Religion and the new BSG

[137th Gebirg]

Something struck me as odd and I don't recall it being discussed anywhere.

When Number Six is explaining the reasoning behind her actions to Baltar, both before and after the attacks, she obliquely mentions the fact that she did what she did because "God" told her to. The Cylon at the Ragnar Anchorage postulates to Adama that perhaps the Cylons have evolved a new form of "soul", effectively making them the new "chosen people" in the universe. This gives the Cylons new motivations behind their need for conquest - not just because they're EEE-vil, but because there's a more thought-out and complex manifest destiny that has been built into their next-generation programming by unknown agents.

Knowing the backstory of the TOS Cylons, with the Imperious Leader being the embodiment of Iblis - the original Cylon "God" - is it entirely possible that, instead of the warlike reptillian Cylons having been manipulated by Iblis, the Colonials themselves were duped by a "fallen angel"-type character, leading them to build pseudo-sentient robots. The purpose of which was to ultimately overthrow the humans and bring them under this neo-Iblis' dominion, akin to his motives from TOS. Moore has already stated openly that he plans to re-visit some of the better TOS stories. Could this be one of them, along with the Pegasus/Cain thread? Many people have complained about the lack of spiritualism in this new version of BSG. Methinks that Moore is just taking a little bit longer to explore and build into it, possibly even taking it to a deeper level than the original did. Would this introduce some Colonial cult-like religion of Iblis/Satan worshippers? Could this group of rabble-rousers that Richard Hatch's new character is supposed to be in charge of be minions of Iblis, seeking to overthrow the Colonial powerbase and attempt to bring the rag-tag fleet under Iblis' control? This may be why Richard agreed to join the new cast, as he knows that Moore planned all along to follow the original plots. Maybe I'm reaching, but it would be kind of interesting.

Thoughts?

[137th Gebirg]

Anyone?

C'mon! I know some people have thought about this...

[Darth Marley]

Of course I think the new show has spiritual elements in it. But I like the new show.
Most of the complaining about it that I see is rather reflexive. It is not TOS so many will grab every difference to rationalize a dislike.

[PlaidSquadron]

I am not certain the new show contains "spitituality" in the same sense the old one does. The new show shows religion and spirituality in a negative light - the Cylons using God as the excuse for mass-murder and William Adama using the old texts to lie to his people (he clearly does not believe they are accurate, yet he knows the people of the fleet must, or he wouldn't use it)

The TOS used the religious aspects to explain the hope of the people, where the mini plays on the negative aspets.

You have some great speculation and insight. For those of us who enjoyed Moore's mini and think he may be using TOS and BG80 for themes the whole religious concept seems of much interest.

Moore supposedly wanted to make Battlestar Galactica more relevant to today's society. The cylons of TOS can be viewed as an archetype based on the Soviet Union as we perceived it in 1978. This is no longer relevant today. America's current enemy is Muslim religious extremists. They are capable of unspeakable brutality in the name of their god. Moore's cylons are patterned after them. The human halocaust of the mini is a 9/11 attack taken to its logical extreme. The war in Moore's universe is a religious war although at this point the colonials probably don't or barely realize it.

The mini is actually more overtly religious than TOS at this point. Remember that in Moore's universe we are only at the point of TOS at the end of Saga of A Star World. Religion and myth were just starting to make their appearance in Lost Planet of the Gods. The cylons in Moore's mini had a well constructed view of an afterlife, believed they had souls, believed they could hear from God, and believed that man no longer deserved to have a soul. As you stated they believe they are the new "chosen people".

Moore has stated an interest not just in Living Legend but in using the "ships of lights" concept. I think we will see as Moore's series goes on that we have a struggle between a greater good and evil just like we saw in TOS. I think a Satan type figure will turn out to be the leader of the cylons or like Count Iblis in TOS a Satan type figure may have started things in motion.

I see in this show that we also may be seeing a secular people find their religion through their tribulations. To some extent this may be similiar to the bible story where an Israelite people lost their religion to decadence and then God "allowed" their nation to be destroyed by the Babylonians. It was as a lost people taken away from their homeland that they again find their faith.

There is some thought that the cylons (or an element within them) are sparing the Galactica and rag tag fleet and herding them somewhere. If this is the case it may be that God is working through some part of the cylons to move humanity back to the rightful ways.

Maybe the often quoted line by the purist that "I was routing for the cylons" may in a convoluted way be exactly what Moore wanted at this point. The colonials are unworthy of their existence just like Sodom and Gomorrah or the days before the flood. God smited them but spared a small handful lead by a rightous man (or woman) who will start anew.

[Dawg]

You simply prove a point that we "purists" were trying to make early on, Antelope.

In Moore's universe:

Cylons = Al Qaida = God's chosen

Colonials = Americans = decadent imperialists who don't deserve to live.

Not in my universe. Not in TOS's, either.

I am
Dawg

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by antelope526

America's current enemy is Muslim religious extremists. They are capable of unspeakable brutality in the name of their god.

It's not just Muslim extremists that commit acts of brutality in the name of God. Christianity has had it's fair share of extremists as well throughout history: From the Inquisition through the Crusades right up too what Northern Ireland has been going through throughout the last century (Catholics AND Protestants).

This is supposed too be a War on Terror, not a War on Terrorist Muslims!

But I do agree with the rest of what you said.

History is filled with the religiously righteous who then go on to commit unspeakable acts whether it be Muslim, Christian, or Pagan. Today it seems that radical Muslims have the corner on the market for the moment.

I do know that Moore specifically mentioned 9/11 as an inspiration to the Moore cylon halocaust.

I believe that saying we have a "War on terrorism" is as stupid as saying we have a "War on RPGs" or a "War on roadside bombs". Terrorism is a tactic not a nation or ideology. We currently are in a war against a radical faction of Islamic believers supported by specific nation states. Calling this a "war on terror" is just a politically correct way of pretending that things aren't really what they are.

In your Northern Ireland reference Britain did not fight a "war on terrorism" but a war against a fanatical Irish nationalist group called the IRA who used terrorism as a tactic. You can point to various national or religious insurgencies throughout human history that use terrorism as a tactic to achieve political ends they can not accomplish in a conventional battle.

[Winemaster]

I have a big problem with human created Cylons. Moore needs to slip in that the technology came from elswhere and was "worked on and improved by the Colonials"

[braxiss]

Originally Posted by Dawg

You simply prove a point that we "purists" were trying to make early on, Antelope.

In Moore's universe:

Cylons = Al Qaida = God's chosen

Colonials = Americans = decadent imperialists who don't deserve to live.

Not in my universe. Not in TOS's, either.

I am
Dawg

well said, very well said

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by antelope526

The cylons of TOS can be viewed as an archetype based on the Soviet Union as we perceived it in 1978. This is no longer relevant today..

I reject the argument that that concept is not "relevant" today. For people like me, the idea of the Soviets and the Nazis before is that some conflicts can and should be seen in terms of a good/evil struggle with no shades of gray, and since I happen to believe that also applies to the current post-9/11 struggle that means that the Cylons of TOS are *more* "relevant" to today than ever.


"The mini is actually more overtly religious than TOS at this point."

And I also reject that argument. It is not "overtly" religious because there is not a single character in the Moore univesre who lives his life based on the principles of a religious based set of values. Stardoe's "prayer" scene in the context of everything else we see about her is the foxhole moment of someone who doesn't take it seriously and let it define her life like we saw it define Adama's life when he assumed the Moses type role with his "Let the word go forth" proclamation in SOASW.

"The cylons in Moore's mini had a well constructed view of an afterlife, believed they had souls, believed they could hear from God, and believed that man no longer deserved to have a soul. As you stated they believe they are the new "chosen people"."

And to make the only characters in the miniseries who express such sentiments the bad guys, that means that Moore is putting himself on an anti-religious footing that is totally contrary to the essence of TOS.

When Moore talks of wanting to look to TOS for additional insight, as far as I am concerned he is just BSing the fanbase and trying to sucker them, just like his gimmick casting of Richard Hatch is nothing more than an attempt to BS the fanbase.

Cylons = Al Queada = God's Chosen:
This would be in the mind of the cylon just as it is in the mind of the Islamic extremist. This would NOT imply they are God's chosen people or that Moore intends them to be.

Soviets/Nazis: War on fascist states will never end. In that sense the relavance of the TOS set up is always relavant. Baathist Iraq, under Saddam Hussein was just another fscist state. The lack of relevance to today's audience is only in the fact that we do not feel threatened with destruction by a fascist state at this moment in time. There is no Soviet Union or Nazi Germany on the Earth today. The closest you can get is China and I doubt anyone goes to bed at night today worried about a surprise Chinese nuclear attack on America. The fact that by design Moore's cylon scenario is more relevant to an audience in 2003 does not detract from the scenario of TOS which aired in 1978-1979.

If you want to believe SOASW has more overt references to religion then Moore's mini I can't stop what you believe even if it has no basis in reality. At this point in Moore's universe you have no idea what the religious beliefs of the main non-cylon characters are except Kara Thrace. In the mini we have colonial prayer, a speaking role from a person who is some form of priestess, an obviously religiously themed funeral ceremony, and a discussion of the soul. None of this occurred in SOASW. In SOASW we do not know the religious beliefs of any of the characters. The religious overtones of TOS do not positively manifest themselves until we see Lost Planet of the gods.

We don't need to take a 180 degree stand on everything in the mini.

When Moore says he wants to borrow things from TOS I assume he wants to make his versions as best he thinks he can so it has as wide an audience as possible so he can make as much money doing this series as long as he can. I don't think he sits up at night figuring out how he is going to sucker anyone.

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by antelope526

Cylons = Al Queada = God's Chosen:
This would be in the mind of the cylon just as it is in the mind of the Islamic extremist. This would NOT imply they are God's chosen people or that Moore intends them to be..

When there is NO meaningful counterpoint to this from the other society and we get instead a blatant indication of how little religion plays in the role of society, the only thing that ends up being obvious is that religion is for extremists or losers, and is only there as a ceremonial crutch to give some gullible people something to believe in if they feel desperate.

"The lack of relevance to today's audience is only in the fact that we do not feel threatened with destruction by a fascist state at this moment in time. There is no Soviet Union or Nazi Germany on the Earth today."

The evil ideology and the nature of a good/evil struggle without the rubbish of how "we brought it on ourselves" that is at the crux of the Moore miniseries is what makes TOS relevant to today and Moore utterly irrelevant.

"If you want to believe SOASW has more overt references to religion then Moore's mini I can't stop what you believe even if it has no basis in reality."

It has a lot more basis in reality (especially in light of how this series developed as envisioned by its creator and how it was consistent with what we saw in Saga) than any of your baseless arguments that Moore is looking to TOS for inspiration in his writing will ever have (like the "Sheba is Starbuck" bit)

"In the mini we have colonial prayer, a speaking role from a person who is some form of priestess,"

Who is there as a ceremonial prop and placed in (along with Stardoe's prayer bit) only after Moore got a lot of heat over the blatant anti-religious tone of his script.

"When Moore says he wants to borrow things from TOS"

And this only makes him more reprehensible. He jettisoned everything about TOS in his miniseries and reveled in how different and better it was, and now he wants to rely on TOS as his crutch to compensate for his lack of originality. If he wanted to rely on TOS he should have kept his hands off the property and allowed it to be continued by those who appreciated it.

Again if you have to go to the entire TOS series to support your argument not just SOASW it shows the invalidity of your point. We have not seen Moore's series so we do not know what overall impact religion will have either good or ill. Don't let your hatred of Moore and the mini blind you to rational discussion.

There is an element of "we brought it on ourselves" in SOASW as well. Baltar, a COLONIAL member of the council of 12 knowingly brought upon the destruction of colonial society. During Adama's talk with Apollo in which he defends his vote for Sire Yuri we see the shadow of a society that WAS great but descended into decadence. Later the naive and decadent Yuri again wants to give the colonials up to the cylons.

I often wonder from the post I read if some hard core Moore-haters are more upset that Moore didn't use TOS themes are more upset that he may have or will use TOS themes. If Moore bases much of his series on TOS it is hard to keep the hate going and still believe in the reality some are constructing (Moore is an evil man who intentionally harms TOS fans.).

I still don't understand why people who hate everything about the mini seek out or start mini specific threads. Everyone's free to do what they want but I will never understand it. It seems like an exercise in frustration to me.

[Darth Marley]

This topic come up with some regularity in BSG fandom discussions, even without reference to the RDM mini.
Every so often I have to point out that from a certain literalist, fundamentalist point of view, BSG TOS could be construed as being blasphemous in several ways.
The notion that life was created "out there" is a good place to start.
The notion that in this story, the "real" god created man somewhere else conflicts with rigid interpretation of Judeo-Christian scriptures.
The notion of beings of light acting as angels, and that we may someday ascend to their level has some notions that grate against a conventional interpretation of scripture.

I find it fascinating that certain conflicts with established religion are easier to overlook than the notion that the "bad guys" have a religion as well as the good guys.

And also, in many of the old parables, it is often a "bad" actor that is driving the moral point home.

[PlaidSquadron]

I think its kind of pointless to argue religion in TOS vs the mini. Fans of the old show have 20+ episodes to draw from and the mini has only 1 (2 if you count the days seperate)

Until the new ones are seen, the mini may or may not have anything religious - we just don't know.

From my point of view (based on the mini I now vaguely remember) the Cylons were the only ones to talk of God. I don't recall the Kara "prayer" and the priestess only had one line near the end. How will it play in the new series? Beats me. I just know I was uncomfortable with the minis tone (IMHO) that religion is somehow bad. If it was meant to show that blind faith to any religion is bad, it didn't register with me. What I got out of it was:

Cylons - extremest religion-causing problems
Humans - religious beliefs used to dupe the masses

I didn't like either potrayal.

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by antelope526

Again if you have to go to the entire TOS series to support your argument not just SOASW it shows the invalidity of your point. .

Wrong. I previously cited the religious aura that surrounds Adama taking the Moses role with his "Let the word go forth" proclamation, followed by how he presents his plan for finding Earth and his rebuke to the Council at Carillon for turning their backs on the "principles of the Lords of Kobol." Adama, the center of the Fleet in terms of what it and Colonial Civilization represents, is a man of faith who understands the need to rise to a great challenge when called on, even as he wishes the burden had not come over him. There is no such counterpart to this strength of faith in Moore. Stardoe's "prayer" is not indicative of what guides her life given her contemptible behavior in so many other areas.

Originally Posted by antelope526

There is an element of "we brought it on ourselves" in SOASW as well.

Not in the way of the miniseries. In TOS the human failure is the result of lack of vigilance in waging the struggle in a just and noble cause. Human civilization as a force for good in assisting those who had been oppressed by the Cylons is taken for granted. In Moore, there is no indication of human civilization representing a core group of values ("We love freedom, we love independence, the right to question") that make their cause just and indeed the mere existence of a "political prisoner" in the regular series further demonstrates how this is not the case in the Moore vision. Call it what you like, but Galactica it isn't.

"I often wonder from the post I read if some hard core Moore-haters are more upset that Moore didn't use TOS themes are more upset that he may have or will use TOS themes."

I resent his hijacking the series according to a vision that is not like Galactica at all because of the supposed badness of the original and what it repreented, and then deciding to hijack those points again to twist into his distorted worldview that makes up his series universe.

"I still don't understand why people who hate everything about the mini seek out or start mini specific threads. Everyone's free to do what they want but I will never understand it. It seems like an exercise in frustration to me."

In my case, I didn't start this thread, I responded to what I regard as some very dubious arguments. I have seen you attempt to argue Ron Moore having a greater knowledge of TOS when he did the mini than the factual record indicates, and this seems to be another attempt to state that.

For myself, the frustration will only end when (I hope) this series dies a quick death and then I can celebrate.

[BST]

Originally Posted by Darth Marley

This topic come up with some regularity in BSG fandom discussions, even without reference to the RDM mini.
Every so often I have to point out that from a certain literalist, fundamentalist point of view, BSG TOS could be construed as being blasphemous in several ways.
The notion that life was created "out there" is a good place to start.
The notion that in this story, the "real" god created man somewhere else conflicts with rigid interpretation of Judeo-Christian scriptures.
The notion of beings of light acting as angels, and that we may someday ascend to their level has some notions that grate against a conventional interpretation of scripture.

I find it fascinating that certain conflicts with established religion are easier to overlook than the notion that the "bad guys" have a religion as well as the good guys.

And also, in many of the old parables, it is often a "bad" actor that is driving the moral point home.

You make many good points, here, Darth.

Now, a thought or two of mine --

I don't view the religious aspects of TOS as being especially problematic when viewing the show from the standpoint of a "non-Earth civilization". Even though, in TOS, it is stated that the Colonies and Earth share a common root, i.e., the Tribes of Kobol, is it not acceptable that each civilization could (and probably did) evolve with many divergent beliefs and customs? What may seem blasphemous, to a present-day, real-life resident of Earth may be completely acceptable to a being from a star system millions of miles away. In other words, to watch a show about a people, from another part of the galaxy, I 'suspend reality'. I don't judge everything said or done on present-day Earth norms.

I view the religious aspects of the Mini-Series, in terms of the Cylons, as a means of giving legitimacy to their "jihad". I definitely view their assault on the humans as a holy war. Both, from what was said and done on the show, as well as the inspiration that Moore flat-out stated in his interview with Sandy (1st Moore interview with CA). He stated that he used 9-11 as a back-drop for the Cylon attack and said, to quote him, "read into it what you will". By his own inference, it said to me that he was portraying America in the guise of the Colonies and Al-Qaeda as the Cylons. I view the Cylon "religion" with much more importance to the show than the Colonial "religion" which has the look and feel of being a "last minute addition" to the script.

In the end, I see the Mini-Series as being more Earth-related than TOS. It's almost as if the Mini-Series was a story about "us", several hundred years into the future. TOS, OTOH, gives the impression of a people with whom we may share some commonality but, are different from us, nonetheless.

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

"I still don't understand why people who hate everything about the mini seek out or start mini specific threads. Everyone's free to do what they want but I will never understand it. It seems like an exercise in frustration to me."

In my case, I didn't start this thread, I responded to what I regard as some very dubious arguments. I have seen you attempt to argue Ron Moore having a greater knowledge of TOS when he did the mini than the factual record indicates, and this seems to be another attempt to state that.

For myself, the frustration will only end when (I hope) this series dies a quick death and then I can celebrate.

The factual record is what it is. The opinions of two individuals who read the same Moore interviews are another story. Your opinion is that Moore is ignorant of TOS. It is my opinion reading the exact same interviews that he is well versed in TOS and BSG80. Since neither of us can read his mind we both are only speculating.



Just look at the new series and the mini as any other TV show you don't care about and don't even think about. Let go of the hate. It isn't worth your effort. Leave the Moore world talk to those that are interested. We can all meet and be friends on all the TOS threads. Some threads cross both worlds. If you don't see it, just let it go.

[Dawg]

I can speak to your baseless and inflammatory accusations, antelope, since I, along with several others, helped found CFF.

Yes, we are TOS fans and disliked the mini - but nowhere in the CFF agenda is a campaign against it. Our agenda is focussed 100% on supporting a continuation movie. It's been stated, over and over again, and to have you suddenly pop up and question our motivations is extremely offensive.

And the CFF campaign is not over - we have a few hundred dollars left to raise to buy a color ad in Daily Variety - something no fan group has done before.

So before you start tossing out baseless accusations like that you'd damn well better get your facts straight.

Keep it up and you'll find out exactly what a mad Dawg can do.

I am
Dawg

Originally Posted by Darth Marley

This topic come up with some regularity in BSG fandom discussions, even without reference to the RDM mini.
Every so often I have to point out that from a certain literalist, fundamentalist point of view, BSG TOS could be construed as being blasphemous in several ways.
The notion that life was created "out there" is a good place to start.

If you are a literal Christian and raise your kids that way Battlestar Galactica can definitely conflict with your belief system and put ideas in your kids head that you don't want them to have.

I am not a literal Christian but think the hardest thing to square with reality is the thought that human life on Earth originates on another planet. This conflicts totally with human and non-human evolutionary science as we know it today. As a viewer I simply accept the premise as is and suspend reality on that issue.

To me the Judeo-Christian and evolutionary science concepts of human origins could square with the show if Kobol in Lost Planet of the Gods is in fact Earth. Since the images seen are obviously the pyramids at Giza it is entirely possible that Kobol was Earth. Earth simply became unable to support life and humanity migrated to the stars. 12 colonies became the colonial world and the 13th became Terra, which is the Latin based language word for Earth anyway. Even in English I have seen that the that the word Terra is sometimes interchanged for Earth. I am sure if they wanted they could square the name Kobol with Earth. It could be an acronym for a future Earth based government or even the name of some future country that came to have dominion over the Earth.

I never had a problem with the angels since their appearance may simply have been in a form we could understand. The war between Satan and God was alive and well in TOS as it is in the bible.

Deleted by Antelope

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by antelope526

The factual record is what it is. The opinions of two individuals who read the same Moore interviews are another story. Your opinion is that Moore is ignorant of TOS. It is my opinion reading the exact same interviews that he is well versed in TOS and BSG80. Since neither of us can read his mind we both are only speculating.

Antelope, I am sorry, but this is nonsense. In his own words, he stated that in a 25 year span since 1979 he had watched a grand total of 1 and 1/2 episodes of Galactica, and that is not the mark of someone "well-versed" in TOS. That is the mark of someone who is in fact quite ignorant of it, and his ignorance showed aplenty elsewhere in his interviews, and in those of his fellow producers who couldn't recall such mundane things like (1) the strong roles played by female characters such as Athena and Sheba in their assignments (2) the nature of the character relationships without all the dysfunctional family junk that Moore all but lifted from a bad film like "In Harms Way" etc. etc. etc. This is a trend where subjective "opinion" must give way to an objective truth when the evidence is very overwhelming on that point.

Originally Posted by antelope526

I do notice over time that many of the hard core anti-Moore crowd are motivated in their desire to kill the new series.

I plead guilty to wanting it to fail and fall on its astrum. I believe that it's very existence is a demeaning insult to 25 years of attempts to get TOS some recognition as a fine series, and its continued existence means there is zero chance of the kind of continuation we have waited 25 years for only to get screwed at every turn from ever happening. I will rejoice the day it is cancelled, and my only hope is that it happens as soon as possible. But that is only my personal opinion of the matter, and proud as I am of it, there is no conspiracy connected with those who are organizing the CFF efforts since I have seen for the most part a general attitude that success of Moore helps their efforts which I do not agree with.

Originally Posted by antelope526

Just look at the new series and the mini as any other TV show you don't care about and don't even think about.

Sorry but Ronald Moore is the one who chose to slap the name "Battlestar Galactica" on this and then have his minions go out of their way to run down TOS at every possible turn, and now that he needs TOS fanbase to let his show survive because the ratings were not exactly the kind that can sustain a long-term show, he's sounding notes of borrowing TOS plot lines that I know he wasn't familiar with when he wrote the miniseries and resorting to gimmicks like casting Richard Hatch, which I will never be convinced is anything other than a stunt to try and mute the voices critical of his effort and calling for a continuation.

Ron Moore in effect sabotaged 25 years worth of hopes and dreams for a true continuation, and so long as his fake version remains in production he won't get any slack from me, and that is a view I hold no apologies for. It isn't "hate" it's a matter of principled conviction, and one that I and many others are proud to have. This is not about hating individuals as people and wishing for bad things to happen to them in their lives, it is about hating an impersonal project that has no feelings to hurt and hoping that it will not survive to supplant TOS in terms of what Battlestar Galactica is supposed to be about.

Originally Posted by antelope526

Leave the Moore world talk to those that are interested. We can all meet and be friends on all the TOS threads. Some threads cross both worlds. If you don't see it, just let it go.

Antelope, you are the one who keeps trying to push non-existent linkage between TOS and Moore and championing what I regard as an untenable position that he is somehow well-versed on TOS when the factual record shows otherwise. Most of the times when I feel compelled to comment on Moore stems when I see these false premise linkages pushed, because I think they don't help matters. You can choose to like or dislike Moore's effort, but it is not rooted in TOS it is a pastiche of Star Trek attitudes and bad movies like "In Harm's Way" with a few basic premises and character names from Galactica slapped in that could have been picked up by anyone who read a paragraph summary of the pilot movie. There is no deep thought on Moore's part for TOS concepts, and should they emerge in future episodes I have little doubt they will be twisted again to serve the interests of a most decidedly un-TOS agenda that permeated the miniseries.

Those are my views, and you may call them harsh, but they are my convictions on this subject and I am sticking to them. That means if you want to push the idea that there are linkages between Moore and TOS, be prepared to defend what you say from those of us who know that that just ain't so.

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by antelope526

I am not accussing anybody of anything. I do however wonder about the mindset of what is going on. The reason I question this is very simple. I see many people who hate the mini and the unseen Moore series who open thread after thread and reply after reply on the subject that accusses Ron Moore or anyone who likes his work of all kinds of horrible things. I see stated over and over again that Ron Moore is an arrogant SOB who intentionally is destroying Battlestar Galactica. I see these same people saying how they will not watch his show and even if they did would do it on video as not to increase the ratings. We do have a stealth campaign to tell people not to watch so as to keep the ratings low so the show can be destroyed. Once it is destroyed we can "celebrate".

Yes, you are accusing. You're accusing an honorable man of being two-faced about his aims.

There is one aim of CFF and its leadership: showing support for a TOS movie. Period. If you also liked the mini and are looking forward to the series, great. More power to you. We don't care. We have a very narrow view: if you liked TOS enough to want to see a continuation movie made, then you're part of CFF, too. The mini or the upcoming series, no matter how well it does or doesn't do, isn't part of that equation.

Our personal views of the mini vary. These, however, are non-issues where CFF is concerned.

Originally Posted by antelope526

The CFF needs every penny it can get from every Battlestar fan. We are all regularly asked to help, primarily by Commander Taggert. People including Ron Moore and yes even myself and many other TOS/mini fans sent money. The very leader of this contribution drive turns around and says horrible stuff about Ron Moore as a person and says that anyone who likes the mini is not a real Battlestar Galactica fan. Saying we are not Battlestar Galactica fans is about as condescending and insulting as you can get on a Battlestar site. Maybe in your mind the person and the organization are two separate things but to me the leadership of an organization tends to reflect the thoughts and values of the organization. It is not funny or reasonable to read a thread where mini fans (as opposed to the mini) are attacked followed a few replies later saying they don't want to help.

I actually follow that. But I point out again that the CFF effort is a very narrow one: support of a continuation movie. Period. Our personal opinions of the mini or its creators do not enter into that one iota. CT has answered that eloquently over at CA; I suggest you refresh your memory.

Originally Posted by antelope526

My question is this: The goal of CFF is to show Larson et all that there is still interest in TOS Battlestar Galactica. Don't you think that has been accomplished by the sale figures of the box set, the multiple web sites dedicated to TOS, the written hostility to the mini and Moore at conventions, and most importantly the success of last years scifi remake?

The sales figures are the largest piece of the equation to the suits so far. Web sites might tickle their interest, but not much, I think. What they're waiting for is the grass-roots indications that there is support for such a film: the TOS sales figures, certainly, but there needs to be more. The CFF ads are aimed at that "more". There can never be too much positive influence.

Originally Posted by antelope526

I just question now if the goal of CFF is to have a big ad saying we love TOS Battlestar Galactica in the hope that when the series tanks as many hope the Continuation doesn't go down with it? Are we trying to differentiate the properties? Is this to some extent an ad that says behind the lines: We don't want the Battlestar you are giving us?

The goal of CFF is to have a big ad saying we love TOS BSG. Period. And to hopefully get letters written to Glen and Tom in support. Period. End of story. How many times to we have to say that the success or failure of the mini/series has no influence on our goals?

Originally Posted by antelope526

I guess my bottom line on this subject is that you can't ask and take peoples money and then insult them tomorrow and expect them to sit idly by and think you are benevolent.

There are not enough purist around to make the goals of CFF happen. If you get those ads it will be thanks to ALL Battlestar Galactica fans. I am sure some say CFF is separate from its leaders but the handle that appears with hat is hand is the same handle that kicks you in the butt and laughs about it.

I wouldn't want to see what a mad dog can do. Over the last year I have seen throughout the Battlestar Galactica web world what happens when a TOS only fans gets in a hard argument with a TOS/mini fan. The TOS/mini fan gets cut out of the board because they are always the insulting party in the eyes of management. Now that you are a co-owner at cylon.org I can see what you are implying.

Is CFF an organization for ALL Battlestar Galactica fans? Does CFF believe that people who enjoy the mini and TOS are Battlestar Galactica fans? If the owners of CFF do not think TOS/mini fans are real Battlestar Galactica fans why should we feel like we are part of the CFF team? Is the CFF really the TOS only fan force or would you ask Count Iblis for his money and then kick him in the butt once you cashed his check?

Since you're simply repeating yourself here, I'll answer the last. CFF is an organization for all BSG fans who want to see a continuation movie. If you want to see a continuation movie, you're part of CFF. You've given money, antelope, then you're part of the organization. You're a valuable and valued part of CFF. The fact you're looking forward to the new series is immaterial to me, as part of CFF, as part of this board, as co-owner of CA (and I resent the implication, after so long being part of this community, that I'd allow that to dictate whether I'd ban somebody).

The success or failure of the CFF campaign won't be known, possibly for a year or more. This is an effort to show what kind of support there is for the movie.

Period.

I am
Dawg

[BST]

This thread is being closed until further notice. I will post a more detailed reason shortly.

BST

[jewels]

Originally Posted by antelope526

The factual record is what it is. The opinions of two individuals who read the same Moore interviews are another story. Your opinion is that Moore is ignorant of TOS. It is my opinion reading the exact same interviews that he is well versed in TOS and BSG80. Since neither of us can read his mind we both are only speculating.

Innacurrate when the man himself stated in a Q&A fall of 2002 that he'd only watched the pilot before writing the mini. He was viewing the rest of TOS in Oct. 2003 when he was researching plots and storylines for his series, he sought out more background then. When he wrote the mini he had no freaking idea there was a Pegasus for example. By last fall he was looking into using the Living Legend storyline.

Originally Posted by antelope526

I do notice over time that many of the hard core anti-Moore crowd are motivated in their desire to kill the new series. I am starting to wonder if the timing and scale of the colonial fan forces efforts are more about attempting to kill the new series as it is about actually getting a continuation. Your opinions seemed shared by some that obsess about what Moore is doing and at the same time are on the vangard of the so called "Continuation" effort. Since the stated goals of the colonial fan force has already been accomplished in the past year I wonder what the real goals of those leading the effort are.

Wrong. Timing of Colonial Fan force has nothing to do with trying to kill Moore's series. Not even related. Only the Bonnie Hammer has that sort of control. Or maybe Sky pulling their funding, which I'm sure they are contractually bound to. CFF has everything to do with convincing a certain Mr. Glen Larson that we want HIS show back. He and Hollywood studio financiers are all that truly matter (though I want Tom DeSanto involved so bad I can visualize he Richard and Dirk standing together on a soundstage.).

Don't take this the wrong way but when everyone is asked to help the effort but the man in charge (I'm not referring to you) still thinks everyone not a purist is not a real Battlestar Galactica fan it does make you wonder what is really going on.

I would advise you that being single-mindedly focused on your objective is not a sign of a conspiracy. We graduated from conspiracy theory a long while ago around here. Those of us, for whom only TOS is Galactica on TV, simply have a different goal in our sights. Others see that the two can coexist and they can enjoy both. Please sit back and enjoy that in a few short months you will have your series. In all practicallity it may take our movie 2-3 years.

BTW: If you make another snide accusation toward a member here (all the CFF folks are), you may find yourself on a forced vacation. That comment was pushing the envelope.

Just look at the new series and the mini as any other TV show you don't care about and don't even think about. Let go of the hate. It isn't worth your effort. Leave the Moore world talk to those that are interested. We can all meet and be friends on all the TOS threads. Some threads cross both worlds. If you don't see it, just let it go.

That reads condesending, Antelope. When I could care a flip less about the success or failure of RDM's series, seeing you saying "let go of the hate" is you perpetuating a myth that is not true of the majority of fans. The myth is an insult and causes me to speculate about your motives here. I can tell you as a long term mod, be careful of how you say something, communication is not as clear in writing as it is in person when body language and expression add volumes of nuance. And the losers in these sort of statements are the people who are fans of both shows: gives them a distate for discussing either.

Jewels

whoops, BST hung out the closed sign while I was composing. he has the last word.

[BST]

Thanks, Jewels!

Now, as promised, I've got a few things to say and I may NOT be as eloquent as Jewels!

When debating an issue, the primary responsibility of ALL participants is to DEBATE the ISSUE, NOT PERSONALITIES!!

The idea is that opponents in a debate are encouraged to gather facts and present arguments. The logic of the argument will indicate which will be the prevailing view.

This particular topic was moving along at a nice pace, with various ideas and points of view being shared....UNTIL

...a remark was made questioning someone's integrity and intentions.

A quick reply was made, in an effort to defend that "someone" ; however, no "defense" should have been necessary. The question about someone's integrity and intentions were NOT and are NOT part of this discussion. Furthermore, the person, whose integrity and intentions were questioned, has been accused, without provokation and without basis or merit. The person, who we all know as Commander Taggart, has stated PUBLICLY and FOR THE RECORD what the intent of the Colonial Fan Force is and how the monies collected will be spent. The contributor(s) know that before contributing. To allude to something sinister being fomented is insulting.

To be absolutely clear on the issue, this type of "conversation" WILL NOT BE TOLERATED at Colonial Fleets. The only problem remaining is that the accusation is still available for public viewing, therefore, to set the record straight, a public apology should be issued, linking to the accusation.

This can be considered a WARNING!


BST

[BST]

I'm re-opening this thread, which deals with the issue of "Religion and the new BSG".



Happy debating!

[thomas7g]

Getting back on the subject....


I'm not going to argue this, but try to place it better in context.

I would like to remind people of two things that influenced the original into becoming a more faith based show than its sucessor. First of all is Glen Larson, who is a VERY religious man. His show reflects his strong beliefs. The show has no real obscenities. It has nothing really obscene, not by the good guys especially. And his faith is reflected in that the show pulls alot of elements from his religion. This Adam's Ark is basically Moses leading the Jews out Egypt were they were persecuted and toward the Promised Land. The Carrilon segment was basically the retelling of the jews, who when they reached the base of Mt Sinai declared themselves delivered from their persuers and did fall back into sloth and sin. But Moses saved them and lead them back on the path toward the Holy Land.

2nd, The show reflects a very popular book of its day, Chariots Of The Gods, which linked our history, religion and mythology to ancient visitations from outer space. And BG follows that weird connection between aliens from outer space, and godlike religious forces.

The new show really hasn't defined its stance on religion. It has the colonials believing in a lie. While the cylons have some undefined sort of religious view. But right now we really don't know where it is going with this.

[Darth Marley]

Tom, the first part of the last post I have no dissenting or elucidating comment on.
But;

2nd, The show reflects a very popular book of its day, Chariots Of The Gods, which linked our history, religion and mythology to ancient visitations from outer space. And BG follows that weird connection between aliens from outer space, and godlike religious forces.

This is true, but the point of a previous point of mine in this thread is that these suggestions can be concidered blasphemous from a strict legalistic and fundamentalist viewpoint. Von Daniken's use of OT scriptures to suggest that some of the biblical apparitions were aliens does seem to take an element of the divine out of the God of the Old Testament.
The notion (memory may be bad here...long term loss of short term memory) from Hand of God that humanity may evolve into godlike beings of light just as those beings crawled up the evolutionary ladder to a divine-like state could for some rob the divine of some of its splendor.

The new show really hasn't defined its stance on religion. It has the colonials believing in a lie.

Now this meme I have to disagree with in stronger terms, speaking of the second sentence. Cmdr. Will Adama is presented in what could from their context be called an athiest. He does not believe the old sriptures that tell of the 13th colony of Earth. The "lie" was that the location of Earth was the highest secret of the Fleet. In real world terms, it is like an athiestic politician professing belief to gain votes, or perhaps to comfort the populace after a crisis, and then goin on to say that the highest secret of government was the location of the Ark of the Covenant, or the Holy Grail to "lead" the weary survivors on a quest to distract them from their plight. The Colonials in the audience may be quite devout themselves, and their faith is not a lie, but is faith held either strongly or weakly.

While the cylons have some undefined sort of religious view. But right now we really don't know where it is going with this.

Nothing here that I disagree with.
But I would point out the old Abe Lincoln speech that was dusted off in the recent clash of cultures between the Western world and Dar al Islam.
The speech pointed out the dichotomy of both of the opposing sides in the American Civil War praying to the same God for victory in a righteous cause.