The Battlestar Kobol

[Centurion Draco]

Every time I watch 'Saga' and i hear Serena say:
'So far details of the armistice going on at this moment on the Star Kobol are not coming as hoped For, because of unusual electrical interference...'

I find myself more and more sure that Kobol is in fact another Battlestar.
My reasoning is as follows:
Obviously she isn't actually referring to a 'star'.
The planet Kobol's location is long forgotten.
Kobol is so important to the colonists, wouldn't it naturally follow that a Battlestar would be named after it?
Isn't 'Star' an obvious abbreviation of 'BattleStar'?

I think it's safe to assume that the talks were to be held on a ship not a planet, as the council, President Adar and Baltar are all on the Atlantia waiting for the Cylon delegation.
Either they were to shuttle to a Cylon ship, a neutral location (unlikely, given that there is no mention of preparing to leave), or stay on the Atlantia (perhaps the name was changed and the mention in Janes lines was missed?)

I imagine just like everything else, this subject has been roundly discussed over the years, so what do you warriors think?
Was Kobol a BattleStar?

[jewels]

Or was it more of a Luxury liner that was going to be used as a meeting place for the signing of the armistice?

I always figured it was a civilian ship, utilized so that the peace proceedings were in a peaceful environment.

I was always intrigued that Adar was on the Atlantia at the time of the attack.

Jewels

[Centurion Draco]

Hmmm, I thought about a large civilian ship or even an orbital station, but the fact that she definately says 'Star Kobol' makes me think 'BattleStar'. Like people say 'Carrier' instead of 'Aircraft-Carrier'.

Or do you think that 'Star' was actually a different class of colonial ship, like a subclass of Battlestar, or a civilian 'cruise liner' version?

[BRG]

I thought it was maybe something like the Royal Yacht Britannia or Air Force One. You know, an official Colonial ship, but not a warship like Atlantia.
But given that they used a space station as a meeting place for the new mini, that could be the smart bet.

As for Adar being on Atlantia when the ambush occured. I assume that he and the delegates would transfer from Atlantia to the Star Kobol at the same time as the Cylon delegation transfer from they're flagship.

BRG

[Dawg]

I'd actually agree with that.

But this:

But given that they used a space station as a meeting place for the new mini, that could be the smart bet.

Wha??? :wtf:

One has little to do with the other; the mini's premise with regard to the Cylons and the war is so radically different from TOS that you cannot draw parallels there with any hope of any point of similarity.

However, if you look at it from the viewpoint of our own history, a peace accord usually gets finalized at some neutral site - for example, Camp David with regard to Israel and Egypt on September 17, 1978. It would make sense to use some non-military ship in neutral space as the rendezvous for the factions to finalize the accords.

My 2 cubits.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[AJMarks]

I've always thought that the Star Kobol was the president's yacht. But it does raise the question as to why Adar was aboard the Atlantia. Perhaps it was a writing error from a frist draft that was never corrected or the original name that Larson wanted for the Atlantia and changed his mind during his writing.
Just my 2 cents.

[BRG]

I'd actually agree with that.

But this:



Wha??? :wtf:

One has little to do with the other; the mini's premise with regard to the Cylons and the war is so radically different from TOS that you cannot draw parallels there with any hope of any point of similarity



All I ment was that as they used space station in the mini, maybe it was a wee nod to what the Star Kobol was in the original. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, especially after the fallout on the Beefs forum! ;)

I agree about the neutral venue for the peace summit. In the absence of a third party to host the summit, a meeting on a non combat vessel in open space would be the logical choice.
BRG



Edit to add closing quote tag. BST

[Spike The Cylon]

I thought it was maybe something like the Royal Yacht Britannia or Air Force One. You know, an official Colonial ship, but not a warship like Atlantia.
But given that they used a space station as a meeting place for the new mini, that could be the smart bet.




That's what I always thought. A space station outside of both Cylon and Colonial space.

:colonial: :cylon: :viper:

[Dawg]

I'd actually agree with that.

But this:



Wha??? :wtf:

One has little to do with the other; the mini's premise with regard to the Cylons and the war is so radically different from TOS that you cannot draw parallels there with any hope of any point of similarity



All I ment was that as they used space station in the mini, maybe it was a wee nod to what the Star Kobol was in the original. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, especially after the fallout on the Beefs forum! ;)

I agree about the neutral venue for the peace summit. In the absence of a third party to host the summit, a meeting on a non combat vessel in open space would be the logical choice.
BRG

Ah. OK. I get it now. And I wasn't trying to be argumentative myself, just confused about where you were coming from with that.

It would have been a nice gesture, but I don't think the space station was a nod of any size toward TOS, since it was created the way it was; remember, the origins of the Cylons are different, the parameters of the war are different - heck, the only thing remotely similar between the opening moments of Saga and the first half of the mini is the fact it was a sneak attack.

I think the space station was created from the same place the Star Kobol was - our own history of conflict resolution - neutral ground.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:



Edit to add closing quote tag.

[Fragmentary]

The only way for Star Kobol to be a battlestar is if 'star' is an accepted abbreviation of battlestar. If not, then we have a ship called Battlestar Star Kobol. That doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. Have we ever heard 'star' used in place of battlestar any other time? If not, then I think that suggests that Star Kobol is something other than a battlestar. The name certainly does sound ceremonial.

[Centurion Draco]

The only way for Star Kobol to be a battlestar is if 'star' is an accepted abbreviation of battlestar. If not, then we have a ship called Battlestar Star Kobol. That doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. Have we ever heard 'star' used in place of battlestar any other time? If not, then I think that suggests that Star Kobol is something other than a battlestar. The name certainly does sound ceremonial.


Sernea's a civilian commentator, and if she is abbreviating Battlestar to 'star' then perhaps its because she's speaking about one of many Battlestars that still exist, and if there is a hint of lazy familiarity in such an abbreviation, the it's not as though anyone would not know what the 'Kobol' was (or the names of any of the remaining Battlestars).
Besides, two word terms/names often get cut to one word (aircraft carrier being the obvious example). I do think its very possible that she means 'Battlestar'.

When he returns from the battle and is confronted by Athena, Starbuck refers to the Galactica as his 'base ship' which is also a term used for Cylon capitol ships, but is the only time we ever hear someone refer to a Battlestar in that way.
I don't think its too much of a stretch to call a Battlestar a 'Star'.
Also, Kobol is a Planet, not a Star?
So if the ship's name is 'Star Kobol' then we must assume that the Planet Kobol's star is also called Kobol? How confusing is that?

I think the most likely explanation is that the Atlantia was originally going to be called the Kobol, and that 'Star' is an abbreviation.
So basically, a script change that was not perfectly integrated.
Aside from that we are left with the problem of that word (as you said).
I lean away from 'Star Kobol' being a ship name because Kobol's not a star (unless we're missing the obvious? 'Saga of a STAR world'? Kobol, the origin of the lords of Kobol/ founders of the colonies? Is it just a mistake referring to the founders planet as a star?) Do the colonists call Kobol a star because they look up into the sky and wonder which 'star' is Kobol?
I dont know, perhaps I'm over-analysing it, I guess I do believe Kobol was a Battlestar.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Well... Earth, AKA Terra in real life, has a sun that is the center of the Terran System.

So why couldn't the star Kobol orbits around be the center of the Kobol system?

I've heard of Earth referred to as "Starship Earth" as well.

So with these "odd" names, I don't think it's a reach to call something the "Star Kobol".

*leaves $ .02 on the table*

[TopGun]

Terra is Latin for Earth

[jewels]

Isn't the sun at the center of our solar system called Sol? probably also Latin term?

Just remember seeing that somewhere.

Jewels

[BRG]

Isn't the sun at the center of our solar system called Sol? probably also Latin term?

Just remember seeing that somewhere.

Jewels

Yes it is. Thats what I was taught at school anyway. ;)

Apparently Sol is what the Romans called the sun, the Greeks called it Helios. I've heard the name Sol used in a a few sci fi shows, I think the most recent was Smallville.
BRG

[Darrell Lawrence]

Yes, Sol is yet another name for the sun. The solar system is *more* often referred to the "Sol System" in scifi. The "Terran System" name is used less, but is still used at anyrate.

[TopGun]

They use Sol in the Wing Commander Games

[BRG]

Yes, Sol is yet another name for the sun. The solar system is *more* often referred to the "Sol System" in scifi. The "Terran System" name is used less, but is still used at anyrate.

I think "Terran System" is used in Star Trek. I remember when the Borg attacked in 'Best of Both Worlds', Worf informed the bridge that they were on a direct corse for the Terran System.
I also remember from my old Sega Mega Drive 'Buck Rogers' game from about 10 years ago, that mutant humans from outside the City were called "Terrans" while those in the City were just called Humans.

BTW, in parts of London, they call the sun the Currant Bun. I havn't heard that term used in a sci fi show yet. :D
BRG

[Centurion Draco]

Yup our sun is the star sol. ;)

[Centurion Draco]

BTW, in parts of London, they call the sun the Currant Bun. I havn't heard that term used in a sci fi show yet. :D
BRG

You can buy 10 currant buns for a deep sea diver!

[Spike The Cylon]

So, does that mean that another name for Earth would be Sol III?

[TopGun]

I quess so

Also in the afforemention Wing Commander Games, the government is the Terran Confederation

[Darrell Lawrence]

Spike, actually, yes. I have heard of Earth referred to as Sol III in scifi in regards to being the third planet in the Sol system :)

[TopGun]

As in the title of "Third Rock From The Sun"

[Gunstar Aries]

I tend to agree with the Liner theory.

Diplomatic protocol would dictate the delegates would travel to the site in their own vessels, then go to 'neutral' territory for the actual signing. Atlantia was the Human Flagship; the President and Quorum were naturally aboard her.

Since the Cylons have no vessels suitable for this task (I'm assuming a part form a troop transport, and that's a military vessel) a Colonial merchantman/non-military vessel could easily have been agreed upon as being 'neutral enough'.

The Star of Kobol could have been proceeding independently the rendezvous point (likely, to maintain her 'neutrality') or could have been trailing the battlestars. Remember when Adama tries to get the fleet to launch Vipers? Baltar convinces Adar not to because 'so close to the rendezvous'. So the rendezvous hadn't taken place yet...

BTW, in the most recent Hatch book Destiny, it's revealed that the Rising Star was 'Baltar's ship.' He was a wealthy man before the fall (figures, desiring even more power) and owned the shipping line...

My own thoughts on the Peace Conference is that the humans are winning the war. Adar uses the phrase that the Cylons have "sued for peace." Machines, thinking logically would not use deception to deliver the final blow to their enemies. If the Cylons were winning, they would just keep on going, knowing in the end, victory is theirs.

But if they were loosing, and their logical minds would have difficulty. They've created an empire just doing what they've been doing, establishing the Cylon order in the galaxy. But the Humans have stood in their way. And are beating them. Baltar's offer to betray humanity in exchange for his Colony would be like a god-send. The Cylons would see the way to victory even though they were down.

For some further 'backing' for my thoughts: If the Cylons were winning the war, what did they need to send the fighters alone to Cimtar for? If they're winning, shoudn't they have plenty of base stars to both destroy the Battlestar Fleet, AND destory the Colonies? Or at least have enough to destroy the Colonial Battlestars THEN destroy the Colonies? But they only had enough for the latter, not the former....

Regards,

G A

[Spike The Cylon]

I had always thought the Cylons were losing the war, and a sneak attack was the only option of winning they had left.

[TopGun]

Never though of like that

[Gunstar Aries]

I had always thought the Cylons were losing the war, and a sneak attack was the only option of winning they had left.

That's kind I started on the topic. But thinking more about it, consider what we see of Caprica. Before the attack, people are going about their business, well dress, well fed. This doesn't look like a civilization that's on or has just come off a total war economy, where everything is devoted to the fight. It has plenty of merchant vessels plying the stars, even luxury liners.

Also, we know that more than the 5 battlestars seen in the 1st Fleet have existed. (Some count 12, some more, the number is not really relevant to the argument.) We know many have been lost. Then why in the last 500 yarhen of hte battlestar's existence as a type have there been no replacements? Could it be that no replacements were needed? That as a military machine, they were doing a fine job, and even when the Cylons managed a victory like the one over the 5th Fleet at Molecay, the victory was phyrric in nature? Any civilization that could built 12 and maintain a high standard of living could certainly build a few more...

As I said about the Cylons, if they were winning, why didn't they have enough basestars for both the destruction of the 1st fleet AND the destruction of the Colonies. We only see three when Galactica makes it back, and we know that three are more than a match for a battlestar, especially a battlestar with no Vipers.

We also know that the Galactica has the practically undivided attention of the Cylon military machine (pardon the pun.) We know this because since the destruction of the Colonies, Cain has been raiding Gamoray. The Cylons have been unable to scrape together enough firepower to deal with him. Prior to the destruction, the Cylons were STILL unable to mass enough firepower to deal with him, though they were preoccupied with the five battlestars of the Colonial Fleet. They might have won at Molecay, but obviously enough of their forces didn't survive, or survive in good enough condition, to pursue the Pegasus. We know that because if they had, she'd have been run down and destroyed, heading away from any Colonial help as she did.

My additional thoughts,

G A

[Senmut]

Frontier Space Station?

[Spike The Cylon]

Frontier Space Station?
You mean like the Colonial verison of DS9?

[Sept17th]

...she definately says 'Star Kobol' makes me think 'BattleStar'. Like people say 'Carrier' instead of 'Aircraft-Carrier'.

That has been my take.

[TopGun]

Colonial Space Nine :D

[Fragmentary]

That would make an interesting setting for a Galactica fan film. If there were such things.... :Nsad:

[Spike The Cylon]

That would make an interesting setting for a Galactica fan film. If there were such things.... :Nsad:
Hmm, sounds like a project for "Worlds of Galactica" ;)
Maybe it could be a board wide project?

[TopGun]

Who would be a good Commander for the station?

[Centurion Draco]

The Free Cylon Alliance could sell our colonial 'friends' a low mileage Base Star with a slightly faulty hyperdrive that you could use as a perfect orbital station?
After all, it wouldn't need to make jumps if it's permenantly in orbit?
It rotates nicely, makes its own gravity, has more landing bays than you could shake a stick at, and only has 14,000,000,000,000,000 star miles on the clock!
Finance available, full dealer service history.
We'll even include a very retro commanders chair on a pedestal!
:cylon:

[Fragmentary]

The Free Cylon Alliance could sell our colonial 'friends' a low mileage Base Star with a slightly faulty hyperdrive that you could use as a perfect orbital station?
After all, it wouldn't need to make jumps if it's permenantly in orbit?
It rotates nicely, makes its own gravity, has more landing bays than you could shake a stick at, and only has 14,000,000,000,000,000 star miles on the clock!
Finance available, full dealer service history.
We'll even include a very retro commanders chair on a pedestal!
:cylon:
We'll take two!
Please ship them to Earth. No, I can't give you the address. I'm sure you can find it. Try calling information on Kobol. ;)

[TopGun]

It would probably be an Attack Star

[Centurion Draco]

We only ship to verified Paypal address's OK?

[SpyOne]

Every time I watch 'Saga' and i hear Serena say:
'So far details of the armistice going on at this moment on the Star Kobol are not coming as hoped For, because of unusual electrical interference...'

I find myself more and more sure that Kobol is in fact another Battlestar.


My $0.02:
Of course she is referring to a ship, but the name of the ship is not Kobol. Try this sentence:'So far details of the armistice going on at this moment on the Galactica are not coming as hoped for, because of unusual electrical interference...'
So the ship's name is the Star Kobol.
Is it a Battlestar? I happen to think so. I have always felt that the Armistice was going to be signed at a particular point in space that had been agreed upon: the Colonies sent their delegation in Battlestars and they were waiting for the Cylon delegation. It seemed clear that the President was still aboard his Battlestar and was waiting to recieve the Cylon delegation.

So. IMO, the Star Kobol is the President's Battlestar.
But wat, wasn't that ship called the Atlantea? Yes, but if getting the name of a ship wrong is the biggest mistake you've found in those 3 hours, you just aren't paying attention. :)

YMMV.

[Raptor]

Ever since I got the DVDs, and saw that bit with Serina, I've thought she said:

"...on the Star of Kobol..."

It would also make sense that the 'Star of Kobol' would a civ ship, though the Japanse did surender to the USA in 1945 on a US battleship, IIRC. Though that was a military surender, not a peace confrence.

Just this humble newbies opinon.:duck:

[TopGun]

Welcome aboard

[BS Cerberus]

This post is of course IMHO :D

I have always believed that the word 'star' was used instead of 'ship' for large interstellar spacecraft. IE, instead of 'battleship' we have 'battlestar' and instead of 'baseship' we have 'basestar'.

Since we have no DIRECT evidence to go on, let's analyze her statement:


'So far details of the armistice going on at this moment on the Star Kobol are not coming as hoped for, because of unusual electrical interference...'

Her use of the word 'on' clearly indicates either a planet or ship (star). A space station would more likely use the word 'at'.

I would suggest that it is very unlikely that a planet was names 'Star Kobol'.

If you accept that 'star' refers to a interstellar spacecraft, you are left with two possibilities; There is a Battlestar Kobol, or some other type of interstellar spacecraft named Kobol.

Going further, it seems unlikely that they would name anything other than the fleets most prestigious warship 'Kobol'. It doesn't seem to me you would name a civilian ship 'Kobol', that would be similar to naming a luxury liner 'Jesus Christ' (it's a shaky comparison, but you get the idea). I just don't buy it. Kobol was their spiritual and actual homeland and was the embodiment of their religious beliefs.

Despite the fact they are all on the 'Atlantia', and no other mentions of any kind of ship bearing the name Kobol, we are never-the-less left with this analysis.

The only other plausible explanation - and the simplest - is that much like Air Force One is the name of any aircraft with the president in it, similarly, 'Star Kobol' could be the name of any ship with the president in it.

Akums Razor tells me it is the second one.

Read the stament again with the Air Force One analogy:

'So far details of the armistice going on at this moment on Air Force One are not coming as hoped for, because of unusual electrical interference...'

Seems likely to me.

[warhammerdriver]

Is the DVD close captioned? That would probably be the best way to get what Serina actually says.

I doubt very seriously that a reporter for a Colonies wide network would shorten Battlestar to just 'Star. I think that there is another ship--most probably a Colonial Government vessel--named either the Star Kobol or Star of Kobol being mentioned.

I don't think the Colonial military would change the name of a whole Battlestar when the President is aboard. Shuttles, probably. Inter-colonial craft, sure. Entire Battlestar--nah.

[TopGun]

interesting point there Cerberus

[justjackrandom]

Seems likely to me.

What a great concept! :salute: :salute:

--JJR

[Damocles]

Take the words STAR KOBOL.

Apply to a show written by Glen Larsen and Donald Belisario,(Donald who had military(naval/marine) experience.

http://www.shawsavillships.co.uk/white.htm (http://)

In common merchanter parlance, a ship could be referred to as;

White Star Arabic much as one might refer to an American oil tanker owned by Exxon as the Exxon Valdez.

Best guess for Star Kobol then is the read "Star Kobol": Star being the shipping company and the word Kobol being the name of the merchant ship(type unknown.).

Two EA credits worth. :salute:

[Senmut]

I saw it as some sort of Sapce Station, marking the Colonial/Cylon frontier.

[Qeutzal]

I would also like to put in my two cubits in of this discussion. I believe that the Star Kobal was not a battlestar or any kind of military ship but a diplomatic ship of the colonial government. I am pretty sure many or all poloticians would rather take credit in ending the war than have the military take credit. As for the name Star Kobal, it is short for Star of Kobal. I also believe that she is equivelent to Airforce One. From Sarina's news report, the Star Kobal was sent ahead of the the peace delegation. As you remember, the Atlantia, Galactica, and the other battlestars were on there way to rondevou with the Star Kobal. That is why we see President Adar on the Atlantia.

I am also pretty sure that the Star Kobal was the first ship distroyed on that fateful day. :cry:

[Westy]

Star Kolbol was the Quarum of the 12's ceremonial ship...the peace accords were to be officially signed on it. She was not a Battlestar. We hashed this point out a few times over the years...in SOASW, you got to see the interior of it. That was where Adar said "I'd like to raise my chalice to you....." etc. There were only 5 Battlestars at Cimtar and one was not Star Kobol.


The Battlestars at Cimtar were: Atlantia, Galactica, Acropolis, Columbia and Pacifica (some people put the Solaria in that list and remove the Pacifica). Also, a ship named Triton was there, but she was a frigate or an escort of some sort which accompanied Pacifica...evidently.

We saw the Atlantia blow up, we say Galactica...obvisouly...we heard in the background dialog on Galactica's bridge about Acropolis and Pacifica (and her destroyer escort Triton) and in GOIPZ we heard about Columbia being destroyed at the ambush.

A plausible theory for Solaria was that she was escorting the Star Kobol which was some distance ahead of the fleet and presumbly destroyed.

[Centurion Draco]

Star Kolbol was the Quarum of the 12's ceremonial ship...the peace accords were to be officially signed on it. She was not a Battlestar. We hashed this point out a few times over the years...in SOASW, you got to see the interior of it. That was where Adar said "I'd like to raise my chalice to you....." etc. There were only 5 Battlestars at Cimtar and one was not Star Kobol.


The Battlestars at Cimtar were: Atlantia, Galactica, Acropolis, Columbia and Pacifica (some people put the Solaria in that list and remove the Pacifica). Also, a ship named Triton was there, but she was a frigate or an escort of some sort which accompanied Pacifica...evidently.

We saw the Atlantia blow up, we say Galactica...obvisouly...we heard in the background dialog on Galactica's bridge about Acropolis and Pacifica (and her destroyer escort Triton) and in GOIPZ we heard about Columbia being destroyed at the ambush.

A plausible theory for Solaria was that she was escorting the Star Kobol which was some distance ahead of the fleet and presumbly destroyed.

The Quorum's ship, is the President's ship. Atlantia. Thats why, when the Cylons attack and Adar is called to the bridge, Baltar is initially still with him wispering lies in his ear.
Edit: In fact, the preceeding shot is the 'now on the Atlantia' shot of the zoom to the name on the hanger bay pod.

[BST]

Ever since I got the DVDs, and saw that bit with Serina, I've thought she said:

"...on the Star of Kobol..."

It would also make sense that the 'Star of Kobol' would a civ ship, though the Japanse did surender to the USA in 1945 on a US battleship, IIRC. Though that was a military surender, not a peace confrence.

Just this humble newbies opinon.:duck:


Raptor,

You are correct about the "Japanese surrender to the USA on a US battleship". That battleship was the USS Missouri.

http://www.hnsa.org/ships/missouri.htm