The Ancient Astronaut aspects of BSG

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by WarMachine

This bit has been bugging me all night. We have no idea what a previous, technological civilization would leave behind -- we can merely extrapolate based on our "verifiable" history(and there is a lot of room to maneuver on that score!).

We're not even sure where they're build-site/industrial center would be.

Additionally, if "Catastrophy X"® were to happen today, reducing current Human society to the Stone Age or worse, how much of our industrial footprint would be left 500-1000 years from now? Not much.

I am reminded of a WW2 book, "American Guerilla in the Phillipines", about a US soldier who escaped the surrender at Bataan/Corrigador and fought in the jungle until 1944. When they were trying to rig up a telegraph system, the main problem they had wasn't the Japanese...it was simple bandits, who would steal the copper wire in the night right off of the trees, to sell back to the Japanese.

Most of our industry, if left unattended, would simply rust away inside of 1000 years; add in riots/looting/wars/land-clearance/all-of-the-above, and most of our signature will be dust and rust, figuratively overnight.

As a straight-out speculation: Let's suppose a "technological" civilization existed c.11000-10000BC; now, completely destroy it -- the means are largely irrelevant. knock whoever survived back to a pre-Stone Age level.

Now, run the clock forward c.5000 years.

What would be left?

1. Foundations of buildings.
2. Mines and their tailings.
3. Cities.
4. Roads and railroads.
5. Artifacts.(Yes; actual helicopter parts- some of those plastics and ceranics are vitually indestructable by any local natural process short of heat- and you would recognize the slag as manmade.)
6. Their environmental pollution.
7. Word of mouth/legends.
7. And if they were our equals?

SATELLITES IN ORBIT.

After all we dig up trilobites, don't we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilobite

Trilobite

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
?Trilobite
Fossil range: Cambrian - Permian

Asaphiscus wheeleri, a trilobite
from Cambrian-age shale in Utah
Scientific classification
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Arthropoda
Class: Trilobita
Walch, 1771

Orders
Agnostida
Redlichiida
Corynexochida
Lichida
Phacopida
Proetida
Asaphida
Harpetida
Ptychopariida
Proposed order
Nektaspida

Trilobites are extinct arthropods in the class Trilobita. They appeared in the Cambrian era and flourished throughout the lower Palaeozoic before slowly declining to extinction. The last of the trilobites disappeared in the mass extinction at the end of the Permian 250 million years ago. Trilobites are well-known, possibly the second most famous fossil group after the dinosaurs, and are the most diverse group of animal species preserved in the fossil record, consisting of eight, possibly nine, orders and over 15,000 species. Most were simple, small marine animals that filtered mud to obtain food.

That is 250 million years DEAD.

Best wishes;

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

1. Foundations of buildings.

Not if an asteroid impact did the killing, leaving nothing but a crater and destroyed it all.

2. Mines and their tailings.

Mines can collapse and disappear. Besides, perhaps they didn't have mines, not the way we do them.

3. Cities.

Whatever catastrophe would have wiped out an advanced civillization would be devastating. More than enough to destroy cities - or submerge them. End of the Ice Age, water levels rose 120 meters, most cities of ours are near water; they'd all be under water, and probably most of it utterly destroyed. There are quite a few sites around the world under water that people have identified as artificial.

4. Roads and railroads.

Long gone; the little bits remaining we wouldn't recognise.

5. Artifacts.(Yes; actual helicopter parts- some of those plastics and ceranics are vitually indestructable by any local natural process short of heat- and you would recognize the slag as manmade.)

We didn't always use plastics and ceramics, no reason why they would have used them, or would have used destrcuctable ones. There's always the heat of lava and volcanic eruptions.

6. Their environmental pollution.

Who says they made any? Ever consider the possiblity they were wiser than us, and looked for clean technology? Or perhaps they did pollute, but cleaned up as it started to become unbearable.

7. Word of mouth/legends.

PLENTY of them around, Atlantis the most famous.

7. And if they were our equals?

SATELLITES IN ORBIT.

Nope, would have decayed and burned up in Earth's atmosphere a long time ago. And of course, that is assuming the even if there WERE satillites in orbit, NASA and the governments would have made it public.

After all we dig up trilobites, don't we?

Ah, yes, but those died and packed and were preserved in special conditions and didn't get wiped out by the first following desaster, stored hidden way under many, many, many layers of rock and ground...

Kinda like there are thse many, many, many, many layers of Ice on Antartica. If the civilliastion was located there - we'd find nothing now, nothing at all, not until we burn through all that ice and burn around on the dirt of the continent itself.

[Damocles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damocles


The Helocene climate of North Africa was one of wide shallow lakes, grasslands and seasonal rainfall. To be honest we don't have good data from that region of the world because nobody has done the crap with the tree rings and the soil cores, seed spore counts, that we've done in Europe and North America.

And that's stated in that site with exactly how much evidence?

The archaeologists worked from background knowledge. With this evidence;


[url]http://www.faiyum.historians.co.uk/html/egypt.html[url]





Quote:


So we know they had grasslands and 1500 years of seasonal rain before they went bonedry about 7000 years ago. Not enough time to erode Mister Sphinx.

Well, if Mr. Sphynx like some say is more like 10,000 - 12,500 years old, it would be 3,000 to 5,500 years, and at a time when the last ice age ended, and there was MUCH more rain.

See above. The Nile like the Mississippi migrates over time all over the place. Including about ten thousand years ago OVER GIZA.


Quote:


Now we have a question. It took some kind of chisel and hammer to carve Mister Sphinx.

Has any remains of tools capable of working that stone Sphinx been uncovered that predates the Old Kingdom? Remember you can use a chisel made of hard obsidian on that soft crumbly stone but the stone tends to splinter and shatter when you strike it with too much force on the stone that forms the head. Wedge cutting is better, when worked with wooden mallets and animal horn or copper tools. When did copper show up?

http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/trades/metals.htm

About 7000 years ago at the earliest.

You wouldn't need hard obsidian, you can use softer stone. Some stones are sharper than our artificial metal tools. They could have been using them. Plus of course, something WIPED them out, virtually COMPLETELY. A natural disaster of immense magnitudes; can easily destroy and wash away tools. And if it IS done by a previous advanced civilization, they probably didn't use hammer and chisel at all.

We would see the evidence geologically. You can't miss that kind of civilization destroying event. The footprint is too big and there are always artifacts-always.


As to the type tools?


1.. The Sphinx shows tool marks.


2, Most hard stones struck either flake or shatter or split along cleave lines.





Quote:


Let us look at the nearest sizaqble groups of Egyptians to Giza circa 7000 Before present.

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/GeogHist/histories/Oldcivilization/Egyptology/Ecological/magf4a.htm

Mostly grain farmers, herders, and fishermen living in villages. This condition persisited for the most part until about 6000 thousand years before today.

Again, stated without evidence. That's their interpretation. Obviously if the Sphynx was carved some 10,000 years ago, there were a civilization there, wiped out beyond nearly all evidence.

We know that there is no footprint of a catastrophe to support this.(See above.)



Quote:


Probably when Thutmoses the fourth put his stupid Sthele between its paws.

Of course you could always buy into the theory that the face was carved to resemble one of these gentlemen:

http://guardians.net/egypt/sphinx/sphinx1.htm

I think that gives an idea that the Sphinx has been dug out at least four times.

http://maps.unomaha.edu/Maher/geo11...adiometric.html

You core drill the rock at selected sites to date the formation date.(Control), then you massspectrograph the surface samples to date the contamination against the core groups. Rock chiselled face is then dated. If you get lucky you find a piece of bone chisel stuck in the sculpture You carbon 14 that.

There are ways to do this. It isn't easy but you can measure the artifact with a lot less guessing than looking at runnels.

Speaking of erosion-waterborne versus windborne; has anyone on this forum ever sandblasted limestone? I am curious if you could describe the difference between wetblasting and dryblasting if you noticed any.

Wait, wait. You're saying that the head WAS recarved even if the Sphynx is young, but you're saying the head will show it was carved first anyhow? Any evidence of the earliest carving would be removed with the recarving, so the Sphynx head would STILL show to be the last carving, not the first either way.

That Sphinx head still has original surface present. You can see this. Look at the face around the broken off nose or the top of the head.

Second if it's recarved, as even you say it is judging by the obvious missmatch in size, then you'd have to do it for not just the head, but all of the Sphynx - you'd get the date of the youngest recarving after all, which has nothing to do with the actual age of the Sphynx, and the first time it was carved.

I said you would sample the whole sphinx, and as I pointed out the silly thing has original carving surface present.

And I would say it's even more guessing. Contamination? The biggest contamination would be our industrial pol[l]ut[a]nts; some of them might very well have removed earlier pollutants. An erosion pattern is an erosion pattern, and if that pattern can't have happened before at least this many years ago, you know it has to be at least that old.

Erosian patterns are subject to force of wear, size of grit, and the frangibility of the material worn. A sandblaster wears rock away in seconds. Wind blown sand takes decades. Water borne sand carried by rain takes CENTURIES.

Finally, radio-dating is rather useless. Unlike 'established' science would like you to believe, radioactive decay is anything but stable, it changes constantly. That's just one problem, but even if it were stable, any radio-dating will only work properly until the last time there was a significant climatologicaly change. With such a change, a difference in radioactive particles in the atmosphere and rock (if it's happened because of a (radioa-active) meteorite impact we'll have no idea about, and the whole dating is hinged on that we know the starting concentration of radioactive to non-radiaoctive decayed material.

True for carbon 14, not triue for potassium/argon dating where the half life is NOT SUBJECT to biological source contamination.or distortion;


http://id-archserve.ucsb.edu/Anth3/C...on_Dating.html

Quote:


Originally Posted by jjrakman


But could the climate have been different, perhaps tropical, if the axis of the Earth had changed at some point in antiquity.

The Piri Reis map was drawn 300 years before Antartica was discovered, and was said to be copied from older sources. What's even more unusual about it, is that it shows what the landmass of antartica looks like, under the ice cap. The last period of ice-free Antartic was what, 6000 years ago? What if the original source of the map was drawn at a time when the Earth's axis was different from it's present position, allowing for a warmer climate for Antartica, and thus a tropical climate for Egypt? Is that possible?

They SAY at least 400,000 years since Antartica was last not covered in ice. However, that is based on carbon dating, which is just plain silly. Carbon dating - even if it was totally the way the conventional 'scientists' sy it - is useless beyond 50,000. Of course, in real life if it were scientifically sound it's useless beyond the last major climatological change some 12,500 years ago. In real life though, the dating is ueless all together.

You should read a bit on carbon dates found, it's fantastically laughable. 1600 years here, 1000 years in the next tree over, and another tree a meter further it's 2,000 years, and then they say the samples are 1500 years old nicely in the middle.

Those antartica maps were inventions of fancy;


http://www.strangehorizons.com/2002/...val_maps.shtml


Antartica has been under ice;http://www.polar.org/antsun/oldissue...nosaurs-t.html and stuck in place for more than fifteen million years.


Best wishes;

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

Not if an asteroid impact did the killing, leaving nothing but a crater and destroyed it all.

We see the crater and the spall. plus the outlying civilization remains or we become extinct. It would have to be a K-T event to obbliterate an Egyptian sized civilization's footprint.

Mines can collapse and disappear. Besides, perhaps they didn't have mines, not the way we do them.

The tailings don't.

Whatever catastrophe would have wiped out an advanced civillization would be devastating. More than enough to destroy cities - or submerge them. End of the Ice Age, water levels rose 120 meters, most cities of ours are near water; they'd all be under water, and probably most of it utterly destroyed. There are quite a few sites around the world under water that people have identified as artificial.

Ships.

Long gone; the little bits remaining we wouldn't recognise.

I recognize worked metal even if it is slagged. Something as big as the helicopter, I would recognize the castings-especially aluminum which is persistent in its worked state.

We didn't always use plastics and ceramics, no reason why they would have used them, or would have used destrcuctable ones. There's always the heat of lava and volcanic eruptions.

Unlikely that a volcanoe as big as Yosemite was active in Egypt(no caldera thirty miles across). They would use aluminum and worked glass and that would survive.(see above.)

Who says they made any? Ever consider the possiblity they were wiser than us, and looked for clean technology? Or perhaps they did pollute, but cleaned up as it started to become unbearable.

You smelt or refine you pollute. Period. That is chemistry.

PLENTY of them around, Atlantis the most famous.

TROY.

Nope, would have decayed and burned up in Earth's atmosphere a long time ago. And of course, that is assuming the even if there WERE satillites in orbit, NASA and the governments would have made it public.

I use a telescope and track satellites. Also geosynchromnous satellites have orbits that last 900,000 years plus and if you look up with a telescope in the night sky you see them.

Ah, yes, but those died and packed and were preserved in special conditions and didn't get wiped out by the first following desaster, stored hidden way under many, many, many layers of rock and ground...

Still dug up weren't they?

Kinda like there are thse many, many, many, many layers of Ice on Antartica. If the civilliastion was located there - we'd find nothing now, nothing at all, not until we burn through all that ice and burn around on the dirt of the continent itself

Ahem, We are digging up buried dinosaurs from under that ice sheet.(see antartica ice citation.)

Best wishes.

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by Damocles

1. Foundations of buildings.

...Assuming that nothing else currently occupies them...and assuming that we have dug them up; the mud covering the Tigris/Euphrates Basin is pretty deep

Originally Posted by Damocles

2. Mines and their tailings.

...When the British were first moving into Rhodesia in the 19th Century, they used to pay the natives in blankets to show the "the old mines"; Central Africa is riddled with mines that no one is quite sure are how old...

Originally Posted by Damocles

3. Cities.

...Like Mojeno-Daro? Sumer? Ur? How deep is that mud? How deep is the ocean, for that matter, and where, exactly were the coastlines with all that water frozen on the surface?

Originally Posted by Damocles

4. Roads and railroads.

Even though the Romans built extremely durable roads and cities, c.1500 years of decay, neglect and war have largely erased all but the largest and most well-known...

Originally Posted by Damocles

5. Artifacts.(Yes; actual helicopter parts- some of those plastics and ceranics are vitually indestructable by any local natural process short of heat- and you would recognize the slag as manmade.)

...Why the assumption that they would do things in precisely the same way as us? Why assume that you would even recognize a "machine part" as such? Why assume that such parts were not scavenged immediately? Even if they were turned into art?

More importantly, what if I walked up to you and showed you a spark plug that had been dug out of virgin rock? While you might be willing to accept that, mainstream science will write it off as "salt".

Every time.

Originally Posted by Damocles

6. Their environmental pollution.

Define, please? The planet will clean the air by itself, if we were to cease the vast majority of artificial emissions, and the majority of chemicals would be washed out over the inteveneing millenia. Uranium? See the first part of my answer to #5...

Originally Posted by Damocles

7. Word of mouth/legends.

"Ezekial Saw__The Wheel -- WAY Up 'n t' Middle o' the Air!" -- Do I need to even mention the "A" word? Or the "L" word, for that matter?

Originally Posted by Damocles

7. And if they were our equals?

SATELLITES IN ORBIT.

...Which have a nasty habit of degrading their orbits over time, and being exposed to impacts from fast-moving rocks...

Also, have you ever heard of the Brookings Report of 1960? http://www.enterprisemission.com/brooking.html

Originally Posted by Damocles

Trilobite

That is 250 million years DEAD.

And how many existed then? What we are finding are lucky accidents.....

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

Quote:
The archaeologists worked from background knowledge. With this evidence;


[url]http://www.faiyum.historians.co.uk/html/egypt.html[url]

400 bad request.


[quote]Quote:


So we know they had grasslands and 1500 years of seasonal rain before they went bonedry about 7000 years ago. Not enough time to erode Mister Sphinx.


See above. The Nile like the Mississippi migrates over time all over the place. Including about ten thousand years ago OVER GIZA. [/qoute]

Above? Above where?

We would see the evidence geologically. You can't miss that kind of civilization destroying event. The footprint is too big and there are always artifacts-always.

Yes, scientists do, especially if they god blinders on. Look up the book "When The Earth Nearly Died," by DS. Allan and J.B. Delair. Make no mistake, their ultimate cause of the catclysm is wrong, the evidence they name is very real. Scientists have been going with a dogmatic view that nothing ever really happened to this Earth in recent times, and completely ignore evidence, anomalous data, and sometimes even show ridiculous bounds of logic in order to make it fit with the prevalant dogma.

We know that there is no footprint of a catastrophe to support this.(See above.)

Oh, yes there is.

That Sphinx head still has original surface present. You can see this. Look at the face around the broken off nose or the top of the head.

Around the broken off nose? pretty much the entire nose would be one of the major recarvings, there'd be NOTHING left of the original face around area. Top of the head is also impossible. The head is MUCH to small for the body. There'd have be about a meter or so more rock above it to get the proper height of the head. Again, the top would have NOTHING left of the original head.

I said you would sample the whole sphinx, and as I pointed out the silly thing has original carving surface present.

Not on the head.

Erosian patterns are subject to force of wear, size of grit, and the frangibility of the material worn. A sandblaster wears rock away in seconds. Wind blown sand takes decades. Water borne sand carried by rain takes CENTURIES.

Which has what to do with anything?

Those antartica maps were inventions of fancy;


http://www.strangehorizons.com/2002/...val_maps.shtml

Ooh! I like that site - the classic example of a debunking site, the worth of which is: bullfelgercarb.

The recipe;

Tirst one establishes that you know nothing, but I know everything.

Then I give a string of facts that barely has anything to do with the subject, and places them in enough of a form that appears as you never knew it, I do, and it is such important information.

Thus you have just read through a felgercarbload of useless information and facts, not relevent to the topic but might give the reader the impression that one has been part of an large piece discussing the subject at hand.

Then I come to the actual subject at hand, and dismiss it in a few lines and some vague claims without ever bothering to coroborate those claims with evidence, or bother to discuss the ENTIRE subject, only taking one tiny thing of it, and through that say the entire subject is thus no relevant.

Thus anyone who doesn't look very closely just thought he read exactly how thinks really are, and go back to his normal life happily knowing that the superior science guy has provided all the mundane answers.



The little site fails to address that the map is drawn over from much OLDER maps, for one thing dating before 1492. The map still carries a very accurate depiction of the Americas which everyone thought didn't exist at the time, also an accurate depiction of greenland beneath the ice, including where the mountain ranges are. Nice site, but useless.

Antartica has been under ice;http://www.polar.org/antsun/oldissue...nosaurs-t.html and stuck in place for more than fifteen million years.


Best wishes;

Ah, well, problem with Antartica dating is very simply, bad science, upon adhering to a wrong paradigm (or should I say relgious view), compounded by several more bad practices.

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

We see the crater and the spall. plus the outlying civilization remains or we become extinct. It would have to be a K-T event to obbliterate an Egyptian sized civilization's footprint.

A hyper-dimensional event actually: where heading to another one; reversing of the north and south pole, is according to conventional science a few 1000 years late, according to HD physics it's right on scedule, somewhere in the next century or two it should come.

The tailings don't.

Even they can decay. Plus, if an scientist would find it now, do you think he'd 'date' the mine as somewhere in the past 5,000 years or much earlier? Even if it's earlier?

Ships.

Huh?

I recognize worked metal even if it is slagged. Something as big as the helicopter, I would recognize the castings-especially aluminum which is persistent in its worked state.

There wouldn't be anything left of a helicopter. And you would, archeologists don't. Archeologists are only trained to recognize pottery and such; after all there was no advanced technology in the past, so you don't need to recognize it. Even if they'd recognize it, they'd just toss it away on the garbage as modern contamination.

Unlikely that a volcanoe as big as Yosemite was active in Egypt(no caldera thirty miles across). They would use aluminum and worked glass and that would survive.(see above.)

Not Egypt. There are other places on the world.

You smelt or refine you pollute. Period. That is chemistry.

Which will be cleaned up by the Earth, can be cleaned up by us if we put our minds to it.

TROY.

No.

I use a telescope and track satellites. Also geosynchromnous satellites have orbits that last 900,000 years plus and if you look up with a telescope in the night sky you see them.

You may track satellites, but can you see from here if it's one of ours or one that's been there for 10,000 years?

900,00 years providing their guidance system and correctional rockets stay intact all those years. With micro meteorites flying about; I'd say none of our satellites stay in orbit for even a mere 1,000 years.

Still dug up weren't they?

Yes, but they are expected, no archeologist or paleontologist will toss them away as modern contamination.

Ahem, We are digging up buried dinosaurs from under that ice sheet.(see antartica ice citation.)

Best wishes.

No, we are not. At high altitudes: as in in the mountains where ice is much, much, much thinner perhaps. We however do not drill and dig down kilometers and kilometers of ice, big enough to let a human through, and have the means to getting them down and back. And would there be cities on the mountain tops? Don't think so, they'd be down below.

[3DMaster]

^^Weird. A large piece of damocles post doesn't show, and the answers I gave to those sections don't show up two posts up either. You'd have to push the 'quote' button to read it.

1. Foundations of buildings.
2. Mines and their tailings.
3. Cities.
4. Roads and railroads.
5. Artifacts.(Yes; actual helicopter parts- some of those plastics and ceranics are vitually indestructable by any local natural process short of heat- and you would recognize the slag as manmade.)
6. Their environmental pollution.
7. Word of mouth/legends.
7. And if they were our equals?

SATELLITES IN ORBIT.

After all we dig up trilobites, don't we?

If there were sucg a catastrophe, I would tend to think it would have been on such a scale so as to unimaginable. More than a simple meteor shower or asteroid, probably something more on the scale of a planetoid. As far as #7, there's legends of an ancient catastrophe and a prior high tech civilization, ala a "Golden Age" from just about eery ancient and primitive culture around the world. The Biblical Deluge is one. Atlantis is another. The Hopi have some interesting tales, and ther are many many others.

But here we have an additional problem if the proposed catastrophe were so complete and widespread, much of what is now above land may have been under water, and vice versa. Underwater archaeology is just beginning to uncover some interesting things.

Having said that, Forbidden Archeology does present some interesting artifacts that deserve close attention.

Antartica has been under ice;http://www.polar.org/antsun/oldissu...inosaurs-t.html and stuck in place for more than fifteen million years.

Yes, the article states this, but it doesn't really state how they knows it. all they state is how they know that Antartica was once warmer. Unless I missed something?

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

A hyper-dimensional event actually: where heading to another one; reversing of the north and south pole, is according to conventional science a few 1000 years late, according to HD physics it's right on scedule, somewhere in the next century or two it should come.

Don't confuse magnetic pole transposition with new age theories. The Earth flips magnetic polarity routinely about every half million years. We see that in the polarity of magnetic ores that we find striated as a result of vulcanism.

Even they can decay. Plus, if an scientist would find it now, do you think he'd 'date' the mine as somewhere in the past 5,000 years or much earlier? Even if it's earlier?

The tailings do not. They just distribute across the landscape as rubble. its worked rock. You can see this.

Huh?

Civilizations equal to ours build ships. Those sink. We'd find them. We find Roman ones, even Egyptian ones.

There wouldn't be anything left of a helicopter. And you would, archeologists don't. Archeologists are only trained to recognize pottery and such; after all there was no advanced technology in the past, so you don't need to recognize it. Even if they'd recognize it, they'd just toss it away on the garbage as modern contamination.

A lump of cast aviation grade aluminum that was a swash plate is as big as a man's torso and I don't need to be an aviation engineer or an industrial contractor to identify hinge points or load bearing pintles.

Not Egypt. There are other places on the world.

http://www.geo.mtu.edu/volcanoes/world.html

Likelyy candidates;

-Western United States
-Central America
-Eastern Aegean
-Italy
-Japan
All other areas lack the resources for a civilization of the first rank and the big fat volcanoe nearby to wipe it out. No footprint of minimg riverine pollution or metal working exists that are in those areas 11,000 years before present.

Which will be cleaned up by the Earth, can be cleaned up by us if we put our minds to it.

Heavy metal poisons take tens of thousands of year to leach out of mine tailings. There will be pitchblend contamination in the Nigerian and Alberta mines' tailings long after the sun bloats to red giant stage.

No.

THERA, then. But TROY was real. It bis mentioned as a Hitite client state and ally.

You may track satellites, but can you see from here if it's one of ours or one that's been there for 10,000 years?

Why not? With a three inch(75 mm) reflector you can tell the difference between Russian and American. Alien would be alien and you would know it immediately. It would look WRONG.

900,000 years providing their guidance system and correctional rockets stay intact all those years. With micro meteorites flying about; I'd say none of our satellites stay in orbit for even a mere 1,000 years.

You need to check your micrometeor population statistics(one collision a century by a grain of sand) and satellite orbital decay mechanics. A Geo satellite out of fuel tumbles. That is all. It doesn't spiral in. That is the point of sticking it out so far; so that it is in stable orbit whose rate of advance is synchronous with the rotation of the Earth.

Yes, but they are expected, no archeologist or paleontologist will toss them away as modern contamination.

Nor would an archaeologist throw away the Baghdad battery or a helicopter swash plate.

No, we are not. At high altitudes: as in in the mountains where ice is much, much, much thinner perhaps. We however do not drill and dig down kilometers and kilometers of ice, big enough to let a human through, and have the means to getting them down and back. And would there be cities on the mountain tops?(D. edit) Don't think so, they'd be down below.

Cuzco, Denver.

The dinos were under the permafrost. And the civlization if it were as omnipresent as our own would leave their trash everywhere. If it is there, we will find it.

ADDENDUM

Map debunking;
http://www.intersurf.com/~chalcedony/FOG4.html

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/P...riReis_eng.htm

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/P...Buache_eng.htm

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/P.../Atlantide.htm (You need Italian for this, sorry. D.)

Dating from antartic ice drilled cores.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html

Best wishes.

[WarMachine]

I am en route to bed, but I wanted to answer a couple of these.....

Originally Posted by Damocles

Civilizations equal to ours build ships. Those sink. We'd find them. We find Roman ones, even Egyptian ones.

....Sure -- usually, as in almost always, by sheer accident. The vast majority of manmade ships exist in what amounts to a sea of solvent. Even the steel-hulls under Truk lagoon will vanish in c.1000yrs; we might be able to find them if we know what we're looking for, but even that's a stretch....

Originally Posted by Damocles

A lump of cast aviation grade aluminum that was a swash plate is as big as a man's torso and I don't need to be an aviation engineer or an industrial contractor to identify hinge points or load bearing pintles.

That's not the point. The fact that you would look at it and know what it is automatically marks it as site-contamination for an archeologist...and no matter how hard you argure that test 'X' places it's construction at 13000BC, the archeologist will pat you on the head, and tell you that the very science that he relies on to date his material is flatly wrong when it comes to your swash plate -- because, as a certain curator once said, "...What are you left with? You have Culture A -- Culture B -- and nothing in between. Where's the link?"...assuming that the unwashed peasants will never once question whether Culture B might actually be Culture G......

Originally Posted by Damocles

THERA, then. But TROY was real. It bis mentioned as a Hitite client state and ally.

Not sure of your point, here. Everyone assumed that stories of El Dorado were fables, until air-surveys of the Amazon basin confirmed a far higher population count - complete with a massive road and canal network - than anyone previously believed....

Originally Posted by Damocles

Nor would an archaeologist throw away the Baghdad battery or a helicopter swash plate.

Oh, that's not true at all...The only reason the Baghdad Battery didn't get tossed in the trash at Square One was that it didn't have Duracell® printed on it; in fact, IIRC, archeologists couldn't figure out what it was -- it took an electrical engineer with an archeology hobby working in the British Museum to figure it out...They hadn't even run a simple chemical analysis on their samples, which would have revealed the acids...Also, remember the Antikthera[sp?] Mechanism - now proven to be part of the gearing of a highly advanced astrolabe[sp?], c.1800yrs old - was nearly tossed as salt.....

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by WarMachine

I am en route to bed, but I wanted to answer a couple of these.....


....Sure -- usually, as in almost always, by sheer accident. The vast majority of manmade ships exist in what amounts to a sea of solvent. Even the steel-hulls under Truk lagoon will vanish in c.1000yrs; we might be able to find them if we know what we're looking for, but even that's a stretch....

1. Seapower is seapower. You understand that, you go where the ocean chokepoints and the sheltered anchorages are. You dive for wrecks there as that is where the storms and naval battles sink ships.

That's not the point. The fact that you would look at it and know what it is automatically marks it as site-contamination for an archeologist...and no matter how hard you argure that test 'X' places it's construction at 13000BC, the archeologist will pat you on the head, and tell you that the very science that he relies on to date his material is flatly wrong when it comes to your swash plate -- because, as a certain curator once said, "...What are you left with? You have Culture A -- Culture B -- and nothing in between. Where's the link?"...assuming that the unwashed peasants will never once question whether Culture B might actually be Culture G......

2. Refer back to what I said about satellites previously? The gonzo archaeologist might not know it is a helicopter swash plate; but he would know it was a forged casting and he would ask me. Then I would talk to a metallurgist buddy of mine and he would test it for composition. That would tell us;
-a Is it cast the way we would do it? There are several methods for doing this-(American and European methods differ significantly.) Something he wouldn't recognize(or I wouldn't recognize fot that matter as a contemporary working process) would immediately give greater emphasis to b.
-b What is its composition?
http://www.efunda.com/materials/allo...properties.cfm
Anything that doesn't fall into that range will set the alarm bells off, not only in archaeology; but, across all scientific disciplines. Dating that swash plate would be the first thing we would desperately attempt. And it would be only the first question we would ask. That poor archaeologist would be snowed under by the avalanch of investigators that swarmed him for information as to what he did to find the artifact, and asking him how could he be so stupid as to SCREW the dig up.

Not sure of your point, here. Everyone assumed that stories of El Dorado were fables, until air-surveys of the Amazon basin confirmed a far higher population count - complete with a massive road and canal network - than anyone previously believed....

My point is that what we regard as myth is often mis-interpreted legend.

THERA=Atlantis?

Oh, that's not true at all...The only reason the Baghdad Battery didn't get tossed in the trash at Square One was that it didn't have Duracell® printed on it; in fact, IIRC, archeologists couldn't figure out what it was -- it took an electrical engineer with an archeology hobby working in the British Museum to figure it out...They hadn't even run a simple chemical analysis on their samples, which would have revealed the acids...Also, remember the Antikthera[sp?] Mechanism - now proven to be part of the gearing of a highly advanced astrolabe[sp?], c.1800yrs old - was nearly tossed as salt.....

Those artifacts turned up and were correctly analyzed despite the long odds aginst that happening . Oddly enough the Baghdad Battery was recovered from a pottery dump, so I guess you could say it was thrown out with the trash.

As for the Antikythera Astrolabe?

http://www.math.sunysb.edu/~tony/whatsnew/column/antikytheraI-0400/kyth1.html

Surprise! It was recovered from a sunken ship!

Think of that bronze mechanical ballistic computer aboard the U.S.S. Chicago under similar conditions.

Bronze is less corrosive than steel.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/04029.htm

Now I know that steel corrodes, but there will be gun barrels and barbette housings left of the Arizona for millenia as well as for

Repulse
Prince of Wales
Hood
Bismarck
Scharnhorst
Musashi
Hiei
Kirishima
and those wrecks
Akagi
Soryu
Hiryui
Kaga
are just chock full of bronze and aluminum artifacts as well as steel ones.

Just off the top of my head there is enough sunk shipping within the last hundred years(37 million tons) to keep divers busy for that ten thousand years you extrapolate.

Any ancient civilization that leaves that kind of footprint is going to be obvious if for nothing else for all the wrecks that screw up navigation by magnetic compass.

Somebody would dive to see what was down there throwing off magnetic north!

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

Don't confuse magnetic pole transposition with new age theories. The Earth flips magnetic polarity routinely about every half million years. We see that in the polarity of magnetic ores that we find striated as a result of vulcanism.

HD physics is not new age theories. The Earth flips magnetic polarity routinely estimated every 50,000 years or so according to observations, it's been some 53,000 (hence being late). Suprirse suprise, 53,000+ years is exactly twice the prescessional(sp?) cycle of the Earth.

The tailings do not. They just distribute across the landscape as rubble. its worked rock. You can see this.

And will erode and be reused, and tugged aside and chucked when they're in the way of the next set of people. They will be covered up by new sediments; and unless you're expecting a mine 11,000 years ago, Scientists won't see it, and if they do will just ignore it, because reporting that the rest will call you stupid and goodbye reputation and job. Science these days isn't all that scientifiic, it's more religion than anything else.

Civilizations equal to ours build ships. Those sink. We'd find them. We find Roman ones, even Egyptian ones.

Oh, sure, doesn't mean that those who find them will consider them 10,000 years old, not unless some identifying markings weren't withered away that looked NOTHING like any known civilization, and even then they won't give it the proper age.

A lump of cast aviation grade aluminum that was a swash plate is as big as a man's torso and I don't need to be an aviation engineer or an industrial contractor to identify hinge points or load bearing pintles.

But archeologists wtill won't call it what it is AND date it to the right time. If an archeologist claims he found part of a plane fuselage dated 10,000 years ago, he's out of a job the next day.

http://www.geo.mtu.edu/volcanoes/world.html

Likelyy candidates;

-Western United States
-Central America
-Eastern Aegean
-Italy
-Japan
All other areas lack the resources for a civilization of the first rank and the big fat volcanoe nearby to wipe it out. No footprint of minimg riverine pollution or metal working exists that are in those areas 11,000 years before present.

Say the archeologists.

Heavy metal poisons take tens of thousands of year to leach out of mine tailings. There will be pitchblend contamination in the Nigerian and Alberta mines' tailings long after the sun bloats to red giant stage.

Doesn't mean they'll date the mine to the right time, especially not if other humans went back in there later on; also providing the civilization LEFT heavy metals. If they were advance, they may very well have found a much more efficient way to mine, removing ALL of it where they mined.

THERA, then. But TROY was real. It bis mentioned as a Hitite client state and ally.

Of course Thera and Troy were real, they just aren't Atlantis.

Why not? With a three inch(75 mm) reflector you can tell the difference between Russian and American. Alien would be alien and you would know it immediately. It would look WRONG.

Possibly. Not that any official scientists will ever acknowledge a non-human satellite in Earth orbit. An amateur reporting it, they will dismiss, and construct some stupid reason why he's so very wrong, and he couldn't possibly know it, and then point to a few things claiming that proves it's Amreican/Russion/Chinese/whatever. Of course, you, and those with their eyes and minds open will shake their head at the ridiculous claims and debunking stories (see the one up there, they'll follow the same recipe) and all those with closed minds or not quite having the knowledge and logic circuitry to see through the bullfelgercarb will nod, and say, "See, from us after all, the great oracles of science have spoken." Thus to everyone, officially, it will be whatever nationality they assigned it to, even decades down the line, unless they're lies have finally started to crack under the pressure.

You need to check your micrometeor population statistics(one collision a century by a grain of sand) and satellite orbital decay mechanics. A Geo satellite out of fuel tumbles. That is all. It doesn't spiral in. That is the point of sticking it out so far; so that it is in stable orbit whose rate of advance is synchronous with the rotation of the Earth.

And how many satellites are there clustered together again? Plus of course, an impact may have the opposite reaction: send it flying away from the Earth.

Nor would an archaeologist throw away the Baghdad battery or a helicopter swash plate.

Oh, yes, they will! If they claim they found an ancient highly advance technological piece, they will be out of a job before the week is over, possibly the next day. So unless you've got a REALLY integral one who's willing to take on the fight and lose his job and reputation over it, he/she will toss it as fast as he/she can - dismissing it as modern contamination, a helicopter crash that came deep enough. Should he/she be integral of course, the established archeology will remove her reputation, ridicule her, and any and allo of her claims will NEVER be published, unless it's in non mainstream vehicles where they have their eyes open. Of course, these non mainstream vehicles have the reputation of being run by crackpots, and any claims given there will be ignored or if it becomes well known enough, debunked - again, see the recipe above. Thus once more established science will prevail.

Cuzco, Denver.

The exception that states the rule, and it still isn't on the actual tips of the mountains.

The dinos were under the permafrost. And the civlization if it were as omnipresent as our own would leave their trash everywhere. If it is there, we will find it.

Not the kilometers thick permafrost they aren't, we never went to the bottom, we can't do it - not big enough to be able to do archeology/paleontology on the ground below. And who said the civilization was omnipresent? A closed of, paranoid culture wouldn't be omnipresent, they'd stay far away from the rest of the world.

ADDENDUM

Map debunking;
http://www.intersurf.com/~chalcedony/FOG4.html

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/P...riReis_eng.htm

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/P...Buache_eng.htm

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/P.../Atlantide.htm (You need Italian for this, sorry. D.)

Dating from antartic ice drilled cores.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html

Best wishes.

"Debunking". Yep, you think I'm going to bother with a 'debunking'? A debunking is never a serious discussion, it's just some rhetoric to dismiss something and keep the masses content in knowing scientists are great, don't make mistakes and already know everything.

And the ice cores site, all I can say is BWAHAHAHAHA! There are so many logical fallacies in that it isn't even funny. "To maintain the age for the Earth of 50,000 years." Are you kidding me? This sounds more like a creationist nutcase. "No catastrophic things happening in that time." No, of course not, that's why there were mass extinctions, and I suppose and Ice Age isn't catastrophic. :shakes head:

Originally Posted by Damocles

1. Seapower is seapower. You understand that, you go where the ocean chokepoints and the sheltered anchorages are. You dive for wrecks there as that is where the storms and naval battles sink ships.

Water level were 120 meters lower then, different climate, completely different topology. We don't know where the chokepoints were back then.

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by Damocles


Don't confuse magnetic pole transposition with new age theories. The Earth flips magnetic polarity routinely about every half million years. We see that in the polarity of magnetic ores that we find striated as a result of vulcanism.

Rebuttal;

HD physics is not new age theories. The Earth flips magnetic polarity routinely estimated every 50,000 years or so according to observations, it's been some 53,000 (hence being late). Suprirse suprise, 53,000+ years is exactly twice the prescessional(sp?) cycle of the Earth.

No correlation between precession and flipping of poles. The average is 500,000 years between flips, but the interval is variable;

http://www.psc.edu/science/Glatzmaier/glatzmaier.html


Considering that ships, planes and Boy Scouts steer by it, Earth's magnetic field is less reliable than you'd think. Rocks in an ancient lava flow in Oregon suggest that for a brief erratic span about 16 million years ago magnetic north shifted as much as 6 degrees per day. After little more than a week, a compass needle would have pointed toward Mexico City.


The lava catches Earth's magnetic field in the act of reversing itself. Magnetic north heads south, and -- over about 1,000 years -- the field does a complete flip-flop. While the Oregon data is controversial, Earth scientists agree that the geological evidence as a whole -- the "paleomagnetic" record -- proves such reversals happened many times over the past billion years.


"Some reversals occurred within a few 10,000 years of each other," says Los Alamos scientist Gary Glatzmaier, "and there are other periods where no reversals occurred for tens of millions of years." How do these flip-flops happen, and why at such irregular intervals? The geological data, invaluable to show what happened, registers only a mute shrug when it comes to the deeper questions.

Now for the mines;

Quote:by damocles


The tailings do not. They just distribute across the landscape as rubble. Its worked rock. You can see this.

Rebuttal;

And will erode and be reused, and tugged aside and chucked when they're in the way of the next set of people. They will be covered up by new sediments; and unless you're expecting a mine 11,000 years ago, Scientists won't see it, and if they do will just ignore it, because reporting that the rest will call you stupid and goodbye reputation and job. Science these days isn't all that scientifiic, it's more religion than anything else.

Some of those Spanish Jesuits who followed Cortez into Mexico noticed something. Where did the Aztecs get all their copper?

http://www.exploringthenorth.com/cop...y/cophist.html


A Short History of Copper Mining

Copper was first mined in this area by an ancient vanished race between 5,000 and 1,200 bc. These miners left no burial grounds, dwellings, pottery, clay tablets or cave drawings. What was left behind was thousands of copper producing pits and more thousands of crude hammering stones with which the pits had been worked. The ancients apparently worked the copper bearing rock by alternately using fire and cold water, to break the copper ore into smaller pieces from which they could extract the metal with hand held hammering stones or stone hatchets. With this copper, they made tools.


Scientists and engineers estimate that it would have required 10,000 men 1,000 years to develop the extensive operations carried on throughout the region. It is estimated that 1.5 billion pounds of copper were mined by these unknown people.

The pure copper of Lake Superior has been discovered in prehistoric cultures throughout North and South America.

The mystery of their origin remains unsolved. The mystery of their disappearance remains unsolved.

Mine tailings and debris plus compositional analysis of dugup artifacts led the archaeologists back to the Michigan and Wisconsin mines..

Quote:


Civilizations equal to ours build ships. Those sink. We'd find them. We find Roman ones, even Egyptian ones.

Refutation

Oh, sure, doesn't mean that those who find them will consider them 10,000 years old, not unless some identifying markings weren't withered away that looked NOTHING like any known civilization, and even then they won't give it the proper age.

Evidence for which I would look to date worked alloy.

1. Pitting
2. Corrosion
3. Wear.

Evidence to date the sunken wreck
4. Coral buidup.
5. Silting.
6. Barnacles.
7. Fish.

Quote:

A lump of cast aviation grade aluminum that was a swash plate is as big as a man's torso and I don't need to be an aviation engineer or an industrial contractor to identify hinge points or load bearing pintles.

Refutation;

But archeologists still won't call it what it is AND date it to the right time. If an archeologist claims he found part of a plane fuselage dated 10,000 years ago, he's out of a job the next day.

I don't expect the archaeologist to know what it is, but if he finds a swash plate buried with King Lugalzagesi of Umma , the first king to unite ancient Sumeria, he's going to be looking at this:



Now he will have to know that it is part of a modified clutch plate system of some version; if he ever worked on a car or reciprocating engine of any type.


-------------------End of Part 1

[Damocles]

Now for sites that could harbor a civilization;

Quote:


http://www.geo.mtu.edu/volcanoes/world.html

Likelyy candidates;

-Western United States
-Central America
-Eastern Aegean
-Italy
-Japan
All other areas lack the resources for a civilization of the first rank and the big fat volcanoe nearby to wipe it out. No footprint of minimg riverine pollution or metal working exists that are in those areas 11,000 years before present.

Refutation;

Say the archeologists.

There is a problem. Again the archaeologists may be ignorant, but geologists minerologists, minimg engineers, and average contractors(me)? We are not

http://speclab.cr.usgs.gov/maps.html.


Materials Maps


http://speclab.cr.usgs.gov


One of the end products of the Spectroscopy Lab's research is materials maps. The new field of imaging spectroscopy allows specific absorption features, caused by chemical bonds in materials, to be mapped spatially. Materials maps are of minerals, mineral mixtures, vegetation (including species/communities and vegetation communities maps), water, ice and snow, atmospheric gases, environmental materials, and man-made materials.

You can use those survey maps and other means to plot resource availability and using our civilization as a benchmark you can make a one magnitude of error guess as to the evidence that a past civilization will leave behind in their mining efforts. That raw ore gets worked at the mine as much as you can(to save transportation costs in moving unneeded rock) so you would expect local smelting and grinding of extracted mine material to get at the desired ore.


Now about those mine tailings?

Quote:


Heavy metal poisons take tens of thousands of year to leach out of mine tailings. There will be pitchblend contamination in the Nigerian and Alberta mines' tailings long after the sun bloats to red giant stage.

Refutartion;

Doesn't mean they'll date the mine to the right time, especially not if other humans went back in there later on; also providing the civilization LEFT heavy metals. If they were advanced, they may very well have found a much more efficient way to mine, removing ALL of it where they mined.

(See above about the tailings; i.e. the Michigan copper mines-5000 years active?)


Dating the mine is based on guess work if you have incompetents examining the tailings. But if you examine the worked metal for wear use and use isotope dating to date the forging? Metallurgists are very good at doing this.


Now about the legends;

Quote:


THERA, then. But TROY was real. It bis mentioned as a Hitite client state and ally.

Refutation;

Of course Thera and Troy were real, they just aren't Atlantis

Maybe;

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/str...era/thera.html


Summary; it describes the event creditted with the downfall of Minoan civilization(Crete). That would be a fair legendary beginning.for the Atlantis myth.

Satellites;

Quote:


Why not? With a three inch(75 mm) reflector you can tell the difference between Russian and American. Alien would be alien and you would know it immediately. It would look WRONG.

Refutation;

Possibly. Not that any official scientists will ever acknowledge a non-human satellite in Earth orbit. An amateur reporting it, they will dismiss, and construct some stupid reason why he's so very wrong, and he couldn't possibly know it, and then point to a few things claiming that proves it's Amreican/Russion/Chinese/whatever. Of course, you, and those with their eyes and minds open will shake their head at the ridiculous claims and debunking stories (see the one up there, they'll follow the same recipe) and all those with closed minds or not quite having the knowledge and logic circuitry to see through the bullfelgercarb will nod, and say, "See, from us after all, the great oracles of science have spoken." Thus to everyone, officially, it will be whatever nationality they assigned it to, even decades down the line, unless they're lies have finally started to crack under the pressure.

You cannot hide this stuff. A guy who works in a machine shop who models spacecraft on the side will notice gross predelictions used by Russians (spherical shapes and cubes) and Americans;(rectangles and cylinders, with your occasional cone and a style I can best describe as a tinker toy approach.). Chinese follow the Russian tradition, while those who studied the American school tend to build to the American pattern(ESA).

More on satellites;

Quote:


You need to check your micrometeor population statistics(one collision a century by a grain of sand) and satellite orbital decay mechanics. A Geo satellite out of fuel tumbles. That is all. It doesn't spiral in. That is the point of sticking it out so far; so that it is in stable orbit whose rate of advance is synchronous with the rotation of the Earth.

Refutation;

And how many satellites are there clustered together again? Plus of course, an impact may have the opposite reaction: send it flying away from the Earth.

The actual number of satellites is less thaqn ten thousand;

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2004/...ikshteyn.shtml

I would also point out to you that a micro-meteorite impact on a satellite will either pierce it like a bullet or crater the satellite if it doesn't penetrate or shatter the satellite into fragments. It will not affect the orbit much even if the satellite is a debris field after impact. It, the satellite doesn't fall in It alters its orbital path (slightly) somewhat. The kinetic energy of mass isn't there to cause an infall(1 kg at 60,000 mps to deplace a solid 250 kg object to a new orbit) No infalling 1 kg object from the Oort cloud picks up enough potential energy from solar infall to attain that velocity.


Now about the Baghdad Battery

Quote:

Nor would an archaeologist throw away the Baghdad battery or a helicopter swash plate.

Refutation;

Oh, yes, they will! If they claim they found an ancient highly advance technological piece, they will be out of a job before the week is over, possibly the next day. So unless you've got a REALLY integral one who's willing to take on the fight and lose his job and reputation over it, he/she will toss it as fast as he/she can - dismissing it as modern contamination, a helicopter crash that came deep enough. Should he/she be integral of course, the established archeology will remove her reputation, ridicule her, and any and allo of her claims will NEVER be published, unless it's in non mainstream vehicles where they have their eyes open. Of course, these non mainstream vehicles have the reputation of being run by crackpots, and any claims given there will be ignored or if it becomes well known enough, debunked - again, see the recipe above. Thus once more established science will prevail.

All I can say is that reputable archaeologists by that logic should have refuted the notion that the Aztecs and the Incas were on the verge of becoming bronze age cultures or that North American native peoples used copper knives, needles, arrow tips, jewelry, and spear tips.(See above; what did they do with 1.5 million tons of mined ore?)
------------------------------------End of Part 2

[Damocles]

High altitude cities;

Quote:


Cuzco, Denver.

Refutation;

The exception that states the rule, and it still isn't on the actual tips of the mountains.

Humans build cities on ledges and plateaus. If I'm looking for fortresses and looking for our equals, then I am looking for missile silos. Only primitives build prominent gunfire targets(castles) on top of hills.


Now for trash in Antartica;

Quote:


The dinos were under the permafrost. And the civlization if it were as omnipresent as our own would leave their trash everywhere. If it is there, we will find it.

Refutation;

Not the kilometers thick permafrost they aren't, we never went to the bottom, we can't do it - not big enough to be able to do archeology/paleontology on the ground below. And who said the civilization was omnipresent? A closed of, paranoid culture wouldn't be omnipresent, they'd stay far away from the rest of the world.

Okay?


If they build helicopters they will need; iron, aluminum , chromium , manganese, zinc, manganese, magnesium, etc.


Go here to see where you dig this stuff up;


http://www.faqs.org/docs/factbook/fields/2111.html


You will not find everything you need in an Egypt sized area ANYWHERE on Earth.



Now for debunking;


Quote:


ADDENDUM

Map debunking;
http://www.intersurf.com/~chalcedony/FOG4.html

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/...iriReis_eng.htm

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/.../Buache_eng.htm

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/...s/Atlantide.htm (You need Italian for this, sorry. D.)

Dating from antartic ice drilled cores.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html

Refutation;

"Debunking". Yep, you think I'm going to bother with a 'debunking'? A debunking is never a serious discussion, it's just some rhetoric to dismiss something and keep the masses content in knowing scientists are great, don't make mistakes and already know everything.

And the ice cores site, all I can say is BWAHAHAHAHA! There are so many logical fallacies in that it isn't even funny. "To maintain the age for the Earth of 50,000 years." Are you kidding me? This sounds more like a creationist nutcase. "No catastrophic things happening in that time." No, of course not, that's why there were mass extinctions, and I suppose and Ice Age isn't catastrophic. :shakes head:

No vulcanism and no meteor impact of a Yellowstone/K-T event magnitude in the last fifty thousand years is fair enough.. Ice core gas analysis is quite a valid measurement as is the seep content analysis. What problem do youy have with this? Also where do you get 50,000 years before present? My reading was a minimum of 150,000 years ice deposition for the Vostok core.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html


Minimum Age of the Earth


From the data gathered from the Vostok ice-core indicates that the minimum age of the earth is 160,000 +- 15,000 years. Furthermore there exists approximately 33% of additional ice below the core sample which would hold a disproportionate number of years due to thinning of the ice layers under the tremendous pressure of the ice above it.


To maintain an age for the earth of 50,000 years, one would need to describe a mechanism that allows more than 2 false ice layers to form per year. It should be noted that one also needs to describe why this mechanism has ceased to function in historic times since the Vostok ice-core demonstrates a number of the historically recorded volcanism at the correct periods of time.


ADDITION: "To the list of things excluded, you can add miles-high tides or floods. (Velikovsky and the Noachian deluge). Such a mass of water would have provided sufficient buoyancy to float the polar caps off their beds. No way to drop them exactly back onto their original location, or to regrow them. (In fact, the Greenland ice cap would not regrow under modern (last 10 ky) climatic conditions.)" --Bob Grumbine rmg3@psuvm.psu.edu


Worlds in Collision


The Vostok ice-core shows no effects of catastrophic geological changes. By this I mean no petroleum, no vermin, no weird Venus gasses, no red snow, no manna in amongst the layers. Also no evidence for rapid rotational changes in the earth, no floods, no major asteroid bombardments. Finally, there is absolutely positively fur-darn-tootin no evidence of the earth ever having occupied any position in the solar system other than that which it holds now.

That was in direct refutation of the Veliskovsky displaced Earth orbit hypothesis.


http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/lin..._era/veli.html


Now about hunting sunken ships;

Quote:


Originally Posted by Damocles


1. Seapower is seapower. You understand that, you go where the ocean chokepoints and the sheltered anchorages are. You dive for wrecks there as that is where the storms and naval battles sink ships.

Refutation;

Water level were 120 meters lower then, different climate, completely different topology. We don't know where the chokepoints were back then.

Ahem;





Geography doesn't change that much in ten thousand years nor do Ocean levels (125 meters higher after the last ice age melt.) do not significantly affect the straits of Gibraltar or the Straits of Hormuz. A planet locked in an ice age has humongous hurricanes.(Heat differentials is quite pronounced between equator and poles- perfect condition for giant coriolis storms.Anybody stupid enough to sail those oceans outside the temperate zones is asking to be sunk. Likely wreck sites;


-Western Indian ocean


-Eastern North America Atlantic including the Hatteras Capes to Newfoundland coasts.


-Carribean


-Mediterranean basin


-Western Pacific including the Japanese and Philipine Island groups.


Follow the currents and the winds, Where they swirl and where the coastal inlets provide shelter you find ships. That is applied seapower. Where the sailors wrecked on the rocks or fought that is mis-applied seapower, and we know where to look for this .


Best wishes;

Only one thing can be for certain. No Cylons were raped in the building of the Pyramids.

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

Rebuttal;
No correlation between precession and flipping of poles. The average is 500,000 years between flips, but the interval is variable;

According to 'established' science. You don't actually think I accept much if anything at all from those hacks and outright fraudeurs and priests, do you? And the average is 50,000 years, which is one of the very few things that does come from the lot of them.

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

According to 'established' science. You don't actually think I accept much if anything at all from those hacks and outright fraudeurs and priests, do you? And the average is 50,000 years, which is one of the very few things that does come from the lot of them.

Huh?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...hmagfield.html

According to Earth's geologic record, our planet's magnetic field flips, on average, about once every 200,000 years. The time between reversals varies widely, however. The last time Earth's magnetic field flipped was about 780,000 years ago.


"We hear the magnetic field today looks like it is decreasing and might reverse. What we don't hear is it is on a time scale of thousands of years," Glatzmaier said. "It's nothing we'll experience in our lifetime."

But several generations from now, humans just may witness a reversal. By then, Glatzmaier said, scientists will better understand the process and be prepared to cope with the effects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_magnetic_field

Magnetic field reversals
Main article: geomagnetic reversal
The Earth's magnetic field reverses at intervals, ranging from tens of thousands to many millions of years, with an average interval of approximately 250,000 years. It is believed that this last occurred some 780,000 years ago, referred to as the Brunhes-Matuyama reversal.

The mechanism responsible for geomagnetic reversals is not well understood. Some scientists have produced models for the core of the Earth wherein the magnetic field is only quasi-stable and the poles can spontaneously migrate from one orientation to the other over the course of a few hundred to a few thousand years. Other scientists propose that the geodynamo first turns itself off, either spontaneously or through some external action like a comet impact, and then restarts itself with the "North" pole pointing either North or South. When the "North" reappears in the opposite direction, we would interpret this as a reversal, whereas turning off and returning in the same direction is called a geomagnetic excursion.

At present, the overall geomagnetic field is becoming weaker at a rate which would, if it continues, cause the field to disappear, albeit temporarily, by about 3000-4000 AD. The rapid deterioration began at least 150 years ago and has accelerated in the past several years, with a total decrease of 10-15% over these 150 years. This change is within the normal range of variation, as shown by study of magnetic fields in rocks, and need not necessarily lead to a reversal

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2...neticfield.htm

Sometimes the field completely flips. The north and the south poles swap places. Such reversals, recorded in the magnetism of ancient rocks, are unpredictable. They come at irregular intervals averaging about 300,000 years; the last one was 780,000 years ago. Are we overdue for another? No one knows.

Now how was this record determined?

http://pubs.usgs.gov/publications/text/developing.html

Magnetic striping and polar reversals
Beginning in the 1950s, scientists, using magnetic instruments (magnetometers) adapted from airborne devices developed during World War II to detect submarines, began recognizing odd magnetic variations across the ocean floor. This finding, though unexpected, was not entirely surprising because it was known that basalt -- the iron-rich, volcanic rock making up the ocean floor-- contains a strongly magnetic mineral (magnetite) and can locally distort compass readings. This distortion was recognized by Icelandic mariners as early as the late 18th century. More important, because the presence of magnetite gives the basalt measurable magnetic properties, these newly discovered magnetic variations provided another means to study the deep ocean floor.

A theoretical model of the formation of magnetic striping. New oceanic crust forming continuously at the crest of the mid-ocean ridge cools and becomes increasingly older as it moves away from the ridge crest with seafloor spreading (see text): a. the spreading ridge about 5 million years ago; b. about 2 to 3 million years ago; and c. present-day.
Early in the 20th century, paleomagnetists (those who study the Earth's ancient magnetic field) -- such as Bernard Brunhes in France (in 1906) and Motonari Matuyama in Japan (in the 1920s) -- recognized that rocks generally belong to two groups according to their magnetic properties. One group has so-called normal polarity, characterized by the magnetic minerals in the rock having the same polarity as that of the Earth's present magnetic field. This would result in the north end of the rock's "compass needle" pointing toward magnetic north. The other group, however, has reversed polarity, indicated by a polarity alignment opposite to that of the Earth's present magnetic field. In this case, the north end of the rock's compass needle would point south. How could this be? This answer lies in the magnetite in volcanic rock. Grains of magnetite -- behaving like little magnets -- can align themselves with the orientation of the Earth's magnetic field. When magma (molten rock containing minerals and gases) cools to form solid volcanic rock, the alignment of the magnetite grains is "locked in," recording the Earth's magnetic orientation or polarity (normal or reversed) at the time of cooling.

Magnetic striping in the Pacific Northwest [70 k]
As more and more of the seafloor was mapped during the 1950s, the magnetic variations turned out not to be random or isolated occurrences, but instead revealed recognizable patterns. When these magnetic patterns were mapped over a wide region, the ocean floor showed a zebra-like pattern. Alternating stripes of magnetically different rock were laid out in rows on either side of the mid-ocean ridge: one stripe with normal polarity and the adjoining stripe with reversed polarity. The overall pattern, defined by these alternating bands of normally and reversely polarized rock, became known as magnetic striping.

And just for fun.........(Read on, you are going to love this! D.)

End of Part 1

[Damocles]

And just for fun; because when you do this stuff; you learn SOMETHING NEW everyday!

http://www.prehistoricplanet.com/fea.../2003/0122.htm



Microraptor gui:
The Four-Winged Dinosaur

by Dave Board

9/21 With every newly discovered feathered dinosaur fossil, paleontologists are revealing the apparent dearth of superlatives in the English language. So maybe it's surprising that the latest "greatest" is called Microraptor: a name befitting the size—but not the importance—of this wonderful animal.

I should start this article by saying Microraptor is real. A real fossil dinosaur with real fossil flight feathers—on all four limbs. Dinosaurs with feathers on their bodies have now been found by the dozens. The first came in the 90's, and their arrival was welcomed as a prediction confirmed. Scientists had long theorized (since Darwin's time, in fact) that birds were related to reptiles. More and more, the comparison of dinosaur and bird skeletons revealed similarities. But theories are made to be broken, and paleontologists breathed a sigh of relief only when rare well-preserved dinosaur skeletons with fossil feathers began to turn up in China's Gobi desert.

So dinosaurs and birds had more than skeletal similarities in common: they both had feathers. What makes Microraptor so special, of course, is that the feathers on it's hind limbs—like those on it's arms and the arms of other feathered dinosaurs—are true flight feathers. Asymmetrical feathers provide the kind of aerodynamic form that airplanes employ to provide lift. In previous feathered dinosaurs, only downy, symmetrical feathers had been associated with hind limbs.

This is not to say Microraptor gui was a super-flyer. In fact, it's hard to imagine the little dinosaur was capable of flapping all four limbs. Likely, it glided between trees and tree limbs. Which leads to a significant proposal. While a popular theory of dinosaur scientists says true flight evolved from the ground up, maybe arboreal dinosaurs were in fact the pioneers of life in the skies. Microraptor's leg feathers would have dragged clumsily along if it spent time on the ground, and the previously mentioned problem of four flapping wings suggests the innovative creature spent most of it's time among the branches.

Maybe the argument that feathers evolved for the good of tree-dwelling dinosaurs has finally triumphed in Microraptor.

Or maybe not. A recent study of living birds stokes the fires of debate anew: ornithologists report the observation that some species of ground birds flail their wings furiously to assist in running up steep slopes. This flapping motion, it was discovered, does not provide vertical thrust but instead acts like a spoiler on a race car to press the birds' bodies to the surface they are trying to scale. The authors suggest feathers and wings might have first evolved to help young dinosaurs in a similar fashion.

Insulation from the cold, assistance in climbing tree trunks, gliding through the tree tops, and soaring across the sky: maybe it was for a mix of some or all of these functions that feathers evolved on bipedal dinosaurs. One thing is certain: Microraptor is the poster child of ingeniously configured dinosaurs.



The scientific description of Microraptor was published in the science journal Nature.

I bumped into that little fellow when I GOOGLED dynamo theory.

A biplane dinosaur?!?!

Mister Rocket J. Squirrel was beaten to the punch by Mister Microraptor Gui(pronounced GWEE)by about 130 million years.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...3B809EC588EEDF

The remains, which date to roughly 130 million years ago, include a new species of dinosaur dubbed Microraptor gui (above). A member of the dromeosaurid family of dinosaurs--the group to which birds are thought to be most closely related--the diminutive Microraptor gui apparently bears a striking resemblance to a creature whose existence was predicted nearly 90 years ago. American naturalist William Beebe proposed in 1915 that the earliest bird was a four-winged glider, or tetrapteryx. Microraptor gui, notes University of Kansas paleontologist Richard O. Prum in a commentary accompanying the report, "looks as if it could have glided straight out the pages of Beebe's notebooks."

A biplane dino-flyer? Who would expect this?


Just goes to show that those who hope that life here began out there, have grounds for reasonable speculation. As long as we keep digging, I expect the surprises to keep coming.

Best wishes.

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by Micheleh

Interesting theory. I'm working on a story with a similar premise- of an ancient advanced civilization on earth, capable of spaceflight, catastrophically wiped out to leave only enigmatic traces of inexplicable technology.

"There have even been recent geologial findings that suggest the Sphinx of the Giza plateau is at least 10,000 years old, 4000 years older that the known beginnings of human civilzation according to orthodox science."

I believe that this is good proof toward the theory that civilization goes back far longer than people think.

Yes. We are, slowly, climbing back up to where our distant ancesters once were. What is remembered on Earth as "the Flood" was the obliteration of the super-civilization that went before.

[Punisher454]

In the Sumerian writings there is a story of many tribes of man being called together to board a vessel made of metal which ascended into the heavens. This predates the writings of the Hebrews by at least a couple of thousand years.
Seems like a pretty wild idea for a supposedly primitive ancient people, unless they had something to base that on.

[Senmut]

EX-actly!!!


P.S. Who or what do you punish, Punisher?

[Punisher454]

I punish the guilty.

[Senmut]

Ah!

[BST]

Originally Posted by Senmut

Ah!

You guilty?

[Senmut]

Of many things, I'm sure.

[Punisher454]

For Senmut;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6je37OVNeIk
couldnt resist