Some Personal Thoughts

[Fragmentary]

Nextceo,
Gemini1999 is right. That was a great post. Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts down.

[Eric Paddon]

I think this discussion has been very interesting and productive on a lot of levels. If my post succeeded in doing that, then I for one am quite grateful.

However, I am quite disappointed in some of the remarks you make, Antelope, that do not indicate to me at least, a good faith willingness to have a true dialogue in the way that I see TNS fans like Rigel and nextceo doing.

"Again you reference Moore and not the product. Ron Moore doesn't know you, me or anyone else here personally unless you are his friend, neighbor, or coworker. You hate a human being because he earns his living by making a television show you don't like."

This is just ridiculous. Have you heard me express a wish that Ron Moore get run over by a car, or heard me say that Ron Moore should burn in Hell for this? That's my definition of what constitutes hate. This is all about my judgment on his specific acts and deeds with regard to an end=product called "Battlestar Galactica" and those are fair game for judgment as the actions of anyone else with regard to any particular thing in life. I don't have a high opinion of Moore because of what he's said and done with regard to this, but let's not confuse that with "hate" because those kinds of words get back to the point I made in my initial post about why my frustration over recent events also is due to the fact that the word "hate" is being recklessly applied in some quarters to those who are still upset over what's gone on.

"You have read all the things I have over the past year or so. I don't need to repost them. You are not new here. If you want to ignore every post or article related to Moore reaching out to angry members of the TOS fan base I am not going to change your mind today."

Antelope, this is not a matter of my "ignorning" anything. When you or someone else posts what you regard as evidence of Moore reaching out, I at least try to address that specific matter and explain why I do not feel it can be so construed that way. And if I'm to judge those things fairly, I have to take into account as well the things that I don't see you doing. I have seen you for instance talk about how the new Starbuck is clearly meant to be Sheba but that's a hard comment to reconcile in light of the fact that Moore admitted he watched nothing but the cut-down pilot in terms of preparing this show. And it's looking at that totality of the picture that I feel you're not doing in this instance.

"Yes, it is about a television show. You may believe it is about more than a television show but I am pretty sure no one employed in the production of TOS, BG80, or TNS ever had any illusions that they were doing anything other than working on a television show."

Antelope, what has that got to do with the issue? This is about what we as a fanbase have latched onto for many years, and this is also about having to overcome a lot of obstacles put in our way over the years with false information about TOS as "ratings flop", "cheesy", and "Star Wars ripoff", only to see years of patience rendered null and void by reimagining the property in a way that I'm sorry to say is of a vision more in synch with the ideas of those who ripped and bashed TOS from the get-go and haven't let up all these years later.

"Finally: Nothing Ron Moore or anyone else has or will do will ever destroy one episode of TOS. "

No, just diminish their importance and allow such epithets as "cheesy rip-off" to become an ingrained truth about TOS in order to justify their campaign to declare TNS as the perfect telling of this story. And fighting that perception for the last 20 years is one thing I've tried to do as a Galactica fan, and it doesn't sit well to see in so many non-Galactica outlets a neverending tone that wants to reinforce the phony conventional wisdom about TOS.

Also, Antelope, regarding your hostility to what I called the "disinformation campaign" in the initial post, it might help if you just explain what sort of positive spin I'm supposed to take out of three men proclaiming (1) that TOS never had a syndication package (2) that Galactica endured only as a name for 20 years thanks only to Universal's PR department and (3) the smug cackling Moore engaged in over how not reaching out to TOS fanbase helped more ultimately? It doesn't help when you dismiss all of that with a generalized post of indignation over being critical of Moore and company without addressing any of the specifics.

1. Hate the sin not the sinner.

2. I agree with Nextceo.

3. I don't subscribe to the view this thread started under a similar thread of feeling. Reread the initial post. Moore dancing on the grave of TOS is not my original thought it comes from the first post.

4. I only jump into these threads nowadays when PEOPLE are getting attacked as we are well beyond changing anyones view of the shows. I did the same thing in Sandy's defense at Ragnar Anchorage and got a similar beating. That's why I am fond of saying both sides have people who are on opposite sides but on the same coin.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Antelope

3. I don't subscribe to the view this thread started under a similar thread of feeling. Reread the initial post. Moore dancing on the grave of TOS is not my original thought it comes from the first post.

Why does he, the one that wrote the thing to start with, need to re-read what started the thread?

I'm quite certain, since he's the one that posted it, that he knows what he meant

Originally Posted by Antelope

4. I only jump into these threads nowadays when PEOPLE are getting attacked as we are well beyond changing anyones view of the shows. I did the same thing in Sandy's defense at Ragnar Anchorage and got a similar beating. That's why I am fond of saying both sides have people who are on opposite sides but on the same coin.

The only one I've seen in this thread attacking people is you in regards to their opinions.

[Eric Paddon]

"I don't subscribe to the view this thread started under a similar thread of feeling. Reread the initial post. Moore dancing on the grave of TOS is not my original thought it comes from the first post."

I made that remark for a specific reason regarding the specific actions of Moore, Eick and the director on the DVD. You can address the specifics of what they said to explain why such a characterization is not accurate and try to make the case for that, but kindly refrain from lumping me in the category of spreading "hate" for an indvidual because that is not only inaccurate, it also validates as I said the original point I made as to why people like myself get frustrated because we sense we're being falsely stigmitized with epithets about spreading "hate" that are not justified.

Of course if you had really bothered to read the full post, Antelope, you would have discovered that most of it was not aimed at reciting a laundry list of what Moore had done to offend me as a TOS fan, it was aimed at describing a general state of mind among those who feel as I do. I find it disappointing to see you mischaracterize it for the sake of trying to show your total devotion to Ron Moore on everything as a man above all forms of criticism.

[Dawg]

Actually, my 'anti-Moore rant' above was a backhanded complement to the man. He got what he wanted by deliberately setting himself up as a target. And what he wanted was talk. It didn't matter if it was angry talk, or anything else. It was talk.

And I wasn't commenting about the equally-deserved "Broomstick Bonnie" diatribes of the past.

But I do apologize because that is not the topic of this thread.

I find myself in a curious place right now. I am not a religious man. Nor am I puritanical in the least. So from my personal perspectives, I wouldn't terribly care what religion is portrayed or how much skin is shown on screen - or how often or how graphic the sexual interludes are portrayed.

I am also a fan of 'realistic' TV. Note the quotes, please - no real situation is going to get resolved in an hour, but I've enjoyed CSI, ER, etc. I also enjoy many of the medical shows on TLC that get quite graphic.

But when we're talking about Battlestar Galactica.....

It troubles me that the Colonials in this new version are portrayed as giving their religion haphazard attention. It bothers me that it is a polytheistic belief. It bothers me that it's the enemy of man who bears the devotion to a single God.

In the original, they are led by a warrior/priest in Adama. They followed one God and, during the course of the series, asked for and recieved the guidance of 'saints and angels' - the Lords of Kobol and 'beings of light'. Adama was strong, truthful; when he was asked if he knew where Earth was, he said 'no', but he did so in such a way that he inspired those who followed him to keep to his path. These Colonials have strong roots in their past, both as faith and as history.

The new - well, the Colonials are supposed to be us. But rather than give them the strong faith that many of us have and was depicted in the original, they have been portrayed so far as spiritually weak, the worshippers (when they worship) of multiple gods - the Lords of Kobol.

The new Cylons, though, claim to be doing the will of a single God - they are the real-world's Al-Qaida and other extremist terrorists.

And please, please don't try to tell me that I've got this wrong. Moore himself has said the inspiration for these was 9/11 and the War on Terror - and the depictions are typical of the 'got what we deserved' mentality of propogandist Michael Moore and his ilk. There are too many blatant, in-your-face indicators for there to be any debate about who these people are supposed to be.

Where he takes it remains to be seen, however.

Then there are the characters. No resemblance whatsoever to any of the characters of the original. Don't give me any crap about composits from other movies or whatnot - When I see Battlestar Galactica on the marquee I expect to see characters from Battlestar Galactica - including a guy named Starbuck who is a flirt and a cigar smoker. There is no such character on this new show.

The same for the rest of them. They do not resemble their namesakes from 1978 in any way.

So, while my approach to Battlestar Galactica is from a different perspective than Eric's, I find myself in complete agreement with him on the subject.

So if you want to give Moore a pass on his behavior, that's not unexpected - that's today's society, where nobody is held accountable for hurtful behavior. I realize he behaved that way for a specific purpose, but he hurt a lot of people in the process. But since we got the renewal, I guess all is forgiven.

Anyway, that's all I have to say on the subject.

I am
Dawg

Eric:

You still blame Ron Moore personally for what he did to you. Spin your words that's the bottomline.

Ron Moore doesn't know who you are and didn't do anything to you.

TOS is not a living being. No one can harm it.

Last I heard no one who post here receives hate mail or death threats. That's something some involved in the production of TNS can't say.

Good luck, this is it for me on this thread.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Just to let ya know, Antelope, your assumptions are wrong.

I *have* received hate mail and death threats before regarding nuBG, back when I was webmaster of Richard's websites.

I also have met Moore a couple of times, so I do know him and he does know me in person.

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by Antelope

Ron Moore doesn't know who you are and didn't do anything to you.

To me, that's like saying Art Modell did nothing to the fans of Cleveland when he took the Browns out despite 40 years of the most loyal fans you could have asked for, or when Walter O'Malley did the same to the people of Brooklyn when he took the Dodgers to Los Angeles. The principle is the same from my perspective.

Originally Posted by Antelope

Last I heard no one who post here receives hate mail or death threats. That's something some involved in the production of TNS can't say.

So what? Are any of us here at this board sending Moore death threats? And just to stick to my sports analogy, Art Modell can never set foot in Cleveland again or else he's liable to get lynched, and that's unfortunate and I condemn every person who sent him a death threat, but to me Art Modell is still a bum who stabbed the fans of Cleveland in the back. In the same vein, I condemn every person who ever sent Moore a death threat as a sick bum in need of help, but that can't be used as a crutch to exempt the man from what's meant to be reasonably expressed criticism as best as can be done.

[Eric Paddon]

Incidentally, to Nextceo, you made a very good post that I applaud and which I will address later when I have more time. Sorry this volley with Antelope has distracted me from doing that.

[nextceo]

I think while RDM drew inspiration from current events as he has so noted in the past, I don't think he is trying to totally duplicate current situations, simply extrapolate on them for us to look at our current situation and ask questions. Yes the Cylons have an Al Qaida parallel, and the colonials, many of whom are pretty wishy washy on their religious beleifs. I think that actually does typify a lot of the western world. Especially Europe, which is very wishy washy spritually and this is beginning to be prevalent in the U.S. as well. Most people I know are wishy washy spiritually, they call themselves Christians or spiritual, but they often don't practice. There are a number of people I know who are strong in faith, but they are becoming the exception rather than the norm, as you see with the colonials. So I can see the parallel. This is something as a culture we must look out for, remembering what we are fighting for, because our enemies beleive they are driven by God to do whatever is necessary to erradicate our way of life. We as a western civilization need to wake up and smell the coffee of the enemies we are faced with and to what lengths they will go to destroy us. The U.S. by a bare majority I beleive understands this, but much of the rest of the west does not. I do like how after Leoben's death Starbuck did pray for him and went back to something she didn't really practice much... Will the colonials turn back to religion and prophecy? Only time will tell...

[nextceo]

Thanks Eric, I appreciate your comments. Mushies all around! I'm buying!

[nextceo]

I can also understand peoples dislike for the colonial polythiestic faith... I beleive and have seen RDM state that his reason for giving the colonials that faith was for writing opportunities and to more drastically differentiate the differences between the Cylons and Colonials.

[mocha2112]

Originally Posted by nextceo

I think while RDM drew inspiration from current events as he has so noted in the past, I don't think he is trying to totally duplicate current situations, simply extrapolate on them for us to look at our current situation and ask questions. Yes the Cylons have an Al Qaida parallel, and the colonials, many of whom are pretty wishy washy on their religious beleifs. I think that actually does typify a lot of the western world. Especially Europe, which is very wishy washy spritually and this is beginning to be prevalent in the U.S. as well. Most people I know are wishy washy spiritually, they call themselves Christians or spiritual, but they often don't practice. There are a number of people I know who are strong in faith, but they are becoming the exception rather than the norm, as you see with the colonials. So I can see the parallel. This is something as a culture we must look out for, remembering what we are fighting for, because our enemies beleive they are driven by God to do whatever is necessary to erradicate our way of life. We as a western civilization need to wake up and smell the coffee of the enemies we are faced with and to what lengths they will go to destroy us. The U.S. by a bare majority I beleive understands this, but much of the rest of the west does not. I do like how after Leoben's death Starbuck did pray for him and went back to something she didn't really practice much... Will the colonials turn back to religion and prophecy? Only time will tell...

With all due respect -

If I wanted to watch a show about "us", that is 21st century Earth, I'd watch a show NOT called "Battlestar Galactica". I'd watch "ER" or "CSI" or a dumb "reality" show. But when I watched TOS, there was a sense that these people were really far away and had technology I didn't and could fly through space in vipers yet somehow weren't all that different from me/us. Even though they had dumb words for the different intervals of time, you knew want they meant. And first seeing the characters in a good light, then showing some flaws made me care more for them. It was more fun.

TNS looks like America, feels like America, same political structure ( I swear if they do an episode where the Presidential Election needs a recount, I'll scream ), people wear ties like American business men - it's just TOO much like today. This show doesn't need to be told in outer space, it could be told anywhere in North America. It's just not "out there" enough. And since, to me, all of the characters are basically dysfunctional, it's hard to like any of them. Maybe it's a character flaw in me, but I kind of need a reason to like a character first, then I can sympathize with his or her short comings. In the mini, all we got was their short comings. Geeze, even the ship's doctor is mean, smoking in front of a cancer patient. (Episode 4?) That's not funny, that's mean. Isn't there one single nice person left alive out of the 50,000? If not, then I'm rooting for the Cylons.

I'm with those who say Ron and company haven't been especially kind to TOS fans. But I also feel he doesn't give a s*&% either. That's does hurt. And yet, I do go and read the blog and listen to the commentaries - although it's gotten to the point where I can only listen and read about episodes I actually liked. I can't stand to hear him pat himself on the back for things in an episode that just didn't work for me. And there's even a small piece of me that would like to see TNS fail, and yet I still watch. Explain that one to me, folks.

thanks for you time....

Originally Posted by Warrior

Just to let ya know, Antelope, your assumptions are wrong.

I *have* received hate mail and death threats before regarding nuBG, back when I was webmaster of Richard's websites.

I also have met Moore a couple of times, so I do know him and he does know me in person.

As mentioned before the jackasses that do those things are on both sides.

Were the death threats to Richard (and/or you) before and/or after he went on the TNS bandwagon? Were they from TOS only, TNS only fans, or both? I saw Richard take a lot of heat when he buried the hatchet.

Warrior: I never said you disparage Moore personally. I would have to recheck your post. The post that did initiate this thread did as well as others however.

There's a big difference between saying a show sucks as opposed to the creator is an evil arrogant SOB. If people can't see the difference, what can I say. Live in lala land.

Do you think Moore dances on the grave of TOS? If you don't why support this kind of feldergarb. You met the man and Richard works with him. Is he an arrogant SOB that lives to destroy TOS and its fans or is he just a man earning his living in Hollywood? You can't play it both ways.

[BST]

Originally Posted by Antelope

Do you think Moore dances on the grave of TOS?

Yes. When all is said and done, he wants his rendition of Battlestar Galactica to be just that, "Battlestar Galactica", without qualification. He will do whatever is needed to achieve that goal.

[jewels]

Originally Posted by kingfish

Duh. What network executive is going to put a cartoon/anime on in primetime?

Fox: Simpsons, Family Man, South Park (?)

Cartoon network. Actually soon to be calling themselves "Adult Swim" in the evening. (sorry if someone else answered already. Been busy.

Disney channel occaisionally runs it's animated features at night.

[Eric Paddon]

Antelope, you are once again staking out a position that Ron Moore is exempt from all forms of criticism. And you are also once again deliberately mischaracterizing the initial post of this thread when you suggest it was solely about Ron Moore. Rigel and Nexceo are two TNS fans who understand what it was about, so it shouldn't be impossible for you to understand it as well.

[Fragmentary]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

Also, Antelope, regarding your hostility to what I called the "disinformation campaign" in the initial post, it might help if you just explain what sort of positive spin I'm supposed to take out of three men proclaiming (1) that TOS never had a syndication package (2) that Galactica endured only as a name for 20 years thanks only to Universal's PR department and (3) the smug cackling Moore engaged in over how not reaching out to TOS fanbase helped more ultimately? It doesn't help when you dismiss all of that with a generalized post of indignation over being critical of Moore and company without addressing any of the specifics.

When exactly did any of them say that there was not a syndication package? I’ve never read this quote. 2. It has endured in the general consciousness for that exact reason. They (Universal’s PR) have been able to insert it into commercials, reference it in TV shows and through deals with comics, books, and syndication outlets, they’ve kept it alive for the average person. Fans can pat themselves on the back all they want, but fanzines and a handful of websites in the early days of the internet did NOT keep the show alive for 25 years. 3. Olsmos’ comments did in fact generate more buzz in the media than any of Moore’s nice overtures did. So he’s actually very right about that.

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

Of course if you had really bothered to read the full post, Antelope, you would have discovered that most of it was not aimed at reciting a laundry list of what Moore had done to offend me as a TOS fan, it was aimed at describing a general state of mind among those who feel as I do. I find it disappointing to see you mischaracterize it for the sake of trying to show your total devotion to Ron Moore on everything as a man above all forms of criticism.

Now, who’s criticizing someone for their opinion? And whether or not your initial post contained direct criticisms of the man instead of the show, that was 3 pages ago and you have most certainly done so since then.

Originally Posted by Dawg

So if you want to give Moore a pass on his behavior, that's not unexpected - that's today's society, where nobody is held accountable for hurtful behavior. I realize he behaved that way for a specific purpose, but he hurt a lot of people in the process. But since we got the renewal, I guess all is forgiven.

What?
I don’t have to give Moore a pass for anything. So far, no one has been able to show me anything that he’s said that needs to be apologized for. His open letter about the show, his commentary for the DVD and his blogs for the current season contain nothing that attacks the fan base or is spiteful toward the old show. Clearly, Eric takes it differently, but I don’t agree with his interpretations at all. If Moore has said things prior to this like Warrior claims, then by all means show me the quotes and a reliable source.
If people’s feeling were hurt because he didn’t make the show they wanted, that’s tough, but he wasn’t hired to make the show that internet fans wanted, so he didn’t do anything wrong. He did what he was hired to do.
Comments like this one and Eric’s crack about Moore not having earned an “ethical right” to re-imagine the show just smack of so much righteous indignation.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Antelope

Were the death threats to Richard (and/or you) before and/or after he went on the TNS bandwagon? Were they from TOS only, TNS only fans, or both? I saw Richard take a lot of heat when he buried the hatchet.

Re-read my post. Did I say Richard, or did I say me?

Originally Posted by Antelope

You met the man and Richard works with him. Is he an arrogant SOB that lives to destroy TOS and its fans or is he just a man earning his living in Hollywood? You can't play it both ways.

...ummm Yes, he plays it both ways. He is egotistical and is a man earning a living in Hollywood.

Mind you, when you want to hear what you want to hear, the go thing can go either way.

I am sure there are nuBG fans that have talked to him and will say he's not egotistical or arrogant, while there are other people that have talked to him that come away with an entirely different view.

To me personally, in the times I did talk to him, he came across as egotistical.

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by Fragmentary

When exactly did any of them say that there was not a syndication package? I’ve never read this quote.

You couldn't have read it, because as I said several times, it was in the DVD commentary.

Originally Posted by Fragmentary

2. It has endured in the general consciousness for that exact reason.

No it has not. The endurance of a one-season television show's popularity after 20 plus years has to do with its fanbase, and the loyalty of that fanbase. Universal would not have found it worth referencing to begin with were it not for the acknowledgment that there is such a fanbase to begin with. The credit belongs to that fanbase, and for those three men to suggest it's only been smart marketing without mentioning that fanbase is something I can only call another slap at the group they have little regard for.

Originally Posted by Fragmentary

3. Olsmos’ comments did in fact generate more buzz in the media than any of Moore’s nice overtures did. So he’s actually very right about that.

That isn't the point. The point had to do with the smug cackling from Moore and company as they just about took delight in noting that not cooperating with the fans brought them more publicity than they could have imagined.

Originally Posted by Fragmentary

So far, no one has been able to show me anything that he’s said that needs to be apologized for.

So in other words, Ron Moore's conduct has been a flawless model of perfect respect demonstrated toward TOS and its fanbase?

Originally Posted by Fragmentary

If people’s feeling were hurt because he didn’t make the show they wanted, that’s tough, but he wasn’t hired to make the show that internet fans wanted, so he didn’t do anything wrong.

First off, I'd be careful about characterizing those who wanted a continuation for the last 25 years as just a group of "internet fans" and second, I would also note that Ron Moore's own words on that DVD commentary render null and void the argument you're making that Sci-Fi hired him to do a reinvention. He has said that was all his doing. So I think it's time we put this idea of Moore just hired to fulfill a specific mandate from Sci-Fi to rest.

Originally Posted by Fragmentary

Comments like this one and Eric’s crack about Moore not having earned an “ethical right” to re-imagine the show just smack of so much righteous indignation.

I already explained the analogous situation to that in professional sports where Moore's behavior is a perfect parallel. And to this date, no one blames the fans of Cleveland for having righteous indignation toward Art Modell (not even the Balitmore fans) or has suggested there's illegitimacy toward holding such views.

[Eric Paddon]

And now, as I promised before, my response to Nextceo.

Originally Posted by nextceo

I really no longer feel the need to try and change the opinions of those who dislike TNS, because I understand those feelings aren't going to change. I do however feel the need to defend the show when I feel that people are attacking it simply out of hate and not for artistic reasons.

I put myself in the category of those who think one can criticize something that suffers from no flaws in execution, like acting, writing etc. and still find cause to be critical of it on general, philosopical grounds. I feel that fairness requires I not comment on what happens in individual episodes that I have not seen or in what directions TNS is going in. Because ultimately, for one like myself, it isn't relevant what happens in TNS' storyline because the damage has already been done in terms of what does TNS represent and stand for in terms of a philosophical-religious-political perspective on things. That's one thing that I don't think ever can fundamentally change no matter what happens in TNS so that's why ultimately I prefer to confine myself solely to the issue of why TNS is objectionable to me on those grounds and why those particular grounds cut very deep for one like myself who thinks that what's happening is that in reinventing Galactica by changing the philosophical-religious perspective, I'm once again seeing a case of a particular Hollywood attitude rubbing itself in my face again in ways that it's been done in the past on things other than Galactica. For me, this is not simply about what's been done to an entity called "Battlestar Galactica" it's my frustration over seeing a Hollywood attitude of shoving a particular agenda at me once again, and this time it's being done on something I used to always see as standing proud and alone against the prevailing conventional wisdom of secular Hollywood attitudes typical in most science-fiction.

Maybe if I felt there was a tradition of greater political and philosophic diversity in science fiction television, in which Galactica was not the only series that embodied a philosophy that a conservative Christian like myself could enjoy, it'd be easier to come to terms with this. I'd have a few more fallback options available in this genre, but unfortunately I don't and never have. Galactica's been all alone in that regard, and now that's been taken. Dawg I think is absolutely right when he says that TNS caters more to the tastes of those who came away enjoying "Fahrenheit 9/11" whereas TOS caters more to the tastes of those who voted the other way (I recognize that there can be a danger in oversimplifying this, because certainly there are fans on both sides of the aisle politically for both, but I think it can be generally conceded that TOS leans more conservative in a lot of things than do other shows of the day, and certainly more so than TNS).

Originally Posted by nextceo

This is why I just wish the attacking would stop. Look we don't all have to be fanboys and can disagree on content, but some of the hatred that is spewed is difficult for us to take who love the show. .

I'd like to see it stop too, but I think a lot of that could be guaranteed with a simple change in attitude and approach from the people responsible for TNS. The DVD commentary was something I didn't want to listen to, but I felt I had to because I really wanted to look for something I could come away with thinking was an olive branch to TOS fanbase and give me cause to overcome the anger I've felt these many months. And sadly, I heard nothing to come away with and only ended up with the feeling that Ron Moore is determined to marginalize the legacy of TOS into some badly made end-product of a bygone era.

Originally Posted by nextceo

As an artist he wanted to create something that he personally identifies with and suits what he feels can be successful. He did not have a desire to to a continuation. Nuff said. Right or wrong that was his decision.

I still feel though, nextceo, that that raises a serious ethical question, and I say that not as a mere fan, but as a writer myself who over the last decade has written some two dozen TOS fanfics as well as fanfics for other shows, and whose first obligation is always to make sure that I am violating nothing established by the creators vision of this. I've written fanfics for Columbo, and no matter how much I'd like to show the Lieutenant's wife and reveal his first name and put him in an unconventional story in a good story, I would never do that because it would violate the integrity of the show and the character. Likewise, when I write TOS fanfic I make sure that what I do follows and expands on what was given to us in the series and does not alter things to suit my own narrow perspective. If I want to "create" something I can identify with in all facets, then I at least would consider it incumbent on myself to go completely original and not rely on someone else's work as a crutch to alter the vision of what the original represented.

What you say about the character growth factor compared to TOS is one of those things I could live with and accept. I could even live with the gender switches. If you wanted to boil it down to just a few things Moore could have done that would have enabled me to accept things and move on, it would be these, and I would be interested to know if you think it wouldn't have been too much to have done these things:

1-Keep the conflict between Human and Cylon the way it was in TOS and do not fall back on an old cliche of "man's creation turning on him." All that does is bring in the "we brought this on ourselves" kind of thinking that is simply not true to TOS, because TOS offered instead a struggle of moral clarity where the enemy was ultimately revealed to be the Devil's own creation (in WOTG).

2-Keep Adama a man of faith, and just have him say truthfully "I don't know where Earth is, but I have faith we will find it." Olmos stated that the lying to give hope carries with it the very ugly subtext that the things we look to to have faith in, such as religion, are ultimately the false creations of devious men to fool the gullible. That too is not true to the spirit of TOS.

3-Keep Colonial religion monotheistic.

Had these three things been done, the problem would be 80% solved in terms of major objections from my standpoint because only then would I feel that the core was intact and everything else I didn't like would all be in the details. Do you think that if we had these three things and no other changes to what presently exists, would the alterations from what presently exists be so great?

I'll really be interested in what you have to say on this as well as what other TNS fans like Rigel might think about that. If the answer would be yes, then it would ultimately reveal how Moore only needed to compromise just a little bit.

In the meantime, thanks for writing your feelings on this subject.

[Mustex]

Originally Posted by BST

Mustex,

Interpretation of a quote is like beauty - it's in the eye of the beholder.

In other words, the quote says one thing, to you, and something completely different to someone else. Neither is "right", neither is "wrong".

And you propose it said what? "The most ambitious sci-fi show since the Twilight Zone, although others have been just as ambitious?"

[Fragmentary]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

You couldn't have read it, because as I said several times, it was in the DVD commentary.

I must have missed it. I’ll review the commentary.

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

The credit belongs to that fanbase, and for those three men to suggest it's only been smart marketing without mentioning that fanbase is something I can only call another slap at the group they have little regard for.

The fanbase has generated an intense interest within the existing fan community, and of course has perpetuated the fanbase through that. But it’s hardly large enough to support any kind of major production, whether it be the re-imagining or a continuation. I’m just suggesting that the wider audience that exists for this product does so because of the DVD releases and the reruns and the auxiliary products. Fan have worked hard sure, but they aren’t the reason that reviews of the new show can simply describe an old Cylon and readers instantly remember the existence of the original Galactica. For that to happen, those images must be refreshed in the mainstream.

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

That isn't the point. The point had to do with the smug cackling from Moore and company as they just about took delight in noting that not cooperating with the fans brought them more publicity than they could have imagined.

You’ve got admit, it is ironic.

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

So in other words, Ron Moore's conduct has been a flawless model of perfect respect demonstrated toward TOS and its fanbase?

I certainly wouldn’t say that, how could I possibly defend that position? I’m just saying that many of the things that you perceive as insulting, and others feel should be apologized for, are open to interpretation. I don’t see the implied insult in many of these things. And I have seen Moore be complimentary of fans and Hatch. In interviews and at the convention appearance I’ve seen of his, he has been very down to earth and open to hearing people’s feelings. I don’t think he’s dancing or graves or delighting in other’s misery. I think he’s doing the best that he can, and being a class act when he speaks publicly.

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

First off, I'd be careful about characterizing those who wanted a continuation for the last 25 years as just a group of "internet fans"

Fair enough. My apologizes. Didn’t mean for that to be derogatory.

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

…and second, I would also note that Ron Moore's own words on that DVD commentary render null and void the argument you're making that Sci-Fi hired him to do a reinvention. He has said that was all his doing. So I think it's time we put this idea of Moore just hired to fulfill a specific mandate from Sci-Fi to rest.

I’m aware that it was his decision to take the show in that direction. For additional clarity, at the convention he explained that he only watched the original pilot when he took the weekend to decide if he was willing to come on aboard the Galactica project. He did then watch the entire series before the writing process.

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

I already explained the analogous situation to that in professional sports where Moore's behavior is a perfect parallel. And to this date, no one blames the fans of Cleveland for having righteous indignation toward Art Modell (not even the Balitmore fans) or has suggested there's illegitimacy toward holding such views.

This analogy doesn’t mean anything to me. I just don’t know enough about this.

[Mustex]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

And now, as I promised before, my response to Nextceo.



I put myself in the category of those who think one can criticize something that suffers from no flaws in execution, like acting, writing etc. and still find cause to be critical of it on general, philosopical grounds. I feel that fairness requires I not comment on what happens in individual episodes that I have not seen or in what directions TNS is going in. Because ultimately, for one like myself, it isn't relevant what happens in TNS' storyline because the damage has already been done in terms of what does TNS represent and stand for in terms of a philosophical-religious-political perspective on things. That's one thing that I don't think ever can fundamentally change no matter what happens in TNS so that's why ultimately I prefer to confine myself solely to the issue of why TNS is objectionable to me on those grounds and why those particular grounds cut very deep for one like myself who thinks that what's happening is that in reinventing Galactica by changing the philosophical-religious perspective, I'm once again seeing a case of a particular Hollywood attitude rubbing itself in my face again in ways that it's been done in the past on things other than Galactica. For me, this is not simply about what's been done to an entity called "Battlestar Galactica" it's my frustration over seeing a Hollywood attitude of shoving a particular agenda at me once again, and this time it's being done on something I used to always see as standing proud and alone against the prevailing conventional wisdom of secular Hollywood attitudes typical in most science-fiction.

Maybe if I felt there was a tradition of greater political and philosophic diversity in science fiction television, in which Galactica was not the only series that embodied a philosophy that a conservative Christian like myself could enjoy, it'd be easier to come to terms with this. I'd have a few more fallback options available in this genre, but unfortunately I don't and never have. Galactica's been all alone in that regard, and now that's been taken. Dawg I think is absolutely right when he says that TNS caters more to the tastes of those who came away enjoying "Fahrenheit 9/11" whereas TOS caters more to the tastes of those who voted the other way (I recognize that there can be a danger in oversimplifying this, because certainly there are fans on both sides of the aisle politically for both, but I think it can be generally conceded that TOS leans more conservative in a lot of things than do other shows of the day, and certainly more so than TNS).



I'd like to see it stop too, but I think a lot of that could be guaranteed with a simple change in attitude and approach from the people responsible for TNS. The DVD commentary was something I didn't want to listen to, but I felt I had to because I really wanted to look for something I could come away with thinking was an olive branch to TOS fanbase and give me cause to overcome the anger I've felt these many months. And sadly, I heard nothing to come away with and only ended up with the feeling that Ron Moore is determined to marginalize the legacy of TOS into some badly made end-product of a bygone era.




I still feel though, nextceo, that that raises a serious ethical question, and I say that not as a mere fan, but as a writer myself who over the last decade has written some two dozen TOS fanfics as well as fanfics for other shows, and whose first obligation is always to make sure that I am violating nothing established by the creators vision of this. I've written fanfics for Columbo, and no matter how much I'd like to show the Lieutenant's wife and reveal his first name and put him in an unconventional story in a good story, I would never do that because it would violate the integrity of the show and the character. Likewise, when I write TOS fanfic I make sure that what I do follows and expands on what was given to us in the series and does not alter things to suit my own narrow perspective. If I want to "create" something I can identify with in all facets, then I at least would consider it incumbent on myself to go completely original and not rely on someone else's work as a crutch to alter the vision of what the original represented.

What you say about the character growth factor compared to TOS is one of those things I could live with and accept. I could even live with the gender switches. If you wanted to boil it down to just a few things Moore could have done that would have enabled me to accept things and move on, it would be these, and I would be interested to know if you think it wouldn't have been too much to have done these things:

1-Keep the conflict between Human and Cylon the way it was in TOS and do not fall back on an old cliche of "man's creation turning on him." All that does is bring in the "we brought this on ourselves" kind of thinking that is simply not true to TOS, because TOS offered instead a struggle of moral clarity where the enemy was ultimately revealed to be the Devil's own creation (in WOTG).

2-Keep Adama a man of faith, and just have him say truthfully "I don't know where Earth is, but I have faith we will find it." Olmos stated that the lying to give hope carries with it the very ugly subtext that the things we look to to have faith in, such as religion, are ultimately the false creations of devious men to fool the gullible. That too is not true to the spirit of TOS.

3-Keep Colonial religion monotheistic.

Had these three things been done, the problem would be 80% solved in terms of major objections from my standpoint because only then would I feel that the core was intact and everything else I didn't like would all be in the details. Do you think that if we had these three things and no other changes to what presently exists, would the alterations from what presently exists be so great?

I'll really be interested in what you have to say on this as well as what other TNS fans like Rigel might think about that. If the answer would be yes, then it would ultimately reveal how Moore only needed to compromise just a little bit.

In the meantime, thanks for writing your feelings on this subject.

BTW, Eric, you really should watch TNS before leaping to conclusions that Moore is a democrat, and hostile towards religion. There have been hints that Laura may become a prophet figure later in the show, plus many scenes of people praying.

Also, the android torture scene, while a commentary on Iraq, didn't say "Bush was wrong" so much as "War is a bad thing, but sometimes a neccessary evil." If Starbuck didn't torture the Cylon they risked the nuke he claimed to have planted going off.

However, most TOS fans seemed shocked merely by the fact that a being who allied itself against the main characters could even feel pain. [sarcasm]Oh yes, I'm sure that when we fought the Nazis in WWII to protect the free world they felt no pain. Doubtlessly none of them had wives that would be husbandless, or children who would be fatherless. They couldn't possibly have had any good qualities, or be people who we could relate to in any way, shape, or form. After all, they were Nazis, not human beings who we were sadly forced to kill for the sake of freedom. War is never a game of neccessary evils.[/sarcasm]

[Eric Paddon]

THe analogy has to do with the fact that in 1995, the Cleveland Browns football team, one of the most popular in the NFL, and which drew attendance of 80,000 a week through many years of frustration were one day betrayed by their owner, Art Modell, who in the dead of night moved the team to Baltimore claiming financial hardship, when what really happened was a case of greed where he wanted a sweetheart deal on a new stadium and he was able to get one quick from Baltimore. From a legal standpoint, the team was his property and he could do what he wanted to do with it with an eye toward maximizing his profit potential. From an ethical standpoint, he was wrong to not consider the interests of the loyal fans who'd supported the team for decades and saw it as something that belonged to them. Modell received death threats and can never set foot in Cleveland again, but he is still a man not many people think highly of even though the team he moved to Baltimore won a Super Bowl a few years later.

To me, this scenario has very eerie parallels with what we've seen happen with Galactica. We, the TOS fans who are still upset are the Browns fans who are upset with the man who did not consider the feelings of the fanbase that loyally supported the property through many years of tough times. The TNS fans are like the Baltimore Ravens fans who got something new to enjoy for themselves and who were rewarded in short order with a Super Bowl triumph. The difficulty we face today in terms of bridging TOS and TNS fanbases is the same that would exist for a forum comprised of Cleveland and Baltimore football fans.

Hope that explains that.

[Eric Paddon]

Mustex, your "sarcasm" about World War II is not particularly constructive for purposes of this discussion.

[BST]

Originally Posted by Mustex

And you propose it said what? "The most ambitious sci-fi show since the Twilight Zone, although others have been just as ambitious?"

Exactly what I had indicated earlier - it says something different to me than it does to you. I've watched the new show and I'm still waiting to see what was meant by the term, "ambitious".

[Mustex]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

Mustex, your "sarcasm" about World War II is not particularly constructive for purposes of this discussion.

How is it not constructive? War is a bad thing, that's all "Flesh and Bone" says. Do you ever think war is a good thing? If we could have won WWII without killing Nazis, would you have still chosen to have them slaughtered? Likewise Starbuck didn't want to torture the Cylon, she even prayed for him, but she had to.

[Mustex]

Originally Posted by BST

Exactly what I had indicated earlier - it says something different to me than it does to you. I've watched the new show and I'm still waiting to see what was meant by the term, "ambitious".

And you've failed to provide an example of another way it could be interpretted.