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Old October 31st, 2004, 07:03 AM   #1
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Default Please read before the election!

http://members.cox.net/classicweb/Heroes/heroes.htm

This is what the election is all about this time, IMHO.
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Old October 31st, 2004, 08:13 AM   #2
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Thanks for the reminder, WHD.

I haven't forgotten, nor shall I.

I will be staying the course.
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Old October 31st, 2004, 08:17 AM   #3
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Thought I'd add a picture:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg WTC_Angel_Towers.jpg (32.9 KB, 2 views)
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Old October 31st, 2004, 08:17 AM   #4
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i to am staying the course
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Old October 31st, 2004, 11:43 AM   #5
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Who could forget such a thing, The images have shaken the world, the lives of the innocent taken through a act of coward's, The world is now a place of distrust and hatred.
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Old October 31st, 2004, 12:06 PM   #6
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Potemkin for much of the world it has been such a place for centuries this is all very new for the USA, to experience it on their soil. I grew up with the FLQ in Quebec acts of Terrorism in my own country by my own countrymen. I worried about walking down the street as a 9 year old wondering if the next unattended bag was a bomb or if the postal box was going to blow up. The actions perpetrated on 9/11 were that of revenge. Which is what most terrorism is about revenge seeking. Someone does something to you so you want to retaliate. But no one seems to be looking at or asking the question WHY, why did this happen why were these people so angry at the US that they felt the need to seek out this level of revenge. This will never be resolved until you find out why and understand why and do something about addressing that. Otherwise you enter into an unending battle of constant revenge seeking. Somewhere in Iraq or Afghanistan there is a little boy seeing his family killed by Americans he is too young to understand the reason why these Americans have come to his country and why his family is dead his home destroyed all he knows is that everything he loved is dead or destroyed and so another revenge seeker is born. And 20 years from now another plane is flying into another building on US soil. Violence in not the solution, it only breeds more violence the proof being that you have but to look at your own reactions to 9/11 all of you are so angry you want nothing but revenge and to do more violence. You don't think Iraqis and Afghanis are not feeling the same way? When and where does it end?
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Old October 31st, 2004, 12:31 PM   #7
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Do you realise that

It is costing 100 billion dollars to the US citizens for the war in Iraq?

That in the fiscal year of 2001 there was a $127 billion dollar budget surplus when Bush came into power there is now a $374 Billion dollar budget deficit in the fiscal year of 2003? The biggest deficit in US history!!

Your current national debt is $6.843 Quadrillion! With an average increase of $1.58 billion increase each day??

That means that each US citizen share of the national debt as of Oct of 2003 is $23, 396?

440,257 – Number of bankruptcies filed during the second quarter of 2003, more than in any other quarter in US history

The biggest two year point drop in the history of the stock market during the first half of a presidential term

The most residential real-estate foreclosures in a one – quarter period

1.6 – the percentage increase in economic growth since Bush took office – the slowest rate of increase over an equivalent period for any administration in 50 years!

58 million – number of acres of public lands Bush has opened to road building, logging and drilling

200 – Number of public health and environmental laws Bush has worked to down grade or weaken since taking office

The USA is now ranked as the Number one biggest producer of greenhouse gas emissions worldwide.



Bush took 28 vacation days in the month of August last year that is the second longest vacation taken by a President except for Nixon.

During Bush term there has been the highest job loss since Herbert Hoover. 2.4 million Americans lost their jobs during the first 2 ½ years of Bush’s presidency.

Bush has assembled the wealthiest cabinet in US history.

$10.9 million – Average wealth of the members of Bush’s original 16 person cabinet

75 the percentage of Americans unaffected by Bush’s 2003 cuts in the capital-gains and dividends taxes.

$42,000 – Average savings members of Bush’s Cabined are expected to receive this year as a result of cuts in capital-gains and dividends taxes.

$42,228 – Median household income in the U.S, in 2001

$116,000 – Amount Vice President Dick Cheney is expected to save each year in taxes.

9 – Number of members of Bush’s Defence Policy Board who also sit on the corporate board of, or advise, at least one defence contractor.

43.6 Million – Number of Americans without health insurance as of 2002.

$300 Million – Amount cut in December 2002 from the federal program that provides subsidies to poor families so they can heat their homes during the winter.

35 –Number of countries to which the U.S. has suspended military assistance after they failed to sign agreements giving Americans immunity from prosecution before the International Criminal Court.

Bush is the first American President to ignore the Geneva Convention on warfare (by refusing to allow inspectors access to U.S. held prisoners of war)
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Old October 31st, 2004, 01:31 PM   #8
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US National Debt (as of 10/28/04) :


10/28/2004 $7,429,946,398,746.85

Courtesy: http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm


That is 7 Trillion, not Quadrillion.

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Quote:
That in the fiscal year of 2001 there was a $127 billion dollar budget surplus when Bush came into power there is now a $374 Billion dollar budget deficit in the fiscal year of 2003? The biggest deficit in US history!!
Considering that FY 2001 started in October, 2000 which, as I recall, was a month before Bush was elected President. Also, considering the fact that the "grossly" over-inflated internet bubble was collapsing and internet-based companies were imploding. daily (the downward process started during the previous administration, by the way); considering that tax cuts were passed which lifted all boats (marriage penalty eliminated, child tax credit increased); defense outlays increased due to 9/11 attacks and ensuing "wars", it is not surprising that the deficits went up.


(See above re: the internet bubble collapse)
Quote:
The biggest two year point drop in the history of the stock market during the first half of a presidential term

Quote:
$116,000 – Amount Vice President Dick Cheney is expected to save each year in taxes.
WHO CARES !!!!

If he is entitled to it then, more power to him. You see, I'm NOT envious of that; it matters to me, not one little bit. What some people seem to forget is that tax cuts are only for those that actually PAY taxes. Those that don't have already been getting a free ride (oh, and I'm sure to hear about this - about how many rich people don't pay taxes. Have their tax returns been examined? Chances are that if they have invested money (in the economy) and if that investment has shown a loss, that can offset their tax liability.


Quote:
The most residential real-estate foreclosures in a one – quarter period

No sympathy, here, either. People need to learn to live within their means. In other words, take responsibility. Now, if there are extenuating circumstance such as job loss, death of a spouse, etc., that I can understand. (I'm not totally heartless). But, I am d*mned sick and tired of hearing how people who can't read or write, add or subtract, suddenly buy houses, cars, take vacations, put it all on WAY TOO EASY CREDIT, and then, ...... blame the government because they can't make even the minimum payment.
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Old October 31st, 2004, 03:39 PM   #9
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Rowan wrote
Quote:
Violence in not the solution, it only breeds more violence the proof being that you have but to look at your own reactions to 9/11 all of you are so angry you want nothing but revenge and to do more violence. You don't think Iraqis and Afghanis are not feeling the same way? When and where does it end?
I think you misinterpeted my post:
I whole heartly argree with you Rowan , Violence is not the answer the the problem , as to my reaction to Sep 11 ' I am not angry or revenge . I was horrofied that was all I was saying, Who could forget seeing the twin towers go up in flame and I have nothing but the most heartfelt pity for the children of Iraq and their parents who must live in fear for the very lives on a daily bases

Quote:
Potemkin for much of the world it has been such a place for centuries this is all very new for the USA, to experience it on their soil. I grew up with the FLQ in Quebec acts of Terrorism in my own country by my own countrymen. I worried about walking down the street as a 9 year old wondering if the next unattended bag was a bomb or if the postal box was going to blow up.
Rowan with all due respect I am aware of the worlds failings and also of the FLQ
.and yes the USA have never really suffered anything like the Twin Towers before
unless you say pearl harbour . But I have also live in a country where acts of Terrorism have killed where it have effect many of the people in my home and my family in the past , and as I live in Ireland and have see people being bombed on shot on a daily bases by both sides of the conflict.
I personly hate war and Violence in any form to any man , woman or child and I also belive that the war in Iraq should never have happend as it did.

And as for bush I hope he loses .

But I would never subscribe to Violence

Regard' Potemkin
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Old November 1st, 2004, 03:27 AM   #10
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well tommorrow I cast my vote and don't worry about who I am picking as I did my civic duty!
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Old November 1st, 2004, 10:03 AM   #11
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I have heard many Irish engage in foolish diatribes about "you Americans, we live in a war zone all the time."
Frankly, those claims do not have any credence with me. We have violence here, sometimes political, sometimes psychotic.
The difference is, rather than killing because of Protestant/Catholic differences, or wheter the Brits protect the Protestants in N.I., or blowing things up because one is somehow pissed off that they have to see English language signs (hey, are we coming to an "understanding" of the terroist motives yet?), we kill with the organized military both in retaliation, and to pre-empt threats.
Our motive is self-preservation.

The notion that violence doesn't solve anything does not hold true. Violence has decisively settled more disputes throughout history than any other method.

And regarding the resentment of Americans that this will cause, perhaps this is why there are so many German and Japanese terroist striking out in revenge of their war dead from WW2. Are the Koreans and Vietnamese still striking out at us for multi-generational vengance?

As for the broadside that America isn't socialist enough, face it, socialist tendancies are a very recent phenomena in political history.
Cave men did not freeze because the government didn't help them pay their heating bill.
It amazes me that those who claim to love nature so much, and work to leave so much of it untouched try so hard to insert artificial, man-made social constructs in to a society.
Here in the states, if you go back a few years and chart the cost of an overnight hospital stay, it goes up rather sharply once the government started paying for health care back in the 50s. The involvment of government paying for health care is in fact the core cause of the inflation of its price. The government could radically reduce the asking price of health services overnight by immediately eliminating any federal dollars going to pay for anyone's health care.

The first practicioner of Reaganomics here was that bastion of conservative thought J.F. Kennedy. Do we hear any horror stories of the tragic consequences of his tax cut program?
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Old November 1st, 2004, 11:29 AM   #12
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This is an excellent tribute.

Warhammer, shame on you. You cheapen the message of the entire piece by tying it to a political contest. This is *not* what the election is about. Saying so only encourages divisiveness. This is about something far greater than any party, any election. It is about all Americans, and ultimately, the ability of all people to stand together and choose the path of light, not to divide and compete.

This is about life, not politics. Never forget *that*. 'Staying the course' must include all, or it ultimately includes none.
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Old November 1st, 2004, 11:37 AM   #13
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Like I said before, when I cast my vote tommorrow for the first time I am making my voice be heard and no matter what who I choose is my view and no one can take my decision from me! I vote tommorrow with a clear mind!

No one should try to sway people to vote the way they want them to! That is why we have freedom of choice!
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Old November 1st, 2004, 12:58 PM   #14
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This thread shouldn't have turned into a Bush good-Bush bad debate, anyway. You don't stand on someone's grave and agrue about who put them there.
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Old November 1st, 2004, 04:28 PM   #15
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Michele,

You're right.......partially.

In advance of my comments, I do extend apologies for my, above, "list" responses. They were inappropriate (and I should have known better).

Now, the reason that I say "partially" is that for some, the election IS about 'security', 'what happened on 9/11' and the determination to NOT let it happen again. The candidates espouse their viewpoints regarding this and surprisingly, on a number of points, are in agreement. There are differences, though.

Regarding the memorial piece, my personal feeling is that it was created as a memorial to those who fell on 9/11 AND also as a reminder of the events of that terrible day. What a person takes, from that reminder, is neither right nor wrong. How a person learns and grows, from the terrible lesson learned that day is very important. It can have a great determination on the "tribute" we, survivors, bestow upon those who died. To take concrete steps, to ensure that it never happens again, is in my humble opinion, the greatest tribute of all.
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Old November 1st, 2004, 05:16 PM   #16
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Yes. The danger I see in an approach which links the tradgedy and it's resolution directly with the election is that it does many, many people a grave disservice by the blanket implication that "Our party can keep us safe, yours can't". Something I'm sure has been stated by both parties, but that doesn't mean I don't cringe when I hear it.

The loss of life of peoples of many nations, the causitive factors and the reprecussions are things that everyone will have to help address in their own ways. I just feel, myself, that the tendency I have seen to use the incident for scaremongerig is reprehensible.

I actually had some exception to the video itself, in a way. I appreciated the images, but the statements of "this could ahve been your mother, sister, this could be you' etc... are out of line. They were someone's mother, sister, self. I don't need to be personally threatened or harmed to feel the pain of another. I don't need to be chivvied into makign a decision by fear of such disaster. I think the people in hte video deserve more respect than to be used as human warnings. Using such images as an inducement to fear or a motivation to make a partisan decision smacks of profiting off another's suffering, to me. Not that his was the express intent of the video. I simply observe teh plausible chain of fear- reaction- fear of change which is possible.
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Old November 1st, 2004, 05:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micheleh
I actually had some exception to the video itself, in a way. I appreciated the images, but the statements of "this could ahve been your mother, sister, this could be you' etc... are out of line. They were someone's mother, sister, self. I don't need to be personally threatened or harmed to feel the pain of another. I don't need to be chivvied into makign a decision by fear of such disaster. I think the people in hte video deserve more respect than to be used as human warnings. Using such images as an inducement to fear or a motivation to make a partisan decision smacks of profiting off another's suffering, to me.
I can appreciate that. My thought is that their intent to "personify" it for the viewer, i.e., having us step back and think that it could be someone we know, instead of the "someone else" (to whom bad things always happen), may have crossed the line. It would be very easy to interpret it that way.
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Old November 1st, 2004, 05:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micheleh
This is an excellent tribute.

Warhammer, shame on you. You cheapen the message of the entire piece by tying it to a political contest. This is *not* what the election is about. Saying so only encourages divisiveness. This is about something far greater than any party, any election. It is about all Americans, and ultimately, the ability of all people to stand together and choose the path of light, not to divide and compete.

This is about life, not politics. Never forget *that*. 'Staying the course' must include all, or it ultimately includes none.
That was not my intent. I do, however, accept 100% of the blame for a poor title choice.

I do believe, however, that every American who goes to the polls tomorrow should do so with these images and the horror they represent fresh in their minds and vote for which ever candidate they feel will do the best job to prevent something like this from happening to this nation, or any other on the face of this planet, ever again.
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Old November 1st, 2004, 05:45 PM   #19
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Thanks, and I'm sorry for sounding harsh. I shouldn't have said you, I should have said those who will make partisan hay over a tradgedy.
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Old November 1st, 2004, 05:49 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micheleh
Thanks, and I'm sorry for sounding harsh. I shouldn't have said you, I should have said those who will make partisan hay over a tradgedy.
No problem. I worried about that title after I wrote it but couldn't come up with anything else at the time.
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Old November 1st, 2004, 06:53 PM   #21
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I just wish the Canadians would pay as much attention to their own countries politics as they do to ours. :roll: They've benefited a lot from their lower dollar and our companies shifting work to their countrymen.

It was poor taste to quote slanted stats on a thread that started with that vid. clip that was meant as a reminder of a tragedy. You lost some countrymen too, that day, as I recall. Something like 80 countries were represented in the list of those killed that day.

I don't know that the video will sway anyone's voting decision one way or another, but I do think people will vote their conscience as to which leader they think will be the stronger one for the next 4 years.
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Old November 1st, 2004, 08:19 PM   #22
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I'd like to chime in here....

I know that I'm not the most politically savvy person here, but all things aside, I watched the video at the link provided. My first reaction was "Don't forget?" How the hell are we supposed to forget that day...? I don't think that anyone could if they tried. Even if we didn't know someone that died or a family that lost someone, I don't need a video using 3 year old images to remind me what it felt like. I also don't feel that the video should have a bearing on what the voters vote for (or who). I think that message should be sent to the powers that be in this country. It's their complacency and lack of responsive action that allow such a tragedy to occur. (Don't bother to tear that comment apart, it's my own personal opinion - that's all I'm saying about that).

While it is true that the American people have the power to vote, once that person (or persons) are in office, it's pretty much out of our hands until the next 4 years are up. For those that feel if we have either a Democrat or Republican president is the only ticket to keep this country afloat, you might forget the fact that no matter who's in office, there is plenty of whining going on until the next term. When things are good, the current administration takes credit and when it sucks, it's always due to the lack of action of the prior administration. I've never seen that change.

Using the events of 9/11 as a rallying cry to vote for this person or that person.......pretty low in my book.

Sincerely,
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Old November 2nd, 2004, 12:51 AM   #23
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I shall be staying the course as well.
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Old November 2nd, 2004, 01:48 AM   #24
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Quote:
I have heard many Irish engage in foolish diatribes about "you Americans, we live in a war zone all the time."

So have I, I have heard that all of my life and those who say it are themselves are members with either the IRA or whatever they wish to call themselves. But I as an Irish man call it Terrorism not war and there are many like me who feel that way.
All the people and I know, and I mean all of them (Irish) consider any attack on Civilian’s as an act of terrorism and not and act of war.
Moreover, any Irishman or women claiming it to be a war are them-selves as you say "Foolish".

Quote:
we kill with the organized military both in retaliation, and to pre-empt threats. Our motive is self-preservation.
Yes the US government under Bush does indeed do that, the problem is the the War in Iraq was without UN Sanction. That is something that concerned the world at large as the United States of America is one of the founding countries after the second world war .(Joined "United States of America -- (24 Oct. 1945)" ).

and the charter
Quote:
"Membership in the United Nations is open to all peace-loving states which accept the obligations of the Charter and, in the judgement of the Organization, are willing and able to carry out these obligations.

The admission of any such State to membership in the United Nations will be effected by a decision of the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council."

Article 4, Chapter 2, United Nations Charter


This is what the UN stands for that is what the United States of America stands for , at lest until Bush came to power.
He has thrown out the window much of the work done in the past, by better and more able Statesmen,


Quote:
The notion that violence does not solve anything does not hold true. Violence has decisively settled more disputes throughout history than any other method.
Ofcourse it has, all you have to do is to destroy the Opposition then there are no more disputes, but is that the road you want your country to go down? Where it kills any that Disagrees with you,
There has been Violence in the North of Ireland between the Different sides for 30 years and it has solved nothing.


When I wrote my responce at the begining of the thread I was just expresing my support to my friend's who are still hurting and suffering after 9.11 , nothing more.

I miss understood Rowan message and have apologized for that .

I was not jumping on my bandwagon crying out about poor little Ireland we have had a war for years and you can and don't understand etc etc
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Old November 2nd, 2004, 05:05 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warhammerdriver
http://members.cox.net/classicweb/Heroes/heroes.htm

This is what the election is all about this time, IMHO.
It sure is. Thanks for the reminder.
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