Some Personal Thoughts

[Eric Paddon]

First, Rigel, thanks for your comments. They are appreciated.

I am not unfamiliar with much of what you post but to me, they are an unfortunate reminder that the most benign thing one can say about Moore and TOS is that he just doesn't "get" what it was about TOS that made it so appreciated and beloved by someone like me.

#1. The "chair swivel" bit as a "homage" to me strikes me as a reach, though I will admit I haven't seen it (I haven't watched any episodes beyond the miniseries and believe me that was not an easy experience). It does though remind me of how I thought the "homage" in the miniseries by playing a tinny rendition of the original theme for a brief second or two struck me more as demeaning, and less of a true homage.

#2. It isn't that there are no Egyptian elements in TNS that has been a chief cause for objection, though it is more likely to really bother those who were impressed by the whole notion of the "ancient astronaut" element of TOS, it is the lack of a society that is principally faith-based and faith driven, as personified in its central character Commander Adama. The Adama of TOS is a man who is motivated by his deep faith to take the difficult task of leading his people to Earth, and we see that faith vindicated by the unfolding of a universe where there is an absolute struggle of Good-Evil taking place, and one where ultimately perhaps man has not outgrown his need for Divine help after all, unlike the philosophy of a certain Gene Roddenberry series. I could live without Egyptian helmets, but I can not live without the positive view of religion as embodied in the nature of the Human-Cylon conflict, and in the person of Adama and his faith being the core trait of his personality. Without that dynamic, he just can not credibly claim IMO that TNS and its "mythos" is "heavily influenced by that established in the original." Without that area of values, family and moral clarity, he just gives me the kind of universe that I was always grateful TOS was anything but. His problem is he confuses lesser details like "Twelve worlds" with the fundamental essence and thinks that a few retention of details should somehow suffice.

"I wasn't interested in the continuation story. I saw more to be gained by going back and retelling the tale from the beginning than by picking up the story 20 or 40 years later. I personally never thought a continuation was a bad idea, but it simply didn't interest me as a writer. "

And to me, that remark is the height of arrogance. He shows no understanding for what the fanbase of this property wanted to see for so many years, and couldn't see past his own pride to get a measure of what the name "Battlestar Galactica" has meant to people like me for so many years, and what our expectations have been all these years. There isn't any way I could look at a remark like that and come away with anything but a negative view of Moore, because it shows the ultimate disrespect for TOS fanbase and boils it down to himself only.

Those are just my own thoughts on those points you bring up, and if you want to respond on those points, I'm happy to listen.

[nextceo]

Eric, I understand how you feel I really do, so my one comment here hopefully you will not take offense to as it is not my intent. In Rigels comments and your reply you feel it is RDM's height of arrogance that he didn't do what the fanbase wanted and did what he wanted. That he disrespected the fanbase. I disagree to an extent. First, he was approached by Sci-Fi to take over the reigns not the other way around. He was currently already working on Carnivale and felt that if he was going to do the show (as he had to leave a show he was already working on) then he wanted to do it his way. I respect that. He is an artist in every sense of the word and wanted to write a script and story he was passionate about. He wanted to do things his way and in a way he would enjoy writing and producing a show on an every day basis. He simply did not have the desire to follow a continuation. Just as you don't like TNS, and would not write in its timeline, he did not have an interest in writing in a TOS continuation timeline. He had a different vision for Galactica and wanted to make it more relavent to todays atmosphere, not the atmosphere of 25 years ago. Not to say that is right or wrong (although for me personally he has hit the nail on the head in what I want to see in a sci-fi show). It was nothing against the fans, its just not what he wanted to do. He wanted to make a sci-fi show in the way he had always envisioned it being done (since working on TNG and DS9) and felt he could not accomplish that or do it as well in a continuation. If people want to be ticked, be ticked at Bonnie Hammer for changing things up, but I can't see being as mad at Moore because he is doing the show he wanted to do at the request of his employer, Sci-Fi. Its like my company, we do promotional video work primarily for corporate clients. Our clients may give us the idea of what they want, but we develop our own vision for the story of their company and how we want to present it, not the other way around. I have no desire to do a video job were I have to fit a strict set of rules (as RDM would have to do in a continuation), I want to put my own stamp on the company and how it is promoted because I have a passion for developing my own vision, not someone elses.

[Darrell Lawrence]

nextceo, Moore had some disparging and insulting comments himself back in the beginning. People haven't forgotten that, nor should they.

He "wonders" why osBG fans don't like what he's done as far as "tributes" and such, and wants them to give the show a chance, but it falls back on his early comments as to why they won't.

He's never apologized for it, and he feels he shouldn't have to, I imagine. That's a part of his arrogance and ego.

He insults them, then expects praise from them for his version of someone elses work? Kinda hard to swallow

...and yes, there's plenty aimed at Bonnie too. Some of that pre-dates even DeSanto/Singer.

Well said, Next. I'm right there with you.

However, I also certainly respect Eric and Warrior's opinions on the matter (this is kinda Eric's thread anyways) so it's very interesting to read about both sides of the coin.

Our Priest, who is also a Liturgics professor, at our Episcopal church often picks books for bible study that contradict most of what we agree with (we're more liberal than most but very anglo-catholic) but we read them anyway. Everyone usually grumbles the whole time about the book but he feels it's important to read both sides of issues before you declare a stance and try to support it, and I have to agree with him. It's not fair to say you disagree without making the effort to understand both sides. In my book, that's the height of ignorance and intolerance and it's unfortunately becoming the norm.

So, here's to sharing opinions, and agreeing to disagreeing respectfully with one another when that happens, which is the height of civilization.

Best regards,
Rigel

[gmd3d]

and agreeing to disagreeing respectfully with one another when that happens, which is the height of civilization.

Well said Rigel. That is something we should always remember ..

[Eric Paddon]

Nextceo, the big stumbling block to your argument is that Moore from my standpoint did not earn on an ethical level, the right to impose "his" vision of the property "Battlestar Galactica" on the rest of us, anymore than I think Art Modell had the ethical right to move the Cleveland Browns out of Cleveland and betray the fans of that city. Legally yes, but ethically no. If he were a longstanding fan of the series who understood how it ticked and was writing his vision of what happened next in that universe, while retaining the values and essence of the original, that's one thing. But he was not a fan of the original, and clearly shows no sign of understanding why it reasonated with its fans. In this case he has imposed his own agenda on someone else's work, and that does not sit well with me in any context.

Harve Bennett had very little knowledge of Star Trek when he was tapped to take over the movie series after the disappointing reaction to the first one. What was the one thing he did? He didn't set out to impose his personal creative vision on the property at the expense of what the fans of Star Trek had enjoyed, he went out and researched the episodes to try and find a good story to tell in the finest tradition of the series. He let respect for the property be his first guide, and not his personal pride as a writer the way Moore has done with Galactica.

If Moore as a writer wanted to write a show that utilized the value system and other aspects that typify TNS he should have waited for a chance to do something completely original and not applied it to someone else's work, knowing it was going to upset a lot of people.

One final point. I can not be more ticked at Bonnie Hammer for a simple reason. Moore's own words in the DVD reveal that if he had decided to in effect pick up where DeSanto had left off and done a continuation, there would have been no objection from Sci-Fi or Universal. Therefore, he was not, contrary to what I heard some say a while back, under a mandate to go completely original, it was entirely his call. And my take is that he did not earn the ethical right to do that.

Blind hatred of Moore and SCIFI is not going to get anyone a Continuation nor is it rational.

Fandom however is often not rational.

Anyone who reads EVERYTHING that has gone on with Moore knows he has reached out on many occasions. We have all read about it so no need to look it up and repost it. If you want to ignore it I won't change your mind today. I take the word of Sandy, Two Brain Cylon on that since I for one am tainted by being a fan of both series. Moore is also a financial contributer to the Colonial Fan Force. I wish the hard core anti-TNS crowd could focus their issues on the product and not human beings.

SCIFI who is so hated has also been the home of TOS for well over a decade now. They have been the sole entity keeping TOS on television for a long time. They are probably one of the leading entities that have kept TOS alive in the public during a large segment of TOS's post ABC existence. Despite all the failed start up attempts they are the one and only entity thus far to believe in the concept of "Battlestar Galactica" to have actually put product in front of a television audience since the end of BG80.

It's not personal, its a business. SCIFI believed in "Battlestar Galactica" but did not believe a TOS Continuation was what was best for today's audience. They did what they thought best. The viewers will decide if they were right.

I remember when Moore wrote a reach out letter to one of the stalwarts of the TOS-only community. It was then posted by that person. I also remember the sarcastic responses and the replies cheering on the sarcasm.

I understand the feeling but focusing your anger on human beings about a television show is ridiculous.

[BRG]

Originally Posted by Taranis

Well said Rigel. That is something we should always remember ..

Yes, an excellent post Rigel. I can only echo what Taranis has said.
BRG

[justjackrandom]

Antelope,

I agree with you that “Blind hatred of Moore and SCIFI is not going to get anyone a Continuation nor is it rational”
I will also agree “Fandom … is often not rational.”

The problem with these statements is that you associate fandom with blind hatred, and I take issue with that.

True there are many fans of TOS who are continuation supporters that strongly dislike Moore and SCIFI. Some may even hate…but to say that such feeling is “blind” suggests that they have no reason for feeling as they do, a position that can easily be refuted by reading their numerous posts. Such fans have excellent reasons for feeling as they do, and many have stated those reasons time and again.

As for Moore reaching out to fans, again I would to a limited extent agree with you, as I am sure Moore would. But there are a great many who would not, or see his overtures as pandering. Given RDM’s public personality and demeanor, as well as the results of his labors, I can see how his actions could be construed as negative. He certainly made no large overtures in the early days of the project to the fan base, nor did he indicate he really cared about TOS in any way.

I don’t remember the letter you reference from RDM. It would be nice if I did, as it would mean it had made an impact. I do believe that since the project has gone to series he has tried to reach out more to TOS fans. But for many, it’s too little, too late.

Finally you say, “I understand the feeling but focusing your anger on human beings about a television show is ridiculous.”

To which I reply: Neither you, nor I (who am also a supporter of TNS as well as a TOS fanatic) can truly understand. We aren’t living it, as those who feel they have been betrayed do.

I don’t always agree with the positions some TOS-only fans take, nor do I always like the vehement way they attack TNS, but I understand that not being in their shoes, I am not one to judge the source of their feeling. And lastly I say that in this day-in-age, when the world can be so sterile and corporately structured and controlled, passion about anything is never ridiculous. It is to be applauded and encouraged.

--JJR

[Eric Paddon]

"Blind hatred of Moore and SCIFI is not going to get anyone a Continuation nor is it rational."

Excuse me Antelope, but this is not "blind hatred" of Moore, it's the result of having looked at what he's said with eyes open. There is nothing "irrational" about the perspective many like myself have chosen to take regarding Moore because at the very least when we choose to explain ourselves about it, we do so with regard to a specific body of facts, and don't just boil down our responses to a petulant one-sentence outburst laced with four letter words. You'd be right to complain about people who take that approach, but let's not lump those of us who try to express our feelings in a thoughtful, open way in the category of the "irrational."

"Anyone who reads EVERYTHING that has gone on with Moore knows he has reached out on many occasions."

Antelope, this is not going to wash with someone like me when you say, "Yes he has!" and then won't address the evidence on the other side of the equation that indicates otherwise. At least when Rigel posted what she in good faith felt were signs of this policy, I felt that those needed to be addressed. The least you could do, if you feel the total picture is on the other side, is to explain then the things Moore has said and done that paint a dramatically different picture of events.

"SCIFI who is so hated has also been the home of TOS for well over a decade now. They have been the sole entity keeping TOS on television for a long time. They are probably one of the leading entities that have kept TOS alive in the public during a large segment of TOS's post ABC existence. Despite all the failed start up attempts they are the one and only entity thus far to believe in the concept of "Battlestar Galactica" to have actually put product in front of a television audience since the end of BG80."

I'm afraid I don't get your point. That almost by inference could be read to mean that Sci-FI is exempt from criticism because they air TOS. In a similar vein, I applaud Universal for giving TOS the best release on DVD that *any* Universal series is likely to ever get (compare the Galactica supplements to the barebones releases of shows like "Night Gallery", "Columbo" etc.) but that doesn't mean Universal isn't guilty of demeaning the value of TOS in other areas too.

"SCIFI believed in "Battlestar Galactica" but did not believe a TOS Continuation was what was best for today's audience."

Moore's own words, that you keep saying we need to rely on, say otherwise. Why would he say in the DVD commentary that if he wanted to do a continuation, Sci-Fi, nor Universal would not have objected?

"I understand the feeling but focusing your anger on human beings about a television show is ridiculous. "

Antelope, it is not ridiculous, and as I said in my first post, this is not about a mere "television show" it's about something deeper that transcends the matter of whether there is ever a continuation or not. I'm sorry that you're not able to see it from that standpoint, but it really doesn't help to brand those of us who after many years see a lot of hurt pride and shattered hopes as somehow not being "rational" if we at least take the time to not express our feelings in an undignified manner (which I will grant you, many have done in other places).

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

Excuse me Antelope, but this is not "blind hatred" of Moore, it's the result of having looked at what he's said with eyes open. There is nothing "irrational" about the perspective many like myself have chosen to take regarding Moore

Antelope, this is not going to wash with someone like me when you say, "Yes he has!" and then won't address the evidence on the other side of the equation that indicates otherwise.

this is not about a mere "television show"

Again you reference Moore and not the product. Ron Moore doesn't know you, me or anyone else here personally unless you are his friend, neighbor, or coworker. You hate a human being because he earns his living by making a television show you don't like.

You have read all the things I have over the past year or so. I don't need to repost them. You are not new here. If you want to ignore every post or article related to Moore reaching out to angry members of the TOS fan base I am not going to change your mind today. Those who don't want to see it call all his efforts pandering or insincere. Since neither of us know him personally nor can we see into his heart I think I will just say that for whatever reason he has made an effort.

Yes, it is about a television show. You may believe it is about more than a television show but I am pretty sure no one employed in the production of TOS, BG80, or TNS ever had any illusions that they were doing anything other than working on a television show.

Glen Larson and the other TOS writers were able to touch you in a deep way when they wrote scripts for a television show. Thank God that you were lucky enough to have such an experience. These things seldom happen for most people. Don't loose sight however that Glen Larson, Universal, and ABC weren't looking to give you or anyone else such an experience. They were trying to sell commercial air time to advertisers, sell childrens toys, make money on theatre ticket sales, and collect revenue off selling syndication rights.

Finally: Nothing Ron Moore or anyone else has or will do will ever destroy one episode of TOS. TOS will always be there. Ron Moore, SCIFI, Sky One, etc are creators of a new television series not destroyers of two former television series.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Antelope, to clarify what I said-

Moore said things BEFORE his "reaching out" that he has never apologized for.

Rigel, please be clear on this- I have no beef with nuBG fans unless they themselves act like buttheads

My beef is with Hammer, Moore and Eich (who, amazing enough, has been left alone for the most part, yet some of HIS comments were of the worste tripe towards original fans!) and with how the show came into existance.

Originally Posted by Warrior

Moore said things BEFORE his "reaching out" that he has never apologized for.

Moore's opinions on the actions and words of TOS fans are his opinions. Moore's opinions on the quality of TOS are Moore's opinions.

No one need apologize for their opinions. If he hasn't changed his mind on his opinions he has no need to say he now thinks he was wrong.

It looks to me that he has reached out to fans and in some sense expressed regret in how things happened or how his words were taken by elements of the fan base.

At this point there is nothing more for him to do. Basically this is what he has said when you boil it down:

"I am not sorry for what I did but I am sorry if I hurt your feelings."

Those of you who think he needs to apologize for what he did (which is really NOT MAKE A TOS CONTINUATION) will never get the apology you want.

[Darrell Lawrence]

I said apologize for things he said, not did.

Funny... you're posts are coming across as telling folks they are wrong in THEIR opinions, but Moore has a right to his.

Interesting....

[BST]

Antelope,

This Moore-worship of yours is tiresome. Does it not occur to you that folks are going to see things differently? Just as you seem to view Moore as doing "no wrong", there are others who are going to view him as doing "no right".

Personally, I find it amazing that he could be of such arrogance to openly alienate a portion of the Galactica fanbase, and potential audience, before his show even aired. Ratings data from Sky-One and Sci-Fi seem to indicate that the show is either slipping or barely keeping its audience.

Maybe he would have done well to have extended an olive branch or two.

Originally Posted by Warrior

I said apologize for things he said, not did.

Funny... you're posts are coming across as telling folks they are wrong in THEIR opinions, but Moore has a right to his.

Interesting....

I do think their opinions are wrong, however I am not demanding anyone apologize to me for holding an opinion I find without merit.

I have respect for everyones right to an opinion accept when it comes to trying to force another human being to do something against their will. I do however think these calls are an attempt to punish and humiliate Moore for expressing nothing more than his opinions.

You can say Moore and Bonnie Hammer are fools and they are welcome to think you are a fool for saying so but don't think either one of you deserves an apology for expressing your opinion.

Contraversy in a nutshell:

Moore: I am going to remake Battlestar Galactica.

TOS only fan: You are a fool for not making a TOS Continuation.

Moore: You are a fool if you want a TOS Continuation.

TOS only fan: You are a mean person for calling me a fool.

Moore: I am sorry for calling you a fool but I still think your thoughts are foolish.

TOS only fan: I want you to admit I am not foolish.

[BST]

So, Moore's opinions are elevated above those of anyone else? Is that what you're saying?

[Darrell Lawrence]

Boy... talk about trying to take things out of context!
WHERE has it been said in this thread that either side called the other fools in regards to making whichever they prefered?

Originally Posted by BST

This Moore-worship of yours is tiresome.

WTF?

Does it not occur to you that folks are going to see things differently? Just as you seem to view Moore as doing "no wrong", there are others who are going to view him as doing "no right".

HE MADE A TELEVISION SHOW THAT HURT THE FEELINGS OF SOME PEOPLE THAT WISHED ANOTHER VERSION WAS MADE INSTEAD.

Personally, I find it amazing that he could be of such arrogance to openly alienate a portion of the Galactica fanbase, and potential audience, before his show even aired.

ANY PRODUCTION THAT WAS NOT A TOS BASED CONTINUATION WOULD HAVE ALIENATED AN ELEMENT OF THE FAN BASE. MOORE AND SCIFI HAVE THE OPINION THAT LOOSING THIS PORTION OF THE FAN BASE WILL MORE THAN BE MADE UP BY PEOPLE WHO PREFER THE NEW STYLE OVER THE OLD STYLE. THIS IS ABOUT PERCEPTIONS OF THE POTENTIAL TARGET AUDIENCE NOT ARROGANCE.

Ratings data from Sky-One and Sci-Fi seem to indicate that the show is either slipping or barely keeping his audience.

JUST LIKE THOSE OTHER NEAR FAILURES ON SCIFI LIKE STARGATE AND STARGATE ATLANTIS.

Maybe he would have done well to have extended an olive branch or two.

HE HAS AND MOST TOS ONLY FANS DON'T CARE.

ANSWER IN CAPS IN QUOTE

Originally Posted by BST

So, Moore's opinions are elevated above those of anyone else? Is that what you're saying?

I never said or implied that.

He doesn't owe anyone another apology nor was he ever plotting to hurt anyone.

Originally Posted by Warrior

Boy... talk about trying to take things out of context!
WHERE has it been said in this thread that either side called the other fools in regards to making whichever they prefered?

I think "fool" is a simplification of what was in the post that started this thread. If anything "fool" does not assume intent which I believe the original poster implies also. Specifically I would look at this part of the original post:


"It would also help if the disinformation campaign would stop from Ron Moore's quarter as well beacuse his DVD commentary was the ultimate case of a man trying to dance on the grave of TOS and its fanbase as best he could."

I think I need to remind people:

I am a TOS fan from the original air date, watched it in the theatre also, built a model viper and hung it from my bedroom cealing as a boy. I would have preferred a TOS based Continuation, in my opinion a restart immediately after Hand of God with new actors in the old roles.

Ron Moore did not create my preferred option, however he doesn't know me from Adam and never had any intent to hurt me or any other fan of TOS. He made what was in his opinion the best version of Battlestar Galactica. I think it was a mistake to go that route but that is what he and those who backed it with their wallets thought best.

Ron Moore however has suffered many verbal personal attacks as a result of his vision. When he used to respond to these attacks he was pillaried by a part of the TOS fan base. With hindsight being 20/20 he may have chosen his words better.

[Gemini1999]

I would like the time to say something....

I think that it was really thoughtful of Eric to attempt to start a thread that was based on some very thoughtful and in most ways, very respectful discussion. I don't know why when anyone makes this attempt it always degrades into a bitter diatribe regarding the TOS vs. TNS issue.

I think that it took a lot of courage for Eric to take the time to put his thoughts down for everyone to see and comment on. I don't think that it's necessary for someone to say that those opinions are either flawed or incorrect. How can an opinion be wrong, when it is soley that of the individual that's posting it. I can see how someone might either agree with the opinion or not, but as to what's wrong in this thread lies with those that are trying to find fault with Eric's opinion. He told us what he thought and why he feels the way he does.

I really don't know what to make of it, nor do I understand the reasoning to tear down what someone believes in. It would have been nice instead of a "tennis match" for some of the other members to try posting their views with as much thought as Eric has.

I wonder why do people feel threatened when Ron Moore isn't held to high esteem by everyone? (I'm not looking for an answer in this thread) I hear people that complain about Glen Larson all the time - some of those from within the TOS side of the community, but I don't see people getting bent out of shape over it. He had some good ideas and some successful shows, but it's not like he's the "god of television" for doing so. The same with Ron Moore - he's had some successes and some that aren't, but hardly worth canonizing for his efforts.

I'd like to see people be more respectful of each other and focus more on talking about the ideas and not the people behind them.

Best regards,
Bryan

[nextceo]

Good point Bryan and thanks for bringing this conversation back to the original point.

[Dawg]

Based on what I've seen and heard, I believe Moore's intent was to get people talking. The quickest and easiest way to get people talking is to piss them off.

He succeeded.

Time and time again he has deliberately made himself the target. He walked into the panel at Galacticon with the announcement "I'm the one who killed Kirk". He told us not to get mad at Bonnie Hammer, because what was up on that screen now was his, not hers. Apparently in the DVD he takes that a step further by saying that Hammer and Universal would have been fine continuing to work on what Tom DeSanto had started.

He has been condescending and dismissive of the existing fanbase from the get-go.

Yet he 'reached out' to us? By asking for advice after the production on the miniseries was in the can? By inserting minimalized snippets of music or - get this - chair swiveling - on ten seconds of tape?

He did it on purpose, antelope. He wanted the friction, he wanted the controversy, he wanted the fighting, he wanted it focused on him and his show. That's why that idiot Eick got away with what he said. That's why Bonnie Hammer is in Moore's shadow. This is Moore's show, this is Moore's arena of his own making.

Brilliant. Just brilliant. There is no such thing as bad publicity, and we gave it to him by the bucketful.

But none of it changes the way he spoke to us, the way he spoke of us - and you - as being irrelevant and not worthy of consideration. And don't misunderstand - as a fan of his show you are relevant only as long as you watch it. Your wishes and wants are secondary, and will be dismissed the instant they do not conform with his universe. Just as ours were.

He deserves what he gets, because it's exactly what he asked for.

My hat's off to him.

I am
Dawg

[Fragmentary]

Television is a business and Ron Moore is a professional. He made a business decision based on his years of experience and that was to re-make the show, not continue it. The show has been a success for both of its networks and has been rewarded with a second, and much longer, season. Right now, at this point in history, it looks like Moore made the right decision. Both for his employer and for his career. That’s all any one of us hopes to do on a day-to-day basis. And when it comes right down to it, that’s all any of this is to him… its just the job that he goes to every day to put food on the table and take care of his family. It’s a great job, and one that I’m sure he loves, but at the end of day it’s just as irritating as everyone else’s.

For some fans, obviously, it’s some kind of bigger issue; a war of ethical standards on television, or rude disrespect to a sacred piece of their childhood nostalgia, or some personal insult derived from a man who they’ve never met, about a show they’ve never worked on, in an industry they know nothing at all about.

I guess these kinds of arguments will continue, but luckily they are less and less often and less and less venomous. Compare now to a year ago, the anger just isn’t as a harsh. TOS fans are either being converted or moving on, either way it’s becoming more and more pleasant to talk about both shows for everyone involved.

I saw Ron Moore at a convention this past weekend. It was very nice. He came out and there was no booing. He answered questions from fans for half an hour and no one said anything disrespectful or snarky. He was very complimentary of Richard Hatch and BSG fans. In fact, someone asked what he thought of fan fic and he encouraged everyone to write any kind they wanted. It was nice to see people listening to him speak, then seeing the same people talking to Richard Hatch at his table.

Galactica’s fan base is shifting. The anger is cooling and the defensiveness is lessening. Myopic microcosms like the Battlestar Beefs forum might be the last place to see these changes, but they are happening. Hopefully, it’s just going to get better and better to be a fan from here on out. And part of making that happen is to bite your tongue and walk away. Everyone could stand to stop attacking or defending once in a while and just go to another thread and talk about something else.

Originally Posted by Dawg

He told us not to get mad at Bonnie Hammer, because what was up on that screen now was his, not hers. Apparently in the DVD he takes that a step further by saying that Hammer and Universal would have been fine continuing to work on what Tom DeSanto had started.

With one sentence Ron Moore absolves all Bonnie Hammer's "sins". I guess all the hate mail and hate threads about her were for nothing or a mistake. Anyone going to apologize to her? Of course not.

This thread from post number one went after Ron Moore. Then the cavalcade came out to cheer it on and still does.

How about a thread that says, "TOS meant XYZ to me and I was really hurt when TNS came out because it means ABC to me." instead of one more rant against the arrogant Ron Moore who is dancing on the grave of TOS.

In the end most anti-Moore rants assume either Moore intentionally does what he does because he hates TOS and TOS fans or Moore believed from Day 1 that a non-TOS based version wouldn't be successful unless he ginned up a contraversy. The first belief is simply irrational and the second belief if true would imply that Moore would have made a TOS based Continuation instead which he didn't.

How about this for an idea: Moore did what he wanted to do and thought would work best. Although not his intention he knew from the get go it would piss off some people so he simply made an omlette with his broken eggs. SCIFI made a marketing plan that took the reality of a vocal element of the TOS fanbase into consideration.

[nextceo]

I'll take Bryan's observation and hopefully comment on my thoughts. I also want to say, as I did in my first post in this thread that I understand Eric's frustration. I should also add that I respect his taking the time to make the points that he did and to share with us his thoughts and feelings. I'd also like to take the time to share mine. This is not to be intended as a shot at TNS haters, but simply to share with all of you my feelings of how things are as I see them. I hope not to offend but share, but as we all know with the emotions engaged in this discussion some may take it as such.

First, as I have stated many times before, I do understand the feelings people have because I was a and AM a strong TOS fan, who participated in the letter writing campaigns of the early and later days, even signed the online petition saying I would not watch a reimagining of the show. I sent letters to Universal and Bonnie Hammer herself, which I'm sure she likely didn't read. I even had articles posted on battlestargalactica.com when Richard was fighting for a continuation in which I pointed out how I felt Sci-Fi was making a bad decision. As a teenager I used to set my clock around finding reruns of TOS in syndication and would spend hours flipping between stations looking for an episode when it was scheduled to show but for some reason was not broadcast. I loved Apollo and Starbuck, Adama and Boomer, and most notably Sheba who I had my first crush on (and why I always enjoy Julix posting because of her Sheba avatar, it brings back so many good memories! ). So when I say I understand how those of you feel who stongly dislike TNS and those of you who actually hate it, I do mean it and I beleive have the credibility in my background to back that comment up.

I didn't want to watch the mini, but couldn't help it. I loved BSG and decided I wanted to at least give the mini a chance. So I watched it, and you know what I fell in love with the new show. I understand some dislike it for the actual content, as we all disagree on shows, some dislike and hate it simply because it came to be. I can understand that even watching TNS can be painful for some of you, so how can you be expected to really enjoy much about it? You can't and I have come to that realization. I really no longer feel the need to try and change the opinions of those who dislike TNS, because I understand those feelings aren't going to change. I do however feel the need to defend the show when I feel that people are attacking it simply out of hate and not for artistic reasons. This is why I just wish the attacking would stop. Look we don't all have to be fanboys and can disagree on content, but some of the hatred that is spewed is difficult for us to take who love the show. Just as some TNS fans like to run down TOS, it pisses you off, so don't you think that those of us who love TNS would feel the same way when you berate the show and its creators? Do I support RDM maybe a little more than I should, sure of course I do because I appreciate his vision. You may not and that is fine. But please don't run down the show I love, because you have a chip on your shoulder.

As a film maker myself I have a certain understanding of the creative process of creating a show. Certainly not on a scale like BSG but I do have a basic understanding, and because of that I can understand why RDM went the way he did. As an artist he wanted to create something that he personally identifies with and suits what he feels can be successful. He did not have a desire to to a continuation. Nuff said. Right or wrong that was his decision. Villifying him because he follows his passion for what he feels will make the show successful doesn't solve anything. Should they have named it BSG? I think so, to me the show is very similar to the original but done to fit into todays viewing habits and likes. I'm sure those of you will disagree with me, that is fine, I just want to say that I get the vision of what is going on in TNS and buy it, some of us do, some don't. I love the gritty feel. I love the way everyone has their foibles and problems, and I love how as the season is progressing you are beginning to see people overcome their problems and become the heroic people they can be. To me it is very satifying to see a character overcome so much to become a better person, a better leader, a better friend, then for them to be perfect in the first place. I love the original Apollo, but look the guy was pretty close to perfect. And he was someone to look up to because of his heroic character. The new Apollo is not perfect, had a chip on his shoulder and struggled to become the CAG. The guy came to a ship that he didn't get along with his father, was thrust into a leadership position he wasn't quite ready for with a group of pilots he hadn't ever flown with. So he made mistakes and had problems. But you know what, as the season has progressed his character has grown up, has taken responsibility and is starting to become (I emphasize starting) that heroic figure the old Apollo was. I respect and appreciate that character growth, it appeals to me. I enjoy the heroic nature of overcoming your personal problems and issues to become a better person. To some of you it does not. I respect that, but the TNS way works for me.

The one great thing about fleets is the ability for TNS and TOS fans to come together and share. But when people get hateful, no one wants to come here and share. It tears me up to see a show I love and breathe for again get shredded by people because they even hate its existence. Again I understand your feelings for not liking the show, but please when you look to vent about the show, realize there are those of us who love TNS the way you love TOS and it tears us up inside to see you criticize it the way people who don't understand TOS criticize it. Please, don't say well you know what TNS people started it or RDM started it, or whatever, so we are simply giving back what you all started. Two wrongs don't make a right. You know what I didn't start anything. I don't want to criticize TOS. I just ask that you be better than what other people have been when criticizing TOS. So in the end, I guess my feeling is if you don't have something nice to say, just don't say it. Constructive criticism is one thing, pure hate for the sake of hate is another. My 2 cubits.

One last thing, I love all you guys for your passion for the shows, TNS, TOS etc. That is what is great about fans is the passion we have for the shows we love.

[Gemini1999]

Nextceo -

Now, that's some thoughtful posting! Much more refreshing than the tired old arguments.....thank you!

Anyone else? Or is this where it degrades into chuntering on about the same old thing in the same old way?

I like the way Eric started it out and I like the way that Nextceo's followed up in kind. It'd be nice if we could use this as a benchmark for discussion from here on out.

I'm also jealous that you went to the con in Pasadena.......I wanted to, but practicality won out on that one....!

Best,
Bryan

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by Dawg

My hat's off to him.

As is mine to you...again.


It isn't just the insight, but the artful simplicity and directness of statement that I am in awe of.



-JJR