can't we all just get along

[viper]

i have been reading here for a few days now, and im still quite a new member. one thing i have noticed, is a deliberate effort to blunt the hostilities between the fans of the old, and the fans of the new.

this confuses the heck out of me. why is there any hostility at all? i loved the old show when i was young, and now i like this one too. is this not the case with everyone? after 20 odd years, im pretty sure a continuation is not in the offing, so what is the gripe witht he new show....

anyone want to take a stab at explaining this to me?

:blink:

[Rowan]

Lordy Viper you sure know how to ask the big questions !! LOL ;) :D here is a thread that might provide some of the answers to your question...
http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7398
(actually that link isn't the best I'll see if I can find another thread...)

[thomas7g]

Oh man.... that requires a loooong explanation.

I really should be programming right now. But its a good question. Something that needs to be answered.


You have to understand the history of the BG revival.

Back in the 80s and early-mid 90s there was a BIG movement to bring the show back. Richard Hatch personally gave ALOT of money and time and work. He gathered alot of fans and profesionals together and they devoted a huge amount and created a promotional teaser of what could be done. Basically a creation made by devoted fans. They were set to go with funding, but the legal rights battle between Glen Larson and Universal killed the project.

But around 2000 a new project headed by Xmen movie creator Tom Desanto was finaly launched. Fans rejoiced cause it would continue the old show with most of the surviving cast.

BUT.....Horribly...trageically.....there was a scheduliing problem where DeSanto had to put the show on haitus while he was contractually obligated to do XMEN2.

Then sadly... Bonnie Hammer did a coup and took control of the project away from Desanto. She hated the old show. She doesn't care much for Scifi in general even though she is head of SciFi Channel Programming. And she killed the story. Threw out the plot. Threw out the art. The original cast were never assembled. And the sets and props that were being built were ordered to be smashed to bits. They literally took sledgehamers to it!

Hamer put Eick and Moore in charge and had them do a new story, one that had little to do with the old series. Infact any ideas that were too similiar to the old show was rejected. The idea was to establish legally that Battlestar Galactica was a Universal Studio Property and not that of Glen Larson. This would affect who got the profits.

And that's how the new mniseries came about. And why fans were so frustrated and ticked off. Some are still very angry.

Plus there were some really nasty fights between fans of each show. Most of it on the scifichannel forums and other places.

it was not pretty.

And there are still people unsatisfied and hurt. And when people come in and stir the pot, it can get loud fast.

:)

Our Fleets forums here specifically likes to avoid the nasty part of forums and just focus on fun. :D

[thomas7g]

http://www.firedragon.com/~cfleets/gallery/battlestargalacticagallery/desanto/desanto-prod-viper-build07.jpg

[thomas7g]

http://www.firedragon.com/~cfleets/gallery/battlestargalacticagallery/desanto/desanto-prod-bridge-concept0.jpg

http://www.firedragon.com/~cfleets/gallery/battlestargalacticagallery/desanto/desanto-prod-set-build1.jpg


All gone....:cry:

[Darrell Lawrence]

The worst part of the beginnings of the remake/mini were the insults tossed about at the osBG fans by not only the producers, but a couple of the actors as well.

"I am Starbuck, so deal with it!" - Katie Sackhoff, The Lowdown.

Shouldn't this thread be in the new *ahem* debate forum? :D

[thomas7g]

You're right!

Ohhhhh MOD!!!!

[Haveke]

i have been reading here for a few days now, and im still quite a new member. one thing i have noticed, is a deliberate effort to blunt the hostilities between the fans of the old, and the fans of the new.

this confuses the heck out of me. why is there any hostility at all? i loved the old show when i was young, and now i like this one too. is this not the case with everyone? after 20 odd years, im pretty sure a continuation is not in the offing, so what is the gripe witht he new show....

anyone want to take a stab at explaining this to me?

:blink:

Mankind Has Always Feared Change.

Haveke




:warrior: :warrior:

[Dawg]

This thread probably should be moved - but I've been out drinking and shouldn't drive.....

;)

It's not change. Ask anyone who favors a continuation over what was produced and they'll tell you that every one of us recognizes the need to bring up to date and deepen the storytelling.

The hostility against the new production is born of many factors. Paramount among them are the rejection of what made the original unique (and the hard, hard work that was put into creating that uniqueness); the mythology, back story, alienness - in 1978 the characters were human, sympathetic, identifiable - but not of Earth. In 2003/4/5, you could grab any one of these people out of the corner 7/11.

Without the fans of 1978's Battlestar Galactica keeping it alive, there would be no 2003 miniseries, or following series. Yet the fans that worked so hard to keep the dream alive were ignored, vilified, and disrespected by the very producers of the new show. There was no gratitude or even acknowledgement of the efforts of the fans - just "look for your popcorn in another aisle" and "deal with it".

Then there were a handful of people, troublemakers of the highest order, who presented themselves as comrades who proceeded to foment dissention and strife when the fanbase needed to hang together.

The fact that the final production in 2003 (and the coming series) bears so little resemblance to the heart and soul of the original.....

Some of it is age. Many of us grew up in a time when heroes meant something. Larger-than-life was something to strive for. Nobility was a good thing. Hope against impossible odds was good storytelling.

To think that we could have had it all...

Liking something is a matter of personal taste. That's not the issue (I just want to be very clear on that). It's what was rejected, and how it was treated.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[viper]

this bonnie hamer sounds like a bad lady!

[viper]

i didnt know anything about all the revival efforts, or the apparent in-bickering over rights and so forth. kind of a sad story. one would hope that good stories could be told without all the BS.

[thomas7g]

this bonnie hamer sounds like a bad lady!Some people really hate her. And she does tend to do things that unecessarily cause people to get very very angry.

Mostly I think she is extremely strongwilled. And someone who doesn't like the average scifi fan.

She tends to want to move scifi channel away from the normal spaceship and epics adventures into the weird and bizarre and horrific. She's an incredible marketing genius and great with quick 1 minute ads. But she has a weakness in knowing what is a good story. And she definitely has her own agenda, and she doesn't care if she crushes what scifi fans want. Or that she pisses people off. Like that fake M Night Schmalon consiracy thing that was actually a marketing gimic of hers.

All those weird scifi channel shows, Scare Tactics, Crossing Over with John Edwards, and those horror movies created for scifi ..etc are Bonnie Hammer products.

:)

And I agree...we really need to move on. Staying in the painful past don't help us. And The future still has great opportunities!

[Eric Paddon]

"Crossing Over with John Edwards"? Sounds like the title of a documentary about a former VP candidate switching parties! :D

[Sci-Fi]

Below are my observations and opinion that I have said in private here and to my TOS only friends:

Actually, one really needs to have been there to really give an accurate state of affairs of those times. Fans did not initially rejoice about the DeSanto version. That is when the word "re-imaging" and "re-inventing" was first used and heard. How many people remember Fox wanted a young and hip cast for the show and how fans sarcastically started calling it "BSG:90210"? And some fans wanted that version to be stillborn/aborted. Remember all the fuss about Singer contemplating going back to the beginning plus show the Cylons as GAL originally envisioned them and even a rumored whole new story arc? A merge of organic Cylon and robotics instead of the classic chrome tin cans. What about all the clamor and petitions to get as many of the original actors on the show AND into their original roles, especially Hatch (and he wasn't one of the 1st to be contacted and signed until much, much later) after it was reported that they might go with an all new cast? How about all the reported creative arguments between DeSantos and Singer? How many recall DeSantos BSG being dropped by Fox in favor of Firefly? Both shows were new, so 9/11 affected both, but why was BSG so far behind in development and was dropped in-spite of all the money spent on it? Fox believed in Singer but also needed X-Men2 to be successful for its bottom line, so off he went. Nobody seemed to be upset with Firefly taking BSG's place or with Fox ending its involvement with BSG for whatever reasons. In contrast, many Farscape fans hate and blame SG1 for replacing their favorite show. In hindsight, Fox could have canceled BSG after one season like they did with Firefly. The only difference is that GAL owns any theatrical movie rights, so it would have been very difficult, if not impossible to do a Firefly Serenity like movie without GAL either being involved or taking over the production or just saying no. Can probably do a search and read about it for yourself, if the websites still have or kept those posts in archives. IMHO, there's much that is or has been hidden/forgotten by the fandom from the links and comments posted. Don't ask about the controversy surrounding the petition to Fox to "save the show". Many sympathetic sci-fi fans from other shows refused to sign it (the petition should have been reworded and updated or even been rewritten regardless of the urgency of the situation). And that only exposes the many missteps and possibly burned bridges along the way. You should have read the burning comments about the proposed GAL/Moyer BSG movie. But that's a story for another time.

From what I have seen so far, many TNS fans have no idea what has happened in the past and happen to find one BSG site or another and only want to discuss the new show and exchange ideas like any typical fan would, not to be belittled, bothered, made to feel guilty, because they like something that you do not or be told to buy and/or watch the original series. They can read the TOS episode guides for themselves as they explore the site and make a judgment whether to watch or buy TOS DVD's, even if it's out of curiosity. There's no need to push somebody into doing something. It would be natural to resist the push. Some TOS fans were the first to draw the line in the sand and by doing so made TNS fans feel uneasy at best and reactive at worst. That should have never been allowed to happen and should have been crushed immediately regardless of who it is. Some say you can feel the divide and preferences shown in the moderation. It seems if you are a TOS fan, you get a slap on the hands, a nudge, and a wink-wink while a TNS fan gets the full monty for making comments that MAY be inflammatory or inappropriate or couldn't leave the flame-bait alone or posting flame-bait. How many people showed up after the mini aired and how many of them got disgusted with all the BS and asked that their membership be removed and that they were leaving? Look what Aaron Douglas went thru and there still were doubters about his identity after respected members of this forum researched and contacted his agent and verified that it was him. Did anybody ever apoligize? Don't think so and that says a lot about the fandom at that time. Give Aaron credit for staying and sharing his thoughts and insights, others would have left and be justified. Will there be more of the same when the series airs when people wanted to discuss the show signs up? How about the fans that enjoy both versions? Are they just tolerated?

AFAIK, people should follow Hatch's advice and openly welcome and embrace the people that enjoy the new show and allow them to freely discuss it, share their joy with others, without putting down their show or making comments that it should be canceled or what an abomination it is or calling it GINO or constantly posting negative reviews/opinions (people will ask why are you bothering to watch if you dislike it that much) for every episode. You still have the movie project and that's where your focus should be, to get what you want on the big screen, not to criticize or try to undermine what others enjoy. Bitterness and vengence toward the mini isn't going to accomplish anything constructive nor will it gain you allies or increase support for what you want. As others have said, BSG is only a TV show and even the Bible has been reinterpeted and the stories told differently who knows how many times.

Believe it or not, the Farscape fandom was credited for finding the investors to fund "The Peacekeeper Wars". BSG Continuation fans can do the same IF they turn/reject their negative energies toward the mini into positive ones for the continuation movie. BUT you need to get GAL to write a concept for a movie and then support/help him sell it. By giving room to or staying away from the TNS forums, you may gain or increase interest in your vision of BSG and increase the fanbase. Softsell is often more effective than a hardsell approach. Visit the Farscape forums, http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/index.php , and see how they operated their various campaigns/plans. They even have a policy of not criticizing the Sci-Fi Channel.

Whew...sorry about the long post...
:blink: :blush: :duck: :salute:

[julix]

Sci-Fi


Thank you for your post, as well as Tom, Dawg, Rowan, Eric and Warrior you guys are all great and offer good points. Welcome viper :salute: this is a very fun place to be, I hope you enjoy it. You did ask a complicated question, sometimes it hard to understand/explain something like this but you are getting some good background info. I also will mention a thought even though I have mixed feelings on it and am unsure if it is true or not. There is a fear that if the new BG is sucessful that TOS may never be revived to a continuation. Now, I am not saying this gives anyone the right to be unkind or state things that are untrue. But I know there are two schools of thought....one being TNS could bring more exposure to TOS helping it's popularity and the second school of thought being if TNS is sucessful it will override TOS and no one will want to see the continuation. I am really unsure myself as to what to believe. I do believe in being respectful to others in all areas of live including the internet. But as I have learned you can get people who are troublemakers just because the have some anonimity on the net. Either way, enjoy yourself and welcome. :D






P.S. I didn't know Aaron went through that, if so we should apologiize.

[Darrell Lawrence]

I do believe someone is confused... ;)

Actually, one really needs to have been there to really give an accurate state of affairs of those times. Fans did not initially rejoice about the DeSanto version. That is when the word "re-imaging" and "re-inventing" was first used and heard. How many people remember Fox wanted a young and hip cast for the show and how fans sarcastically started calling it "BSG:90210"?

In reality, the "re-imagining" and "re-inventing" came from Hammer herself BEFORE DeSanto was on the project. And this is where the BG-90210 came from.

When Richard was STILL pitching his trailer to Universal, it was Hammer herself that stepped in and shot that down with HER ideas of a new BG... SHE wanted to use Bio-dome ships and use a younger cast with lots of 90210-ish stuff, not DeSanto.

When DeSanto came on board, HE pitched a continuation idea, and got FOX to buy into it if Singer was a part of the deal.

FOX *did* want a younger cast. But DeSanto was smart. HE proposed the old cast would still be there, mentoring the new cast.

Hence "Boxey", aka Orinn in his version, being the commander of the "G".

Not Apollo or even Tigh. But a young man who was Boxey grown up.

[koenigrules]

I still keep in touch with Aaron & he's an OK guy.
He's taken the position there will be some that love TOS & don't like TNS at all.
But he also feels that they should not rain on the parade of those who have TNS to look forward too.
Be tolerant of both camps is his motto.
Sound advice to live by.
That he continues to post here is a very good thing.
KR

[viper]

indeed, you all have provided me with valuable background information i knew nothing about. thanks.

[Mike Wright]

This is a subject that while I don't comment on often, hurts me a great deal. Why? Because two of the guys in this thread I consider friends, and it hurts because I don't feel like I can talk about TNS without butting heads or hurting someone elses feelings.

I'm not gonna bother defending Bonnie Hammer. Why bother. That arguement could be played on both ends of the court. Just like Abortion. I don't like it, but I'm not gonna argue against womens rights.

From the fan angle, 99% of what has been said is true.

What isn't brought up very often from the fan angle is the number of death threats made to EJO, Katee Sackoff and Ron Moore over this thing. And, this is what pisses me off, those threats came from TOS fans, because the Mini hadn't aired when it happened, thus meaning it could ONLY have been TOS fans that did it.

Now what pisses me off is not that TOS fans did that. Its that I'm forced to label those incredible stupid assholes as TOS fans, along with people I consider friends. And that they themselves consider themselves "TOS-only" fans because they just can't get past the history. Which is fine, I could care less. People have a right to their opinion, and I'm especially not going to throw it in anyones face.

But in the aftermath of it all, a huge flamewar errupted that split BSG fandom down the middle. Now as I see it, the major spokesperson for TOS (at least used to be) is now trying to get people to calm down and see the two shows for what they are... Both excellent on their own merit, and not fair to compare. Now I'm seeing TOS fans take up Glen Larson as their new spokesperson, and while he *did* create the series, he also created G1980. And I'm sorry, but anyone responsible for that abomination probably should not be behind the reigns of a continuation.

I could sit here and talk about my position on all the continuations and the wars and whatnot, things I don't think I've actually gotten involved with in the past. All this is pointless.

But I just thought I'd speak out for a minute and say how much it hurts. I mean seriously, there are more important things in life. The two people in this thread I'm talking about, we did a lot of other cool stuff together, not related to BSG, so I would never argue which show is better or stupid topics like that. I guess it just hurts that this division has to continue to exist. Because honestly, I don't think that it does.

[Rowan]

(((((((((((((((((((Mike ))))))))))))))))))))))) :rose:

[Muffit]

Hi Viper! Yep, it's one of those topics like war or abortion, religion or politics, us crazy humans hurting one another because of invisible thoughts in our heads. What other animal in nature does that?

It's really not about what's better, I guess you could sum up the problem in two simple words -- pain and division. Words that did not need to exist, but do now anyway and we can not make them go away by watching the sand in the hourglass drain into oblivion, or hiding our heads in those tumbling grains.

So many good friends lost. Lost to pain. Lost to disappointment. Lost to an anger that robbed them of the good hearts they once had and made us turn our backs on them. Division and division and division again. Where unity is lost, bad things gather, to fill the void.

There is nothing wrong with being imaginative, different, or cool. Those are the qualities we look up to. There's just something wrong with hurting people to do it.

:muffit:

P.S. Whatever my pain, whatever my preference, I wish only the best to all my friends of either persuasion. :heart: Revel in what you enjoy. Be happy with whatever makes you happy, and don't let anyone take it from you.

And for gosh sake, be nice to one another... ;)

[koenigrules]

New Adama: So Say We All, Muffit!
Original Adama: By the Lords of Kobol, Muffit!

[amberstar]

Well said Muffit :rose:

[BST]

There is nothing wrong with being imaginative, different, or cool. Those are the qualities we look up to. There's just something wrong with hurting people to do it.

...and that quite neatly sums it up. Well said, Muffit. :) :salute:

[julix]

Muffit......
you said that so well, you have such a great way with words :heart:

[martok2112]

Well spoken points, everyone.

Respectfully,
Martok2112 (RETIRED Ambassador of Goodwill between the Fandoms)

[bsg1fan1975]

Hi Viper! Yep, it's one of those topics like war or abortion, religion or politics, us crazy humans hurting one another because of invisible thoughts in our heads. What other animal in nature does that?

It's really not about what's better, I guess you could sum up the problem in two simple words -- pain and division. Words that did not need to exist, but do now anyway and we can not make them go away by watching the sand in the hourglass drain into oblivion, or hiding our heads in those tumbling grains.

So many good friends lost. Lost to pain. Lost to disappointment. Lost to an anger that robbed them of the good hearts they once had and made us turn our backs on them. Division and division and division again. Where unity is lost, bad things gather, to fill the void.

There is nothing wrong with being imaginative, different, or cool. Those are the qualities we look up to. There's just something wrong with hurting people to do it.

:muffit:

P.S. Whatever my pain, whatever my preference, I wish only the best to all my friends of either persuasion. :heart: Revel in what you enjoy. Be happy with whatever makes you happy, and don't let anyone take it from you.

And for gosh sake, be nice to one another... ;)

That is the truth Muffit!:thumbsup: