventy+ aircraft in the air wing total(excluding helos). What I found astonishing was so many hard stood on the deck.

http://www.cadre.maxwell.af.mil/warfarestudies/wpc/wpc_txt/navy/cvw.htm
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