The Aliens of Galactica

[spcglider]

Originally Posted by WarMachine

Also, you have to consider what "sentience" means: I have heard a very serious argument - one I am fully comfortable with, incidentally - that dolphins are fully sentient...they just don't use or make tools as we understand them

Precisely my point on the intelligence issue.

-G

But in the end, you cannot prove a negative. Who says you can't? Since we've never been to another galaxy, we cannot say for certain that the rules of life, intelligence, whatever are the same or even similar to what they are here. It is not even "highly unlikely" that my ideas about it are less possible than those of the most learned string-theory scientist... because we haven't been there to see

This is true to a point. But if there were pockets in other galaxies, or even our own galaxy that were operating by a seperate set of physics then I would suspect it would be a "leak" from another universe or dimension.

Then I submit that, on the basis of absolute lack of knowlege concerning alien life, that my PURE speculation is just as valid as your plain old, everyday speculation!

Oh absolutley, I was never trying to invalidate your speculation. I was only trying to suggest that the idea of humanoid life forms may not be as cheesy as some might consider, since there may very well be a working mechanism in physics to explain this. That this sort of speculation actually has merit as well.

Of course no octopod has read "Flatworld"... but by your own admission, neither have you. Does that make you as un-intelligent as an octopod?

That was a toungue in cheek remark not meant to be taken quite so literally. My point was that I know of no octopods that can read or write or philosophize or reason.

Perhaps the octopod would consider you stupid since you don't know how to locate the best supply of fresh, live shellfish for lunch.

lol. But it would be something I can decide to learn how to do. The octopod could never learn how to change a tire on my car for instance, or comprehend quantum physics.

Then we DO agree!!!

Looks like it for the most part.

Also, you have to consider what "sentience" means: I have heard a very serious argument - one I am fully comfortable with, incidentally - that dolphins are fully sentient...they just don't use or make tools as we understand them

this is always a difficult question and I'm not sure there's any concrete answers at this point in time. It may very well be that every life form is sentient, however without the proper physical structures it may never develop written language, or technologies. Who knows. for myself, I would say sentience would entail self awareness and the ability to reason.

[spcglider]

Okay, I want to preface here.

I'm having a great time with this conversation. If I start to sound aggressive, I apologize... I am certainly not trying to anger anyone. I love discussions like this, and the wittier the better. I love the mental exercise.

If for ANY reason I start getting on your nerves, please tell me.

That having been said, on to more conversation!

" Of course no octopod has read "Flatworld"... but by your own admission, neither have you. Does that make you as un-intelligent as an octopod?"

"That was a toungue in cheek remark not meant to be taken quite so literally. My point was that I know of no octopods that can read or write or philosophize or reason."

The humor was not lost on me. In fact it was a brilliant retort! But that still does not preclude their existence. Unless you got some sort of inside track...

"Perhaps the octopod would consider you stupid since you don't know how to locate the best supply of fresh, live shellfish for lunch."

"lol. But it would be something I can decide to learn how to do. The octopod could never learn how to change a tire on my car for instance, or comprehend quantum physics."

NEVER? Once again, you're not accepting that we still don't know as much as we think we do. It might appear to be a silly notion, but it could very well be that Ocotopods COMPLETELY understand quantum physics... they just don't have any use for it. I for one haven't been able to communicate with an octopus to find out exactly how much they do know. The same goes for changing a tire on a car. Perhaps, if given a chance and the proper impetus to do so, an octopus could figure out how to change a tire on a car. Maybe they've already done it... they pretend to be helpless sea creatures and prey on the kindness of humanoids who take pity and change the tires FOR them? Now THAT's intelligent!!! Neither of these things can be a benchmark for intelligence. But fooling another species into doing your work for you? That's brilliant.

We may understand quantum physics but we have yet to seriously apply it to everyday life. How intelligent is that?
We may be able to change a tire on a car, but wouldn't it be more intelligent to design a tire that doesn't need to be changed? Or do away with tires altogether?

It can be said that these are unfair questions. But asking a life form such as an octopus to change a tire is just as unfair. The octopus might just as well ask you to conduct your daily affairs at 1000 feet below sea level and then wonder why you weren't doing so well at it.

" this is always a difficult question and I'm not sure there's any concrete answers at this point in time. It may very well be that every life form is sentient, however without the proper physical structures it may never develop written language, or technologies. Who knows. for myself, I would say sentience would entail self awareness and the ability to reason. "

I submit that it is VERY difficult to prove self-awareness. I think you'll agree with me on that.

Not to keep championing the ever present octopus, but they HAVE shown reasoning ability in multiple scientific tests. I'm sure the results are available online somewhere! They've been able to comprehend stuff like screw-top containers and see-through plastic boxes. Pretty smart for a sea critter.

But if you add to that the Cuttlefish, you have a species that has developed a seriously complex and completely unique "language" via the color vessels in their skin! They've shown that the cuttlefish actually communicate in this fashion. Its pretty creepy.

And then you have the common honey bee. They too have developed a complex language for translating the directions to plumb locations full of raw food sources. That counts as intelligent communication to me.

Do bees have self-awareness? I don't have the slightest clue.

-Gordon

I'm having a great time with this conversation. If I start to sound aggressive, I apologize... I am certainly not trying to anger anyone.

No, not at all.

But that still does not preclude their existence. Unless you got some sort of inside track...

True enough. All I was really trying to point out was that since we know of no other advanced intelligent species, that a humanoid physicality could be just as likely as not.

[IMG]NEVER? Once again, you're not accepting that we still don't know as much as we think we do.[/IMG]

Honestly I don't. I don't think that mankind has gained the sum total of all potential knowledge by a long shot. Which is in part why I'm arguing to a viable possibility for a humanoid shaped extraterrestrial.

Maybe they've already done it... they pretend to be helpless sea creatures and prey on the kindness of humanoids who take pity and change the tires FOR them?

It would be very difficult for me to imagine a scenario in which a species hides it's own mental and physical prowess for centuries. But anything is possible I suppose.

The octopus might just as well ask you to conduct your daily affairs at 1000 feet below sea level and then wonder why you weren't doing so well at it.

It's not necessarily the physical challenge of changing a tire that I was trying to point to, but the mental challenge of doing so. The understanding of the changing of a tire, and then being able to take steps to put that understanding to practical use.

And then you have the common honey bee. They too have developed a complex language for translating the directions to plumb locations full of raw food sources. That counts as intelligent communication to me.

Bees and ants are very...curious. They build their own structures, they have language for lack of a better word, a social structure. Very curious indeed.

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by WarMachine

Also, you have to consider what "sentience" means: I have heard a very serious argument - one I am fully comfortable with, incidentally - that dolphins are fully sentient...they just don't use or make tools as we understand them

I agree. Very good point. And I will say, since I am a believer in God, that I think many creatures were given "sentience", but they are of a different order than our own. The Creeping Blorch from the Lesser Zotz Galaxy may well be sentient, but neither of us might recognize it in the other.

[spcglider]

Originally Posted by Senmut

The Creeping Blorch from the Lesser Zotz Galaxy may well be sentient, but neither of us might recognize it in the other.

Yes, but they DO make the hoopiest frood food in all of the eastern galaxy!!



-Gordon

[Lara]

Originally Posted by spcglider

I
And as far as humanoid aliens are concerned, I just like the idea that intelligent life wouldn't necessarily evolve two arms and two leags and a head EVERY friggin' chance it got.

-Gordon

The short answer, of course is its cheaper to have a actor in latex than animatronics!!

But to the discussion of alien bilogy, one of my favourite artists is Wayne D Barlowe, who actually did a lot of science behind his aliens and Barlowes Guide to Extraterrestrials is a classic (he was one of the artists I featured in my High School Art Dissertation on SciFi art, a long time ago, he also did concept work for Galaxy Quest, Blde 2 and Hellboy, and even stuff for Pitch Black)

His new/current web site is http://www.waynebarlowe.com/
Altho I note he's doing stuff for Discovery based on Expedition! (I hope they gave him full reign

Cheers,
Lara)

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by spcglider

Yes, but they DO make the hoopiest frood food in all of the eastern galaxy!!



-Gordon

I know. I saw them doing an "Iron Chef" contest on the Food Channel last week. Even the Dentrassi envy them.

And who's this guy?

[Sept17th]

Andrew Fullen

[jewels]

Originally Posted by jjrakman

I can understand that and actually agreed with you at one point. But then I started reading about Golden Ratio and the Golden Spiral. This is a set of geometry that dictates nearly everything in nature, as far as how it is formed. It dictates the curves of seashells, the placements of seeds in a sunflower, the way that branches grow on trees, the placement of the navel in the human body, etc. Once you start looking at this geometry, it does appear that nautre is more designed, and less random.

Having said that it may not be a stretch to consider that the geometric formation for an intelligent being is dictated by the humanoid form. In other words, the geometry of the Universe mandates that intelligent lifeforms manifest in humanoid form. So the idea of all these aliens being humanoid becomes far less cheesy.

Just a thought.

Not that I can remember what it's called right now, but there is a concept in musical structure that relates to the Golden Ratio and Golden Spiral so the relationships from our physical world to that bit of math are more than pure visual. (the easiest visual example of the spiral's proportions are a nautilis shell's compartments, isn't it?)

(the easiest visual example of the spiral's proportions are a nautilis shell's compartments, isn't it?)

Yes, also the placement of seeds on a sunflower.

[KJ]

Babylon 5 tried really hard at first to introduce beleivable [red]aliens[/red]... remember the foggy room with the praying mantis alien? The main characters had to wear special breather gear to go visit him. That's a cool concept, but their execution was a little dicey. And then that bit completely disappeared from the show because it held up the action when suddenly they had to switch gears for this one alien.

Pity they removed that from the special edition of the pilot, i thought that part was inventive. JMS has siad himself that sci-fi needs to break away from the humanoid aliens concept cos real aliens surely wouldn't be humanoid, they just are in our fictional tale stories so we can relate to them in some small way is all.

Nice picture there Jjrakman, show how alot of stuff was cut from the pilot. perhaps cos it was too blatantly a "rip off" from Star Wars' Cantina scene, so the aliens were pared down a bit in the Carillon scenes.

Originally Posted by Sept17

Andrew Fullen

Now now, i know this isn't Harry Potter's Lord Voldemort, but we don't speak that name. Please refer to him as He who shall not be named etc. As Mr Weasely once said in HP:POA, "Don't say his name"!

KJ

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by WarMachine

About ten years ago, there was a book called "Making Contact", by Bill Fawcett; it was an anthology of articles discussing everything from biology to "How to Talk to an Extraterrestrial".

One of the articles that stuck out for me was a discussion of biology, and how at least some ET's should be bipedal, two-armed, two-legged, with a head on top that has a pair of eyes above a nose and mouth...and yet, having said that, there is no reason to expect an ET to be able to pass without comment on the street of some major city.

Favorite line(paraphrased): "...There may, in fact, be many, many Sarek's out there - but there will never be a Mr. Spock; [Spock's mother, Amanda] would have an easier time breeding with an ear of corn, than with Sarek."(This, from a discussion about the effects of DNA...)

Also, you have to consider what "sentience" means: I have heard a very serious argument - one I am fully comfortable with, incidentally - that dolphins are fully sentient...they just don't use or make tools as we understand them

One should never say never. Until we have actual non-terrestrial DNA in hand, better yet a live alien, such pronouncements are presumptuous, at best.

[Jubal]

I like this thread. Got a bit deep there for bit talking about the possibilities of life and all. I think Battlestar Galactica is not a true scientific universe by any means. Look at it, in Battlestar you have ships that fly through space, make thruster noises, and shooting effects. Would I change that? Frack no!

So anyway, loved the aliens. I was one of those that was glad there were so many budget contrants that made the show have an occational alien over a Cylon.

I always hoped that at some point we would have seen a colony of the reputilian race that spawned the Cylons. Maybe even had them ally themselves with the humans to fight the Cylons.

Nomen, I think, were basically alien. When we say "alien" here, we mean a cool difference. In truth, I think all of the 12 colonies had their own differences and could be brought out on their own. They might have even had slight physical differences.

And bringing that up, don't forget one of the "aliens" was the clones on Gun on Ice Planet Zero. Truly cool.

Truthfully, I think the direction the show was going to take, to have more aliens and have fewer and fewer Cylons was a cool idea.