Enough is enough, damn it! - Page 2

Muffit · February 15th, 2004, 07:48 PM

(Thank you so much my mini friends for understanding.

). I do have to say I agree with Ken and Darth and others that I would not hold anyone in "contempt" or anything like that if a large part were offered and they needed to take it for reasons of finances. We are all human beings first and holders of beliefs second, and there are families to be cared for. But sadly it would not stir me to watch and yes I would be hurt, even if I understood.

Life so often gives us choices which are not choices at all but rather dilemmas. There is no right or wrong answer to a dilemma, only unfortunate and unavoidable consequences.

Affectionately,
Muffit

thomas7g · February 15th, 2004, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micheleh

"of course the fans could always kill this "positive step" too. Probably will."

What is that supposed to mean?

(To clarify- as the leader of serenity island, you of all people should recognise the potential for misinterpretation and the instigation of arguments in such an open ended judgement.)

I apologize for sounding so pessimistic. But I've seen so many step backwards its frustrating.

We, the fanbase, gets extremely emotional and wants the world to work to how WE think it should be. And we can get extremely mad if we don’t get exactly what we want.

The Moore series, no matter if you like it or not, shines a bright pretty light on the original series. The kind of PR it hasn't had in decades.

Hatch and Benedict on the Moore Series will bring positive PR to the old show. That's what the continuation movement desperately needs, POSITIVE PR. Lots of commericals advertising it. Interviews. News reports on Entertainment Tonight. On scifi, on CNN, on ABC, on NBC, CBS, E! etc.

It will help Larson and DeSanto secure financial backing.

But if you say the main actors are “traitors”, that reduces their value. Any movie with them will be less profitable. And isn’t that's one more step toward obscurity for the continuation?

So we can either have all this positive advertisement for the continuation movie reaching over a HUNDRED MILLION people. OR fans can stop this and we are back to having virtually no support for it.

I also don't think we should condemn people who need work. People need to work. And its the same kind of "traitor" accusations Don and Ken had to go through when they were labeled traitors for taking their first opportunity in the CG field (because it was on the miniseries).

Muffit · February 15th, 2004, 09:12 PM

Hi Thomas,

I hope you will forgive folks like me for our reaction and view (sorry! really!), please remember what we have gone thru; there have been so very many carrots dangled in front of us for the last 5 years and it seems like everyone who touches BSG wants to twist it this way and that instead of leaving it be, and in so doing splits us the fanbase over and over again until virtually none of us are sure if we agree with one another anymore. It seemed so simple to me at the start, all we asked for was to continue from The Hand of God. That's all really. Instead we get walking vipers and biodomes and Cylon Apollos and sex changed Starbucks and Lord knows what else. Each of us is at a different stage of acceptance of all these drastic and unwanted changes, and that's why the fanbase is so fragmented. We didn't split ourselves, we were split when we responded to the unthinkable in predictable (and you are right, sometimes stupid) ways.

We come from a culture that believes in and expects responsibility and justice from those who can do things we cannot (even in such areas as pursuit of happiness by way of media). It is that expectance that makes us (to what the rest of the world must think surely) as spoiled. None of us would be split right now if they simply did what they originally did in 1978 (or better yet, never cancelled the darn thing in the first place).

But here we are and it hurts me so much to see each of us in various stages of anxiety and pain. You are my friends no matter what you feel or what stage you are at, and I hope and pray we won't lose sight of that at least. We do not hold the reins, we just rock the wagon as we sit in the back and the drivers take us everywhere except where we want to go. May somehow, someway, the ride end happily, wherever that may be, not because we reached our goal, but because we shared the journey together.

Dawg · February 15th, 2004, 09:35 PM

Guys? I'm sitting here, reading some very fine, impassioned, heartfelt comments from you (and agreeing with what each and every one has to say) and I just had something of an epiphany. (I hope I spelled that right - that's my birthday...)

You know how we accuse Sci-Fi of being spin doctors? Well, why can't we do the same thing?

If they don't appear, they are acknowledging that the mini isn't BSG, so let's go for a continuation movie.

If they do appear, they are shining a light on TOS (thanks, Tom), showing they still have it, so let's go for a continuation movie.

We can make it work either way if we want to. Just like they can.

Think about it.

G'night!

I am
Dawg

thomas7g · February 15th, 2004, 09:38 PM

I'm sorry If I got so irritated. Like I've said, I've seen sooooo many chances thrown away by the fanbase. We seem to be always shooting ourselves in the foot.

I also remember Don and Ken being labeled as traitors just because they took work related to the Moore show. That was unfair. VERY. Its easy to condemn when it isn't you who needs work. I've met Don and Ken in real life. They are both very respectable and good hearted fans of BG1. Calling them traitor was assinine. They never were. They've always been some of BG's biggest supporters. They have spent large amounts of money and manhours supporting it. They should never have been labeled traitors by anyone.

thomas7g · February 15th, 2004, 09:40 PM

Dawg! You da Man! Now THAT is smart thinking.

a bow to your wisdom!

Raymar3d · February 15th, 2004, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas7g

Dawg! You da Man! Now THAT is smart thinking.

a bow to your wisdom!

Precisely!

Ken

P.S. How about this....? Apollo and Starbuck (the originals) were picked up by Cain, and after many years in his service (while Galactica 1980 happened) they took over for Cain, and are now in command of the Pegasus. The Pegasus has crossed into a parallel universe (the mini's) and encounters a very different Galactica.... Continuation, solves all the issues at once, LOL.

amberstar · February 16th, 2004, 08:11 AM

Good idea Raymar!
A rip in space and time bringing all relms of Galactica into one universe

Amber

Micheleh · February 16th, 2004, 10:21 AM

Tom... I don't think anyone in tis thread was implying traitor as far as Don or Ken- they wre referring to a feeling of betrayal were the original cast to happily join the Moore cast in any way.

"I'm sorry If I got so irritated. Like I've said, I've seen sooooo many chances thrown away by the fanbase. We seem to be always shooting ourselves in the foot."

I understand. Just try to remember- as you well know- how many of those 'chances' were out antd out fabrications meant to use the loyalty of the fanbase to get manipulated responses and results for someone else's ends. There was no intention of ever honoring what was offered in these 'chances'. (Remember the poll, continuation vs prequel, which turned out to be a cheap numbers scma to back the game? That kind of 'chance'.)

In fact, now that I think of it, name me one real, legitimate, geniune 'chance'. I can't think of one.

Raymar3d · February 17th, 2004, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micheleh

Tom... I don't think anyone in tis thread was implying traitor as far as Don or Ken- they wre referring to a feeling of betrayal were the original cast to happily join the Moore cast in any way.

"I'm sorry If I got so irritated. Like I've said, I've seen sooooo many chances thrown away by the fanbase. We seem to be always shooting ourselves in the foot."

I understand. Just try to remember- as you well know- how many of those 'chances' were out antd out fabrications meant to use the loyalty of the fanbase to get manipulated responses and results for someone else's ends. There was no intention of ever honoring what was offered in these 'chances'. (Remember the poll, continuation vs prequel, which turned out to be a cheap numbers scma to back the game? That kind of 'chance'.)

In fact, now that I think of it, name me one real, legitimate, geniune 'chance'. I can't think of one.

I can name one. Tom DeSanto's production was getting tons of flak from fans for awhile, and that negativism helped arm certain powers that be with anti-DeSanto/Singer posts that may have helped kill that project. This is of course rumor, not verified, but I have heard it from solid sources that it was very likely to have hindered Tom's production.

That's not to blame anyone, either. It's just a moment to pause and think about it.

Ken

Dawg · February 17th, 2004, 08:48 AM

We, the fans, have got to learn from the past, but we should not be dwelling on it.

Yes - there were accusations early on that a couple of our own had abandoned their long-held stand with TOS in favor of the mini. Those accusations were proven wrong, and nobody's saying that now. As painful as that may have been, they have been vindicated and apologies have been tendered. It's time to look forward.

Mr. DeSanto may have brought some of the fan criticism on himself by being so tight-lipped; but ultimately that was another error on the part of the fans, as proven by the production information that has been released. We did not trust him despite his X-Men success.

When the RDM effort became public knowledge the fans failed to come together - everyone took off in his own direction, a few poorly executed group efforts, a lot of noise and bother that simply proved we weren't worth listening to. Thank you, Languatron. And we had a few others who simply enjoyed stirring the pot, making matters even more confused.

And so we reach this point. Now.

We must learn from the past, or we will be doomed to repeat the same mistakes. But we cannot live there if the Battlestar Galactica fanbase is going to be an effective lobby for future Battlestar Galactica productions. We must welcome the fans who came here after viewing the mini for what they are: fans of Battlestar Galactica - TOS Battlestar Galactica. If they also enjoyed the mini, that's great. But they can come together with the rest of us to support a TOS continuation movie. The kind Tom DeSanto was planning on bringing us, that stays true to the heart and soul of TOS BSG.

We must be able to put aside petty differences and work together to bring about our mutual goal. We must be able to trust the people in the drivers' seats to bring us something we can accept, even if a few details in story don't meet with our individual approval. If we can, we will get what we want. A movie. A TOS-based movie.

I am
Dawg

AlternityOrange · February 17th, 2004, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymar3d

I can name one. Tom DeSanto's production was getting tons of flak from fans for awhile, and that negativism helped arm certain powers that be with anti-DeSanto/Singer posts that may have helped kill that project. This is of course rumor, not verified, but I have heard it from solid sources that it was very likely to have hindered Tom's production.

That's not to blame anyone, either. It's just a moment to pause and think about it.

Ken

That's not fair Ken, apples and oranges. As has been stated a million times before, The "flak" Desanto's production was receiving was because of one simple reason: we had no freaking clue what he was doing. The secrecy was Tom's decision. You visited him at his office I believe, you had a good idea what was going on. The rest of us didn't and it was excruciating. When I first learned of their Battlestar production, an image of what it might be like appeared in my brain. Ironically, it was very similar to what the moore mini was like and it was horrifying. As it turns out nothing could be further from the truth. What Desanto was doing was wonderous. Too bad we had no idea at the time.

Regardless, I believe the "chance" Michelle is asking about is something that has happened since the advent of Moore, Eicke, and Hammer, not prior. A true genuine "chance" to help the original fans and the mini get on a better footing without just a "suck it up and deal with it" attitude. Like her, I can't think of a single example.

thomas7g · February 17th, 2004, 03:59 PM

Erik, the greatest chance was Galacticon. We could have changed the course of this then. Had we been 10,000 in stead of 400, that would have freaked out Moore and Scifi.

Also I have noticed that all the websites are like isolated islands. No two really work together. I've watched time and time again as "leaders" of this fandom break apart. Instead of the unity we need, we give Bonnie our divisiveness to conquer.

For months I have been trying to bring growth to the fanbase. But everyone was on such a bitter witchunt that they were DRIVING AWAY support. You can't keep accusing people of being clones and spys and saboteurs and expect them to support the continuation when you find out they were wrong. Plus that loses alot of people who don't want to hear that crap daily. (and NO that is not a dig on CA, cause I know some people will jump to that conclusion. It was pervasive here too)

I've seen the fanbase do nothing but shoot themselves in the foot. The only thing we did right was buy the dvd.

martok2112 · February 17th, 2004, 04:59 PM

If I may bring something else to the table here...to my knowledge, Galacticon is not the only convention to suffer such dismal numbers. When I lived in West Virginia, the sci-fi conventions (mostly Trek) had hit their peak, with a great number of people showing up, and just as quickly dying out. The last convention I attended didn't even seem to have 200 people show up. That was very dismal. So, even if the convention were to try and support the new Galactica, I think the turnout would've been as equally poor.

There is still strong support for Classica Galactica...don't let a less than stellar turnout at a beloved convention be a turn off. Like I said, it is not an isolated scenario.

If you look at the numbers....there are more fans that love classic TOS Galactica, simply because there are those of us who love the mini that STILL love TOS, than there are those who love the new mini alone. We can be strong if we put aside petty differences like "My Galactica's better than yours!", "You're not a true fan!", and all that trifling. Most of us seem to have done that....but there are those who enjoy stoking the flames of unnecessary drama. They are the ones causing the divisiveness among GALACTICA fans.

Galacticon was not our one last or great chance. The memory still lives on.
Martok speaks truth. Am I right or wrong?

Respectfully,
Martok2112 aka General Chang

February 17th, 2004, 05:14 PM

The Return of Starbuck in BG1980 is viewed by most as the one good episode of BG1980 and could have stood in its own right as a TOS episode. I think the original cast may have opportunities that will make us all happy. I hope it is as an ongoing role in a good series. Even if it is a good role in a good episode in a poor series it will be a good thing for them personally and a benefit to the fans. Let's hope for the best. The old cast need not have their old roles either. We liked them as actors AND characters. I can think of a few actors that were in Star Trek TOS who played completely different but good characters in Star Trek TNG or DS9. Let's wait and see what Moore produces and judge it on its own merits. Not all actors are retired rich people. Some of our favorites from TOS may well need and be happy with the work.

kingfish · February 17th, 2004, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas7g

Erik, the greatest chance was Galacticon. We could have changed the course of this then. Had we been 10,000 in stead of 400, that would have freaked out Moore and Scifi.

Also I have noticed that all the websites are like isolated islands. No two really work together. I've watched time and time again as "leaders" of this fandom break apart. Instead of the unity we need, we give Bonnie our divisiveness to conquer.

For months I have been trying to bring growth to the fanbase. But everyone was on such a bitter witchunt that they were DRIVING AWAY support. You can't keep accusing people of being clones and spys and saboteurs and expect them to support the continuation when you find out they were wrong. Plus that loses alot of people who don't want to hear that crap daily. (and NO that is not a dig on CA, cause I know some people will jump to that conclusion. It was pervasive here too)

I've seen the fanbase do nothing but shoot themselves in the foot. The only thing we did right was buy the dvd.

Speaking of Galacticon, why weren't there any Television ads? I watched sci fi before the convention and noticed not a one. Also many other channels that run science fiction had none. For example UPN which runs Mutant X in syndication had nada.

AlternityOrange · February 17th, 2004, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas7g

Erik, the greatest chance was Galacticon. We could have changed the course of this then. Had we been 10,000 in stead of 400, that would have freaked out Moore and Scifi.

Thomas you can't possibly use the attendence numbers of Galacticon as an example of what you're putting forth here. There were major organizational problems with Galacticon. And I say that as someone who is both, I hope, a decent friend of Michelle's and an aquaintance of Hatch.

If convention attendence numbers were all that mattered, Star Trek would have ended a decade ago. Think about it, would you have attended Galacticon had it been held in New York or Atlanta? Regardless, even if thousands had been there, Bonnie would have issued a press release the following week about fans turning out in droves in anticipation of the new mini-series. There was no winning there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas7g

Also I have noticed that all the websites are like isolated islands. No two really work together. I've watched time and time again as "leaders" of this fandom break apart. Instead of the unity we need, we give Bonnie our divisiveness to conquer.

I agree with you to a point here. But different people have different opinions. I think we've had, until recently, at least a good amount of respect for each other. If there was ever anything major to work on together we did it. In most cases, that's all you need. Bonnie will do whatever she needs to do. Our actions are meaningless to her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas7g

For months I have been trying to bring growth to the fanbase. But everyone was on such a bitter witchunt that they were DRIVING AWAY support. You can't keep accusing people of being clones and spys and saboteurs and expect them to support the continuation when you find out they were wrong. Plus that loses alot of people who don't want to hear that crap daily. (and NO that is not a dig on CA, cause I know some people will jump to that conclusion. It was pervasive here too)

By the same token, you can't enforce "happiness" at the end of a knife. You can't pretend you're on a "happy island" at the expense of ignoring what's going on around you. I'm not sure what the actual answer is, but it hasn't in process at any of our sites.

jewels · February 17th, 2004, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas7g

The only thing we did right was buy the dvd.

Don't underestimate the power of that. It's concrete cash-in-hand on the franchise. It's general public kind of money too: not 100,000 copies for the die hardest of the die hard. It sold well enough to get recommended on some "best Christmas Gift" lists and to have it's sales commented on in pubs. that track such things.

I do think it is a good indicator that there is a market for a properly done continuation. But don't even think about messing with Starbuck.

thomas7g · February 17th, 2004, 09:47 PM

Quote:

By the same token, you can't enforce "happiness" at the end of a knife. You can't pretend you're on a "happy island" at the expense of ignoring what's going on around you. I'm not sure what the actual answer is, but it hasn't in process at any of our sites

What the heck is this KNIFE crap?

Me and Don provide this site. We don't want to PAY to support fans at each other's throats. We tell them to knock it off. Its our site, our money and hard work, and we have the right to tell you to take your war elsewhere. We are painted as the ones pointing knives if we don't let people go for each other's throats. How messed up is THAT?!?

Quote:

Thomas you can't possibly use the attendence numbers of Galacticon as an example of what you're putting forth here. There were major organizational problems with Galacticon.

I agree there were a bunch of problems. I hold no one specific at fault. The point is, NOBODY with money cares what excuses you got. its like your dog ate your homework. The head of MGM or Warner Bros. or any major studio only care about results. It was the big significant 25th anniversary at Universal City with ALL the stars available in one of the biggest most populous cities in america. And fans knew it was a crucial time to make yourself heard. 4 million people in LA. You can't get more favorable conditions than that. And the attendance was unbelievably low. 350-500 were there.

Micheleh · February 17th, 2004, 09:56 PM

We...eellll....

They did sort of have the *entire* public transist system go on strike the Monday before the event, and if that weren't enough, the next day some fools set the city on fire, causing the closure of all the local airports mid-con, and the result that we had our lovely convention in the middle of a bona-fide Bush-sanctified major disaster area.

Little stuff like that.

(Did somebody fool with Mother Nature?)

AlternityOrange · February 17th, 2004, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas7g

What the heck is this KNIFE crap?

Me and Don provide this site. We don't want to PAY to support fans at each other's throats. We tell them to knock it off. Its our site, our money and hard work, and we have the right to tell you to take your war elsewhere.

Just an old expression, that's all. You are absolutely correct that you're free to run your site however you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas7g

I agree there were a bunch of problems. I hold no one specific at fault. The point is, NOBODY with money cares what excuses you got. its like your dog ate your homework. The head of MGM or Warner Bros. or any major studio only care about results. It was the big significant 25th anniversary at Universal City with ALL the stars available in one of the biggest most populous cities in america. And fans knew it was a crucial time to make yourself heard. 4 million people in LA. You can't get more favorable conditions than that. And the attendance was unbelievably low. 350-500 were there.

I like the "dog ate your homework" thing, that's funny. Still I likewise don't think Galacticon mattered much at all to the almighty Powers That Be. We'll never know for sure of course, but I'm pretty confident that even if several thousand had showed up nothing would have changed.

thomas7g · February 17th, 2004, 10:57 PM

You may be right about Galacticon not being able to effect PTB. Who knows. But it would have been nice to confront Moore with a hoard of unhappy fans. That could have changed him.

bsg1fan1975 · February 18th, 2004, 03:40 AM

Thomas normally I would have agreed with you there but in retrospect I dont think it would have fazed Moore one bit. They had their minds made up all ready.

thomas7g · February 18th, 2004, 07:39 AM

Maybe not. But wouldn't it have been FUN to make him face thousands of angry fans!?!?!?

jewels · February 18th, 2004, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingfish

Speaking of Galacticon, why weren't there any Television ads? I watched sci fi before the convention and noticed not a one. Also many other channels that run science fiction had none. For example UPN which runs Mutant X in syndication had nada.

:laugh: TV ads cost tens of thousands of dollars. Even a large local newspaper full page ad can run a couple grand to tens of thousands or even 100 grand for something like LA Times, NY Times, USA Today. Conventions rely on a lot of word of mouth/email/repeat conventioneers (the last don't exist for one time events).

jewels · February 18th, 2004, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micheleh

We...eellll....

They did sort of have the *entire* public transist system go on strike the Monday before the event, and if that weren't enough, the next day some fools set the city on fire, causing the closure of all the local airports mid-con, and the result that we had our lovely convention in the middle of a bona-fide Bush-sanctified major disaster area.

Little stuff like that.

(Did somebody fool with Mother Nature?)

Not to mention the rather substantial portion of the fanbase that was negatively effected by the recession in some way. Takes money to travel. Recovering from recession-spawned career "adjustments" takes time and the economy was only starting to recover in Oct. I know we only made it affordable because we had frequent flyer miles that had to be used.

kingfish · February 18th, 2004, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewels

:laugh: TV ads cost tens of thousands of dollars. Even a large local newspaper full page ad can run a couple grand to tens of thousands or even 100 grand for something like LA Times, NY Times, USA Today. Conventions rely on a lot of word of mouth/email/repeat conventioneers (the last don't exist for one time events).

It takes money to make money. The only great ad that I saw was the one done by Sandy.

The Viper was outstandingly rendered.

kingfish · February 18th, 2004, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas7g

You may be right about Galacticon not being able to effect PTB. Who knows. But it would have been nice to confront Moore with a hoard of unhappy fans. That could have changed him.

I doubt that you would have changed a thing with him. I would have loved for the fans to have been able to confront the true culprit of this mess, Ms. Bonnie "Been there, done that" Hammer.

jewels · February 18th, 2004, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingfish

It takes money to make money. The only great ad that I saw was the one done by Sandy.

The Viper was outstandingly rendered.

Cons don't have those kind of profit margins, period. they probably lose more money than they gain unless they are well established like Dragoncon, Vulcon, Marcon and some of the Trek ones.

shiningstar · February 18th, 2004, 07:00 PM

That's true Jewels.