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Old March 6th, 2005, 06:15 PM   #1
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Default Both a criticism, and a glimmer of hope

O.k., I hope I'm not going to come right back starting problems again, but while I was out Xenu said something at RA that I felt was perhaps the most mind-blowingly oversight on the part of both fandoms I have ever heard of. To avoid offending any one (to be honest it was in response to a post of mine that would be offensive here), I"m simply going to quote him:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenu
(edited)It goes like this:


I LOVE Dawn of the Dead. Its been my favorite film since I was 13, and I guarantee you I've spent every bit as much time & money on Dawn stuff in the last 20+ years as any fan has ever spent on original Galactica stuff...if not more. I've bought the merchandise, gone to the conventions, met the stars & the filmmakers, worn the T-shirts, every possible thing I could do.

Now, for those of you not familiar (for whatever ungodly reason), George A. Romero, the creator of the Dead films (Night, Dawn, & Day) has been waiting in the wings to make the conclusion to his series of films for 20 years now -since 1985. He's gotten close a time or two, but studio interference & other things have always gotten in the way (sound familiar yet?). For two decades now, fans have been waiting to see the conclusion of the series that began in 1968...and they're just about as hungry for it as Romero's zombies are for their victims.

So, when we fans heard there was new activity on the Dead front a few years ago, we waited with baited breath to see what would happen. Would we finally get the grand, big-budget apocalyptic masterpiece we've been waiting for? The answer was: no. Instead, they were going to "re-imagine" Dawn for a new generation, with a new, younger cast and (heresy of heresies) a DIFFERENT director than George Romero. Needless to say, we fans were not happy (sound familiar yet?.

(edited)

So, the bitching began, of course. Fans were in an uproar....and let me tell you something here: these are horror fans here; if you think sci-fi fans are hardcore, come with me to a Fangoria Weekend of Horrors sometime. How could they be willing to spend millions on a "re-imagining" when there is a perfectly good film waiting to be made with Romero? After all, isn't that why Dawn of the Dead is famous in the first place?

But, nothing could be done...they were going to make their little movie. What were we fans to do? Well, the answer we came up with was....nothing. (edited)
Instead, we thought "well, maybe if this 're-make' thing does well, then it will be a good thing for ALL horror movies, and especially for the Dead series. Heck, if it makes enough money, it might even HELP to get our continuation made (yeah, that part doesn't sound familiar, does it?)!

So, we waitied. The film came out & was very successful. Some of us saw it out of open-mindedness & curiosity, some did not care to. Some liked it, myself included, while at the same time admitting it wasn't even a pretender to Romero's throne...it was, however, a good little zombie film in its own right. I & most others thought it would've been a much better film had it been given a different title, but still, for what it was, it was ok; we knew it would never match the original...but that's not the point. The point is, we supported it, in hopes that greater things could come of it.

And, a few months later, guess what happened? A major studio by the name of....hmm, lemme see...UNIVERSAL(!) approached original creater George Romero and, impressed with the success of the re-make, made him a multimillion dollar offer to produce the long-awaited CONTINUATION of the series that we had always wanted.

So now, almost 2 years later, George is wrapping up the editing of the OFFICIAL fourth Dead film, Land of the Dead, to be released this Halloween. George got full creative control of the project, final cut, and more money to work with than the budget of all the previous Dead films combined. All because a "re-imagining" was not done in by in-fighting & made enough money to make the suits sit up & listen.

Now, everybody's happy. We have our new film, the fans of the re-make are about to get a sequel to the re-make, and all is right in the Dead world (and therefore in mine). Its amazing what can happen in Hollywood.

(edited)
http://ragnaranchorage.proboards25.c...isplay&start=0

This makes co-existance look far more promising (although if LOTD flops might as well make sure your blasters tuned up ).

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Old March 6th, 2005, 06:27 PM   #2
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Hmm, funny. I've known about the Dawn of the Dead history and about Romero getting to make his film as a result of it, but just never thought of it as a parallel to Galactica. It's interesting to see someone lay it out that way.
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Old March 6th, 2005, 06:29 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragmentary
Hmm, funny. I've known about the Dawn of the Dead history and about Romero getting to make his film as a result of it, but just never thought of it as a parallel to Galactica. It's interesting to see someone lay it out that way.
I sentence everyone who knew about this, and didn't think to tell us, to be beaten over the head with a the nearest convient zombie body part for three hours. Xenu gets and hour and a half for waiting so long.
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Old March 6th, 2005, 08:13 PM   #4
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See...

Now, I never really needed someone to point out that a "co-existance" just isn't possible. We've seen more than one James Bond in two different films in the same year. We've seen multiple versions of Superman and Batman on television and in films. We've also seen overlapping Trek films and TV projects at times (although in the same universe) as well.

I've always thought that there was room for both a TV series and a continuation film series - even if made by different directors, casts, etc. at the same time. The only people I've ever heard say that such a thing isn't possible is from the fans. The day I see a fan be able to predict what will and won't work in Hollywood (north or south), they'd also better have a paying job in the industry as well, or it's just talk out of their navels as usual.

I'd be willing to say that even those fans that are deleriously happy with the new BSG series, would be willing to see a continuation film with members of the original series cast in it. I know that there would be some that would balk at the possibilty, but would they buy a ticket if it was in the movie theater down the block? I know I would.

I really would like to think that having Battlestar Galactica in the media's eye with positive reviews and feedback (even if there are BSG fans that don't agree, and that's me some of the time), it would be nice if some studio or producer felt that the series proves that the viability is there for a film. It's all about profit - if one can make money, someone else would like to find a way to cash in on it as well.

I think that something that may be a good example in the near future is "Serenity". A failed TV series with an extremely short life and underestimated audience becoming a major motion picture (with "legs" maybe) - this formula should sound familiar to those that wish for that BSG film that hasn't happened yet.

Here's hoping that there's enough "positive fallout" for everyone in BSG fandom.

Best,
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Old March 6th, 2005, 08:34 PM   #5
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Quote:
The only people I've ever heard say that such a thing isn't possible is from the fans.
Actually, Universal has said they don't want two BG's running around at the same time.
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Old March 6th, 2005, 08:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior
Actually, Universal has said they don't want two BG's running around at the same time.

Darrell -

Who listens to them anyway.....? I sure don't!

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Old March 6th, 2005, 09:25 PM   #7
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As I recall the ORIGINAL proposal of a remake of BSG was to have BioDome ship called Galactica and not a battlestar. That lit the fires that raged for years and set the SciFi management in opposition to the fans.
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Old March 6th, 2005, 09:30 PM   #8
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Ah yes... that was back when Richard and Larson were still going about their ideas... ala pre-DeSanto/Singer by a couple years.
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Old March 6th, 2005, 10:45 PM   #9
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"I really would like to think that having Battlestar Galactica in the media's eye with positive reviews and feedback (even if there are BSG fans that don't agree, and that's me some of the time), it would be nice if some studio or producer felt that the series proves that the viability is there for a film."

Thinking it is one thing. Reality tells me a different picture, and that reality is unfortunately one in which success of TNS has come at the expense of TOS, and in which it's "success" is linked inexorably to running down the value of TOS. I have seen that from Ron Moore, and I have seen it in more non-Galactica message boards than I can count where I finally walked away in disgust because threads about TNS were done solely in the context of looking down on TOS in the process.

I have never felt more miserable than at any other time in my life as a Galactica fan (I stress those four words because that is not a comment on my personal life) because not only has TNS and it's gushing success story led me to walk away from several forums I've been part of for some time (and briefly from this one), it has also sapped me of any desire to celebrate TOS through new fanfic writing or any other outlet I have normally employed in the past. For however long I have to face the reality of a TNS and a PR base that like it or not is dancing on the grave of TOS and 25 years of trying to see a continuation take place, it's becoming increasingly hard for me to feel the simple pride I once had in being a Galactica fan.

I could long ago accept the notion that a TOS continuation was never going to happen as an unfortunate fact of life, but the things that have happened this past year I doubt very much I can ever accept. The simple joy of what being a Galactica fan always meant to me these many years is sadly gone forever. And it's the loss of that for which I will never forgive Ron Moore.
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Old March 6th, 2005, 11:04 PM   #10
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I disagree with the comments about Ron Moore or Universal running down the original series. The more quotes I read from Moore the more I feel he has a healthy respect for the show and certainly for the fans. At least the respectful ones. As for Universal, it’s just not in their best interests to run down the original show. They still make money from it. The DVDs, licensing fees from the reruns, three brand new toy lines, etc... I think most of the derision that people feel has been expressed by these two parties come from comments out of context, misquotes, or more often, a simple over-sensitivity. A great example of that is Moore’s open letter wherein he basically set forth his creative thoughts about what he was trying to do with the new series. Some people read that and come away angry and feeling like Moore is trashing the original show, I read that and don’t get that sense at all.

I’m not trying to defend Moore or his decisions, just point out that there is great deal of room for interpretation about what has been said regarding the original series. And I hope that people who haven’t heard things from the horse’s mouth will do some reading on their own before they take someone else’s opinion at face value. And by no means am I’m I referring to Eric here. I’m speaking of the larger portion of Galactica fans that feel that Moore and Universal have repeatedly maligned the show.
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Old March 6th, 2005, 11:19 PM   #11
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Actually, it's whoever feeds the stuff to the PR department to send out to the news papers and such... the "reviewers".

SciFi (the member, not the genre ) posts a lot of those newspaper links in the nuBG forum area. They all say basically the same thing. They run down osBG and it's fans while promoting nuBG. I've yet to see one where they actually *know* the history of BG.
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Old March 7th, 2005, 03:48 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior
Actually, Universal has said they don't want two BG's running around at the same time.


You are correct. I have seen the same thing at several other places.
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Old March 7th, 2005, 04:37 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by repcisg
As I recall the ORIGINAL proposal of a remake of BSG was to have BioDome ship called Galactica and not a battlestar. That lit the fires that raged for years and set the SciFi management in opposition to the fans.
Absolutely! When Sci-Fi first got the chance to take the project over, their preferred option (well of one particular female executive) was allegedly a hideous 'Silent Running Galactica' hybrid.
Wasn't it the backlash from the fans that made Sci-Fi at least opt for TNS in the form it is now?
I'm not the biggest fan of TNS but I still aplaud the efforts of the fans to keep some of the flavour of the original alive in TNS.
I find it more than a little patronising and belittling to have the efforts of so many devoted fans, some of whom actually put their 'money where their mouths are' reduced to:

'we could have trolled all the message boards for the new Dawn, flooded the company with hateful e-mails, sent Photoshopped death-threats to the leading actresses, or - folly of follys - take out a full-page ad in Variety for the suits to laugh at & throw darts in over their morning expressos.'

Now I can't speak for anyone who sent 'death threats' as I have never spoken to anyone who did or would do such a stupid thing. But I will say that I have read many, many, many, well thought out and lucidly written missive's that fans have written to various of the concerned parties about the whole BSG saga, and yes, they may not have gotten exactly what they wanted (a continuation of TOS) but the good name of BSG wasn't killed off once and for all by the atrocity that would have been 'Biodome Galactica'.

I also find that the comparison between the ressurection (no pun intended) of the two projects (Dead and BSG) doesn't really hold water.
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Old March 7th, 2005, 08:09 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior
Actually, Universal has said they don't want two BG's running around at the same time.
That's TV division though. The merchandising folks are already having a heyday. The film division has some brighter folks in it. Not batting 1000, like say Pixar, but still doing some highly respectable film business and doing unheard of in Hollywood things like throwing major release feature film cash into a "failed" Fox TV franchise.

Yes I know Larson will be a tough nugget to crack if their film division went after it, but money talks, Hollywood walks. It's not a perfect parallel, but at least our sort of lightning has hit once before.

Xenu's point is encouraging. Thanks for sharing it Mustex.
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Old March 7th, 2005, 09:15 AM   #15
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I would like to add; the world of TV can change dramaticly in a years time. In the space of two years Battlestars owners changed from the USA Network to Universal to NBC. Thats three very different owners in two years, and the changes have not stopped. NBC, will over the next two years, proceed with a series of planned reorgs which will completely change the way things are done.

In two years or even next year we could be looking at an entirely new set of players running SciFi.
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Old March 7th, 2005, 10:17 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior
Actually, it's whoever feeds the stuff to the PR department to send out to the news papers and such... the "reviewers".
Aye, although comparisons were inevitable when the mini came out, I read alot of reviews who opened with comments that I thought were purposefully inflammatory towards TOS. Also initially some actors didn't particularly take the high road when it came to dealing with the venting of fans who were upset about the reimagining.

I know alot is made out of 'disgruntled TOS fans' but there were those out there who took advantage of the sensitivity of the subject to create an environment that wasn't constructive, and to stir up fans of the orignal series.

Personally I'm still amazed at the whole TOS/nu thing. I loved TOS, yet I think a major problem with the entire BSG community is that you're made to feel like you have to be on one side or the other. I can still remember alot of animosity over at CA when the mini was coming out. It's interesting how everyone wants to pigeonhole everyone else into a side, kinda like the whole conservative/liberal thing
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Old March 7th, 2005, 11:54 AM   #17
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What I find most interesting is this sudden reference to an old, tired argument that has been discounted time and again: support TNS if you want to see TOS again.

I've got to share with you that I have just come from a conversation with an active fan of Dawn of the Dead who has read what has been reposted here. He found - flaws - in the depictions of events as presented; he disputed the accuracy of this account. However, that is a matter for another place and time.

The reason I'm posting, though, is because I must take issue with the blatant insult in this repost given to several hundred BSG fans who contributed to the CFF effort. A lot of thought and effort went into those ads (which appeared in three publications before all was said and done), which we did not want to be just another fanboy slam against TNS. We wanted (and still want) to keep the movement for a continuation a positive thing, not a negative thing. It's not about what we don't want, but about what we do want.

So to call all the efforts of so many people 'folly' is an affront to their dignity, and is an effort to renew the artificial, personal animosity that served to disrupt us for so long. Won't work this time. I've got too many friends on 'the other side' for that to work again.

It deserves an apology, both for being said and being propogated.

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Old March 7th, 2005, 12:10 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg
What I find most interesting is this sudden reference to an old, tired argument that has been discounted time and again: support TNS if you want to see TOS again.

I've got to share with you that I have just come from a conversation with an active fan of Dawn of the Dead who has read what has been reposted here. He found - flaws - in the depictions of events as presented; he disputed the accuracy of this account. However, that is a matter for another place and time.

The reason I'm posting, though, is because I must take issue with the blatant insult in this repost given to several hundred BSG fans who contributed to the CFF effort. A lot of thought and effort went into those ads (which appeared in three publications before all was said and done), which we did not want to be just another fanboy slam against TNS. We wanted (and still want) to keep the movement for a continuation a positive thing, not a negative thing. It's not about what we don't want, but about what we do want.

So to call all the efforts of so many people 'folly' is an affront to their dignity, and is an effort to renew the artificial, personal animosity that served to disrupt us for so long. Won't work this time. I've got too many friends on 'the other side' for that to work again.

It deserves an apology, both for being said and being propogated.

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I wholeheartdly agree with what you said about TOS fans in respect to TNS.
Why should we have to be made to jump on the bandwagon to support something we don't agree with in that respect. We have the right to feel the way we do.
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Old March 7th, 2005, 12:24 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg
So to call all the efforts of so many people 'folly' is an affront to their dignity, and is an effort to renew the artificial, personal animosity that served to disrupt us for so long. Won't work this time. I've got too many friends on 'the other side' for that to work again.
John -

Thanks for that. Given where the post came from and the "Dawn" references (I could care less about any Dawn of the Dead project), I didn't read it that closely. I guess that some people will never put their clubs down and will continue to beat their chests and war drums when things on the boards quiet down periodically. There are lots better things to talk about than the differences between the factions of BSG fandom.

The one thing that some people fail to mention, is that "folly"...Ron Moore and several other people that are TNS viewers also supported and contributed to it. I guess that the only people that could conclude that it was a complete waste of time would be someone that didn't contribute or put any effort into it.

If CFF is "folly", what does one make of the effort that Farscape fans made to get their miniseries? 300 thousand dollars!!! And what of the "folly" of Trek fans to keep Enterprise in production? 3 million dollars!!! Why anyone would bother to complain about the 12 or 13 thousand we raised seems like hardly worth grousing about in comparison.

As I said regarding such efforts to raise money - It's up to those that contribute to determine whether such efforts are worth funding. I contributed more than once to CFF and I don't regret a dime of it. If someone doesn't like what I do with my money, they can sod off for all I care.

I guess that in the end this topic isn't really worth getting worked up about. As you said, it's an old arguement. I've had my say one way or the other....

Best,
Bryan
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Old March 7th, 2005, 05:38 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior
Actually, Universal has said they don't want two BG's running around at the same time.
Which proves Universal Studios is run by hypocrites. We can, however, ad this to our list of reasons for a continuation: YOU DID IT FOR DOTD!

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Old March 7th, 2005, 05:41 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
"I really would like to think that having Battlestar Galactica in the media's eye with positive reviews and feedback (even if there are BSG fans that don't agree, and that's me some of the time), it would be nice if some studio or producer felt that the series proves that the viability is there for a film."

Thinking it is one thing. Reality tells me a different picture, and that reality is unfortunately one in which success of TNS has come at the expense of TOS, and in which it's "success" is linked inexorably to running down the value of TOS.
post edited.
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Old March 7th, 2005, 05:45 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurian Draco
I also find that the comparison between the ressurection (no pun intended) of the two projects (Dead and BSG) doesn't really hold water.
Why?

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Old March 7th, 2005, 05:51 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg
I've got to share with you that I have just come from a conversation with an active fan of Dawn of the Dead who has read what has been reposted here. He found - flaws - in the depictions of events as presented; he disputed the accuracy of this account. However, that is a matter for another place and time.
This is the second case of claiming flaws, but noone's told me what they are. And this thread was created for this very comparison, what better time or place could there be?

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Old March 7th, 2005, 06:05 PM   #24
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Sorry gang, glazed right over his inadvertant (Xenu's) slams that could be taken as anti-CFF.

I think Mustex posted it because the success of something that was not worthy of the original in DOTD case, enabled a true extension of the original to get back into production.

THAT is what I saw as encouraging.

I don't give a rat's behind what Xenu thought of CFF. To me the value was in telling Hollywood that they missed an option that folks cared about enough to pull together to pull off 2 (now 3) ads. It was noticed by the machinery that eventually could cause something in a continuation vein to be made. Longshot? Yes.

Mustex: if you would, excise (elipses) out the stuff about the normal course of fan campaigns (ads, letters, et all) as that was derogatory, especially in light of Farscape, Firefly, Angel, and Enterprise (all of which have fans here) and CFF which we know had some impact that keeps a spark ignited. I think then you will make the most useful point of Xenu's post: just because someone does a "bad" rendition of a property with some success, doesn't kill the original property's viability every time.


Jewels, who is not a horror fan, so don't ask me why I just justified anything with ref. to a yucky horror flick. Ew.
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Old March 7th, 2005, 06:12 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jewels
Sorry gang, glazed right over his inadvertant (Xenu's) slams that could be taken as anti-CFF.

I think Mustex posted it because the success of something that was not worthy of the original in DOTD case, enabled a true extension of the original to get back into production.

THAT is what I saw as encouraging.

I don't give a rat's behind what Xenu thought of CFF. To me the value was in telling Hollywood that they missed an option that folks cared about enough to pull together to pull off 2 (now 3) ads. It was noticed by the machinery that eventually could cause something in a continuation vein to be made. Longshot? Yes.

Mustex: if you would, excise (elipses) out the stuff about the normal course of fan campaigns (ads, letters, et all) as that was derogatory, especially in light of Farscape, Firefly, Angel, and Enterprise (all of which have fans here) and CFF which we know had some impact that keeps a spark ignited. I think then you will make the most useful point of Xenu's post: just because someone does a "bad" rendition of a property with some success, doesn't kill the original property's viability every time.


Jewels, who is not a horror fan, so don't ask me why I just justified anything with ref. to a yucky horror flick. Ew.
I did a minor edit, removing what I thought was the most unneccessary and offensive part. If there's anything that you think still needs to go then just tell me.

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Old March 7th, 2005, 06:43 PM   #26
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edit: Mustex, did get to look at it.

I think if you chop the first paragraph down to the last sentence, keeping the last sentence, cut a hunk of his comparing his level of love of BG to his level of love for DOTD (it's toward the middle, he kinda rambles for a paragraph or two when he's trying to say he's part of just as adamant a fanbase as TOS BG fans, only he thinks we aren't quite as "fierce"? or adamant as I guess he'd say the DOTD were)). Xenu's opinion and it detracts from his story.

Minimizing someone else's perspective is a huge-o mistake. (yep, I've done it, been bit, still healing.)

Also chop the last paragraph out entirely. The value in this is his retelling of the DOTD history, not in his commentary about BG specifically. Those are his conclusions only.

I'm going to edit into the quote code so it shows Xenu's name for you.

Mustex, please choose your post topics wisely, with the audience sensibilities in mind. We want Muffit to return and find Kindness and respect has ruled here in her abscence. That means we don't taunt each other. And we apologize when we say something stupid.

Jewels
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Old March 7th, 2005, 08:49 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustex
Why?

I think there are many reasons why the comparison isn't a good one.

Mainly because the projects are so totally different in nature, conception, appeal, audience, genre, and objective etc, that you can't simply say 'the fans got what they wanted with 'Teh Dead', so they'll get it with BSG'.

I find all of his logic flawed. He almost 'gets it' for a moment when he talks about the 'Dead' like it's 'Citizen Cain'. Romero was so seminal in the genre that nothing can ever diminish his personal 'force' when it comes to a continuation of the series. No matter how many pale immitators nip at his heels.
That very fact should actually help to rule out comparisons with BSG.

Now, NOBODY is a bigger BSG fan than I am! And while BSG is sacred to me and many others, there are plenty who see it as very much a 'pretender' to the crown worn by Star Wars in the cinema or Star Trek on TV.
Who would dare say Romero's Zombie flicks are that genre's poor relation?
In fact the only conclusion that I'd draw between 'The Dead' and BSG is that it's as much of a shock that anyone tried messing with Romero's vision, as it is that the BSG community actually nearly got its own way with a continuation series 25 years on!




And I still find the comments about the BSG fans patronising and belittling.
Without the ceasless love of so many devoted fans (some famous, most not), the new series would not exist, and BSG would have ended for good.
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Old March 8th, 2005, 06:23 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurian Draco

And I still find the comments about the BSG fans patronising and belittling.
Without the ceasless love of so many devoted fans (some famous, most not), the new series would not exist, and BSG would have ended for good.

Thank you Draco! This is exactly my point as well.


This next part is not a slam to anyone but an observation!

Seems there are people out there that keep forgetting this or just for their own reasons want to forget that TOS existed or sweep it under the rug. Through the efforts of the devoted fans over the years the new show would have never come to fruition.
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Old March 8th, 2005, 08:48 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jewels
edit: Mustex, did get to look at it.

I think if you chop the first paragraph down to the last sentence, keeping the last sentence, cut a hunk of his comparing his level of love of BG to his level of love for DOTD (it's toward the middle, he kinda rambles for a paragraph or two when he's trying to say he's part of just as adamant a fanbase as TOS BG fans, only he thinks we aren't quite as "fierce"? or adamant as I guess he'd say the DOTD were)). Xenu's opinion and it detracts from his story.

Minimizing someone else's perspective is a huge-o mistake. (yep, I've done it, been bit, still healing.)

Also chop the last paragraph out entirely. The value in this is his retelling of the DOTD history, not in his commentary about BG specifically. Those are his conclusions only.

I'm going to edit into the quote code so it shows Xenu's name for you.

Mustex, please choose your post topics wisely, with the audience sensibilities in mind. We want Muffit to return and find Kindness and respect has ruled here in her abscence. That means we don't taunt each other. And we apologize when we say something stupid.

Jewels


I want Muffit to return period. Muffit going is sickening to the bone. I returned to Fleets for Muffit's sake because I do like her. I see I was a KINGFOOL. I guess what Tom Zarek said in Bastille Day is true, "You reap what you soe."
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Old March 8th, 2005, 09:14 AM   #30
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Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. *sigh*
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