Ukraine opposition wins landmark victory - new vote

[Rowan]

KIEV (AFP) - Ukraine's supreme court ruled that contested presidential elections were tainted by fraud and must be repeated, handing a historic victory to pro-Western opposition forces challenging a ruling establishment beholden to Moscow since Soviet times.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1504&e=1&u=/afp/20041204/ts_afp/ukraine_vote_041204005754

[bsg1fan1975]

its about time that this gets settled!

[Gunstar Aries]

:thumbsup: I agree with bsg1fan1975! 'Bout damn time. After Chernyobol, why would anyone in Ukraine want to be under Moscow's thumb?

Thanks for posting that Rowan...

[bsg1fan1975]

they need some stability and this uproar over a tainted voting process isn't going to help them try and achieve their goals if the old guard is in place.

[Archangel]

I saw it on the news. FANTASTIC!!! :D

[Antelope]

What if for the sake of argument the election was free and fair and the pro-Moscow candidate won the vote 52 to 48 percent next time. I now think we are in a spot where only an opposition win would be acceptable whether it was real or not.

Most of the reasons stated why the opposition "won" are the same reasons I hear in America that explains how Kerry really won, fraud and exit poll results.

Note: I think the opposition did win from what I read but see this as a bad precident for the Ukraine no matter which way it ends.

From what I read about a third of the country is Russian not Ukranian and wishes they were not separated from Russia. How come the rights of the Ukrainians to forcibly keep the Russian part of their country is OK but the reverse is not. This is starting to look like the Balkans where the West preordains the results and then villifies the other side.

I hope the Ukrainians get what they want but I hope we don't stick our noses into another civil war especially one with strong Russian interest.

[Archangel]

Antelope

You and I have disagreed alot over a couple of subjects, but trust me on this: The majority of native Ukrainians do not want to have that 'close' of relationship with Moscow. There are still a lot of hard feelings stemming from the Soviet era, and they are not likely to be forgiven in the near future.

As for the Russians in Ukraine, they are holdovers from that era when Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, it stands to reason that they wish that Ukraine was still part of Russia.

[Antelope]

Antelope

You and I have disagreed alot over a couple of subjects, but trust me on this: The majority of native Ukrainians do not want to have that 'close' of relationship with Moscow. There are still a lot of hard feelings stemming from the Soviet era, and they are not likely to be forgiven in the near future.

As for the Russians in Ukraine, they are holdovers from that era when Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, it stands to reason that they wish that Ukraine was still part of Russia.

We probably mostly agree on this one. I think the U.S. media however is overlysimplifying the situation in the same way they oversimplifyed the Balkans.

From what I read the majority of the Ukraine's population likes independence and wants to be closer to Western Europe. In the recent election it is estimated close to 60% of the population feels and votes that way despite the official results that say otherwise.

The Ukraine however is a slavic nation with deep ties to Russia. Throughout history the Ukraine has primarily been a part of Russia. The capital of Ukraine, Kiev is considered the birth place of the Russian people and civilization. The Ukraine is also home on leased land to the Russian Black Sea fleet and a place (the Crimea) that Russia was willing to sacrifice much to keep.

Over a third of the population are Russsians not Ukrainians and about 40% of the population in recent surveys support reunification with Russia. This amounts to nearly 20 million people in a country of about 50 million. The 20 million Russians make up a majority of the population in about 1/3 of the land area.

The 20 million Russians would like at a minimum to break off the 1/3 of the country they are the majority in and reunite with Russia.

It's not as black and white as the media portrays. It always amazes me that the closer a country is to the English channel the more people think each ethnic group has a right to live in a smaller country without other ethnic groups but the farther you go East the more Westerners think everyone should live in one big "diverse" state.

I hope they revote in free and fair elections and all sides respect the outcome. If the Russians want to leave I hope that part of the Ukraine can also have free and fair elections on the subject and both sides will again respect the outcome.

I have no desire for the U.S. to get involved politically, financially, or militarily in an internal Ukrainian political battle or civil war, especially on the doorstep of Russia, one of the few countries that can still annihilate us if it wanted and has expressed strong real national interest in the area (the protection of the rights and freedoms of 20 million of their ethnic brothers and former citizens and access to its Black Sea Fleet homeport).

The post-Cold War Czechoslovakia would be a good example of what the Ukraine could learn from.

[Archangel]

First, I must say that I have a very low opinion of the American news media. They seem to me more concerned about good ratings than they are about telling the whole story.

Even if Kiev tells Moscow to take a hike, Russia's lease of the Black Sea Fleet port can still be honoured, much the same way that the US maintains Guantanamo in Cuba (I wonder how much Washington is paying Havana for that, anyway.). It isn't a big problem.

Although Ukraine has those deep ties to Russia, the majority --but not all-- of those ties stem from conquest through the centuries. I don't know, but that isn't something that I would really care to continue if I were in Kiev.

Admittedly, there would be a lot of logistical problems for Ukraine if they totally cut the old ties from Moscow, but in time they would be worked out if both sides were smart and didn't try the typical political game of 'I want more so I can show MY people that we are so much better than you!' which seems so prelevent in diplomacy these days.

[bsg1fan1975]

well the revote should give the final word on this subject!

[Antelope]

well the revote should give the final word on this subject!

Only if the opposition wins and the Russians accept it.

What do you think is going to happen if the government in power now wins even after these so called anti-fraud fixes are put in place?

The opposition will say it was stolen again along with the West. The government and the Russians will say it wasn't. The Russians spent a lot of money to help the Ukraine government win at the ballot box so some think they can win this legitimately if they get their word out.

International monitors watched the Venezuelan election and did not say it was fraudulent even though the Western press says it was. The same may well happen in the Ukraine.

People assume a revote means the opposition wins. The West is now expecting a rubber stamp for their preferred candidate. I don't know who will win but I know this: If the government wins again even if its legitimate the opposition will not accept it nor will the West.

Note: I think the opposition is most likely to win and probably did win the original election but I also think that voters in that part of the world might be intimidated to tell how they really voted to a stranger conducting "exit polls" so I wonder how reliable the so called exit polls are and where they took them. We also see in the West that liberals can put a lot of people into the street but that does not necessarily mean those in the street reflect the average voter. Older voters especially in the former Soviet world tend to support the old order. Most young people, your prime opposition demographic tend not to vote unless they have strong political passion just like here.

With a third of the population Russian and a good percent of the Ukrainians older people and many Ukrainians more worried about a civil war or conflict with Russia than they are closer ties to the West it is conceivable that the government can win or did win the election.

[Rowan]

I don't care which "side" wins so long as it's an honest result I'm prepared to accept what ever they want for themselves - it's their country! :)

[bsg1fan1975]

I don't care which "side" wins so long as it's an honest result I'm prepared to accept what ever they want for themselves - it's their country! :)
same here. I just think that it is good that they addressed the issue and decide it for themselves what is best!

[Rowan]

same here. I just think that it is good that they addressed the issue and decide it for themselves what is best!

Exactly!! :thumbsup: :D

[Antelope]

Here, Here!

Let them decide it for themselves good, bad, or ugly!

If they refuse to accept a verdict among themselves may we not step into their family fight.

[bsg1fan1975]

that's right.

We already got ourselves into too many other pies we had no business being in, why add more problems on top of the ones we cannot or should not handle