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Old March 27th, 2005, 04:07 PM   #1
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Lightbulb An Essay

I’m going to lay it on the line. There’s been a lot of back-and-forth going on in this forum, a lot of it quite civil, some not. Some people want to keep the pot stirred, others simply don’t understand why there is still a lot of fuss and bother over a re-made TV show – why we can’t seem to let it go.

So, I’m going to explain it. Lay it out there for all to see. The gripes, the fears, the anger. If you get it, if you finally understand, great. I’m happy I can help. If, after this essay, you still don’t understand, then I seriously doubt you ever will. Regardless, I hope to be the last word on some of these issues, and we can move on from them.

Also, FYI, this essay – among others – will appear elsewhere, as well, hopefully soon.

Let me begin by addressing the issue of Ron Moore. A lot of discussion has been floating around lately about his motivations, his authority, his culpability as far as bringing the new “Battlestar Galactica” to life.

As I understand it, the events unrolled thusly:

Fox pulled out of the DeSanto production in late 2001, shortly after the events of 9/11, in part because the production delays that tragic day caused, in part because Brian Singer then had to leave to devote his attention to X-Men 2, in part because they had Firefly waiting in the wings. Universal then closeted with Bonnie Hammer, who brought in David Eick to “put a fresh spin on things”; he then called Moore.

At some point, perhaps even as the DeSanto sets were being destroyed, they told Tom for the first time that they were going a different direction, and he’d be welcome to sit in (they probably had to in order to avoid a breach of contract suit, I think), but he declined.

Bonnie Hammer is on record as disliking space-based science fiction, and the argument can be made she dislikes science fiction entirely; note the plethora of horror films, that truly awful “Big Brother” rip-off she did, and the repeated showing of “The Flintstones” and “Viva Rock Vegas” on the Sci-Fi Channel.

Given all that, I do not fully believe Mr. Moore when he says the responsibility for the direction of the new BSG is all his. I believe that his vision dovetailed nicely with the interests and ideals of Ms. Hammer and Mr. Eick. So, they gave him the green light.

Ron Moore is also well schooled in the Hollywood philosophy of “there’s no such thing as bad publicity”. So, he set himself up as a lighting rod. I would not be terribly surprised to learn that he himself leaked that “draft” script to the internet, going on three years ago now. He knew from the start that the existing fanbase would be incensed – and would create a whole lot of buzz around his show. His following actions lend credence to that; when Richard Hatch invited him to do a panel at the Oct. ’03 Galacticon, he walked into the room proclaiming he was the one who “killed Kirk”, knowing how controversial that was, knowing people would be angry with him and, therefore, create talk. He told TOS fans that their “popcorn was in another aisle”. Etc. Etc. Etc.

He wanted a lot of talk, a lot of buzz. We gave it to him, too, by the bucketful.

So no, I don’t believe Moore is single-handedly responsible for taking the direction he did with the show – but he’s set himself up as the scapegoat for it – or taking credit for it, however you want to look at it. It’s all PR. It’s all BS.

Do I think he set out to insult and degrade the existing BSG fans? No, he set out to make a television show and make a successful television show. He didn’t care about the wants of the existing BSG fans. He insulted and degraded the existing BSG fans to create publicity for his new show. He did a very good job. I believe it would not be garnering the ratings it is had it not been for our anger, and the actions of a couple of pinheads in the fan community that gave the PR machine priceless ammunition with which they were able to marginalize the rest of us. And they used it.

Ron Moore is neither the savior of science fiction (egads, no), nor is he the devil incarnate. He has simply offered himself up as the sacrificial lamb – or as a great hero. The continued ratings and longevity of the show will eventually tell that tale.

And let’s talk briefly about the various “homage’s” that have been paid TOS in the new show. The passing glance at the original Cylon Centurions. The few notes of Stu Phillips’ grand theme, played by a couple of trumpets through tinny speakers. “By Your Command”. Gaius Baltar in a swivel chair.

In a show so different yet meant to supplant another, is it any wonder many would feel that these minor points are more insult than tribute?

I do not include the designs of the rest of the fleet in that regard, though. Those ships were designed by people who love the original as much as anyone else, and wanted to provide a tangible tie to that universe. I cannot fault them for that. That constitutes tribute.

And, finally: over-writing history.

I hear the scoffing noise some of you just made – and I see the understanding nods from others. Allow me to explain this particular fear to those who do not understand it.

There are very few true links between the original BSG and the new one. This is another subject that’s gone back and forth; even the producers of the new show claim this new show is nothing like the old, but invite comparisons anyway.

The Viper design is clearly based on the original. The title of the show, obviously. Place names – Caprica, Caprica City, etc.

The character names are not a link. The original Adama was Adama – not William Adama. The original son was Apollo, not Lee Adama. The original series names have been used in this new version as assigned callsigns, ala Top Gun’s Maverick and Goose. Not the same thing.

There is no link whatsoever between the two when it comes to the depiction of faith. In the original, Adama was a warrior-priest, who gained strength from his faith in his battle with the soulless, godless Cylon enemy. These Colonials worshipped God, and called upon the saints and angels – here called the ‘Lords of Kobol”, to aid them. This was a fight between good and evil.

In the new, William Adama is ambivalent toward religion; it apparently has little or no place in his life, except as a tool to garner support (reference his final speech in the December ’03 miniseries). The faith of the Colonials is depicted not as a monotheistic, God-fearing faith, but as a polytheism – multiple gods, called the “Lords of Kobol”. It is the Cylons who worship a single God – and are quite fanatical about it. The genocide they wage against their human makers (another total departure from the original concept) is divine in origin.

And do I need to again address the effort – or lack thereof – to make the Colonials appear not of Earth?

I could go on, but, in short, I think we can all agree there is far more to separate the two shows than there is to link them.

And yet, both are called “Battlestar Galactica”.

For more than 25 years, there have been fans asking for a return to the universe of the original, to see what has happened to their heroes. To have Universal’s PR department get credit for that is pure, unadulterated bull poo-poo. Universal, until the late 1990’s, sat on their hands when it came to this property, which could have been as big as Star Trek.

They finally green-lit DeSanto’s TV movie/pilot, which was a continuation. Then when Fox backed out, Sci-Fi stepped in, but rather than simply fund what was already in place (which all of us could have supported), Universal went along with their plans to ‘re-imagine’ – the money was apparently there, and they didn’t want the copyright to lapse…

Anyway, they did it. And so we have two very different, mostly unrelated shows with the same name. So, what happens?

If the new completely overshadows the old, the chances of ever finding out how the original story continues are gone. We are left with an incomplete universe that we fell in love with, with incomplete characters; a universe that inspired many of us to nurse that first creative spark, to write that first serious story, draw that first serious picture; a universe being lost in the mists of the past.

We see it starting. We see it in the negative comments in the reviews of the new when comparing it to the old. We see complete dismissal of the premise of the original, and the promise it still has, in favor of this new, almost completely unrelated show.

And there is real pain in watching something you’ve wanted for so long go ‘pffffft’ before your very eyes – and that may be exactly what we’re seeing.

Don’t misunderstand – TOS BSG will never completely die, not as long as there are fans who continue to discuss it, create new stories for it, new art or video. And there is, still, a chance of convincing TPTB that there is merit in bringing back the original BSG universe.

But the time grows short – and that is added fuel to the frustration.
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Old March 27th, 2005, 04:07 PM   #2
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That is my essay. Now, let me make a few comments about how all that relates to Colonial Fleets.

For months, now, we’ve bent over backwards trying to make CF into a place where anyone can come and post their thoughts without fear of personal attack, or being made to feel that their opinions and feelings are secondary to anyone else’s. Behind the scenes the discussions are ongoing – constantly – as to how we can improve that, too.

Yet the Mods and Admins are under constant attack for being unfair and inconsistent, for being preferential to “one side” or the other. There are complaints about how negative the forums are. That there are always naysayers and detractors who will try to stifle any happy news.

A perfect example is the TNS review threads. Constantly, we see new reviews being posted that rank TNS on a par with Emmy-winning television. I see them, I read them, and I see how many people post how great the review is and how it reflects their opinion.

But many of those reviews also contain disparaging references to TOS. Should any of our members comment on that aspect of the review, ask why the reviewer must run down TOS to justify a good review for TNS, they are immediately accused of TNS bashing, and the Mods and Admins are accused of showing favoritism to old-guard TOS fans when we don’t slap them down.

And when we try to explain, many of the old-timers here at CF see the Mods and Admins as coddling the most vocal TNS fans………

We have a few rules we enforce, and we enforce them with equal vigor wherever we see them violated. But from the membership of CF I’d like to see more of a self-control attitude as opposed to a Mod-controlled one – a few voluntary posting guidelines, if you will.

First - Don’t post any words you’d have trouble eating later.

- Don’t post words that you know will offend on a personal level (personal attacks are a no-no; that’s a Rule).

- Don’t take less-than-praising comments about a TV show personally.

- Accept that the poster may be trying to engage in dialogue, to understand your opinion and help you understand his. In other words, don’t automatically assume the worst connotation to what you are reading. If you’re not sure, ask.

If everyone abides by these simple ideas, then we really will have a place where everyone can be happy.

Thank you.

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Old March 27th, 2005, 04:37 PM   #3
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"If the new completely overshadows the old, the chances of ever finding out how the original story continues are gone. We are left with an incomplete universe that we fell in love with, with incomplete characters; a universe that inspired many of us to nurse that first creative spark, to write that first serious story, draw that first serious picture; a universe being lost in the mists of the past."

An excellent post, and to me that is the key point as to why this whole experience has been troubling for me as a TOS fan. Did any of us ever envision the thought that after so many years of devotion to this show that was uniquely our own that we all felt good about as we talked about its high and low points and its potential, that we would see events unfold as they have where TOS is in danger of no longer being what people think of first and foremost when they hear the name "Battlestar Galactica?"

Planet Of The Apes had its reimagining. So did Lost In Space. And Star Trek has had five spin-off series. Yet in all of those instances, the original wasn't supplanted as the definitive version of what people think of when they hear the name nor was there ever any intent as I saw it, to relegate the original versions of those properties to permanent obscurity when the reimaginings and spin offs came out. I can even point to an example where a TV show was reimagined as a successful movie like "The Fugitive" but it didn't diminish the dignity or stature of the original TV series.

All except for "Battlestar Galactica" it would seem.
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Old March 27th, 2005, 05:17 PM   #4
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Dawg, I believe all the info you need is here at Fleets. If the bb was transferred with all of the threads there should be a q & a session with Moore reposted by Michael Faries when he was a part of the community. Myself and a number of other individuals participated in it.
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Old March 27th, 2005, 08:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
"If the new completely overshadows the old, the chances of ever finding out how the original story continues are gone. We are left with an incomplete universe that we fell in love with, with incomplete characters; a universe that inspired many of us to nurse that first creative spark, to write that first serious story, draw that first serious picture; a universe being lost in the mists of the past."

An excellent post, and to me that is the key point as to why this whole experience has been troubling for me as a TOS fan. Did any of us ever envision the thought that after so many years of devotion to this show that was uniquely our own that we all felt good about as we talked about its high and low points and its potential, that we would see events unfold as they have where TOS is in danger of no longer being what people think of first and foremost when they hear the name "Battlestar Galactica?"

Planet Of The Apes had its reimagining. So did Lost In Space. And Star Trek has had five spin-off series. Yet in all of those instances, the original wasn't supplanted as the definitive version of what people think of when they hear the name nor was there ever any intent as I saw it, to relegate the original versions of those properties to permanent obscurity when the reimaginings and spin offs came out. I can even point to an example where a TV show was reimagined as a successful movie like "The Fugitive" but it didn't diminish the dignity or stature of the original TV series.

All except for "Battlestar Galactica" it would seem.

But Eric, RDm is, after all, EDUCATED! He knows soooooooooooooooooo much more than we great unwashed out here in TV land.

I've said it before, and I will again. RDM is a parasite who steals and feeds off other people's creations. BSg is merely the latest victim of his mutilation.
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Old March 27th, 2005, 08:50 PM   #6
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Excellent essay highlighting the areas where the new series is NOT Battlestar Galactica.

I've long claimed that both propositions are true - that rthis new series, both is, and yet it is not, Galactica. There are far too many story elements in common with both series that I can't conceive of it calling itself something other than Galactica. The characters whose names are the same as the original also largely perform the same function to each other that they did in the original (even though the characters themselves are different.) In short, they've taken the basic story of the original series, and imported most of the core character relationships, and given it an entirely new appoarch and tone.

This sentence in your essay puzzled me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg
And do I need to again address the effort – or lack thereof – to make the Colonials appear not of Earth?
One of the directions that Larson made in 1978 is to deliberately tie his Colonial civilization to Earth. He gave their characters costumes and designs that were reminiscent of ancient civilizations, the intent of which was to breathe life into the the notion "life here began out there" approach.

Star Wars is a fantasy story. You go to the theater, you cheer on the good guys, you toss baqck the popcorn and you go home. If you watch Star Wars, there's no way that you could be accept the notion that Luke, Darth Vader and the rest are our "brothers in space".

There's plenty of heroics in BSG TOS, but the original producers wanted the audience to buy into the notion that these were "our brothers" out there, whether in the far-flung future or the distant past, the point of all of this is that "life here began out there," and that the catastrophe of "Saga of Star World" wasn't just some popcorn fantasy but a possible future or past.

Here, check out this link:
http://members.tripod.com/john_laroc.../larson79.html

Quote:
FF: Aren't you afraid viewers might have a negative reaction to the cultural similarities because they may find them too "earthbound" for science fiction?
LARSON: One of our first screenings drew some unfavorable comments. While the overall picture tested well, there were some elements that people had a negative reaction to because they were similar to things in our culture -- whether it was a pyramid, or the names of some of the planets. But, as I said, we didn't do this by acccident. In fact, we later tacked on a whole new beginning that made it quite clear that the similarities between our people and some of the ancient cultures were deliberate.
Nearly thirty years later they took the ancient civilization element and shoved it into the background, to resurface at the end of season one. However, in some respects, by dropping the ancient civilization visual referencess (which have less resonance today than they did years ago), the confusing nomenclature (yahren, centons), they've strengthened the links between the two civilizations. Instead of Pearl Harbor and WWII, we have 9/11 and the war on terror.

I guess it's this. you either carbon-copy as much of the series as possible, or you take the basic elements of the story and go with a more contemporary take on it, and build a new audience. Obviously they've chosen the latter. Not everything carries over, and they've lost a lot of the hardcore audience of the original series. But it's still Battlestar Galactica. And yet it isn't.

You can't please everybody.
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Old March 27th, 2005, 08:54 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larocque6689

I guess it's this. you either carbon-copy the original series, or you take the story and go with a more contemporary take on it, and build a new audience. Obviously they've chosen the latter.
In order to try and shore up an artistic and creative mess. To try and buy some fans of TOS into accepting the mutant as the real thing.
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Old March 28th, 2005, 06:34 AM   #8
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Well written and thought out Dawg.

"And do I need to again address the effort – or lack thereof – to make the Colonials appear not of Earth?" by Dawg

This comment actually made me laugh. There have been a few times when I've switched over to teh Sci-Fi channel and thought I was watching a movie or new show that was aboard a US Navy aircraft carrier only to discover that it was BSG. I think Moore could have taken a bit more of the Earth similiarities out. but to me, it looked like he really didn't try to. It might have made me beleive that they were "brother of man" and not a simi-futuristic Earth. (This is MY opinion)
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Old March 28th, 2005, 08:54 AM   #9
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Why would "brothers of man" be wearing suits? This totally confuses me. That would mean a duplicate evolution. Remember a duplicate Earth in os Trek, the episode titled Miri. This was one of the strengths of os BG the costumes. Even the civilians wore cool garb.
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Old March 28th, 2005, 03:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfish
Why would "brothers of man" be wearing suits?
Or how about this for size?

Why would they speak English? Why do they use a Roman alphabet?
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Old March 28th, 2005, 03:47 PM   #11
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Oh, come on, John.

For the same reason they used tiny translator gizmos in Last Starfighter. So the audience would understand.

There are a few expediencies we must accept in this kind of entertainment - we, the audience, need to understand what's going on. Learning a new language is a bit much to expect, so we allow the characters to speak a language we understand in the real world to facilitate the storytelling.

Same with labeling so we know that object is an energizer, without having to have someone walk by and say "Gee, that's an energizer".

Costuming, however, doesn't get that kind of pass - otherwise, there would be no costumes, just whatever clothes are in vogue when the movie or TV show was made. TOS costuming was designed especially to show that these humans were not of Earth. TNS costuming is straight off the rack at JCPenney. There's no effort to show that these are NOT earthlings.

You know this.

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Old March 28th, 2005, 03:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg
Costuming, however, doesn't get that kind of pass - otherwise, there would be no costumes, just whatever clothes are in vogue when the movie or TV show was made. TOS costuming was designed especially to show that these humans were not of Earth. TNS costuming is straight off the rack at JCPenney. There's no effort to show that these are NOT earthlings.

You know this.

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You don't suppose we are witnessing Our Town does Battlestar Galactica. Oh wait, that would mean no sets to speak of too, wouldn't it?

Hmmmmm. still thinking......

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Old March 28th, 2005, 03:57 PM   #13
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Charlton Heston said it best when he and the producers of POTA decided not to make a point about the apes speaking English in the film. "English is the lingua franca of film. It's use merely denotes a convenience for the audience to follow what the characters are really sayng to each other." (And by not focusing on that, and knowing the audience would readily accept it as a storytelling necessity, that's why the ending could still shock and surprise the audience).
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Old March 28th, 2005, 04:21 PM   #14
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Maybe when Galactica finds Earth, they will introduce the necktie to their long lost brothers.
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Old March 28th, 2005, 07:01 PM   #15
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Good essay, Dawg.
I agree wholeheartedly with teh majority of its points, and especially relate to your take on the buzz/pr/bs use and abuse.

To elaborate on the costuming and other visual elements on TNS: these have bugged me since the mini.
I believe they missed an important opportunity to relate to the 'brother of man' element of TOS. There was an overeagerness to be too literally the US military in space, that was not tempered by other visial elements being sufficiently different.

Billy's suits and the dry erase board are the two things that so easily could have been made sufficiently different enough to reinforce they are not of earth.

There is such a huge inventiveness in humans that its totally unlikely that suits and whiteboards would have independently evolved into exactly the same form.

Especially since one consistent point of difference they have made is cutting off the corners of books, pieces of paper and even tractor feed off the printers.

Coffee cups, shaving gear, and a host of other things look like a lazy raid on teh prop department and not any coherent visual design.

Good suspension of disbelief is all in the details, like the future adapted designs in Fifth Element, Bladerunner or Alien, which have visual consistency.


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Old March 28th, 2005, 07:35 PM   #16
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Now the world don't move to the beat of just one drum.
What might be right for you might not be right for some.

This is pretty cool. Some complaints about not enough "alienness" and a recognition that the subtext has to be familiar for the audience to clue in at all. It looks like everyone understands the need for sameness, at least in language. And many seem to want a "difference" in the visual aspects.

It is ultimately a matter of personal preference as to whether it is too much or not enough in any particular show.
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Old March 28th, 2005, 07:49 PM   #17
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I think it says a lot that the one area that Moore doesn't want there to be anything that closely resembles our own society is the matter of what kind of religion is practiced in it, because it sure as heck isn't polytheism.
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Old March 28th, 2005, 08:03 PM   #18
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Has the world gone Unitarian while I was asleep?
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Old March 28th, 2005, 08:06 PM   #19
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The majority of this country, and this world for that matters, practices a monotheistic religion rooted in either Christianity, Judaism or Islam. Yet Ron Moore thinks it's somehow more "realistic" to show what is meant to be "our" society practicing something that has nothing in common with any of those traditions, whereas the Cylons he sets up as the monotheists and this subtext of "monotheism vs. polytheism".
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Old March 28th, 2005, 08:11 PM   #20
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So perhaps the Hindu chants are no accident.

Then too, many monotheists do not think Trinitarian Christians are monotheists at all. And in the same sense that they are, one can use the same thinking about the vastly populated pantheons of the polytheistic religions past and present.

Clearly it is a theme he has siezed on. And the modeling of the Cylons after Islamic fundamentalists would be consistant if they become fanatical about that issue in the series.
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Old March 28th, 2005, 08:16 PM   #21
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Gee, I had no idea that Hinduism was the dominant faith of Western Civilization/America, which is supposed to the society that Moore is trying to emulate, last I checked.

And characterizing the Judeo-Christian tradition as something other than monotheism is a lot of things, but being accurate wouldn't be one of them.
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Old March 28th, 2005, 08:26 PM   #22
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Plenty of religions, particularly Islam, have some very valid points regarding how Christianity is not monotheistic.
Such a discussion is certainly drifting way off topic, but to suggest that such arguments do not exist is flat out wrong. And just because you don't accept a particular religion's spin on things does not define what is "accurate" regarding religion. THankfully a higher power will make the call on that score.

Maybe you missed the discussion of Hindu scripture being used in the music of the new series.

Or did someone else make a comment I missed about Hinduism being a dominant faith in North America?
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Old March 28th, 2005, 08:29 PM   #23
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"Plenty of religions, particularly Islam, have some very valid points regarding how Christianity is not monotheistic."

How about letting the Christians speak for themself, if you please?

And if Hindu verse is now being drawn upon for TNS, then that only validates my point that Ron Moore, like most people from a Hollywood background, has very little conception of what the majority of the civilization he wants to emulate in his "realistic" series actually practice.
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Old March 28th, 2005, 08:46 PM   #24
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Gents, this wasn't designed as a springboard into a debate on religion, it was pointing up the vast differences between TOS and TNS and the depictions of the respective characters. Nothing more. Can we keep it a bit closer to topic, please?

In actuality, Eric is closest to my interpretation in that the TNS Colonials are patterned after America - and the polytheism is a huge departure from that depiction, and not a complimentary departure at that, in my view.

I appreciate all the kind words - thanks, all.

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Old March 28th, 2005, 08:52 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
"Plenty of religions, particularly Islam, have some very valid points regarding how Christianity is not monotheistic."

How about letting the Christians speak for themself, if you please?

And if Hindu verse is now being drawn upon for TNS, then that only validates my point that Ron Moore, like most people from a Hollywood background, has very little conception of what the majority of the civilization he wants to emulate in his "realistic" series actually practice.

Absolutely, EP. It is not for naught that the place is often called "Hollyweird". As to Xtianity being "polytheistic", not only is that fallacious, but I could recommend some historical/theological works discussing that very topic.
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Old March 28th, 2005, 08:56 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg

In actuality, Eric is closest to my interpretation in that the TNS Colonials are patterned after America - and the polytheism is a huge departure from that depiction, and not a complimentary departure at that, in my view.
I don't see Colonial religion as poly. When Adama mentions "God", he does not say "the gods". The Lords of Kobol, ancient Kings, are more like the Xtian Saints. One may invoke, call upon, or even pray to them, but they are NOT dieties, in any sense of the word. Human beings. Dead ones, gone on to wherever, but still Humans.
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Old March 28th, 2005, 09:10 PM   #27
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Dawg is referring to the Colonial religion of the Moore series, not TOS.
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Old March 28th, 2005, 09:14 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
Dawg is referring to the Colonial religion of the Moore series, not TOS.

Excusatio.


I have heard the same made against TOS.
Next time, I should post while sober???

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Old March 28th, 2005, 10:46 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Marley
Maybe when Galactica finds Earth, they will introduce the necktie to their long lost brothers.
That was so dry, I'm tempted to ask you "shaken" or "stirred"?

Jewels, lover of dry humor.

They could have gone for cravats (maybe I'm not spelling that right) or something of a more by-gone era. Bolo ties, 1950's narrow ties, bow ties.
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Old March 28th, 2005, 10:49 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senmut
Excusatio.


I have heard the same made against TOS.
Next time, I should post while sober???

Postign wihle soebr is only recomemnded if you wsih to splel coerrctly.

(stone sober but very tired & it's still difficult to do that).
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