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Old January 21st, 2005, 11:58 AM   #31
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I thought it was BST.

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Old January 21st, 2005, 12:13 PM   #32
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The Kung-Fu example that's been cited already makes nonsense of your claim, so I think we can move off this sideshow.
Taoism is not a fictional religion.
The religion of the colonials is a fictional religion.

It is not nonsense, any more so than the claim that the colonials were monotheists.
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Old January 21st, 2005, 12:20 PM   #33
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If the argument is being made that because TOS religion is "fictional" then since TNS would be "Buddhist" lens is therefore "fictional" as well, then that's another reason why you have no basis to object to my initial criticism.
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Old January 21st, 2005, 12:31 PM   #34
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Just in case I missed it earlier on -

I wonder how the Greek/Roman "Gods" figure into the religion of TNS. There have been references to Apollo and Athena - I wonder if they are supposed to be names of the "lords" of Kobol, or what...

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Old January 21st, 2005, 12:43 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini1999
Just in case I missed it earlier on -

I wonder how the Greek/Roman "Gods" figure into the religion of TNS. There have been references to Apollo and Athena - I wonder if they are supposed to be names of the "lords" of Kobol, or what...

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It is starting to look like either they worshiped the Greek pantheon or the Greek pantheon is based on real people who were the "Lord's of Kobol".

Current anthropolgist are considering the real possibility that the Greek "gods" and mythical places were in fact the names of ancient kings, kingdoms, and other major early figures from their prehistory. It looks like TNS is moving in this direction. Wait until Kobols Last Gleaming...
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Old January 21st, 2005, 12:47 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antelope526
It is starting to look like either they worshiped the Greek pantheon or the Greek pantheon is based on real people who were the "Lord's of Kobol".

Current anthropolgist are considering the real possibility that the Greek "gods" and mythical places were in fact the names of ancient kings, kingdoms, and other major early figures from their prehistory. It looks like TNS is moving in this direction. Wait until Kobols Last Gleaming...
Antelope -

That episode is where I got the Apollo and Athena references. The Arrow of Apollo and the Temple of Athena. Another interesting reference is where the preistess tells that "the Gods and the people of Kobol lived together in paradise". I'm very interested to find out about more of the TNS interpretation of life on Kobol before the exodus to the Colonies.

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Old January 21st, 2005, 01:16 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Gemini1999
Antelope -

That episode is where I got the Apollo and Athena references. The Arrow of Apollo and the Temple of Athena. Another interesting reference is where the preistess tells that "the Gods and the people of Kobol lived together in paradise". I'm very interested to find out about more of the TNS interpretation of life on Kobol before the exodus to the Colonies.

Best,
Bryan
I find this all very interesting also. I have read a few things that show that a lot of things in TNS are overlaid on Greek mythology, colonial and cylon. I think we are going to learn a lot about their ancient society and religion. They are discovering their roots. The same way Adama was trying in TOS. I find it interesting that Baltar in TOS says Earth is a myth, while we are led to believe TNS Adama has that same opinion.

Delphi is referenced in the Helo/Boomer Caprica subplot. Again we see references to the ancient Greek religion.

One thing I ponder in this reference, in Greek mythology Illysium Fields was not a spiritual place like our heaven. In antiquity it was believed to be far to the West on an island across the sea where the soul went to upon death. It was a physical location. I wonder if Moore was thinking about this when he came up with the cylon concept of the transmigration of the soul to a real physical place just as the Greeks expected in antiquity.

The gods of ancient Greece could physically move in the world of man. We are filled with stories of their half human offspring and interaction directly between the gods and man in a real physical sense.
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Old January 21st, 2005, 01:29 PM   #38
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I'd go with Antelope's take on TOS' depitiction of religion being in the eye of the beholder, his reasoning was pretty much faultless IMO.

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Old January 21st, 2005, 01:40 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
If the argument is being made that because TOS religion is "fictional" then since TNS would be "Buddhist" lens is therefore "fictional" as well, then that's another reason why you have no basis to object to my initial criticism.
This is gibberish.
No one has claimed BSG has a Buddist lens. Neither version has a Buddist or a Christian lens.

I don't object to your personal beliefs, or interpretations of a tv show, or your own religion.

Simply put, you make it sound like non-J/C faiths are inferior by definition.
Rather than simply say that you did not mean to infer this, you try to build a case for making such a claim.
While it is ok to believe this, it is downright rude to say so.

If I were open about my religious views, you would indeed likely be offended.

For the record, I am entitled to object to any criticism, yours or others. I don't need your blessing for that.
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Old January 21st, 2005, 03:28 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

A Buddhist concept of religious thought being utilized to bring in TOS universe would not only be of zero interest to me, it would be as equally offensive to me from the standpoint of what TOS is supposed to embody.
Now that I've had a chance to properly read through this thread, kindly explain how the above quote says that "a Buddhist concept" is offensive in and of itself. If one reads the entire quote, the clarification is very much apparent by the following - "from the standpoint of what TOS is supposed to embody".

I would be equally resentful.

If Moore wants to provide a back-story to the religious concepts of his show then, more power to him. It's HIS show. Just leave TOS alone!

Can't this so-called miracle worker of science-fiction genre come up with ideas without re-writing another person's work?

This bullfelgercarb is really starting to irk the H*** out of me.

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Old January 21st, 2005, 03:51 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antelope526

In other discussions of TOS I have seen that many TOS fans seem to think that TOS is a polytheistic society and that the "Lords of Kobol" represent that fact. Also the beings of light imply that man may evolve himself into an angelic or God-like being.
Yes, this HAS been discussed before. IIRC, I posted an observation. Does anyone else see it this way?

I view the "Lords of Kobol" are real beings, not gods. In other words, "Lord" as in Ruler, not "Lord" as in Deity. In addition, Colonial society could have mirrored present-day Earth with respect to having multiple religious doctrines. The primary doctrine, to which we were exposed, was that of Caprica (via Adama). There was a recognition, on multiple occasions, as illustrated by Eric on a previous post, where God was referred to in the singular. This could have been peculiar to the religion of the Caprican colonists or could have been shared by members of other Colonies. Also, "Adama's religion" could have merely been the predominant religion of the Colonies with a multitude of other religious groups and/or non-religious groups, just as we have on Earth. We'll just never know for sure, as of this writing.

Just some thoughts.

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Old January 21st, 2005, 07:48 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Darth Marley
I
The bit about "enlightened" view in quotes, is this another covert slam at Buddism?

Obviously, you are hypersensitive. I do not make covert slams; I do it straight out and in the face. Were I going to do so, I would have plainly done so.
What I was referring to was your often elitist tone when responding to those with whom you take umbrage. I don't mind being disagreed with, but I could certainly do without the lecturesque tone of many of your responses.
That being said, who the frack is buying the next round of ambrosia?
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Old January 21st, 2005, 08:26 PM   #43
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Obviously, you are hypersensitive. I do not make covert slams; I do it straight out and in the face. Were I going to do so, I would have plainly done so.
What I was referring to was your often elitist tone when responding to those with whom you take umbrage. I don't mind being disagreed with, but I could certainly do without the lecturesque tone of many of your responses.
That being said, who the frack is buying the next round of ambrosia?
Okay people....

I know that the Criticicm thread is a lightly moderated zone, but the only criticisms that are allowed in this thread are concerning either version of Battlestar Galactica.

When people start criticizing one another, that's the end of the discussion in a pubic manner. If anyone has a problem with an individual, their views, opinions, or anything else, you are quite welcome to do so, but not on the forum.

This stops here and now....

Sincerely,

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Old January 21st, 2005, 11:32 PM   #44
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Who believed in what...

From the intro: Aztecs, Toltecs, Mayans, Atlanteans, Egyptians- Multi gods.
From writer style for Adama and family- Mormon style rituals, One God.

I haven't seen enough of nuBG to say what the colonists religious hints are, but from reading this thread, it sounds multi gods as well.
The nuCylons appear to look to one "god".

The only singular god referrences in osBG seemed to have been Adama and his families beliefs. I don't recall Sheba, Boomer, Cassie, etc ever referrencing to any particular "religion" belief style.

I could be wrong. My memory is not what it once was... if I had a memory in the first place! I don't recall!
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 12:40 AM   #45
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Who believed in what...

From the intro: Aztecs, Toltecs, Mayans, Atlanteans, Egyptians- Multi gods.
From writer style for Adama and family- Mormon style rituals, One God.

I haven't seen enough of nuBG to say what the colonists religious hints are, but from reading this thread, it sounds multi gods as well.
The nuCylons appear to look to one "god".

The only singular god referrences in osBG seemed to have been Adama and his families beliefs. I don't recall Sheba, Boomer, Cassie, etc ever referrencing to any particular "religion" belief style.

I could be wrong. My memory is not what it once was... if I had a memory in the first place! I don't recall!

Where did you last leave your memory, Warrior?

Irreverently,
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 10:48 AM   #46
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Last night I watched the Bastille Day episode of TNS. The words of Tom Zarek to Apollo was very revealing about what the colonial religion (at least the the dominant one we are being exposed to) in TNS is. Their religion is pretty similar to the ancient Greek religion. Tom Zarek referred to Apollo being named after the GOD and LORD OF KOBOL, Apollo. He then referred to Apollo being the son of God, Zeus. He later said something like, Zeus is calling when he was referring to Apollo's father William Adama. It would appear that the "gods" of the TNS colonials were once considered to have been living among them in the physical world, again like Greek mythology.

During that episode two things of real significance occurred to me that makes me consider what is really going on:

First the religious interchange between Zarek and Apollo seemed to be beyond the level of mocking. It seemed as if Zarek had some insight into who Apollo is and that Lee Adama was not ready yet to accept his destiny. If time repeats it may well be that Lee Adama is , was, and will be Apollo, a Lord of Kobol.

On three occasions Lee Adama was told he would have to "choose sides". I think this is again in reference to a greater conflict than what we are seeing at episode level. I think these questions repeated bring into question who or what William Adama, Roslyn, and Zarek really are. I think like in TOS we are seeing the groundwork for the eventual main theme that the cylon-colonial conflict is just a facet of a much larger conflict among who or whatever are the gods of antiquity.

I will repost this in the episode review but I think this is very germane to this thread in particular what Gemini and I were talking about earlier.
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 11:23 AM   #47
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Against my better judgement I'll wade in here.....

Who gives a flying frack!!!!! I'm sorry but we waste so much time worrying about what religious overtones are being made on a Sci-Fi TV show.... I always felt there was a both a monotheistic and a polythiestic overtone to TOS... TNS the Colonials obviously are polythiestic, Cylons are monotheistic. Does this all really matter? Its a TV show! Where is everyone screaming about the lack entirely of religion in both Stargate series, or virtually any Sci-Fi series today. I give RDM credit for including discussion of religion at all in TNS, he could have totally left it alone, but it is a significant subtext in the show. Why are we so worried if something is J/C or Buddhist, or whatever? I'm a very active Roman Catholic Christian, but I don't expect all of my programming needs to have that overtone.

RDM isn't trying to push any type of relgious agenda from what I can tell, and I have WATCHED all 12 episodes so far. He is attempting to create a type of religion for humans from another STAR SYSTEM that may be related to some of our ancient religions to create a tie between Earth and the Colonials. Same thing that Larson did in TOS in a slightly different way. I don't think anyone is attempting to evangelize anyone with anything, Larson or RDM, they are just trying to create an interesting back story.

It just really pisses me off that people can make all kinds of comments and suggestions about a show they have never even WATCHED. Eric, all respects to your comments, I can feel your pain, but come on, are you even watching the show????? It would be like me trying to comment on Christianity if I was a Buddhist, strictly off of what I had read in second hand accounts. It just doesn't work. If people hate Christianity, they will hate Christianity no matter what the truth may be. Just like some may hate TNS, they always will, so why try to bring everyone down who does enjoy it? Just my two cubits!
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 11:26 AM   #48
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Good golly Miss Molly!
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 11:31 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BST

If Moore wants to provide a back-story to the religious concepts of his show then, more power to him. It's HIS show. Just leave TOS alone!

Can't this so-called miracle worker of science-fiction genre come up with ideas without re-writing another person's work?
So Desanto's continuation was stealing from Larsons original work as well. So what is your point? You can't have it both ways, it is supposed to be a remake of BSG, thus it will need to take things from the original show with some changes put in. Either RDM takes to much from TOS or not enough... I guess you can never make everyone happy.

Edit: fixed missing quote tag.
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 11:40 AM   #50
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Oh and another thing!!!! BWAHAHAHAAHA... Okay I'm calm now! HEHEEHEHE
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 11:43 AM   #51
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"Who gives a flying frack!!!!!"

I do. I grew up as a fan of TOS and stayed a fan because it happens to be the only sci-fi TV show I know of, let alone one of the few examples of popular entertainment where I can see a treatment of religon sympathetic to that of a Judeo-Christian perspective on many things. Those of us who see Hollywood as a community that is typically condescending and vindictive toward that perspective, often have very few things that we can embrace as our own, and for me at least, Galactica was one nice example I could point to, and when the matter comes up of this property being reimagined to promote a different religious subtext, especially if it were to potentially involve some tying together with TOS, then that is something I have legit cause to object to because it comes off ultimately not just as showing further disrespect for the source material but on another level the same old, same old Hollywood attitude of pushing any religious subtext that is as far afield from the one practiced by the majority of people in Western Civilization.

"I'm sorry but we waste so much time worrying about what religious overtones are being made on a Sci-Fi TV show."

When there's a consistent pattern in sci-fi of showing disdain for the religious values of Judeo-Christian civilization, it is a legit issue.

"TNS the Colonials obviously are polythiestic, Cylons are monotheistic. Does this all really matter?"

It does when TOS stood for something different. Maybe someone who has the view that all religions are equal in terms of what they represent can make the argument you're making but that doesn't fly with someone from my perspective.

"Where is everyone screaming about the lack entirely of religion in both Stargate series, or virtually any Sci-Fi series today."

I don't give a flying fig about other sci-fi series, most of which I can usually count on to reflect the similar negative view of a Judeo-Christian type religion. Let's stick to Galactica, and the matter of how this show is being changed in another way from it's origins that doesn't sit well with someone who liked TOS for this reason among other things.

"He is attempting to create a type of religion for humans from another STAR SYSTEM "

I'm sorry but if he's going to ape contemporary America at every possible turn in terms of creating Colonial society, then it seems to me that the least he can do is have his Colonial society practice a religion more true to that society and polytheism isn't it, (let alone not being true to the kind of religion practiced by the mainstream of TOS).

"It just really pisses me off that people can make all kinds of comments and suggestions about a show they have never even WATCHED."

This has to do with my comments on what someone else shared about a potential direction TNS was going in, and that made it fair game for me to offer my views on that comment in the "Stealth" thread. Am I supposed to sit on my hands and not say anything when that description of where this series is potentially going is made fair game for all of us to read?

"If people hate Christianity, they will hate Christianity"

And as I see it, Hollywood's hatred of Christianity and the Judeo-Christian tradition has long been the kind of thing about popular entertainment that keeps me away from all forms of it, and the last thing I want to see or accept meekly is the idea of a property called "Battlestar Galactica" being reimagined from a concept that bucked the trend and was sympathetic to the Judeo-Christian perspective of the universe into something that reflects a radically different mindset. I would never feel this way about a purely original property that decided to use Buddhism for its subtext, but the bottom line remains that TNS will *never* be a completely original property and it's because of that, that it becomes a lot easier to feel a sense of anger over the fundamental changes that have been made.
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 12:02 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BST

If Moore wants to provide a back-story to the religious concepts of his show then, more power to him. It's HIS show. Just leave TOS alone!

Can't this so-called miracle worker of science-fiction genre come up with ideas without re-writing another person's work?
So Desanto's continuation was stealing from Larsons original work as well. So what is your point? You can't have it both ways, it is supposed to be a remake of BSG, thus it will need to take things from the original show with some changes put in. Either RDM takes to much from TOS or not enough... I guess you can never make everyone happy.

Edit: fixed missing quote tag.

nextceo,

No offense and with all due respect, did you think about that statement before you typed it? If a person is doing a Continuation, he or she will NEED to use elements from the Original source material, in order to provide continuity.

With respect to Moore's work, he has "reset the clock" back to the beginning. His IS the original source material, with regards to TNS. In addition, considering his and Eick's boasts about this show being a "reinvention of the genre", why bother going back to TOS for anything? My question was a matter of questioning Moore's creativity in terms of providing his OWN backstory for the various elements in TNS. I admit to thinking that this entire idea of linking the 2 shows is so incredibly far-fetched that it pushes the limits of believability. On the other hand, why would there even be consideration, by the PTB, of linking TOS and TNS? Do they consider that a nod to TOS Traditionalists? Or, are they using every method possible to rein in those so-called "few in number" die-hards?

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Old January 22nd, 2005, 12:29 PM   #53
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Phew!!!!
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 12:34 PM   #54
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God's name is Pete?


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I thought it was BST.


'Bout dang time someone recognized that!

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Old January 22nd, 2005, 02:59 PM   #55
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Phew!!!!
I second that.
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 03:00 PM   #56
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Pardon me being so thick, but why is this thread called "Stealth"?
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 03:15 PM   #57
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Senmut,

Eric began this thread as a response to another thread appparently called "Stealth Continuation" elsehwhere on this board.

But, because what he had to write would basically come down more as a criticism of the new show, and not necessarily a glowing response to the original Stealth Continuation thread, he felt that the Criticisms forum would be the most appropriate place to post this.

And for that, I applaud his forethoght.

Respectfully,
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 04:45 PM   #58
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So Desanto's continuation was stealing from Larsons original work as well. So what is your point? You can't have it both ways, it is supposed to be a remake of BSG, thus it will need to take things from the original show with some changes put in. Either RDM takes to much from TOS or not enough... I guess you can never make everyone happy.

Edit: fixed missing quote tag.
Take the blinders off

nuBG isn't a remake (that'd follow the SAME story)

nuBG is a re-imagining, thus is something enterily new. A different version.

A different version would need to have different versions of everything the original had.
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 04:50 PM   #59
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To be honest Darrell, I can hardly call this a reimagining. That implies some similarity with the original.

This is a totally different creature. So unbelievably different. Some ideas have been reused. But its a completely different animal.

I mentioned in another thread that this show feels more like Law And Order than Battlestar Galactica.

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Old January 22nd, 2005, 04:57 PM   #60
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To be honest Darrell, I can hardly call this a reimagining. That implies some similarity with the original.

This is a totally different creature. So unbelievably different. Some ideas have been reused. But its a completely different animal.
Isn't that basically what I said?


Quote:
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nuBG is a re-imagining, thus is something entirely new. A different version.

A different version would need to have different versions of everything the original had.
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