Religion and the new BSG

I think this Baltar had a firm belief in God.

After all, he kept uttering it over and over when he was with Six.



Ahem. Sorry. Couldnt resist.

After reading through here I think we see the genius of TOS. To one inclined to religious faith we see a very religious show. To those disinclined to faith we see a show in which all religion is explained in a secular manner. The show appeals to both audiences and unless you are on a Battlestar board you wouldn't even see it from the other side.

[Eric Paddon]

Except that in the final analysis, the intent of the creators of the series and their mindset should offer the final word on the subject, and in the case of TOS, that puts it squarely on the side of a pro-religion mindset.

Gene Roddenberry's secularism forces me to view Star Trek in no other context, no matter what occasional concessions I see in certain episodes to those of traditional faith (which I suspect were more the product of network censors telling him to watch his step), and I think the same standard needs to be applied to Galactica.

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by 137th Gebirg

Anyone?

C'mon! I know some people have thought about this...

If he does, he'll screw it up, just like he did the rest.

[Ioraptor]

So what Eric is saying is that the creators of BSG were sneaky.

[Eric Paddon]

Hardly. I think it was done in a rather obvious way.

[jewels]

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr Syn

I think this Baltar had a firm belief in God.

After all, he kept uttering it over and over when he was with Six.



Ahem. Sorry. Couldnt resist.

Eeeeeeeewwww. icky!!!! gross out. That was just crass after all the heady discussion above it!

Eeeeewwww!

Jewels, who needs no reminders of the extraneous sex the new show is peppered with. Yetched.

:laugh: I just had to acknowledge that you got me. :laugh:

[jewels]

Eric, good points on faith examples in TOS, especially your general overview. Someone was watching out for the Colonials, someone who planned for them to make their way to earth.

It's the "there will always be a remnant" thing you see in OT prophets especially.

I think Mormonism was a clever, convenient way to tie in to an earth-like religion yet have it be other-worldly. Mormonism has enough in common with mainstream Christianity to feel familiar but with enough idiosychracies/things taught in only it to give that "you are dealing with another time, place and culture than earth" context. So no ones toes were deliberately stepped on. And there was a hint at the faith Adama & Tigh knew, not being the sole faith in the culturally diverse colonies. (refer to the Ootori of the Gemons in Saga, and possibly the Borellian Nomen for some diversity).

[Ioraptor]

If you Google 'Mormon' and 'Battlestar Galactica' you get some interesting returns.
I would have to say that a strong case is made for describing TOS as a vehicle for Mormon faith and ideology.
Not a bad thing or a good thing in my book, just what it is.



http://www.michaellorenzen.com/galactica.html

http://www.proaxis.com/~sherlockfam/art5.html

http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com/...ca/primer2.htm

[Ioraptor]

Oooops! Just re-read the title of this thread and its 'Religion and the New BSG'.
Sorry, I'm terrible about getting off topic.

Hmmm.
Its definitely a different take in nuGalactica.
The Colonials have a faith where they invoke 'Lords' and also a singular 'God'.
They involve religion in the political process; Rosyln asks for a priest to administer the oath of office. Blurring the line between church and state.
Hard to say where the writers are going with it yet, its just to early to know.
What’s interesting is the historical information one gleans from the statements of Adama when he inquires of the priestess Elosha about the 'ancient scrolls'.
That all the Colonials have from the founding days are religious scrolls implies that they lost their technology early on.
I have a feeling the Colonials are going to find their faith tested in many ways, both factual and philosophical.

As for the Cylons?
#6 mentions faith to Baltar and implies that she has been instructed by God.
She has an elaborate belief system that justifies the destruction of humanity.
What is the source of this belief system?
Perhaps there is a 'true leader' of the Cylons in the shadows, claiming to be god ?
Perhaps the Cylons have interpreted the laws of nature, physics, and the Thermodynamic arrow in some fashion that seems like "the word of god" to them.
Perhaps it’s the remnants of a software command directive that the Cylons have interpreted as the 'word of god'?

Its not cut and dried like TOS and thats entertaining to me. I find enjoyment in solving these kinds of riddles and the writers certainly have succeeded in hooking my interest.

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by Ioraptor

Oooops! Just re-read the title of this thread and its 'Religion and the New BSG'.
Sorry, I'm terrible about getting off topic.

Hmmm.
Its definitely a different take in nuGalactica.
The Colonials have a faith where they invoke 'Lords' and also a singular 'God'.
They involve religion in the political process; Rosyln asks for a priest to administer the oath of office. Blurring the line between church and state.
Hard to say where the writers are going with it yet, its just to early to know.
What’s interesting is the historical information one gleans from the statements of Adama when he inquires of the priestess Elosha about the 'ancient scrolls'.
That all the Colonials have from the founding days are religious scrolls implies that they lost their technology early on.
I have a feeling the Colonials are going to find their faith tested in many ways, both factual and philosophical.

As for the Cylons?
#6 mentions faith to Baltar and implies that she has been instructed by God.
She has an elaborate belief system that justifies the destruction of humanity.
What is the source of this belief system?
Perhaps there is a 'true leader' of the Cylons in the shadows, claiming to be god ?
Perhaps the Cylons have interpreted the laws of nature, physics, and the Thermodynamic arrow in some fashion that seems like "the word of god" to them.
Perhaps it’s the remnants of a software command directive that the Cylons have interpreted as the 'word of god'?

Its not cut and dried like TOS and thats entertaining to me. I find enjoyment in solving these kinds of riddles and the writers certainly have succeeded in hooking my interest.

Well stated, Ioraptor!

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[BST]

Going through some of my paperbacks, today, I found this interesting little morsel.

It was in the "Battlestar Galactica" (Saga) paperback novelization, by Glen Larson and Robert Thurston, pp 84-85. I'll just transcribe some lines of dialogue:

(Adama) " I think there is a real world called Earth and that it is out there and will welcome us," he said finally. "I believe it is there."

"Belief is a word associated more strongly with hope than fact," Serina said, adding a belated "Sir."

"Belief, hope," Adama said, " they're all we have, all we've ever had."

"Forgive my scepticism (sic), Commander Adama, but you're asking us to join you on a religious quest."

"Perhaps."

"You can't just go off on a religious quest when we --"

"I can," Adama said, "and I will."

He made a long survey of their puzzled faces.

"And you'll go."

When he saw that Serina was about to protest again, he said softly:

"There's no other choice."

Originally Posted by BST

Going through some of my paperbacks, today, I found this interesting little morsel.

It was in the "Battlestar Galactica" (Saga) paperback novelization, by Glen Larson and Robert Thurston, pp 84-85. I'll just transcribe some lines of dialogue:

Your quotes from the book were very interesting. In a way it appears that the difference between TOS and mini Adama on the issue of Earth may not be as far apart as some say. Does TOS Adama really believe Earth is out there or does he just hope Earth is out there?

Does Adama reflect the religious views of society? It would look like he doesn't.

Moore borrows a lot more from TOS and related TOS material than many want to admit. Don't beat me. It's just the way I see it.

[BST]

Antelope,

I don't know if I'd base the entire society's "take" on Earth, from Serina's skepticism. While in Saga, it was not revealed that many, if any, other than the Quorum (and that was not even directly stated), believed in or knew of a 13th tribe. It was only during Adama's speech about their quest, that the reference to the 13th tribe and Earth was mentioned.

Later, as we found out, in LPOTG, the hieroglyphics in the temple confirmed that the 13th tribe DID exist and told of their exodus from Kobol.

-more later-

I think we see in TOS and it appears the new series the same full range of religious belief we see in society. The Book of the Word and our bible are either considered literary truths from God, stories based on fact, or primarily myths depending on your take. TOS Adama is obviously a religious man but he also is one using his best science to help fill in the missing pieces. Mini Adama may or may not be religious but he does know that many will accept the existence of Earth as real. In times of crisis people will listen to the "word of God" if it gives them hope. Eveyone finds religion on the battlefield.

At this point in the new series I think Adama is a skeptic but one who understands the culture he comes from and has an open mind. I am willing to bet he will start seeing signs of Earth as the show progresses. Maybe we will get such a revelation in the final episodes of the season, "Kobol's Last Gleaming"(Lost Planet of the Gods?).

TOS Adama believed in the existence of Earth. It was part of his religion but is was part of his history. He is like a navigator during the days of exploration who tried to read the writings of previous navigators. Myth often held a grain of truth.

The overall themes are very similar. In a way its like reading about different characters but set in the same setting. We get a different perspective but on the same theme.

[Eric Paddon]

"Moore borrows a lot more from TOS and related TOS material than many want to admit."

Sorry Antelope, but repeating an inaccurate premise over and over will still leave you with an inaccurate premise. Moore's ignorance of TOS prior to its airing is already well-documented, and that's the area you've never addressed to my satisfaction.

Also, regarding Serina's comments in the novelization, those are not the sentiments of the character in the actual episode. I refer to the conversation she and Apollo have outside the tomb in Part 2 where she in fact reveals herself to be a person of deep faith (yet another among many reasons why I don't find the novelizations satisfactory at all).

[Senmut]

Yes. Serina comes across quite clearly as someone who believes the faith of her people. She is certainly more the beliver than Apollo at the point whre they land on Kobol. Another bit Moore seems to have utterly missed on purpose. One wonders if he hates the religious aspects of TOS as much as the rest of it?

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

"Moore borrows a lot more from TOS and related TOS material than many want to admit."

Sorry Antelope, but repeating an inaccurate premise over and over will still leave you with an inaccurate premise. Moore's ignorance of TOS prior to its airing is already well-documented, and that's the area you've never addressed to my satisfaction.

Also, regarding Serina's comments in the novelization, those are not the sentiments of the character in the actual episode. I refer to the conversation she and Apollo have outside the tomb in Part 2 where she in fact reveals herself to be a person of deep faith (yet another among many reasons why I don't find the novelizations satisfactory at all).

In many cases this is attributable to what (leaving the new Battlestar Galactica out of this) many perceive as canon.

In the case of Star Trek..it is pretty much POLICY that the only things that are regarded as canon are that which appears on film, or in live action televised form.

In the case, of Galactica, it is more of a personal perception. Many people regard what happened in the actual shows of Galactica as canon...and disregard what the novels said. This is a personal choice.

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[Eric Paddon]

I think in the case of TOS, perception of what is and is not "canon" ultimately has to go to what we saw on film, because we have to remember that except for the first two, all of the novelizations were done after the series went off the air as I recall, and thus long after what was on film went over the airwaves.

A person can have deep religious faith and still not believe in the literal words of the religious book of their chosen faith. Serina could be both deeply religious and believe that Earth was a myth until evidence appears to convience her otherwise.

It would appear in both TOS and the Moore version we have individuals that run the full range of faith. In TOS Adama and Baltar represent the two extremes. Baltar actually scoffs at some of the religious ideas of Adama. I also had the idea that Adama was more motivated in his belief in the historical reality of the Book of the Word then he was motivated by their spiritual significance. Even when dealing with Count Iblis, Adama treated him more as simply a powerful being with limitations then as the devil in our faith systems.

On the Moore unfamilarity with TOS: This is a battle I can never win primarily because those who look at this on both sides see what they want to see. Both sides take a sentence here and a sentence there to show he either does or does not have much knowledge of TOS. I would assume that if anyone was a professional and was remaking a series you would get intimate knowledge of the source material. I believe from various Moore statements that is exactly what Moore did. In addition if you look at the mini you will see that Moore intentionally make things in a manner to create a specific story arc. As such Moore had mapped in at least his mind where the story was going this upcoming season before the mini was ever completed. Now that word is leaking out on the upcoming episodes we are already getting word about plot similarities between Moore's episodes and the more popular TOS episodes (Kobol's Last Gleeming-Lost Planet of the Gods/Living Legend?) . We even see some of the less popular subplots also in use (Bastille Day-Take the Celestra and Gun on Ice Planet Zero?). He also brought in the human-cylons from Galactica 1980 from the start of the mini. Some other TOS themes that I believe were laid down in the mini we will have to wait and see if they appear (best example is Starbuck/Cassie/Athena love triangle possibly being done in the new series as a Tyrol/Callie/Boomer lover triangle). It's funny how in one post you can read people say Moore knows nothing about TOS and then a few post later see people complain about how it appears Moore is copying TOS.

I am with Martok on the canon issues. Since the mini at this point is not linked to TOS it makes its own canon. In TOS we have a few minor changes and canon disputes depending on whether you say Saga of A Star World is a stand alone movie or whether part of the series (Was Baltar executed or not). You also have the issue of BG1980. I see a lot who reject all BG1980 but I also see many who believe that somehow "Return of Starbuck" is canon. I read some prequel stuff that to me changes the nature of my perception of "Saga of A Star World" but is it real or not is in the readers mind.

Opinions are often unique to an individual. As such we are all right in our version of reality. I thank you for sharing your perceptions. In the case of Eric I usually disagree but I often learn something anyway from your detailed knowledge of the show.

[BST]

Originally Posted by antelope526

On the Moore unfamilarity with TOS:

This is a battle I can never win primarily because those who look at this on both sides see what they want to see. Both sides take a sentence here and a sentence there to show he either does or does not have much knowledge of TOS.

Why do you consider this a battle, in the first place? What you are failing to recognize is that we are NOT "taking a sentence here and a sentence there". We are basing our responses on what Ron Moore SAID, in an interview conducted by the Cylon Alliance, in (I believe) May,2003. For the record, he said that in preparation for the mini-series, he only viewed the 3-hour premiere episode. He remarked, when questioned about his "preparation" and that of Tom DeSanto, that since he was only doing, at that time, a re-imagining of the premiere ep, he didn't need to be as familiar with the entire series. Whether he viewed the entire series, at a later date, is immaterial. The question was Moore's familiarity with TOS, at the time that he wrote the Mini-series. That question, he answered, himself.

Originally Posted by antelope526

I would assume that if anyone was a professional and was remaking a series you would get intimate knowledge of the source material. I believe from various Moore statements that is exactly what Moore did.

Please refer to the above response.

Originally Posted by antelope526

In addition in you look at the mini you will see that Moore intentionally make things in a manner to create a specific story arc.

Naturally, he was re-inventing the genre, remember?

Originally Posted by antelope526

As such Moore had mapped in at least his mind where the story was going this upcoming season before the mini was ever completed.

Quite probably. That doesn't mean that he would cull elements from TOS. His own story, going forward from the events of the Mini-Series, may have nothing to do with being parallel, in some respects, to TOS

"Battle" was a metaphor. I could have said discussion, argument, or point. Nothing meant beyond that. I do see how others see it from a different perspective. I am also open to my being wrong on this.

I read the same interviews. I also read ones that said he had seen ALL episodes before and that he was going to REWATCH certain specific ones especially relating to the beings of light and the Pegasus because those particular ones really interested him.

I also see in his interviews an apparent intentional coyness so as not to give away his plots before they are aired. As such he does not want the viewer to see the mine he is digging. He is coy about TOS the same way he was with "In Harm's Way". I am sure he uses a wide variety of source material little of which he is going to advertise.

Whether he has been familar with TOS from the start as I believe or is familar with TOS now which even many purist now say the results in his scripts will probably reflect some of that knowledge. Since most of us think TOS was great, any influence from TOS either intentional or otherwise is a positive thing for the new series.

I continue to think Moore is a lot truer to the spirit of Battlestar Galactica as envisioned by Larson but never allowed to air then most fans are comfortable with. As such Moore is either well versed in TOS and its behind the scenes history, or TOS themes and plots are not that unique and Moore is hitting them by luck.

I'm a fan of Smallville. It is definitely sexed up, modernized and reimagined but you still see the original story in it. A Superman purist should hate it. I think the difference between TOS and Moore's vision is about on the same level.

[Eric Paddon]

"On the Moore unfamilarity with TOS: This is a battle I can never win primarily because those who look at this on both sides see what they want to see."

Antelope, this is not true. We have simply taken Ron Moore at his word when he said time and again that his viewing experience of TOS since 1979 was one and a half episdoes in the time leading up to when the miniseries aired. That means he did NOT go back to the original series for inspiration in any way. You can make a subjective argument that the miniseries isn't as anti-religious as people like me think, but what you can not do is twist the objective factual record into something that suits your agenda, because a square peg will not fit in a round hole no matter how much you try to argue the point.

[Eric Paddon]

"A person can have deep religious faith and still not believe in the literal words of the religious book of their chosen faith. Serina could be both deeply religious and believe that Earth was a myth until evidence appears to convience her otherwise."

What evidence in TOS is there that *anyone* thought Earth was a myth? (other than Baltar) If Serina didn't believe it, she sure as heck was being rather tight-lipped about it all throughout Saga and LPOTG. In fact, she was going to rather great lengths to encourage Adama, and her whole conversation with Apollo where her faith becomes apparent has to do with her belief in Divine Providence leading Adama to find Kobol for a reason.

[Ioraptor]

After watching TOS and the Mini several times recently I have come to the conclusion that Mr Moore indeed has a very good understanding of Battlestar Galactica, but not understanding defined as 'canon' knowledge.
Rather I feel he has a deep understanding of the character roles and underlying themes. His is a writers perspective, not a fans. Or rather, he is a fan of the writing ideas present in TOS but not the finished product.

The truth is he did 'rip off' TOS in a fashion that required close attention to detail.
He extrapolates his character development from very brief sketches in TOS.
For instance, Apollo argues with Adama concerning the plan to clear mines. Its one of the only times you see Apollo and Adama argue in TOS, but from that argument the seeds of nuGalacticas father son conflict rose. Go watch it, you'll see what I mean!
Moore is taking these scenes and extrapolating whole story arcs for his series.

The mere suggestion of religious doubt in TOS he has blown up into a raging question of morality and leadership in the mini.

TOS Starbucks gentle rebellious nature he has exploded/exaggerated into nuGalacticas fiery lady Starbuck.

The list goes on. He is remaking TOS in the image of his own writing style, priorities, and personal imagination. After reading his interviews I am certain that he is not disrespectful of TOS fans. Its just that he cannot make the product they would like. He has to make a product he can sell in a business environment that has changed very much since 1978. The reality of the business of television has little mercy for sentiment.

Obviously people are going to hate it. Especially if they enjoyed TOS purely as it was...........

I'm sorry that the product of his talent is not the Battlestar Galactica that many desire to see. I'm lucky because I enjoy his stlye, but I am certain there will be dissappointment ahead because what I would choose to emphasize will not be what he chooses to emphasize. I suspect nuGalactica will be very much character driven, where I would prefer to see stories that explore astrophysics and technology (and how they impact human life).
Sigh.
If only we could each make our own Battlestar Galactica!
But it is not to be.
There will always be dissappointment in someone elses vision.


For those who wish to see a Continuation (like myself ) our hope lies with CFF and DeSanto/Larsen. Mr Moores Galactica will live or die on its own merits (I'm hoping it will do well and last long!). It can only help the Continuation effort as far as I'm concerned.

oh oh! I'm rambling on and on, which means that my stomach is empty.
I'm gonna have pizza! Bye all.

[martok2112]

Well told, Ioraptor. Well told!

Respectfully,
Martok2112

Ioraptor:

You duplicate my thoughts but said it in a much better way. Thank you.

On another thread we once discussed what would you change about TOS if you could. Many said "nothing". Some said a few things here and there (especially Carillon). I think you hit the nail on the head with Moore. Moore "knows" TOS quite well. He simply doesn't think it would work in today's environment and/or thinks it is a fine outline but could be so much better.

I am not saying I agree with Moore but that's what I see.

If you go back as I have done since coming to the Battlestar web world and read the interviews and articles about TOS done at the time it was made and in the years after especially relating to what Larson said needed to be done to make Battlestar a continuing success you see a loose description of what Moore has actually done. Larson wanted a darker adult Galactica and it appears Moore took his advice. As you stated Moore looked at TOS (and even BG80) and has taken basic characters and subplots and blown up the ones he thought would be really good.

Other than the mythos and character names I wonder how many people would have been happy if Larson would have continued the original Galactica but followed the model he actually described. It would have not been appropriate for family viewing and the characters would have been flawed. I think if Larson had his way, today a lot of us would be talking about how Larson made a great show and then a year later destroyed it. It's something to think about.

[shiningstar]

Originally Posted by BST

Going through some of my paperbacks, today, I found this interesting little morsel.

It was in the "Battlestar Galactica" (Saga) paperback novelization, by Glen Larson and Robert Thurston, pp 84-85. I'll just transcribe some lines of dialogue:

I reading that. Thanks Bst.

[larocque6689]

Who is to say that God (or rather, some perverted idea of the deity) wasn't on the Cylons side? In the form of the fallen angel Count Iblis?

In the original Battlestar Galactica series the Colonials were decadent and corrupt, if you accept as "canon" dialog between Adama and Apollo on Uri and the Caprican renaissance. "No wonder our world fell apart".

As for El Queda and their ilk - I recognize that their religious idealogy is at the source of what they do. But they practice a perversion of religion.

Who programmed "God" into the Cylons?

[larocque6689]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

In fact, she was going to rather great lengths to encourage Adama, and her whole conversation with Apollo where her faith becomes apparent has to do with her belief in Divine Providence leading Adama to find Kobol for a reason.

Serina believed in the Colonial Scriptures, which she said brought the Galactica back to Kobol. And she wanted Apollo to believe too. Apolllo's turning point was on Serina's deathbed where he said he now also believed in an eternity. Apollo was turning away from skepticism.

Apollo embraced his father's religious heritage in a very large way in "War of the Gods". He was truly his father's son.