Anime debate

[Mustex]

Without actors you have nothing. Look at Nu Galactica. If you didn't have Callis and Hogan the show would be a joke. These two make it worth watching IMHO. Anime and cartoons are great when the stunts would be impossible for a live actor to do and CGI doesn't cut the mustard.

Thought I'd start with that quote. You would still have actors in anime. That's why so many fans insist on subtitles, because they believe the Japanese actors to be superior. This can have a huge effect on the way the character is portrayed (and often the animation is done to resemble the performance). For instance, watch both the American and Japanese versions of Inuyasha. For those of you who are unaware, Inuyasha is a half-dog demon, half human. In the American version the actor (who is actually pretty good) portrays him in a way that makes him sound like just an ordinary jerk. In the Japanese version the actor does his voice in a very scratchy manner that sounds like an animal.

Also, I mentioned over at Kingfish's board that the realism of TOS could be perfectly recaptured by anime. This was promptly twisted into "All TOS fans care about are special effect." By "realism" I was referring to the limitations placed upon the human body. This varies wildly from series to series, even within live action. The limitations on Luke Skywalker as a Jedi are obviously lower than Starbuck's, which are lower than a character on Star Trek.

Most Americans are just used to cartoons where all the characters have virtually no limitations on their bodies. In Japan however, this is quite different. On a show like Dragon Ball Z the limitations are almost non-existant, however before considering that the norm you should watch a little show called Blue Gender. Within this show the human body is actually more limited and fragile than it is in TOS. In one instance a van got flipped vertically. A woman fell to the back of the van, bumped her head, blood spewed from her mouth, and she died. It would be a simple matter to figure out the limitations on the characters of TOS, and perfectly simulate the feel of the flesh-and-blood people, only more artistically.

So, how is saying "anime can't do TOS" any different from saying "a black guy can't sing country music, because it was started by whites" (fun fact: Country music was actually invented by black slaves :D ). If you can perfectly simulate the feel of it, why not go for it.

*doesn't think even Pixar has sufficient software or hardware to capture the sheer expressiveness of Callis' face.*

BTW, Pixar is not anime. While the ships may be done CGI, and rendered Zoids-style into cell-format, the characters should be hand-drawn.

:Nsalute:

[nextceo]

If the anime was similar to Final Fantasy or Appleseed, maybe, otherwise I don't think an anime version would fly well...

[Dawg]

The actors in anime - or any other animation format - are voice actors. They are not able to use body language or facial expressions to convey emotion or whatever.

Hand-drawn or computer generated, they are still cartoons with voiceover dialogue - regardless of how sophisticated it might be.

And hand-drawn will be far more cartoonish than sophisticated CGI.

Once we get human-looking anime - and I mean barely distinguishable from actual humans - then we can talk about anime Galactica.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Darth Marley]

(fun fact: Country music was actually invented by black slaves :D ).


This makes me laugh.

<invective edited>

Suggesting that "country music" was "Invented" by decendants of Africa rather than the Scotch/Irish is absurd.

Get your facts straight.

[Rowan]

If the anime was similar to Final Fantasy or Appleseed, maybe, otherwise I don't think an anime version would fly well...
I would have to agree with you if it looked like either of those two I could go for that - pretty amazing stuff so realistic!!!

[Darth Marley]

Tron still looked like a cartoon, even with real live actors.

The amount of time it takes with current tech to create a few seconds of "realistic" footage without the human props we call actors is prohibitive.

[Titon]

CGI can accomplish more than you guys could ever imagine. Right now with Zoic out of the picture with the NuBG you can see a significant drop in overall quality but cgi takes a bad wrap from people because of just that. You get what you pay for and in the end it takes money to make things look good.

Everyone knows that character development lacks compared to a real actor but what more do you guys want. Doing a TOS Galactica in animation would be huge. You could see a world develop in front of you that all of us want to see. In my eyes Galactica is the perfect venue for animation. Look no further than what Warthog did with the Galactica game.

[nextceo]

I thought Zoic was still doing FX for TNS? Last I heard they were as noted in RDM's last Blog:

"Are you still working with Zoic for design work?"

RDM: Absofrakkinglutely.

I haven't noticed a drop in quality at all, particularly in eps 10, 12 & 13....

[cranky1c]

Sorry, still prefer people.

[jewels]

If the anime was similar to Final Fantasy or Appleseed, maybe, otherwise I don't think an anime version would fly well...
That's why I used Pixar as a litmus test. The do very expressive characters with CG type animation and even they would be hard pressed to capture some of the subtleties of expression (which a flirt like Starbuck requires) or just some of the lightning fast expressions that come over someone like Callis' face.

[Gemini1999]

I thought Zoic was still doing FX for TNS? Last I heard they were as noted in RDM's last Blog:

"Are you still working with Zoic for design work?"

RDM: Absofrakkinglutely.

nextceo -

Just to let you in on something... Titon works for Zoic - I'm sure if he says they are no longer doing the VFX, he would know better than Ron Moore does.

Best,
Bryan

[jewels]

I thought Zoic was still doing FX for TNS? Last I heard they were as noted in RDM's last Blog:

"Are you still working with Zoic for design work?"

RDM: Absofrakkinglutely.

I haven't noticed a drop in quality at all, particularly in eps 10, 12 & 13.... I've noticed them pacing things faster, the viper flight over the asteroid wasn't as tight as the Zoic done stuff, something in the asteriod's texture was less detailed for one, the conveyor tunnel structure not quite as solid feeling. The closeups of the Cylon base shown too quickly to take in detail. I think it's not as noticeable to the non-pro eye just because of the editing being so choppy. (I don't see it as much myself, only hints that make me wonder). They can get away with blurred, lower detail imagery because you barely get a chance to take in a scene. Less detail=less render time=cheaper effects at lower quality. (My pet peeve about the effects is I want more time to take them in.)

Also, they can still be "working with" Zoic, but have bugetarily forced Zoic to subcontract or work in only a supervisory role to a cheaper Canadian vendor. Zoic is still involved, but it's not really Zoic's work entirely.

I'm with Titon on animation not being a bad way to go for a continuation. It's growing in popularity. Movies like Robots are merging comedy with a bit of Sci-fi/fantasy. BG could be a bridge that blows open all sorts of possibilities for mainstream Sci-Fi. Use the benefit of seeing how the Japanese have turned it into an adult medium, with character development and use the mind blowing level that CG effects can bring to an action sequence. I would want it to be like appleseed and not hand-drawn. Very little is hand-drawn these days anyway.

[Darth Marley]

I had heard mention that one of the effects shots from the mini was cut and used in an episode of the series.
If you look at the DVD extras, it makes sense to conclude that some of the effects for ep 10 were cut from that scene originally done for the mini. Maybe.

"Atmosphere Visual Effects" is the Vancouver effects company that did the effects in that ep, as well as 9, 12, and 13.

Lee Stringer comments at www.starshipbuilder.com:

Well the first season was finished just before xmas, as much as possible new shots were created for each episode, but alot of shots had to be used from the mini to save money. Also it should be known that only just over half the new fx shots in the first season were done at Zoic. Two companies in Canada were also hired (no comment! :-)) 24FEB05

[Rigel_No_6]

Myself, I'm a big anime fan, and have really gotten into in it the last year or so due to both Adult Swim and G$TTV airing really good anime series: Wolf's Rain, Witch Hunter Robin, Read or Die, Last Exile, InuYasha, and Ghost in the Shell just to name a few. Appleseed is another example of feature length approaches to this same genre of stortytelling with brutal reality and not just large eyed characters acting like idiots.

The anime that we see here in the US is just the tip of the iceberg, and most of it is not the top quality series which air in Japan. Japan has an enormous sub-culture industry of Anime, animated shows in which they have everything from children's programming, adult action shows, to very adult shows (pornography); and Manga, printed series like comics but more violent/adult subject matter.

Anime characters and storylines can be dark and complex, just like movies. In the better series, characters sometimes die tragic and violent deaths, there are consequences from their decisions which come back to haunt characters, they have regrets, problems, issues, and series typically have endings, not continuing on forever (with the exception of InuYasha) pulling dead rabbits out of hats. I'd rather watch decent anime than lots of bad TV series, reality shows, cheaply rushed made for TV movies, which seem to rule the day on the big three networks.

I think anime would be good to fill in the stories that TNS and even TOS won't have time or money to tell, similar to the Clone Wars series for Star Wars, or the AniMatrix for the Matrix series. It should be noted that having BSG anime would draw new fans to either series.

I don't think it could ever be mainstream enough to become the core storytelling device, and that's really not in it's best interest. It should just be a stand alone series, to tell additional stories, adding to the mystique of the entire world that is BSG.

Rigel

[Fragmentary]

Just to let you in on something... Titon works for Zoic - I'm sure if he says they are no longer doing the VFX, he would know better than Ron Moore does.

As of a week ago, Ron Moore said that Zoic would continue to be the primary FX company for the coming season. Seems odd that the guy who signs the checks would be wrong about that.


I don't think it could ever be mainstream enough to become the core storytelling device, and that's really not in it's best interest. It should just be a stand alone series, to tell additional stories, adding to the mystique of the entire world that is BSG.
Something along the lines of the Riddick and Van Helsing animated DVDs that came out at the same time as the movies did? I didn’t see either of those, but I thought the idea was pretty intriguing. What would people think of a straight to DVD animated Galactica series?

[Rigel_No_6]

Frag - In this same vein, where does your avatar come from? I was thinking it came from an animated version or another short of TOS but based on the dialogue here (and elsewhere), that doesn't seem to be the case.

I've been meaning to ask you that and this thread is relevant enough to finally serve my curiosity...:D

Rigel :Nsalute:

[Mustex]

Hand-drawn or computer generated, they are still cartoons with voiceover dialogue - regardless of how sophisticated it might be.

And hand-drawn will be far more cartoonish than sophisticated CGI.

You obviously haven't seen Blue Gender. Not only is it infinately less cartoonish than Toy Story and Finding Nemo, in fact it is far less cartoonish than TOS.

[Mustex]

This makes me laugh.

<invective edited>

Suggesting that "country music" was "Invented" by decendants of Africa rather than the Scotch/Irish is absurd.

Get your facts straight.

The only instrument on Earth similar to the banjo is an instrument from Africa. They also had a kind of fiddle. When they were brought over here, any slaves who could use the fiddle were taught the violen (similar principle). While they were play violen music at their masters' parties, they invented their own style of fiddling that they played around the slave cabins (the violinists hated it). They also built banjos.

After slavery ended, many of them headed into the mountains. The hillbillies hadn't kept slaves anyway, and so they were especially rascist, and they considered music to be a matter of taste rather than race. They quickly found that they had quite a taste for this new "black" music, and picked it up. Then, decades later, some record producers came to record moutain music. They didn't even look at the blacks, who they assumed would play something different than the whites (and I guess they assumed it would be crappy). So they recorded white hillbillies playing music they learned from blacks.

I learned this on the CMT documentary Waiting in the Wings, so argue with them if you disagree.

[Mustex]

Myself, I'm a big anime fan, and have really gotten into in it the last year or so due to both Adult Swim and G$TTV airing really good anime series: Wolf's Rain, Witch Hunter Robin, Read or Die, Last Exile, InuYasha, and Ghost in the Shell just to name a few. Appleseed is another example of feature length approaches to this same genre of stortytelling with brutal reality and not just large eyed characters acting like idiots.

The anime that we see here in the US is just the tip of the iceberg, and most of it is not the top quality series which air in Japan. Japan has an enormous sub-culture industry of Anime, animated shows in which they have everything from children's programming, adult action shows, to very adult shows (pornography); and Manga, printed series like comics but more violent/adult subject matter.

Anime characters and storylines can be dark and complex, just like movies. In the better series, characters sometimes die tragic and violent deaths, there are consequences from their decisions which come back to haunt characters, they have regrets, problems, issues, and series typically have endings, not continuing on forever (with the exception of InuYasha) pulling dead rabbits out of hats. I'd rather watch decent anime than lots of bad TV series, reality shows, cheaply rushed made for TV movies, which seem to rule the day on the big three networks.

I think anime would be good to fill in the stories that TNS and even TOS won't have time or money to tell, similar to the Clone Wars series for Star Wars, or the AniMatrix for the Matrix series. It should be noted that having BSG anime would draw new fans to either series.

I don't think it could ever be mainstream enough to become the core storytelling device, and that's really not in it's best interest. It should just be a stand alone series, to tell additional stories, adding to the mystique of the entire world that is BSG.

Rigel

Well, closest thing I have to an ally so far.

:Nsalute:

[Mustex]

BTW, go here for some Blue Gender trailers. This is the level of realism I'm talking about:

http://bluegender.com/

Also, anime provides another advantage that live action doesn't give. In the case of live action if you want to have a "clean" and "dirty" version, you have to plan for it. For instance, you can't have nudity in a scene that's overly important to the plot if you want to edit it down for kids.

However, back when Cartoon Network was showing the 08th MS Team it had a problem. There was a scene in which the main character saw a girl swimming nude, and she shot at him. Other plot points wouldn't make sense without this scene. The solution: Just draw a bikini on her (have it be done in a tint that drastically conflicts with everything around it, so all the adult viewers know what happened). This could be worked for a TOS series. I'm not proposing that there should be nudity in the TOS continuation, but if you want to call it adult, a bit of blood here and there helps. Then if you want to air it on daytime Cartoon Network, you can just edit it out. It's alot harder to digitally paint out blood.

[Gemini1999]

BTW, go here for some Blue Gender trailers. This is the level of realism I'm talking about:

http://bluegender.com/

Mustex -

Tom and I had a conversation about Blue Gender last year when I discovered the series thru Netflix.com. You might want to check the Anime discussion forum of Fleets:

http://battlestargalactica-fleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7775


Blue Gender is indeed one of the best examples of modern animation technique - but it's definitely not for kids...

Best,
Bryan

[Mustex]

Mustex -

Tom and I had a conversation about Blue Gender last year when I discovered the series thru Netflix.com. You might want to check the Anime discussion forum of Fleets:

http://battlestargalactica-fleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7775


Blue Gender is indeed one of the best examples of modern animation technique - but it's definitely not for kids...

Best,
Bryan

That's what I've been saying. It's exactly the style that I'd like to see for a TOS continuation (the blood would need to be toned down a bit, although for a TNS anime...MARLENE AND YUJI ARE BACK IN ACTION!).

:Nsalute:

[Titon]

As of a week ago, Ron Moore said that Zoic would continue to be the primary FX company for the coming season. Seems odd that the guy who signs the checks would be wrong about that.

Hmmm, then someone better tell Lee Stringer to move back to the states? He moved to England last month since Zoic is no longer involved in the FX. He is now working with Ron Thornton on Captain Scarlet. On second thought maybe someone should tell Enigma and Atmosphere in Canada that Zoic is still in charge. The Hand of God episode was all Enigma and Atmosphere.

He might be telling people that and yes Zoic might be there as consultants but i'll tell you with out a doubt right now that Zoic is not the FX company in charge. Has not been for months.

;)

Oh and one more thing, you think Ron Moore is writing the checks? Professionally speaking if it *was* up to him Zoic would be still doing the FX. Zoic costs to much.

[peter noble]

Hmmm, then someone better tell Lee Stringer to move back to the states? He moved to England last month since Zoic is no longer involved in the FX. He is now working with Ron Thornton on Captain Scarlet.

Yes!!! I've been watching the new Captain Scarlet with my six-year-old nephew Thomas and we love it!! Thomas even likes the old Anderson shows and plays with the toys.

Uncle Peter's got to get him a Skybase for Christmas.

If Captain Scarlet comes over to the States, watch it, it's great family entertainment for kids and adults alike and a pretty faithful remake to boot!

Peter

[Rowan]

Didn't we have a discussion on this issue before? http://battlestargalactica-fleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8438&highlight=anime+BSG
:D

[Darth Marley]

Waiting in the Wings[/i], so argue with them if you disagree.

No, you are spouting off things that are not true, so I am taking it up with you.
Get used to it, you are going to be called on it when your facts are wrong.

Banjo did indeed come from the African slaves.

The notion that the "fiddle" came from Africa rather than the European violin is plain historical revisionism. As a hypothesis, it doesn't pass the laugh test.
Similar instrument, and of course, changes in styles from the slaves, certainly that happened. But, saying the slaves had an influence on country music is very different than saying it is derived from the slaves.

The existance of traditional Scottish and Irish tunes being in the history of Appalachian music, with no examples of "African" themes is the basis for the claim that Scotch/Irish influences are the backbone of "country" music. We can actually go to Ireland and Scotland and find similar music. You cannot do the same with Africa.

You shouldn't believe everything you see on television.

[cranky1c]

Darth's right. You can plausibly trace the roots of American gospel, soul, funk, jazz and hip hop back to slavery and even back to Africa itself, but country is a European descendant.

Sorry for the OT

[Titon]

Uncle Peter's got to get him a Skybase for Christmas

Take a close look at the Skybase launch tube landing sections Peter. The pads where the vehicles come up from inside.

I built that little sucker.

;)

[kingfish]

CGI can accomplish more than you guys could ever imagine. Right now with Zoic out of the picture with the NuBG you can see a significant drop in overall quality but cgi takes a bad wrap from people because of just that. You get what you pay for and in the end it takes money to make things look good.

Everyone knows that character development lacks compared to a real actor but what more do you guys want. Doing a TOS Galactica in animation would be huge. You could see a world develop in front of you that all of us want to see. In my eyes Galactica is the perfect venue for animation. Look no further than what Warthog did with the Galactica game.



I played the game from start to finish. The CGI Vipers, Raiders and space battles were excellent. This is a wise use of CGI. However human actors are needed to covey the story. Hatch had live actors in Second Coming. The only CGI actor was Lorne Greene in a hologram conveying Adama's last wishes. Tom DeSanto had live actors Dirk and Herb and possibly a few other old school BG actors reprising their roles.

[Mustex]

The notion that the "fiddle" came from Africa rather than the European violin is plain historical revisionism. As a hypothesis, it doesn't pass the laugh test.
Similar instrument, and of course, changes in styles from the slaves, certainly that happened. But, saying the slaves had an influence on country music is very different than saying it is derived from the slaves.


There you go rewriting my post. I didn't say the fiddle came from Africa, simply that they had an instrument similar to it. When the masters saw this, they had them learn the violen (close enough to be an easy transition). At the master's parties they played traditional violen music, but around the cabin they fiddled.

:Nsalute:

[Darth Marley]

Fact is, I have not tried to rewrite your post.

I have corrected a factual error in yours.

My comments about the origin of the "fiddle" come from looking at other sites that make the dubious claim that slaves were allowed to bring their instruments with them as "carry-on" luggage during their voyage to North America.

CMT documentary or no, the claim that country music was "invented" by slaves is false.

Now, about anime, just because you or anyone else thinks that it would be a superior choice doesn't make it so, as suitability is in the eye of the beholder.

It is likely that in the future, dead celebrities will be mimiced to perfection in movies as well as vacuum cleaner ads.

Many people will always prefer the "organic" feel of filmed actors, just like analog LPs are claimed by many to have superior sound quality to sampled digital CDs.

[Dawg]

Yes. Back to the anime discussion, since that is the topic of this thread.

Thanks for posting that Blue Gender link, Mustex; I hadn't seen that. I watched the trailer with some interest.

I also agree with Titon, that computer animation can work wonders. I think the SFX we're seeing are a testiment to that. I remember as I was watching LOTR forgetting that Gollum was animated (over the movements of an actual actor, yes, but animated nonetheless). And of course it's now giving physical model-based SFX a run for its money.

But Blue Gender is a cartoon, however sophisiticated it might be. There is no mistaking it for anything but a cartoon. Its roots are in hand-drawn animation - Speed Racer and Mickey Mouse - and those roots are plainly evident.

Give us CGI of the level of Gollum, though, where you can't be entirely sure if it's a live actor or an animated one, coupled with Zoic-level SFX, and I'll support an anime BSG whole-heartedly. But until we reach that level of sophistication, I do not believe anime is an appropriate medium.

(FWIW, I didn't particularly like the ST animated show, either.)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[peter noble]

Take a close look at the Skybase launch tube landing sections Peter. The pads where the vehicles come up from inside.

I built that little sucker.

;)

Wow. Way cool!

Peter

[peter noble]

Give us CGI of the level of Gollum, though, where you can't be entirely sure if it's a live actor or an animated one, coupled with Zoic-level SFX, and I'll support an anime BSG whole-heartedly. But until we reach that level of sophistication, I do not believe anime is an appropriate medium.

After seeing a second batch of Last Exile episodes today, I'd have to disagree with my esteemed colleague.

It's not about sophistication, it's about the story mainly. Watching Last Exile made me think back too the original version of Star Wars and BSG, I got the same buzz from it. The combination of traditional cell animation, computer generated cell animation and traditional CG model vehicles and a cracking story and interesting characters can really draw you into what's on screen.

Just lately I've been seeing a lot of anime that is way beyond anything you see in live action SF – and comedy/romance strangely enough.

Peter

[Dawg]

Well, I don't know - I've never been a huge fan of cartoons pretending to be live action, although I remember the original Johnny Quest and Speed Racer half-hours fondly. In my adult years I've not spent much time watching the various forms of animation.

Give me Loony Tunes any day of the week.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not shutting the door on any quality BSG production, but I believe the correct venue to bring back Battlestar Galactica is the big screen - live action. Not a cartoon.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Darth Marley]

Either version of BSG, and the ST;TAS shows, when they had problems, the problems were with the writing.

ST:TAS might have been a bitter pill, even if the writing were improved, and the voice recording was not done in a rush in public restrooms, chasing Shat down.

And animated BSG could be done well. But for those that are intent on "original cast" it would leave a void.
And that is the thing, different people are in to the show for different reasons.

[Gemini1999]

After seeing a second batch of Last Exile episodes today, I'd have to disagree with my esteemed colleague.

It's not about sophistication, it's about the story mainly. Watching Last Exile made me think back too the original version of Star Wars and BSG, I got the same buzz from it. The combination of traditional cell animation, computer generated cell animation and traditional CG model vehicles and a cracking story and interesting characters can really draw you into what's on screen.

Just lately I've been seeing a lot of anime that is way beyond anything you see in live action SF – and comedy/romance strangely enough.

Peter -

I would agree wholeheartedly with you on that one. Last Exile is one of the most sophisticated anime shows that I've ever seen. The combination of 2D and 3D CGI VFX along with the traditional Anime-style characters is nothing short of breathtaking. The first 5 episodes give me a thrill no matter how many times I've seen them.

What you say about story content is also true. The complex character relationships in the storylines for both Last Exile and RahXephon make watching them completly worthwhile. Both shows are so satisfying on a story level and character development, that 3D CGI characters aren't really necessary

While what John says about Gollum is quite true, the level of CGI that is evident in today's filmmaking is proof that you can have a complete CGI character, there is one reminder - there was an actor on set for those scenes as I recall, just replaced with a digital one. I remember watching the Final Fantasy film and being amazed, but I was also staggered to find out that it took 5 years to complete the film due to it's complex nature.

I would be happy with a BSG feature film along the lines of Last Exile - the 2D & 3D CGI modeling was very impressive and less expensive than a full CGI film.

Best,
Bryan

[repcisg]

While the jury may be still out on Aname as a vehicle for a BSG continuation. CG itself is advancing rapidly in quality and falling in cost. There will ocme a day, in the not too distant future when the indivudual mill be able to rpoduce his/her own show.

I know this may sound far fetched today, but looking back at where we started from and how far we've come in such a short period of time. The direction is clear, the line between computer generated and real will vanish.

[thomas7g]

If the anime was similar to Final Fantasy or Appleseed, maybe, otherwise I don't think an anime version would fly well...

I'm just popping in here to add one small bit of info. There is a TON of anime done in a style similiar to FF and Appleseed. Most usually aren't as expensive, but there are hundreds of animes like that over the years. But I learned as an animation student most americans only see the kiddie versions like Dragonball, cause most americans believe animation is for kids. So the serious drama styled animes don't air on tv so most people don't get exposed to the bulk of anime.

There already are Battlestar Galactica styled animes out there. They just don't air here.

:)

[Mustex]

Many people will always prefer the "organic" feel of filmed actors, just like analog LPs are claimed by many to have superior sound quality to sampled digital CDs.

Blue Gender feels 100% organic. Throughout the entire twenty-something episode run, I only caught one case of a character's eyes growing slightly larger than they should.

:Nsalute:

[Mustex]

Yes. Back to the anime discussion, since that is the topic of this thread.

Thanks for posting that Blue Gender link, Mustex; I hadn't seen that. I watched the trailer with some interest.

I also agree with Titon, that computer animation can work wonders. I think the SFX we're seeing are a testiment to that. I remember as I was watching LOTR forgetting that Gollum was animated (over the movements of an actual actor, yes, but animated nonetheless). And of course it's now giving physical model-based SFX a run for its money.

But Blue Gender is a cartoon, however sophisiticated it might be. There is no mistaking it for anything but a cartoon. Its roots are in hand-drawn animation - Speed Racer and Mickey Mouse - and those roots are plainly evident.

Give us CGI of the level of Gollum, though, where you can't be entirely sure if it's a live actor or an animated one, coupled with Zoic-level SFX, and I'll support an anime BSG whole-heartedly. But until we reach that level of sophistication, I do not believe anime is an appropriate medium.

(FWIW, I didn't particularly like the ST animated show, either.)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

As for CGI, there's another option involving that. Most purely CGI animation looks cheesier than hand-drawn (or at least I think so, the exception is maybe Shrek and other major motion pictures, but weekly series like Max Steel and Action Man look dumb and choppy), however the Japanese starting using CGI to do spaceships and mechas, while still doing characters and backgrouds by hand. For a while this led to a sharp contrast that was annoying (see Blue Submarine No. 6), but new techniques were created for Zoids, which allowed the two to be integrated flawlessly.

:Nsalute:

[Mustex]

Either version of BSG, and the ST;TAS shows, when they had problems, the problems were with the writing.

ST:TAS might have been a bitter pill, even if the writing were improved, and the voice recording was not done in a rush in public restrooms, chasing Shat down.

And animated BSG could be done well. But for those that are intent on "original cast" it would leave a void.
And that is the thing, different people are in to the show for different reasons.

Hey, I just thought of something. If all the living actors returned, would anyone mind recasting Adama and Baltar?

:Nsalute:

[Mustex]

I'm just popping in here to add one small bit of info. There is a TON of anime done in a style similiar to FF and Appleseed. Most usually aren't as expensive, but there are hundreds of animes like that over the years. But I learned as an animation student most americans only see the kiddie versions like Dragonball, cause most americans believe animation is for kids. So the serious drama styled animes don't air on tv so most people don't get exposed to the bulk of anime.


If Blue Gender was kiddie, then I'm scared of what those sickos have thought up. ;)

:Nsalute:

[bsg1fan1975]

Sorry, still prefer people.

cranky, I agree with this. I prefer real people over anime or cartoons! You connect better to the story!

[Mustex]

cranky, I agree with this. I prefer real people over anime or cartoons! You connect better to the story!

Actually, with adult anime I find you often connect better. And could we please not use the word "cartoon" in this thread, it comes with too-many preconcieved notions.

Unfortunately, that's all Americans seem to want to watch anime for. So far the gross of all theatrically released anime movies in the US is $195 million, and over half of it comes from the first two Pokemon movies!

[bsg1fan1975]

Actually, with adult anime I find you often connect better. And could we please not use the word "cartoon" in this thread, it comes with too-many preconcieved notions.

Unfortunately, that's all Americans seem to want to watch anime for. So far the gross of all theatrically released anime movies in the US is $195 million, and over half of it comes from the first two Pokemon movies!

Sorry but I still prefer to see people over any drawn form, cartoon or anime! You get more reaction out of watching live people then you do by listening to something or see some drawing moving their mouths to someone else's voice!

[bsg1fan1975]

Ok... time to chime in with my opinion on an anime version.

I see the talk about a CGI Continuation, with various levels of "realistic CGI" mentioned, Gollum of Lord Of The Rings being at the forefront.

Did anyone posting in this thread watch the special features on the DVD's on how Gollum's movements were done?

They had a live person actor do the moves, etc and they tracked them, creating the motions for the CGI character. THis was a good choice/way of doing it for Gollum, because Gollum does not look human.

There were also lots and lots of background CGI characters. This also was good, as they were sen at a distance and were used to expound on the sizes of the armies.

*BUT* when it comes to doing this for BG, I say no way.

As stated before, Gollum did not look human, so CGI worked for him.

But the actors in BG *are* human, and to make them look as realistic as possible, you'd have to motion capture an actor for the CGI characters movement. In other words, still hire a live person to do the movements. Now... who better to do the movements of Apollo, than Richard Hatch? Who better to do the movements of Starbuck than Dirk? No one knows the characters better than they do.

So... if you hire them for the movements for motion capture, why not just have them play the role in the first place? Thus you're back to live action.

Film all of the live actors on green screens, then intergrate them into CGI backgrounds.

CGI backgrounds/buildings, etc *can* look realistic enough, so real sets and locations wouldn't really need to be done.

But there'd never be any way the correct motion capture for the actors could be done unless the actors themselves did it. So if they are hired to do it, then go ahead and let them o their roles in live person.


preciseley! If my memory also serves me correct didn't they have to do that with Jabba on the Star Wars movies before he was done by CGI in the special editions?

[Fragmentary]

Here’s the problem. People suggest animated alternatives because that gives you the one thing that using the real actors can’t. You can make a series that deals with all of the original characters in the original setting. To go with Hatch as Apollo and so on, you have to concede the need to cast a younger generation of actors as well as including some recognizable stars to draw audiences (maybe as Baltar or Cain). With an animated version you don’t have to do any of that. You can have every single one of the surviving original cast come back to do the voices for their animated alternatives. Plus the story can pick up anywhere. You aren’t forced to set it 25 years later and be burdened with a mountain of exposition to catch the audience back up.

An animated version frees you from all of the restrictions that having to cast semi-retired actors with virtually no name recognition create. For voice over work, they don’t need to be recognizable or in shape or even still acting.

I understand, that in the best-case scenario, we would get the continuation with the real actors in the flesh, but look at it as a business decision. If you’re the head of a major studio and you are given these two options, which one has less risk and more potential return? A big expensive science fiction movie where in half of the cast are former TV stars from the 70s and 80s, or an animated movie free to explore to the Galactica universe in any way at anytime without requiring that the audience have seen the original show?

[bsg1fan1975]

sorry but anime is still not the way to go with a TOS continuation!

[Eric Paddon]

The real problem with anime from my standpoint (as applied to TOS, so please let's not hear anyone call this a slam on anime in general) is that in light of all else that has happened it would just reek of being given a stale leftover from a banquet table we spent years preparing and then got locked out of at the last minute.

To me, seeing any kind of animated version is just seeing a comic book with voices and comic books fall into the "been there, done that" category of TOS, as we have had three comic book versions, and I have never confused any of them with something that I would consider to be a definitive satisfying of the desire to see TOS continued.

[Eric Paddon]

So true! I really don't understand this assumption that desire for a TOS continuation requires a belief that the principal TOS cast would have to be our leads in such a project. That's never been how I understood it, it was simply a desire to continue the storyline of this universe however many yahrens later it happens to be with enough TOS cast members in place to provide continuity and to clear up some loose ends from the past (Apollo and Sheba; Starbuck and Cassie) but to let a new group take center stage if that's what the best solutiuon is now that so many years have past.

In that respect, we were always willing to adjust to the realities of what existed the more years we became removed from TOS.

[Mustex]

sorry but anime is still not the way to go with a TOS continuation!


You're still not getting it. Anime is the way to go with everything. Hopefully live-action is just a passing fad we won't have to put up with much longer, and the next hundred years with belong to anime (mostly hand-drawn, with CGI augments).

:Nsalute:

[Mustex]

The real problem with anime from my standpoint (as applied to TOS, so please let's not hear anyone call this a slam on anime in general) is that in light of all else that has happened it would just reek of being given a stale leftover from a banquet table we spent years preparing and then got locked out of at the last minute.

To me, seeing any kind of animated version is just seeing a comic book with voices and comic books fall into the "been there, done that" category of TOS, as we have had three comic book versions, and I have never confused any of them with something that I would consider to be a definitive satisfying of the desire to see TOS continued.

What if they did the rest of TNS anime too? That way the TOS fans would be equals to the TNS fans, Universal could cut costs, and I'd live the rest of my life in absolute bliss.

[Eric Paddon]

Oh yes, let's just have a world where there is only one art form of visual entertainment to be foisted down on all of the world's population because one person happens to think that's the only appropriate form of visual entertainment there should be and he insists there be no diversity whatsoever and choice for people.

[Mustex]

Oh yes, let's just have a world where there is only one art form of visual entertainment to be foisted down on all of the world's population because one person happens to think that's the only appropriate form of visual entertainment there should be and he insists there be no diversity whatsoever and choice for people.

EXACTLY! :)

:Nsalute:

[Eric Paddon]

Mustex, it amuses me to no end that you'd like to hoist yourself on your own petard.

[Mustex]

Mustex, it amuses me to no end that you'd like to hoist yourself on your own petard.

I frequently joke about taking over the world. Keep in mind that everything I say is half-serious (I do think anime deserves more respect than it gets, and that it's a perfectly legitimate medium for anything, but I don't want to see live-action completely vanish).

[dec5]

Without actors you have nothing. Look at Nu Galactica. If you didn't have Callis and Hogan the show would be a joke. These two make it worth watching IMHO. Anime and cartoons are great when the stunts would be impossible for a live actor to do and CGI doesn't cut the mustard.

If you mean the new BSG...for me and a lot of reviewers anyway....Boomer is a huge
reason to watch the show.....especially in the finale this year.......Woah......

Bravo Grace Park!!!!


Speaking of Anime...I think who ever designed the "look" of the new BSG, probably
watched Macross Plus....... From the helments to the coat and tie look of the folks
in New Eden. Caprica at least has the "feeling" of the Macross Anime.


Picture of the Helment design:

http://www.boomspeed.com/dec55/macplus3.jpg

[BST]

So true! I really don't understand this assumption that desire for a TOS continuation requires a belief that the principal TOS cast would have to be our leads in such a project. That's never been how I understood it, it was simply a desire to continue the storyline of this universe however many yahrens later it happens to be with enough TOS cast members in place to provide continuity and to clear up some loose ends from the past (Apollo and Sheba; Starbuck and Cassie) but to let a new group take center stage if that's what the best solutiuon is now that so many years have past.

In that respect, we were always willing to adjust to the realities of what existed the more years we became removed from TOS.


This is unfortunately one of the largest misconceptions about the wants and desires of the TOS folks. While I, personally, would love to see as many as possible *reprise* their roles, by no means do I want to see a *return to the '70's*. I have always looked at a possible continuation as one with a "next generation" feel to it. The original principals would still be there, if interested, and would be handing off to the next generation of warriors, etc.

The timeline would be continued (the "what happened to them" would be revealed) and, at the same time, new characters and adventures would be created. All would be well with the universe.

;)

[Fragmentary]

This is unfortunately one of the largest misconceptions about the wants and desires of the TOS folks. While I, personally, would love to see as many as possible *reprise* their roles, by no means do I want to see a *return to the '70's*. I have always looked at a possible continuation as one with a "next generation" feel to it. The original principals would still be there, if interested, and would be handing off to the next generation of warriors, etc.

My point is that with a live action continuation, this is what you would have to do. There is no other alternative other than mixing the old characters with new ones. Where as, with an animated version that restriction is lifted. If the producers wanted to, they could pick the story up anywhere since the age of the actors and the time that has passed in the real world would not affect it.

An animated version means that the story doesn't have to be 25 years laters and still no earth. We could instead pick up 5 minutes after Starbuck's gun bumps that button. I'm suggesting that that freedom is what makes the idea of an animated version so popular.

[Eric Paddon]

"An animated version means that the story doesn't have to be 25 years laters"

Except that this confuses the issue of what it is a person like me wants to see, and that is a continuation in the *medium of live action*, because nothing less than that will mean a true continuation from my standpoint. I do not place a premium on having to pick up the story from the end of HOG because we've had comic books that do that, and we have a vast multitude of fanfic (a lot written by me) that does that, so there is nothing new whatsoever for me in terms of seeing a non-live action treatment of TOS. What this is all about as I see it is continuing TOS in a particular medium with flesh and blood actors, and anything less than that you can forget it as far as I'm concerned.

[Gemini1999]

What this is all about as I see it is continuing TOS in a particular medium with flesh and blood actors, and anything less than that you can forget it as far as I'm concerned.

Eric -

What if Tom DeSanto had gotten clearance from Universal to produce the animated BSG feature that was recently talked about? Are you saying that if it had gotten the greenlight, that you would give it a miss?

I know that being an animated feature would probably limit it when it came to sequels, etc., but if the story was a good one and the animation was top of the line, wouldn't you be curious what it was like? Especially if the "buzz" on it was good....

Just wondering...

Bryan

[Eric Paddon]

I'd watch it, but I'd still have a very bad taste in my mouth that this was the thing we were given as our "official" continuation because the whole genre of animation is nothing more than a moving comic book to me, and I would greet the emergence of an animated version as no different than seeing another comic book, and the last thing I would ever consider any comic book version of TOS is our be-all, end-all solution to the problem we've been facing for 25 years.

[Titon]

I'd watch it, but I'd still have a very bad taste in my mouth that this was the thing we were given as our "official" continuation because the whole genre of animation is nothing more than a moving comic book to me, and I would greet the emergence of an animated version as no different than seeing another comic book, and the last thing I would ever consider any comic book version of TOS is our be-all, end-all solution to the problem we've been facing for 25 years.

Just exactly what do you people want? Presently there is no way Universal is going to green light a continuation project concerning the TOS. For one it would undermine there belief in Ron Moore.

Now if DeSanto were to get a chance to produce an animated style Galactica would you not back it? I surely would since in all honesty it *could* lead to a live action feature. Say he has a chance to bring us up to speed without sinking major dollars into a grand production. He could tell the story of how the Fleet progressed into the future. In essance *bridge* the old cast to a new cast. Personally i could care less about the old cast. For me having an entirely new cast of characters is the only way to really go now anyways. Every day that goes by less and less of the old cast becomes a moot point.

Now before anyone blasts away and codemns my thoughts on this saying if your going to do an animation why not just do a continuation movie. Well frankly that isn't going to happen. Not with Glen Larson in charge. IF DeSanto can accomplish getting the rights to do a BG animated series this gives him the window to create a new world to follow and an updated continuation later. Plain and simple. You have to walk before you can crawl.

Personally from what i've seen doing a Galactica animated series would kick astrums.

;)

[Gemini1999]

Now if DeSanto were to get a chance to produce an animated style Galactica would you not back it? I surely would since in all honesty it *could* lead to a live action feature. Say he has a chance to bring us up to speed without sinking major dollars into a grand production. He could tell the story of how the Fleet progressed into the future. In essance *bridge* the old cast to a new cast.

Don -

That's an excellent point. BSG fandom as a whole is always going on about what they don't want. The thing of it is, if DeSanto were able to produce an animated feature film, Universal (or someone) could get it into the theaters and gauge what kind of financial interest there really is. If it were a big hit, that studio might sit back and say: "Wow, we really underestimated this..." Therin, lies the possibility of something bigger coming after. If it wasn't a big hit, but was able to make back their money along with some margin of profit, then the reaction would be: "Well, we heard there was an interest, but in the end, it just wasn't there". Fans wouldn't get the live action movie they wanted, but they would get some story closure.

In the end, if something is produced and fans don't respond to it, what more can the studios do? Universal and SciFi are already happy with the performance and critical success of what they have, they're not really obligated to do much more.

Fans may not drive the creative process, but in the end, they do determine how successful a film is, or isn't.

Best,
Bryan

[bsg1fan1975]

sorry but nothing but live action will fit for me. I like watching people, not someone's idea of how a person should look and act! Give me human beings!

[Eric Paddon]

Agreed. And if animation were being done to do a "next generation" thing, that becomes an idea that's more pointless from my standpoint.

Neither animation, nor comic books, nor novels (especially not Richard Hatch's) are my idea of trying to give us "closure" to TOS because as far as I'm concerned any one of those mediums is just fanfic with a professional veneer and that is a genre I've satisfied myself in as far as the future TOS storyline goes more times than I can count (and frankly, I think the real tragedy is that TOS fanbase often fails to appreciate how much good creativity is out there in that area). The only thing that has any potential to lay claim to being a canon style creation is something in the live action medium and nothing else can ever be satisfactory to me personally (it might to others but not me) and give me a sense that at long last we finally achieved some vindication for our 25 years of patience.

An animated feature film is not going to lead to any kind of live action feature. Especially since all you do there is muddy the issue on which storyline do you then follow, and does live action that follows animated have to follow the storyline of animated to avoid confusion or are you then starting over again?

[jewels]

Now if DeSanto were to get a chance to produce an animated style Galactica would you not back it? I surely would since in all honesty it *could* lead to a live action feature. Say he has a chance to bring us up to speed without sinking major dollars into a grand production. He could tell the story of how the Fleet progressed into the future. In essance *bridge* the old cast to a new cast. Personally i could care less about the old cast. For me having an entirely new cast of characters is the only way to really go now anyways. Every day that goes by less and less of the old cast becomes a moot point.

Now before anyone blasts away and codemns my thoughts on this saying if your going to do an animation why not just do a continuation movie. Well frankly that isn't going to happen. Not with Glen Larson in charge. IF DeSanto can accomplish getting the rights to do a BG animated series this gives him the window to create a new world to follow and an updated continuation later. Plain and simple. You have to walk before you can crawl.

Personally from what i've seen doing a Galactica animated series would kick astrums.

;)If DeSanto could get an animated movie, series or whatever put together, I'd be there will bells on after kidnapping my brother who likes the new series, (he's got to see T.D.'s work if he likes RDM's).

I think going to anime is a clever route. You can fill in the time gap, using the voices everyone knows and loves, then take it into whatever story stage you wish when you transition into live action. Could be like the 2nd coming, could be 100 yahren later, depending on what happened in the series of anime's.

The lower budgets could help it get into a Cartoon Network adult swim spot or go direct to DVD. Yet the story would still get accomplished and told.

Much as I'd love to see our actors again, live, I would treasure anything true to the lore that let them participate at all. I have a lot of respect, appreciation and some genuine affection for our cast. The one I'd really want to see live again is Dirk, but I think a lot of that is just I think he did Starbuck in a manner that can't quite be captured by anyone else and there is something potentially vindictive of how well the original Starbuck worked that just leaves me wishing for the opportunity to arise, just once, to see him do Starbuck again. I think it was sensing the wistfulness when he talked about DeSanto's 50 yr. old Starbuck. He'd have liked to play him again, and I wish he would have that opportunity.

Anime could work for me. Especially if it could bridge to other things. Especially if it went back into the realm of likeable epic heroes, with hope.

Jewels

[repcisg]

A live action film has about as much chance of being made as I have being selected to do Commander Cain for TNS.

So the real question is, if an animated film were made, would you watch it?

[kingfish]

A live action film has about as much chance of being made as I have being selected to do Commander Cain for TNS.

So the real question is, if an animated film were made, would you watch it?



If there was no chance what was the point of CFF? Does Larson hold the movie rights or not? What about a direct to DVD continuation which is being discussed at Cylon Alliance. We are becoming like Universal, not knowing what the right or left hand is doing. Finally if I had a choice of cartoon Galactica or the Second Coming, well you know what I would chose.

[jewels]

A live action film has about as much chance of being made as I have being selected to do Commander Cain for TNS.

So the real question is, if an animated film were made, would you watch it?
Yes. And I'd want the DVD if it was true to TOS's mythos and characters.

[Eric Paddon]

That is a very good point, Paul, because was this whole CF campaign aimed at getting something lesser like an animated version off the ground?

At any rate, what this is proving is my original point made before the Moore series began airing is that its potential for success could only hurt the chances of true continuation, and not enhance it, as some people claimed to justify taking an overly conciliatory tone toward it.

[Gemini1999]

If there was no chance what was the point of CFF? Does Larson hold the movie rights or not? What about a direct to DVD continuation which is being discussed at Cylon Alliance. We are becoming like Universal, not knowing what the right or left hand is doing. Finally if I had a choice of cartoon Galactica or the Second Coming, well you know what I would chose.

Paul -

The one thing about CFF is the timing that it was done. It was done prior to the release of TNS in the UK. I'm sure that there were most that thought that it would capitalize on the visiblity of the BSG name being so prominent in the media even if it wasn't a continuation story. I'm also sure that there are those that thought that TNS would run it's 13 episodes and that would be that, but as it turns out, it's not the case with 20 more episodes on order.

One of the things that nobody knew about was that Tom DeSanto was proposing an animated feature or series to Universal until it was turned down. In that respect, at least Tom is thinking of the original series in some way and recognizes that there would be an audience for it.

I know that I've seen conversations at Cylon Alliance regarding "CFF II", which basically is a refocusing, or retooling of the goals for a direct-to-DVD film of some sort. The problems there have to do with how to get it made, not the impetus behind such a project. I would like to see some of the original stars, but I wouldn't object to a project like Star Trek: New Voyages where they recast everyone and start telling new stories altogether. The stumbling block there would be Universal coming in and putting a kibosh on the whole thing. They've been none too gracious to the TOS-minded community and probably wouldn't like to see even a fan produced film take off.

If someone out there has the cahones to produce, direct, or whatever a feature film, animated feature or series, I'll be there to support it as long as the story is good and the production is of decent quality and respectful of the BSG mythos.

As for those that would say that "Galactica is dead".... Well, I don't know how to really address that. I see that as an individual opinion, but I don't share it, nor will subscribe to it. If that were true, we might as well turn Fleets into a TNS site, or close it down altogther.

I guess that one of my biggest questions regarding fandom would be for those that say they are tired of talking about or discussing TOS. How do you keep TOS alive in your heart or introduce it to people that never saw it when you feel that way? And if you do feel that way, then why get disgruntled when people aren't respectful of it?

Like I said, I always see people come out of the woodwork when someone makes a proposition for a new BSG project. Most of them come out to run the idea down or say that they won's support the idea. When dealing with people of that kind of thinking, you are unwittingly dealing yourself out of the game. There isn't a director or network around that cares what people think when they aren't interested or won't watch something. You can sit around a crab about what you don't like until the cows come home, but it won't change anything. TPTB basically listen to those that do watch or do support whatever effort they are funding. They may not tailor-make it to your specifications, but if you are watching, then they will at least listen, if nothing else.

Best,
Bryan

[Titon]

One of the things that nobody knew about was that Tom DeSanto was proposing an animated feature or series to Universal until it was turned down.

Are you sure about that?

;)

There's only one person that's stopping this from happening. ONE!

[Eric Paddon]

Bryan, I'm not running down what fans want to do. What I question is the idea that seems to get produced that fan-oriented projects or animated versions can be seen as the be-all, end-all solution to the matter of an "official continuation" that we waited 25 years to see. As a fanfic writer, I can appreciate what other people do, even things that are more ambitious in some areas, but one thing I am not going to do is elevate a fan-created end product to a higher level of importance than the average fanfic story in terms of producing a "canon" version of what ultimately happened. The only thing that can ever lay claim to doing that , as I see it, is something that has to be produced in the live-action genre or else it's just part of something that I think TOS fandom is not suffering from a shortage of at this particular time, and hasn't for awhile. There are *400* stories of some degree or another that are on the main fanfic site, there are several more here, there are Hatch novels for those who like them, and we might even see new comic book versions again of TOS someday. Fan-based creativity has never been lacking for TOS to me.

[Titon]

By the way, i really like this discussion.

Now to ask flat out Eric, what exactly are you wishing for? Or for all other's what would be exceptable?

In the long run you will never satify everyone, plain and simple. Say Larson finally put's the bottle down and discusses a motion picture event. One of the main reasons you see nothing out of him is no one will touch his scripts with a 10 foot pole. The scripts do not revolve around the Galactica at all but they do revolve around the Pegasus and possibly the Atlantis. Here we are sitting with our hands tied because Glen won't commit to BATTLESTAR GALACTICA. He doesn't want Battlestar Galactica.

So here are the 2 choices you presently have:

1. Glen Larson-Retains the movie rights and will not produce anything called Battlestar Galactica. Sit's on his hands and never relinquishes the movie rights=fans get nothing.

2. Tom DeSanto-Is able to pry the rights away from Larson and will do something called Battlestar Galactica. Not Battlestar Pegasus, not Battlestar Atlantis=fans get something.

With Glen you have basically nothing. He will not do a movie.
With DeSanto you have something. He will do a movie or some sort of cgi series.

Which one do you choose? It's a simple straight forward question. If you say you will not accept *in the begining* some sort of animated series then there is no reason to post about Galactica any longer. TOS is dead to you all. If you say you will accept *in the begining* some sort of animated series then you open yourself to TOS Galactica having a future.

Glen=squat
Tom=A New Hope.

;)

[Eric Paddon]

The options you present to me are ones that frankly don't excite me at all. If DeSanto does it the way you're suggesting, all I can promise is that I wouldn't stand in the way or raise a protest campaign, but I would have no enthusiasm for it whatsoever, and my reaction to what I see would only be judged in the way I judge a fanfic story or one of Hatch's novels. If it isn't live and on film, it's nothing that special from my standpoint.

And FYI, TOS is never going to be dead to me if there is nothing that happens because I still have my own imagination and my own ability to write stories which for the last 12 years has taken up a goodly chunk of my spare time with over 2000 pages of writing, and also a group of fellow fanfic writers I currently coordinate things with in our own second season project. In short, I'm among that group that doesn't need the output of others to produce non-live projects of telling TOS stories to satisfy my basic curiosity because I've already written five different universes worth of stories about what happened next to them and can only find myself impressed by something that's done in the format that TOS first took place in.

[Titon]

If it isn't live and on film, it's nothing that special from my standpoint.[
So your saying that if you can't see it live and on film all other mediums are just a waste? Now i'm not talking just Galactica here, i'm talking about the entire spectrum of *is it live or is it memorex*? Now i can get lost in a good story as well as anyone but i've also found animation to be one of the best things going today. Some of the greatest thearectical motion pictures are nothing but cartoons. Some of them have won academy awards for best motion picture and for creative writing. Some of those that produced these animated movies are the brightest thinking minds in hollywood today. Heck even Richard's GWOM is going to comic first. All i'm saying is you put yourself in a very tight circle with such thinking.

Imagination is what makes things spectacular. You even posted that you've explored TOS's future through your own imagination. So why would someone else's thoughts about how to field a continuation be so shallow?

In the end it's just everyone's opinion on how this could come to be. But i for one would view just about anything as feasible. Especially with a vivid imagination.

;)

[kingfish]

Don from what I read Larson was only doing an Atlantis or Pegasus film if Hatch had won the rights.

[kingfish]

If people wanted the entire thingy recast new voyages style then they would have shut their traps when Larson first announced a BG revival at the 15th anniversary. Larson's project was recast all of the roles and have foghorn leghorn walking Vipers. If that was unacceptible then why would it be acceptible now? I thought the goal was a continuation with the original actors who made the show worth while. In finality, Hatch, Benedict, Jefferson Jr or BUST.

[kingfish]

The ad for CFF clearly shows what fans want Hatch and Benedict as Starbuck and Apollo in a continuation project.

[gmd3d]

I would still go for a cgi with the original actor voices. if a movie was not made I agree with those here that say Galactica can work well if done right in CGI ..
but I do understand Eric and Kingfish POV .
just my thoughts

[Gemini1999]

Are you sure about that?

;)

There's only one person that's stopping this from happening. ONE!

Don -

Now, you know that I had no way of knowing about such a thing until most of us heard that it was turned down. I'm sure that you and a few others knew about it prior to that, but you were playing that card close to your vest.

Gee - I can't imagine who that ONE person would be.... Larson? Moore? Am I getting warm?

Bryan

[kingfish]

Maybe after Richard makes millions he can buy the right from Glen?

[kingfish]

Don -

Now, you know that I had no way of knowing about such a thing until most of us heard that it was turned down. I'm sure that you and a few others knew about it prior to that, but you were playing that card close to your vest.

Gee - I can't imagine who that ONE person would be.... Larson? Moore? Am I getting warm?

Bryan



Sandy made a number of posts as to the true story of BG at Cylon Alliance.

[Eric Paddon]

"So your saying that if you can't see it live and on film all other mediums are just a waste?"

Waste isn't the right word with me. Redundant is more like it or, "been there, done that." Fine if there's another one to add to the existing roster, but that isn't my idea of what I've been waiting to see in terms of some attempt at something definitive because that can only come when TOS universe is continued in the live action medium.

And no, I am not a fan of animation in general unless it's a vintage Warner Brothers cartoon or an early Flintstones episode. I have never looked at animation as an outlet to entertain myself compared to say, the printed page medium of writing because at least in something written I can envision the flesh and blood actors doing things.

[jewels]

Don -

Now, you know that I had no way of knowing about such a thing until most of us heard that it was turned down. I'm sure that you and a few others knew about it prior to that, but you were playing that card close to your vest.

Gee - I can't imagine who that ONE person would be.... Larson? Moore? Am I getting warm?

Bryan
I'm thinking it's higher up the food chain at Skiffy & Studios USA. *sigh* Out of touch morons: the people that like the new show in general, don't like it because of it's name; they like that storytelling style. The people that don't like the show are still drifting in search of "the real story". Those are 2 separate niche markets to exploit.

And who ever is kboshing trying market 2 is more of an idiot than I can comprehend. How many L&O does Uni do in a given week? How much $$ is NBC and TNT coughing up for 1st air and re-airs?

BG may not work in that visible an arena (main networks), but it still can have a goodly profit margin with some diversification. And margin is often a better marker for something being produced than not.

but I will hold my piece until summer 2006 or so. Then I think some extra impetus may magically appear. Don, Sometimes the dreams do work, you know. ;)

Jewels

[peter noble]

I'm seeing a lot of prejudice against animation, I think a lot of people think Disney or Hanna Barbera when animation is mentioned.

The animation I've been seing lately is just as emotionally involving as live action and not as formulaic as a lot of the felgercarb that's spat out of the Hollywood fun factory.

Stuff like Last Exile reminds me of the original Star Wars and BSG, while Love Hina is one of the best comedy romances you'll see.

Animation is just another way of telling a story, like a cave painting originally was or a comic book is today.

I've always rather liked the idea of a "Next Generation" of Galacticans and David Eick's a @&*$£#! ;)

Peter

[kingfish]

Peter, I believe that everybody is thinking Star Trek The Animated Series.

[repcisg]

How can anyone call high end CGI cartoon-ish? Just look at the Lord of the Rings!

But another thought! Universal (NBC) owns the Galactica universe, Glen has the rights to make Galactica and Pegasus movies(feature films - not animation), if NBC says it's OK. they cannot give someone else permision. Conversly NBC holds the animation rights and can assign them to who ever they please. The very fact that they said no to Tom indicates they see this as a potental avenue for a future production.

[gmd3d]

What I see is Roughneck Chronicles

[Dawg]

How can anyone call high end CGI cartoon-ish? Just look at the Lord of the Rings!

But another thought! Universal (NBC) owns the Galactica universe, Glen has the rights to make Galactica and Pegasus movies(feature films - not animation), if NBC says it's OK. they cannot give someone else permision. Conversly NBC holds the animation rights and can assign them to who ever they please. The very fact that they said no to Tom indicates they see this as a potental avenue for a future production.

But they won't.

As long as Universal holds the strings, nothing new that is TOS-based will see the light of day.

I'm sure that brings great delight to some.

But it's not stopping the fans from creating their own TOS based stories or even films. We're simply stopping ourselves.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[repcisg]

Precisely, Dawg!

[Titon]

Maybe after Richard makes millions he can buy the right from Glen?


Not being mean Paul but it will be a cold day in hell before Glen would sell his rights to Richard. That bridge has been severly burned. If Singer and DeSanto cannot pry them away from Glen what makes you think Richard can?

Gee - I can't imagine who that ONE person would be.... Larson? Moore? Am I getting warm?

Glen.

Don from what I read Larson was only doing an Atlantis or Pegasus film if Hatch had won the rights.

Hatch never had a chance at the rights and severly pissed of Glen by making the second coming. But that's an entirely different story.

Don from what I read Larson was only doing an Atlantis or Pegasus film if Hatch had won the rights.

Nope. Glen has never given up on doing his version of the story. One of the *major* reasons you have not seen anything out of the man. It was and still is his intention to do a story revolving around the first Battlestar or the Pegasus and Cain.

But it's not stopping the fans from creating their own TOS based stories or even films. We're simply stopping ourselves.

Exactly!

[kingfish]

Don so in other words Larson is preventing a project from happening?

[Titon]

Don so in other words Larson is preventing a project from happening?

Glen has always been the one guy that for some reason just will not get off his keester and let it happen. Bar none he owns the thearetical rights but will not committ to letting someone else *help* him realise the dream we've all been waiting for. Close but no cigar.

[gmd3d]

the Pegasus and Cain. That really would not intrest me as much as the Galactica story. The Cain story while intresting would not have the same drama as the ragtag fleet.
my POV :)

[kingfish]

So who is preventing a project from happening?

[cranky1c]

With all due respect, isn't Glen Larson about 70? To whome would theatrical rights descend after he passes.

[kingfish]

Cranky, Larson's children would inherit the rights.

[Titon]

Cranky, Larson's children would inherit the rights.

Correct, as long as they keep paying to have them renewed.

[bsg1fan1975]

maybe its because I am old fashioned and was raised on watching live people play roles but to me anime or cartoon like movies with the exception of Disney styled movies are not my thing and that is why I could never accept an animated tOS continuation.

[kingfish]

Didn't hatch make mention of buying the rights from Larson in a chat or newsletter?

I found something but can't remember where I saw it:


Repost Richard Hatch:


"I think anything is possible. That's why I never give up. Depending upon my success with Magellan I may one day be in a position to acquire Battlestar. That would be a dream to live for"

[Titon]

Didn't hatch make mention of buying the rights from Larson in a chat or newsletter?

Anybody can be in position to purchase the rights but the rights holder (Larson) has to be willing to sell to said party. Hatch had financial backing to obtain the rights but Glen and Universal had to intentions of ever selling them to Richard.

[bsg1fan1975]

look we all have differences of opinion, so can we just say live and let live?

[Eric Paddon]

I think what this is coming down to is not a case of whether TOS fandom would object to an animated thing in general and try to prevent it from happening or running it down, it's rather a matter of how we'd treat or regard such a thing. To me, an animated TOS thing can never make any claim to be superior to any other kind of similar TOS continuation entity in non-live action medium such as fanfic, novels, comic books etc. because I do not see animation as being all that different from those other mediums. Therefore, it can only be regarded by me in a low-key "Oh, that's nice" kind of feeling at best, and not this wondrous aura that we've gotten a legit substitute for a "definitive continuation" kind of thing because animation can not ever fulfill that role with me.

[Titon]

look we all have differences of opinion, so can we just say live and let live?


Isn't this where i'm expressing opinion?

I'm not here condemning live action or animation, i'm expressing opinion and that's what discussion forums are for.

;)

Therefore, it can only be regarded by me in a low-key "Oh, that's nice" kind of feeling at best, and not this wondrous aura that we've gotten a legit substitute for a "definitive continuation" kind of thing because animation can not ever fulfill that role with me.

And i respect that position.

:)

[bsg1fan1975]

Isn't this where i'm expressing opinion?

I'm not here condemning live action or animation, i'm expressing opinion and that's what discussion forums are for.

;)



And i respect that position.

:)
This was not directed at you but to those who keep insisting that there is only one choice if we should ever have the miracle of a continuation! I was just trying to help the idea along!

[Titon]

This was not directed at you but to those who keep insisting that there is only one choice if we should ever have the miracle of a continuation! I was just trying to help the idea along!

Understood.

:)

[Gemini1999]

This was not directed at you but to those who keep insisting that there is only one choice if we should ever have the miracle of a continuation! I was just trying to help the idea along!

Bsg1fan -

I don't think that anyone was saying that anime was the single best way to go with a continuation. I think that I can safely say that nobody would prefer it to a live action film, but for some of us it would be an acceptable alternative if a live action film just isn't going to happen.

In the end, it isn't up to us to decide - that's in the hands of producers and studio execs. I think that the conversation is indeed interesting to say the least. Like so many discussions regarding the possiblity, it's all just for discussion's sake.

As usual, I don't expect an agreement to come out of the discussion as there are so many ideas and so many opnions being presented.

Best,
Bryan

[Dawg]

I certainly wouldn't reject outright an anime TOS effort - as long as it went beyond the cartoon, as long as the story was good and the writing tight.

But overall my current leanings are more along the lines Eric's laid out.

Now, if the anime can bring the same kind of crisp, realistic SFX that Zoic's done for TNS (no, I'm not talking about the shaky camera and super-quick cuts, but the ships, etc.) to the characters, I'm all over it. It's a lot easier to believe we're watching people rather than cartoons that way.

My overall preference, though, remains and will always be live-action.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Titon]

Now, if the anime can bring the same kind of crisp, realistic SFX that Zoic's done for TNS (no, I'm not talking about the shaky camera and super-quick cuts, but the ships, etc.) to the characters, I'm all over it. It's a lot easier to believe we're watching people rather than cartoons that way.

This is exactly what i meant as well my friend. I'm not looking to have a Incredibles style cartoon but something as close to realism as you can get. To me even the overall cartoon look like the Classic Trek is a no no.

:)

[jewels]

I'm thinking characters even better (real facial proportion's wise) as Appleseed and the hair is as well done as Incredibles (their hair actually got mussed up). Ships as good as Zoic's beauty shots, with editing that lets you see the action in detail. No zoom, zoom, zoom. Leave that for a car commercial.

I would see it as a bridge to a possible live action piece. But state of the art animation is the way to go, not blackline/handdrawn cartoon.

Jewels

[kingfish]

Is Glen involved with the new series? He supposedly stated that he wasn't happy with it at Galacticon but is credited as Consulting Producer on nu galactica. This is besides being credited as the creator of the original series.

[Eric Paddon]

I think the title "consulting producer" was just a title they had to give him to settle legal matters resulting from how much as creator of the original he was entitled to get from what this generates. Even DeSanto still had some title in connection with the miniseries to avoid falling afoul of the original contractual obligations.

[jewels]

I suspect it also ties him into a non-compete situation, Eric and Paul.

They won't fight having to pay him, IF he doesn't put out a competitive product at the same time. (this is just theory)

Jewels

[kingfish]

I suspect it also ties him into a non-compete situation, Eric and Paul.

They won't fight having to pay him, IF he doesn't put out a competitive product at the same time. (this is just theory)

Jewels



The way he is going, I must wonder if we will see it in our lifetime. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Eric Paddon]

I think the real sad thing is that Glen Larson has never appreciated how much so many people enjoyed this particular show and unlike any other show that has his name on it, felt a connection with the characters and storylines. Every other show of Larson's that I can think of basically revolves around a particular gimmick and a series that is ultimately formula driven in all respects. Think "Knight Rider" and "Quincy" and "McCloud" where you can be entertained for a time but then everything kind of wears thin after a while because there's no place to go with those stories except more of the same formula. So we have the implausibility of "McCloud" which tests our patience with the idea that a New Mexico cop has to spend this much time in New York learning police methods and that his chief is going to keep blustering and getting ticked off at him no matter how many times McCloud comes through, or "Quincy" which became nothing but an "issue of the week" show over and over because there was only so much one can do to create good murder mystery plots in that kind of format, and the less said about how ridiculously implausible "Knight Rider" is after awhile, the better (though I'll still get the Season 2 DVDs just to see Rebecca Holden!).

"Galactica" though is different and based on the descriptions of what Larson supposedly wanted to do, it's quite apparent that all he wants to do is create another gimmick grabber rather than realize what a good thing he had to begin with, and that to me is very sad when the guy who made it all possible to begin with, doesn't realize how well-loved his creation has become.

[kingfish]

Well stated Eric. We saw something we liked and poof it was gone, replaced with Galactica 1980. Although I liked 1980 we would have been fracked if it went on. Larson was using Dirk as the John[ Edward Mulhare] character on tos.