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September 29th, 2004, 11:22 AM
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#121
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Squadron Leader
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Morristown, NJ
Posts: 1,795
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"Who is to say that God (or rather, some perverted idea of the deity) wasn't on the Cylons side? In the form of the fallen angel Count Iblis?"
The response to that point is that the "no wonder our world fell apart" from a man of faith like Adama is that society became too decadent and materialistic (just like Kobol) and not faithful to traditional religion that it made its own downfall inevitable at the hands of the Cylons. That would be perfectly consistent within the traditional Judeo-Christian concept of man as a fallen race inviting his own difficulties because of his penchant for sin.
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September 29th, 2004, 03:26 PM
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#122
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Guest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
"Who is to say that God (or rather, some perverted idea of the deity) wasn't on the Cylons side? In the form of the fallen angel Count Iblis?"
The response to that point is that the "no wonder our world fell apart" from a man of faith like Adama is that society became too decadent and materialistic (just like Kobol) and not faithful to traditional religion that it made its own downfall inevitable at the hands of the Cylons. That would be perfectly consistent within the traditional Judeo-Christian concept of man as a fallen race inviting his own difficulties because of his penchant for sin.
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Being that Larson is supposedly a religious man himself this theme could come straight out of the Old Testament as it is exactly the same reason the Jews tell themselves to explain the destruction of their nation at the hands of the Babylonians.
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September 29th, 2004, 03:28 PM
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#123
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Guest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larocque6689
Who programmed "God" into the Cylons?
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I think this ultimately will be a big theme in the series.
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September 30th, 2004, 12:11 PM
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#124
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Bad Email Address
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 104
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There is this idea floating around in our society and in the fictional society of the Colonials that because a being is 'designed' or 'manufactured' that it is somehow lacking or less than its human creator.
The idea that someone programmed god into the Cylons is a good example of this problem.
It assumes that the Cylons are bound by programs and limited in their judgement of the universe. The Colonials go so far as to say that the Cylons have no souls. Over and over they have misunderstood and underestimated the Cylons because of this prejudice. Ultimately it led to their destruction.
The Cylons might believe in god for the same reasons we do. What intelligent being wouldnt see the possibility of intelligent design in our amazing universe?
The cautionary tale of TNS should be debated and considered seriously. We are much closer to creating AI than we are to creating FTL drives or other fantastic technologies. I wouldnt be surprised if we see a self aware designed intelligence within my lifetime.
If we embrace this idea that they are less than us, or soulless beings, or fit only to be slaves, than we are going to earn some serious resentment (if and when such beings become capable of conceiving resentment).
Rather we should consider them our children and treat them as such. We should consider them members of the family of man and make sure that they have an equal investment in the future of Earths civilization.
Eventually such beings will possess attributes that are superior to our hit or miss evolved mechanisms.....
They will supass us if we are not careful, and is that necessarilly a bad thing? We should wish to see our children do better than us..........right?
But if we are bad parents they may not take care of us in our old age .
If we cant deal with these issues responsibly we shouldnt create AI. Perhaps it would be better to develop our own capabilities before we create children that can destroy us?
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September 30th, 2004, 12:40 PM
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#125
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Guest
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In TOS we see the IL series cylons seem to be on the same sentient level as humans including emotions. In BG80 on the "Return of Starbuck" we see that even the centurian is really not that different from man. Moore's version just takes it a step further by removing the metal container. Is Cylon 6 really that different than Baltar's Lucifer if you took away the sex scenes? We saw in TOS that cylons had both logic, deception, jealousy, and team spirit. We don't see familial love or do we? The cylons on Gomorrah seemed to be in family units and going to a cultural (political) event. Maybe other than how they reproduce (or more correctly produce) the cylons in TOS weren't that much different than humans after all.
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September 30th, 2004, 05:46 PM
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#126
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On Vacation...
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 9,330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
"On the Moore unfamilarity with the original Battlestar Galactica series : This is a battle I can never win primarily because those who look at this on both sides see what they want to see."
Antelope, this is not true. We have simply taken Ron Moore at his word when he said time and again that his viewing experience of the original Battlestar Galactica series since 1979 was one and a half episdoes in the time leading up to when the miniseries aired. That means he did NOT go back to the original series for inspiration in any way. You can make a subjective argument that the miniseries isn't as anti-religious as people like me think, but what you can not do is twist the objective factual record into something that suits your agenda, because a square peg will not fit in a round hole no matter how much you try to argue the point.
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I just thought an update to this might be helpful here is an excerpt from a letter from Ron Moore
Quote:
Date: 09/05/2002
From: RonDMoore
Also, there's a misperception that I didn't even watch the original pilot until after I pitched the show, but that's not true (I was either misquoted in some interview or I misspoke). The sequence of events was: I got a call from David Eick asking if I'd be interested. I thought about it over a weekend, had an idea for remaking the pilot and then agreed to work out a pitch. A couple of weeks of work followed, during which time I watched the pilot at least three times before we ever went in to pitch it to first the studio and then the network.
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if you wish to read the entire letter it can be read here: http://www.galactica2003.net/articles/moore090502.shtml
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September 30th, 2004, 05:52 PM
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#127
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Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 393
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__________________
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September 30th, 2004, 09:48 PM
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#128
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Squadron Leader
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Morristown, NJ
Posts: 1,795
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Rowan, your update doesn't change one thing with regard to what I wrote. I said that he only watched the cut down pilot and half of another episode in the 25 years leading up to when the miniseries *aired*. And that makes him totally unqualified to render any competent or fair judgment regarding what did and did not work about the original series. For Moore to call that kind of characterizing "misleading" is another example of him shading the truth again, because he's attributing views to his critics that were never expressed (not in my case at least).
The point of the attack is that he did not go back and watch the series as a whole, and on that point there can be no spinning his way out of the hole he dug himself in.
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October 1st, 2004, 12:06 AM
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#129
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Bad Email Address
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 104
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Thanks larocque6689 and Rowan for the excellent links.. I missed some of those posts when they originally appeared and they confirm my thoughts about Ron Moore.
It was nice of him to post on SciFi, he must have been a very busy man if you consider what stage the production was at that time.
I wish he would post again with his thoughts on the series........
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October 1st, 2004, 09:55 AM
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#130
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Bad Email Address
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 104
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Hey just read the new interview with Ron Moore!
http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com/...hp?Article=534
And he actually sort of answered the question about whether the Cylons were programmed with god or found the concept on their own;
"Ron Moore: I’ve thought about Iblis, but haven’t really gone down that path, frankly. I kind of see the Cylons as a race of mechanized beings that went off and evolved on their own. Certainly, I’ve thought about the idea that they had help, and I’ve thought about using Iblis in some sort of storyline, but right now I’m not leaning in that direction."
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October 1st, 2004, 04:03 PM
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#131
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Squadron Leader
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Morristown, NJ
Posts: 1,795
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ioraptor
"Ron Moore: I’ve thought about Iblis, but haven’t really gone down that path, frankly. I kind of see the Cylons as a race of mechanized beings that went off and evolved on their own. Certainly, I’ve thought about the idea that they had help, and I’ve thought about using Iblis in some sort of storyline, but right now I’m not leaning in that direction."
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His answer is yet another reason for me to despise what he has done with the Galactica name and franchise, as if I needed another one. In the above statement he manages to completely destroy the whole meaning of what the struggle was about in Galactica.
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October 1st, 2004, 04:32 PM
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#132
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Bad Email Address
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 12,939
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
His answer is yet another reason for me to despise what he has done with the Galactica name and franchise, as if I needed another one. In the above statement he manages to completely destroy the whole meaning of what the struggle was about in Galactica.
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I know what you mean Eric ........right now he sounds like a politician As
IF we Don't have ENOUGH OF THOSE now!
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October 1st, 2004, 11:31 PM
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#133
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Bad Email Address
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 104
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I take it you really enjoyed the 'Iblis as the devil' thing then. That stuff annoyed me as a kid, and I was going to a hardcore Catholic grade school when those episodes appeared.
The thing I liked best about the Iblis episodes was when Adama levitated a marble or something on his desk. To show that Iblis' power wasnt so far beyond what the Colonials could accomplish.
That was cool.
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October 2nd, 2004, 08:35 AM
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#134
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Squadron Leader
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Morristown, NJ
Posts: 1,795
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The Iblis as the Devil subtext is what elevates the whole saga of Galactica to a richer dimension overall. It explains why the conflict with the Cylons has to be seen in the supposedly "simplistic" good-evil terms and not the typical cliched shades-of-gray approach, and it also makes abundantly clear that this is a Universe where the presence of absolute good and evil is a reality.
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October 2nd, 2004, 01:31 PM
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#135
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Bad Email Address
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 12,939
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
The Iblis as the Devil subtext is what elevates the whole saga of Galactica to a richer dimension overall. It explains why the conflict with the Cylons has to be seen in the supposedly "simplistic" good-evil terms and not the typical cliched shades-of-gray approach, and it also makes abundantly clear that this is a Universe where the presence of absolute good and evil is a reality.
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well said Eric
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October 3rd, 2004, 10:16 PM
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#136
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Bad Email Address
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 104
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blind bassackwards dumb
Here is some food for thought;
Theological Themes in Science Fiction
Here is a good quote from that page;
"If God has ever spoken in any Scripture, then God is capable of speaking to any of us right now -- and does, in every bit of creation around us. But every single one of us is just as capable of being blind bassackwards dumb in our interpretation of what God says as any ancient hidebound traditional teacher -- the closest we'll ever get to understanding truth is in a dialogue between the present and tradition. "
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For fans of the Classic Battlestar Galactica series
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