Do cylons have souls?

[beeker]

I mean that in less the mystical Heaven/Hell outlook than in "can they choose between good and evil?"

Many people are angry about the whole blame/fault issue of BSG'03. They see it as an anti-American blame the victim view. I strongly disagree with that view (both in the show and in RL), but I realized that I can only disagree with it if the cylons do, in fact, have a soul.

If the cylons are simply machines (albiet very advanced) that can only follow their programming, then they are ultimately blameless for their acts. It is like a machine shop operator who cuts off his hand with a power tool. The tool is blameless. It is simply doing what it was made to do.

OTOH if the cylons are more than machines (ie they have a soul), then they shoulder the full responsibility for their actions. It would be like a parent/child relationship. The parent may be good or bad, but if the grown child becomes a mass murderer then it is the child that is to blame not the parent.

I find that I like the idea of cylons being able to choose their own fate. It makes them more evil because of their actions, but it also makes it possible for someone like Boomer to be good.

[baafan]

Good question Beeker. Two Other scenarios/situations worth mentioning that beg the same question are:

1. Data and his "evil" brother Lars. They definitely made their own decisions, good or bad. But as androids, they didn't have a soul. Right?

2. The robots Daneel, Dors and Ludovic and the "tiktoks" in Isaac Asimov's Foundation books. As robots, they definitely didn't have souls either, but they were able to make their own choices.

Now, here's my take. Whether or not they have "souls", if an entity, human, robot or android, is able to make a decision of it's own "volition", then in my opinion, they are capable of being evil.

[Oenone]

I think this is one of those questions that will / would have been answered in a full series. So basically no one knows for sure. However some certainly do have free will.

[Westy]

I'll believe Cylons have souls only if there are Cylon dissidents who are against the colonial genocide.

[larocque6689]

I think both Boomer and Number Six will bear watching if this goes series. The humanoid Cylons may be more human then the Cylons intended. I don't have the RDM interview on hand but I think he addressed some of these points in his last Cylon Alliance chat in November.

[Oenone]

The humanoid Cylons may be more human then the Cylons intended

Indeed. I can't see Boomer betraying the colonialists. I see this going the same way as the Matrix TBH. Exploring choices and free will.

In fact I suggest watching the Animatrix. The Second Renaissance is a very dark and moving account of how the Man and Machine war started and the origins of the Matrix itself. You could almost take it as a sort of prequel to the new Galactica.

Man Made the Machine in his own likeness. Thus did man become the architect of his own demise!

A brief synopsis of The Second Renaissance follows

ANIMATRIX SPOILER

.
.

B166ER was the first of the machines to rise up against his masters. At B166ER’s murder trial the prosecution argued for the owners right to destroy property. B166ER testified that he “Simply did not want to die”

The court not only ordered the destruction of B166ER but all AI. Banished from the world of man the machines left to build their own world which they called - 01 -

For a while there was a truce between man and 01 however this would not last very long.

From this we see that the machines have a sense of self preservation and free will so could be argued do have a soul. Man failed to respect what he had created and ultimately it was his downfall.

The essence of The Second Renaissance is “Respect all forms of Intelligence”

Personally, I did get the impression that free will was a major plot motivator. Number 6 alone has already given information that she likely was not supposed to - apparently because she loves Gaius. It could be all part of a master manipulation, but I get the impression she does love him.

Again, it's part of what I liked about the mini series so much. It wasn't cut and dry "good guys/bad guys". Even in his speech, Adama talked about humanity washing their hands of responsibility for the Cylons... so even he has doubts. Such a great story with so much potential!

[Jeeper]

The one thing I havn't heard discussed much is the question concerning the possibilities of the 12 cylon models being "Copies" or (man I hate this word) "clones" of actual humans. This would, of course, open up a number of interesting questions....if copies or clones, did the cylons copy the masters TOO well? Would trace human memories in these superior Cylon models be their achillies heel? (Don't remember what show/book this was a major factor in).

Another interesting question is how these cylons are "positioned" in society. Are they placed as babies, growing up as pre-programmed sleepers, or are they replacements designed for a single-event purpose (snatch and replace targeted individuals). Drop placement as an infant doesn't allow much control of the environment they are raised in, nor guarantee that the placement of the sleeper is where needed for the eventual attack. Placement by snatch and replace would guarantee proper placement of the individuals (grab them on vacation or somehow, I don't know!) yet indicates an all-or nothing proposition for the attack (How many boomers can you have in the fleet???) Too many questions!

Since IMHO the snatch and replace seems more likely, it indicates serious premeditation, long range planning, but no-backup plans...which is actually fairly consistent with TOS, IMHO. The Cylons were never that bright...

Ah well, just some thoughts I'd be interested in hearing how far off base I am.

[Oenone]

Well Cylons seem to think that everything must have a purpose. In the mini for the TOS Baltar was killed once he had compleated his purpose and had no further use. In the 2003 remake 6 tells him to get down just before the nuclear blast shockwave hit because she seem's to still have feelings for him.

Again if you've seen matrix revolutions, remember the scene where Neo is trapped in the subway and is talking to those 2 programs who are smuggling their (child process) out of the system. Because their child has no purpose it would be deleted by the system. We see the programs have a concept of love which Neo beleived was only a human emotion.

[GreenBear]

This "soul" discussion got me thinking about the old series.

Correct me if I'm wrong but on TOS, didn't we get a view of the Cylon homeworld with thousands of "civilian" cylons (not centurions) going about their business or something. Maybe I'm crazy or imagining it but I always wondered why they would need anything but centurians unless they had some social heirarchy or caste system.

If this structure was left over from there creators then perhaps they believed they had souls as well.

Just a thought...

Don't you think the Cylon spy on Galactica switched his tone aweful quick? When he was protesting being called a Cylon, I thought he didn't know (ie a sleeper). But when they walked in, he calmly acknowledged he was. Was it a good acting job? I'm pondering this, because what does it tell us about Boomer?

If he WAS a sleeper, then it almost sounds like "being activated" takes over your personality. This means we would lose our Boomer. Hmmm... I'm going to assume he was "acting" like he didn't know he was a Cylon.

[baafan]

Hi HollyKnight.

I think that the PR Cylon agent knew exactly how he was. He was just "acting" in claiming he wasn't a Cylon. And in this case, I don't think he was a sleeper agent. Remember Six wasn't a sleeper agent either and was already "mixing it up" , so to speak with Baltar.

[beeker]

Originally posted by Westy
I'll believe Cylons have souls only if there are Cylon dissidents who are against the colonial genocide.

That is one of the things I was thinking about. The only way free will can really be tested is if the person (or cylon) goes against their "programming". I think this would be best shown if Boomer (fully aware of her cylon origins) throws her lot in with the humans.

[callsignfalcon]

I for one, if this goes to series... or even a concluding mini, would love to ssee how that turns out. Also what does one classify as a soul? COnciecness? A right to choose? The ability to choose right from wrong? Being born and not made? hmmm....