Religion and the new BSG
Something struck me as odd and I don't recall it being discussed anywhere.
When Number Six is explaining the reasoning behind her actions to Baltar, both before and after the attacks, she obliquely mentions the fact that she did what she did because "God" told her to. The Cylon at the Ragnar Anchorage postulates to Adama that perhaps the Cylons have evolved a new form of "soul", effectively making them the new "chosen people" in the universe. This gives the Cylons new motivations behind their need for conquest - not just because they're EEE-vil, but because there's a more thought-out and complex manifest destiny that has been built into their next-generation programming by unknown agents. Knowing the backstory of the TOS Cylons, with the Imperious Leader being the embodiment of Iblis - the original Cylon "God" - is it entirely possible that, instead of the warlike reptillian Cylons having been manipulated by Iblis, the Colonials themselves were duped by a "fallen angel"-type character, leading them to build pseudo-sentient robots. The purpose of which was to ultimately overthrow the humans and bring them under this neo-Iblis' dominion, akin to his motives from TOS. Moore has already stated openly that he plans to re-visit some of the better TOS stories. Could this be one of them, along with the Pegasus/Cain thread? Many people have complained about the lack of spiritualism in this new version of BSG. Methinks that Moore is just taking a little bit longer to explore and build into it, possibly even taking it to a deeper level than the original did. Would this introduce some Colonial cult-like religion of Iblis/Satan worshippers? Could this group of rabble-rousers that Richard Hatch's new character is supposed to be in charge of be minions of Iblis, seeking to overthrow the Colonial powerbase and attempt to bring the rag-tag fleet under Iblis' control? This may be why Richard agreed to join the new cast, as he knows that Moore planned all along to follow the original plots. Maybe I'm reaching, but it would be kind of interesting. Thoughts? |
Anyone?
C'mon! I know some people have thought about this... :wtf: |
Of course I think the new show has spiritual elements in it. But I like the new show.
Most of the complaining about it that I see is rather reflexive. It is not TOS so many will grab every difference to rationalize a dislike. |
I am not certain the new show contains "spitituality" in the same sense the old one does. The new show shows religion and spirituality in a negative light - the Cylons using God as the excuse for mass-murder and William Adama using the old texts to lie to his people (he clearly does not believe they are accurate, yet he knows the people of the fleet must, or he wouldn't use it)
The TOS used the religious aspects to explain the hope of the people, where the mini plays on the negative aspets. |
You have some great speculation and insight. For those of us who enjoyed Moore's mini and think he may be using TOS and BG80 for themes the whole religious concept seems of much interest.
Moore supposedly wanted to make Battlestar Galactica more relevant to today's society. The cylons of TOS can be viewed as an archetype based on the Soviet Union as we perceived it in 1978. This is no longer relevant today. America's current enemy is Muslim religious extremists. They are capable of unspeakable brutality in the name of their god. Moore's cylons are patterned after them. The human halocaust of the mini is a 9/11 attack taken to its logical extreme. The war in Moore's universe is a religious war although at this point the colonials probably don't or barely realize it. The mini is actually more overtly religious than TOS at this point. Remember that in Moore's universe we are only at the point of TOS at the end of Saga of A Star World. Religion and myth were just starting to make their appearance in Lost Planet of the Gods. The cylons in Moore's mini had a well constructed view of an afterlife, believed they had souls, believed they could hear from God, and believed that man no longer deserved to have a soul. As you stated they believe they are the new "chosen people". Moore has stated an interest not just in Living Legend but in using the "ships of lights" concept. I think we will see as Moore's series goes on that we have a struggle between a greater good and evil just like we saw in TOS. I think a Satan type figure will turn out to be the leader of the cylons or like Count Iblis in TOS a Satan type figure may have started things in motion. I see in this show that we also may be seeing a secular people find their religion through their tribulations. To some extent this may be similiar to the bible story where an Israelite people lost their religion to decadence and then God "allowed" their nation to be destroyed by the Babylonians. It was as a lost people taken away from their homeland that they again find their faith. There is some thought that the cylons (or an element within them) are sparing the Galactica and rag tag fleet and herding them somewhere. If this is the case it may be that God is working through some part of the cylons to move humanity back to the rightful ways. Maybe the often quoted line by the purist that "I was routing for the cylons" may in a convoluted way be exactly what Moore wanted at this point. The colonials are unworthy of their existence just like Sodom and Gomorrah or the days before the flood. God smited them but spared a small handful lead by a rightous man (or woman) who will start anew. |
You simply prove a point that we "purists" were trying to make early on, Antelope.
In Moore's universe: Cylons = Al Qaida = God's chosen Colonials = Americans = decadent imperialists who don't deserve to live. Not in my universe. Not in TOS's, either. I am Dawg :warrior: |
Quote:
This is supposed too be a War on Terror, not a War on Terrorist Muslims! But I do agree with the rest of what you said. :D |
History is filled with the religiously righteous who then go on to commit unspeakable acts whether it be Muslim, Christian, or Pagan. Today it seems that radical Muslims have the corner on the market for the moment.
I do know that Moore specifically mentioned 9/11 as an inspiration to the Moore cylon halocaust. I believe that saying we have a "War on terrorism" is as stupid as saying we have a "War on RPGs" or a "War on roadside bombs". Terrorism is a tactic not a nation or ideology. We currently are in a war against a radical faction of Islamic believers supported by specific nation states. Calling this a "war on terror" is just a politically correct way of pretending that things aren't really what they are. In your Northern Ireland reference Britain did not fight a "war on terrorism" but a war against a fanatical Irish nationalist group called the IRA who used terrorism as a tactic. You can point to various national or religious insurgencies throughout human history that use terrorism as a tactic to achieve political ends they can not accomplish in a conventional battle. |
I have a big problem with human created Cylons. Moore needs to slip in that the technology came from elswhere and was "worked on and improved by the Colonials"
|
Quote:
:salute: well said, very well said :thumbsup: |
Quote:
"The mini is actually more overtly religious than TOS at this point." And I also reject that argument. It is not "overtly" religious because there is not a single character in the Moore univesre who lives his life based on the principles of a religious based set of values. Stardoe's "prayer" scene in the context of everything else we see about her is the foxhole moment of someone who doesn't take it seriously and let it define her life like we saw it define Adama's life when he assumed the Moses type role with his "Let the word go forth" proclamation in SOASW. "The cylons in Moore's mini had a well constructed view of an afterlife, believed they had souls, believed they could hear from God, and believed that man no longer deserved to have a soul. As you stated they believe they are the new "chosen people"." And to make the only characters in the miniseries who express such sentiments the bad guys, that means that Moore is putting himself on an anti-religious footing that is totally contrary to the essence of TOS. When Moore talks of wanting to look to TOS for additional insight, as far as I am concerned he is just BSing the fanbase and trying to sucker them, just like his gimmick casting of Richard Hatch is nothing more than an attempt to BS the fanbase. |
Cylons = Al Queada = God's Chosen:
This would be in the mind of the cylon just as it is in the mind of the Islamic extremist. This would NOT imply they are God's chosen people or that Moore intends them to be. Soviets/Nazis: War on fascist states will never end. In that sense the relavance of the TOS set up is always relavant. Baathist Iraq, under Saddam Hussein was just another fscist state. The lack of relevance to today's audience is only in the fact that we do not feel threatened with destruction by a fascist state at this moment in time. There is no Soviet Union or Nazi Germany on the Earth today. The closest you can get is China and I doubt anyone goes to bed at night today worried about a surprise Chinese nuclear attack on America. The fact that by design Moore's cylon scenario is more relevant to an audience in 2003 does not detract from the scenario of TOS which aired in 1978-1979. If you want to believe SOASW has more overt references to religion then Moore's mini I can't stop what you believe even if it has no basis in reality. At this point in Moore's universe you have no idea what the religious beliefs of the main non-cylon characters are except Kara Thrace. In the mini we have colonial prayer, a speaking role from a person who is some form of priestess, an obviously religiously themed funeral ceremony, and a discussion of the soul. None of this occurred in SOASW. In SOASW we do not know the religious beliefs of any of the characters. The religious overtones of TOS do not positively manifest themselves until we see Lost Planet of the gods. We don't need to take a 180 degree stand on everything in the mini. When Moore says he wants to borrow things from TOS I assume he wants to make his versions as best he thinks he can so it has as wide an audience as possible so he can make as much money doing this series as long as he can. I don't think he sits up at night figuring out how he is going to sucker anyone. |
Quote:
"The lack of relevance to today's audience is only in the fact that we do not feel threatened with destruction by a fascist state at this moment in time. There is no Soviet Union or Nazi Germany on the Earth today." The evil ideology and the nature of a good/evil struggle without the rubbish of how "we brought it on ourselves" that is at the crux of the Moore miniseries is what makes TOS relevant to today and Moore utterly irrelevant. "If you want to believe SOASW has more overt references to religion then Moore's mini I can't stop what you believe even if it has no basis in reality." It has a lot more basis in reality (especially in light of how this series developed as envisioned by its creator and how it was consistent with what we saw in Saga) than any of your baseless arguments that Moore is looking to TOS for inspiration in his writing will ever have (like the "Sheba is Starbuck" bit) "In the mini we have colonial prayer, a speaking role from a person who is some form of priestess," Who is there as a ceremonial prop and placed in (along with Stardoe's prayer bit) only after Moore got a lot of heat over the blatant anti-religious tone of his script. "When Moore says he wants to borrow things from TOS" And this only makes him more reprehensible. He jettisoned everything about TOS in his miniseries and reveled in how different and better it was, and now he wants to rely on TOS as his crutch to compensate for his lack of originality. If he wanted to rely on TOS he should have kept his hands off the property and allowed it to be continued by those who appreciated it. |
Again if you have to go to the entire TOS series to support your argument not just SOASW it shows the invalidity of your point. We have not seen Moore's series so we do not know what overall impact religion will have either good or ill. Don't let your hatred of Moore and the mini blind you to rational discussion.
There is an element of "we brought it on ourselves" in SOASW as well. Baltar, a COLONIAL member of the council of 12 knowingly brought upon the destruction of colonial society. During Adama's talk with Apollo in which he defends his vote for Sire Yuri we see the shadow of a society that WAS great but descended into decadence. Later the naive and decadent Yuri again wants to give the colonials up to the cylons. I often wonder from the post I read if some hard core Moore-haters are more upset that Moore didn't use TOS themes are more upset that he may have or will use TOS themes. If Moore bases much of his series on TOS it is hard to keep the hate going and still believe in the reality some are constructing (Moore is an evil man who intentionally harms TOS fans.). I still don't understand why people who hate everything about the mini seek out or start mini specific threads. Everyone's free to do what they want but I will never understand it. It seems like an exercise in frustration to me. |
This topic come up with some regularity in BSG fandom discussions, even without reference to the RDM mini.
Every so often I have to point out that from a certain literalist, fundamentalist point of view, BSG TOS could be construed as being blasphemous in several ways. The notion that life was created "out there" is a good place to start. The notion that in this story, the "real" god created man somewhere else conflicts with rigid interpretation of Judeo-Christian scriptures. The notion of beings of light acting as angels, and that we may someday ascend to their level has some notions that grate against a conventional interpretation of scripture. I find it fascinating that certain conflicts with established religion are easier to overlook than the notion that the "bad guys" have a religion as well as the good guys. And also, in many of the old parables, it is often a "bad" actor that is driving the moral point home. |
I think its kind of pointless to argue religion in TOS vs the mini. Fans of the old show have 20+ episodes to draw from and the mini has only 1 (2 if you count the days seperate)
Until the new ones are seen, the mini may or may not have anything religious - we just don't know. From my point of view (based on the mini I now vaguely remember) the Cylons were the only ones to talk of God. I don't recall the Kara "prayer" and the priestess only had one line near the end. How will it play in the new series? Beats me. I just know I was uncomfortable with the minis tone (IMHO) that religion is somehow bad. If it was meant to show that blind faith to any religion is bad, it didn't register with me. What I got out of it was: Cylons - extremest religion-causing problems Humans - religious beliefs used to dupe the masses I didn't like either potrayal. |
Quote:
Quote:
"I often wonder from the post I read if some hard core Moore-haters are more upset that Moore didn't use TOS themes are more upset that he may have or will use TOS themes." I resent his hijacking the series according to a vision that is not like Galactica at all because of the supposed badness of the original and what it repreented, and then deciding to hijack those points again to twist into his distorted worldview that makes up his series universe. "I still don't understand why people who hate everything about the mini seek out or start mini specific threads. Everyone's free to do what they want but I will never understand it. It seems like an exercise in frustration to me." In my case, I didn't start this thread, I responded to what I regard as some very dubious arguments. I have seen you attempt to argue Ron Moore having a greater knowledge of TOS when he did the mini than the factual record indicates, and this seems to be another attempt to state that. For myself, the frustration will only end when (I hope) this series dies a quick death and then I can celebrate. |
Quote:
You make many good points, here, Darth. Now, a thought or two of mine -- I don't view the religious aspects of TOS as being especially problematic when viewing the show from the standpoint of a "non-Earth civilization". Even though, in TOS, it is stated that the Colonies and Earth share a common root, i.e., the Tribes of Kobol, is it not acceptable that each civilization could (and probably did) evolve with many divergent beliefs and customs? What may seem blasphemous, to a present-day, real-life resident of Earth may be completely acceptable to a being from a star system millions of miles away. In other words, to watch a show about a people, from another part of the galaxy, I 'suspend reality'. I don't judge everything said or done on present-day Earth norms. I view the religious aspects of the Mini-Series, in terms of the Cylons, as a means of giving legitimacy to their "jihad". I definitely view their assault on the humans as a holy war. Both, from what was said and done on the show, as well as the inspiration that Moore flat-out stated in his interview with Sandy (1st Moore interview with CA). He stated that he used 9-11 as a back-drop for the Cylon attack and said, to quote him, "read into it what you will". By his own inference, it said to me that he was portraying America in the guise of the Colonies and Al-Qaeda as the Cylons. I view the Cylon "religion" with much more importance to the show than the Colonial "religion" which has the look and feel of being a "last minute addition" to the script. In the end, I see the Mini-Series as being more Earth-related than TOS. It's almost as if the Mini-Series was a story about "us", several hundred years into the future. TOS, OTOH, gives the impression of a people with whom we may share some commonality but, are different from us, nonetheless. |
Quote:
Just look at the new series and the mini as any other TV show you don't care about and don't even think about. Let go of the hate. It isn't worth your effort. Leave the Moore world talk to those that are interested. We can all meet and be friends on all the TOS threads. Some threads cross both worlds. If you don't see it, just let it go. |
I can speak to your baseless and inflammatory accusations, antelope, since I, along with several others, helped found CFF.
Yes, we are TOS fans and disliked the mini - but nowhere in the CFF agenda is a campaign against it. Our agenda is focussed 100% on supporting a continuation movie. It's been stated, over and over again, and to have you suddenly pop up and question our motivations is extremely offensive. And the CFF campaign is not over - we have a few hundred dollars left to raise to buy a color ad in Daily Variety - something no fan group has done before. So before you start tossing out baseless accusations like that you'd damn well better get your facts straight. Keep it up and you'll find out exactly what a mad Dawg can do. I am Dawg :warrior: |
Quote:
I am not a literal Christian but think the hardest thing to square with reality is the thought that human life on Earth originates on another planet. This conflicts totally with human and non-human evolutionary science as we know it today. As a viewer I simply accept the premise as is and suspend reality on that issue. To me the Judeo-Christian and evolutionary science concepts of human origins could square with the show if Kobol in Lost Planet of the Gods is in fact Earth. Since the images seen are obviously the pyramids at Giza it is entirely possible that Kobol was Earth. Earth simply became unable to support life and humanity migrated to the stars. 12 colonies became the colonial world and the 13th became Terra, which is the Latin based language word for Earth anyway. Even in English I have seen that the that the word Terra is sometimes interchanged for Earth. I am sure if they wanted they could square the name Kobol with Earth. It could be an acronym for a future Earth based government or even the name of some future country that came to have dominion over the Earth. I never had a problem with the angels since their appearance may simply have been in a form we could understand. The war between Satan and God was alive and well in TOS as it is in the bible. |
Deleted by Antelope
:wtf: :erk: :duck: |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Ron Moore in effect sabotaged 25 years worth of hopes and dreams for a true continuation, and so long as his fake version remains in production he won't get any slack from me, and that is a view I hold no apologies for. It isn't "hate" it's a matter of principled conviction, and one that I and many others are proud to have. This is not about hating individuals as people and wishing for bad things to happen to them in their lives, it is about hating an impersonal project that has no feelings to hurt and hoping that it will not survive to supplant TOS in terms of what Battlestar Galactica is supposed to be about. Quote:
Those are my views, and you may call them harsh, but they are my convictions on this subject and I am sticking to them. That means if you want to push the idea that there are linkages between Moore and TOS, be prepared to defend what you say from those of us who know that that just ain't so. |
Quote:
There is one aim of CFF and its leadership: showing support for a TOS movie. Period. If you also liked the mini and are looking forward to the series, great. More power to you. We don't care. We have a very narrow view: if you liked TOS enough to want to see a continuation movie made, then you're part of CFF, too. The mini or the upcoming series, no matter how well it does or doesn't do, isn't part of that equation. Our personal views of the mini vary. These, however, are non-issues where CFF is concerned. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The success or failure of the CFF campaign won't be known, possibly for a year or more. This is an effort to show what kind of support there is for the movie. Period. I am Dawg :warrior: |
This thread is being closed until further notice. I will post a more detailed reason shortly.
BST |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
BTW: If you make another snide accusation toward a member here (all the CFF folks are), you may find yourself on a forced vacation. That comment was pushing the envelope. Quote:
Jewels whoops, BST hung out the closed sign while I was composing. :duck: he has the last word. |
Thanks, Jewels! :thumbsup: :)
Now, as promised, I've got a few things to say and I may NOT be as eloquent as Jewels! When debating an issue, the primary responsibility of ALL participants is to DEBATE the ISSUE, NOT PERSONALITIES!! The idea is that opponents in a debate are encouraged to gather facts and present arguments. The logic of the argument will indicate which will be the prevailing view. This particular topic was moving along at a nice pace, with various ideas and points of view being shared....UNTIL ...a remark was made questioning someone's integrity and intentions. A quick reply was made, in an effort to defend that "someone" ; however, no "defense" should have been necessary. The question about someone's integrity and intentions were NOT and are NOT part of this discussion. Furthermore, the person, whose integrity and intentions were questioned, has been accused, without provokation and without basis or merit. The person, who we all know as Commander Taggart, has stated PUBLICLY and FOR THE RECORD what the intent of the Colonial Fan Force is and how the monies collected will be spent. The contributor(s) know that before contributing. To allude to something sinister being fomented is insulting. To be absolutely clear on the issue, this type of "conversation" WILL NOT BE TOLERATED at Colonial Fleets. The only problem remaining is that the accusation is still available for public viewing, therefore, to set the record straight, a public apology should be issued, linking to the accusation. This can be considered a WARNING! BST |
I'm re-opening this thread, which deals with the issue of "Religion and the new BSG".
;) Happy debating! |
Getting back on the subject....
I'm not going to argue this, but try to place it better in context. I would like to remind people of two things that influenced the original into becoming a more faith based show than its sucessor. First of all is Glen Larson, who is a VERY religious man. His show reflects his strong beliefs. The show has no real obscenities. It has nothing really obscene, not by the good guys especially. And his faith is reflected in that the show pulls alot of elements from his religion. This Adam's Ark is basically Moses leading the Jews out Egypt were they were persecuted and toward the Promised Land. The Carrilon segment was basically the retelling of the jews, who when they reached the base of Mt Sinai declared themselves delivered from their persuers and did fall back into sloth and sin. But Moses saved them and lead them back on the path toward the Holy Land. 2nd, The show reflects a very popular book of its day, Chariots Of The Gods, which linked our history, religion and mythology to ancient visitations from outer space. And BG follows that weird connection between aliens from outer space, and godlike religious forces. The new show really hasn't defined its stance on religion. It has the colonials believing in a lie. While the cylons have some undefined sort of religious view. But right now we really don't know where it is going with this. :D |
Tom, the first part of the last post I have no dissenting or elucidating comment on.
But; Quote:
The notion (memory may be bad here...long term loss of short term memory) from Hand of God that humanity may evolve into godlike beings of light just as those beings crawled up the evolutionary ladder to a divine-like state could for some rob the divine of some of its splendor. Quote:
Quote:
But I would point out the old Abe Lincoln speech that was dusted off in the recent clash of cultures between the Western world and Dar al Islam. The speech pointed out the dichotomy of both of the opposing sides in the American Civil War praying to the same God for victory in a righteous cause. |
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:02 PM. |
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.11, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content and Graphics ©2000-Present Colonial Fleets