Some Personal Thoughts

[Eric Paddon]

[This is a revised version of a post I attempted to make once before.]

These past few months have for me personally, been the lowest point of some 25 years of being a fan of Battlestar Galactica. More than ever, I am convinced that not only are the chances of a TOS continuation dead, but even more dangerously, the attempts that so many of us have made for years to see some respect achieved for TOS that has been denied it for too many years has all been shattered beacuse of the emergence of TNS.

God knows I'd like to have hope and look for silver linings in this ugly mess that now exists, but I can't look at what's going on with rose-colored glasses and think that the "success" of TNS (I use quotation marks because I think it's the ultimate joke that this program will be branded a "hit" for attracting a viewing audience one-tenth of what TOS was, yet TOS is still hung with the "flop" epithet) is going to lead to wonderful things for the future of TOS. I have been at too many non-Galactica message boards that I had to walk away from because whenever someone started a thread about TNS, it was done solely in the context of bashing TOS and showing zippo appreciation or respect for TOS. And I have heard Ron Moore's outrageous remarks in the DVD commentary and from his entire production team which has been one lie after another in terms of what they say about TOS to justify their end product. And while I will be the first to acknowledge that there are people of good faith and character who can be fans of both, the evidence remains very overwhelming to me that success of TNS is linked to running down of TOS into at bare minimum the status of an irrelevant "guilty pleasure" of the distant past, to be forever branded as "cheesy" and a "flop."

And when I see that happen to a property that I spent 20 long years of my life trying to stand up for with pride through long hours of fanfic writing just to at the very least see it get some long overdue respect as something that was equally good as its more ballyhooed contemporaries of the time it was made in (by which I mean Star Trek, Star Wars and Space: 1999) if not better in some respects, it does make me angry. Because this is not simply about passion for a TV show, this is about seeing in effect many years of our lives in which we gave our time to show our support for this show seemingly become worthless. When those like myself feel the need to express our anger at times in response to something new (which I think should be differentiated from just shouting "Ron Moore sucks!" out of the blue) we see, it isn't done from the standpoint of being overly obsessed about a TV show, it represents something deeper. It speaks to a loss of pride that people like me cherished for so many years in being a fan of Battlestar Galactica, because it was a name that first and foremost represented something I loved and appreciated. Now that element is gone forever and it's the loss of that sense of pride that was such an integral part in my being a fan that remains hard to deal with, and why more than ever, those of us who feel that loss of pride need an outlet to be able to express ourselves freely without being branded as "troublemakers" or that we're "beating a dead horse" because we express ourselves on occasion when we are genuinely outraged by the latest insult to what little remains of our pride as TOS fans in the face of all else that's happened, or that we are only bringing "hate" to the table rather than "love" when the issue is seldom to never one of commenting on people in this forum but rather one of our feelings on an issue that for the purposes of this kind of forum it seems to me, is a lot more worth commenting on than a lot of OT stuff that usually generated far more hate in Galactica forums between members than anything I've ever seen here regarding TNS controversy.

Do I wish there were happier things to comment on? Of course. Do I wish that TNS could actually lead to beter things for TOS ultimately, even if I still think TNS is awful? Of course. But at the same time, there is for people like me a cold reality facing the Galactica fanbase that in forums like this has to be dealt with and addressed openly (with respect for each other) and can't be looked at through rose-colored glasses just for the sake of aspiring to some level of "character" that I think most people who are still bothered by these developments don't have to prove they possess. I'm bothered by what's happening in Galactica, but it isn't affecting my life away from this place or the things in life I'm enjoying. I just wish that at a time when my life has been so much better of late, that Galactica could be giving me the kind of enjoyment it once did before there ever was a new series.

Just to carry this further, this morning my church had a fascinating guest lecture on C.S. Lewis and his wonderful "Space Trilogy" novels which was his way of using the science fiction medium to promote a Christian viewpoint in contrast to the way he saw authors like H.G. Wells etc. use the science fiction medium to advance a wholly different agenda. I was reminded of why I became such a passionate fan of Galactica in the first place, because it was a show that used the medium to create a universe more in synch with my own religious and political values. It was the show I could embrace with enthusiasm in contrast to Star Trek, which is a series that can entertain me but which I can not embrace with enthusiasm because it ultimately represents a universe and set of values that stand for something different entirely. But for those who appreciated Galactica because of those values, we often discovered that just as Lewis's perspective in sci-fi writing is basically all alone in a sea of literature where the Wellsian view dominates, so too was Galactica all alone in a sea of sci-fi TV when it came to promoting that particular set of values. But that was okay for me because when all was said and done, Galactica was still the one thing I could come back to and call my own no matter how many other sci-fi series got produced that reflected the dominant view.

But now TNS has taken that away because now the name "Battlestar Galactica" is being used in a show that no matter what one thinks of its execution, represents the value system that the original was in opposition to. It's literally as if Lewis's novels had been "reinvented" to serve the interests of a Wellsian philosophy. And if the "reinvented" version that in effect runs down the things that embodied the essence of TOS becomes what people think of in the future when they hear the name "Battlestar Galactica" then it is a development I can neither applaud, nor accept gracefully.

I believe it is imperative that those who consider themselves fans of TOS be prepared to defend TOS from the critical onslaughts of those who seek to diminish its standing through false and inaccurate information. Passivity in the past is one reason why the falsehood of "Star Wars ripoff" continues to hang over TOS to this day and at the very least, an active effort aimed at defending TOS (in a respectful and thoughtful way) can hopefully allow for the long-term preservation of what little remains of our pride as Galactica fans. It would also help if the disinformation campaign would stop from Ron Moore's quarter as well beacuse his DVD commentary was the ultimate case of a man trying to dance on the grave of TOS and its fanbase as best he could.

These are my personal thoughts on the situation as it exists. I have written this post because it is something I needed to get off my chest in the wake of some unpleasant things that have happened to me regarding this and other forums too. Feel free to comment or disagree on any aspect of what I have written and I will be happy to keep the dialogue going in the proper spirit befitting this kind of forum.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Thanks for posting this, Eric.

Very well written.

I can only hope people understand the message you are trying to convey rather than skim through it and bicker about it.

Again, well said and I applaud you for posting it, as a osBG fan and more importantly, as a person.

[nextceo]

Eric, as a TOS and TNS fan I do understand where you are coming from, even though I disagree. I'll have to chew on this more before dropping my 2 cents, but I can understand your frustration.

[Senmut]

CUBITS, nextceo. That's two CUBITS!

[BRG]

Hey Eric! :salute: Thanks for posting. :thumbsup:

Like Nextceo, I'm a fan of both TOS and TNS. But I also understand and respect your point of view, even though I don't share it. And if I had spent 20 years hoping & fighting for a continuation of the original series, only for it to be scuppered just as it was on the brink of happening, to be replaced by a reimaged version that was an insult to what you loved. I think myself, and anybody else would feel the same way you do.

Eric, you said you needed to get this off your chest. I know you have been at the point of walking away from this place a few times recently, but I hope this means you have decided to stay. Your posts are always interesting, and the Fleets would be a much poorer place without your input and company.
BRG

[kingfish]

The sad part is the continuation can take place right now if Uni would let it. Warrior is 100% correct on that part. The continuation could include live actors and not be a cartoon. Want proof that two or two thousand battlestar shows can exist look at NBC's Law & Order franchise. The are three spinoffs of the original L & O series. Look at CBS's CSI series. There are two spinoff of the original [CSI: Miami and CSI: New York]. On a final note, fans aren't confused.

[Dawg]

No, the fans aren't confused. I think we're smart enough to tell the difference between the two universes, and Universal could make a lot more money than they are now - but Universal won't take the risk.

Eric - great post. Well thought out and well written. I find little to argue with even though we approach BSG from different angles.

There is a danger here of the misperception that BSG rules our lives - this is only a microcosm of life here, and since we just talk about BSG it might appear it does rule us even though nothing could be farther from the truth. I, too, have a full and happy life outside these narrow halls.

But in that facet of my life where BSG lives - I think the disrespect that has been shown since the DeSanto revival was scuttled is what has rankled most. Even Tom DeSanto himself was not spared that disrespect. And the most basic elements of TOS were discarded, ignored, and disdained - well, both we and the show we're fans of were belittled, disrespected, and marginallized from the moment Hammer and Moore stepped into the picture.

This says nothing about the quality of the new production, nor the quality of the fans it has attracted. This speaks only to the comments that have been made by the producers, and the perceptions of what was not taken forward from the original show.

Good post, Eric.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[gmd3d]

I also think its a good post .Eric well said .

[BST]

Eric,

I'm VERY pleased that you posted this. It's very long overdue. There is so much truth in the illustration of how TOS-Galactica fans have been treated, in the last few years, that it wouldn't be possible for me to single out just one item.

A very heartfelt :salute:

BST

**********

For the folks who champion TNS, my hope is that this post will serve as an educactional opportunity which gives a peek into our soul. The Original show, to many of us, is simply much more than a 1-year show which disappeared 26+ years ago. As Eric mentioned, it espoused many ideals and values that we hold true and dear. Through the years, OUR story has not been a pretty one, by some definitions - a tragedy and we've endured much sadness in our travels. When we speak out with regards to TNS, we aren't purposely trying to be mean-spirited or to rain on your parade and please don't misinterpret our sadness for hostility because it is not. For many, the new show just isn't our cup of tea. There is too much of the original "flavor" that has been replaced with something new and for many, the taste is very bitter.


BST

[Antelope]

Eric:

I think the vast majority of people will say without a second thought that TNS is only here today because of the success of TOS. You will hear some people disparage TOS but for the most part it is a minority of people acting reflexively because of the tone of anti-TNS post by TOS only fans. These disparing people, whether TOS or TNS only fans are two sides of the same coin in my opinion. Most people who were around during TOS's original run don't look at TOS as a failure. I have heard this many times from the casual viewer of the day: "Battlestar Galactica (meaning TOS) was a great show. The network took it off and once they realized their mistake they couldn't get the original actors back. The new version (BG80) just wasn't the same."

TOS represented my political views at the time and reflected on the surface many of my religious beliefs. Time however has changed. The East-West conflict is over. Much of TOS was an analogy to the conflict between America, as represented by the colonials against cold, atheistic communism as represented by the cylon. As such TOS will always be a time capsule back to the time it was made. TNS is a time capsule of today in a world where our external conflicts are against religious extremist and internally we ask what is the role of religion and individual rights in our society. These themes are not better or worse, simply different and reflective of the times.

In the end ask any science fiction fan what in their opinion are the top five or ten science fiction television series of all times and I bet almost every person has the classic Battlestar Galactica somewhere on that list. The series is respected, will continue to be respected, and probably always will be respected. It was a pioneer of the genre and if anything came out a few years too early to control its cost.

TOS may never be continued, although I wouldn't count it out yet, but it is and always will be...a classic.

[amberstar]

Very well said Eric, a long over due post.
I agree with you and feel the same way :salute:

[Eric Paddon]

To all those who've responded and offered their kind words, thank you. Part of the context for writing this post came about because of an acrimonious break I had with the oldest Galactica discussion group on the Internet (the Yahoo group mailing list) that I had been part of since 1997 last month, and the rest came as a result of some threads that have cropped up in non-Galactica outlets like the Film Score Monthly message board and Home Theater Forum that left a very bad taste in my mouth. I have had my share of heated exchanges in internet forums over the years over subjects totally unrelated to Galactica (if you can believe it, my ugliest experience was in forums devoted to the Titanic!) but until this past year Galactica was always the safe haven to count on, where there was never an area of dispute like this one has been.

There are two points in your response, Antelope, that illustrate the differences we have now. You say that TOS critics are a minority reacting reflexively to TNS criticism, but does that account for what I think is the bigger problem, namely what comes from Ron Moore and the PR machine behind TNS?

Also, regarding the matter of the politcs of TOS being a "product of their time." To me, the set-up of TOS that has allowed it to have an enduring appeal is its very timelessness. The Cold War dichotomy of the late 70s merely carried over the dichotomy of an earlier era in the WWII generation, and a person like myself would say that the same dichotomy presented by TOS is a more appropriate description of the War on Terror today, and not the way in which TNS defines it. Of course that opens up what I feel is the most touchy aspect of this TOS-TNS debate, and the matter of which political perspectives TOS tended more towards in contrast to what TNS typifies (and most sci-fi in general), and that's one debate I feel the need to tread lightly on because I know that fandom of both shows or any show for that matter can not be defined as uniformly part of one political perspective or another.

[Antelope]

There are two points in your response, Antelope, that illustrate the differences we have now. You say that TOS critics are a minority reacting reflexively to TNS criticism, but does that account for what I think is the bigger problem, namely what comes from Ron Moore and the PR machine behind TNS?


When I go to very pro-TNS sites, like Ragnar Anchorage I see some of the same thoughtless post by some TNS only fans that I see at very pro-TOS sites from TOS only fans. Both groups claim they are responding to what is said by the other side. I think both groups drive each other in a series of responses and defenses. I probably come off as "pro-TNS" when I am on a pro-TOS site and can say the same thing and come off "pro-TOS" at the pro-TNS site.

Ron Moore has always been respectful of TOS and the TOS fan whenever I have read anything he has actually said. I think people are judging him by his product not by his words or intent. He is not being paid to do a TOS continuation nor does he feel one is a viable commercial endevor.

The SCIFI PR machine is in the business of making TNS a success. They are going to say TNS, Stargate, and Manquito for that matter are the best thing since sliced bread. I am sure ABC said the same things about TOS and even BG80. When is a show ever remade when it is not called "new, improved, and updated to today's audience"? Don't take personally how every remade show is marketed.

Most of the articles we see that rip TOS have nothing to do with Moore and SCIFI, they are products of television and entertainment critics at various media outlets, especially newspapers. Look at any show that is rated G versus any show that has a sexual component, violence, dark politics, and anti-heroes. Modern critics take the dark anti-heroic show every time. The critics hated Saving Private Ryan, the Passion of the Christ, and many supported Pulp Fiction over Forrest Gump. This tells you who writes television and film critiques throughout this country. It's been this way for some time now. It's not a Moore or SCIFI PR machine. It's simply how it is for better or worse.

[Mustex]

The continuation could include live actors and not be a cartoon.

Yes, but that would be horrible. Hopefully Steamboy will soon teach American audiences that live-action is a waste of time and money.

:Nsalute:

[Mustex]

No, the fans aren't confused. I think we're smart enough to tell the difference between the two universes

What if we ended up with nine or ten productions (movies, and spin-offs), each with their own sets of initials. The initiation into the fandom could consist of memorizing which universe each is in. We're geeks, and should be rewarded with geek trivia.

:Nsalute:

[kingfish]

Yes, but that would be horrible. Hopefully Steamboy will soon teach American audiences that live-action is a waste of time and money.

:Nsalute:



Duh. What network executive is going to put a cartoon/anime on in primetime?

[Eric Paddon]

"Yes, but that would be horrible. Hopefully Steamboy will soon teach American audiences that live-action is a waste of time and money."

Hopefully Mustex, you will realize why anime is totally unacceptable for an entity called "Battlestar Galactica" for those like myself and those whose sentiments are the same about TOS as I expressed them in my initial post. Those like me want this continued in the format which we experienced it in, and I could care less whether anime is a superior form of storytelling or not, because that is *not* what I and the others patiently waited for these last 20 years.

[Mustex]

"Yes, but that would be horrible. Hopefully Steamboy will soon teach American audiences that live-action is a waste of time and money."

Hopefully Mustex, you will realize why anime is totally unacceptable for an entity called "Battlestar Galactica" for those like myself and those whose sentiments are the same about TOS as I expressed them in my initial post. Those like me want this continued in the format which we experienced it in, and I could care less whether anime is a superior form of storytelling or not, because that is *not* what I and the others patiently waited for these last 20 years.

You waited so long, you deserve some interest. Anime can up the quality enough to cover that. ;)

:Nsalute:

[Eric Paddon]

"Ron Moore has always been respectful of TOS and the TOS fan whenever I have read anything he has actually said."

His "popcorn" statement was anything but respectful of TOS fanbase. Nor was his entire DVD commentary along with Eick and the director in which he and the others could be heard (1) cackling over how Olmos's "don't watch" remarks helped give TNS more publicity than being conciliatory to TOS fanbase (2) declaring that TOS never had a syndication package of reruns (3) saying that Galactica had only endured as a "name" thanks entirely to the "Universal PR department" and not because there was an actual fanbase for it and (4)that the negative depiction of civilian bureaucrats in TOS made TOS "fascist".

I am just very hard pressed to understand where this "respect" for TOS and its fanbase comes from, because I made a good faith effort to listen for an olive branch to TOS and its fans on the DVD and instead I heard more salt being rubbed into the wounds.

As for the PR machine, I'm sorry but running a quote that says "Superior to the original" is hardly how I think any other PR machine for another "reinvented" property has ever gone about things. I remember with the POTA remake how Tim Burton almost always spoke in hushed reverential tones about the original movie and how he went the "reinvention" route not because of deficiencies in the original but because he felt he couldn't improve on the way it was first done in that area. I also don't recall the LIS movie going out of its way to promote how better they were than the TV series. Nor have I ever seen the newest incarnations of Twilight Zone and Outer Limits consciously attempt to declare themselves "Superior to the original" and to run only quotes calling attention to that kind of comparison like the DVD packaging for the miniseries did.

If you say Moore has been "respectful" of TOS and its fanbase I'd like to see some very concrete examples of that and then see how they fare in the context of his other statements and actions so we can see what represents the true feelings of this man.

[BST]

You waited so long, you deserve some interest. Anime can up the quality enough to cover that. ;)

:Nsalute:


Perhaps an anime trailer, espousing the ideals of TOS could be a way to get a "foot in the door" with a financier. But, live-action remains the primary choice for the full production. A benefit of dong an anime trailer is that it would be quicker to produce.

Question: If original series actors/actresses did voice-overs, would that constitute involvement by the Screen Actors Guild (SAG)?

[Mustex]

As for the PR machine, I'm sorry but running a quote that says "Superior to the original" is hardly how I think any other PR machine for another "reinvented" property has ever gone about things. I remember with the POTA remake how Tim Burton almost always spoke in hushed reverential tones about the original movie and how he went the "reinvention" route not because of deficiencies in the original but because he felt he couldn't improve on the way it was first done in that area. I also don't recall the LIS movie going out of its way to promote how better they were than the TV series. Nor have I ever seen the newest incarnations of Twilight Zone and Outer Limits consciously attempt to declare themselves "Superior to the original" and to run only quotes calling attention to that kind of comparison like the DVD packaging for the miniseries did.


A quote was also run stating TNS was "The most ambitious sci-fi series since the 'Twilight Zone.'" That means that it's superior to every show from Star Trek, to B5, to Andromeda. Why aren't their fans mad?

:Nsalute:

[Mustex]

Perhaps an anime trailer, espousing the ideals of TOS could be a way to get a "foot in the door" with a financier. But, live-action remains the primary choice for the full production.

Try reversing that. Maybe a live-action trailer, but an anime production.

:Nsalute:

[Eric Paddon]

There is no comparison between the incident you cite and what this experience has been. "Most ambitious since" is a comparison done in favorable context to the other property, calling attention to how important the original was, nor does the phrase mean "we're better than the Twilight Zone." The reason TZ fans couldn't get mad was beacuse there was nothing for them to take offense to, which is not the case in this instance. "Most ambitious since" is not a synonymous term for "superior to".

[BST]

Mustex,

Why do refuse to accept the answers that are given? If I was open to either possibility, I would have used the conjunction, "OR". The reverse scenario doesn't appeal to me at all.

[Mustex]

There is no comparison between the incident you cite and what this experience has been. "Most ambitious since" is a comparison done in favorable context to the other property, calling attention to how important the original was, nor does the phrase mean "we're better than the Twilight Zone." The reason TZ fans couldn't get mad was beacuse there was nothing for them to take offense to, which is not the case in this instance. "Most ambitious since" is not a synonymous term for "superior to".

Eric, here's my post...read it fully this time:

A quote was also run stating TNS was "The most ambitious sci-fi series since the 'Twilight Zone.'" That means that it's superior to every show from Star Trek, to B5, to Andromeda. Why aren't their fans mad?

It didn't say it was superior to TZ, but to every show occuring from the time to TZ to 2004.

Oh, and here's a better idea. Why not show the Psycho people how to REALLY do a shot-by-shot remake. Exactly the same story, even encorporating the same dialogue recordings, but anime instead of live-action. :D

:Nsalute:

[Eric Paddon]

"It didn't say it was superior to TZ, but to every show occuring from the time to TZ to 2004."

It said nothing of the kind. That required an inference on your part because there was no specific language making that claim. Now compare that to the DVD package where there is specific language making a claim that is intended to cast TOS in an unfavorable light.

[Mustex]

"It didn't say it was superior to TZ, but to every show occuring from the time to TZ to 2004."

It said nothing of the kind. That required an inference on your part because there was no specific language making that claim. Now compare that to the DVD package where there is specific language making a claim that is intended to cast TOS in an unfavorable light.

Saying "The most ambitious show since the Twilight Zone," means that no show since then could have been as ambitious. Hence logic leads to that conclusion.

:Nsalute:

[BST]

Mustex,

Interpretation of a quote is like beauty - it's in the eye of the beholder.

In other words, the quote says one thing, to you, and something completely different to someone else. Neither is "right", neither is "wrong".

:)

[Eric Paddon]

Exactly, Pete. And that is precisely why a quote from TNS PR machine that would only require inference in order for one to take offense would be something I would not have any legitimate grounds to object to. When it becomes a matter of specific language aimed at being critical of TOS, that becomes another matter, especially given how unprecedented such action is.

[Rigel_No_6]

Eric - I'm glad you've been able to get something you feel very passionately about off your chest as it sounded painful for you. You can't keep that stuff in, it's bad for your spleen so I'm glad you found an outlet. Also, this is an interesting thread to read through all issues related to the TOS/TNS clash and I'm sure it will help everyone better understand the TOS side of the issues. That said, I did just want to contribute a number of positive things that RDM has put in his blog/answering questions on the Sci-Fi site about the TOS just to share with everyone. I'm not trying to water things down but you were looking for some specific examples so I thought you might be interested in these:


About Baltar swiveling his chair at the end of "Tigh me Up, Tigh me Down":
Chair-swiveling is an old and honorable avocation for any accomplished and self-respecting villainous personage. How could its inclusion be anything but a loving tribute?

About the lack of egyptian elements:
The original series used elements of various ancient civilizations and I wanted to continue that element, but I didn't feel that the Egyptian motif, which they used predominantly, would be particularly resonant in this series. Greco-Roman influences were also present in the orginal, and I felt that Roman influences in particular would have resonant value given today's American society both in the republicanism (lower-case) and in the portrait of a culture that had ascended to a certain plateau, had driven its enemies from the field, proclaimed itself the guardian of truth and justice and yet was still prey to the same frailties and failings of all other human endeavors.

"Are you still working with Zoic for design work?" Absofrakkinglutely.

About the rank structure:
The rank structure is derived from the original series. I didn't want to change Commander Adama to Captain Adama or Colonel Tigh to Commander Tigh, so I elected to simply embrace the co-mingled nature of the original rank structure.

About Galactica's mythos:
There are a couple of notions rolling around in my head as to how we reconcile the very real fact of evolution with the Galactica mythos, but I haven't decided which approach to take. However, it was a fundamental element of the orginal Galactica mythos that "Life here began out there..." and I decided early on that it was crucial to maintain it.

More on mythos:
The mythology of the new Galactica is heavily influenced by that established in the original. I've always approached this project with an eye toward taking the original material and making it work in a new context. I still try to do this whenever possible. Does it make sense that there would be a star system with 12 inhabitable planets? Not really, but that was in the original and at some point I decided to run with that as another nod to the old show. The mythology of the old show centered around Kobol and the thirteen "tribes of man," so I've kept it as the centerpiece of ours. Not every single element is the same and not every element is even intact, but the roots are there. The point was to make another version of Battlestar Galactica, not just use the name.

About why the story wasn't a continuation:
I wasn't interested in the continuation story. I saw more to be gained by going back and retelling the tale from the beginning than by picking up the story 20 or 40 years later. I personally never thought a continuation was a bad idea, but it simply didn't interest me as a writer.

[Eric Paddon]

First, Rigel, thanks for your comments. They are appreciated.

I am not unfamiliar with much of what you post but to me, they are an unfortunate reminder that the most benign thing one can say about Moore and TOS is that he just doesn't "get" what it was about TOS that made it so appreciated and beloved by someone like me.

#1. The "chair swivel" bit as a "homage" to me strikes me as a reach, though I will admit I haven't seen it (I haven't watched any episodes beyond the miniseries and believe me that was not an easy experience). It does though remind me of how I thought the "homage" in the miniseries by playing a tinny rendition of the original theme for a brief second or two struck me more as demeaning, and less of a true homage.

#2. It isn't that there are no Egyptian elements in TNS that has been a chief cause for objection, though it is more likely to really bother those who were impressed by the whole notion of the "ancient astronaut" element of TOS, it is the lack of a society that is principally faith-based and faith driven, as personified in its central character Commander Adama. The Adama of TOS is a man who is motivated by his deep faith to take the difficult task of leading his people to Earth, and we see that faith vindicated by the unfolding of a universe where there is an absolute struggle of Good-Evil taking place, and one where ultimately perhaps man has not outgrown his need for Divine help after all, unlike the philosophy of a certain Gene Roddenberry series. I could live without Egyptian helmets, but I can not live without the positive view of religion as embodied in the nature of the Human-Cylon conflict, and in the person of Adama and his faith being the core trait of his personality. Without that dynamic, he just can not credibly claim IMO that TNS and its "mythos" is "heavily influenced by that established in the original." Without that area of values, family and moral clarity, he just gives me the kind of universe that I was always grateful TOS was anything but. His problem is he confuses lesser details like "Twelve worlds" with the fundamental essence and thinks that a few retention of details should somehow suffice.

"I wasn't interested in the continuation story. I saw more to be gained by going back and retelling the tale from the beginning than by picking up the story 20 or 40 years later. I personally never thought a continuation was a bad idea, but it simply didn't interest me as a writer. "

And to me, that remark is the height of arrogance. He shows no understanding for what the fanbase of this property wanted to see for so many years, and couldn't see past his own pride to get a measure of what the name "Battlestar Galactica" has meant to people like me for so many years, and what our expectations have been all these years. There isn't any way I could look at a remark like that and come away with anything but a negative view of Moore, because it shows the ultimate disrespect for TOS fanbase and boils it down to himself only.

Those are just my own thoughts on those points you bring up, and if you want to respond on those points, I'm happy to listen.

[nextceo]

Eric, I understand how you feel I really do, so my one comment here hopefully you will not take offense to as it is not my intent. In Rigels comments and your reply you feel it is RDM's height of arrogance that he didn't do what the fanbase wanted and did what he wanted. That he disrespected the fanbase. I disagree to an extent. First, he was approached by Sci-Fi to take over the reigns not the other way around. He was currently already working on Carnivale and felt that if he was going to do the show (as he had to leave a show he was already working on) then he wanted to do it his way. I respect that. He is an artist in every sense of the word and wanted to write a script and story he was passionate about. He wanted to do things his way and in a way he would enjoy writing and producing a show on an every day basis. He simply did not have the desire to follow a continuation. Just as you don't like TNS, and would not write in its timeline, he did not have an interest in writing in a TOS continuation timeline. He had a different vision for Galactica and wanted to make it more relavent to todays atmosphere, not the atmosphere of 25 years ago. Not to say that is right or wrong (although for me personally he has hit the nail on the head in what I want to see in a sci-fi show). It was nothing against the fans, its just not what he wanted to do. He wanted to make a sci-fi show in the way he had always envisioned it being done (since working on TNG and DS9) and felt he could not accomplish that or do it as well in a continuation. If people want to be ticked, be ticked at Bonnie Hammer for changing things up, but I can't see being as mad at Moore because he is doing the show he wanted to do at the request of his employer, Sci-Fi. Its like my company, we do promotional video work primarily for corporate clients. Our clients may give us the idea of what they want, but we develop our own vision for the story of their company and how we want to present it, not the other way around. I have no desire to do a video job were I have to fit a strict set of rules (as RDM would have to do in a continuation), I want to put my own stamp on the company and how it is promoted because I have a passion for developing my own vision, not someone elses.

[Darrell Lawrence]

nextceo, Moore had some disparging and insulting comments himself back in the beginning. People haven't forgotten that, nor should they.

He "wonders" why osBG fans don't like what he's done as far as "tributes" and such, and wants them to give the show a chance, but it falls back on his early comments as to why they won't.

He's never apologized for it, and he feels he shouldn't have to, I imagine. That's a part of his arrogance and ego.

He insults them, then expects praise from them for his version of someone elses work? Kinda hard to swallow ;)

...and yes, there's plenty aimed at Bonnie too. Some of that pre-dates even DeSanto/Singer.

[Rigel_No_6]

Well said, Next. I'm right there with you. :Nsalute:

However, I also certainly respect Eric and Warrior's opinions on the matter (this is kinda Eric's thread anyways) so it's very interesting to read about both sides of the coin.

Our Priest, who is also a Liturgics professor, at our Episcopal church often picks books for bible study that contradict most of what we agree with (we're more liberal than most but very anglo-catholic) but we read them anyway. Everyone usually grumbles the whole time about the book but he feels it's important to read both sides of issues before you declare a stance and try to support it, and I have to agree with him. It's not fair to say you disagree without making the effort to understand both sides. In my book, that's the height of ignorance and intolerance and it's unfortunately becoming the norm.

So, here's to sharing opinions, and agreeing to disagreeing respectfully with one another when that happens, which is the height of civilization.

Best regards,
Rigel

[gmd3d]

and agreeing to disagreeing respectfully with one another when that happens, which is the height of civilization.

Well said Rigel. That is something we should always remember ..

[Eric Paddon]

Nextceo, the big stumbling block to your argument is that Moore from my standpoint did not earn on an ethical level, the right to impose "his" vision of the property "Battlestar Galactica" on the rest of us, anymore than I think Art Modell had the ethical right to move the Cleveland Browns out of Cleveland and betray the fans of that city. Legally yes, but ethically no. If he were a longstanding fan of the series who understood how it ticked and was writing his vision of what happened next in that universe, while retaining the values and essence of the original, that's one thing. But he was not a fan of the original, and clearly shows no sign of understanding why it reasonated with its fans. In this case he has imposed his own agenda on someone else's work, and that does not sit well with me in any context.

Harve Bennett had very little knowledge of Star Trek when he was tapped to take over the movie series after the disappointing reaction to the first one. What was the one thing he did? He didn't set out to impose his personal creative vision on the property at the expense of what the fans of Star Trek had enjoyed, he went out and researched the episodes to try and find a good story to tell in the finest tradition of the series. He let respect for the property be his first guide, and not his personal pride as a writer the way Moore has done with Galactica.

If Moore as a writer wanted to write a show that utilized the value system and other aspects that typify TNS he should have waited for a chance to do something completely original and not applied it to someone else's work, knowing it was going to upset a lot of people.

One final point. I can not be more ticked at Bonnie Hammer for a simple reason. Moore's own words in the DVD reveal that if he had decided to in effect pick up where DeSanto had left off and done a continuation, there would have been no objection from Sci-Fi or Universal. Therefore, he was not, contrary to what I heard some say a while back, under a mandate to go completely original, it was entirely his call. And my take is that he did not earn the ethical right to do that.

[Antelope]

Blind hatred of Moore and SCIFI is not going to get anyone a Continuation nor is it rational.

Fandom however is often not rational.

Anyone who reads EVERYTHING that has gone on with Moore knows he has reached out on many occasions. We have all read about it so no need to look it up and repost it. If you want to ignore it I won't change your mind today. I take the word of Sandy, Two Brain Cylon on that since I for one am tainted by being a fan of both series. Moore is also a financial contributer to the Colonial Fan Force. I wish the hard core anti-TNS crowd could focus their issues on the product and not human beings.

SCIFI who is so hated has also been the home of TOS for well over a decade now. They have been the sole entity keeping TOS on television for a long time. They are probably one of the leading entities that have kept TOS alive in the public during a large segment of TOS's post ABC existence. Despite all the failed start up attempts they are the one and only entity thus far to believe in the concept of "Battlestar Galactica" to have actually put product in front of a television audience since the end of BG80.

It's not personal, its a business. SCIFI believed in "Battlestar Galactica" but did not believe a TOS Continuation was what was best for today's audience. They did what they thought best. The viewers will decide if they were right.

I remember when Moore wrote a reach out letter to one of the stalwarts of the TOS-only community. It was then posted by that person. I also remember the sarcastic responses and the replies cheering on the sarcasm.

I understand the feeling but focusing your anger on human beings about a television show is ridiculous.

[BRG]

Well said Rigel. That is something we should always remember ..

Yes, an excellent post Rigel. I can only echo what Taranis has said. :salute:
BRG

[justjackrandom]

Antelope,

I agree with you that “Blind hatred of Moore and SCIFI is not going to get anyone a Continuation nor is it rational”
I will also agree “Fandom … is often not rational.”

The problem with these statements is that you associate fandom with blind hatred, and I take issue with that.

True there are many fans of TOS who are continuation supporters that strongly dislike Moore and SCIFI. Some may even hate…but to say that such feeling is “blind” suggests that they have no reason for feeling as they do, a position that can easily be refuted by reading their numerous posts. Such fans have excellent reasons for feeling as they do, and many have stated those reasons time and again.

As for Moore reaching out to fans, again I would to a limited extent agree with you, as I am sure Moore would. But there are a great many who would not, or see his overtures as pandering. Given RDM’s public personality and demeanor, as well as the results of his labors, I can see how his actions could be construed as negative. He certainly made no large overtures in the early days of the project to the fan base, nor did he indicate he really cared about TOS in any way.

I don’t remember the letter you reference from RDM. It would be nice if I did, as it would mean it had made an impact. I do believe that since the project has gone to series he has tried to reach out more to TOS fans. But for many, it’s too little, too late.

Finally you say, “I understand the feeling but focusing your anger on human beings about a television show is ridiculous.”

To which I reply: Neither you, nor I (who am also a supporter of TNS as well as a TOS fanatic) can truly understand. We aren’t living it, as those who feel they have been betrayed do.

I don’t always agree with the positions some TOS-only fans take, nor do I always like the vehement way they attack TNS, but I understand that not being in their shoes, I am not one to judge the source of their feeling. And lastly I say that in this day-in-age, when the world can be so sterile and corporately structured and controlled, passion about anything is never ridiculous. It is to be applauded and encouraged.

--JJR :salute:

[Eric Paddon]

"Blind hatred of Moore and SCIFI is not going to get anyone a Continuation nor is it rational."

Excuse me Antelope, but this is not "blind hatred" of Moore, it's the result of having looked at what he's said with eyes open. There is nothing "irrational" about the perspective many like myself have chosen to take regarding Moore because at the very least when we choose to explain ourselves about it, we do so with regard to a specific body of facts, and don't just boil down our responses to a petulant one-sentence outburst laced with four letter words. You'd be right to complain about people who take that approach, but let's not lump those of us who try to express our feelings in a thoughtful, open way in the category of the "irrational."

"Anyone who reads EVERYTHING that has gone on with Moore knows he has reached out on many occasions."

Antelope, this is not going to wash with someone like me when you say, "Yes he has!" and then won't address the evidence on the other side of the equation that indicates otherwise. At least when Rigel posted what she in good faith felt were signs of this policy, I felt that those needed to be addressed. The least you could do, if you feel the total picture is on the other side, is to explain then the things Moore has said and done that paint a dramatically different picture of events.

"SCIFI who is so hated has also been the home of TOS for well over a decade now. They have been the sole entity keeping TOS on television for a long time. They are probably one of the leading entities that have kept TOS alive in the public during a large segment of TOS's post ABC existence. Despite all the failed start up attempts they are the one and only entity thus far to believe in the concept of "Battlestar Galactica" to have actually put product in front of a television audience since the end of BG80."

I'm afraid I don't get your point. That almost by inference could be read to mean that Sci-FI is exempt from criticism because they air TOS. In a similar vein, I applaud Universal for giving TOS the best release on DVD that *any* Universal series is likely to ever get (compare the Galactica supplements to the barebones releases of shows like "Night Gallery", "Columbo" etc.) but that doesn't mean Universal isn't guilty of demeaning the value of TOS in other areas too.

"SCIFI believed in "Battlestar Galactica" but did not believe a TOS Continuation was what was best for today's audience."

Moore's own words, that you keep saying we need to rely on, say otherwise. Why would he say in the DVD commentary that if he wanted to do a continuation, Sci-Fi, nor Universal would not have objected?

"I understand the feeling but focusing your anger on human beings about a television show is ridiculous. "

Antelope, it is not ridiculous, and as I said in my first post, this is not about a mere "television show" it's about something deeper that transcends the matter of whether there is ever a continuation or not. I'm sorry that you're not able to see it from that standpoint, but it really doesn't help to brand those of us who after many years see a lot of hurt pride and shattered hopes as somehow not being "rational" if we at least take the time to not express our feelings in an undignified manner (which I will grant you, many have done in other places).

[Antelope]

Excuse me Antelope, but this is not "blind hatred" of Moore, it's the result of having looked at what he's said with eyes open. There is nothing "irrational" about the perspective many like myself have chosen to take regarding Moore

Antelope, this is not going to wash with someone like me when you say, "Yes he has!" and then won't address the evidence on the other side of the equation that indicates otherwise.

this is not about a mere "television show"

Again you reference Moore and not the product. Ron Moore doesn't know you, me or anyone else here personally unless you are his friend, neighbor, or coworker. You hate a human being because he earns his living by making a television show you don't like.

You have read all the things I have over the past year or so. I don't need to repost them. You are not new here. If you want to ignore every post or article related to Moore reaching out to angry members of the TOS fan base I am not going to change your mind today. Those who don't want to see it call all his efforts pandering or insincere. Since neither of us know him personally nor can we see into his heart I think I will just say that for whatever reason he has made an effort.

Yes, it is about a television show. You may believe it is about more than a television show but I am pretty sure no one employed in the production of TOS, BG80, or TNS ever had any illusions that they were doing anything other than working on a television show.

Glen Larson and the other TOS writers were able to touch you in a deep way when they wrote scripts for a television show. Thank God that you were lucky enough to have such an experience. These things seldom happen for most people. Don't loose sight however that Glen Larson, Universal, and ABC weren't looking to give you or anyone else such an experience. They were trying to sell commercial air time to advertisers, sell childrens toys, make money on theatre ticket sales, and collect revenue off selling syndication rights.

Finally: Nothing Ron Moore or anyone else has or will do will ever destroy one episode of TOS. TOS will always be there. Ron Moore, SCIFI, Sky One, etc are creators of a new television series not destroyers of two former television series.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Antelope, to clarify what I said-

Moore said things BEFORE his "reaching out" that he has never apologized for.

Rigel, please be clear on this- I have no beef with nuBG fans unless they themselves act like buttheads ;)

My beef is with Hammer, Moore and Eich (who, amazing enough, has been left alone for the most part, yet some of HIS comments were of the worste tripe towards original fans!) and with how the show came into existance.

[Antelope]

Moore said things BEFORE his "reaching out" that he has never apologized for.


Moore's opinions on the actions and words of TOS fans are his opinions. Moore's opinions on the quality of TOS are Moore's opinions.

No one need apologize for their opinions. If he hasn't changed his mind on his opinions he has no need to say he now thinks he was wrong.

It looks to me that he has reached out to fans and in some sense expressed regret in how things happened or how his words were taken by elements of the fan base.

At this point there is nothing more for him to do. Basically this is what he has said when you boil it down:

"I am not sorry for what I did but I am sorry if I hurt your feelings."

Those of you who think he needs to apologize for what he did (which is really NOT MAKE A TOS CONTINUATION) will never get the apology you want.

[Darrell Lawrence]

I said apologize for things he said, not did.

Funny... you're posts are coming across as telling folks they are wrong in THEIR opinions, but Moore has a right to his.

Interesting....

[BST]

Antelope,

This Moore-worship of yours is tiresome. Does it not occur to you that folks are going to see things differently? Just as you seem to view Moore as doing "no wrong", there are others who are going to view him as doing "no right".

Personally, I find it amazing that he could be of such arrogance to openly alienate a portion of the Galactica fanbase, and potential audience, before his show even aired. Ratings data from Sky-One and Sci-Fi seem to indicate that the show is either slipping or barely keeping its audience.

Maybe he would have done well to have extended an olive branch or two.

[Antelope]

I said apologize for things he said, not did.

Funny... you're posts are coming across as telling folks they are wrong in THEIR opinions, but Moore has a right to his.

Interesting....

I do think their opinions are wrong, however I am not demanding anyone apologize to me for holding an opinion I find without merit.

I have respect for everyones right to an opinion accept when it comes to trying to force another human being to do something against their will. I do however think these calls are an attempt to punish and humiliate Moore for expressing nothing more than his opinions.

You can say Moore and Bonnie Hammer are fools and they are welcome to think you are a fool for saying so but don't think either one of you deserves an apology for expressing your opinion.

Contraversy in a nutshell:

Moore: I am going to remake Battlestar Galactica.

TOS only fan: You are a fool for not making a TOS Continuation.

Moore: You are a fool if you want a TOS Continuation.

TOS only fan: You are a mean person for calling me a fool.

Moore: I am sorry for calling you a fool but I still think your thoughts are foolish.

TOS only fan: I want you to admit I am not foolish.

[BST]

So, Moore's opinions are elevated above those of anyone else? Is that what you're saying?

[Darrell Lawrence]

Boy... talk about trying to take things out of context!
WHERE has it been said in this thread that either side called the other fools in regards to making whichever they prefered?

[Antelope]

This Moore-worship of yours is tiresome.

WTF?

Does it not occur to you that folks are going to see things differently? Just as you seem to view Moore as doing "no wrong", there are others who are going to view him as doing "no right".

HE MADE A TELEVISION SHOW THAT HURT THE FEELINGS OF SOME PEOPLE THAT WISHED ANOTHER VERSION WAS MADE INSTEAD.

Personally, I find it amazing that he could be of such arrogance to openly alienate a portion of the Galactica fanbase, and potential audience, before his show even aired.

ANY PRODUCTION THAT WAS NOT A TOS BASED CONTINUATION WOULD HAVE ALIENATED AN ELEMENT OF THE FAN BASE. MOORE AND SCIFI HAVE THE OPINION THAT LOOSING THIS PORTION OF THE FAN BASE WILL MORE THAN BE MADE UP BY PEOPLE WHO PREFER THE NEW STYLE OVER THE OLD STYLE. THIS IS ABOUT PERCEPTIONS OF THE POTENTIAL TARGET AUDIENCE NOT ARROGANCE.

Ratings data from Sky-One and Sci-Fi seem to indicate that the show is either slipping or barely keeping his audience.

JUST LIKE THOSE OTHER NEAR FAILURES ON SCIFI LIKE STARGATE AND STARGATE ATLANTIS.

Maybe he would have done well to have extended an olive branch or two.

HE HAS AND MOST TOS ONLY FANS DON'T CARE.


ANSWER IN CAPS IN QUOTE

[Antelope]

So, Moore's opinions are elevated above those of anyone else? Is that what you're saying?

I never said or implied that.

He doesn't owe anyone another apology nor was he ever plotting to hurt anyone.

[Antelope]

Boy... talk about trying to take things out of context!
WHERE has it been said in this thread that either side called the other fools in regards to making whichever they prefered?

I think "fool" is a simplification of what was in the post that started this thread. If anything "fool" does not assume intent which I believe the original poster implies also. Specifically I would look at this part of the original post:


"It would also help if the disinformation campaign would stop from Ron Moore's quarter as well beacuse his DVD commentary was the ultimate case of a man trying to dance on the grave of TOS and its fanbase as best he could."

[Antelope]

I think I need to remind people:

I am a TOS fan from the original air date, watched it in the theatre also, built a model viper and hung it from my bedroom cealing as a boy. I would have preferred a TOS based Continuation, in my opinion a restart immediately after Hand of God with new actors in the old roles.

Ron Moore did not create my preferred option, however he doesn't know me from Adam and never had any intent to hurt me or any other fan of TOS. He made what was in his opinion the best version of Battlestar Galactica. I think it was a mistake to go that route but that is what he and those who backed it with their wallets thought best.

Ron Moore however has suffered many verbal personal attacks as a result of his vision. When he used to respond to these attacks he was pillaried by a part of the TOS fan base. With hindsight being 20/20 he may have chosen his words better.

[Gemini1999]

I would like the time to say something....

I think that it was really thoughtful of Eric to attempt to start a thread that was based on some very thoughtful and in most ways, very respectful discussion. I don't know why when anyone makes this attempt it always degrades into a bitter diatribe regarding the TOS vs. TNS issue.

I think that it took a lot of courage for Eric to take the time to put his thoughts down for everyone to see and comment on. I don't think that it's necessary for someone to say that those opinions are either flawed or incorrect. How can an opinion be wrong, when it is soley that of the individual that's posting it. I can see how someone might either agree with the opinion or not, but as to what's wrong in this thread lies with those that are trying to find fault with Eric's opinion. He told us what he thought and why he feels the way he does.

I really don't know what to make of it, nor do I understand the reasoning to tear down what someone believes in. It would have been nice instead of a "tennis match" for some of the other members to try posting their views with as much thought as Eric has.

I wonder why do people feel threatened when Ron Moore isn't held to high esteem by everyone? (I'm not looking for an answer in this thread) I hear people that complain about Glen Larson all the time - some of those from within the TOS side of the community, but I don't see people getting bent out of shape over it. He had some good ideas and some successful shows, but it's not like he's the "god of television" for doing so. The same with Ron Moore - he's had some successes and some that aren't, but hardly worth canonizing for his efforts.

I'd like to see people be more respectful of each other and focus more on talking about the ideas and not the people behind them.

Best regards,
Bryan

[nextceo]

Good point Bryan and thanks for bringing this conversation back to the original point. :thumbsup:

[Dawg]

Based on what I've seen and heard, I believe Moore's intent was to get people talking. The quickest and easiest way to get people talking is to piss them off.

He succeeded.

Time and time again he has deliberately made himself the target. He walked into the panel at Galacticon with the announcement "I'm the one who killed Kirk". He told us not to get mad at Bonnie Hammer, because what was up on that screen now was his, not hers. Apparently in the DVD he takes that a step further by saying that Hammer and Universal would have been fine continuing to work on what Tom DeSanto had started.

He has been condescending and dismissive of the existing fanbase from the get-go.

Yet he 'reached out' to us? By asking for advice after the production on the miniseries was in the can? By inserting minimalized snippets of music or - get this - chair swiveling - on ten seconds of tape?

He did it on purpose, antelope. He wanted the friction, he wanted the controversy, he wanted the fighting, he wanted it focused on him and his show. That's why that idiot Eick got away with what he said. That's why Bonnie Hammer is in Moore's shadow. This is Moore's show, this is Moore's arena of his own making.

Brilliant. Just brilliant. There is no such thing as bad publicity, and we gave it to him by the bucketful.

But none of it changes the way he spoke to us, the way he spoke of us - and you - as being irrelevant and not worthy of consideration. And don't misunderstand - as a fan of his show you are relevant only as long as you watch it. Your wishes and wants are secondary, and will be dismissed the instant they do not conform with his universe. Just as ours were.

He deserves what he gets, because it's exactly what he asked for.

My hat's off to him.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Fragmentary]

Television is a business and Ron Moore is a professional. He made a business decision based on his years of experience and that was to re-make the show, not continue it. The show has been a success for both of its networks and has been rewarded with a second, and much longer, season. Right now, at this point in history, it looks like Moore made the right decision. Both for his employer and for his career. That’s all any one of us hopes to do on a day-to-day basis. And when it comes right down to it, that’s all any of this is to him… its just the job that he goes to every day to put food on the table and take care of his family. It’s a great job, and one that I’m sure he loves, but at the end of day it’s just as irritating as everyone else’s.

For some fans, obviously, it’s some kind of bigger issue; a war of ethical standards on television, or rude disrespect to a sacred piece of their childhood nostalgia, or some personal insult derived from a man who they’ve never met, about a show they’ve never worked on, in an industry they know nothing at all about.

I guess these kinds of arguments will continue, but luckily they are less and less often and less and less venomous. Compare now to a year ago, the anger just isn’t as a harsh. TOS fans are either being converted or moving on, either way it’s becoming more and more pleasant to talk about both shows for everyone involved.

I saw Ron Moore at a convention this past weekend. It was very nice. He came out and there was no booing. He answered questions from fans for half an hour and no one said anything disrespectful or snarky. He was very complimentary of Richard Hatch and BSG fans. In fact, someone asked what he thought of fan fic and he encouraged everyone to write any kind they wanted. It was nice to see people listening to him speak, then seeing the same people talking to Richard Hatch at his table.

Galactica’s fan base is shifting. The anger is cooling and the defensiveness is lessening. Myopic microcosms like the Battlestar Beefs forum might be the last place to see these changes, but they are happening. Hopefully, it’s just going to get better and better to be a fan from here on out. And part of making that happen is to bite your tongue and walk away. Everyone could stand to stop attacking or defending once in a while and just go to another thread and talk about something else.

[Antelope]

He told us not to get mad at Bonnie Hammer, because what was up on that screen now was his, not hers. Apparently in the DVD he takes that a step further by saying that Hammer and Universal would have been fine continuing to work on what Tom DeSanto had started.


With one sentence Ron Moore absolves all Bonnie Hammer's "sins". I guess all the hate mail and hate threads about her were for nothing or a mistake. Anyone going to apologize to her? Of course not.

This thread from post number one went after Ron Moore. Then the cavalcade came out to cheer it on and still does.

How about a thread that says, "TOS meant XYZ to me and I was really hurt when TNS came out because it means ABC to me." instead of one more rant against the arrogant Ron Moore who is dancing on the grave of TOS.

In the end most anti-Moore rants assume either Moore intentionally does what he does because he hates TOS and TOS fans or Moore believed from Day 1 that a non-TOS based version wouldn't be successful unless he ginned up a contraversy. The first belief is simply irrational and the second belief if true would imply that Moore would have made a TOS based Continuation instead which he didn't.

How about this for an idea: Moore did what he wanted to do and thought would work best. Although not his intention he knew from the get go it would piss off some people so he simply made an omlette with his broken eggs. SCIFI made a marketing plan that took the reality of a vocal element of the TOS fanbase into consideration.

[nextceo]

I'll take Bryan's observation and hopefully comment on my thoughts. I also want to say, as I did in my first post in this thread that I understand Eric's frustration. I should also add that I respect his taking the time to make the points that he did and to share with us his thoughts and feelings. I'd also like to take the time to share mine. This is not to be intended as a shot at TNS haters, but simply to share with all of you my feelings of how things are as I see them. I hope not to offend but share, but as we all know with the emotions engaged in this discussion some may take it as such.

First, as I have stated many times before, I do understand the feelings people have because I was a and AM a strong TOS fan, who participated in the letter writing campaigns of the early and later days, even signed the online petition saying I would not watch a reimagining of the show. I sent letters to Universal and Bonnie Hammer herself, which I'm sure she likely didn't read. I even had articles posted on battlestargalactica.com when Richard was fighting for a continuation in which I pointed out how I felt Sci-Fi was making a bad decision. As a teenager I used to set my clock around finding reruns of TOS in syndication and would spend hours flipping between stations looking for an episode when it was scheduled to show but for some reason was not broadcast. I loved Apollo and Starbuck, Adama and Boomer, and most notably Sheba who I had my first crush on (and why I always enjoy Julix posting because of her Sheba avatar, it brings back so many good memories! ;) ). So when I say I understand how those of you feel who stongly dislike TNS and those of you who actually hate it, I do mean it and I beleive have the credibility in my background to back that comment up.

I didn't want to watch the mini, but couldn't help it. I loved BSG and decided I wanted to at least give the mini a chance. So I watched it, and you know what I fell in love with the new show. I understand some dislike it for the actual content, as we all disagree on shows, some dislike and hate it simply because it came to be. I can understand that even watching TNS can be painful for some of you, so how can you be expected to really enjoy much about it? You can't and I have come to that realization. I really no longer feel the need to try and change the opinions of those who dislike TNS, because I understand those feelings aren't going to change. I do however feel the need to defend the show when I feel that people are attacking it simply out of hate and not for artistic reasons. This is why I just wish the attacking would stop. Look we don't all have to be fanboys and can disagree on content, but some of the hatred that is spewed is difficult for us to take who love the show. Just as some TNS fans like to run down TOS, it pisses you off, so don't you think that those of us who love TNS would feel the same way when you berate the show and its creators? Do I support RDM maybe a little more than I should, sure of course I do because I appreciate his vision. You may not and that is fine. But please don't run down the show I love, because you have a chip on your shoulder.

As a film maker myself I have a certain understanding of the creative process of creating a show. Certainly not on a scale like BSG but I do have a basic understanding, and because of that I can understand why RDM went the way he did. As an artist he wanted to create something that he personally identifies with and suits what he feels can be successful. He did not have a desire to to a continuation. Nuff said. Right or wrong that was his decision. Villifying him because he follows his passion for what he feels will make the show successful doesn't solve anything. Should they have named it BSG? I think so, to me the show is very similar to the original but done to fit into todays viewing habits and likes. I'm sure those of you will disagree with me, that is fine, I just want to say that I get the vision of what is going on in TNS and buy it, some of us do, some don't. I love the gritty feel. I love the way everyone has their foibles and problems, and I love how as the season is progressing you are beginning to see people overcome their problems and become the heroic people they can be. To me it is very satifying to see a character overcome so much to become a better person, a better leader, a better friend, then for them to be perfect in the first place. I love the original Apollo, but look the guy was pretty close to perfect. And he was someone to look up to because of his heroic character. The new Apollo is not perfect, had a chip on his shoulder and struggled to become the CAG. The guy came to a ship that he didn't get along with his father, was thrust into a leadership position he wasn't quite ready for with a group of pilots he hadn't ever flown with. So he made mistakes and had problems. But you know what, as the season has progressed his character has grown up, has taken responsibility and is starting to become (I emphasize starting) that heroic figure the old Apollo was. I respect and appreciate that character growth, it appeals to me. I enjoy the heroic nature of overcoming your personal problems and issues to become a better person. To some of you it does not. I respect that, but the TNS way works for me.

The one great thing about fleets is the ability for TNS and TOS fans to come together and share. But when people get hateful, no one wants to come here and share. It tears me up to see a show I love and breathe for again get shredded by people because they even hate its existence. Again I understand your feelings for not liking the show, but please when you look to vent about the show, realize there are those of us who love TNS the way you love TOS and it tears us up inside to see you criticize it the way people who don't understand TOS criticize it. Please, don't say well you know what TNS people started it or RDM started it, or whatever, so we are simply giving back what you all started. Two wrongs don't make a right. You know what I didn't start anything. I don't want to criticize TOS. I just ask that you be better than what other people have been when criticizing TOS. So in the end, I guess my feeling is if you don't have something nice to say, just don't say it. Constructive criticism is one thing, pure hate for the sake of hate is another. My 2 cubits.

One last thing, I love all you guys for your passion for the shows, TNS, TOS etc. That is what is great about fans is the passion we have for the shows we love.

[Gemini1999]

Nextceo -

Now, that's some thoughtful posting! Much more refreshing than the tired old arguments.....thank you!

Anyone else? Or is this where it degrades into chuntering on about the same old thing in the same old way?

I like the way Eric started it out and I like the way that Nextceo's followed up in kind. It'd be nice if we could use this as a benchmark for discussion from here on out.

I'm also jealous that you went to the con in Pasadena.......I wanted to, but practicality won out on that one....!

Best,
Bryan

[justjackrandom]

My hat's off to him.

As is mine to you...again. :salute:


It isn't just the insight, but the artful simplicity and directness of statement that I am in awe of.

:star:

-JJR

[Fragmentary]

Nextceo,
Gemini1999 is right. That was a great post. Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts down. :salute: :Nsalute:

[Eric Paddon]

I think this discussion has been very interesting and productive on a lot of levels. If my post succeeded in doing that, then I for one am quite grateful.

However, I am quite disappointed in some of the remarks you make, Antelope, that do not indicate to me at least, a good faith willingness to have a true dialogue in the way that I see TNS fans like Rigel and nextceo doing.

"Again you reference Moore and not the product. Ron Moore doesn't know you, me or anyone else here personally unless you are his friend, neighbor, or coworker. You hate a human being because he earns his living by making a television show you don't like."

This is just ridiculous. Have you heard me express a wish that Ron Moore get run over by a car, or heard me say that Ron Moore should burn in Hell for this? That's my definition of what constitutes hate. This is all about my judgment on his specific acts and deeds with regard to an end=product called "Battlestar Galactica" and those are fair game for judgment as the actions of anyone else with regard to any particular thing in life. I don't have a high opinion of Moore because of what he's said and done with regard to this, but let's not confuse that with "hate" because those kinds of words get back to the point I made in my initial post about why my frustration over recent events also is due to the fact that the word "hate" is being recklessly applied in some quarters to those who are still upset over what's gone on.

"You have read all the things I have over the past year or so. I don't need to repost them. You are not new here. If you want to ignore every post or article related to Moore reaching out to angry members of the TOS fan base I am not going to change your mind today."

Antelope, this is not a matter of my "ignorning" anything. When you or someone else posts what you regard as evidence of Moore reaching out, I at least try to address that specific matter and explain why I do not feel it can be so construed that way. And if I'm to judge those things fairly, I have to take into account as well the things that I don't see you doing. I have seen you for instance talk about how the new Starbuck is clearly meant to be Sheba but that's a hard comment to reconcile in light of the fact that Moore admitted he watched nothing but the cut-down pilot in terms of preparing this show. And it's looking at that totality of the picture that I feel you're not doing in this instance.

"Yes, it is about a television show. You may believe it is about more than a television show but I am pretty sure no one employed in the production of TOS, BG80, or TNS ever had any illusions that they were doing anything other than working on a television show."

Antelope, what has that got to do with the issue? This is about what we as a fanbase have latched onto for many years, and this is also about having to overcome a lot of obstacles put in our way over the years with false information about TOS as "ratings flop", "cheesy", and "Star Wars ripoff", only to see years of patience rendered null and void by reimagining the property in a way that I'm sorry to say is of a vision more in synch with the ideas of those who ripped and bashed TOS from the get-go and haven't let up all these years later.

"Finally: Nothing Ron Moore or anyone else has or will do will ever destroy one episode of TOS. "

No, just diminish their importance and allow such epithets as "cheesy rip-off" to become an ingrained truth about TOS in order to justify their campaign to declare TNS as the perfect telling of this story. And fighting that perception for the last 20 years is one thing I've tried to do as a Galactica fan, and it doesn't sit well to see in so many non-Galactica outlets a neverending tone that wants to reinforce the phony conventional wisdom about TOS.

Also, Antelope, regarding your hostility to what I called the "disinformation campaign" in the initial post, it might help if you just explain what sort of positive spin I'm supposed to take out of three men proclaiming (1) that TOS never had a syndication package (2) that Galactica endured only as a name for 20 years thanks only to Universal's PR department and (3) the smug cackling Moore engaged in over how not reaching out to TOS fanbase helped more ultimately? It doesn't help when you dismiss all of that with a generalized post of indignation over being critical of Moore and company without addressing any of the specifics.

[Antelope]

1. Hate the sin not the sinner.

2. I agree with Nextceo.

3. I don't subscribe to the view this thread started under a similar thread of feeling. Reread the initial post. Moore dancing on the grave of TOS is not my original thought it comes from the first post.

4. I only jump into these threads nowadays when PEOPLE are getting attacked as we are well beyond changing anyones view of the shows. I did the same thing in Sandy's defense at Ragnar Anchorage and got a similar beating. That's why I am fond of saying both sides have people who are on opposite sides but on the same coin.

[Darrell Lawrence]

3. I don't subscribe to the view this thread started under a similar thread of feeling. Reread the initial post. Moore dancing on the grave of TOS is not my original thought it comes from the first post.

:LOL: Why does he, the one that wrote the thing to start with, need to re-read what started the thread?

I'm quite certain, since he's the one that posted it, that he knows what he meant :LOL:

4. I only jump into these threads nowadays when PEOPLE are getting attacked as we are well beyond changing anyones view of the shows. I did the same thing in Sandy's defense at Ragnar Anchorage and got a similar beating. That's why I am fond of saying both sides have people who are on opposite sides but on the same coin.

The only one I've seen in this thread attacking people is you in regards to their opinions.

[Eric Paddon]

"I don't subscribe to the view this thread started under a similar thread of feeling. Reread the initial post. Moore dancing on the grave of TOS is not my original thought it comes from the first post."

I made that remark for a specific reason regarding the specific actions of Moore, Eick and the director on the DVD. You can address the specifics of what they said to explain why such a characterization is not accurate and try to make the case for that, but kindly refrain from lumping me in the category of spreading "hate" for an indvidual because that is not only inaccurate, it also validates as I said the original point I made as to why people like myself get frustrated because we sense we're being falsely stigmitized with epithets about spreading "hate" that are not justified.

Of course if you had really bothered to read the full post, Antelope, you would have discovered that most of it was not aimed at reciting a laundry list of what Moore had done to offend me as a TOS fan, it was aimed at describing a general state of mind among those who feel as I do. I find it disappointing to see you mischaracterize it for the sake of trying to show your total devotion to Ron Moore on everything as a man above all forms of criticism.

[Dawg]

Actually, my 'anti-Moore rant' above was a backhanded complement to the man. He got what he wanted by deliberately setting himself up as a target. And what he wanted was talk. It didn't matter if it was angry talk, or anything else. It was talk.

And I wasn't commenting about the equally-deserved "Broomstick Bonnie" diatribes of the past.

But I do apologize because that is not the topic of this thread.

I find myself in a curious place right now. I am not a religious man. Nor am I puritanical in the least. So from my personal perspectives, I wouldn't terribly care what religion is portrayed or how much skin is shown on screen - or how often or how graphic the sexual interludes are portrayed.

I am also a fan of 'realistic' TV. Note the quotes, please - no real situation is going to get resolved in an hour, but I've enjoyed CSI, ER, etc. I also enjoy many of the medical shows on TLC that get quite graphic.

But when we're talking about Battlestar Galactica.....

It troubles me that the Colonials in this new version are portrayed as giving their religion haphazard attention. It bothers me that it is a polytheistic belief. It bothers me that it's the enemy of man who bears the devotion to a single God.

In the original, they are led by a warrior/priest in Adama. They followed one God and, during the course of the series, asked for and recieved the guidance of 'saints and angels' - the Lords of Kobol and 'beings of light'. Adama was strong, truthful; when he was asked if he knew where Earth was, he said 'no', but he did so in such a way that he inspired those who followed him to keep to his path. These Colonials have strong roots in their past, both as faith and as history.

The new - well, the Colonials are supposed to be us. But rather than give them the strong faith that many of us have and was depicted in the original, they have been portrayed so far as spiritually weak, the worshippers (when they worship) of multiple gods - the Lords of Kobol.

The new Cylons, though, claim to be doing the will of a single God - they are the real-world's Al-Qaida and other extremist terrorists.

And please, please don't try to tell me that I've got this wrong. Moore himself has said the inspiration for these was 9/11 and the War on Terror - and the depictions are typical of the 'got what we deserved' mentality of propogandist Michael Moore and his ilk. There are too many blatant, in-your-face indicators for there to be any debate about who these people are supposed to be.

Where he takes it remains to be seen, however.

Then there are the characters. No resemblance whatsoever to any of the characters of the original. Don't give me any crap about composits from other movies or whatnot - When I see Battlestar Galactica on the marquee I expect to see characters from Battlestar Galactica - including a guy named Starbuck who is a flirt and a cigar smoker. There is no such character on this new show.

The same for the rest of them. They do not resemble their namesakes from 1978 in any way.

So, while my approach to Battlestar Galactica is from a different perspective than Eric's, I find myself in complete agreement with him on the subject.

So if you want to give Moore a pass on his behavior, that's not unexpected - that's today's society, where nobody is held accountable for hurtful behavior. I realize he behaved that way for a specific purpose, but he hurt a lot of people in the process. But since we got the renewal, I guess all is forgiven.

Anyway, that's all I have to say on the subject.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Antelope]

Eric:

You still blame Ron Moore personally for what he did to you. Spin your words that's the bottomline.

Ron Moore doesn't know who you are and didn't do anything to you.

TOS is not a living being. No one can harm it.

Last I heard no one who post here receives hate mail or death threats. That's something some involved in the production of TNS can't say.

Good luck, this is it for me on this thread.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Just to let ya know, Antelope, your assumptions are wrong.

I *have* received hate mail and death threats before regarding nuBG, back when I was webmaster of Richard's websites.

I also have met Moore a couple of times, so I do know him and he does know me in person.

[Eric Paddon]

Ron Moore doesn't know who you are and didn't do anything to you.

To me, that's like saying Art Modell did nothing to the fans of Cleveland when he took the Browns out despite 40 years of the most loyal fans you could have asked for, or when Walter O'Malley did the same to the people of Brooklyn when he took the Dodgers to Los Angeles. The principle is the same from my perspective.

Last I heard no one who post here receives hate mail or death threats. That's something some involved in the production of TNS can't say.

So what? Are any of us here at this board sending Moore death threats? And just to stick to my sports analogy, Art Modell can never set foot in Cleveland again or else he's liable to get lynched, and that's unfortunate and I condemn every person who sent him a death threat, but to me Art Modell is still a bum who stabbed the fans of Cleveland in the back. In the same vein, I condemn every person who ever sent Moore a death threat as a sick bum in need of help, but that can't be used as a crutch to exempt the man from what's meant to be reasonably expressed criticism as best as can be done.

[Eric Paddon]

Incidentally, to Nextceo, you made a very good post that I applaud and which I will address later when I have more time. Sorry this volley with Antelope has distracted me from doing that.

[nextceo]

I think while RDM drew inspiration from current events as he has so noted in the past, I don't think he is trying to totally duplicate current situations, simply extrapolate on them for us to look at our current situation and ask questions. Yes the Cylons have an Al Qaida parallel, and the colonials, many of whom are pretty wishy washy on their religious beleifs. I think that actually does typify a lot of the western world. Especially Europe, which is very wishy washy spritually and this is beginning to be prevalent in the U.S. as well. Most people I know are wishy washy spiritually, they call themselves Christians or spiritual, but they often don't practice. There are a number of people I know who are strong in faith, but they are becoming the exception rather than the norm, as you see with the colonials. So I can see the parallel. This is something as a culture we must look out for, remembering what we are fighting for, because our enemies beleive they are driven by God to do whatever is necessary to erradicate our way of life. We as a western civilization need to wake up and smell the coffee of the enemies we are faced with and to what lengths they will go to destroy us. The U.S. by a bare majority I beleive understands this, but much of the rest of the west does not. I do like how after Leoben's death Starbuck did pray for him and went back to something she didn't really practice much... Will the colonials turn back to religion and prophecy? Only time will tell...

[nextceo]

Thanks Eric, I appreciate your comments. :mushies: Mushies all around! I'm buying!

[nextceo]

I can also understand peoples dislike for the colonial polythiestic faith... I beleive and have seen RDM state that his reason for giving the colonials that faith was for writing opportunities and to more drastically differentiate the differences between the Cylons and Colonials.

[mocha2112]

I think while RDM drew inspiration from current events as he has so noted in the past, I don't think he is trying to totally duplicate current situations, simply extrapolate on them for us to look at our current situation and ask questions. Yes the Cylons have an Al Qaida parallel, and the colonials, many of whom are pretty wishy washy on their religious beleifs. I think that actually does typify a lot of the western world. Especially Europe, which is very wishy washy spritually and this is beginning to be prevalent in the U.S. as well. Most people I know are wishy washy spiritually, they call themselves Christians or spiritual, but they often don't practice. There are a number of people I know who are strong in faith, but they are becoming the exception rather than the norm, as you see with the colonials. So I can see the parallel. This is something as a culture we must look out for, remembering what we are fighting for, because our enemies beleive they are driven by God to do whatever is necessary to erradicate our way of life. We as a western civilization need to wake up and smell the coffee of the enemies we are faced with and to what lengths they will go to destroy us. The U.S. by a bare majority I beleive understands this, but much of the rest of the west does not. I do like how after Leoben's death Starbuck did pray for him and went back to something she didn't really practice much... Will the colonials turn back to religion and prophecy? Only time will tell...

With all due respect -

If I wanted to watch a show about "us", that is 21st century Earth, I'd watch a show NOT called "Battlestar Galactica". ;) I'd watch "ER" or "CSI" or a dumb "reality" show. But when I watched TOS, there was a sense that these people were really far away and had technology I didn't and could fly through space in vipers yet somehow weren't all that different from me/us. Even though they had dumb words for the different intervals of time, you knew want they meant. And first seeing the characters in a good light, then showing some flaws made me care more for them. It was more fun.

TNS looks like America, feels like America, same political structure ( I swear if they do an episode where the Presidential Election needs a recount, I'll scream ;) ), people wear ties like American business men - it's just TOO much like today. This show doesn't need to be told in outer space, it could be told anywhere in North America. It's just not "out there" enough. And since, to me, all of the characters are basically dysfunctional, it's hard to like any of them. Maybe it's a character flaw in me, but I kind of need a reason to like a character first, then I can sympathize with his or her short comings. In the mini, all we got was their short comings. Geeze, even the ship's doctor is mean, smoking in front of a cancer patient. (Episode 4?) That's not funny, that's mean. Isn't there one single nice person left alive out of the 50,000? If not, then I'm rooting for the Cylons.

I'm with those who say Ron and company haven't been especially kind to TOS fans. But I also feel he doesn't give a s*&% either. That's does hurt. And yet, I do go and read the blog and listen to the commentaries - although it's gotten to the point where I can only listen and read about episodes I actually liked. I can't stand to hear him pat himself on the back for things in an episode that just didn't work for me. And there's even a small piece of me that would like to see TNS fail, and yet I still watch. Explain that one to me, folks. ;)

thanks for you time....

[Antelope]

Just to let ya know, Antelope, your assumptions are wrong.

I *have* received hate mail and death threats before regarding nuBG, back when I was webmaster of Richard's websites.

I also have met Moore a couple of times, so I do know him and he does know me in person.

As mentioned before the jackasses that do those things are on both sides.

Were the death threats to Richard (and/or you) before and/or after he went on the TNS bandwagon? Were they from TOS only, TNS only fans, or both? I saw Richard take a lot of heat when he buried the hatchet.

Warrior: I never said you disparage Moore personally. I would have to recheck your post. The post that did initiate this thread did as well as others however.

There's a big difference between saying a show sucks as opposed to the creator is an evil arrogant SOB. If people can't see the difference, what can I say. Live in lala land.

Do you think Moore dances on the grave of TOS? If you don't why support this kind of feldergarb. You met the man and Richard works with him. Is he an arrogant SOB that lives to destroy TOS and its fans or is he just a man earning his living in Hollywood? You can't play it both ways.

[BST]

Do you think Moore dances on the grave of TOS?



Yes. When all is said and done, he wants his rendition of Battlestar Galactica to be just that, "Battlestar Galactica", without qualification. He will do whatever is needed to achieve that goal.

[jewels]

Duh. What network executive is going to put a cartoon/anime on in primetime?

Fox: Simpsons, Family Man, South Park (?)

Cartoon network. Actually soon to be calling themselves "Adult Swim" in the evening. (sorry if someone else answered already. Been busy.

Disney channel occaisionally runs it's animated features at night.

[Eric Paddon]

Antelope, you are once again staking out a position that Ron Moore is exempt from all forms of criticism. And you are also once again deliberately mischaracterizing the initial post of this thread when you suggest it was solely about Ron Moore. Rigel and Nexceo are two TNS fans who understand what it was about, so it shouldn't be impossible for you to understand it as well.

[Fragmentary]

Also, Antelope, regarding your hostility to what I called the "disinformation campaign" in the initial post, it might help if you just explain what sort of positive spin I'm supposed to take out of three men proclaiming (1) that TOS never had a syndication package (2) that Galactica endured only as a name for 20 years thanks only to Universal's PR department and (3) the smug cackling Moore engaged in over how not reaching out to TOS fanbase helped more ultimately? It doesn't help when you dismiss all of that with a generalized post of indignation over being critical of Moore and company without addressing any of the specifics.
When exactly did any of them say that there was not a syndication package? I’ve never read this quote. 2. It has endured in the general consciousness for that exact reason. They (Universal’s PR) have been able to insert it into commercials, reference it in TV shows and through deals with comics, books, and syndication outlets, they’ve kept it alive for the average person. Fans can pat themselves on the back all they want, but fanzines and a handful of websites in the early days of the internet did NOT keep the show alive for 25 years. 3. Olsmos’ comments did in fact generate more buzz in the media than any of Moore’s nice overtures did. So he’s actually very right about that.

Of course if you had really bothered to read the full post, Antelope, you would have discovered that most of it was not aimed at reciting a laundry list of what Moore had done to offend me as a TOS fan, it was aimed at describing a general state of mind among those who feel as I do. I find it disappointing to see you mischaracterize it for the sake of trying to show your total devotion to Ron Moore on everything as a man above all forms of criticism.
Now, who’s criticizing someone for their opinion? And whether or not your initial post contained direct criticisms of the man instead of the show, that was 3 pages ago and you have most certainly done so since then.

So if you want to give Moore a pass on his behavior, that's not unexpected - that's today's society, where nobody is held accountable for hurtful behavior. I realize he behaved that way for a specific purpose, but he hurt a lot of people in the process. But since we got the renewal, I guess all is forgiven.
What?
I don’t have to give Moore a pass for anything. So far, no one has been able to show me anything that he’s said that needs to be apologized for. His open letter about the show, his commentary for the DVD and his blogs for the current season contain nothing that attacks the fan base or is spiteful toward the old show. Clearly, Eric takes it differently, but I don’t agree with his interpretations at all. If Moore has said things prior to this like Warrior claims, then by all means show me the quotes and a reliable source.
If people’s feeling were hurt because he didn’t make the show they wanted, that’s tough, but he wasn’t hired to make the show that internet fans wanted, so he didn’t do anything wrong. He did what he was hired to do.
Comments like this one and Eric’s crack about Moore not having earned an “ethical right” to re-imagine the show just smack of so much righteous indignation. :rolleyes:

[Darrell Lawrence]

Were the death threats to Richard (and/or you) before and/or after he went on the TNS bandwagon? Were they from TOS only, TNS only fans, or both? I saw Richard take a lot of heat when he buried the hatchet.

Re-read my post. Did I say Richard, or did I say me? ;)

You met the man and Richard works with him. Is he an arrogant SOB that lives to destroy TOS and its fans or is he just a man earning his living in Hollywood? You can't play it both ways.

...ummm Yes, he plays it both ways. He is egotistical and is a man earning a living in Hollywood.

Mind you, when you want to hear what you want to hear, the go thing can go either way.

I am sure there are nuBG fans that have talked to him and will say he's not egotistical or arrogant, while there are other people that have talked to him that come away with an entirely different view.

To me personally, in the times I did talk to him, he came across as egotistical.

[Eric Paddon]

When exactly did any of them say that there was not a syndication package? I’ve never read this quote.

You couldn't have read it, because as I said several times, it was in the DVD commentary.


2. It has endured in the general consciousness for that exact reason.

No it has not. The endurance of a one-season television show's popularity after 20 plus years has to do with its fanbase, and the loyalty of that fanbase. Universal would not have found it worth referencing to begin with were it not for the acknowledgment that there is such a fanbase to begin with. The credit belongs to that fanbase, and for those three men to suggest it's only been smart marketing without mentioning that fanbase is something I can only call another slap at the group they have little regard for.


3. Olsmos’ comments did in fact generate more buzz in the media than any of Moore’s nice overtures did. So he’s actually very right about that.

That isn't the point. The point had to do with the smug cackling from Moore and company as they just about took delight in noting that not cooperating with the fans brought them more publicity than they could have imagined.


So far, no one has been able to show me anything that he’s said that needs to be apologized for.

So in other words, Ron Moore's conduct has been a flawless model of perfect respect demonstrated toward TOS and its fanbase?

If people’s feeling were hurt because he didn’t make the show they wanted, that’s tough, but he wasn’t hired to make the show that internet fans wanted, so he didn’t do anything wrong.

First off, I'd be careful about characterizing those who wanted a continuation for the last 25 years as just a group of "internet fans" and second, I would also note that Ron Moore's own words on that DVD commentary render null and void the argument you're making that Sci-Fi hired him to do a reinvention. He has said that was all his doing. So I think it's time we put this idea of Moore just hired to fulfill a specific mandate from Sci-Fi to rest.

Comments like this one and Eric’s crack about Moore not having earned an “ethical right” to re-imagine the show just smack of so much righteous indignation. :rolleyes:

I already explained the analogous situation to that in professional sports where Moore's behavior is a perfect parallel. And to this date, no one blames the fans of Cleveland for having righteous indignation toward Art Modell (not even the Balitmore fans) or has suggested there's illegitimacy toward holding such views.

[Eric Paddon]

And now, as I promised before, my response to Nextceo.

I really no longer feel the need to try and change the opinions of those who dislike TNS, because I understand those feelings aren't going to change. I do however feel the need to defend the show when I feel that people are attacking it simply out of hate and not for artistic reasons.

I put myself in the category of those who think one can criticize something that suffers from no flaws in execution, like acting, writing etc. and still find cause to be critical of it on general, philosopical grounds. I feel that fairness requires I not comment on what happens in individual episodes that I have not seen or in what directions TNS is going in. Because ultimately, for one like myself, it isn't relevant what happens in TNS' storyline because the damage has already been done in terms of what does TNS represent and stand for in terms of a philosophical-religious-political perspective on things. That's one thing that I don't think ever can fundamentally change no matter what happens in TNS so that's why ultimately I prefer to confine myself solely to the issue of why TNS is objectionable to me on those grounds and why those particular grounds cut very deep for one like myself who thinks that what's happening is that in reinventing Galactica by changing the philosophical-religious perspective, I'm once again seeing a case of a particular Hollywood attitude rubbing itself in my face again in ways that it's been done in the past on things other than Galactica. For me, this is not simply about what's been done to an entity called "Battlestar Galactica" it's my frustration over seeing a Hollywood attitude of shoving a particular agenda at me once again, and this time it's being done on something I used to always see as standing proud and alone against the prevailing conventional wisdom of secular Hollywood attitudes typical in most science-fiction.

Maybe if I felt there was a tradition of greater political and philosophic diversity in science fiction television, in which Galactica was not the only series that embodied a philosophy that a conservative Christian like myself could enjoy, it'd be easier to come to terms with this. I'd have a few more fallback options available in this genre, but unfortunately I don't and never have. Galactica's been all alone in that regard, and now that's been taken. Dawg I think is absolutely right when he says that TNS caters more to the tastes of those who came away enjoying "Fahrenheit 9/11" whereas TOS caters more to the tastes of those who voted the other way (I recognize that there can be a danger in oversimplifying this, because certainly there are fans on both sides of the aisle politically for both, but I think it can be generally conceded that TOS leans more conservative in a lot of things than do other shows of the day, and certainly more so than TNS).

This is why I just wish the attacking would stop. Look we don't all have to be fanboys and can disagree on content, but some of the hatred that is spewed is difficult for us to take who love the show. .

I'd like to see it stop too, but I think a lot of that could be guaranteed with a simple change in attitude and approach from the people responsible for TNS. The DVD commentary was something I didn't want to listen to, but I felt I had to because I really wanted to look for something I could come away with thinking was an olive branch to TOS fanbase and give me cause to overcome the anger I've felt these many months. And sadly, I heard nothing to come away with and only ended up with the feeling that Ron Moore is determined to marginalize the legacy of TOS into some badly made end-product of a bygone era.


As an artist he wanted to create something that he personally identifies with and suits what he feels can be successful. He did not have a desire to to a continuation. Nuff said. Right or wrong that was his decision.

I still feel though, nextceo, that that raises a serious ethical question, and I say that not as a mere fan, but as a writer myself who over the last decade has written some two dozen TOS fanfics as well as fanfics for other shows, and whose first obligation is always to make sure that I am violating nothing established by the creators vision of this. I've written fanfics for Columbo, and no matter how much I'd like to show the Lieutenant's wife and reveal his first name and put him in an unconventional story in a good story, I would never do that because it would violate the integrity of the show and the character. Likewise, when I write TOS fanfic I make sure that what I do follows and expands on what was given to us in the series and does not alter things to suit my own narrow perspective. If I want to "create" something I can identify with in all facets, then I at least would consider it incumbent on myself to go completely original and not rely on someone else's work as a crutch to alter the vision of what the original represented.

What you say about the character growth factor compared to TOS is one of those things I could live with and accept. I could even live with the gender switches. If you wanted to boil it down to just a few things Moore could have done that would have enabled me to accept things and move on, it would be these, and I would be interested to know if you think it wouldn't have been too much to have done these things:

1-Keep the conflict between Human and Cylon the way it was in TOS and do not fall back on an old cliche of "man's creation turning on him." All that does is bring in the "we brought this on ourselves" kind of thinking that is simply not true to TOS, because TOS offered instead a struggle of moral clarity where the enemy was ultimately revealed to be the Devil's own creation (in WOTG).

2-Keep Adama a man of faith, and just have him say truthfully "I don't know where Earth is, but I have faith we will find it." Olmos stated that the lying to give hope carries with it the very ugly subtext that the things we look to to have faith in, such as religion, are ultimately the false creations of devious men to fool the gullible. That too is not true to the spirit of TOS.

3-Keep Colonial religion monotheistic.

Had these three things been done, the problem would be 80% solved in terms of major objections from my standpoint because only then would I feel that the core was intact and everything else I didn't like would all be in the details. Do you think that if we had these three things and no other changes to what presently exists, would the alterations from what presently exists be so great?

I'll really be interested in what you have to say on this as well as what other TNS fans like Rigel might think about that. If the answer would be yes, then it would ultimately reveal how Moore only needed to compromise just a little bit.

In the meantime, thanks for writing your feelings on this subject.

[Mustex]

Mustex,

Interpretation of a quote is like beauty - it's in the eye of the beholder.

In other words, the quote says one thing, to you, and something completely different to someone else. Neither is "right", neither is "wrong".

:)

And you propose it said what? "The most ambitious sci-fi show since the Twilight Zone, although others have been just as ambitious?"

:Nsalute:

[Fragmentary]

You couldn't have read it, because as I said several times, it was in the DVD commentary.
I must have missed it. I’ll review the commentary.

The credit belongs to that fanbase, and for those three men to suggest it's only been smart marketing without mentioning that fanbase is something I can only call another slap at the group they have little regard for.
The fanbase has generated an intense interest within the existing fan community, and of course has perpetuated the fanbase through that. But it’s hardly large enough to support any kind of major production, whether it be the re-imagining or a continuation. I’m just suggesting that the wider audience that exists for this product does so because of the DVD releases and the reruns and the auxiliary products. Fan have worked hard sure, but they aren’t the reason that reviews of the new show can simply describe an old Cylon and readers instantly remember the existence of the original Galactica. For that to happen, those images must be refreshed in the mainstream.

That isn't the point. The point had to do with the smug cackling from Moore and company as they just about took delight in noting that not cooperating with the fans brought them more publicity than they could have imagined.
You’ve got admit, it is ironic.

So in other words, Ron Moore's conduct has been a flawless model of perfect respect demonstrated toward TOS and its fanbase?
I certainly wouldn’t say that, how could I possibly defend that position? I’m just saying that many of the things that you perceive as insulting, and others feel should be apologized for, are open to interpretation. I don’t see the implied insult in many of these things. And I have seen Moore be complimentary of fans and Hatch. In interviews and at the convention appearance I’ve seen of his, he has been very down to earth and open to hearing people’s feelings. I don’t think he’s dancing or graves or delighting in other’s misery. I think he’s doing the best that he can, and being a class act when he speaks publicly.

First off, I'd be careful about characterizing those who wanted a continuation for the last 25 years as just a group of "internet fans"
Fair enough. My apologizes. Didn’t mean for that to be derogatory.

…and second, I would also note that Ron Moore's own words on that DVD commentary render null and void the argument you're making that Sci-Fi hired him to do a reinvention. He has said that was all his doing. So I think it's time we put this idea of Moore just hired to fulfill a specific mandate from Sci-Fi to rest.
I’m aware that it was his decision to take the show in that direction. For additional clarity, at the convention he explained that he only watched the original pilot when he took the weekend to decide if he was willing to come on aboard the Galactica project. He did then watch the entire series before the writing process.

I already explained the analogous situation to that in professional sports where Moore's behavior is a perfect parallel. And to this date, no one blames the fans of Cleveland for having righteous indignation toward Art Modell (not even the Balitmore fans) or has suggested there's illegitimacy toward holding such views.
This analogy doesn’t mean anything to me. I just don’t know enough about this.

[Mustex]

And now, as I promised before, my response to Nextceo.



I put myself in the category of those who think one can criticize something that suffers from no flaws in execution, like acting, writing etc. and still find cause to be critical of it on general, philosopical grounds. I feel that fairness requires I not comment on what happens in individual episodes that I have not seen or in what directions TNS is going in. Because ultimately, for one like myself, it isn't relevant what happens in TNS' storyline because the damage has already been done in terms of what does TNS represent and stand for in terms of a philosophical-religious-political perspective on things. That's one thing that I don't think ever can fundamentally change no matter what happens in TNS so that's why ultimately I prefer to confine myself solely to the issue of why TNS is objectionable to me on those grounds and why those particular grounds cut very deep for one like myself who thinks that what's happening is that in reinventing Galactica by changing the philosophical-religious perspective, I'm once again seeing a case of a particular Hollywood attitude rubbing itself in my face again in ways that it's been done in the past on things other than Galactica. For me, this is not simply about what's been done to an entity called "Battlestar Galactica" it's my frustration over seeing a Hollywood attitude of shoving a particular agenda at me once again, and this time it's being done on something I used to always see as standing proud and alone against the prevailing conventional wisdom of secular Hollywood attitudes typical in most science-fiction.

Maybe if I felt there was a tradition of greater political and philosophic diversity in science fiction television, in which Galactica was not the only series that embodied a philosophy that a conservative Christian like myself could enjoy, it'd be easier to come to terms with this. I'd have a few more fallback options available in this genre, but unfortunately I don't and never have. Galactica's been all alone in that regard, and now that's been taken. Dawg I think is absolutely right when he says that TNS caters more to the tastes of those who came away enjoying "Fahrenheit 9/11" whereas TOS caters more to the tastes of those who voted the other way (I recognize that there can be a danger in oversimplifying this, because certainly there are fans on both sides of the aisle politically for both, but I think it can be generally conceded that TOS leans more conservative in a lot of things than do other shows of the day, and certainly more so than TNS).



I'd like to see it stop too, but I think a lot of that could be guaranteed with a simple change in attitude and approach from the people responsible for TNS. The DVD commentary was something I didn't want to listen to, but I felt I had to because I really wanted to look for something I could come away with thinking was an olive branch to TOS fanbase and give me cause to overcome the anger I've felt these many months. And sadly, I heard nothing to come away with and only ended up with the feeling that Ron Moore is determined to marginalize the legacy of TOS into some badly made end-product of a bygone era.




I still feel though, nextceo, that that raises a serious ethical question, and I say that not as a mere fan, but as a writer myself who over the last decade has written some two dozen TOS fanfics as well as fanfics for other shows, and whose first obligation is always to make sure that I am violating nothing established by the creators vision of this. I've written fanfics for Columbo, and no matter how much I'd like to show the Lieutenant's wife and reveal his first name and put him in an unconventional story in a good story, I would never do that because it would violate the integrity of the show and the character. Likewise, when I write TOS fanfic I make sure that what I do follows and expands on what was given to us in the series and does not alter things to suit my own narrow perspective. If I want to "create" something I can identify with in all facets, then I at least would consider it incumbent on myself to go completely original and not rely on someone else's work as a crutch to alter the vision of what the original represented.

What you say about the character growth factor compared to TOS is one of those things I could live with and accept. I could even live with the gender switches. If you wanted to boil it down to just a few things Moore could have done that would have enabled me to accept things and move on, it would be these, and I would be interested to know if you think it wouldn't have been too much to have done these things:

1-Keep the conflict between Human and Cylon the way it was in TOS and do not fall back on an old cliche of "man's creation turning on him." All that does is bring in the "we brought this on ourselves" kind of thinking that is simply not true to TOS, because TOS offered instead a struggle of moral clarity where the enemy was ultimately revealed to be the Devil's own creation (in WOTG).

2-Keep Adama a man of faith, and just have him say truthfully "I don't know where Earth is, but I have faith we will find it." Olmos stated that the lying to give hope carries with it the very ugly subtext that the things we look to to have faith in, such as religion, are ultimately the false creations of devious men to fool the gullible. That too is not true to the spirit of TOS.

3-Keep Colonial religion monotheistic.

Had these three things been done, the problem would be 80% solved in terms of major objections from my standpoint because only then would I feel that the core was intact and everything else I didn't like would all be in the details. Do you think that if we had these three things and no other changes to what presently exists, would the alterations from what presently exists be so great?

I'll really be interested in what you have to say on this as well as what other TNS fans like Rigel might think about that. If the answer would be yes, then it would ultimately reveal how Moore only needed to compromise just a little bit.

In the meantime, thanks for writing your feelings on this subject.

BTW, Eric, you really should watch TNS before leaping to conclusions that Moore is a democrat, and hostile towards religion. There have been hints that Laura may become a prophet figure later in the show, plus many scenes of people praying.

Also, the android torture scene, while a commentary on Iraq, didn't say "Bush was wrong" so much as "War is a bad thing, but sometimes a neccessary evil." If Starbuck didn't torture the Cylon they risked the nuke he claimed to have planted going off.

However, most TOS fans seemed shocked merely by the fact that a being who allied itself against the main characters could even feel pain. Oh yes, I'm sure that when we fought the Nazis in WWII to protect the free world they felt no pain. Doubtlessly none of them had wives that would be husbandless, or children who would be fatherless. They couldn't possibly have had any good qualities, or be people who we could relate to in any way, shape, or form. After all, they were Nazis, not human beings who we were sadly forced to kill for the sake of freedom. War is never a game of neccessary evils.

:Nsalute:

[Eric Paddon]

THe analogy has to do with the fact that in 1995, the Cleveland Browns football team, one of the most popular in the NFL, and which drew attendance of 80,000 a week through many years of frustration were one day betrayed by their owner, Art Modell, who in the dead of night moved the team to Baltimore claiming financial hardship, when what really happened was a case of greed where he wanted a sweetheart deal on a new stadium and he was able to get one quick from Baltimore. From a legal standpoint, the team was his property and he could do what he wanted to do with it with an eye toward maximizing his profit potential. From an ethical standpoint, he was wrong to not consider the interests of the loyal fans who'd supported the team for decades and saw it as something that belonged to them. Modell received death threats and can never set foot in Cleveland again, but he is still a man not many people think highly of even though the team he moved to Baltimore won a Super Bowl a few years later.

To me, this scenario has very eerie parallels with what we've seen happen with Galactica. We, the TOS fans who are still upset are the Browns fans who are upset with the man who did not consider the feelings of the fanbase that loyally supported the property through many years of tough times. The TNS fans are like the Baltimore Ravens fans who got something new to enjoy for themselves and who were rewarded in short order with a Super Bowl triumph. The difficulty we face today in terms of bridging TOS and TNS fanbases is the same that would exist for a forum comprised of Cleveland and Baltimore football fans.

Hope that explains that.

[Eric Paddon]

Mustex, your "sarcasm" about World War II is not particularly constructive for purposes of this discussion.

[BST]

Mustex,

Interpretation of a quote is like beauty - it's in the eye of the beholder.

In other words, the quote says one thing, to you, and something completely different to someone else. Neither is "right", neither is "wrong".

:)



And you propose it said what? "The most ambitious sci-fi show since the Twilight Zone, although others have been just as ambitious?"

:Nsalute:


Exactly what I had indicated earlier - it says something different to me than it does to you. I've watched the new show and I'm still waiting to see what was meant by the term, "ambitious".

[Mustex]

Mustex, your "sarcasm" about World War II is not particularly constructive for purposes of this discussion.

How is it not constructive? War is a bad thing, that's all "Flesh and Bone" says. Do you ever think war is a good thing? If we could have won WWII without killing Nazis, would you have still chosen to have them slaughtered? Likewise Starbuck didn't want to torture the Cylon, she even prayed for him, but she had to.

[Mustex]

Exactly what I had indicated earlier - it says something different to me than it does to you. I've watched the new show and I'm still waiting to see what was meant by the term, "ambitious".

And you've failed to provide an example of another way it could be interpretted.

:Nsalute:

[BST]

And you've failed to provide an example of another way it could be interpretted.

:Nsalute:


It does appear that you want an answer so, here it is.

The comment portrays to me the height of arrogance - there have been some very good science fiction shows produced since Twilight Zone. This new show may appeal to you but, to me it's just not that good and most assuredly does not deserve such a lofty status assigned to it.

That is what the comment says to me.

[nextceo]

I'm finishing up on this thread... It is just degenerating to much. Honestly I don't feel the need anymore to defend why RDM made the decisions he did. I'm a Christian (and conservative republican) myself and enjoy the show. I feel it is a good piece of writing and an excellent show and don't feel it has to totally fit within my "moral compass" to enjoy it. I recognize it for what it is, a science fiction show. I do not see any bias one way or the other from Moore politically in the show. If I wanted to see it I certainly could (as in anything you can see what you want), but I feel it is pretty neutral and trying to show two different sides and it can only do so much in 13 episodes. It is no way a Fahrenheit 911 and I see no where were the show says that the colonials "had it coming." While based on situations in current world it is also a work of fiction. I do not feel it is "unethical" that RDM reimagined the show. The show was to be BSG and a reimagining. To use pieces of the old show is a necessity, not a crutch, otherwise it wouldn't be BSG. However it was changed in a way to have a different flavor. I've worked on new promotional videos for companies where they are redoing one from 10 years ago. What do I do, I keep what I feel works and what worked for the company, but change it to fit the times and what I as an artist see as my vision for that original work. Its the same universe I'm working in but I change it significantly to fit current viewers. Its not a crutch or unethical to do this. Why would I change the things that work? But I improve on the things I feel need to be changed. Then sometimes I totally redo what was done before, it depends on the situation. There are also nods the original series, this isn't a crutch but an homage to what came before. RDM encourages fans to write fanfic and change the TNS story as much as they want.

My simple purpose for writing is to help those that dislike TNS understand that many feel the same feelings towards TNS that they do about TOS. So when they say something spiteful about the show it hurts other people as well and people feel the need to stand up and defend the show. We should enjoy the shows for what they are. And if you don't, that is fine too. Just don't run down someone elses passion because you don't like it. Constructively criticize as most people do, but don't be hateful and lets just agree to disagree. Thats for me on this thread. Thanks!

[Eric Paddon]

Nextceo, I am very disappointed. I gave what I thought was a fair and reasonable response to your post in what I hoped would be an ongoing dialogue on these issues that divide us, and unfortunately you chose to in effect dismiss it in the kind of language that frankly is of the type that prompted my initial post to begin with when I expressed my concerns about how people who feel as I do are becoming stigmitized for the fact that they feel a need to express these views given the situation that exists today.

[nextceo]

Eric, how did I dismiss it? The other things that are going on in this post are what I'm talking about in the degeneration. I responded to a number of the points that you brought up in your response to my post. I appreciate your response and see nothing negative in it. My simple feeling is I don't really know where this is going and feel I'm banging my head against the wall, for the simple fact that I no longer have a desire to change peoples feelings about TNS. If you like it you do, if you don't you don't. I don't see where I used any negative language whatsoever, so I don't understand your saying I'm dismissing your comments (can you show me what I said to get this comment?????). I don't know what else to say. To have a dialog is fine, but other comments in the thread are not furthering the dialog, and I felt it was time for me to say my final say on the matter for now. No disrespect to anyone, I just don't feel the need to defend RDM or anyone else on the new show because I don't see where, no matter what I say, how it is going to make a difference. I have been saying the same things for six months now and it is what it is. Lets see how things play out over the next six months thats all. Again, Eric, I appreciate your passion and respect your feelings and postings, but personally I don't feel the need to put myself through the frustration of trying to explain someone elses decisions (RDM's). I'm not him, I didn't make the decisions, and I don't feel qualified to speak on his behalf. I just love the show. I just don't know what else there is to say...

[Eric Paddon]

First off, you didn't address yourself to me directly which surprised me, because I was making an effort to do so with your post in what I thought was supposed to be an ongoing dialogue. You then addressed my post's points in an offhand manner that I found to be dismissive because it seemed to me that you were more concerned with making a bigger point about how pointless the discussion was becoming and that nothing further could be added to it. And finally, I asked you some questions at the end of the post because I was genuinely interested in your answer to them, and you didn't address any of them or even acknowledge their existence.

[Darth Marley]

There is no changing ideas about a show. you either like it, or not. It either "grows on you" or it doesn't.

There is nothing to say in terms of exchange of ideas regarding the fear that when BSG is mentioned, the RDM product is what will spring to mind in the public conscience.

It is clear that many people have "issues" with the new show. What is there to say that EJO has not said already? Don't put yourself through the pain.

But, the public perception of what Galactica is, that is a different matter. It is something beyond control. And complaining about what you cannot control will likely lead to frustration.

[Titon]

To me personally, in the times I did talk to him, he came across as egotistical.

How right you are.

Do you honestly think that Richard Hatch, Ron Moore and the cast of Galactica are not egotistical? You have to be in order to work in Hollywood. It's a prerequisit. I dealt with it for 6 months and you couldn't give me this industry as a full time job. You become an asshole right before your very own eyes. No one folks in hollywood is out to be your friend. They give you what you want to hear, not what you want to see. When it's all said in done it's based on how much i can either advance my career or how much i can put in my pocket.

Don't kid yourselves at all. There is no such thing as a non egotistical actor or producer, they don't exist.

Remember that before defending anyone. Especially an actor.

:rolleyes:

[jewels]

THe analogy has to do with the fact that in 1995, the Cleveland Browns football team, one of the most popular in the NFL, and which drew attendance of 80,000 a week through many years of frustration were one day betrayed by their owner, Art Modell, who in the dead of night moved the team to Baltimore claiming financial hardship, when what really happened was a case of greed where he wanted a sweetheart deal on a new stadium and he was able to get one quick from Baltimore. From a legal standpoint, the team was his property and he could do what he wanted to do with it with an eye toward maximizing his profit potential. From an ethical standpoint, he was wrong to not consider the interests of the loyal fans who'd supported the team for decades and saw it as something that belonged to them. Modell received death threats and can never set foot in Cleveland again, but he is still a man not many people think highly of even though the team he moved to Baltimore won a Super Bowl a few years later.

To me, this scenario has very eerie parallels with what we've seen happen with Galactica. We, the TOS fans who are still upset are the Browns fans who are upset with the man who did not consider the feelings of the fanbase that loyally supported the property through many years of tough times. The TNS fans are like the Baltimore Ravens fans who got something new to enjoy for themselves and who were rewarded in short order with a Super Bowl triumph. The difficulty we face today in terms of bridging TOS and TNS fanbases is the same that would exist for a forum comprised of Cleveland and Baltimore football fans.

Hope that explains that.
Eric, I live (moved here recently) in the city that "stole" the Colts from Baltimore. My entire STATE is currently sweating a stadium deal to keep them, what more than a decade?? past their move here. I think you have a very good analogy in that comparison.

[jewels]

First off, you didn't address yourself to me directly which surprised me, because I was making an effort to do so with your post in what I thought was supposed to be an ongoing dialogue. You then addressed my post's points in an offhand manner that I found to be dismissive because it seemed to me that you were more concerned with making a bigger point about how pointless the discussion was becoming and that nothing further could be added to it. And finally, I asked you some questions at the end of the post because I was genuinely interested in your answer to them, and you didn't address any of them or even acknowledge their existence.Eric, sometimes it is as simple as folks get tuckered out. It's frustrating when it happens and we were having fun chatting. But it's OK when folks are at the end of their words on a topic.

Neither of you were going to agree, and it can feel like you are trapped in a circle without an exit if you keep at that kind of conversation.

I appreciate that you posted this thread at all. I think it does give people more insight.

:heart:

Jewels

[Rigel_No_6]

Wow, gentlemen, this is quite the contest of wills (or it's medieval equivalent-wink, wink). I leave for a few hours and things are totally out of control but there's been some good posts, too. ;)

I did want to say that like NextCeo and Frag, I'm a fan of both TOS and TNS, and almost any other form of Science Fiction/Fantasy (I draw the line at Day of the Dead stuff though, there was another thread on that a while back). And I'm very like minded of the postings that they both have been sharing on this thread - nice job guys.

One post of Eric's in particular was great, too, where he really explained the philosophy behind a number of the issues, and I wanted fulfill his curiousity on my thoughts about the three items you indicated would have avoided most of the issues that started the firestorms over TNS. Just a warning, I'm afraid I'm probably going to disappoint you, and sorry this is sooo long. I've relisted your list here for ease of reading in a different color:

1-Keep the conflict between Human and Cylon the way it was in TOS and do not fall back on an old cliche of "man's creation turning on him." All that does is bring in the "we brought this on ourselves" kind of thinking that is simply not true to TOS, because TOS offered instead a struggle of moral clarity where the enemy was ultimately revealed to be the Devil's own creation (in WOTG).

It's interesting that you mention "man's creation turning on himself", even though it is a cliche literary theme, when that's essentially what happened with God's creations, both Satan (before he fell) and Man (yup, we fell, too). God created Satan (or Lucifer before he disobeyed) and Man for different reasons but both have free will to choose to obey or disobey God. It's also interesting that our natures both made the same choice, if for different reasons. So, in my mind, these themes are not so far apart so the change from one to the other doesn't bother me much. There must be some source of conflict, or we're in Heaven (or Purgatory, Nirvana, etc. as the case may be) and at least it's an enduring sci-fi one at that, even if not part of the TOS.

Also, the bit about the Cylons being the Devil's creation wasn't in the televised version of the series so I wasn't aware of it until you mentioned it. Evidently, that's only on the DVD version, which gives me incentive to buy it when the opportunity and cash present themselves at just the right time. I thought I saw that episode a couple months back on sci-fi but don't remember it having anything different from when I saw it on TV many years ago. Very interesting and certainly explains a lot about the names the head cylons had ;)

2-Keep Adama a man of faith, and just have him say truthfully "I don't know where Earth is, but I have faith we will find it." Olmos stated that the lying to give hope carries with it the very ugly subtext that the things we look to to have faith in, such as religion, are ultimately the false creations of devious men to fool the gullible. That too is not true to the spirit of TOS.

Just to clarify, was the second sentence a verbatim quote from EJO or was that what his character says after he delivers the false speech (sounds like I need to watch 33 again)? This is a view held by many folks today (inlcuding my brother), and often the church or christian individuals do little to help prove otherwise in this arena. Religion, of any kind, always runs into problems simply because people are involved and they always tend to change from their original purposes into something that's less than those lofty goals, for example, existing to maintain a building instead of caring for the local community.

I think it's okay to change this piece, too, because I feel that better reflects the reality we've always lived with but were unwilling to deal with, instead using a black and white version of it for easy reference. We can barely comprehend the world that our parents grew up in as our world has been so vastly changed in that 40-60 years. And even though I enjoy watching programming from older eras, I greatly appreciate the fact that we live in a more enlightened world that better reflects our reality, even if it often reflects how stupid humanity can be. Life is complicated shades of gray, evil is hard to recognize for what it is, and good hides in the places we least expect it to be.

3-Keep Colonial religion monotheistic.

You know this always confused me about TOS: they were monotheistic but had trappings from the Egyptian, Greek, and Roman cultures, which were all polythiestic. I could never reconcile those things together. Monothiesm is typically the exception and not the rule when it comes to religion so the change to being polythiestic isn't a problem for me either. Of all the world's religions, only Judaism, Islam, and Christianity believe in this concept, and actually all three worship the same God. Also, I read today that TOS is heavily based on the Latter Day Saints (Mormon) religion, and used a number of terms and references to it. I'd never heard this before, is this the case? (No need to answer here unless you like to, I really should start a different thread on that as that's really a separate topic.)

Do you think that if we had these three things and no other changes to what presently exists, would the alterations from what presently exists be so great?

To me, it just wouldn't be as good a new series if we reset these things to what they were in TOS. It wouldn't have the edginess, hard planes and angles, and dark spots that make it so interesting to me. The only issue I may flip on would be the religion aspect but I'll have to see where they take it. Zealots exist in every religion, even Buddhism (monks setting themselves on fire), so although that theme makes me uncomfortable at times, it's a truism that I accept and try not to ignore as it can have consequences.

It's possible that some of these things you mention may come full circle in the series and I'm hopeful they become better reconciled (like Frag mentioned about the fans) but I certainly understand and respect your views on these issues, Eric, and look forward to other posts on this discussion.

Whew,
Rigel

[Eric Paddon]

Rigel, I'll get back to the rest of your post tomorrow but let me just give you a quick clarification on one point, that of the Cylons as the Devil's creation in TOS. This point is brought out very ingeniously in "War Of The Gods" when Baltar and Count Iblis have their conversation in the prison cell and Baltar says he recognizes that Iblis's voice is the same as that of the Cylon Imperious Leader.

IBLIS: Cylon's a machine.
BALTAR: Yes, now they are. But once they were a race of beings destroyed by their own technology.
IBLIS: And when did all this happen?
BALTAR: A thousand yahrens ago, before the onset of the war with the humans.
IBLIS: Do you realize what you say, Baltar? In order for my voice to be that of the Imperious Leader, it would have to have been transcribed and placed into the essence of the machine leader, a thousand yahrens ago. I would have to be a thousand yahrens old!

Baltar is then caught off guard a bit by this, but the implication is that Iblis has just spoken the truth. He was the one responsible for the creation of the robot Cylons that destroyed the original reptilian Cylons, and this accounts for why his voice is that used for the Cylon Imperious Leaders. An ingenious case of using Patrick MacNee who had already been providing the voice of the Leader in this part led to the most important subtext of the entire series.

[Rigel_No_6]

Thanks, Eric. I recalled this scene in WOTG but I was never sure if that really meant he was the Devil himself and, indeed, literally engineered the Cylons. When I was researching that episode, the forums (here and elsewhere) made mention that int he DVD versions, they show the cloven feet Apollo and Stabuck find at the crash site where Iblis was rescued from. That tidbit would have sealed the deal for me making this connection. Without it, I just wasn't really sure what the end implication was.

Thanks for the info and clarifying that for me,
Rigel
:Nsalute:

[jewels]

Rigel,
quick answer on LDS and TOS:
Glen Larson was raised Mormon and adapted some Mormon beliefs into Colonial theology (marriage ceremony being called "sealing" and being an eternal relationship commitment are the most obvious). Mormonism was rather clever as it has lots of standard "familiar" Christianity with some "other worldly" sort of twists--i.e. it's familar, but it's different. Which suited the purpose perfectly for "those who believe" back in 1978. Some have said (not Larson, commentators) that they saw not only Moses Exodus and Noah's Ark in BG, but the parallel also to the exodus of sorts the Mormons made in their historical journey/migration to Utah.

:salute:
Others around are better suited to spell out the specifics. If you post a thread, try asking in the TOS BG forum. ;)

Jewels

[kingfish]

Fox: Simpsons, Family Man, South Park (?)

Cartoon network. Actually soon to be calling themselves "Adult Swim" in the evening. (sorry if someone else answered already. Been busy.

Disney channel occaisionally runs it's animated features at night.



We had live actors in the palm of our hand, Dirk and Herb as the original characters in the DeSanto production. This showed that there were possibilities for BG coming back as a continuation. I guess we are to the point that we will take anything thrown our way.



PS: I DON'T want an anime/cartoon continuation.

[kingfish]

Rigel,
quick answer on LDS and TOS:
Glen Larson was raised Mormon and adapted some Mormon beliefs into Colonial theology (marriage ceremony being called "sealing" and being an eternal relationship commitment are the most obvious). Mormonism was rather clever as it has lots of standard "familiar" Christianity with some "other worldly" sort of twists--i.e. it's familar, but it's different. Which suited the purpose perfectly for "those who believe" back in 1978. Some have said (not Larson, commentators) that they saw not only Moses Exodus and Noah's Ark in BG, but the parallel also to the exodus of sorts the Mormons made in their historical journey/migration to Utah.

:salute:
Others around are better suited to spell out the specifics. If you post a thread, try asking in the TOS BG forum. ;)

Jewels



If Glen Larson cared about his creation we wouldn't be in this mess. For all we know he might be making big dollars off of Nu Galactica. he is listed as consulting producer after all.

[Antelope]

Re-read my post. Did I say Richard, or did I say me? ;)



...ummm Yes, he plays it both ways. He is egotistical and is a man earning a living in Hollywood.

Mind you, when you want to hear what you want to hear, the go thing can go either way.

I am sure there are nuBG fans that have talked to him and will say he's not egotistical or arrogant, while there are other people that have talked to him that come away with an entirely different view.

To me personally, in the times I did talk to him, he came across as egotistical.

Not all my questions were directly related to your previous post. I was looking for incite especially since prior to your reply I have never read anywhere that anyone received death threats from mini or TNS fans, although I am well aware of the animosity generated by individuals during the clone war to include law suit threats.

I apologize if my questions were vague and will try to be clearer. Please answer if you feel inclined.

1. Were the death threats you received from TOS, TNS or both types of fans?

2. Did Richard Hatch receive death threats? If so were they from TOS, TNS, or both types of fans?

3. Were you still working on that web site after Richard Hatch made his positive comments about Ron Moore and TNS?

4. I assume Ron Moore is an egotist. My main question may be obscurred by that word. Do you believe Ron Moore's goal was to destroy hope for a TOS Continuation or to make a financially successful science fiction television program?

5. Do you believe Ron Moore wants to intentionally inflict pain on other human beings, in particular fans of TOS (based on Eric's dancing on grave comment earlier in thread)?


After all this time in the BSG web world this thread has been enlightening, however the enlightenment was unexpected. I understand the pain many people feel about the perceived loss of hope in regards to a TOS Continuation. I also understand the hatred some carry to TNS as a travesty compared to TOS. I also know there are elements that have personified this feeling onto Ron Moore and Bonnie Hammer. I have been surprised however by the depth of this personification and the willingness to believe in evil intent as opposed to money motivation behind them at this point by people I did not expect to see such comments from.

I guess I think Ron Moore, Bonnie Hammer, or any of the other maligned figures of TNS could be greedy, uncaring, egotistic, and foolish. I don't see how people take the leap from that to making them into evil individuals whose goal is to inflict pain. Moore and Hammer had a goal of making a television show that gathered high ratings and was a financial success. I'm sure they knew some people would not like what they did. Some people having hurt feelings was an ancillary to what they did however, not the purpose or intent.

I Ask this simple question:

If Ron Moore tomorrow could push a green button and the results would be that TNS would fail and TOS in any form would never be seen on television again or he could press a red button and TNS would be a great success but it would also result in a successful TOS based series which button would Moore press?

[Gemini1999]

The answer is obvious except to the deluded.


Antelope -

Comments such as the one above are gonna get this thread shut down. This is not a personal thing and such comments directed at another poster, or any portion of the fanbase are not permitted, nor tolerated.

As for another poster "dodging" your questions....this isn't the McCarthy hearings or the Spanish Inquisition. If someone doesn't want to bother, that's their choice. In my book, harrassing them to get your answers isn't the best way to do it.

For everyone here participating in this discussion, please keep your comments to those about the show, not the individuals participating in the discussion. If you don't agree with someone's point of view, that's fine, if you have a problem with the individual, take it off the forum or drop it entirely.

Sincerely,
Gemini1999
Colonial Fleets Moderator

[Antelope]

Antelope -
Comments such as the one above are gonna get this thread shut down. This is not a personal thing and such comments directed at another poster, or any portion of the fanbase are not permitted, nor tolerated.


I apologize if any of my comments are misconstrued as being personal in nature.

I edited my reply to try to make it more in the spirit I intended.

Note: This is the Battlestar Beef section. I expect this section to be hard. People don't come here to say good things. I guess my beef is that people scapegoat other individuals for their own sense of hurt. Ron Moore is a scapegoat. Much of what is being said here about Ron Moore is personal in nature and judges him as a man not by his work. If Ron Moore was a member here much of what is said by members about him would be a bannable offense.

If it turned out that Ron Moore used a handle on this site and was a regular poster would it be OK for people to personally attack him and disparage his reputation simply because they used his real name and not his handle?

We still have a double standard on this subject.

[Eric Paddon]

"I guess I think Ron Moore, Bonnie Hammer, or any of the other maligned figures of TNS could be greedy, uncaring, egotistic, and foolish. I don't see how people take the leap from that to making them into evil individuals whose goal is to inflict pain."

Antelope, the problem is that the epithets that you indicate are perfectly legit when characterizing those people is exactly the kind of language I and others have used to characterize them, and you are taking it to another level by mischaracterizing those remarks as being indicative of the latter type of epithets. When I describe Moore as dancing on the grave of TOS fandom in his DVD commentary that to me is describing the behavior of someone I regard as "uncaring and foolish" and nowhere is there any description on my part of calling for his death or that he is as evil a person as Bin Laden, for instance.

This gets back again to my point in the initial post, which I feel you have tried to diminish for the sake of inflating what you see as attacks on Moore in it, that TOS fans who do express such feelings about the current state of events are being unjustly stigmitized for spreading "hate".

[luicfer7thfleet]

Rigel, I'll get back to the rest of your post tomorrow but let me just give you a quick clarification on one point, that of the Cylons as the Devil's creation in TOS. This point is brought out very ingeniously in "War Of The Gods" when Baltar and Count Iblis have their conversation in the prison cell and Baltar says he recognizes that Iblis's voice is the same as that of the Cylon Imperious Leader.

IBLIS: Cylon's a machine.
BALTAR: Yes, now they are. But once they were a race of beings destroyed by their own technology.
IBLIS: And when did all this happen?
BALTAR: A thousand yahrens ago, before the onset of the war with the humans.
IBLIS: Do you realize what you say, Baltar? In order for my voice to be that of the Imperious Leader, it would have to have been transcribed and placed into the essence of the machine leader, a thousand yahrens ago. I would have to be a thousand yahrens old!

Baltar is then caught off guard a bit by this, but the implication is that Iblis has just spoken the truth. He was the one responsible for the creation of the robot Cylons that destroyed the original reptilian Cylons, and this accounts for why his voice is that used for the Cylon Imperious Leaders. An ingenious case of using Patrick MacNee who had already been providing the voice of the Leader in this part led to the most important subtext of the entire series. he than said that all was not lost and too stand tall i think this means he was evil and would have givin the fleet to the cylons if adamma had gone along. remember nothing can hurt you sheba as long as i;m in side you!. [haha]
:salute:

[Darrell Lawrence]

Antelope, this is the Beefs forum, *but* personal attacks are still a no-no. That is about it as far as moderation in this particular forum.

I'll get back to reply to your questions in a bit.

[Antelope]

Thanks for the post and insight from everyone on this thread. Even when I disagree I value the time everyone takes to put down their thoughts. I think this subject is far more raw than I thought it would be at this point in time. In the future I think I will avoid posting in this forum and stick to being a happy fan on either of the two forums for the series I enjoy so much, both TOS and TNS.

Warrior, if you do get a chance I will read your reply.

Thankyou.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Not all my questions were directly related to your previous post. I was looking for incite especially since prior to your reply I have never read anywhere that anyone received death threats from mini or TNS fans, although I am well aware of the animosity generated by individuals during the clone war to include law suit threats.

I apologize if my questions were vague and will try to be clearer. Please answer if you feel inclined.
Well... it's RARE that anyone would bring attention to themselves in saying they received death threats.

I've never mentioned it before because I laughed it off.

1. Were the death threats you received from TOS, TNS or both types of fans?

Both. Like I said though, I laughed them off. Pretty hilarious stuff actually. I recognized the e-mail addies as well. They were told where they could stick their heads ;)
2. Did Richard Hatch receive death threats? If so were they from TOS, TNS, or both types of fans?

He didn't receive them while I was webmaster through the website. As for him getting them by other means, no idea.
3. Were you still working on that web site after Richard Hatch made his positive comments about Ron Moore and TNS?
Yes, I was.
4. I assume Ron Moore is an egotist. My main question may be obscurred by that word. Do you believe Ron Moore's goal was to destroy hope for a TOS Continuation or to make a financially successful science fiction television program?
Both. In his very early comments, he made it no secret that he'd neverwatched the series, and only after talks of getting the gig did he watch the pilot premier. He said then he liked the armehgheddon aspects, but didn't care for the mythologies, etc. He stated he was going to do away with that, etc etc and anyone that disagreed with him, then the "popcorn" was in another isle, etc. Many of his disparging comments towards both the series *and* the fans came back then.

THis was BEFORE Galacticon, and BEFORE he approached Richard to be in the new series.
5. Do you believe Ron Moore wants to intentionally inflict pain on other human beings, in particular fans of TOS (based on Eric's dancing on grave comment earlier in thread)?

Ron says things in a very "snide comment", sarcastic sort of way. Some can take it as him trying to be funny, others don't.

It's through that type of "humor" that a persons real take on something generally comes through.

So to answer that question, in all honesty, I do believe Moore wants osBG to just go away, and he doesn't care what the osBG fans think. Within that not caring what certain fans think, that means he could care less about them and doesn't care what toes he steps on. And by not caring who's toes get stepped on, then yes, he intentionally inflicts emotional pain on those people.
After all this time in the BSG web world this thread has been enlightening, however the enlightenment was unexpected. I understand the pain many people feel about the perceived loss of hope in regards to a TOS Continuation. I also understand the hatred some carry to TNS as a travesty compared to TOS. I also know there are elements that have personified this feeling onto Ron Moore and Bonnie Hammer. I have been surprised however by the depth of this personification and the willingness to believe in evil intent as opposed to money motivation behind them at this point by people I did not expect to see such comments from.

Oh ho... Regarding Bonnie, that story goes WAY back to the time of Richard first proposing BG come back as a continuation. Back then, she flat out said she didn't care what fans thought. She was going to do things her way. Luckily, someone at top told herto cool her jets at the time.
I guess I think Ron Moore, Bonnie Hammer, or any of the other maligned figures of TNS could be greedy, uncaring, egotistic, and foolish. I don't see how people take the leap from that to making them into evil individuals whose goal is to inflict pain. Moore and Hammer had a goal of making a television show that gathered high ratings and was a financial success. I'm sure they knew some people would not like what they did. Some people having hurt feelings was an ancillary to what they did however, not the purpose or intent.


I think I answered that above regarding their "inflicting" pain. To make it clear, it's emotional pain, not physical :)
I Ask this simple question:

If Ron Moore tomorrow could push a green button and the results would be that TNS would fail and TOS in any form would never be seen on television again or he could press a red button and TNS would be a great success but it would also result in a successful TOS based series which button would Moore press?
Neither. He doesn't have that power, even though he likes to think he does ;)

[Eric Paddon]

First Rigel, thanks for answering the three questions I posed.

I think where I disagree with you is that I don't see the "man's creation turning on himself" tying in to the idea of the whole original sin concept as you see it. To me, TOS premise of mankind being forced to fight a war that can only be defined in terms of an absolute Good-Evil struggle, and failing in that conflict because of his flawed nature better addresses that issue. TOS does not present mankind as perfect. Adama's sad aside, "No wonder our world fell apart" when he thinks of Sire Uri and his self-indulgence hits that point rather effectively, while not detracting from the unique idea that this is a war that can not be defined in the conventional "shades of gray" approach that typifies all other sci-fi. The real danger of a "shades of gray" thinking to me is that it too often puts one on the slippery slope toward moral equivalence or moral relativism.

My comment on what Olmos said is what he said in an interview, not in the episode. It represents a way of thinking that religion and ideals to believe in are things concocted by cynical men and not the product of what one regards as genuine faith in what happens to be something seen as real. And that to me, is a philosophy that has no place in an end product called "Battlestar Galactica" anymore than overt Christian preaching belongs in a reinvention of the novels of H.G. Wells or even in Star Trek for that matter. This is one of those issues where I feel there has to be some deference shown to what the original stood for on this point.

"I think it's okay to change this piece, too, because I feel that better reflects the reality we've always lived with but were unwilling to deal with, instead using a black and white version of it for easy reference."

I come back to the fact that I represent that part of the audience who believes there is in fact a black and white dimension to the universe around us with absolute good and absolute evil, and that mankind has not, contrary to the philosophy of Star Trek, outgrown his need for God or Divine assistance. Galactica was a show that in effect stood up to the conventional wisdom, whereas TNS goes back to the conventional wisdom on this point.

"You know this always confused me about TOS: they were monotheistic but had trappings from the Egyptian, Greek, and Roman cultures, which were all polythiestic. I could never reconcile those things together."

It isn't too difficult actually. Egypt gave us a monotheistic king in Ahneaton, and Greek and Roman philosophy in fact was skeptical of the whole polytheistic notion and tended to reason that if there was a God, the monotheistic structure better explained the universe, which is why Chrisitanity was able to find a good deal of appeal amongst those of Greek and Roman education even before the Roman Empire became Christian. I would also disagree with the idea that monotheism is the exception when it comes to religion because all of the world's major religions are in fact monotheistic. Besides, if you suggest that TOS shouldn't have been monotheistic because of the presence of ancient culture trappings, then it seems to me by default then that because the universe of TNS so consciously attempts to mimic present-day America, that should automatically be monotheistic. At any rate, when there is a change from something that the Judeo-Christian audience of 1978 could more readily recognize and reconcile in basic principle to his or her own beliefs, into something that is not reconciliable to his or her own beliefs today, that inevitably comes off to a person like myself as a slam against having a sci-fi universe that the Judeo-Christian audience can easily embrace.

Anyway, I appreciate what you say on this, and I hope I've done your views justice in my response and not misconstrued anything. Thanks for continuing the dialogue.

[Antelope]

Warrior:

Thanks for the reply. That was very insightful. As for the idiot death threat people, I think both sides have their jackasses. Sorry if I came off abrasive these past days.

Antelope

[BST]

Folks,

I want to take this moment to acknowledge a few things:

1- Thank you to Eric for initiating this conversation, continuing the dialogue, and making the effort to understand the opposing points of view;

2- Thank you to everyone else for respecting Eric's original point of view and engaging in conversation which ultimately, it is hoped, will lead to better and broader areas of understanding.


This type of exchange is "what the forums are all about". While we cannot be expected to agree on all points about everything, it is important to keep in mind the respect for another individual is transcendental of anything that we may place into print.


I'm proud of ya! Good job, folks!

BST :)

[Mustex]

It does appear that you want an answer so, here it is.

The comment portrays to me the height of arrogance - there have been some very good science fiction shows produced since Twilight Zone. This new show may appeal to you but, to me it's just not that good and most assuredly does not deserve such a lofty status assigned to it.

That is what the comment says to me.

Ah-ha, sounds like you have pretty much the same interpretation as me of "TNS is more ambitious than all these other shows." I'll continue to take it in that manner until I hear another way of looking at it.

:Nsalute:

[Mustex]

I'm a Christian (and conservative republican) myself and enjoy the show.

I'm a Christian too. However, I feel the Republicans are merely the lesser of two evils. It's not that they mean harm, simply that so many Republican leaders (Bush especially) are too dumb to know what their doing. Now the Democrats want to rip the brains out of unborn childre, that's just. Both parties must be re-educated after Ross Perot's glorious return, and conquest of our government. HAIL PEROT!

:Nsalute:

[Mustex]

PS: I DON'T want an anime/cartoon continuation.

Sorry, but soon live-action will die forever, and all will be as it should be.

Live-action sucks, live-action has always sucked, live-action will always suck.

TOS' biggest weakness was that it was live action.

TNS' biggest weakness is that it is live action.

STs' biggest weakness was that it was live action.

SWs' biggest weakness was that it was live action.

ect.

Edit: I know this goes against my usual philosophy of not stating your opinion as fact, but the pervading view among the TOS fanbase seems to be that anime is inferior to live-action, and unworthy to touch their precious show, and I can only take that as a slap in the face.

:Nsalute:

[Eric Paddon]

Mustex, kindly stick to the topic this thread is supposed to be about, because believe me the virtues (or lack thereof as I see it with regard to TOS) of anime is not why I started this thread.

[Mustex]

Mustex, kindly stick to the topic this thread is supposed to be about, because believe me the virtues (or lack thereof as I see it with regard to TOS) of anime is not why I started this thread.

Why do you focus on me, when Kingfish was likewise discussing this topic?

:Nsalute:

[Eric Paddon]

Because you're the one who turns this thread into a subject of whether anime itself as a medium is being attacked, and that is not the point of this thread, nor is it the point of what anyone else has said. Kingfish, like myself, merely expresses a POV that anime is not a proper medium of continuation for TOS, which has *nothing* to do with whether anime is being attacked or not.

[Mustex]

Because you're the one who turns this thread into a subject of whether anime itself as a medium is being attacked, and that is not the point of this thread. Kingfish, like myself, merely represents a POV that anime is not a proper medium of continuation for TOS, which has *nothing* to do with whether anime is being attacked or not.

I see that very comment as being an attack on anime. If you want to take it somewhere else, start a new thread. Anime is just as capable (in fact, more capable) of handling TOS as (than) live-action.

:Nsalute:

[Eric Paddon]

I see that very comment as being an attack on anime. If you want to take it somewhere else, start a new thread. Anime is just as capable (in fact, more capable) of handling TOS as (than) live-action.

:Nsalute:

The fact that you "see" that comment as a general attack doesn't make it so. And if there's anyone who needs to start a new thread on the subject of anime, it isn't me, beacuse this thread that I started, was designed for the purpose of a general discussion on the issues separating TOS from TNS fans and this little tangent of yours doesn't fall into that category.

[Dawg]

Well, until such time as you cannot tell the difference between a live actor and pure anime, give me a live-action continuation any day of the week.

Until such time, they are cartoons. Sophisticated, yes, but cartoons nontheless.

Now - can we get back to the discussion?

Thankyouverymuch.

;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[BST]

STOP
...and please read...




Please refrain from bringing 'off-topic' elements into the conversation unless they are an essential part of your response.

Items like the advantages and disadvantages, etc of anime vs. live-action are best discussed on a wholly separate thread. Please take this opportunity to open a new thread for discussion.

BST

[amberstar]

Well, until such time as you cannot tell the difference between a live actor and pure anime, give me a live-action continuation any day of the week.

Until such time, they are cartoons. Sophisticated, yes, but cartoons nontheless.

Now - can we get back to the discussion?

Thankyouverymuch.

;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:


Agreed Dawg :salute:

[bsg1fan1975]

Agreed Dawg :salute:

ditto from me Dawg!

[kingfish]

Sorry, but soon live-action will die forever, and all will be as it should be.

Live-action sucks, live-action has always sucked, live-action will always suck.

TOS' biggest weakness was that it was live action.

TNS' biggest weakness is that it is live action.

STs' biggest weakness was that it was live action.

SWs' biggest weakness was that it was live action.

ect.

Edit: I know this goes against my usual philosophy of not stating your opinion as fact, but the pervading view among the TOS fanbase seems to be that anime is inferior to live-action, and unworthy to touch their precious show, and I can only take that as a slap in the face.

:Nsalute:



Without actors you have nothing. Look at Nu Galactica. If you didn't have Callis and Hogan the show would be a joke. These two make it worth watching IMHO. Anime and cartoons are great when the stunts would be impossible for a live actor to do and CGI doesn't cut the mustard.

[jewels]

*doesn't think even Pixar has sufficient software or hardware to capture the sheer expressiveness of Callis' face.*

Please start a new thread for the anime vs. live action debate.

Back to the topic, which was replies to EP's opinions of TNS/TOS and has mostly been an excellent discussion....

Jewels

[Eric Paddon]

Folks,

I want to take this moment to acknowledge a few things:

1- Thank you to Eric for initiating this conversation, continuing the dialogue, and making the effort to understand the opposing points of view;

2- Thank you to everyone else for respecting Eric's original point of view and engaging in conversation which ultimately, it is hoped, will lead to better and broader areas of understanding.


This type of exchange is "what the forums are all about". While we cannot be expected to agree on all points about everything, it is important to keep in mind the respect for another individual is transcendental of anything that we may place into print.


I'm proud of ya! Good job, folks!

BST :)


Pete, thank you for your kind words. While there have been a few dips along the way in this thread, I think for the most part it has managed to be what I had hoped it would be as an important clearing of the air, and a chance for me to get a lot of pent-up feelings about these recent turn of events out of my system.

As a Galactica fan (important disclaimer so people won't confuse this with a comment on real life happenings), the scars of this experience I feel are never going to completely heal absent some events that I think have to happen if there's ever going to be a positive future for TOS in terms of long-term critical reputation, let alone continuation prospects, and which I don't have much optimism for seeing. But at the very least, there's been a chance to have some dialogue and to provide what I hope is some needed enlightenment into the mindset of a TOS fan whose feelings about this situation are not best expressed in one sentence posts or four letter word denunciations of the person or people we don't have a high regard for.