Canon Question--12 colonies

[rjandron]

I hope this is in the right forum, but I'm wondering if anyone here knows the canonical answer to whether the 12 colonies in TOS were 12 worlds in a single star system, or 12 worlds gathered around a cluster of nearby stars.

[justjackrandom]

I hope this is in the right forum, but I'm wondering if anyone here knows the canonical answer to whether the 12 colonies in TOS were 12 worlds in a single star system, or 12 worlds gathered around a cluster of nearby stars.

Canon is an odd thing in the Galactica milieu, and unfortunately there isn't a definitive canonical source. That being said, it was never made clear in the series or the novelization of the pilot. Even the tactical 2-D display seen on the bridge and used to indicate three of the worlds in the pilot episode does not really make it clear. However, that "map" and the way some of the worlds are referenced ("outer planets"), suggest to me that the 12 Colonies were 12 separate "worlds" (I suspect some were actually moons around gas giants) that were all part of the same trinary solar system. Also note that the Colonials in the series are fairly consistent in their use of the term "solar system" for what we would call a star system, and the term "star system" is synonymous with galaxy.

JJR

[peter noble]

I'd have to agree with JJR's take on it.

In the pilot some of the rag tag fleet ships are seen passing a ringed gas giant, presumably in the Colonials' home system (Cyrannus System ?), their point of origin must have been a habitable moon.

Best,

Peter

[Antelope]

I am fairly certain that the answer is that they are 12 "worlds" that are in a single star system. Whether all of the "worlds" are planets or a combination of planets and moons I believe was never explained. In one of the shots of colonials fleeing we see a planet that appears by our standards not to be habitable. Whether that meant people were fleeing from an unseen moon or somehow colonial technology was able to overcome the environment, or whether it was simply a poor image to use on the part of special effects artist I do not know.

I understand that in the new series they were originally going to make the 12 colonies spread across multiple stars to make it more realistic but intentionally changed it to 12 worlds in one star system to reflect back to TOS.

[Darrell Lawrence]

I understand that in the new series they were originally going to make the 12 colonies spread across multiple stars to make it more realistic but intentionally changed it to 12 worlds in one star system to reflect back to TOS.


No. Originally in the mini they were going to make Kobol and that was it.

No twelve colonies at all.

Anyways, this forum is about osBG, so...

I believe each of the Colony planets are in a different solar system from each other, but relativly close to one another.

[Senmut]

The way it seemed to me was that Caprica's primary, as we see when Baltar is gloating over Adama's ruined home, was a binary sun. Now, it would make sense if further out from the "inner planets' was a third star, making the Colonial system a trinary. It would be as if there were a second sun, orbiting a common gravitational center with our sun, beyond the orbit of Pluto. (Pluto is approximately 12 light-hours from the sun, so imagine a star about the same again. Easily reachable in a day or less with Colonial technology.) Lots of room for more planets, yet close enough to be part of the same solar system. This would work for the Colonies.
The reason I doubt some of the Colonial worlds orbit gas giants is that, at least in our experience, gas giants tend to have massive magnetic fields and enormous radiation belts. Life, at least Human life, on a planet orbiting such a world would be precarious at best.

[peter noble]

The reason I doubt some of the Colonial worlds orbit gas giants is that, at least in our experience, gas giants tend to have massive magnetic fields and enormous radiation belts. Life, at least Human life, on a planet orbiting such a world would be precarious at best.

Hmm, I always kind of liked the idea that Pisces was a colony entirely underwate in a 'Europan' ocean.

Re: binary and trinary systems, would life be unlikely due to the increased amount of solar radiation?

Peter

[Antelope]

Hmm, I always kind of liked the idea that Pisces was a colony entirely underwate in a 'Europan' ocean.

Re: binary and trinary systems, would life be unlikely due to the increased amount of solar radiation?

Peter

Some theories on "Earth" type planets would lead you to believe that the vast majority of such planets would be entirely covered by water and that one with some land above water a rarity. The idea that Pisces was a water covered planet would fit well with me.

It is very conceiveable that a trinary system could have many planets with the potential for life and that radiation from non-primary suns on each planet would be a non-issue. If our own Jupiter was a bit bigger we might have one bright sun and one slight sun whose light varied depending on where our orbits were around the sun relative to each other at any given time.

In such a system you could see three separate solar systems revolving around a common center of gravity. After billions of years of interaction we would have stable planetary systems revolving around each of the three stars. If we had three Sol type systems revolving around such a center maybe we could have an Earth in each and a Terra formed Mars and Venus in each as well as "worlds" that were moons of the various planets. To get twelve worlds maybe all they really have around each sun is an Earth (World 1), Luna (World 2), terra formed Mars (World 3), and a colony on a Jovian Moon (World 4) times 3 stars = 12 colonies.

[BST]

If 'canon' is defined as that which appeared on TV then, I would submit that ALL of the Colonies were in 1 single solar system.

Recall the scenes with Adama, Tigh, and Omega, on the bridge during the Cylon attack. Omega remarks indicated that the attacks started on the "inner planets" and then, were moving to the "outer planets".

I interpreted those remarks as indicating that the Colonies were of the same solar system. In addition, I don't find reference to any of the 'worlds' being moons. Once again, pointing to Omega's remarks, it would seem that they were all planets. Also, Colonial terminology distinguished between the words, "planet" and "moon". They didn't seem to be interchangeable.

[Darrell Lawrence]

A star cluster would leave the planets in their own solar systems and yet still be close enough to each other.

In addition, the "inner" planets can be orbiting suns towards the middle of the cluster, as the "outer" planets can be on the outer edges of the cluster.

Re- Baltar gloating over the ruins of Adama's home: Where was it ever identified that he did that?

[BST]

Warrior,

I think the reference is to the scene with Baltar and the 2 Centurions, on the surface of Caprica, when Baltar asked the question, "And what is the standing order regarding humans?", to which the Centurion replied, "Extermination."

The setting, though, may be what is confusing. It looks very similar, if not the same, as the scene with Apollo awaiting Adama's return from their family home, and before the mob descends the hill.

BST

[Darrell Lawrence]

I figured that's what was being referred to. I suggest people go look at it again ;)

Baltar is looking DOWN from the TOP of a hill, while Adama's house was at the BOTTOM of a hill, as the people had approached coming from the TOP of the hill.

At the top of the hill that the people approached from, there was NO ruins.

But Baltar is standing right next to some ruins.

Thus, different hill.

[Gemini1999]

Tom -

I know that the Colonial Star map is being used for the wallpaper background for Fleets. Do you think that you could provide a copy so we could take a better look at it for this topic? It would be nice to take a good, close look at it, as it shows how many star systems make up the 12 Colonies.

It would be much appreciated....

Best,
Bryan

[rjandron]

I have to admit, when I asked this question, I favoured the multiple systems version. I think that the "inner planets" and "outer planets" referred to by Tigh could still be construed as referring to multiple systems in a stellar cluster.

As I recall (I think from Lost Planet of the Gods), the original colonists on their flight from Kobol had turned on their technology and reduced themselves to a primitive state of existence, where it took hundreds of yahren for them to regain even the basic level of technology. Terraforming worlds would not have been possible for them, so habitable planets would have been chosen at the outset. (Terraforming would not have been possible if the flight from Kobol was rapid, and there had been little to no time to prepare distant planets for taking colonists--given the state of Kobol at the time of the Exodus as alluded to in LPotG, I would think that there would not have been the necessary time for such terraforming).

As for how the planets were chosen, and which colony became Caprica and which became Piscera, I'd imagine that the strongest group of colonists would have taken the most preferable planet with weaker groups taking the next preferable planets out of the options available. Presumably, the Capricans would have wanted to keep the planet to themselves and would have fought off any other tribes who tried to settle on Caprica. Having a series of closeby stars would have prevented the tribes from warring with each other as they tried to rise back to a level of technology capable of interstellar travel.

Finding twelve habitable worlds in a single star system, particularly when there would be little to no opportunity for terraforming, would be a very extraordinary solar system. Almost scientifically impossible. Plus I'd hate to do the orbital mathematics to figure out how stable the orbits and planets themselves would be.

Far more plausible is finding systems that had one to three habitable planets each close by.

[Senmut]

I figured that's what was being referred to. I suggest people go look at it again ;)

Baltar is looking DOWN from the TOP of a hill, while Adama's house was at the BOTTOM of a hill, as the people had approached coming from the TOP of the hill.

At the top of the hill that the people approached from, there was NO ruins.

But Baltar is standing right next to some ruins.

Thus, different hill.


I have watched it many times. Hence my comments. Adama's house was a cliff-side dwelling, overlooking a bay, by which is what's left of a city. Sadly, we're never told which one. Come dawn, and Baltar arrives, it is the same view, only the suns are coming up. You can still see some smoking pieces of wood behind the Centurions. Baltar gloats looking over things, and he is clearly standing in what was Adama's yard.

[Antelope]

Finding twelve habitable worlds in a single star system, particularly when there would be little to no opportunity for terraforming, would be a very extraordinary solar system. Almost scientifically impossible. Plus I'd hate to do the orbital mathematics to figure out how stable the orbits and planets themselves would be.



That, my friend is why the genre is called science fiction. No matter what the odds say, the writer can make it happen. I would never expect to find such a star system in reality, but since Glen Larson wrote it I take it as a given in the show.
:salute:

[Kester Pelagius]

I hope this is in the right forum, but I'm wondering if anyone here knows the canonical answer to whether the 12 colonies in TOS were 12 worlds in a single star system, or 12 worlds gathered around a cluster of nearby stars.

If memory serves, and it may not, there is a point where Adama discusses how the ancients (not sure if he used that exact term) created the star system (again not sure if that's the exact term used) in which the colonies were placed. Or something roughly to that effect.

I'll have to re-watch the series to see if I can track that reference down when I have time. As with so much else in life I could just be mis-remembering at the moment. :)

[thomas7g]

incase anyone wanted here are my reproductions of the maps from the old show.


http://www.battlestargalactica-forum.com/post/starmap-bridge.jpg


http://www.battlestargalactica-forum.com/post/starmap-warroom.jpg

:salute:

[ernie90125]

I saw a picture of the 12 Colonies in one of the old comics. It showed 12 planets in a perfect circle orbiting around one sun. I think it was in one of the old Marvel comics...

I found this to be unlikely as I would have thought that if just one of the twelve planets were to shift ever so slightly then they would each knock into each other ? Then again it was just a comic !

[gmd3d]

I have been looking at the maps tom made, there are 5 star like icons in the map
1 on the left, 1 near the centre, 2 very close together (could be a binary) the last on on the right side of the map.

could these be the stars of a cluster, where the worlds of the colonies Existed

[Fragmentary]

Considering that humanity was a group of refugees upon having to leave Kobol, it is pretty incredible that they found a single solar system containing at the minimum, 12 habitable planets, all of which allowed for parallel physical development. And from that single solar system, with its limited resources they were able to build a space faring empire (at least capable of light speed travel) that lasted several thousand yahrens. And presumably, never in all that time did they ever find another single world that developed either a tactical or economic significance enough to carry the political weight of the 12 original colonies. That’s established by the fact that only the 12 colonies are represented in the quorum.

It seems to me that idea is pretty hard to swallow. Especially compared to the idea that each world is in its own solar system, each with its own natural resources to exploit and trade. That would also immediately establish a pretty sizable galactic territory (fictionally, not scientifically) and might help to explain how a group of basically refugees could rise to become the most powerful force in the known Galactica universe. There isn’t anything specifically saying that all 12 colonies were founded at the same time is there? Maybe Caprica came first, and from there as exploration spread out, the next colony came along and the next until in the end there were 12 powerful homeworlds and numerous smaller sub-colonies or outposts.

I just can’t believe in all that space that the Colonials traversed over millennia, none of the worlds ever grew strong enough to rate a new colonial power.

Fragmentary

[gmd3d]

I go along with Fragmentary in this, I think we should place the planets of the colonies in a cluster of closely placed stars.

I was also thinking the a solar system would be far easer to defend, rather than a cluster of star systems spread out over a distance, would be far more difficult, and could explain why the war went on as long as it did.
I.e. the colonies forces could only ever keep the fighting at a stalemate, have the colonial forces spread out
Over the vast distances of space these could be smaller ships and the battlestar would act as support as would an aircraft carrier would? As I pointed out, in my last post there seem to be 5 star/sun like icons in Tom map, what if the colonial fleet after losing some Battlestars, (and having only 5 left) could only have 1 battlestar per system?


And would a single solar system be able to sustain a growing population, with 12 planets, the need of expansion would become vital. Much easer in a multi system set up. And much better for stories.

[Dawg]

If memory serves, according to Adama's dialogue during both Saga and LPOG, the 13 Tribes all left Kobol at different times; the first twelve established the Colonies, then the 13th went for Earth.

I also believe that they'd scouted the planets they wound up colonizing, too; I don't think it was a blind emigration.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Muffit]

incase anyone wanted here are my reproductions of the maps from the old show.


http://battlestargalactica-forum.com/post/starmap-bridge.jpg


http://www.battlestargalactica-forum.com/post/starmap-warroom.jpg

:salute:

Wow Thomas!!! Those look just like my EEG printouts!!! How'd you get those??? :D :D :D



:muffit:

[thomas7g]

Tommy made them. :D

I frame capped the pilot and used it as reference.

:D

btw...that bottom one in the bottom leftish has that huuuuge spiral. That is the path Apollo indicates that ships must traverse to get to Carrilon.

:D

[Gemini1999]

Tommy made them. :D

I frame capped the pilot and used it as reference.

:D

btw...that bottom one in the bottom leftish has that huuuuge spiral. That is the path Apollo indicates that ships must traverse to get to Carrilon.

:D

Tom -

You did an excellent job! It's one of the best references that there are regarding the Colonial star system(s).

I like it!

Bryan

[justjackrandom]

Considering that humanity was a group of refugees upon having to leave Kobol, it is pretty incredible that they found a single solar system containing at the minimum, 12 habitable planets...

(let's try this again...if it shows up twice, sorry)

It would certainly be a rarity, but not mathematically impossible (maybe they had a line on the system before they left...maybe they were just looking for the perfect place, and spent their "40 years" before they found it, guided perhaps by some devine hand... or maybe they just got lucky...) First, multi-star systems are far from rare themselves, and probably outnumber single-star systems (those closest to Sol do). Second, we know (within reasonable probability) that these multi-star systems can have planets. Given what we think we know about conditions for life-bearing planets, a hypothetical model can be built that would support a 3-star system, where 12 bodies would be capable of supporting life, particularly if we assume technical help.

It seems to me that idea is pretty hard to swallow. Especially compared to the idea that each world is in its own solar system, each with its own natural resources to exploit and trade. That would also immediately establish a pretty sizable galactic territory (fictionally, not scientifically) and might help to explain how a group of basically refugees could rise to become the most powerful force in the known Galactica universe. There isn’t anything specifically saying that all 12 colonies were founded at the same time is there? Maybe Caprica came first, and from there as exploration spread out, the next colony came along and the next until in the end there were 12 powerful homeworlds and numerous smaller sub-colonies or outposts.

A single system with 12 habitable worlds, plus any other real estate that was not habitable but useable, would be a HUGE resource base, not to mention an incredible industrial base, much more so than a single-world system would be; just what you would want as a base for a star-spanning civilization. It is also unlikely that too many other systems would be able to compete, so it can be surmised that any ‘colony’ worlds would not carry the same weight as the original 12. Additionally, each colony may have colonized in its own name, so out-world systems might be represented to that colony in a planetary congress of some type.

I just can’t believe in all that space that the Colonials traversed over millennia, none of the worlds ever grew strong enough to rate a new colonial power.

It seems a bit silly to reference science fiction to justify science fiction, but I would recommend David Webber/Steve White series of books as a reference for industrial base/colonization practices. They are fairly well thought out, and are based on a war game that is also fairly well thought out (the four are Insurrection, Crusade, In Death Ground, and The Shiva Option).

just my tuppence… JJR :salute:

[Gemini1999]

The one thing about 12 inhabitable worlds all in one place would indeed be quite unlikely...

In the star system map that Tom provided, there are a total of 18 planetary bodies amongst what looks like 4 star systems. When you consider it that way, there are at least an average of some worlds that are inhabited and some that are not.

That map alone, shows us that there isn't just one star system, nor 12 habitable planets all in one place...

Best,
Bryan

[justjackrandom]

The one thing about 12 inhabitable worlds all in one place would indeed be quite unlikely...

In the star system map that Tom provided, there are a total of 18 planetary bodies amongst what looks like 4 star systems. When you consider it that way, there are at least an average of some worlds that are inhabited and some that are not.

That map alone, shows us that there isn't just one star system, nor 12 habitable planets all in one place...

Best,
Bryan

True, but the three referenced planets in the series are all around the central cluster of three stars, one of which shows an orbit around two of the stars (I also count 21 planetary bodies... :/: ) The one that intrigues me is the large body that seems to start in the middle of the trinary system and then get picked up by the system on the right.

I haven't done the math, but it seems to me that the possibility of three to five separate systems that contain planets that support life, and are in close-enough proximity to one another to make more primitive travel between them viable is no less remote than that of a single trinary system with 12 habitable worlds.

:salute:

JJR

[peter noble]

Ok, how do you all see the 12 worlds fitting in to the cosmology you're working out, bearing in mind that those worlds are named after the 12 signs of the Zodiac and that they should share some or all of the attrbutes of those signs (fire, water, earth air)?

Peter

P.S. I hypothesize that Orion (mentioned more than once in the series) is not an actual planet but the name of the system's asteroid belt which is mined and also may have entertainment complexes, shipyards etc in it.

[justjackrandom]

Ok, how do you all see the 12 worlds fitting in to the cosmology you're working out, bearing in mind that those worlds are named after the 12 signs of the Zodiac and that they should share some or all of the attrbutes of those signs (fire, water, earth air)?.

Hey Peter! I figure it’s the horse before the cart: our zodiacal designations, and their associated attributes, come down to us from the Lords of Kobol. Each tribe had a designation, (the 13th being Terra). When the 13th got here, they chose to name the constellations of the precession (the zodiac) after the 12 “lost” tribes they left behind, so that they would never be forgotten.

P.S. I hypothesize that Orion (mentioned more than once in the series) is not an actual planet but the name of the system's asteroid belt which is mined and also may have entertainment complexes, shipyards etc in it.

Never thought about it...but that is very, very cool. I like it. I'll have to go back and check the references, but do you mind if I use it?

;) :salute:

JJR

[peter noble]

Never thought about it...but that is very, very cool. I like it. I'll have to go back and check the references, but do you mind if I use it?

;) :salute:

JJR

I don't mind at all. There's references to a gambling place on Orion, Orion checks (or chips) and someone's face being "paler than an Orion moon".

I just thought Orion could be the name of the largest asteroid/planetoid in the belt.

Peter

[thomas7g]

Tom -

You did an excellent job! It's one of the best references that there are regarding the Colonial star system(s).

I like it!

Bryan
Thank you! I'm glad you like it!

[gmd3d]

This is a working idea that I am playing with for the colonial worlds, where they are and if the are in a single star system, or a multi star system as seen below. The picture is based of Thomas7g reworking of the map on the Galactica bridge.

This is a few ideas i have please add to if you can. about your ideas of the colonial planets.

The colonial star system.



[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/lordtaranis/Fleet001/Colonialstarsystem.jpg

The single red star at the edge of the colonial systems is: SAPPHO, (sapphire)+(mega sun-by the colonials that made Scorpio their home, the scorpion and their brothers the Nomens). and only one planet that is capable of supporting life, and that is Scorpio, it has many moons which contain valuable ores.

SAPPHO: has one planet capable of supporting life and that is Scorpio.
Scorpio: class H. world, suited for humans although can be very hot and arid. Large desert areas
Independent society, planet in colonial space. Tough terrain, people known as Scorpions and a nomadic
People as Borellians who inhabit the deserts areas of Scorpios. Very much laws onto to themselves.

The next star in this system is: KALLISTO, (most beautiful) an almost white star in the system and it light is seen as the most beautiful in all the system, it is also the largest star. Around this star orbits four life supporting worlds, Piscon is the most wondrous. It is a water world no large continents, so all the cities are submerged.

Libra: class B. world, colonized

Canceria: class

Aeriana: class

Piscon: class D . world, suited for humans , mainly a water world, with submerged cities

Then its the Twin stars themselves and they are called: ALCAEUS, (strength) and : ALEXIUS (defender). The colonial planets that orbit them are the wealthiest and most influential.

Sagittara: class A. world, a climate that is suited for human existence Democratic society ,most powerful and wealthy planet in colonial space. Where the seat of power is held.

Caprica: class A. world, a climate that is suited for human existence Democratic society, second most powerful and wealthy planet in colonial space.

Gemoni: class A. world, a climate that is suited for human existence Democratic society, twin moons that are capable of supporting life planet in colonial space.

Virgon: class A. world, a climate that is suited for human existence.

The last star in the colonial system is PHOTIOS, (light) a yellow star, around it orbits another three worlds, that human were able to colonise.

Aquaria: class

Taura: class

Leo: class

[repcisg]

An interesting concept, worthy of further study.

[gmd3d]

I did this quick rendering of what Scorpio system could look like...

will I DO more of the system.. this is a part of my bakground into the colonial history .. we have the name of the planets.. but not the Suns..how many planets
have moons etc..

I am going at this as if the colonies inhabited 4 systems (1 A BINARY SYSTEM) lets have Idea.. and I will map them.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/lordtaranis/Fleet001/colonies.jpg

[Lara]

Some great food for thought in this thread. Nice analysis of the map!

I like the idea of the twelve colonies spread over 4 systems at a meaningful distance apart.
It is better science to have fewer planets per star inhabited by humans: we have very specific needs.
It would allow for the loss and them rediscovery of interstellar space flight, and that isolation means a strong cultural difference between the colonies, or groups of colonies, that would be supported by the obvious novelty of the council of 12 and agreement between worlds. I believe it would also allow for scattered outposts that no one knew of: why would Capricans know where Tauran exploreers went?
also differences in technology levels, and the envy that may cause: perhaps Scorpia is backward, and Baltar resents the percieved superiority of other colonies?? The enemies of my enemies are my friends, and my new friends will show you all the folly of putting me down!?

I have always assumed the colonial charcter of each planet should somehow be referenced to the corresponding starsign: the Capricans are technologically advanced, active and forthright, whereas the Taurans would be more methodical and steady, valuing the aesthetic more highly.
It can be fun/frustrating to take other clues and try to tie this to ancient civilisations from earth: the Capricans are very Greek, and not just their names, perhaps the Taurans are Minoan (hence the Bull connexion), the Pisceans were atlantian, others could be tied up to the ancient people of South America, Asia, etc, of the bronze age, any of which were pyramid builders. We know that ancient Kobol architecture looked like ancient egypt with the use of the pyramid form for the tombs, that was then mirrored in Caprica City, and the hypostyle hall (Karnak Temple). One possibility is that it was the tomb of the founder of Caprica that Adama visited. Anyone clear on which tomb it was??

Cheers,
Lara

[gmd3d]

Thanks Lara you have some great Ideas there do you mind in i steal them :D
I will continue to design what the systems may look like..... :thumbsup:

does anyone have there own idea of the look and structure of each colony ..even as far as to it climate.
Caprica let us say is very Earth like perhaps a little smaller, better climate.

The picture I did is only one way it could look.. I will redesign it later as I have more time .. it was my first complete starsystem :D

[justjackrandom]

Interesting ideas, both Taranis and Lara.

Taranis, a question: If we are assuming 4 separate planetary systems (I use that phrase because the Colonials use “star system” synonymously with “galaxy”), how far apart are they? Any thoughts?

As for the culture of the Colonies and their associated languages, we have a few clues from the series:
1) The “standard” language has a great deal of influence from Greek, more so than English does. It also makes use of Latin.
2) Gemonese is Latin.
3) There is a Germanic influence (beyond being the root of English).

If the Colonials are speaking “Colonial Standard”, then it is a blend of languages much like English is, owing more perhaps to Caprican (Greek) than English does to Greek. Based on your description of the Colonies, maybe Sagittaran is Germanic at its root.

Great stuff... :D

JJR

[gmd3d]

justjackrandom those are the very question i would like to work out ...

our nearest star is alpha centaury (or something like that) 4 lightyears or so
but i am looking into binary systems to get ideas of distances..

[gmd3d]

If the Colonials are speaking “Colonial Standard”, then it is a blend of languages much like English is, owing more perhaps to Caprican (Greek) than English does to Greek. Based on your description of the Colonies, maybe Sagittaran is Germanic at its root.

I like that idea ALOT ,,, I want to really explore the possibiltys of the colonial planets

I got these and was wondering if some could have meaning other than ship maybe there home planets?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/lordtaranis/Fleet001/COL.jpg

[Lara]

Interesting ideas, both Taranis and Lara.

As for the culture of the Colonies and their associated languages, we have a few clues from the series:
1) The “standard” language has a great deal of influence from Greek, more so than English does. It also makes use of Latin.
2) Gemonese is Latin.
3) There is a Germanic influence (beyond being the root of English).

If the Colonials are speaking “Colonial Standard”, then it is a blend of languages much like English is, owing more perhaps to Caprican (Greek) than English does to Greek. Based on your description of the Colonies, maybe Sagittaran is Germanic at its root.

Great stuff...

JJR

So much food for thought!!

Re language,
i always assumed the dominant language we were hearing was Caprican, by virtue of what we know about the origins of the main characters, and that gemonese was quickly pointed out as being different.
Thus, the command language of the Galactica would be Caprican, as its home colony was Caprica.
Other battlestars may have had other primary languages, but just as 'english' in its many forms now dominates earth in matters technological (I believe its the official language for international flight???) and even places like Japan place high value on english as a second language, something common in Europe and Scandanavia for decades, it might not be a stretch to assume that a technologically advanced colony, perhaps the first to rediscover interstellar flight, had their language adopted widely.

However, languages would blend once the fleet assembled, and the longer they are pushed together the faster the decay on the culture. Fleet standard would be a mishmash of the dominent languages, and loss of cultural identity would be a rich source of debate an discontent.

Perhaps there are high and low forms of each language. you would expect Adama to know the old and high stuff. he had no problems with the scripts in the tombs, and obviously was well read in all the old texts.
There would be every liklihood many cultural or linguistic groups didn't make it with enough representation to remain viable.

We saw asian faces on the council.. Where do the asian cultures and languages fit into the parallels?
Perhaps we can expect to hear Khmer, or the ancient forms of chinese, or indian..
, or even South American ancient languages?
There is 12 colonies, so there is plenty of scope.
if the systems became home to related tribes, then the language and cultural groups could be grouped..

And what would Atlantian be related to?

We need a linguist to give us some basics...
:D :D

Cheers,
Lara

[justjackrandom]

However, languages would blend once the fleet assembled, and the longer they are pushed together the faster the decay on the culture. Fleet standard would be a mishmash of the dominent languages, and loss of cultural identity would be a rich source of debate an discontent.


I think you would have had such a blend long before the advent of the Fleet. This is a people that has been involved in an interstellar war for a 1000 years.
While I can see most of the worlds maintaining a cultural identity, I would expect it to be more like the diversity of such cities as New York or Boston, rather than the difference between France and Germany.

--2p
;)
JJR

[Antelope]

Since only the Galactica was capable of light speed in TOS I doubt they would have much of a connected society unless they are in one star system or very close star systems that orbit a very close center of gravity. Even a system separated by as little as one light year would probably discourage most trade and cultural similarity if only the most powerful warships moved at or beyond light speed. With no FTL jumps in TOS I am left thinking they all inhabit one star system. It may be a binary or trinary star system but only one makes sense as described in TOS unless you throw science out the window.

[justjackrandom]

Since only the Galactica was capable of light speed in TOS I doubt they would have much of a connected society unless they are in one star system or very close star systems that orbit a very close center of gravity. Even a system separated by as little as one light year would probably discourage most trade and cultural similarity if only the most powerful warships moved at or beyond light speed. With no FTL jumps in TOS I am left thinking they all inhabit one star system. It may be a binary or trinary star system but only one makes sense as described in TOS unless you throw science out the window.


Ah...but you are assuming that Galactica milieu space is like our space, and that their interaction is limited to what we know today about interacting with space. But we know that can't be the case.

Interplanetary travel in a planetary system can be handled very readily at fractions of C, but outside the system another mechanism is needed. Even if traveling at C (or beyond, in the case of the Starchaser), it would take forever to get anywhere in a stellar group, let alone to hop galaxies, which we know the Colonials are capable of, and the Cylons do as a matter of course. Thus, either there is an artificial mechanism at work, or the nature of space is different in that milieu than we would expect, or a combination of both (I prefer the latter).

TOS does not mention an FTL drive. Yet we know they travel tremendous distances with relative ease. Thus their “FTL” drive must be a part of their normal engines. Still, if limited to 'C', then how can they move around a planetary system, let alone between planetary systems and galaxies, in an expedient fashion?

1) Galactica engines generate an Alcubierre drive field. This allows rapid acceleration without acceleration issues, and sets a “top speed” based on power expenditure.
2) Space, particularly between the stars, is much more exotic than we generally accept today, made up of “seas”, “channels”, and “rivers” of dark energy. One can navigate these “waterways”, and by manipulating the drive field, can create a true acceleration many times C without actually changing the power expenditure. In other words, we can still putt along at factor 2 (.2C), but actually be traveling at 100C.

This solves a number of issues in TOS.

JJR :salute:

[Antelope]

TOS does not mention an FTL drive. Yet we know they travel tremendous distances with relative ease. Thus their “FTL” drive must be a part of their normal engines. Still, if limited to 'C', then how can they move around a planetary system, let alone between planetary systems and galaxies, in an expedient fashion?


TOS does mention light speed on one occasion, I believe during the Terra arc (?). Adama tells the crew to bring the Galactica "up to light speed". Other than spacecraft I saw no sign of any other transport means in the show. I simply take TOS at face value:

The distances traveled do not make sense based on the technology they possessed in the show. TOS, based on their technology would have never covered more than 1 light years distance.

I simply ignore the entire issue as poor science writing. They had no faster than light capability and they did travel extreme distances anyway.

As a result I don't think you can extrapolate anything in TOS scientifically to explain their planetary system. It was one star system because Larson said it was. All the planets had a breathable atmosphere and could sustain life because that is the only way to explain the entire arc ship concept. These things don't fit science but it is the story.

Science fiction can be fictional science and still be very good as we see in TOS. We don't need to do backflips to explain the unexplainable.

[Fragmentary]

I simply ignore the entire issue as poor science writing. They had no faster than light capability and they did travel extreme distances anyway.

As a result I don't think you can extrapolate anything in TOS scientifically to explain their planetary system. It was one star system because Larson said it was. All the planets had a breathable atmosphere and could sustain life because that is the only way to explain the entire arc ship concept. These things don't fit science but it is the story.
If you aren't going to take their bad science seriously, and no one should, then why are you taking the random, and often contradictory, use of star system, solar system and galaxy seriously?

The writers just used terms that would "sound" science techy without much adherence to their actually meaning. I think you're right not to try to sort them out too much. And because of that, shouldn't take at face value that all of the colonies were in one star system.

[justjackrandom]

The distances traveled do not make sense based on the technology they possessed in the show. TOS, based on their technology would have never covered more than 1 light years distance.

I simply ignore the entire issue as poor science writing. They had no faster than light capability and they did travel extreme distances anyway.


I disagree. I will say that some of the writing and (particularly) direction choices are "bad" science, but if you change your view of the universe, much of it starts to come together in a rather interesting fashion...almost as if it was actually planned that way.

You say that “The distances traveled do not make sense based on the technology they possessed in the show”. My question to you is: What technology is that?

There is an incredibly wide spectrum of tech levels demonstrated in the show. At the high end we see variable pressure energy fields, mastery of gravity (which is huge), mastery of light, mastery of plasmas, and mastery of some other form of FTL particle/wave (they do have interstellar communications that seem to be in real-time). At the low end we see CRT-style displays, analogue gauges, LED digital readouts, analogue recording devices, wired communications, and riveted construction techniques.

Why the disparity? The real answer is that the producers wanted a certain “look” for the show, but also wanted to use certain existing technologies to make everything look “high-tech” for the late 70’s.

In dramatic terms, however, this can be explained in another way that makes perfect sense: If you are involved in an interstellar war, particularly one that has lasted for 1000 years, it is logical to build to the LOWEST possible tech level to get the job done. This makes supply and repairs on distant worlds much easier. This also explains why certain vessels (Rising Star, for instance) look a bit more “high-tech” than the Galactica. They are civilian ships that aren’t necessarily constrained by such logic.

The universe is a very odd place, one we actually know very little about (What is dark matter? What is dark energy? They make up upwards of 90% of the universe, and we know almost nothing about them). If you make the assumption that the universe the Colonial’s know is very different from the one we know, then it becomes easier to look for answers about how things happen in the Galactica milieu.

Just some thoughts...

JJR :salute:

[Antelope]

You say that “The distances traveled do not make sense based on the technology they possessed in the show”. My question to you is: What technology is that?


No ship in the rag tag fleet was capable of light speed. With that being said TOS could have never taken place beyond the original star system.

[justjackrandom]

No ship in the rag tag fleet was capable of light speed. With that being said TOS could have never taken place beyond the original star system.

Again, however, you are assuming things based on our current understanding of the universe and an incomplete understanding of Colonial science. True we are piling assumptions on top of assumptions, but that is acceptable in a fictional milieu. If you assume that it is a given that no ships in the fleet travel faster than C (information from the show) and that that is a true statement, then the statement that these ships make interplanetary and intergalactic journeys (information from the show) is also a true statement. It is our current paradigm of the universe that keeps us from reconciling these two apparently contradictory statements. I suggest that in the Galactica milieu, our paradigm is incorrect, or at least grossly incomplete. Instead of trying to figure out how Galactica “science” fits (or fails to fit) into our view of the universe, we should instead be looking at what we know of their science and technology, and what it tells us about the nature of their universe.

-JJR

[Lara]

No ship in the rag tag fleet was capable of light speed. With that being said TOS could have never taken place beyond the original star system.

Yet clearly they ARE travelling great distances by the plotlines.

Poppa Larson left us no credible technical explaination for this.

Either everyone had a way of travelling at or near light speed (freighter and cylons included) or no one had it

BUT

If no one had it, they wouldn't have got out of their own back yard, and to Carillon, let alone to Kobol or beyond.

Instead we have to accept that there are HUGE holes in the tech cred of the base story line, but it is a good intellectual exercise to consider, debate, and dodge them. :D

I like JJR's take on it with the space currents. It was a good peice of speculative fiction and a masterful use of the assumption: going just beyond our own limits of knowledge without resorting to 'magic'

Cheers,
Lara

[repcisg]

I think we might want to take a look at H.G. Well’s 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, written in the late 19th century. At the time he penned the original manuscript most ships were powered by sails, a few carried auxiliary steam engines. Yet he reasoned, if one could find a way to boil water without burning coal, you might be able to build a closed system steam engine. With this a true submarine would be possible. At that time no one had ever heard of nuclear power.

The basic assumption made by Wells, was made by Larson, Roddenberry and virtually every Sci-fi writer that has put pen to paper or stroked a keyboard.

Who is to say in the next century an efficient method of moving people and cargoes between the stars won’t be found.

[repcisg]

A little food for thought:

In current theoretical Physics circles the study of cosmic strings has advanced quite a bit. It is now being postulated that these strings of super dense matter may be quite common. And being supper dense would stretch local space. In stretching space the apparent speed of light would change(increase). A ship traveling parallel to a string would appear to be traveling faster than light to an outside observer, while to those on board all would be normal. In fact the closer you approach the string the faster you would go. Pull away from it and you slow down. To use cosmic strings as a transportation system you would only need engines powerful enough to get you to a string in a reasonable amount of time and to pull you away from the string when you neared your destination.

The TOS fleet could simply be moving from string to string, covering vast distances. Only a military ship such as the Galactica would need to be able to generate high “C” numbers away from a string. For example at Terra.

Cosmic Strings would explain much about the colonial universe, an explanation not available to Larson when he sat down to write the Pilot.

[justjackrandom]

I like JJR's take on it with the space currents. It was a good peice of speculative fiction and a masterful use of the assumption: going just beyond our own limits of knowledge without resorting to 'magic'


:) (blush) Thanks.

:salute:

JJR

[justjackrandom]

Cosmic Strings would explain much about the colonial universe, an explanation not available to Larson when he sat down to write the Pilot.

A man after my own heart....

:salute:

--JJR

[gmd3d]

I think we might want to take a look at H.G. Well’s 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, written in the late 19th century. At the time he penned the original manuscript most ships were powered by sails, a few carried auxiliary steam engines. Yet he reasoned, if one could find a way to boil water without burning coal, you might be able to build a closed system steam engine. With this a true submarine would be possible. At that time no one had ever heard of nuclear power.

repcisg the "20:000 leauges under the sea" was writen by Jules Verne and not by H.G Wells who penned The Time Machine .. just thought I would tell you. :D :)



Note: Edited to add closing 'quote' tag.
BST

[SpyOne]

I think the following is fairly obvious from watching the show:

1) all of the vessels in the "ragtag fleet" are capable of a speed that lets them visit multiple solar systems (and maybe even galaxies) in a matter of weeks or months.
2) Galactica is capable of travelling much faster than the other ships of the fleet.
3) Galactica has a super-fast speed called "Lightspeed" that before the Battle of Cimtar had not been used in a very long time, and that apparently burns a great deal of fuel (see "Living Legend").

4) Given that the speeds reached in 1 are probably FTL, "Lightspeed" must not mean travel at 1*c.

This leaves the question of how far, both in lightyears and more importantly in time, it is between Colonies.



Back to the map, I have a question about the possable measurement of distance.
A very long time ago, I took Geometry. I faintly recall from that something about "mapping functions", and that there are two different ways to graph a mathmatical function. One of those was on "graph paper", which I think we all know is covered with little squares. Most of the maps we are used to use this principal. The other, however, used special paper with a bunch of concentric circles and rays spreading out from the center of the page.
Now imagine that we are going to graph "cosine X" for posative integers.
On normal graph paper, we just number the bottom of the page with 1, 2, 3, etc. Then we grab a scientific calculator, put in "1", press the "cosine" button, and put a dot above the "1" on our graph in the spot that coincides with the value we just got. (0.9998 if you care.)
BUT WAIT! You may have noticed that your scientific calculator has some special modes. Instead of using "degrees" as we did above, you can set it to give the answer in "radians".
I have no idea what that means anymore, but IIRC that is what you use if plotting on the funky graph paper.

And this is relevant because: the grids behind the maps look like the funky paper. So, I'm thinking that what we're seeing might be somehow convertable into a more standard graph of boxes with an X, Y, and Z axis.
I just have no clear memory on how to do that anymore.

Does anyone out there have a clue about this?

[gmd3d]

spyone wrote:
Does anyone out there have a clue about this?

Nope??? :/: you lost me after "mapping functions", :LOL: :LOL: But I get what you are talking about. This is what I get for missing Geometry.

[justjackrandom]

4) Given that the speeds reached in 1 are probably FTL, "Lightspeed" must not mean travel at 1*c.

This leaves the question of how far, both in lightyears and more importantly in time, it is between Colonies.


Easy answer is: no one knows. It was never made clear in the series. We can speculate, but that's about it.


And this is relevant because: the grids behind the maps look like the funky paper. So, I'm thinking that what we're seeing might be somehow convertable into a more standard graph of boxes with an X, Y, and Z axis.
I just have no clear memory on how to do that anymore.

Does anyone out there have a clue about this?

I am about where you are in this. I don't have the skills to really figure it out, but I do assume that what we are looking at it a two-dimensional representation of three-dimensional space.

--JJR

[Charybdis]

This is an old thread that is fantastic to think about! I wanted to ask a question for those who have studied the Colonial star map...

how many 'inner' planets are there and how many 'outer' planets are there? We do know from the show itself, that Caprica, Virgon and Sagitara are inner planets, but are they the only ones?

Can the star map tell us? What do you all say?

[WarMachine]

Well, for some reason I don't think I ever ran across this thread, but I cannot see any of the maps, as the links appear to be dead :?:

When JJR and I worked on the tech bible for the 14th Colony (14/CTB), our assumption was a single, trinary system, with several Colony worlds being moons of gas giants ('GG').

As to the radiation questions, in RL it is true that inside a certain distance, GG radiation is lethal to Humans - however, outside the band, lethal radiation falls off precipitously, leaving aside the issue of GG-moon Van Allen belts.

Although I don't believe we ever speculated on how there came to be 12 habitable planets in the 14/CTB, I have speculated elsewhere (have to find that link) on the existance of a "prep team" that went ahead and "fixed" (i.e., "terraformed") the rest of the 12 Colonies' worlds...

[peter noble]

I think the other show uses a trinary system for it's explanation of the 12 Colonies.

[WarMachine]

That's the angle Joss Wheedon took with Firefly - all of those 70-ish planets were in one star system that was at least a binary.

[gmd3d]

http://a.imageshack.us/img139/9307/starchartdesktoppf5.th.jpg (http://img139.imageshack.us/i/starchartdesktoppf5.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
This is the only image I could find

[peter noble]

From the Battlestar Wiki:

[Senmut]

Considering that humanity was a group of refugees upon having to leave Kobol, it is pretty incredible that they found a single solar system containing at the minimum, 12 habitable planets, all of which allowed for parallel physical development. And from that single solar system, with its limited resources they were able to build a space faring empire (at least capable of light speed travel) that lasted several thousand yahrens. And presumably, never in all that time did they ever find another single world that developed either a tactical or economic significance enough to carry the political weight of the 12 original colonies. That’s established by the fact that only the 12 colonies are represented in the quorum.

It seems to me that idea is pretty hard to swallow. Especially compared to the idea that each world is in its own solar system, each with its own natural resources to exploit and trade. That would also immediately establish a pretty sizable galactic territory (fictionally, not scientifically) and might help to explain how a group of basically refugees could rise to become the most powerful force in the known Galactica universe. There isn’t anything specifically saying that all 12 colonies were founded at the same time is there? Maybe Caprica came first, and from there as exploration spread out, the next colony came along and the next until in the end there were 12 powerful homeworlds and numerous smaller sub-colonies or outposts.

I just can’t believe in all that space that the Colonials traversed over millennia, none of the worlds ever grew strong enough to rate a new colonial power.

Fragmentary


Given that the technology of Kobol was presumed to be beyond even what the Colonies possessed on the eve of Cimtar, it is entirely possible that, upon arrival, they used it to Koboloiform the worlds they found, making the Cyrannus System capable of supporting the refugees, on each planet. Then, once settlement was achieved, they destroyed their technology, as Adama says in LPOTG, and the settlers had to climb back up from mud huts and digging sticks, to where they were when the Holocaust happened.
Just my take.