The Problem with Ronald D. Moore...
 

:cylon: :cylon: Like many, I am not only a fan of "Battlestar Galactica", but also of most things TREK (only exception: VOYAGER). I am very familiar with the episodes from both TNG & DS9. While I absolutely hate what Ron Moore had done to GALACTICA, I must concede that he did have a hand in many of the great/near great episodes of those shows (as well as some of the worst). As I said in a post a few days ago, I have always felt that "Tapestry" was TNG's finest hour, but I can no longer watch it without feeling overwhelming anger towards it's writer. Then, I began to wonder how someone that wrote that episode could have fallen to the depths seen with this reimagined GALACTICA. It was soon after that I figured it out: Ron Moore can't create characters on his own! Really, it's that simple. Looking through the NEXT GENERATION COMPANION, I see that Moore was responsible (in whole or in part) for these episodes:

The Bonding
The Defector
Yesterday's Enterprise
Sins of the Father
Family
Reunion
Data's Day
First Contact
In Theory
Redemption (I & II)
Disaster
Ethics
The First Duty
The Next Phase
Relics
Chain of Command (I)
Aquiel
Tapestry
The Chase
Rightful Heir
Descent (I)
Gambit (II)
The Pegasus
Thine Own Self
Journey's End
All Good Things...(I & II)

Some of these episodes are excellent, but I should point out that he hardly ever came up with the entire storyline. Usually, he only served as the scriptwriter. Still, I will not take away from the acomplishments. But, the truth is that he entered the writing staff during the third season. Despite the fact that TNG didn't really take off until halfway through the second season, the cast had a whole two seasons to shape their characters before Ron Moore even entered the picture. Once he did, he was writing for pre-existing characters. These were characters created with great care by Gene Roddenberry. As a writer, Ron Moore couldn't have been given a greater gift to work with.

Compare this to his "Battlestar Galactica". Michael Faries wrote in his script review that there were some well written scenes in it. Unfortunately, those scenes are for characters that are completely unlikable and unheroic. That's because Moore took names found in the original series, but he created his own characters for them. The results are way less than stellar. I cringe to think of what TNG would have been like had he had a role in creating the crew of the Enterprise D.

It is conceivable that, had Ron Moore opted for a continuation, he could have done some of the best work of his career. He would have had well defined characters from the original series to work with, and he could possibly written terrific dialogue for them. Unfortunately, he chose to go with his special blend of angst and dysfunction to create a family of characters just as despicable as the Osbournes. Viewers are already tuning out Ozzy and his annoying family. Hopefully, they will do the same with Ron Moore's GALACTICA.

Dan

He probably watched the first two seasons to see what the story was about. With Galactica he only watched the pilot episode. If he had watched the 22 episodes possibly he could have done a better job.

So Dan your saying
 

Ron Moore's the John Byrne of Hollywood writers. John Byrne has done some of comic books greatest works on stories in the early 80's with X-Men, The Fantastic Four The Avengers and the Superman revamp for DC comics in 1986. Although Byrne is talented doing creator owned work, he lacks the genius to do his own work in the comic field (he is not the only one though).

Yes Moore has gone good in his line of work no denying that. But he done more than alienate us with his interpretation of the Battlestar Galactica universe. True the stories in TNG were crafted well enough before Moore put pen to paper as a staff writer on that show. Not to mention, their are more writers onboard responsible for much of the dialogue spoken in an episode that just one writer of the scripts itself.

So like BSGDAN says why is old Moore Ron getting his version done besides his dumb uneven script concept of the BG universe. "Back stage politics" Moore despite his backing by Universal, his script wasn't correct with his take of BG and he wasn't even close to capturing the essense of Galactica, i.e. he's not the right person to do or approach Battlestar Galactica.

No matter all of the smarmy comments made by him in magazines and interviews or his cronies (TPTB) . Anyway if you live constantly on past glories of your body of work. You'll either make yourself out to be bigger than you really are or give in to the overblown ego you have ergo Ron Moore insisting "His way or the hightway route!"

Lets remember NO ONE WANTED GALACTICA 1980 ABC did that, because they didn't listen and cancelled the original BG. Now 2003 they won't listen again? meaning in layman's terms we're getting GALACTICA 1980 part 2 (with more crap this time)

Like most of us say, No way in hell thank you!

I don't think it's lack of skill in the character creation part. He did have to create all the minor characters in those TNG episodes. And those minor characters were not slack off Berman ones. They really had purpose and they moved the plot along.

No, the man's got tools, good ones at that. Most Trek fans are in favor of handing the Trek franchise over to him...that's how good he is.

But I'm as puzzled as you. I'm familiar with his work and just cannot believe he would do something like this to us Galactica fans. Given how kind and thoughful he portrays his characters, I just don't believe he could be so cruel. (An author's characters are often a reflection of the author.)

I'm convinced he's been put up to it by someone. Do I have any evidence? No. Just a gut feeling.

Bonnie Hammer
 

She is the brains behind Moore.

BSGDAN
 

I think what you say has merit. As I said a while ago in some long lost post, I thought that after reading the script that he took all the characters, put them in a blender and then pulled them back out. The same characters are there but they are all mixed up into different people. Come to think of it, most of the new characters he added were rather shallow. Overall the story wasn't bad, it was fast paced and exciting but it didn't do justice to BG. As you say, perhaps he could have done better if he used the existing characters and storyline as a starting point. The original characters had enough flaws to make them human, they don't need to be dysfuntional, as you say.
:colwar:

Geez...
I bet the swell of support for Moore wouldnt have materialized in the numbers that it had if the the discourse around this topic have been this reasonable from the beginning...

Anyway.
Roswell was apparently written well enough to generate a fanbase motivated enough to get it brought back for a third season.
Much like Star Trek fans saved the original series.
And 3 seasons aint bad for a Genera television show.

I'm sorry but if Moore had come aboard and been "set loose" and the result was a continuaiton story you tune would be diffrent.

Tom Desanto's only claim to fame at the time he was helming the continuation were Writing, Producing and Directing X-Men. Much like Moore with Trek, DeSanto developed a concept that had been created by Stan Lee & Marvel Comics.

Anyone who is a good writer is a good writer period.
Reguardless of the environent they work in, if they can put pen to pad and create a solid well put together story before the deadline they got skills.
Now there may be some kinks in story when a genera writer trys to cross into another genera but otherwise if you can write you can write.

Bottom line, Ron Moore can write and produce Televised Sci-Fi and Theatrical action and can do it well.
The script that was released to the public was indeed a well crafted and solid story.

Measured it in relation to the yardstick of the original Galactica then mebby even I would have to admit that, yeah it is pretty poor.
Taken as it is however, a retelling of that story from a 21st century perspective.
I have to say it is an pretty good piece of Science-fiction.
The overall themes of the original Galactica pilot are maintained for the most part, themes such as; Loss, tragedy, survival, friendship, family, spirituality.
Some do not figure as prominantly and others have been more fully developed.
There is no teen angst, nothing that remotly resembles Beverly Hills 90210.
If there is any similarity between this story and Star Trek it is superficial at most.

Themes
 

Moore has kept the story but somehow has managed to remove the likable aspects of the show. I would rather have a strong Athena character(Kelly Hu-They could say Athena was adopted) and maintain the original male characters as well.

Regardless of the ability of the writer, the quality of the script, or the portrayal of the characters, this one statement defines the difference between those that support the re-imagining and those that do not.

It is that one simple, five-word phrase that separates the two camps, and is the one item that will prevent us from ever completely reaching a peaceful compromise.

The reason for this is very simple. Outside this forum, we all have real lives. Some of us have spouses, children, bills to pay, jobs, and many other commitments that take up much of our time. In this age of "in your face" news broadcasting, we see it all! The good news and the bad. Hell, we even have front row seats to the WAR! In addition to that, we interact with many people, some that have emotional problems, substance problems, family problems, just to name a few. Suffice it to say that in our normal day-to-day routine, we see a great deal of "realism".

There was a line from the ST:TOS episode -- Shore Leave -- which states "the more complex the mind, the greater the need for the simplicity of PLAY". My, present-day, interpretation of this is that "the more REALISM that I see, the greater the need for ESCAPE". I can only deal with so much realism before it would consume me. I still haven't completely been able to achieve closure, on a personal basis, with the events of 9/11. Events like that and like the bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City shook me to the core. I was finally able to come to closure with Oklahoma City, but only by going there and standing at the fence surrounding "what used to be", reading the words of condolence, seeing the mementos left behind, recounting the senselessness of the event, tears streaming down my face the entire time.

That is why I need to occasionally retreat to a world of fiction, a world where there are HEROES, a world where GOOD stands a decent chance of defeating EVIL. Even if for only an hour a week.

How many of you have heard your parents tell stories of how simple life was like "in the old days"? Those were days when you could go to bed and, if you left your doors unlocked, so what, no one would bother you. The days when we didn't have to carry around PDA's, daily planners, cell phones or other types of things which map out our lives for us. The days when a handshake meant as much as a signed contract. The days when you could say "You have my word, ..." and it meant something. Those are the days that many of us long for.

In my opinion, THAT is what we are trying to re-capture. We want the words duty and honor to mean something. We want respect to mean something. We want to remind ourselves that there are good people in this world. We want to see the glass as "half-full"!

My friends, these words are not new. They have been stated many times, in a variety of ways, in this forum and others. For me, the words state what I want and why I want it. They don't come from my mouth, though, they come from the heart.


KTFF,

BST

That's just beautifully put, BST. I'm touched. And I agree completely.

I've seen and experienced so much, far and near, that I *need* a little bit of a place where there are moral certainties instead of more painful dysfunction. I don't need to watch it on TV, I live there. And I try to change those things in my world, however I can, but by the Lords, the little bit of encouragement, inspiration and fortification I get from the original BSG, and similar media, helps.

AMEN BST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Man, You nailed that on the head.

I get enough "Reality" in Real Life, I'd rather not turn on SciFi to get broken Homes, alcoholism, Insubbordination, Angst, and Dysfunction.

Occasionally the jiggling Sports Bra, but not in Galactica... :)

I'll buy into that, too,
 

BST, but I think there's more to it.

I'm with you - I want to retreat on occasion into another world when I need to decompress from this one; sci fi is the perfect place for that, because it hold the promise that humans will continue and thrive into the far future (despite our seeming headlong rush in the other direction).

I think that, for most of us, BSG came on at a very impressionable time (high school) - and now, with a revival in the works, we want to escape back to that time, recapture those feelings. We want the clear-cut heros and the big black line between good and evil, and characters we can root for or revile, each whole-heartedly, that we remember from our youth, when life was so much simpler and we did not have our adult responsibilities.

I'm not suggesting we want to actually go back to 1978 (although, if I knew then what I know now...) :naughty: We want, for an hour or two, to recapture what we felt 25 years ago as we watched this magnificent tale unfold.

Consider this, though: there has been 25 years of change between the original BSG and now. The technology to present the story has become almost magical compared to how it was in 1978. Imagine what Larson and company could have done with today's CGI, for just one example.

Then there's the 25 years worth of change in us. We (the entire viewing public) are profoundly more sophisticated than we were 25 years ago. We demand more complex stories, better writing, crisper presentation than ever before.

The thousands of us who were in our later teens and early 20s in 1978 and were diehard fans of BSG want to see that show resurrected in the same mold as we remember it. We want to see Richard Hatch as Apollo and Dirk Benedict as Starbuck (thier names, not callsigns). We really don't want to see any changes to what we remember so well and hold so dear to our hearts.

Most of us are realists, though, and realize that it just can't pick up where it left off. That's really where the arguments start. So many of us just want to see Richard as Apollo (and Dirk as Starbuck) again. The existing fanbase would eat that up, no question.

But what about those newcomers to BSG fandom? What is the best way to introduce them to BSG and what it has meant to us? They'll find the original episodes cheesy at best (hell, I find them cheesy) and, because of that change in sophistication, will find it easy to dismiss. Personally, I think a continuation, with Richard and Dirk along to mentor the new generation of warriors and colonists, would be a good way to go.

But then, the newbies miss out on the beginning of the story, the destruction of the 12 colonies, the formation of the rag-tag fleet, etc.

So, whose entertainment interests get placed first? The core of fans, the possible new, young audience? Or is there a way to blend the two?

There's the debate on BSG, my friends.

I sincerely apologize for the length of this post - I intended to do a paragraph of support and look what happened. :o

From the heart, as well.

I am
Dawg

"But then, the newbies miss out on the beginning of the story, the destruction of the 12 colonies, the formation of the rag-tag fleet, etc."

Not really- you just have to air the original show as well as the continuation. People would love that- to see Apollo as Fleet Commander, Starbuck training recruits or similar, and for a new fan to be able to simoultaneously watch their 'backstory'? What a treat for someone new to the BSG universe, who is introduced to it by a strong continuation which honors the original premise, and brings in a new generation of characters!

I disagree.

Tom DeSanto's prior claim to fame before "X-Men" and "X2" was working on "Apt Pupil."

I should point out: I have the first "X-Men" script - THE first one ever written. That script went through so many rewrites, it's dizzying. There were those aboard the "X-Men" production (I can name two in particular: Bryan Singer and Lauren Shuler Donner) who didn't fully grok the "X-Men." I hate to say it, but Mr. Singer relied heavily upon Mr. DeSanto's knowledge and deep passion of the "X-Men" history/comic books/property. Through thick and thin, he steered the production to a better success than it might have otherwise been. (In my opinion.) The fact that I like Tom has nothing to do with that; it's just my well-formed opinion. :p

Now, I know there are fans who were upset that the movie didn't follow continuity closely. In fact, "Spider-Man" followed the original continuity better than "X-Men." It could be argued that Mr. DeSanto and Co. destroyed the "X-Men" property with their "re-imagining." To that, I'd be debating a losing argument. I can say he worked hard to get items added to the script which honor the original; Mr. Moore can claim the same. It's a matter of perspective.

Where Mr. DeSanto's "Battlestar Galactica" was concerned, it started as a pitch which brought the original series back... but the network (FOX) did not want the original cast back. You can thank the close-mindedness of Sandy Grushaw at FOX (U.S.), among others, for that. In turn, the production moved along with an underground railroad effort, in my personal opinion to secure members of the original cast. (That was a VERY fun experience, btw. :) I miss those days in a weird way.) The script began to evolve over time to add certain folks back in... and lay the groundwork for others to appear.

When the time is right, I believe we'll see what he intended for "Battlestar Galactica." His version wasn't sex-free or violence-free. In fact, there are some outright brutal scenes which might disturb some -- and I might object to my children seeing some of it. (Unlike the pornographic "qualities" of the Ronald D. Moore BG remake script, though, where my children will not be watching it.)


Is that "on a good day?" (I couldn't resist.)

I maintain: Ronald D. Moore is a good writer. His "Battlestar Galactica" is not his best work. Far, far, FAR from it.

Michael
:colwar:

Well said, Darrell.

Michael
:colwar:

Tom was *CO* producer of Apt Pupil.
Again he was not working with his own material.

And I understand that it was his vision that kept the production as true to the source as it turned out.
Remember it was openminded fans like me who were behind him during his time at the Galactica helm.
It was the hard core fans that wanted him out.
I thought he was going to be the one who would bring the whole thing together.

And I was one of the X-Fans who went in expecting a shlock production.
I was upset from everything about it from no costumes to wolverine being too tall to Halley Bery as storm (i still hate her as storm).
About the only think i liked Was Steuart as Prof X.
By the time I came out of the theater i'd realized how wrong i was.
I'd thrown asside my misconceptions and am now a fan of Mr Desonto for life.

I'd learned a lesson then that mebby just becasue somthing is not everything that i want that it might still be pretty good.
Moore's galactica is not everything i want.
But from all that i know that is tangable (Script, FX, Cast) it has every every bit the potential as X-Men.
Moore is Coming as a veteran of Television Sci-Fi with 4.5 shows under his belt (most of them pretty good) as writer and producer.
About all i can hate him for is killing Captain Kirk in Generations.

You dont like his script because it is not the original galactica just admit that and stop trying to convince someone that it is not well put together.

And I'll say it again if this same story had been crafted as some kind of continuation scheme with your boi hatch in the lead you would go out of your way to praise it's edgyness.

You wrote "Tom Desanto's only claim to fame at the time he was helming the continuation were Writing, Producing and Directing X-Men." To which I responded, "I disagree. Tom DeSanto's prior claim to fame before "X-Men" and "X2" was working on 'Apt Pupil.'" I answered your question. Why are you arguing back about a co-producer credit? (?)


Let's clarify something here: The reason most hard core fans wanting him out was the lack of information about the production. Fear of the unknown was a catalyst here. We had two Hollywood A-list producers/director (DeSanto and Singer) hot on the heels of the "X-Men" who swooped in and announced a deal to do "Battlestar Galactica." Until then, fans were still pushing mainly for a Richard Hatch-oriented production. It shocked and scared a lot of folks who wondered how this BG production would turn out -- and with little detail being shared.

You had your reasons for supporting the DeSanto/Singer production when you did. Other fans needed more reasons/facts to throw their support behind it. Mr. DeSanto had a personal goal of keeping "the presents wrapped under the Christmas tree until Christmas morning when they should be unwrapped." Personally, I think a few presents needed to be unwrapped in July. ;) And that was an issue to the fans' support.

There were complications, as I cited before, on how the production proceeded to get where it needed to. There were numerous Catch-22 occurances. And it was understandable that many things couldn't be leaked outright, given the business dealings behind the scenes.

In the end, Mr. DeSanto's project would have likely enamored even the hard core fans. As one of them, I can say this. It stayed true to the original series; it was a riveting story; it didn't portray every character as dysfunctional; it had action, nostalgia, romance and drama.

Yes, I would have MUCH preferred Richard's version on-screen. Yes, I prefer an original series tie-in. One argument I have is: If Ronald D. Moore is an exceptional writer on work such as "Star Trek: TNG" and "Star Trek: DS9" for examples, with legacy characters, why couldn't he have written the BG original series characters? It seems to be his forte... Working with/writing for established characters. I keep hearing that from fans on both sides of the fence.


My "boi hatch"?

And "(I) would go out of (my) way to praise it's edgyness"?

Hito, I just lost a lot of respect for you.

If there's one thing I am, it's my own person. If Richard had delivered a sub-par script like that, filled with mostly unlikeable characters as Mr. Moore's script is, I'd let him know. I'd diplomatically state my own personal views on the matter, too, if asked. You've made some interesting judgments about my character which are your own... and quite incorrect.


I disagree: Read (or re-read) my December 2002 script review.

I've even posted my plot synopsis here at Colonial Fleets for how I'd change the current script (if it had to be a remake) to be more acceptable.

Michael
:colwar:

I for one don't like the script for several reasons.

The names as call-signs. Starbuck callsign for a female character? That's a new one on me.

Telephones on a battlestar! Heck yeah we're talking high tech here.

A virus distroys an entire fleet. Hello, we're all running microshaft winblows for our starships.. please. Today a single virus cannot take out all the computers of the world. OS's are different, firewalls are different, and that includes in the military and government. They use certain os's and firewalls depending on the level of security needed.

Sex, sex, and more sex. Then again we can't have enough sex. He should add more sex to make it a true porn instead of a softcore porn.... why again does he need all the sex to tell a story?

No space battles. Oh wait there are some poor excuses for space battles.. B5, star wars, and star trek had all sorts of space battles. so why would it be a copyright violation for BSG? Or at least that what the otherside is saying when they argue against space battles... very intense script.. seeing that the most advance weapon in the whole script is the neclear weapons employed by the cylons, there's not much in it to catch the my imagination.

To many real world issues. I get to see on screen what I see in real life. I'm sorry that's what I have cnn and shows like Law and order for. I like my sci-fi to be at least somewhat new and challeging. I want to use my imagination when watching sci-fi, to lose myself in another world far away. This script doesn't do that for me.

not that my opinion means anything...
 

I don't like the script.

I am angered that it invalidates the original series.

However those are two seperate feelings/opinions to me.

To explain further, one thing that struck me about Moore's script while reading it was how incredibly easy it would be to turn it into a 'Next Generation' type series set a couple of hundred years after ther original. To turn it into a prequel would take significant rewrites but it could have been turned into a distant sequel by only changing a hundred words. It even would have made the scripts references to the "original" vipers and the "early" Cylons make more sense. It would have been so easy. Had that been the case I fully admit I would not be angry right now because my favorite childhood series was not being invalidated.

However I still wouldn't like the script.

It's a mish-mashed pastiche of so many movies and shows. The characters are so unlikeable. All the things that have been said before... I may not be angry but I would still be disapointed that a show with so much potential was revived in such a sub-par way.

I have no problem with those that legitimately like the script. I hope everybody that does enjoys the show they are given. I however, don't like it. There's no "reason" why I don't like it except that I think it's bad.

Who doesn't? but Shatner did the movie himself and has part of the blame for his Kirk character death himself also! Wish it were otherwise but there it is.

:(

And thus my previous suspicions are confirmed...

Hito is the only person here with any common sense.

:eek: Neo! Invasion! :eek: :hack:

Yep, it's an invasion, an invasion of one.


Hey, that sounds like the army's new slogan.

une,

Would you care to expand on this statement?

(No offense, Hito!) I'd just like to hear une's point of view.

BST

Hito??????????
 

" And I'll say it again if this same story had been crafted as some kind of continuation scheme with your boi hatch in the lead you would go out of your way to praise it's edgyness."

Gee Hito, maybe next time you get your Knickers in a Wad over us asking about your boi moore, can i remind you about this line?

Ahem...
 

We've gotten a little off topic here, but......

Given the fact this is all happening in the real world, there are a couple of things we're ALL going to have to agree on:

1. None of us are going to be perfectly happy with what the result is. There will be something about the production that we won't like. The only way for each of us to be happy with the final product would be for each of us to be in charge of the movie, and that ain't gonna happen.

2. Regardless of what comes out in the end, it cannot invalidate what made BSG what it was, or why any of us are here.

Right?

Now, just a bit of clarification for Micheleh:

That's part of what I was saying before, though, that the original episodes come off a bit cheesy in today's terms. Don't misunderstand, I would LOVE to see Apollo as Fleet Commander, Starbuck as his loyal and able Exec, the others in mentoring roles. I'm just trying to think about it from the perspective of a brand-new viewer to the franchise. Grab 'em by the throat with the destruction of the colonies with today's story-telling technology.

Of course, that would also presuppose a decent script that was true to the spirit of the original, and it sure doesn't look like RDM's comes anywhere near that measure.

Anyway, that's my muddying of the waters for today. :)

I am
Dawg

Thanks Dawg, I thought the "Fleet Diplomatic Service" or Micheleh would have to send all the boy's over to The Cylon Aliance for a brief time out. Whew!

Welcome une! Discuss away. It's usually a friendly place here.

See I wouldn't really mind the re-make of the original if the script was well written which this is not. This is, to be honest, the worst script I have ever seen Ron Moore put out. I cannot believe that those people are Ron Moore supporters with this garbage he's putting out. If I was a support of his I'd be doing everything in my power to get him to rewrite this before it ruins his reputation as a writer.

Ouch Jewels
 

Do ya have to spank so hard.... :)