Both a criticism, and a glimmer of hope

[Mustex]

O.k., I hope I'm not going to come right back starting problems again, but while I was out Xenu said something at RA that I felt was perhaps the most mind-blowingly oversight on the part of both fandoms I have ever heard of. To avoid offending any one (to be honest it was in response to a post of mine that would be offensive here), I"m simply going to quote him:

(edited)It goes like this:


I LOVE Dawn of the Dead. Its been my favorite film since I was 13, and I guarantee you I've spent every bit as much time & money on Dawn stuff in the last 20+ years as any fan has ever spent on original Galactica stuff...if not more. I've bought the merchandise, gone to the conventions, met the stars & the filmmakers, worn the T-shirts, every possible thing I could do.

Now, for those of you not familiar (for whatever ungodly reason), George A. Romero, the creator of the Dead films (Night, Dawn, & Day) has been waiting in the wings to make the conclusion to his series of films for 20 years now -since 1985. He's gotten close a time or two, but studio interference & other things have always gotten in the way (sound familiar yet?). For two decades now, fans have been waiting to see the conclusion of the series that began in 1968...and they're just about as hungry for it as Romero's zombies are for their victims.

So, when we fans heard there was new activity on the Dead front a few years ago, we waited with baited breath to see what would happen. Would we finally get the grand, big-budget apocalyptic masterpiece we've been waiting for? The answer was: no. Instead, they were going to "re-imagine" Dawn for a new generation, with a new, younger cast and (heresy of heresies) a DIFFERENT director than George Romero. Needless to say, we fans were not happy (sound familiar yet?.

(edited)

So, the bitching began, of course. Fans were in an uproar....and let me tell you something here: these are horror fans here; if you think sci-fi fans are hardcore, come with me to a Fangoria Weekend of Horrors sometime. How could they be willing to spend millions on a "re-imagining" when there is a perfectly good film waiting to be made with Romero? After all, isn't that why Dawn of the Dead is famous in the first place?

But, nothing could be done...they were going to make their little movie. What were we fans to do? Well, the answer we came up with was....nothing. (edited)
Instead, we thought "well, maybe if this 're-make' thing does well, then it will be a good thing for ALL horror movies, and especially for the Dead series. Heck, if it makes enough money, it might even HELP to get our continuation made (yeah, that part doesn't sound familiar, does it?)!

So, we waitied. The film came out & was very successful. Some of us saw it out of open-mindedness & curiosity, some did not care to. Some liked it, myself included, while at the same time admitting it wasn't even a pretender to Romero's throne...it was, however, a good little zombie film in its own right. I & most others thought it would've been a much better film had it been given a different title, but still, for what it was, it was ok; we knew it would never match the original...but that's not the point. The point is, we supported it, in hopes that greater things could come of it.

And, a few months later, guess what happened? A major studio by the name of....hmm, lemme see...UNIVERSAL(!) approached original creater George Romero and, impressed with the success of the re-make, made him a multimillion dollar offer to produce the long-awaited CONTINUATION of the series that we had always wanted.

So now, almost 2 years later, George is wrapping up the editing of the OFFICIAL fourth Dead film, Land of the Dead, to be released this Halloween. George got full creative control of the project, final cut, and more money to work with than the budget of all the previous Dead films combined. All because a "re-imagining" was not done in by in-fighting & made enough money to make the suits sit up & listen.

Now, everybody's happy. We have our new film, the fans of the re-make are about to get a sequel to the re-make, and all is right in the Dead world (and therefore in mine). Its amazing what can happen in Hollywood.

(edited)

http://ragnaranchorage.proboards25.com/index.cgi?board=spoilers&num=1109094665&action=display&start=0

This makes co-existance look far more promising (although if LOTD flops might as well make sure your blasters tuned up ;) ).

:Nsalute:

[Fragmentary]

Hmm, funny. I've known about the Dawn of the Dead history and about Romero getting to make his film as a result of it, but just never thought of it as a parallel to Galactica. It's interesting to see someone lay it out that way.

[Mustex]

Hmm, funny. I've known about the Dawn of the Dead history and about Romero getting to make his film as a result of it, but just never thought of it as a parallel to Galactica. It's interesting to see someone lay it out that way.

I sentence everyone who knew about this, and didn't think to tell us, to be beaten over the head with a the nearest convient zombie body part for three hours. Xenu gets and hour and a half for waiting so long.

[Gemini1999]

See...

Now, I never really needed someone to point out that a "co-existance" just isn't possible. We've seen more than one James Bond in two different films in the same year. We've seen multiple versions of Superman and Batman on television and in films. We've also seen overlapping Trek films and TV projects at times (although in the same universe) as well.

I've always thought that there was room for both a TV series and a continuation film series - even if made by different directors, casts, etc. at the same time. The only people I've ever heard say that such a thing isn't possible is from the fans. The day I see a fan be able to predict what will and won't work in Hollywood (north or south), they'd also better have a paying job in the industry as well, or it's just talk out of their navels as usual.

I'd be willing to say that even those fans that are deleriously happy with the new BSG series, would be willing to see a continuation film with members of the original series cast in it. I know that there would be some that would balk at the possibilty, but would they buy a ticket if it was in the movie theater down the block? I know I would.

I really would like to think that having Battlestar Galactica in the media's eye with positive reviews and feedback (even if there are BSG fans that don't agree, and that's me some of the time), it would be nice if some studio or producer felt that the series proves that the viability is there for a film. It's all about profit - if one can make money, someone else would like to find a way to cash in on it as well.

I think that something that may be a good example in the near future is "Serenity". A failed TV series with an extremely short life and underestimated audience becoming a major motion picture (with "legs" maybe) - this formula should sound familiar to those that wish for that BSG film that hasn't happened yet.

Here's hoping that there's enough "positive fallout" for everyone in BSG fandom.

Best,
Bryan

[Darrell Lawrence]

The only people I've ever heard say that such a thing isn't possible is from the fans.

Actually, Universal has said they don't want two BG's running around at the same time.

[Gemini1999]

Actually, Universal has said they don't want two BG's running around at the same time.


Darrell -

Who listens to them anyway.....? I sure don't!

Bryan

[repcisg]

As I recall the ORIGINAL proposal of a remake of BSG was to have BioDome ship called Galactica and not a battlestar. That lit the fires that raged for years and set the SciFi management in opposition to the fans.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Ah yes... that was back when Richard and Larson were still going about their ideas... ala pre-DeSanto/Singer by a couple years.

[Eric Paddon]

"I really would like to think that having Battlestar Galactica in the media's eye with positive reviews and feedback (even if there are BSG fans that don't agree, and that's me some of the time), it would be nice if some studio or producer felt that the series proves that the viability is there for a film."

Thinking it is one thing. Reality tells me a different picture, and that reality is unfortunately one in which success of TNS has come at the expense of TOS, and in which it's "success" is linked inexorably to running down the value of TOS. I have seen that from Ron Moore, and I have seen it in more non-Galactica message boards than I can count where I finally walked away in disgust because threads about TNS were done solely in the context of looking down on TOS in the process.

I have never felt more miserable than at any other time in my life as a Galactica fan (I stress those four words because that is not a comment on my personal life) because not only has TNS and it's gushing success story led me to walk away from several forums I've been part of for some time (and briefly from this one), it has also sapped me of any desire to celebrate TOS through new fanfic writing or any other outlet I have normally employed in the past. For however long I have to face the reality of a TNS and a PR base that like it or not is dancing on the grave of TOS and 25 years of trying to see a continuation take place, it's becoming increasingly hard for me to feel the simple pride I once had in being a Galactica fan.

I could long ago accept the notion that a TOS continuation was never going to happen as an unfortunate fact of life, but the things that have happened this past year I doubt very much I can ever accept. The simple joy of what being a Galactica fan always meant to me these many years is sadly gone forever. And it's the loss of that for which I will never forgive Ron Moore.

[Fragmentary]

I disagree with the comments about Ron Moore or Universal running down the original series. The more quotes I read from Moore the more I feel he has a healthy respect for the show and certainly for the fans. At least the respectful ones. As for Universal, it’s just not in their best interests to run down the original show. They still make money from it. The DVDs, licensing fees from the reruns, three brand new toy lines, etc... I think most of the derision that people feel has been expressed by these two parties come from comments out of context, misquotes, or more often, a simple over-sensitivity. A great example of that is Moore’s open letter wherein he basically set forth his creative thoughts about what he was trying to do with the new series. Some people read that and come away angry and feeling like Moore is trashing the original show, I read that and don’t get that sense at all.

I’m not trying to defend Moore or his decisions, just point out that there is great deal of room for interpretation about what has been said regarding the original series. And I hope that people who haven’t heard things from the horse’s mouth will do some reading on their own before they take someone else’s opinion at face value. And by no means am I’m I referring to Eric here. I’m speaking of the larger portion of Galactica fans that feel that Moore and Universal have repeatedly maligned the show.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Actually, it's whoever feeds the stuff to the PR department to send out to the news papers and such... the "reviewers".

SciFi (the member, not the genre :D ) posts a lot of those newspaper links in the nuBG forum area. They all say basically the same thing. They run down osBG and it's fans while promoting nuBG. I've yet to see one where they actually *know* the history of BG.

[bsg1fan1975]

Actually, Universal has said they don't want two BG's running around at the same time.



You are correct. I have seen the same thing at several other places.:thumbsup:

[Centurion Draco]

As I recall the ORIGINAL proposal of a remake of BSG was to have BioDome ship called Galactica and not a battlestar. That lit the fires that raged for years and set the SciFi management in opposition to the fans.

Absolutely! When Sci-Fi first got the chance to take the project over, their preferred option (well of one particular female executive) was allegedly a hideous 'Silent Running Galactica' hybrid.
Wasn't it the backlash from the fans that made Sci-Fi at least opt for TNS in the form it is now?
I'm not the biggest fan of TNS but I still aplaud the efforts of the fans to keep some of the flavour of the original alive in TNS.
I find it more than a little patronising and belittling to have the efforts of so many devoted fans, some of whom actually put their 'money where their mouths are' reduced to:

'we could have trolled all the message boards for the new Dawn, flooded the company with hateful e-mails, sent Photoshopped death-threats to the leading actresses, or - folly of follys - take out a full-page ad in Variety for the suits to laugh at & throw darts in over their morning expressos.'

Now I can't speak for anyone who sent 'death threats' as I have never spoken to anyone who did or would do such a stupid thing. But I will say that I have read many, many, many, well thought out and lucidly written missive's that fans have written to various of the concerned parties about the whole BSG saga, and yes, they may not have gotten exactly what they wanted (a continuation of TOS) but the good name of BSG wasn't killed off once and for all by the atrocity that would have been 'Biodome Galactica'.

I also find that the comparison between the ressurection (no pun intended) of the two projects (Dead and BSG) doesn't really hold water.

[jewels]

Actually, Universal has said they don't want two BG's running around at the same time.
That's TV division though. The merchandising folks are already having a heyday. The film division has some brighter folks in it. Not batting 1000, like say Pixar, but still doing some highly respectable film business and doing unheard of in Hollywood things like throwing major release feature film cash into a "failed" Fox TV franchise.

Yes I know Larson will be a tough nugget to crack if their film division went after it, but money talks, Hollywood walks. It's not a perfect parallel, but at least our sort of lightning has hit once before.

Xenu's point is encouraging. Thanks for sharing it Mustex.

[repcisg]

I would like to add; the world of TV can change dramaticly in a years time. In the space of two years Battlestars owners changed from the USA Network to Universal to NBC. Thats three very different owners in two years, and the changes have not stopped. NBC, will over the next two years, proceed with a series of planned reorgs which will completely change the way things are done.

In two years or even next year we could be looking at an entirely new set of players running SciFi.

[sihirvyth2]

Actually, it's whoever feeds the stuff to the PR department to send out to the news papers and such... the "reviewers".


Aye, although comparisons were inevitable when the mini came out, I read alot of reviews who opened with comments that I thought were purposefully inflammatory towards TOS. Also initially some actors didn't particularly take the high road when it came to dealing with the venting of fans who were upset about the reimagining.

I know alot is made out of 'disgruntled TOS fans' but there were those out there who took advantage of the sensitivity of the subject to create an environment that wasn't constructive, and to stir up fans of the orignal series.

Personally I'm still amazed at the whole TOS/nu thing. I loved TOS, yet I think a major problem with the entire BSG community is that you're made to feel like you have to be on one side or the other. I can still remember alot of animosity over at CA when the mini was coming out. It's interesting how everyone wants to pigeonhole everyone else into a side, kinda like the whole conservative/liberal thing :salute: :Nsalute:

[Dawg]

What I find most interesting is this sudden reference to an old, tired argument that has been discounted time and again: support TNS if you want to see TOS again.

I've got to share with you that I have just come from a conversation with an active fan of Dawn of the Dead who has read what has been reposted here. He found - flaws - in the depictions of events as presented; he disputed the accuracy of this account. However, that is a matter for another place and time.

The reason I'm posting, though, is because I must take issue with the blatant insult in this repost given to several hundred BSG fans who contributed to the CFF effort. A lot of thought and effort went into those ads (which appeared in three publications before all was said and done), which we did not want to be just another fanboy slam against TNS. We wanted (and still want) to keep the movement for a continuation a positive thing, not a negative thing. It's not about what we don't want, but about what we do want.

So to call all the efforts of so many people 'folly' is an affront to their dignity, and is an effort to renew the artificial, personal animosity that served to disrupt us for so long. Won't work this time. I've got too many friends on 'the other side' for that to work again.

It deserves an apology, both for being said and being propogated.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[bsg1fan1975]

What I find most interesting is this sudden reference to an old, tired argument that has been discounted time and again: support TNS if you want to see TOS again.

I've got to share with you that I have just come from a conversation with an active fan of Dawn of the Dead who has read what has been reposted here. He found - flaws - in the depictions of events as presented; he disputed the accuracy of this account. However, that is a matter for another place and time.

The reason I'm posting, though, is because I must take issue with the blatant insult in this repost given to several hundred BSG fans who contributed to the CFF effort. A lot of thought and effort went into those ads (which appeared in three publications before all was said and done), which we did not want to be just another fanboy slam against TNS. We wanted (and still want) to keep the movement for a continuation a positive thing, not a negative thing. It's not about what we don't want, but about what we do want.

So to call all the efforts of so many people 'folly' is an affront to their dignity, and is an effort to renew the artificial, personal animosity that served to disrupt us for so long. Won't work this time. I've got too many friends on 'the other side' for that to work again.

It deserves an apology, both for being said and being propogated.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:



I wholeheartdly agree with what you said about TOS fans in respect to TNS.
Why should we have to be made to jump on the bandwagon to support something we don't agree with in that respect. We have the right to feel the way we do.

[Gemini1999]

So to call all the efforts of so many people 'folly' is an affront to their dignity, and is an effort to renew the artificial, personal animosity that served to disrupt us for so long. Won't work this time. I've got too many friends on 'the other side' for that to work again.

John -

Thanks for that. Given where the post came from and the "Dawn" references (I could care less about any Dawn of the Dead project), I didn't read it that closely. I guess that some people will never put their clubs down and will continue to beat their chests and war drums when things on the boards quiet down periodically. There are lots better things to talk about than the differences between the factions of BSG fandom.

The one thing that some people fail to mention, is that "folly"...Ron Moore and several other people that are TNS viewers also supported and contributed to it. I guess that the only people that could conclude that it was a complete waste of time would be someone that didn't contribute or put any effort into it.

If CFF is "folly", what does one make of the effort that Farscape fans made to get their miniseries? 300 thousand dollars!!! And what of the "folly" of Trek fans to keep Enterprise in production? 3 million dollars!!! Why anyone would bother to complain about the 12 or 13 thousand we raised seems like hardly worth grousing about in comparison.

As I said regarding such efforts to raise money - It's up to those that contribute to determine whether such efforts are worth funding. I contributed more than once to CFF and I don't regret a dime of it. If someone doesn't like what I do with my money, they can sod off for all I care.

I guess that in the end this topic isn't really worth getting worked up about. As you said, it's an old arguement. I've had my say one way or the other....

Best,
Bryan

[Mustex]

Actually, Universal has said they don't want two BG's running around at the same time.

Which proves Universal Studios is run by hypocrites. We can, however, ad this to our list of reasons for a continuation: YOU DID IT FOR DOTD!

:Nsalute:

[Mustex]

"I really would like to think that having Battlestar Galactica in the media's eye with positive reviews and feedback (even if there are BSG fans that don't agree, and that's me some of the time), it would be nice if some studio or producer felt that the series proves that the viability is there for a film."

Thinking it is one thing. Reality tells me a different picture, and that reality is unfortunately one in which success of TNS has come at the expense of TOS, and in which it's "success" is linked inexorably to running down the value of TOS.

post edited.

[Mustex]

I also find that the comparison between the ressurection (no pun intended) of the two projects (Dead and BSG) doesn't really hold water.

Why? :wtf:

:Nsalute:

[Mustex]

I've got to share with you that I have just come from a conversation with an active fan of Dawn of the Dead who has read what has been reposted here. He found - flaws - in the depictions of events as presented; he disputed the accuracy of this account. However, that is a matter for another place and time.


This is the second case of claiming flaws, but noone's told me what they are. And this thread was created for this very comparison, what better time or place could there be?

:Nsalute:

[jewels]

Sorry gang, glazed right over his inadvertant (Xenu's) slams that could be taken as anti-CFF.

I think Mustex posted it because the success of something that was not worthy of the original in DOTD case, enabled a true extension of the original to get back into production.

THAT is what I saw as encouraging.

I don't give a rat's behind what Xenu thought of CFF. To me the value was in telling Hollywood that they missed an option that folks cared about enough to pull together to pull off 2 (now 3) ads. It was noticed by the machinery that eventually could cause something in a continuation vein to be made. Longshot? Yes.

Mustex: if you would, excise (elipses) out the stuff about the normal course of fan campaigns (ads, letters, et all) as that was derogatory, especially in light of Farscape, Firefly, Angel, and Enterprise (all of which have fans here) and CFF which we know had some impact that keeps a spark ignited. I think then you will make the most useful point of Xenu's post: just because someone does a "bad" rendition of a property with some success, doesn't kill the original property's viability every time.


Jewels, who is not a horror fan, so don't ask me why I just justified anything with ref. to a yucky horror flick. Ew.

[Mustex]

Sorry gang, glazed right over his inadvertant (Xenu's) slams that could be taken as anti-CFF.

I think Mustex posted it because the success of something that was not worthy of the original in DOTD case, enabled a true extension of the original to get back into production.

THAT is what I saw as encouraging.

I don't give a rat's behind what Xenu thought of CFF. To me the value was in telling Hollywood that they missed an option that folks cared about enough to pull together to pull off 2 (now 3) ads. It was noticed by the machinery that eventually could cause something in a continuation vein to be made. Longshot? Yes.

Mustex: if you would, excise (elipses) out the stuff about the normal course of fan campaigns (ads, letters, et all) as that was derogatory, especially in light of Farscape, Firefly, Angel, and Enterprise (all of which have fans here) and CFF which we know had some impact that keeps a spark ignited. I think then you will make the most useful point of Xenu's post: just because someone does a "bad" rendition of a property with some success, doesn't kill the original property's viability every time.


Jewels, who is not a horror fan, so don't ask me why I just justified anything with ref. to a yucky horror flick. Ew.

I did a minor edit, removing what I thought was the most unneccessary and offensive part. If there's anything that you think still needs to go then just tell me.

:Nsalute:

[jewels]

edit: Mustex, did get to look at it.

I think if you chop the first paragraph down to the last sentence, keeping the last sentence, cut a hunk of his comparing his level of love of BG to his level of love for DOTD (it's toward the middle, he kinda rambles for a paragraph or two when he's trying to say he's part of just as adamant a fanbase as TOS BG fans, only he thinks we aren't quite as "fierce"? or adamant as I guess he'd say the DOTD were)). Xenu's opinion and it detracts from his story.

Minimizing someone else's perspective is a huge-o mistake. (yep, I've done it, been bit, still healing.)

Also chop the last paragraph out entirely. The value in this is his retelling of the DOTD history, not in his commentary about BG specifically. Those are his conclusions only.

I'm going to edit into the quote code so it shows Xenu's name for you.

Mustex, please choose your post topics wisely, with the audience sensibilities in mind. We want Muffit to return and find Kindness and respect has ruled here in her abscence. That means we don't taunt each other. And we apologize when we say something stupid.

Jewels

[Centurion Draco]

Why? :wtf:

:Nsalute:

I think there are many reasons why the comparison isn't a good one.

Mainly because the projects are so totally different in nature, conception, appeal, audience, genre, and objective etc, that you can't simply say 'the fans got what they wanted with 'Teh Dead', so they'll get it with BSG'.

I find all of his logic flawed. He almost 'gets it' for a moment when he talks about the 'Dead' like it's 'Citizen Cain'. Romero was so seminal in the genre that nothing can ever diminish his personal 'force' when it comes to a continuation of the series. No matter how many pale immitators nip at his heels.
That very fact should actually help to rule out comparisons with BSG.

Now, NOBODY is a bigger BSG fan than I am! And while BSG is sacred to me and many others, there are plenty who see it as very much a 'pretender' to the crown worn by Star Wars in the cinema or Star Trek on TV.
Who would dare say Romero's Zombie flicks are that genre's poor relation?
In fact the only conclusion that I'd draw between 'The Dead' and BSG is that it's as much of a shock that anyone tried messing with Romero's vision, as it is that the BSG community actually nearly got its own way with a continuation series 25 years on!




And I still find the comments about the BSG fans patronising and belittling.
Without the ceasless love of so many devoted fans (some famous, most not), the new series would not exist, and BSG would have ended for good.

[bsg1fan1975]

And I still find the comments about the BSG fans patronising and belittling.
Without the ceasless love of so many devoted fans (some famous, most not), the new series would not exist, and BSG would have ended for good.


Thank you Draco! This is exactly my point as well.


This next part is not a slam to anyone but an observation!

Seems there are people out there that keep forgetting this or just for their own reasons want to forget that TOS existed or sweep it under the rug. Through the efforts of the devoted fans over the years the new show would have never come to fruition.

[kingfish]

edit: Mustex, did get to look at it.

I think if you chop the first paragraph down to the last sentence, keeping the last sentence, cut a hunk of his comparing his level of love of BG to his level of love for DOTD (it's toward the middle, he kinda rambles for a paragraph or two when he's trying to say he's part of just as adamant a fanbase as TOS BG fans, only he thinks we aren't quite as "fierce"? or adamant as I guess he'd say the DOTD were)). Xenu's opinion and it detracts from his story.

Minimizing someone else's perspective is a huge-o mistake. (yep, I've done it, been bit, still healing.)

Also chop the last paragraph out entirely. The value in this is his retelling of the DOTD history, not in his commentary about BG specifically. Those are his conclusions only.

I'm going to edit into the quote code so it shows Xenu's name for you.

Mustex, please choose your post topics wisely, with the audience sensibilities in mind. We want Muffit to return and find Kindness and respect has ruled here in her abscence. That means we don't taunt each other. And we apologize when we say something stupid.

Jewels



I want Muffit to return period. Muffit going is sickening to the bone. I returned to Fleets for Muffit's sake because I do like her. I see I was a KINGFOOL. I guess what Tom Zarek said in Bastille Day is true, "You reap what you soe."

[jewels]

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. *sigh*

[Dawg]

Paul, Muffit will return when circumstance allows it.

In the meantime, the rest of us have come together to insure that her vision for CF is realized: a place where people are comfortable and can have fun, regardless of other considerations. All of the Admins and Mods support that vision and are working very hard to see that vision come to pass.

You do "reap what you sow" - if you sow negativity and dissent, that's what you will get in return.

You - and all our members - can either help us realize Muffits goals, hinder that process, or just sit on the sidelines and watch. We'd all prefer the former.

Being a fool is entirely up to you...

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Eric Paddon]

Post edited because I am very livid over the quote below, and the fact that nothing has been done about it, and said some stuff publicly I should not say at this time publicy on this or any other board.

"Do you live in the same reality in which both the new "Dawn of the Dead," and the upcoming "Land of the Dead" co-exist, or not?"

The presence of that quote and the person behind is yet another reason why like Paul, I am out of here for good (not to mention the inexcusable conduct of yesterday).

[jewels]

Eric,
Try taking it as asking you for context on your reality, i.e. what you are basing your assumption of doom on? Instead of as a slam. He tried gave you his reason to have a glimmer of hope for TOS BG in seeing parallels to DOTD; I'm going to note heavily here that DOTD's remake was successful even though the fans had varied positons of support for it or lack of support. But they will get their continuation anyway.

I think he wants to understand your lack of hope or possibly why you won't even consider that the game may not be over where BG is concerned. Glimmers are less than sparks, barely more than reflections of light.

We can turn a poor twist of words into a good conversation if we try. People do it all the time.

[Fragmentary]

Seems there are people out there that keep forgetting this or just for their own reasons want to forget that TOS existed or sweep it under the rug. Through the efforts of the devoted fans over the years the new show would have never come to fruition.
How so? Specifically.

[justjackrandom]

I usually try to stay out of such discussions, for a number of reasons, but thought I would weigh in with a few comments.

Most of us are very passionate people. We may be passionate about a number of things, but one we all share is a passion for the phenomenon that grew out of the television show Battlestar Galactica. This passion creates strong opinions, and those sometimes come into conflict.

One thing I have always appreciated about Fleets is that many here argue the point in healthy debate. We do so understanding that our passion may be behind our argument, but it is not the foundation of our argument. And as such, we don’t attack the person making the argument.

When I have felt as if I was being attacked in such a way (very seldom), it is usually by someone who seems to have forgotten they are having the argument in writing and not in person. If I place what I would imagine the tone, inflection, and body language would be for those words, I usually find them much less personal.

If I still feel as if its personal, I will usually just ignore it. There is no reason I can see to do otherwise.

Putting down TOS fan efforts to realize our dream of a continuation is a broad-spectrum personal attack.

As for supporting TNS or not supporting TNS, Dawg has it nailed. Support it if you like it, don’t if you don’t, but to argue for fans of TOS to support TNS as the best hope for a continuation of TOS is not only a tired argument, it’s a tired argument that is based on a highly questionable foundation.

To the specifics: Eric, I for one will be sorry to see you go. I do not always agree with your position on things, and I think you can be more combative than is necessary on occasion (your bouts with Darth Marley are always interesting, but sometimes a bit high on the wince-meter). For all of that, I admire your passion, and the insight you bring with your vision of what BSG is. I am sorry that your love and passion has been hurt by the words and actions of others.

Here’s to hoping you find a way to fan the flames back to the roaring blaze they were.

:salute:

JJR

[bsg1fan1975]

How so? Specifically.



How?

Most people who are only watching TNS and are only interested in TNS do forget that without TOS there would have been no hope for a show such as this to be done. Its called "lame",etc. Has anyone who is a TNS only fan and new to the BSG fandom ever sat down and really watched it without being negative? Somehow I don't think they did. I have noticed that the fandom for TNS is mostly in the teen to college age crowd. I have seen alot of praise for TNS at the expense of TOS, and to someone like me I think that is rather biased as to this course of action. The particular attitude toward TOS from most TNS fans are that TOS fans should have never existed and the fans of TOS, no matter how much it sickens them to quiet down and support something that they feel is wrong. Yes, TOS did have its flaws but they made it enjoyable for a family to sit and watch it during a family hour. If I had kids I would never let them watch TNS as it does not promote anything close to being family oriented as TOS did.

[Rowan]

Eric I hear you say you are livid over a post and that nothing has been done about it.
I understand you are upset (((((Eric)))).
If I may give you my interpretation in the hopes that it might help a little.


Xenu offers the dead history as an example of how despite getting the wrong continuation that in the end they got the continuation they all wanted.

Mustex felt that this provides a glimmer of hope for BSG that although TNS exists now it does not mean that a continuation for TOS can’t happen because after all that is what happened for Dead.


Part of your response to this post was the following comment:
"...Reality tells me a different picture, and that reality is unfortunately one in which success of TNS has come at the expense of TOS..."

In which it appeared that you were saying reality is that the existence of TNS will prevent the possibility of a continuation for TOS.


Mustex is simply questioning how you can deny the reality of the history of Dead which is that their TNS did not prevent a continuation for their TOS.

His question more simply stated: Did it or didn’t it happen?

He was trying to offer the hope that if it happened for Dead it could happen for BSG.

:salute:

[Centurion Draco]

How?

Most people who are only watching TNS and are only interested in TNS do forget that without TOS there would have been no hope for a show such as this to be done. Its called "lame",etc. Has anyone who is a TNS only fan and new to the BSG fandom ever sat down and really watched it without being negative? Somehow I don't think they did. I have noticed that the fandom for TNS is mostly in the teen to college age crowd. I have seen alot of praise for TNS at the expense of TOS, and to someone like me I think that is rather biased as to this course of action. The particular attitude toward TOS from most TNS fans are that TOS fans should have never existed and the fans of TOS, no matter how much it sickens them to quiet down and support something that they feel is wrong. Yes, TOS did have its flaws but they made it enjoyable for a family to sit and watch it during a family hour. If I had kids I would never let them watch TNS as it does not promote anything close to being family oriented as TOS did.


I think you have a completely valid view BSGfan.
I'd even add that as someone who is trying to get the most out of TNS, which for a die hard Original fan can be a challenge, I'm getting a little 'ticked off' not only by the dismissive attitudes of some of the new series fans, but also by the comments of some of TNS cast in interviews!
Specifically a certain 'Mrs Starbuck'.
But to a lesser extent others as well.
I think that in some quarters, there is currently a very disrespectful attitude towards TOS, it's cast, and its fanbase, which is somewhat rich when it often originates from those either too young to remember TOS in context, or for that matter actors who until they landed roles in the new series were completely unknown.
Some people should remember that 'their' show, or 'their' job, even 'their' carreers, exist because of a short lived 70s tv show, its fantastically charismatic cast, and a fanbase that simply refused to let it die.

As I said, I'm trying to find the best in TNS, I'm currently re-watching the series to hopefully more identify with characters that didn't particularly stir me first time around, but I'm finding that the comments of some are making that an even harder task.


Now I'm not looking to offend anyone, and I hope that as we are all Science Fiction fans we can all get along together. But I think that it needs to cut both ways, and people need to be careful when they are dismissive or belittling of something that so many have loved for so long, or the effots that said fans have made to keep that dream alive.

Peace all.

[Fragmentary]

How?

Most people who are only watching TNS and are only interested in TNS do forget that without TOS there would have been no hope for a show such as this to be done. Its called "lame",etc. Has anyone who is a TNS only fan and new to the BSG fandom ever sat down and really watched it without being negative? Somehow I don't think they did. I have noticed that the fandom for TNS is mostly in the teen to college age crowd. I have seen alot of praise for TNS at the expense of TOS, and to someone like me I think that is rather biased as to this course of action. The particular attitude toward TOS from most TNS fans are that TOS fans should have never existed and the fans of TOS, no matter how much it sickens them to quiet down and support something that they feel is wrong. Yes, TOS did have its flaws but they made it enjoyable for a family to sit and watch it during a family hour. If I had kids I would never let them watch TNS as it does not promote anything close to being family oriented as TOS did.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. How is it.... "(If not) through the efforts of the devoted fans over the years the new show would have never come to fruition"?

[Fragmentary]

Good words Justjackrandom :salute: :Nsalute:
In my heart of hearts, I think that the vast majority of us here feel the same way you do. Part of the fun of coming to a place like this getting wait deep in minutia and personal interpretation. But, some people lose sight of that and things get ugly. It's important for everyone to remember, just because someone takes issue or gets pissy, or throws the first punch... they are the minority. Most of us are level headed about all of this and keep the shows and forums in their proper perspective. Don't let the few color your view of the whole Colonial Fleets family.

To that end, I really wish people would stop saying "we" when speaking of TOS fans or TNS fans. As though they speak for the silent masses. I'd prefer if everybody would be accurate and just say, "this is MY opinion" or "this is how I feel". Instead of building on the ludicrous idea that there are two opposing sides in Galactica fandom wherein everyone feels the same. There isn't, and there never has been. Stop speaking for the rest of us. Er... the rest of me. Others can agree if they want to. Or not, that's fine too. Stop staring at me! ;)

[Mustex]

I think there are many reasons why the comparison isn't a good one.

Mainly because the projects are so totally different in nature, conception, appeal, audience, genre, and objective etc, that you can't simply say 'the fans got what they wanted with 'Teh Dead', so they'll get it with BSG'.

I find all of his logic flawed. He almost 'gets it' for a moment when he talks about the 'Dead' like it's 'Citizen Cain'. Romero was so seminal in the genre that nothing can ever diminish his personal 'force' when it comes to a continuation of the series. No matter how many pale immitators nip at his heels.
That very fact should actually help to rule out comparisons with BSG.

Now, NOBODY is a bigger BSG fan than I am! And while BSG is sacred to me and many others, there are plenty who see it as very much a 'pretender' to the crown worn by Star Wars in the cinema or Star Trek on TV.
Who would dare say Romero's Zombie flicks are that genre's poor relation?
In fact the only conclusion that I'd draw between 'The Dead' and BSG is that it's as much of a shock that anyone tried messing with Romero's vision, as it is that the BSG community actually nearly got its own way with a continuation series 25 years on!

Excellent point, I'll mention it to Xenu and here what he has to say (although I hope it doesn't inflate his ego too much).

And I still find the comments about the BSG fans patronising and belittling.
Without the ceasless love of so many devoted fans (some famous, most not), the new series would not exist, and BSG would have ended for good.

Yes, there is (unfortunately) some feeling of patronizing. And yes, we probably wouldn't have TNS without you. However, I'm not convinced that Moore wouldn't have made a similar space opera anyway, and if so it would have been able to develop it's own story from scratch. That might have been even better.

:Nsalute:

[Mustex]

Thank you Draco! This is exactly my point as well.


This next part is not a slam to anyone but an observation!

Seems there are people out there that keep forgetting this or just for their own reasons want to forget that TOS existed or sweep it under the rug. Through the efforts of the devoted fans over the years the new show would have never come to fruition.

I thought this would be a good time to mention something. By the time I got interested in CFF, the money for the ads was raised, and all that was left to do was write. I'm actually a bit annoyed that that's as far as my contribution can go, and I'm eagerly awaiting the next ad to put money into. Needless to say I support a continuation.

:Nsalute:

[Darrell Lawrence]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. How is it.... "(If not) through the efforts of the devoted fans over the years the new show would have never come to fruition"?

Frag, I *think* she's trying to say that without Richard Hatch bringing the thought of waking up the sleeping Giant again way back when, along with the assistance of many fans and that having continued since then, it's doubtful anyone in Hollywood would have given it a second thought in reviving it.

But because Richard and his trailer, made with the help of fans, it made some noise, the giant stirred. Then Larson sorta woke up (if only to prevent Richard's project from going forward), and so on.

[bsg1fan1975]

Frag, I *think* she's trying to say that without Richard Hatch bringing the thought of waking up the sleeping Giant again way back when, along with the assistance of many fans and that having continued since then, it's doubtful anyone in Hollywood would have given it a second thought in reviving it.

But because Richard and his trailer, made with the help of fans, it made some noise, the giant stirred. Then Larson sorta woke up (if only to prevent Richard's project from going forward), and so on.

Thanks Warrior. This was exactly my point, that and the fact that the original does exist, even if some want to dispute its merits. I also wanted to say that no matter how flawed or "lame" some may see TOS, that without TOS ever being exposed to people that a show like TNS would not exist today. So to sum it all up that if TOS never existed TNS would not be around today!

[justjackrandom]

So to sum it all up that if TOS never existed TNS would not be around today!

That’s the trouble with young folk today: No sense of history! ;)

Seriously, though, the point should be self-evident. If anyone doesn’t understand this, then they have bigger problems than can be addressed here.

-JJR

[jewels]

I sentence everyone who knew about this, and didn't think to tell us, to be beaten over the head with a the nearest convient zombie body part for three hours. Xenu gets and hour and a half for waiting so long.
:blink: :wtf: :eek: :duck: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Mustex: Sorry, the sarcasm was unexpected and funny. Ummm. Usually around here it's been limp noodle lashings...but whatever works for you. Xenu definitely deserves some form of "repayment" for sitting on info. ;)

Another near parallel, though again not a perfect one, was Lost In Space. The late 90s movie wasn't that successful but a TV continuation with the original cast was in preproduction (?) when Jonathan Harris (Dr. Smith) died. Someone tried to restart that effort also with a different tactic, but I think it's currently being reworked a bit, not sure if it isn't entirely shelved.

Thank you for editing your post (the thread starting one), Mustex.

[justjackrandom]

Another near parallel, though again not a perfect one, was Lost In Space. The late 90s movie wasn't that successful but a TV continuation with the original cast was in preproduction (?) when Jonathan Harris (Dr. Smith) died. Someone tried to restart that effort also with a different tactic, but I think it's currently being reworked a bit, not sure if it isn't entirely shelved.

I loved the first half of season one of LIS. Talk about dark and serious. A number of years back (I don't remember just how far), someone published a comic series that picked up about mid-season one and then created an 'alternate' version of the story, keeping the darker feel, with Smith really being a very sinister character throughout.

-JJR

[Gemini1999]

A number of years back (I don't remember just how far), someone published a comic series that picked up about mid-season one and then created an 'alternate' version of the story, keeping the darker feel, with Smith really being a very sinister character throughout.

JJR -

That someone was Bill Mumy, who played Will Robinson in the TV series. Bill Mumy wrote many of the stories during the comic's run in the 90's - Mark Goddard (Maj. West) also wrote one of the stories as well. The publishing company was called Innovation and the comic series was very popular. Unfortunately, Innovation went out of business and the series was never finished. Dark Horse bought the license to the Lost in Space comic series and made one or two when the remake film was released, but they were based on the film - it was another LIS comic series that was never finished.

LIS is one of those series, that has been reworked many times, never had a resolution, or some versions seen the light of day (such as the WB's recent series remake). I was hoping for the NBC telefilm version, but when Jonathan Harris passed away, so did that project.

I've just recently purchased the newly released Season 3 DVD set and I've been watching the episodes. Lost in Space was indeed the most campy, cheesy, and silly shows, but it is one of my top 3 favorite SciFi shows of all time. The family dynamic, the technology and the talent involved in that show still manages to entertain me as it did when I was 8 years old. Somewhere, I've got unbuilt models of the Jupiter 2 and the Space Pod and I've got the Johnny Lightning toys on my desk. Recently, I found a picture of the Jupiter 2 lifting off from an exploding planet (from season 2) - I framed the picture and have it hanging in my cubicle. It gets a lot of attention from both people that remember the show, or have no idea that the show existed.

My most prized LIS goodies are personally autographed pics of June Lockhart and Mark Goddard. It was quite a treat to meet 2 people from a TV show that I loved as a child. They were 2 of the most gracious and appreciative celebs I've had the pleasure of meeting.

Am I a fan of Lost in Space? I guess that you could say that....!

Best,
Bryan

[Mustex]

My most prized LIS goodies are personally autographed pics of June Lockhart and Mark Goddard.

Is she related to Ann Lockhart?

:Nsalute:

[Darrell Lawrence]

Her mother.

[Mustex]

Excellent point, I'll mention it to Xenu and here what he has to say (although I hope it doesn't inflate his ego too much).


I did so, and most of what he said is best left un-mentioned. This is about all that I can post:

but my point was just that if they thought there was enuff $$$ involved, the studios will put out as many Galacticas as they can...if there are millions of $$$ to be made, the suits dont give a felgercarb about who's confused about the new or old or who isnt, as long as they buy a ticket.

If anyone wants to see the full thing PM me. He also mentioned that he considers himself done with this debate, he simply saw a connection and decided to post it.

:Nsalute:

[Mustex]

Her mother.

Should I take that as cool, or a sign she was pushed into the family business (Carrie Fisher would have a field day, she hates that kind of thing, and won't let cameras anywhere near her daughter).

:Nsalute:

[BST]

Mustex,

Perhaps that would be a question to ask Anne, should we be fortunate enough to have a chat with her at some point in the future.

:)

[Darrell Lawrence]

Should I take that as cool, or a sign she was pushed into the family business (Carrie Fisher would have a field day, she hates that kind of thing, and won't let cameras anywhere near her daughter).

:Nsalute:

http://battlestargalactica-fleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9641&highlight=Lockhart

[Gemini1999]

Is she related to Anne Lockhart?

Mustex -

Notice any resemblance?

http://broph.homesite.net/Movies/MovieTime/June%20and%20Anne%20Lockhart%20Sigs%20Cropped.jpg


June, with Lost in Space co-star, the late Guy Williams:

http://www.heavenandearthandyou.com/images/JLOCKHART_lg.jpg

I hope that helps....

Bryan

[LadyImmortal]

Ann still has a lot of class!

--Rhonda