"Stealth Continuation?"-No Thank You!

[Eric Paddon]

Initially I was going to reply to the thread where John posted this but then I realized there is too much general criticism to merit its inclusion there so rather than risk violating forum rules I am making my comments on that subject in this forum. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, check that "Stealth Continuation" thread in the 2003 section.

To me, I hope Moore doesn't go anywhere near this because it would not be a pleasant development from my standpoint. Not only would this violate an integral part of TOS universe (the notion that Adama settles a planet other than Earth would totally ruin the whole point of receiving the Apollo XI signal at the end of Hand Of God and it would also violate the whole critical plot point of the SOL in WOTG giving the general coordinates for Earth) it would also represent a foray into the wrong kind of religous subtext for me. Galactica is a series whose strength (TOS) in terms of religious subtexts is its similarity to ideas drawn from a traditional Judeo-Christian framework and Judeo-Christian concepts of Good and Evil and faith. A Buddhist concept of religious thought being utilized to bring in TOS universe would not only be of zero interest to me, it would be as equally offensive to me from the standpoint of what TOS is supposed to embody.

For a person like me, Galactica's appeal on the religious level in TOS was how it appealed to a Judeo-Christian audience that has received very little respect in the annals of sci-fi television and to see it then invoked for a religious philosophy that like it or not is the not the majority religion for the society that Moore keeps trying to ape at every possible opportunity (contemporary America) says ultimately a lot more about a disrespect for the religious framework that was found in TOS, and which reflects the majority sentiment of contemporary America.

[Darth Marley]

I pity you for finding a Buddist depiction offensive.

I respectfully suggest that your reaction of "insult" to any depiction of religion that does not suit your personal beliefs greatly hampers your ability to evangelize.

If you are going to say in a public forum that you would find a Buddist interpretaion of a fictional story "offensive" but are going to wail and moan about "anti-religious" depictions, you should look to the beam in your own eye.

I find this particular post offensive for that reason.

[Eric Paddon]

I pity you for finding a Buddist depiction offensive.

I see no reason to apologize for seeing a show that was sympathetic to the Judeo-Christian perspective being potentially turned into one promoting the values of a competing religious viewpoint that is totally in opposition to that of the other one, and finding that ultimately to be an offensive comment on the Judeo-Christian tradition by the show's writers and producers. I would also register my displeasure if a film version of C.S. Lewis's books stripped them of their Christian subtexts in favor of Buddhist ones and since Galactica was a show that made generous use of a Judeo-Christian framework (Mormom specifically, but one that owes many aspects to the broader framework), why should I consider it positive when the idea of suddenly reintroducing religion to the Galactica framework is one done from a drastically different context?

"I respectfully suggest that your reaction of "insult" to any depiction of religion that does not suit your personal beliefs greatly hampers your ability to evangelize."

This has to do with changing something set in one universe that drew from one tradition and deciding instead to do another one instead. I do call that insulting from my perspective of one who enjoyed Galactica because it was a rare kind of show that dared to offer something sympathetic for someone of a Judeo-Christian background and if this plans on being turned into something different, especially in a show that goes out of its way to ape contemporary America, which is anything but Buddhist last time I checked, then ultimately what I'm seeing is the supreme arrogance of a man like Ron Moore who reflects the Hollywood mindset of contempt for the Judeo-Christian perspective.

"If you are going to say in a public forum that you would find a Buddist interpretaion of a fictional story "offensive" but are going to wail and moan about "anti-religious" depictions, you should look to the beam in your own eye."

Then I shall be blunt. My objection to "anti-religious" depictions has always referred entirely to depictions of a Judeo-Christian type tradition. Hollywood has never had any problem showing positive views of any religious tradition that is as far removed from that practiced by the majority of Western Civilization, and that to me has always indicated a prejudiced mindset that when it gets applied to this context, only means more of the same once again and a nice reminder of why TOS was a special island standing alone in a sea of traditional contempt for those of a Judeo-Christian perspective.

[Darth Marley]

Your words indicate that a Buddist interpretation would be offensive to you, and you have repeated that claim.

Just like you have "registered your displeasure" with the religious subtext of a show you don't watch, I have registered my displeasure with your bigoted comment. The difference is, I actually read your post.

I don't want to personalize this, but you have made a comment that I find offensive.

I don't have to look to Hollywood to find a negative depiction of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

[Eric Paddon]

It is not "bigoted" for me to express my displeasure over the fact that a slap at the values that TOS stood for, which included sympathy to a perspective that has been treated like dirt for too long by mainstream Hollywood, is suddenly to be turned into an occasion where any use of religion must now be done in the context of something as far removed from the Judeo-Christian tradition as it possibly can be done. I would fully understand a Buddhist's objection if a property aimed at his niche were turned into something different like promoting Christianity and if that person did protest, I can guarantee he would never be labeled a "bigot".

And I did read your post, and what I see in it is a nice example of how people of an anti-Judeo Christian mindset like to use their favorite buzz words rooted in PCdom to intimidate people of a Judeo-Christian mindset into silence from speaking their minds on an issue of concern to them.

[Darth Marley]

Again, you miss the point.
You read my post, but complain about a show that you don't watch.

Now you make it personal and directed at me, insisting that because I do not agree with you, I must have " an anti-Judeo Christian mindset ."

Are you psychic?

History tells us that popes of the time thought Luther and Calvin had an anti-Judeo Christian mindset .

[Eric Paddon]

"Again, you miss the point. You read my post, but complain about a show that you don't watch."

I registered my objection to a story and plot scenario someone else outlined, as well as their comments on what religious perspective was supposed to be offered by this potential storyline. And I expressed the view that if a show that at one time represented an oasis for those of a Judeo-Christian perspective (who see thier views trashed by more sci-fi properties and by Hollywood than I care to count) is suddenly going to be pushing a completely different religious philosophy then that is something that would offend me personally for the same reason that I am offended by the fact that a show property that once was more sympathetic to conservative perspectives now champions liberal ones in politics, sex, family etc. Those viewpoints of mine never earned me the label "bigot" because they are not bigoted, and the viewpoint I expressed is not "bigoted" either except in the minds of those who have a complaint with people who are of that background. Disagree with my POV if you like and I'll discuss it with you, but it isn't "bigoted" except in your vivid imagination.

"Now you make it personal"

Excuse me? You were the one who made this personal to begin with.

"and directed at me, insisting that because I do not agree with you, I must have " an anti-Judeo Christian mindset .""

If you're calling me a bigot for expressing concerns over how a show that once showed sympathy to a religious perspective I agree with and in this new version wants to go in a radically different direction (yet is set in a society that tries in all other ways to ape a society where the Judeo-Christian tradition is the dominant one), then I see no reason but to think you've got a serious problem with those of a Judeo-Christian perspective.

"History tells us that popes of the time thought Luther and Calvin had an anti-Judeo Christian mindset."

Martin Luther was the one who simply nailed his 95 theses to the door and called for a debate on something which was all I did when I made my post and registered my own opinion in which I thought was supposed to be an open forum. You OTOH, were the one who chose to react like the popes of the time with some name calling of your own aimed at me that was completely out of bounds.

[Darth Marley]

As I see it, your claim to take offense if TOS were retold through Buddist filter, simply bacause it was told through a Buddist filter is exactly as bigoted as saying a remake that featured an all black cast would be offensive simply because the cast was black.

I am not the one demanding orthodoxy here.

[Eric Paddon]

As I see it, your claim to take offense if TOS were retold through Buddist filter, simply bacause it was told through a Buddist filter is exactly as bigoted as saying a remake that featured an all black cast would be offensive simply because the cast was black.

I am not the one demanding orthodoxy here.

I am talking about a particular philosophical/religious perspective in the same way that I and others have in the past talked about their objections to TOS being retold through a different political filter (which is about ideas and beliefs) and nothing that involves racial composition of cast members, and there is a big difference in that and it doesn't involve any kind of "bigoted" sentiment at all.

[Darth Marley]

Since this has degenerated into another neverending Paddon thread, I'll just tell you I am done.

Your remarks, I find offensive. Your find something offensive about the new series. I guess we are even, though I am sure you will be true to form and try to get in the last word.

[Senmut]

I pity you for finding a Buddist depiction offensive.

I respectfully suggest that your reaction of "insult" to any depiction of religion that does not suit your personal beliefs greatly hampers your ability to evangelize.

If you are going to say in a public forum that you would find a Buddist interpretaion of a fictional story "offensive" but are going to wail and moan about "anti-religious" depictions, you should look to the beam in your own eye.

I find this particular post offensive for that reason.


He didn't say "Buddhism is offensive". He said so radically altering the entire subtext of the show was offensive. Imagine somone doing a contnuation/remake of say Kung-Fu, but entirely altering the religio-philosophical base? To anything else, doesn't matter what. It would NOT be the same, regardless of what title you put on it. Imagine someone taking Botticelli's Birth of Venus, or the Mona Lisa, and having some drunken pervert slobbering all over the lady's breasts, in the name of "artistic re-imagination"? By altering the whole matrix of BSG, one turns it into something it was not. To do that, and keep the name, would be offensive to me, from a dramatic and artistic stance. One need not be Xtian to find it so.

[Eric Paddon]

Thank you Senmut for grasping the root of the argument as I saw it. This involves staying faithful to the source material of the original and when you change it to another agenda then you are inviting criticism. And yes, if a Christian producer suddenly remade Kung Fu and turned David Carradine into a Christian convert, I sure as heck wouldn't call the Buddhist who wrote in to object a "bigot", I'd have to concede his point in the interests of consistentcy!

It seems though, that properties that reflected a perspective more sympathetic to a Judeo-Christian one are always fair game for this kind of Hollywood alteration (after all, Hollywood is the only place that could make a film biography of the 20th century's greatest Christian apologist, C.S. Lewis and then proceed to remove all the importance of religion from his life and his wife's which was the whole key to their relationship, in "Shadowlands").

[Darth Marley]

Senmut, the notion that Adama and the colonials were Christians is absurd.
The show was written by a Mormon, but the colonials were not Mormons, and were not Christian.
To suggest that portraying them as non-Christians is a departure from source material is an absurd fantasy.
It is a fictional work with a fictional religion.
The notion that if it had a Buddist filter rather than a Mormon filter it would be an insult to J/C values is something that I find offensive and bigoted.
To the extent that the original had a positive protrayal of religion, it does not specify what earthly religion that would be.
There is at least one comment in the original series "thank the gods" that is conveniently dismissed to assert unknowns about the religious beliefs of the colonials.
BSG is fiction.
It asserts that man originated "out there" rather than created here. A radical departure from J/C dogma.

To suggest that telling the tale from another religious filter would be offensive suggests that other religious views are inferior. That is what I find offensive.
As a personal belief, everyone is entitled to theirs, but I see it as taking a shot at another faith, and I am shocked that anyone would percieve that as polite discourse suited for a fandom board.

The colonials were not Jews, and were not Christians, no matter how much one wants to portray them as such.
Because of that, portraying them as something other than J/C derivatives cannot be a departure from source.

[Senmut]

Quote me where I said they were. Not once have I said this, in any of the various fora. Quote me.
You seem offended that I disagree with your "enlightened" view. I am sorry, but I stand my ground.

[Eric Paddon]

"Senmut, the notion that Adama and the colonials were Christians is absurd."

No one ever did say that. The argument has always been how TOS is sympathetic to those who come from a traditional Judeo-Christian perspective with a monotheistic view (referenced on more than one occasion in the series), a belief in the moral absolutes of Good and Evil and universal truth (which is a Judeo-Christian concept, not the pantheistic notions of Eastern religion), the reality of the Devil as a fallen angel (show me where Iblis does not fit into that tradition) and that the Holy Book is rooted in its telling of REAL events and not just good stories, which is why Adama is looking for Earth in the first place. Adama's view toward the teachings of his faith is ultimately the same as that of St. Paul toward the Resurrection. If what it says is not true, then all he believes in is in vain. Again, a perspective from the Judeo-Christian tradition of Western Civilization religion, having nothing to do with Eastern religion that TNS now shows signs of wanting to champion.

"To suggest that portraying them as non-Christians is a departure from source material is an absurd fantasy."

The absurd fantasy is the suggestion that the original series can not be appreciated through a Judeo-Christian lens in terms of its approach to religion, which requires disregarding all of the internal evidence within the series, as well as the framework placed on things by the show's creator.

"The notion that if it had a Buddist filter rather than a Mormon filter it would be an insult to J/C values is something that I find offensive and bigoted."

Why? It is a reality of life that Judeo-Christian concepts and Buddhist concepts are not compatible. That's just the way things are. It's not making a value judgment on a practicing Buddhist, it's noting how for a show with the name "Battlestar Galactica" it goes against the artistic integrity of the original to change it from one to the other, and in the process alienates those who appreciated the original because it was a show that chose to reflect positions compatible with Judeo-Christian thinking.

"To the extent that the original had a positive protrayal of religion, it does not specify what earthly religion that would be."

Not in terms of a specific denomination, but in terms of a cultural framework that point is as specific as you can get. It's the religious tradition of modern Western Civilization, which is the Judeo-Christian one rooted in monotheism, absolute Good vs. Evil, the Devil, a Holy Book that is seen as literal history and not a collection of wise sayings. That internal evidence can't be ignored.

"There is at least one comment in the original series "thank the gods" that is conveniently dismissed to assert unknowns about the religious beliefs of the colonials."

Which only shows that there is some religious diversity in Colonial culture but whenever it is Commander Adama or his family, of whom we know is a practitioner of the majority faith, the singular is always used. To reiterate:

"And there I was like God" (Adama-Saga)
"Under the eyes of God" (Adama-LPOTG, the Apollo-Serina sealing ceremony)
"Is Ravashol, God?" (Boxey-GOIPZ)
"Not even God?" (Adama-WOTG)

"It asserts that man originated "out there" rather than created here. A radical departure from J/C dogma."

And your problem is that you are starting from the false premise that in order for TOS to reflect a positive view of Judeo-Christian concepts it must perfectly parallel all aspects of deeper issues of doctrine, when all we have ever noted is how its positive portrayal is with regard to the general Judeo-Christian framework which can even exist in this set-up. Or are you now saying that Buddhism does not have to be perfectly paralleled in TNS framework? Sounds very inconsistent to me!

"To suggest that telling the tale from another religious filter would be offensive suggests that other religious views are inferior."

No, this is about showing fidelity and respect for the source material. The Kung-Fu example that's been cited already makes nonsense of your claim, so I think we can move off this sideshow. But all I can say is that if you think it's "bigoted" to object to this change in source material and emphasis, I think it's intellectually dishonest to say that TOS is not reflective of a general Judeo-Christian framework in how it presents religious institutions and traditions.

"As a personal belief, everyone is entitled to theirs, but I see it as taking a shot at another faith, and I am shocked that anyone would percieve that as polite discourse suited for a fandom board."

So in other words, Ron Moore can promote Buddhism in TNS and no one who enjoyed TOS because of how it stood for another perspective can say anything about that? That sounds more like trying to intimidate people from expressing themselves openly in a forum on a legit POV that is related to previous debates on the change in Galactica's political philosophy and other things advanced by Moore that many TOS fans have objected to. In that context, the religious issue is fair game for that as well.

[Darth Marley]

I don't get your reaction.
You are saying that you understand EP's complaint, and see his remarks as justified.
If the colonials are not a J/C culture, then telling the story from a non-J/C religious filter cannot be a depature.

I am shocked that so many lines have been devoted to this.

Go ahead, stand your ground, I don't find fault with you for that.

The bit about "enlightened" view in quotes, is this another covert slam at Buddism?

[BST]

Rule #1: All members will be treated with respect. There will be no insults or derogatory statements made towards any person or group of people – under any circumstances. If you disagree with an opinion, fine, say so and treat the conversation as if it were face-to-face. But don’t attack. You’ll find yourself on the outside looking in really, really quick if you ignore this rule.


First thing I see, this morning, is this thread. Heck of a way to start the day!

:(

Let's recall the title of this particular sub-forum and also, let's recall what is bolded above.

:)

I WILL re-visit this thread, after work.




BST

[martok2112]

First off....I will second BST's directive and admonition on this.

Now, having said this....I will throw in my two cents in the interests of keeping the peace.


In no case of either the original show, or the new Battlestar Galactica are the religions depicted as Christian. I agree with Eric's assessment that the original show appealed to Judeo-Christian values...without being Christian. That it was a beauty at the time that it so positively portrayed an appelant to Judeo-Christians, when much of the time, yes Hollywood does tend to paint Judeo-Christianity with a very ill-colored, and broad paintbrush..

However, I am not ready to pronounce that the new Battlestar Galactica expresses Buddhist views. I have also heard monotheistic callings of the Lord in the miniseries, and I'm pretty sure in the first episode. I will be the first to confess however that Laura Roslin's swearing in as president lacking the words "..so help me God." seems to smack of PC'dom. However, it is also quite possible that in their Colonial society, it just never occurred to them to conclude such a swearing in, or other such official ceremonies with "so help me God" or any invocation of the Lord's name. (I cannot speak authoritatively on other eps, as I have not seen them yet.)

If anything, BOTH Battlestars Galactica depict diverse religious beliefs. In the original Battlestar Galactica, the Gemonese came across to me as polytheistic, while Capricans (mostly embodied through Adama) seemed to express monotheistic faith.

In the new Battlestar Galactica, the Colonials do seem to ground their faith more in the Lords of Kobol...and that is a much more common faith expressed among all the tribes. As I understand it, (from some spoilers I have unfortunately read) the show seems to be moving more toward the monotheistic nature (and perhaps even Judeo-Christian appelants) that made the original show so special to many people's hearts....including mine.

However, just as I cannot entirely base my judgments on hearsay, and cannot authoritatively say whether that is so...neither can someone honestly base their judgments on synopses and hearsay (especially from anti-TNS biased points of view). The only true way for anyone to draw a conclusion is to watch the show...and confirm or deny those sentiments.



Respectfully,
Martok2112

[Antelope]

TOS can be most understood if one realizes that a significant part of the show reflects MORMON philosophy. Depending on your view of Mormonism this is either part of the Judeo-Christian philosophy or a radical departure and hardly related. The show starts with reference to the Toltecs and Mayans. We see reference to Egyptian motifs and Greek background. It would seem to me that TOS implies that the ancient religions of Earth as practiced in Egypt, the Greek world, and the New World are related to society on Kobol. Buddhism is a contemporary of those other eligions and should also therefor be related to Kobol in a TOS universe. All ancient religions and myths would in my opinion be open to portrayal in either TOS or TNS and be fully compatible with the theme of the show.

On Adama stopping and not finding Earth: This is also fully compatible with TOS. We have no idea what the colonist would do in the future, how long Adama would continue to lead the colonist (he wasn't young) and what their physical situation became. BOTH CONTINUATION efforts that almost made it to the screen were based on the idea that the fleet DID NOT reach Earth and finally settled elsewhere.

I personally believe they should go to Earth but my personal view does not mean they can't settle somewhere else. If I was a real civilian in the fleet in TOS cramped on a Colonial Moving ship the voyage to Earth for me would have ended at Terra or I would have rioted. I doubt the average colonist is willing to make a multi-generation quest if they pass Earthlike planets on the way and haven't seen a cylon in years.

[Dawg]

Larson & Co. blended aspects of many religious symbologies, if you will, into a cohesive foundation that suggested that the people of Earth descended from the same roots as the 12 Colonies (remember, too, that the 'ancient astronaut' theories were widely popular at the time). Given his own devotion to the LDS church, many specific rituals and concepts of the Colonial religion came from there - but it was not a Christian faith as depicted. It espoused many of the same basic beliefs, certainly, as all those religions that emerged from the Middle East. One God, for primary example.

Not so the Colonial religion of nuBSG. In another thread here someone copied some of the phrases out of the writer's bible, and one passage was about the Colonial religion - a polytheism. This means more than one God. For example, the Hindu, if I'm not mistaken, practice a polytheism containing a number of gods.

This is, indeed, a complete refutation of the basis of the original.

But I liken the nuBSG Colonials' religion to be more like Shintoism than Bhuddism. The practitioners of Shintoism worship their ancestors, not a single (or multiple) diety; their departed ancestors are gods. If the nuBSG 'Lords of Kobol' are acknowledged as ancestors, anyway.

However, the point is that the religious portrayals in nuBSG are so totally different than the religious subtext of osBSG that it is likely that some of the more 'Fundamental Christian' of our brethren are likely to take offense at it - and some of the less religious but still devoted osBSG fans will point to it and say that it is but another example of the utter lack of respect they have for the original material.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[martok2112]

For example, the Hindu, if I'm not mistaken, practice a polytheism containing a number of gods.



I am
Dawg
:warrior:


(doing best Apu impersonation)

Are there days when you feel like you've been 8!TCHslapped by a six-armed goddess? :D

Irreverently,
Martok2112

[Eric Paddon]

Martok, I will agree with you that I may ultimately be guilty of only judging a potential hypothetical that could happen in TNS. I had thought that my initial post's qualifier of "if this should happen" should have covered that, but I think on further thought some reiterating of that on my part on more than one occasion should have been done.

I do appreciate what you say regarding what TOS did. I saw it as being diverse in terms of what people believed (and that it was not a theocratic structure of no diversity and intoleranceas those like John Kenneth Muir tried to sugest in his book) but that it also amidst that diversity was making a statement as to which side represented the "true" one in this particular universe.

To Antelope, I will not dispute the fact that the Mormon elements that are blatant can't be ignored. This is why when I write a fanfic story I do not eliminate the items drawn from Mormon ceremony and tradition even though no one will ever confuse my personal beliefs with sympathy for Mormon doctrine itself. That respect for where Galactica comes from is what I try to follow and that I can't turn it into a perfect clone of my own views (even though I like to think the door is open enough for them to be harmonized within the existing framework because the show starts from that framework of a Judeo-Christian "filter").

And I regret deeply the fact that a free-for-all erupted over this. This coincided with a stressful moment on another Galactica list I've been part of for seven years and it left me feeling in a more combative frame of mind.

[Antelope]

Not so the Colonial religion of nuBSG. In another thread here someone copied some of the phrases out of the writer's bible, and one passage was about the Colonial religion - a polytheism. This means more than one God. For example, the Hindu, if I'm not mistaken, practice a polytheism containing a number of gods.

This is, indeed, a complete refutation of the basis of the original.

But I liken the nuBSG Colonials' religion to be more like Shintoism than Bhuddism. The practitioners of Shintoism worship their ancestors, not a single (or multiple) diety; their departed ancestors are gods. If the nuBSG 'Lords of Kobol' are acknowledged as ancestors, anyway.

However, the point is that the religious portrayals in nuBSG are so totally different than the religious subtext of osBSG that it is likely that some of the more 'Fundamental Christian' of our brethren are likely to take offense at it - and some of the less religious but still devoted osBSG fans will point to it and say that it is but another example of the utter lack of respect they have for the original material.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

This is a rare time I think you miss the mark on TOS.

In other discussions of TOS I have seen that many TOS fans seem to think that TOS is a polytheistic society and that the "Lords of Kobol" represent that fact. Also the beings of light imply that man may evolve himself into an angelic or God-like being. Iblis himself (Satan) is just an advanced but limited being. Depending on how you view TOS I have seen where people think it is either monotheistic, polytheistic, or atheistic. All of these views are compatible with an individuals belief system depending on how you interpret what is said. This may definitely be fans seeing what they want to see.

We also see in TOS that although we primarily see Adama's (Caprica's?) Mormon type religion that the colonies had an array of religious thought, much of which is alien to those not from their colonies, reference things like Cassiopia's treatment and the Noman situation.

Religion as practiced on TNS Galactica thus far reflects Grecco-Roman themes. The one scene with Kara praying is very similar to a scene from the pre-Christian Roman themed Gladiator. As the show progresses these themes deepen to include various Greek religious place names. Helo and Boomer are headed to Delphi (Greek temple in our history where Apollo hands down knowledge). Later episode involves "Temple of Apollo" on Kobol. The prophetic part of the story is a theme we see time and again in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

I think fundamentalist Christians could have issue with TNS but except those who want to see what they want to see they should have equally been appalled at TOS (unless you are a fundamentalist Mormon).

If anything at this point the TNS religious depiction appears more closely linked to the ancient Western religions than TOS which is more closely related to a relatively young offshoot of Christianity. Since Kobol should be the origin of both colonial and Earth religions at this early point TNS is more compatible with our earliest religious understanding.

[Eric Paddon]

"In other discussions of TOS I have seen that many TOS fans seem to think that TOS is a polytheistic society and that the "Lords of Kobol" represent that fact."

Except that they'd be wrong, because the four Adama references that have been cited should settle that question once and for all and render further discussion of it moot.

"Also the beings of light imply that man may evolve himself into an angelic or God-like being. Iblis himself (Satan) is just an advanced but limited being."

So too is Satan in the realm of Judeo-Christian tradition. Even he ultimately has his limits to what he can do (the book of Job).

"I think fundamentalist Christians could have issue with TNS but except those who want to see what they want to see they should have equally been appalled at TOS (unless you are a fundamentalist Mormon)."

You have not made the case that there is anything for traditional Christian to be "appalled" by in TOS (other than the more hardline aspects of Mormon doctrine that are not stressed more frequently than those aspects of Mormonism that owe itself to the traditional common Judeo-Christian framework). That's the problem I have with your arguments on this point.

[Dawg]

Actually, Antelope, those who think TOS represented a polytheistic society are mistaken. Yes, the characters repeatedly referred to the Lords of Kobol delivering blessings - but so do the saints of the Roman Catholic Church.

On more than one occassion, as previously noted, Adama references "God and the Lords of Kobol". I have never taken the BSG title "Lord" to be an indication of diety, but rather the equivalent to 'saint' or 'angel'.

So you see, my friend, I didn't miss the mark at all.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[peter noble]

Oh for Sagan's sake! © Lt. Starbuck ;)

Peter

[Antelope]

Actually, Antelope, those who think TOS represented a polytheistic society are mistaken. Yes, the characters repeatedly referred to the Lords of Kobol delivering blessings - but so do the saints of the Roman Catholic Church.

On more than one occassion, as previously noted, Adama references "God and the Lords of Kobol". I have never taken the BSG title "Lord" to be an indication of diety, but rather the equivalent to 'saint' or 'angel'.

So you see, my friend, I didn't miss the mark at all.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

Here's where religion gets tricky:

Those who are not devout Christians sometimes make the point that "Christianity" as practiced itself is not a monotheistic religion. This is hard for those to understand unless you can take a step back out of your faith (not directed at you just trying to make my point). Although Christianity is supposedly montheistic it believes in a trinity of the all powerful God and a large pantheon of saints or other beings superior to man that can intercede with God on mans behalf. Western religion prior to Christianity had a powerful god, Zeus or Jupiter followed by a series of lesser gods for specific purposes. Modern Christianity, especially Catholism basically did the same thing replacing Zeus with God the father and established a pantheon of saints to replace the individual lesser gods. Even our concept of Jesus fits well into the pre-Christian Hercules cults. A person can therefor look at our current religion and see a polytheistic world. In the same way a person could look at TOS and interpret the show as either polytheistic with the Lord's of Kobol in a situation similar to the lesser gods of Greek time and the saints of Christianity or just as well view TOS as denying God altogether by showing the beings of light and Iblis to be nothing more than evolutionarily advanced physical beings with advanced technology falsly worshiped as gods, angels, or devils.

In the case of TOS I really think whether you think it is polytheism, monotheism, atheism or some combination therein is in the eye of the beholder and all these views are legitimate based on the episodes. It is one of TOS's strengths that it can simultaneously strengthen the beliefs of the individual viewers even though these viewers may hold opposite religious views. TOS therefor is a life affirming show to a broad base of religious and non-religious people.

[Antelope]

Oh for Sagan's sake! © Lt. Starbuck ;)

Peter

There was once a thread that seemed devoted to that saying. I think it was stated that it was written in as a homage to Carl Sagan but a point was made that by accident it could be taken that God to the colonials may be named Sagan. :D

[Dawg]

Oh, for Pete's sake.

:blink:

God's name is Pete?

:blink:

;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Antelope]

Oh, for Pete's sake.

:blink:

God's name is Pete?

:blink:

;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

I think on that same thread I referenced someone brought up "Pete" also and that it was a derivation from St. Peter. Maybe Sagan isn't the name of the colonial God but the name of his right hand man guarding the pearly gates. ;) :LOL:

[thomas7g]

I thought it was BST.

:)

[Darth Marley]

The Kung-Fu example that's been cited already makes nonsense of your claim, so I think we can move off this sideshow.

Taoism is not a fictional religion.
The religion of the colonials is a fictional religion.

It is not nonsense, any more so than the claim that the colonials were monotheists.

[Eric Paddon]

If the argument is being made that because TOS religion is "fictional" then since TNS would be "Buddhist" lens is therefore "fictional" as well, then that's another reason why you have no basis to object to my initial criticism.

[Gemini1999]

Just in case I missed it earlier on -

I wonder how the Greek/Roman "Gods" figure into the religion of TNS. There have been references to Apollo and Athena - I wonder if they are supposed to be names of the "lords" of Kobol, or what...

Best,
Bryan

[Antelope]

Just in case I missed it earlier on -

I wonder how the Greek/Roman "Gods" figure into the religion of TNS. There have been references to Apollo and Athena - I wonder if they are supposed to be names of the "lords" of Kobol, or what...

Best,
Bryan

It is starting to look like either they worshiped the Greek pantheon or the Greek pantheon is based on real people who were the "Lord's of Kobol".

Current anthropolgist are considering the real possibility that the Greek "gods" and mythical places were in fact the names of ancient kings, kingdoms, and other major early figures from their prehistory. It looks like TNS is moving in this direction. Wait until Kobols Last Gleaming...

[Gemini1999]

It is starting to look like either they worshiped the Greek pantheon or the Greek pantheon is based on real people who were the "Lord's of Kobol".

Current anthropolgist are considering the real possibility that the Greek "gods" and mythical places were in fact the names of ancient kings, kingdoms, and other major early figures from their prehistory. It looks like TNS is moving in this direction. Wait until Kobols Last Gleaming...

Antelope -

That episode is where I got the Apollo and Athena references. The Arrow of Apollo and the Temple of Athena. Another interesting reference is where the preistess tells that "the Gods and the people of Kobol lived together in paradise". I'm very interested to find out about more of the TNS interpretation of life on Kobol before the exodus to the Colonies.

Best,
Bryan

[Antelope]

Antelope -

That episode is where I got the Apollo and Athena references. The Arrow of Apollo and the Temple of Athena. Another interesting reference is where the preistess tells that "the Gods and the people of Kobol lived together in paradise". I'm very interested to find out about more of the TNS interpretation of life on Kobol before the exodus to the Colonies.

Best,
Bryan

I find this all very interesting also. I have read a few things that show that a lot of things in TNS are overlaid on Greek mythology, colonial and cylon. I think we are going to learn a lot about their ancient society and religion. They are discovering their roots. The same way Adama was trying in TOS. I find it interesting that Baltar in TOS says Earth is a myth, while we are led to believe TNS Adama has that same opinion.

Delphi is referenced in the Helo/Boomer Caprica subplot. Again we see references to the ancient Greek religion.

One thing I ponder in this reference, in Greek mythology Illysium Fields was not a spiritual place like our heaven. In antiquity it was believed to be far to the West on an island across the sea where the soul went to upon death. It was a physical location. I wonder if Moore was thinking about this when he came up with the cylon concept of the transmigration of the soul to a real physical place just as the Greeks expected in antiquity.

The gods of ancient Greece could physically move in the world of man. We are filled with stories of their half human offspring and interaction directly between the gods and man in a real physical sense.

[peter noble]

I'd go with Antelope's take on TOS' depitiction of religion being in the eye of the beholder, his reasoning was pretty much faultless IMO.

Peter ("The Rock")

[Darth Marley]

If the argument is being made that because TOS religion is "fictional" then since TNS would be "Buddhist" lens is therefore "fictional" as well, then that's another reason why you have no basis to object to my initial criticism.

This is gibberish.
No one has claimed BSG has a Buddist lens. Neither version has a Buddist or a Christian lens.

I don't object to your personal beliefs, or interpretations of a tv show, or your own religion.

Simply put, you make it sound like non-J/C faiths are inferior by definition.
Rather than simply say that you did not mean to infer this, you try to build a case for making such a claim.
While it is ok to believe this, it is downright rude to say so.

If I were open about my religious views, you would indeed likely be offended.

For the record, I am entitled to object to any criticism, yours or others. I don't need your blessing for that.

[BST]

A Buddhist concept of religious thought being utilized to bring in TOS universe would not only be of zero interest to me, it would be as equally offensive to me from the standpoint of what TOS is supposed to embody.



Now that I've had a chance to properly read through this thread, kindly explain how the above quote says that "a Buddhist concept" is offensive in and of itself. If one reads the entire quote, the clarification is very much apparent by the following - "from the standpoint of what TOS is supposed to embody".

I would be equally resentful.

If Moore wants to provide a back-story to the religious concepts of his show then, more power to him. It's HIS show. Just leave TOS alone!

Can't this so-called miracle worker of science-fiction genre come up with ideas without re-writing another person's work?

This bullfelgercarb is really starting to irk the H*** out of me.

BST
:mad:

[BST]

In other discussions of TOS I have seen that many TOS fans seem to think that TOS is a polytheistic society and that the "Lords of Kobol" represent that fact. Also the beings of light imply that man may evolve himself into an angelic or God-like being.



Yes, this HAS been discussed before. IIRC, I posted an observation. Does anyone else see it this way?

I view the "Lords of Kobol" are real beings, not gods. In other words, "Lord" as in Ruler, not "Lord" as in Deity. In addition, Colonial society could have mirrored present-day Earth with respect to having multiple religious doctrines. The primary doctrine, to which we were exposed, was that of Caprica (via Adama). There was a recognition, on multiple occasions, as illustrated by Eric on a previous post, where God was referred to in the singular. This could have been peculiar to the religion of the Caprican colonists or could have been shared by members of other Colonies. Also, "Adama's religion" could have merely been the predominant religion of the Colonies with a multitude of other religious groups and/or non-religious groups, just as we have on Earth. We'll just never know for sure, as of this writing.

Just some thoughts.

BST

[Senmut]

I
The bit about "enlightened" view in quotes, is this another covert slam at Buddism?


Obviously, you are hypersensitive. I do not make covert slams; I do it straight out and in the face. Were I going to do so, I would have plainly done so.
What I was referring to was your often elitist tone when responding to those with whom you take umbrage. I don't mind being disagreed with, but I could certainly do without the lecturesque tone of many of your responses.
That being said, who the frack is buying the next round of ambrosia?

[Gemini1999]

Obviously, you are hypersensitive. I do not make covert slams; I do it straight out and in the face. Were I going to do so, I would have plainly done so.
What I was referring to was your often elitist tone when responding to those with whom you take umbrage. I don't mind being disagreed with, but I could certainly do without the lecturesque tone of many of your responses.
That being said, who the frack is buying the next round of ambrosia?

Okay people....

I know that the Criticicm thread is a lightly moderated zone, but the only criticisms that are allowed in this thread are concerning either version of Battlestar Galactica.

When people start criticizing one another, that's the end of the discussion in a pubic manner. If anyone has a problem with an individual, their views, opinions, or anything else, you are quite welcome to do so, but not on the forum.

This stops here and now....

Sincerely,

Gemini1999
Colonial Fleets Moderator

[Darrell Lawrence]

Who believed in what...

From the intro: Aztecs, Toltecs, Mayans, Atlanteans, Egyptians- Multi gods.
From writer style for Adama and family- Mormon style rituals, One God.

I haven't seen enough of nuBG to say what the colonists religious hints are, but from reading this thread, it sounds multi gods as well.
The nuCylons appear to look to one "god".

The only singular god referrences in osBG seemed to have been Adama and his families beliefs. I don't recall Sheba, Boomer, Cassie, etc ever referrencing to any particular "religion" belief style.

I could be wrong. My memory is not what it once was... if I had a memory in the first place! I don't recall! :D

[martok2112]

Who believed in what...

From the intro: Aztecs, Toltecs, Mayans, Atlanteans, Egyptians- Multi gods.
From writer style for Adama and family- Mormon style rituals, One God.

I haven't seen enough of nuBG to say what the colonists religious hints are, but from reading this thread, it sounds multi gods as well.
The nuCylons appear to look to one "god".

The only singular god referrences in osBG seemed to have been Adama and his families beliefs. I don't recall Sheba, Boomer, Cassie, etc ever referrencing to any particular "religion" belief style.

I could be wrong. My memory is not what it once was... if I had a memory in the first place! I don't recall! :D


Where did you last leave your memory, Warrior? :D

Irreverently,
Martok2112

[Antelope]

Last night I watched the Bastille Day episode of TNS. The words of Tom Zarek to Apollo was very revealing about what the colonial religion (at least the the dominant one we are being exposed to) in TNS is. Their religion is pretty similar to the ancient Greek religion. Tom Zarek referred to Apollo being named after the GOD and LORD OF KOBOL, Apollo. He then referred to Apollo being the son of God, Zeus. He later said something like, Zeus is calling when he was referring to Apollo's father William Adama. It would appear that the "gods" of the TNS colonials were once considered to have been living among them in the physical world, again like Greek mythology.

During that episode two things of real significance occurred to me that makes me consider what is really going on:

First the religious interchange between Zarek and Apollo seemed to be beyond the level of mocking. It seemed as if Zarek had some insight into who Apollo is and that Lee Adama was not ready yet to accept his destiny. If time repeats it may well be that Lee Adama is , was, and will be Apollo, a Lord of Kobol.

On three occasions Lee Adama was told he would have to "choose sides". I think this is again in reference to a greater conflict than what we are seeing at episode level. I think these questions repeated bring into question who or what William Adama, Roslyn, and Zarek really are. I think like in TOS we are seeing the groundwork for the eventual main theme that the cylon-colonial conflict is just a facet of a much larger conflict among who or whatever are the gods of antiquity.

I will repost this in the episode review but I think this is very germane to this thread in particular what Gemini and I were talking about earlier.

[nextceo]

Against my better judgement I'll wade in here.....

Who gives a flying frack!!!!! I'm sorry but we waste so much time worrying about what religious overtones are being made on a Sci-Fi TV show.... I always felt there was a both a monotheistic and a polythiestic overtone to TOS... TNS the Colonials obviously are polythiestic, Cylons are monotheistic. Does this all really matter? Its a TV show! Where is everyone screaming about the lack entirely of religion in both Stargate series, or virtually any Sci-Fi series today. I give RDM credit for including discussion of religion at all in TNS, he could have totally left it alone, but it is a significant subtext in the show. Why are we so worried if something is J/C or Buddhist, or whatever? I'm a very active Roman Catholic Christian, but I don't expect all of my programming needs to have that overtone.

RDM isn't trying to push any type of relgious agenda from what I can tell, and I have WATCHED all 12 episodes so far. He is attempting to create a type of religion for humans from another STAR SYSTEM that may be related to some of our ancient religions to create a tie between Earth and the Colonials. Same thing that Larson did in TOS in a slightly different way. I don't think anyone is attempting to evangelize anyone with anything, Larson or RDM, they are just trying to create an interesting back story.

It just really pisses me off that people can make all kinds of comments and suggestions about a show they have never even WATCHED. Eric, all respects to your comments, I can feel your pain, but come on, are you even watching the show????? It would be like me trying to comment on Christianity if I was a Buddhist, strictly off of what I had read in second hand accounts. It just doesn't work. If people hate Christianity, they will hate Christianity no matter what the truth may be. Just like some may hate TNS, they always will, so why try to bring everyone down who does enjoy it? Just my two cubits! :Nsalute: :salute:

[repcisg]

Good golly Miss Molly!

[nextceo]

If Moore wants to provide a back-story to the religious concepts of his show then, more power to him. It's HIS show. Just leave TOS alone!

Can't this so-called miracle worker of science-fiction genre come up with ideas without re-writing another person's work?



So Desanto's continuation was stealing from Larsons original work as well. So what is your point? You can't have it both ways, it is supposed to be a remake of BSG, thus it will need to take things from the original show with some changes put in. Either RDM takes to much from TOS or not enough... I guess you can never make everyone happy. :Nsmilie:

Edit: fixed missing quote tag.

[nextceo]

Oh and another thing!!!! BWAHAHAHAAHA... Okay I'm calm now! HEHEEHEHE :LOL:

[Eric Paddon]

"Who gives a flying frack!!!!!"

I do. I grew up as a fan of TOS and stayed a fan because it happens to be the only sci-fi TV show I know of, let alone one of the few examples of popular entertainment where I can see a treatment of religon sympathetic to that of a Judeo-Christian perspective on many things. Those of us who see Hollywood as a community that is typically condescending and vindictive toward that perspective, often have very few things that we can embrace as our own, and for me at least, Galactica was one nice example I could point to, and when the matter comes up of this property being reimagined to promote a different religious subtext, especially if it were to potentially involve some tying together with TOS, then that is something I have legit cause to object to because it comes off ultimately not just as showing further disrespect for the source material but on another level the same old, same old Hollywood attitude of pushing any religious subtext that is as far afield from the one practiced by the majority of people in Western Civilization.

"I'm sorry but we waste so much time worrying about what religious overtones are being made on a Sci-Fi TV show."

When there's a consistent pattern in sci-fi of showing disdain for the religious values of Judeo-Christian civilization, it is a legit issue.

"TNS the Colonials obviously are polythiestic, Cylons are monotheistic. Does this all really matter?"

It does when TOS stood for something different. Maybe someone who has the view that all religions are equal in terms of what they represent can make the argument you're making but that doesn't fly with someone from my perspective.

"Where is everyone screaming about the lack entirely of religion in both Stargate series, or virtually any Sci-Fi series today."

I don't give a flying fig about other sci-fi series, most of which I can usually count on to reflect the similar negative view of a Judeo-Christian type religion. Let's stick to Galactica, and the matter of how this show is being changed in another way from it's origins that doesn't sit well with someone who liked TOS for this reason among other things.

"He is attempting to create a type of religion for humans from another STAR SYSTEM "

I'm sorry but if he's going to ape contemporary America at every possible turn in terms of creating Colonial society, then it seems to me that the least he can do is have his Colonial society practice a religion more true to that society and polytheism isn't it, (let alone not being true to the kind of religion practiced by the mainstream of TOS).

"It just really pisses me off that people can make all kinds of comments and suggestions about a show they have never even WATCHED."

This has to do with my comments on what someone else shared about a potential direction TNS was going in, and that made it fair game for me to offer my views on that comment in the "Stealth" thread. Am I supposed to sit on my hands and not say anything when that description of where this series is potentially going is made fair game for all of us to read?

"If people hate Christianity, they will hate Christianity"

And as I see it, Hollywood's hatred of Christianity and the Judeo-Christian tradition has long been the kind of thing about popular entertainment that keeps me away from all forms of it, and the last thing I want to see or accept meekly is the idea of a property called "Battlestar Galactica" being reimagined from a concept that bucked the trend and was sympathetic to the Judeo-Christian perspective of the universe into something that reflects a radically different mindset. I would never feel this way about a purely original property that decided to use Buddhism for its subtext, but the bottom line remains that TNS will *never* be a completely original property and it's because of that, that it becomes a lot easier to feel a sense of anger over the fundamental changes that have been made.

[BST]

If Moore wants to provide a back-story to the religious concepts of his show then, more power to him. It's HIS show. Just leave TOS alone!

Can't this so-called miracle worker of science-fiction genre come up with ideas without re-writing another person's work?



So Desanto's continuation was stealing from Larsons original work as well. So what is your point? You can't have it both ways, it is supposed to be a remake of BSG, thus it will need to take things from the original show with some changes put in. Either RDM takes to much from TOS or not enough... I guess you can never make everyone happy. :Nsmilie:

Edit: fixed missing quote tag.


nextceo,

No offense and with all due respect, did you think about that statement before you typed it? If a person is doing a Continuation, he or she will NEED to use elements from the Original source material, in order to provide continuity.

With respect to Moore's work, he has "reset the clock" back to the beginning. His IS the original source material, with regards to TNS. In addition, considering his and Eick's boasts about this show being a "reinvention of the genre", why bother going back to TOS for anything? My question was a matter of questioning Moore's creativity in terms of providing his OWN backstory for the various elements in TNS. I admit to thinking that this entire idea of linking the 2 shows is so incredibly far-fetched that it pushes the limits of believability. On the other hand, why would there even be consideration, by the PTB, of linking TOS and TNS? Do they consider that a nod to TOS Traditionalists? Or, are they using every method possible to rein in those so-called "few in number" die-hards?

BST

[repcisg]

Phew!!!!

[BST]

Oh, for Pete's sake.

:blink:

God's name is Pete?

:blink:



I thought it was BST.

:)


'Bout dang time someone recognized that! :D :LOL:

:rotf:

[peter noble]

Phew!!!!

I second that.

[Senmut]

Pardon me being so thick, but why is this thread called "Stealth"?

[martok2112]

Senmut,

Eric began this thread as a response to another thread appparently called "Stealth Continuation" elsehwhere on this board.

But, because what he had to write would basically come down more as a criticism of the new show, and not necessarily a glowing response to the original Stealth Continuation thread, he felt that the Criticisms forum would be the most appropriate place to post this.

And for that, I applaud his forethoght. :)

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[Darrell Lawrence]

So Desanto's continuation was stealing from Larsons original work as well. So what is your point? You can't have it both ways, it is supposed to be a remake of BSG, thus it will need to take things from the original show with some changes put in. Either RDM takes to much from TOS or not enough... I guess you can never make everyone happy. :Nsmilie:

Edit: fixed missing quote tag.

Take the blinders off ;)

nuBG isn't a remake (that'd follow the SAME story)

nuBG is a re-imagining, thus is something enterily new. A different version.

A different version would need to have different versions of everything the original had.

[thomas7g]

To be honest Darrell, I can hardly call this a reimagining. That implies some similarity with the original.

This is a totally different creature. So unbelievably different. Some ideas have been reused. But its a completely different animal.

I mentioned in another thread that this show feels more like Law And Order than Battlestar Galactica.

:D

[Darrell Lawrence]

To be honest Darrell, I can hardly call this a reimagining. That implies some similarity with the original.

This is a totally different creature. So unbelievably different. Some ideas have been reused. But its a completely different animal.

Isn't that basically what I said?


nuBG is a re-imagining, thus is something entirely new. A different version.

A different version would need to have different versions of everything the original had.

[thomas7g]

oh I agree with you.

I was just saying this is so extreme a change, its practically at the point where we can't call it "reimagining"

:)

[jewels]

It has something to do with another thread that was talked about 3 pages ago....in the first post. ::edit: as usual got distracted with the family and Martok answered whoever's question while I was collecting my rather scattered thoughts::

For TOS I see many references to Earth's ancient religions, a journey that parallels Exodus with the remnant wandering in search of the "promised land" (something I'm told that plays well with Mormon theology too.) I see references to ancient pagan religion, most notably the Otori sect of the Gemonese in Saga. I do think, because the Capricans were most prominent in the series that the show did evidence J/C values and that in the 1970's that all of these things were a way to give the audience the feeling of "these people might really be brothers of man in space". For me every aspect portrayed enhanced that otherwordly but not unlike us premise which the episode prologue so eloquently encapsulated.

To Eric's criticism that this could be yet another attack on J/C values by Hollywood. I do think you have a valid concern. J/C values are not well-protrayed in general in Hollywood, this production is led by a Trek alum, and Trek is notoriously unfriendly to religion and Christianity more specifically. The likelyhood that this will be yet another insult to those that liked the respect that faith was given in TOS, is definitely something we could be concerned about. I don't think they could have as much sex as was in the mini and pull off indicating these were anything but Epicureans (the "Party today for tomorrow we die" philosophy folks, if I didn't get the label correct) which permeate so much of TV. I see the value difference rub in that the characters started off much more amoral than most of the TOS characters. (Some would say that Starbuck was amoral in TOS but he does still value the lives of other humans, take responsibility for those younger, less skilled warriors under him and watch out for the feelings or safety of children (Boxey, the YL kids), all values that could trace back to J/C belief systems.)

I can't predict whether this will go good or badly but I do think TNS is going to fall into line with the more pluralistic beliefs that permeate our current society, not so much out of slamming J/C beliefs intentionally. I think that the pluralism will be part of it because the underlying intent of the show is to mirror Moore's and Hollywood's view of our society in this fictious society in space. Eric's correct on current Hollywood's unease about handling anything of J/C values well. (I do think Joan of Arcadia takes some steps the right way, with dramatic license of course. But it's the only example I can think of currently. Touched by an Angel was probably as close as anyone on network TV will ever get, but Martha Williamson still gets my kudos for some of the truths she snuck under the PC radar.)

Someone said some interesting stuff about what archeologists think about the original Greek gods' origin in this thread. It will be interesting to see how the tidbits dropped by Zarek will play out in light of some of the hints that are coming over from across the pond about ep. 12 and 13.

[nextceo]

"It just really pisses me off that people can make all kinds of comments and suggestions about a show they have never even WATCHED."

This has to do with my comments on what someone else shared about a potential direction TNS was going in, and that made it fair game for me to offer my views on that comment in the "Stealth" thread. Am I supposed to sit on my hands and not say anything when that description of where this series is potentially going is made fair game for all of us to read?



No you don't have to sit on your hands, but to me its the same as some TNS fans who rip on TOS based on their recolections or watching one episode and applying that to the entire production. If you watched the show you'd see its not :LOL: "buddhist". I personally just get very irritated by people who have to make all these opinions known on something when they personally have not experienced it themselves.

Again, the shows are in the eyes of the beholders as when I watch TOS, I see it no more judeo - christian than TNS, and never did.

BTW, in regards to my statement about it being a reimagining, well that is what it is. A reimaging not a complete change. If it was a complete change it wouldn't be called BSG, thus the production staff are going to take some things and ideas from TOS, it would be stupid if they didn't. If they didn't go back to TOS for anything you wouldn't call it BSG, which is what they are being PAID to do, reimagine BSG not eliminate it. Take the best in their opinion and leave the rest. What don't people understand about that???
:wtf:

[Fragmentary]

This thread really demonstrates the myopic view people create for something that they’ve seen again and again. It’s so clear that some people have picked this show apart in every way, down to the smallest details and then reassembled it to suit their own ideals and perceptions. I’m sure that’s what diehard fans of everything do, but that’s where the diehards diverge from the rest of fandom. And understand, I’m fine with that. The show is something they enjoy, its been around for almost thirty years, it makes since that they would turn it into something reflective of their personality. The thing that blows my mind is the way so much in this thread is discussed in absolutes. Like this is how it was, how it really really was and all you have to do is watch the show and its right there. But it's not. This is the end result of pouring into the show, not taking out of it.

Discuss your interpretations, share your own re-imagenings if you want, that’s what a message board for a TV show is all about. But don’t phrase it as though all of this is anything more than your own opinion. It becomes more and more apparent that no continuation of the original series is going to make everyone happy, and the reason is that no matter how true anybody tries to be with it, it will always lack that extra layer. It will always lack what has been filled in by each person. And threads like this one show just how extensive that information can be. It also shows how what some people see so clearly, the rest of us just shake our heads at.

Some people have criticized Hatch’s novels more and more as each one comes out. Grumbling that he’s getting things wrong, and changing this and that, and continuing the wrong things. The real problem is that he’s not keeping what they want kept, and he’s not changing what they would change. The same would happen for a filmed continuation as well.

My point is just that the original show was actually very very simple. The more depth you put to it, the more of your beliefs and desires are being mixed in. Again, that’s fine, but don’t lose sight of it when you do it.

[nextceo]

...It becomes more and more apparent that no continuation of the original series is going to make everyone happy, and the reason is that no matter how true anybody tries to be with it, it will always lack that extra layer. It will always lack what has been filled in by each person. And threads like this one show just how extensive that information can be. It also shows how what some people see so clearly, the rest of us just shake our heads at.

My point is just that the original show was actually very very simple. The more depth you put to it, the more of your beliefs and desires are being mixed in. Again, that’s fine, but don’t lose sight of it when you do it.

:Nsalute: Fragmentary, you are my hero! :LOL: You're post couldn't have said it any better. Thanks for your insight! :thumbsup:

[Eric Paddon]

"If you watched the show you'd see its not :LOL: "buddhist". "

I'm afraid you missed the whole point of what I was commenting on in the first place. THere was a thread on this board in the 2003 section about a "Stealth continuation" possibility, and in that thread is a direct commentary on how if this were to happen in TNS (and I am not denying it's not based on anything that's aired) it would be as a result of integrating a religous subtext rooted in Buddhist concepts. *That* is what I was specifically objecting to as something that I would (#1) not approve of as a means of trying to tie TNS into TOS and (#2) would offend me personally on the grounds that it would represent tampering with the religious subtexts of TOS. My comments were entirely based on my feelings about this as a possibility, which in the original thread was being heralded as something for TOS fans to take hope in with regard to TNS, and as a result that was fair game for me to comment on because it has *nothing* to do with watching an episode at all.

"Again, the shows are in the eyes of the beholders as when I watch TOS, I see it no more judeo - christian than TNS, and never did. "

I'm sorry but there comes a point where one has to look at a specific set of factual points about what was established in TOS and realize that ultimately, irregardless of one's own perspective, a distinct subtext as it relates to Judeo-Christian traditions starts to emerge. When I watch Star Trek, I can't let an "eye of the beholder" perspective make me form the conclusion that I can find Judeo-Christian subtexts in that show because that runs contrary to the facts of what that show establises, and when one throws in the clearly stated views of its creator, that has to tip things in one way ultimately in saying that Star Trek is subtly to blatantly sympathetic to the anti-religious perspective of secularism and that traditional forms of religion are for the uneducated masses. But in Galactica you have a show where the internals that point to a worldview that favors the traditional general Judeo-Christian framework of Western Civilization religion can not just be ignored to say that TOS can be seen in "any" particular religious lens.

"A reimaging not a complete change. If it was a complete change it wouldn't be called BSG, thus the production staff are going to take some things and ideas from TOS, it would be stupid if they didn't."

It would have been better if they'd taken nothing and given it a different name and then there would be none of the bitterness that fills so much of our ranks today in BG fandom. And what they kept of TOS is hardly what I would call the "best" of it, especially since they threw out the entire philosophical/religious subtext of the original, as well as the dynamics of the characters and their relationships. All I'm left with is something that shares a name and a few character names and just enough to maddeningly remind me of what I wanted to see continued in its original form for the last 25 years.

[Eric Paddon]

"Discuss your interpretations, share your own re-imagenings if you want, that’s what a message board for a TV show is all about. But don’t phrase it as though all of this is anything more than your own opinion."

I'm sorry but when you have a relevant body of facts to support an interpretation, that's when you have to start thinking seriously about the possibility that there's a definitive answer to all of this. When I can cite a number of specifics in the series that point to the prevailing religious subtext of TOS being one that ties in to key concepts of the Western Civilization Judeo-Christian tradition, then as far as I'm concerned if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck and walks like a duck, it is a duck. A duck is not an eagle to someone else just because it's in the "eye of the beholder" to that person, it's still a duck, and Galactica in its original format is a show that did things in a way that was sympathetic to those of a Judeo-Christian perspective.

"Some people have criticized Hatch’s novels more and more as each one comes out. Grumbling that he’s getting things wrong, and changing this and that, and continuing the wrong things. The real problem is that he’s not keeping what they want kept"

No, the problem is that he doesn't take the time to do his homework about some basic premises of the series as it was established in the episodes. Galactica is not a show where the stories were self-contained like Star Trek and you could conveniently forget about what happened in one story for purposes of writing a new one. It was a continuing *storyline* in which the characters learned from things, changed in response to things that happened previously etc. That means when you write a story set in that universe, you have to get your details right before you proceed. That means you do not get such obvious things wrong like Rigel's gender, nor does it mean you forget all about the most critical plot point of "War Of The Gods" which is the Ship Of Lights revealing the general coordinates for Earth at the end of the episode (even "Galactica 1980" remembered that plot point in "Return Of Starbuck" for heaven's sake!). I've been writing fanfic stories for the last 12 years and have read many more written by others and while I have seen a diverse number of approaches in what kind of stories to tell, what always remains constant is a simple respect for CONTINUITY with what was established. And Richard Hatch's failures as a novelist is because he failed that first basic test of writing a story.

[Darth Marley]

I thought the best thing about the "ship of lights" was the notion that humanity might attain a godlike status through our own efforts.
A kind of Gnostic apotheosis, if you will.

The notion that we need not rely on the sacrifice of others, yet might attain wisdom through our own questions and actions.

[nextceo]

One last word on Moore and how he developed the religion for the new Galactica, and this is by his own words as stated in his most recent Q&A blog at sci-fi:

"in what sense religion (particularly as it relates to current events) has informed the inspiration behind the series and to what extent, if any, this relates back to how it informed Glen Larson's series."

The religious angle was something that evolved after the first draft of the miniseries. In that draft, I had mentioned, almost in passing, that Number Six believed in God and that really intrigued Michael Jackson (the executive, not the singer) who was working at the studio at the time. He suggested making it a bigger part of the show and also to more strongly play the Al-Queada/Cylon parallels. Both comments surprised and delighted me and I was more than happy to go in both those directions. The Colonials in the original were always mentioning the "Lords of Kobol" and I decided to make that literal rather than figurative and give them a polytheistic religion and the Cylons a monotheistic belief system. I found the clash of those two belief systems to be fascinating in our own history and thought it would be an interesting conflict in the show.

[Eric Paddon]

"He suggested making it a bigger part of the show and also to more strongly play the Al-Queada/Cylon parallels. Both comments surprised and delighted me and I was more than happy to go in both those directions. The Colonials in the original were always mentioning the "Lords of Kobol" and I decided to make that literal rather than figurative and give them a polytheistic religion"

Giving the Cylons the religion that parallels more closely the one that resembles something from Western civilization and a polytheistic one for the Colonials only proves my point as to why I object to everything about TNS for tampering with TOS's religious subtext.

Moore is simply revealing again how little he knows about TOS (but then again he also admitted he only watched 1 and a half episodes in a 25 year span) because "The Lords Of Kobol" does not refer to the deities they worship.

The bottom line for a show called "Battlestar Galactica" with me. No continuance of the religious subtexts as established by the original = no sale. And in this instance it leaves me with a same-old, same-old from the Hollywood religion perspective.

[Darrell Lawrence]

"Lords of Kobol" as used in osBG is = to Religious Leaders, ie Popes, Cardinals, etc as well as regular type leaders such as Presidents, Govenors, Mayors, Pharoes, Dictators, etc etc.

[larocque6689]

nuBG isn't a remake (that'd follow the SAME story)
nuBG is a re-imagining, thus is something enterily new. A different version.

I view this as a symantic game. To me they signify the same thing. All remakes alter elements of the source material but more or less tell the same story. With the new series they're telling the same story with different characters. The function of the characters is (more or less) the same.

For example, Adama's split off into three characters in the new series. TNS Adama is the military persona, and with surprise, Laura is taking on TOS Adama's religious persona in addition to the civilian role.

[Darrell Lawrence]

The "Cylons created by man, return to destroy man because man is faulty" is not the same story as "Cylons created by Cylon Lizards, exterminate mankind for helping a neighbor (the Hassari)".

If your trying to say "We gotta find Earth" is the same story, well... toss in "Lost In Space" and "Star Trek- Voyager" as being the same story.

[BST]

"Lords of Kobol" as used in osBG is = to Religious Leaders, ie Popes, Cardinals, etc as well as regular type leaders such as Presidents, Govenors, Mayors, Pharoes, Dictators, etc etc.


I never viewed the Lords of Kobol as deities, merely as the revered leaders of the mother world, Kobol. Maybe there was more to the picture and I just missed it.

:D

[Darrell Lawrence]

I never viewed the Lords of Kobol as deities, merely as the revered leaders of the mother world, Kobol.

That's what I said ;)

[BST]

That's what I said ;)

:eek: :eek:

Ye gods! You DID say that. I'm hopeless. ;)

:D

[larocque6689]

In TOS, the Lizard Cylons created the Robotic Cylons. The Robotic Cylons rebelled against their masters and created an Imperious Leader, who may be patterned/modelled after Count Iblis. The Lizard Cylons gave over their free will to Iblis and were "overcome by their technology" and hunted to extinction. The Cylon order spread throughout the universe and went to war with Man (who had been guided over the millenia by Iblis' angelic brothers aboard the Ship of Lights. The thing that always got to me is that the robot Cylons were not patterend after the lizards - but MAN. The Lizard Cylons and Man were ultimately in the identical predicament - at the mercy of these robots, caught in a war between the greater powers, between "Good and Evil".

The Human/Cylon war in Galactica was "The Berzerkers" with Pearl Harbor and Mormon theology thrown into the blender. Prior to War of the Gods, the Cylons were these robots who couldn't shoot straight but somehow managed to wipe out the human race. With War of the Gods it was part of something larger (and to me at least, more interesting than the "Saga" premise).

In TNS - they short-circuited the war. The Lizard Cylons are gone. Or rather, the humans ARE the TOS Lizard Cylons in addition to the TOS human role. It's a simplification of the original story, in the same way some wrtiers create composite characters rather than recreate half a dozen separate roles. We don't know much about the religion in the new series aside from RDM's monotheist/polytheist blog comments. The Cylons and humans are approaching things from two different philosophies or worldviews. There ARE connections between the two worldviews - suggesting the ultimate source is the same. (Parellel to TOS: Iblis and Ship of Lights)

I won't accept that TOS was not polytheistic. It was a polytheism overlaid wtih monotheistic overtones. (Which in a weird way, parellels its LDS sources). There definitely were several religious belief systems in TOS including Cassiopeia's famous Otori sect as well as the Klingon-like honor-systems of the Borellians. The Colonials believed in a lot of things.

Look - you can deconstruct this to death. There are a hell of a lot of common elements betwen both series. To call it anything other than Battlestar Galactica doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. I stand by the statment: two different takes on the same story, with different characters but the characters more or less playing the same function. Or to parellel this with the thread - "everything that has happened before will happen again." I'm not going to be distracted by the thought that they've shuffled a few cards in the deck in the process.

Perhaps if you are twisted you could refer to this as the "Bizarro" BSG or the Federation/Empire of Star Trek. If it means anything, I think you could have a heydey with Lost in Space and Voyager. Look, I'm not out to convert anyone to my way of thinking on this.

Hey, whatever floats your boat.

[Fragmentary]

Look - you can deconstruct this to death. There are a hell of a lot of common elements betwen both series. To call it anything other than Battlestar Galactica doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. I stand by the statment: two different takes on the same story, with different characters but the characters more or less playing the same function. Or to parellel this with the thread - "everything that has happened before will happen again." I'm not going to be distracted by the thought that they've shuffled a few cards in the deck in the process.
I agree with this statement totally. A lot of this might come down to what each of us thought were the "key" elements of the original series. It seems for some it was the integration of certain religious dogma, and from that point of view the new show is widely different… I guess. For me, all of that is just setting. None of that is what the show is actually about, nor is it the show’s tone. The show is about mankind looking for Earth to survive and it’s told thru the eyes of an extended family, both literal and figuratively. Both of those things are alive and well in the new show. Re-imaging or re-make, we’re talking about the same thing. There both just short hand terms for something that writers, artists, and now producers have been doing forever. Maybe it isn’t enough like the old show, but it certainly bears a lot more in common than just the name.

[julix]

Eric sorry to stray from your thread but wanted to just let you know something...you stated as I also heard that RDM had originally said he only watched about 1 episode of TOS.....or very little. Well now in an article just out he claims he watched TOS religiously and knows it well. Interesting huh? Antelope commented back to me on a different thread about the article in the Chronicle that RDM was being"coy" and it was a marketing ploy.......you can read all his comments because I don't want to leave it out of context(but don't know how to do a link to the thread....sorry)


Nextceo......
You mentioned why are people upset when TNS takes things from TOS? I think it is because they all kind of made it clear how cheesy the old show was and how "great" the new show was and they didn't need anything from TOS....they had all this original gritty ideas that were better......then little by little we see more and more taken from TOS and RDM changing his mind on lots of things....note comment above. It makes for bad feelings and doesn't make me trust what he says. I think that is where soome of it comes from....just my opinion, can't speak for everyone. There could be other reasons known only to him that he does this....perhaps. I am sure people in Hollywood do it all the time....




Sorry to stray off topic all

[Eric Paddon]

Julix, I know about Moore saying he watched it "religously" and I think the difference though is he's saying he watched it "religiously" when it first aired but that since 1979, his viewing experience has been 1 and a half episodes. And when he was making his decisions on how to reinvent Galactica, that was a matter of just watching the cut down pilot and nothing else. Whatever fuzzy recollections he has of Galactica is based on 25 year memories and not the continued exposure through the years that most of us have.

[julix]

Julix, I know about Moore saying he watched it "religously" and I think the difference though is he's saying he watched it "religiously" when it first aired but that since 1979, his viewing experience has been 1 and a half episodes. And when he was making his decisions on how to reinvent Galactica, that was a matter of just watching the cut down pilot and nothing else. Whatever fuzzy recollections he has of Galactica is based on 25 year memories and not the continued exposure through the years that most of us have.


AHHHH...I see the difference...thanks for clearing that up.... :)

[Eric Paddon]

"A lot of this might come down to what each of us thought were the "key" elements of the original series. It seems for some it was the integration of certain religious dogma, and from that point of view the new show is widely different… I guess. For me, all of that is just setting."

I think it's okay to say that the matter of TOS showing its sympathy for the Judeo-Christian perspective is not important to you personally as to why you like the show, but that is a far cry from trying to argue that the Judeo-Christian presence itself in the series is only an "eye of the beholder" matter as has been the case in this thread. For me, the fact that I like Star Trek is because I see enough to let me look past the subtle to blatant secularism that exists in it and focus on what about original Trek impresses me more, but it doesn't mean I try to argue that the secularlist sentiment doesn't exist in Trek.

I have no problem with the argument that these religious subexts of TOS aren't important to some TOS fans, but when we get to the level of trying to argue that that particular subtext isn't there and it's only a matter of "eye of the beholder" and not based on the specifics of what is clearly established, that's when the dynamic of the argument changes completely, it seems to me.

[martok2112]

To his credit, Ronald D. Moore stated that what he saw in TOS Battlestar Galactica was the potential for a very powerful story, with a dark premise. RDM is playing upon the dark premise aspect of "humanity's destruction and exodus".

As much as I love TOS (and I really do), you don't get the dark premise with the casino in space and other elements that were used to lighten up the original show. I am fully aware that this was 1978 television, and that it was the dictates of the networks that Larson had to lighten up his premise. It had to go from a tragedy to a feel good family hour show.

As far as the networks were concerned, the general public obviously wasn't ready for something more concretely rooted in the darker aspects of the show. Just like back in the sixties, when the networks felt that the general public wasn't ready to accept a female as a first officer in another sci-fi television show.

The stupidity of the networks has been a historical laugh riot.

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[BST]

There was an acknowledgement of Moore's preparation, for the Mini-Series, by Ron Moore, himself. Sandy / TwoBrainedCylon had posted an interview that he had done with RDM and when Sandy asked a question regarding the preparation DeSanto had done and that Moore had done, Moore stated

(paraphrased)

"...Tom's work involved continuing the original story so, it made sense for him to be familiar with the ENTIRE show. In my case, since the show was being re-imagined from the beginning, I had only watched Saga of a Space World, to get a feel for it. I didn't need to be familiar with all of the tie-ins from subsequent episodes"


This is from memory but, that was the gist of the statement.


Now, if we only had a copy of the interview!

BST

[nextceo]

Julix, no offense, because I appreciate your open mind about TNS, I really do, but that is the way business is, of course they are going to play up their new series, because they want people to watch it. Look I love TOS, but it has some classicly 70's cheesiness to it, but that is what makes it an endearing show to me, becuase I grew up with it. However, when looking to reach a broader audience they wanted to get rid of a lot of the "cheese" or whatever people want to call it. Unfortunately that has turned a number of TOS fans against it. I have a lot of friends (especially younger than me) I tried to get to watch classic BSG, and they just thought it was too "cheesy" because it didn't reach their sensibilities, but love the look and feel of the new show. This is why significant changes were made, in order to reach a newer and wider demographic the powers that be decided to make changes. They like the premise of the old show but wanted to update and reimagine it. The way it was gone about was not good, I'll certainly agree with that, but that is the way many business decisions are made (unfortunately), how they think they can get the most demographics. Again, I don't agree with the tactics but we have to deal with the hand that was dealt, and after a certain point as Richard Hatch has said (and I don't beleive anyone did anymore than him to bring back the original characters), you get to a certain point and you have to play with the cards you are dealt and go forward. We can continue to cry what if, but it doesn't help change what we already have. And you know what after seeing later eps of TNS, it does go back more towards its TOS roots and I'm glad RDM has decided to take it that direction. I'm not attempting to condone anything that anybody did to tick people off, unfortunately in this situation that is what happened.

I was also actively pushing a continuation before Sci-Fi made their annoucements, so I was there during the time and know how things went down. Not really well, but on the other hand I think a lot of TOS fans blew things out of proportion and it only inflamed both sides and made people dig in their heels more. I'm not trying to blame, its just the way things worked out.

Again nothing personal to anyone on the thread, just my thoughts of how I see things! I appreciate all of your passion for both the new show and the old, more people need to have the passion about their beleifs that people on this board show. :Nsalute:

[martok2112]

Howdy, nextceo,

Nice post. Well stated.

I am not entirely sure, without meaning to sound disrespectful, that a lot of fans blew things out of proportion. (I am aware that you stated that you don't know all of the ins and outs about how this new show came about). Many TOS Traditionalists do feel though that the existence of the new show was brought about in a very underhanded way.

Especially when one considers that a continuation show/movie was merely weeks away from actual shooting, with sets constructed, or at least partially constructed, and actors ready to go. I think some people have posted a sort of timeline as to what went down, but I don't know the links here.

After 9/11. things radically changed for the future of Battlestar Galactica. Those changes left a lot of fans sour (to say the least)

Respectfully,
Martok2112 :Nsalute:

[larocque6689]

I've got a bunch of links here:

http://www.mortalstorm.com/rdmbgintro.html

RDM Web Chats
9/2/2002 - http://www.battlestargalactica.com/discussions/rm2002qa/bg_moore_sept2002qa.html
5/10/2003 - http://www.cylon.org/bsg/bsg03QA-RDM01.html
11/5/2003 - http://www.cylon.org/bsg/bsg03QA-RDM02.html

[BST]

Good post, nextceo.

A couple of points I'd like to discuss, though:

A wider demographic? If I recall, TNS is actually directed toward a narrower demographic than TOS, the 18-25 age group, and their location at the 10:00 PM timeslot is indicative of that. TOS, on the other hand, was more widely directed toward the entire family, i.e., prime-time.

***

You were around when "things went down" ... "think a lot of TOS fans blew things out of proportion..."? I agree that there are no angels on either side of the fence but, give me a break. The first salvos of the Clone Wars were set off by the "new show" proponents. Our reaction may have been less than stellar, in some cases, but I don't fault people for their reaction. When the perpetrator of the Clone Wars was exposed, it was found to be one or two people having created multiple handles which gave the impression of nothing but, undying love for the new show. Combined with Sci-Fi's hard-core moderation of their bboard which, in some cases, meant total censorship of any post EXCEPT ones that praised the new show, and you have the seeds for animosity in full bloom.

Yeah, it happened. We dealt with it and many of us are not proud of that time period but, as you can see, many of us have not forgotten it, either. It was a defining moment of sorts for this fandom and it began the schism that has developed amongst TOS and TNS fans.

***

..."they just thought it was too "cheesy" because it didn't reach their sensibilities"

One of the more reviled elements, indicated by many of the new show fans, is about the "kid and the daggit". To me, that was one of the more heart-warming parts of the show. Does anyone know why the daggit became part of the show? Go back to Saga when Serina confronts Apollo and explains how 'down-hearted' Boxey is, due to the loss of his pet - his best friend. The subsequent scene has Apollo befriending Boxey and giving him one of his lapel pins. (Later, Apollo works with Dr. Wilker, to develop a mechanical daggit for Boxey, trying to replace the one lost on Caprica.) After the scene with Boxey, Apollo and Serina talk again and Apollo remarks, "What's a warrior to do after losing the big one, .... win a few of the little ones."

That scene epitomized, for me, the love that one person has for another. It's this type of message that endeared TOS to me. It was a quite sensible message, even for a 17/18 year old, to grasp.

But, apparently that type of message is not favored any longer. Now, it appears that each and every person has to have an inner struggle from which to overcome, in order to make things interesting.

Do people, in general and in real life, think that our existence is really that bad? Is there nothing good that people can see, about life?
Do we always have to view the glass as being half-empty? Can it not be viewed as being half-full?


BST

[BST]

Larocque,

THANK YOU ... THANK YOU ... THANK YOU !!!!!


:D :D

BST

[Darth Marley]

Do we always have to view the glass as being half-empty? Can it not be viewed as being half-full?


BST

The one, true, correct answer to this age old question: the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

[BST]

Thanks, Darth.
I needed that.

:rotf:

[Eric Paddon]

"Look I love TOS, but it has some classicly 70's cheesiness to it, but that is what makes it an endearing show to me, becuase I grew up with it. However, when looking to reach a broader audience they wanted to get rid of a lot of the "cheese" or whatever people want to call it."

Except here is a problem. When people run down so-called "cheese" of the original (I want to be honest. I HATE that word), they are always focusing on matters of execution that were common to TV of the time. That is a problem that also afflicts "Star Trek" in a whole host of episodes and I don't just mean "Spock's Brain." But has anyone ever said that Star Trek should have been "reinvented" in such a drastically altered way from its original characters and concepts just because of a large share of clunker episodes like "Patterns Of Force" with their cheap way of using WWII uniforms and the height of "cheese", "A Piece Of The Action" (which was "let's find a way to reuse all those leftover props and costumes from "The Untouchables" in a sci-fi series)?

So is it true as well with Galactica from the standpoint of one like me. You simply do as I have done in fanfic stories for the last decade and get rid of those hampering elements of storytelling while staying true to the characters, storyline and conceptual framework that is TOS. I've seen too many good creative minds demonstrate that those kinds of stories can be written and IMO that totally runs against the notion that the change in concept and characters was somehow needed to get this "wider demographic" that only Moore is supposed to have been capable of bringing about.

[julix]

Nextceo....I take no offense to what you said and I agree.... a lot of people younger than most of us don't see past certain elements of TOS. And these are some of the same people who can't enjoy a classic black and white movie. it does sometimes take I believe someone a little special who can delve into the story itself to see what wonderful things are there. Like for example if I hear one more time about the "70's hair"................lol Anyway Nextceo I think i totally understand where you are comming from and it seems you understand me as well. I want to try to put all my past hurt and pain behind me and move on. Hopefully, I can. I know people say it was "only a T.V. show" and it is true but it is still something I loved and still love and it was handeled wrong and what can you do....???It is out of my hands and always has been other then my support of CFF and my letter writting I have done . The rest is up to the suits and we all know how they feel about us. It looks like some good links were posted to look at.......



BTW....BST....again some great points :salute:

[jewels]

Darth, I've never seen that answer, but I like it very much! :D

[martok2112]

The one, true, correct answer to this age old question: the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.


There's almost something "ZEN" about that answer. :D

[nextceo]

To all, great messages... I think we are on similar pages, I appreciate your comments, it was my goal not to come off wrong in my last post, hopefully it doesn't look like I did. I agree though I hate the word cheese, maybe you'd call it a positive family experience, but that is one of the things I enjoyed about the original. It is definitely less visible in the current iteration and I can see how people don't like the new version because of that (among other things). The current version is definitely more bleak, but I think you will see as the season goes along (yes, I've seen all the eps through 13, and watch weekly on sci-fi!) that the positives start to come out (although you get a heck of a twist in ep 13). Its not nearly as positive as TOS but more upbeat than the mini.

BST I agree with you there is a lot of talking about the bad and less about the good on TV. I think honestly a lot of it is trying to delve into interesting characters and that darker characters with a lot of neroses are easier to pull of than positive ones in the current market. I wish we did have more positive characters on shows (that is why Apollo is my favorite character on TNS (TOS as well), he continues to stand up for what is right down to the end). I do agree with you though we need more positive feedback on TV. I own my own small production company and we primarily cater to doing promotional video and DVD work for companies. I'm currently working on a project to develop an interview show (for distribution on PBS) that focuses on the positives in life (as we need to see more of it on TV) and hopefully we can get that project off the ground this summer.

Thank you for all of your input, I definitely have a better idea of where you are all coming from, and I'm glad I think many of you can see my viewpoint as well. Hopefully we can continue to work for the betterment of BSG, whether we support TOS, TNS, or both.... :Nsalute:

[bsg1fan1975]

Good post, nextceo.

A couple of points I'd like to discuss, though:

A wider demographic? If I recall, TNS is actually directed toward a narrower demographic than TOS, the 18-25 age group, and their location at the 10:00 PM timeslot is indicative of that. TOS, on the other hand, was more widely directed toward the entire family, i.e., prime-time.

***

You were around when "things went down" ... "think a lot of TOS fans blew things out of proportion..."? I agree that there are no angels on either side of the fence but, give me a break. The first salvos of the Clone Wars were set off by the "new show" proponents. Our reaction may have been less than stellar, in some cases, but I don't fault people for their reaction. When the perpetrator of the Clone Wars was exposed, it was found to be one or two people having created multiple handles which gave the impression of nothing but, undying love for the new show. Combined with Sci-Fi's hard-core moderation of their bboard which, in some cases, meant total censorship of any post EXCEPT ones that praised the new show, and you have the seeds for animosity in full bloom.

Yeah, it happened. We dealt with it and many of us are not proud of that time period but, as you can see, many of us have not forgotten it, either. It was a defining moment of sorts for this fandom and it began the schism that has developed amongst TOS and TNS fans.

***

..."they just thought it was too "cheesy" because it didn't reach their sensibilities"

One of the more reviled elements, indicated by many of the new show fans, is about the "kid and the daggit". To me, that was one of the more heart-warming parts of the show. Does anyone know why the daggit became part of the show? Go back to Saga when Serina confronts Apollo and explains how 'down-hearted' Boxey is, due to the loss of his pet - his best friend. The subsequent scene has Apollo befriending Boxey and giving him one of his lapel pins. (Later, Apollo works with Dr. Wilker, to develop a mechanical daggit for Boxey, trying to replace the one lost on Caprica.) After the scene with Boxey, Apollo and Serina talk again and Apollo remarks, "What's a warrior to do after losing the big one, .... win a few of the little ones."

That scene epitomized, for me, the love that one person has for another. It's this type of message that endeared TOS to me. It was a quite sensible message, even for a 17/18 year old, to grasp.

But, apparently that type of message is not favored any longer. Now, it appears that each and every person has to have an inner struggle from which to overcome, in order to make things interesting.

Do people, in general and in real life, think that our existence is really that bad? Is there nothing good that people can see, about life?
Do we always have to view the glass as being half-empty? Can it not be viewed as being half-full?


BST

I'd rather have a show that I can sit and watch with kids like TOS was then to have a show where they cannot see what made me a fan of such a show till they were old enough to watch!