Yassar Arafat Dead At 75

[Megoman]

I'm currently watching coverage of his passing on FOX News.

[shiningstar]

I'm just glad he's gone. Now if only the palestinion people can get some of that
money his wife and he STOLE from them for years and years and years. :eek:

[Senmut]

:bounce: :corona: :bounce:

[Darth Marley]

I'm just glad he's gone. Now if only the palestinion people can get some of that
money his wife and he STOLE from them for years and years and years. :eek:

Actually, no, Suha made the PM sign a pension guarantee for $22 million/yr for her and her daughter.

[thomas7g]

I think Arafat convinced his people to back him in a violent movement to bring them a democratic state. But when it came down to the last step he couldn't give up HIS absolute power to let a democratic state happen. So he let it fall back into violence.

I hope they find peace now.

[shiningstar]

I think Arafat convinced his people to back him in a violent movement to bring them a democratic state. But when it came down to the last step he couldn't give up HIS absolute power to let a democratic state happen. So he let it fall back into violence.

I hope they find peace now.

So do I. A pity about that Prenup though. :(

[Archangel]

Now if that other roadblock to peace, Ariel Sharon, would retire or something...

[shiningstar]

Now if that other roadblock to peace, Ariel Sharon, would retire or something...

HE is not going anywhere. The Isrealies won't hear of it :/:

[Antelope]

Now if that other roadblock to peace, Ariel Sharon, would retire or something...

What a crock!

The Palestinians could have peace tomorrow if they simply quit fighting and accepted it. The same can be said for every other Muslim nation still technically at war with Israel. When Sadat of Egypt and the former King Hussein of Jordan decided to have peace with Israel the next day they were at peace. The formalities were worked out later. Tomorrow the Palestinians could have 95% of what they say they want.

The reality is that at this time what the Palestinians really want is to kill every Jewish man, woman, and child in Israel or at least to force them into the sea or exile.

Arafat is burning in hell today with his legion of suicide bombers, dead terrorist, along with the past Jew slaughterers like Hitler who inspired him.

What is pathetic is to see people mourning his passing. If I was to have any shred of respect for the UN that went out the window when they lowered their flag to half staff to honor that murderous thug.

Six million Jews murdered in World War II and still the world never learned.

[shiningstar]

Wonderful post Antelope! FANTASTIC!

[Archangel]

I find it interesting how people can consistantly villify the muslims and canonize Isreal. :/:
They laying down of arms and forgiveness has to happen on BOTH sides. As long as the Isreali military is willing to slaughter innocent civilians in their (deserved) eradication of terrorist leaders, they are no better than those terrorist leaders.

[Antelope]

I find it interesting how people can consistantly villify the muslims and canonize Isreal. :/:
They laying down of arms and forgiveness has to happen on BOTH sides. As long as the Isreali military is willing to slaughter innocent civilians in their (deserved) eradication of terrorist leaders, they are no better than those terrorist leaders.

The Israelis could kill every man, woman, and child in the West Bank and Gaza tomorrow if they wanted but they don't because they are a civilized people. It's that simple. Over a thousand Israelis have died since the start of the so called "intifada" because Israel continues to try to try to work with these people.

The Israelis are not "slaughtering" innocent civilians. The people of the West Bank and Gaza willingly hide the terrorist in their midst. A recent poll of Palestians showed that 57% supported attacking Israel with mortars and rockets from the West Bank and Gaza even if Israel 100% withdrew from both areas.

The Israelis have nothing to ask forgivenes for. War ends when both sides quit fighting or one side is totally defeated. Israel has not wanted to fight since the day of their independence. They are at peace with all their neighbors that want peace. The killing will end when either the Palestinians decide to quit killing or either all the Jews or all the Palestinians are dead. The ball has been in the Palestinian court for decades.

When the Palestinians blow up woman and children trying to ride a bus or eat pizza they villify themselves. When the Israelis put down a mob of rioting Palestinians intent on killing them with only rubber bullets they canonize themselves.

[Archangel]

That's a rather simplistic view of a complex situation. How long has the Isreali government went back and forth on turning the occupied territories over to the Palistinians. How many new Isreali settlements went up in these territories during peace talks, How many helicopter gunships does it to kill a terrorist in a single house. This is the basis of my arguement that the Isreali/Palistinian problem is caused by both sides, not just the one, as you are apparently saying. I'm not saying that Isreal bears all the responsibility for this bullfelgercarb, but along with the Palistinians, they bear about 50%.

[Antelope]

That's a rather simplistic view of a complex situation. How long has the Isreali government went back and forth on turning the occupied territories over to the Palistinians. How many new Isreali settlements went up in these territories during peace talks, How many helicopter gunships does it to kill a terrorist in a single house. This is the basis of my arguement that the Isreali/Palistinian problem is caused by both sides, not just the one, as you are apparently saying. I'm not saying that Isreal bears all the responsibility for this bullfelgercarb, but along with the Palistinians, they bear about 50%.

You are blaming the victim.

The West Bank was Jordanian territory until Jordan attacked Israel during the 1967 war. Jordan renounced their ownership of the West Bank because they themselves don't want to deal with their own former citizens. The same thing can be said about the Gaza strip in reference to Egypt. Both these territories were staging areas in Arab states used to attack Israel. After the last Arab-Israeli War neither country wanted the people back in a peace deal with Israel. Israel tried to give them independence and peace but the then leader of these people, Yassir Arafat refuse to take it because it is not enough to rule Gaza and the West Bank. They want the Jews driven into the sea which the Palestinian "right of return" argument is all about.

I don't understand how killing murderers is somehow equal to when a Palestinian terrorist sneaks into an Israeli civilian home and murders a 6 year old girl. When an Israeli kills a Palestinian child its an accident they wish they could avoid. When its an Israeli child its an intentional cold blooded murder celebrated in the Palestinian territories. There's no 50/50 here.

It is not a complex situation. The new leader of the PLO could tomorrow announce an end to the war on Israel. Those who continue to fight against Israel in the West Bank and Gaza could be arrested by the Palestinian Authority. All Israeli troops would be withdrawn. The Palestinians would go about their lives. That's all the Israelis have been asking for YEARS now. What they get is empty promises and handshakes while the PLO sends out the next batch of killers.

The only reason this war won't end is because the newest leaders of the Palestinian people will be another batch of cold blooded killers intent on exterminating the Jews or will live in fear of losing their own lives if they make peace because the majority of their population is so hate filled and filled with blood lust that peace is not an option for them.

In the words of the former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir, "We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their own children more than they hate ours."

[The 14th Colony]

May he rest in pieces.

[Senmut]

A "Palestinian State" is nothing but a Trojan Horse to relight the ovens of Auschwitz.

[warhammerdriver]

Archangel is right. BOTH sides need to abandon their hardline postitions and work toward peace together. Otherwise, there will be no peace in the Middle East.

As far as Arafat is concerned, I feel bad for his family. Otherwise, good riddance.

[thomas7g]

I believe ArchAngel is right too. Sorry, ant. But I to believe the problem lies on both sides.

Though I do believe Arafat could have ended it. You can't really blame the Palestinian people for not making peace. The ordinary Palestinian wants peace. But there was only one real voice for the Palestinian people. And frankly he couldn't make the final step from his absolute leadership of the Palestinians to the democracy he promised where he would lose power.

The killing of Palestinian children no longer horrifies the Israelis. They don't care that palestinian chidlren die in clashes. The brutal treatment of Palestinians is deemed as wholy justified.

True there are monstrous crimes committed by a small group of palestinians and supported by all of them.

But BOTH sides have lost any feeling of humanity for the otherside to the point where the killing of children is acceptable.

Its that bitterness drives Israelis actions to be more brutal. And Palestinian actions to be more horrendous. Which just cycles in to escalating violence.

[Darth Marley]

I gotta go with the pro-Isaeli lobby on this one.

Arafat could have had 97% of his "demands" and walked on the deal.
After he ditched the Barak offer, Sharon won the elections, and the alternative to negotiated peace is what he got. His bluff got called, and his people suffer even now for that foolish decision.

[shiningstar]

I'm with Darth on this one. Arafat could have made peace long ago. Isreal gave,
gave, and gave. And the only thing they got in return was betrayel and deceit.
And NOOOOOOOOOW they have to give up MORE? WHY? It won't be enough for
the 'PALASTENIANS' until every JEW and CHRISTIAN are burning in the gas ovens.

[Antelope]

What else do you want the Israelis to offer?

At this point the only thing they won't give the Palestinians is Jerusalem as their capital and the right for the Palestinians to move into Israel proper so they can outnumber them. Other than that Israel has agreed to EVERY other Palestinian demand. This is what Arafat gave up.

Anyone that expects the Israelis to give the Palestinians anything more than they already offerred only helps to sign their extermination order.

The average Palestinian as surveyed by U.S. polling firms do NOT want peace. 57% in a recent poll said they support attacks on Israel proper even if there was a 100% withdrawal of Israeli troops.

Note: I am not Jewish.

[shiningstar]

The "Extermination Order" of the Jews{{and the Christians {if they thought they could
get away with it} is PRECISELY what the 'they' want.

[warhammerdriver]

I'm not saying either side is right.

I am saying that both sides live by the "eye for an eye" philosophy---literally. They both need to back away from that philosophy or nothing will ever change.

Frankly, I'm tired of my tax dollars going over there and getting no return. (This is not a democrat/republican issue. It's been going on for decades under both parties.)

This all started over land. The Palestinians had it, the UN took it away and created Israel for the Jews to have a homeland. The conflict has mutated over time, but if the UN came along and took MY land and gave it to someon else, I'd fight too.

[BST]

Has anyone seen the ST:TOS episode, "Let This be Your Last Battlefield"?

If so then, you probably understand the reason for the question.

If not, I would humbly suggest watching it.

[warhammerdriver]

Has anyone seen the ST:TOS episode, "Let This be Your Last Battlefield"?

If so then, you probably understand the reason for the question.

If not, I would humbly suggest watching it.

Is that the one where the aliens are half black and half white but the colors are reversed side to side between them?

[BST]

Is that the one where the aliens are half black and half white but the colors are reversed side to side between them?


Yes. :)

[Antelope]

This all started over land. The Palestinians had it, the UN took it away and created Israel for the Jews to have a homeland. The conflict has mutated over time, but if the UN came along and took MY land and gave it to someon else, I'd fight too.

Jews and Arabs are Semetic people with a common ethnic origin. Hebrew and Arabic are both descendened from a common language Aramaic. The Romans dispersed many Jews from Israel about a generation after the death of Christ. From that time forward both Jews and Arabs lived in the land now called Israel, Palestine, and throughout the Middle-East. Eventually Israel/Palestine became part of the Ottoman Turkish Empire. During that time Jews and Arabs lived in the land. In the 1800s many of the Jewish descendents that had been dispersed throughout the Western world started a movement to move back to Israel/Palestine because of persecution they faced in the countries they lived in.

The Ottoman Empire was defeated in World War I and Britain militarily took over Israel/Palestine. Britain then recived a League of Nations mandate to rule the area for the time being. Jews continued to migrate back to the area.

After World War II it was decided to grant independence to the former mandate territories. At that time time the area was populated by large numbers of Jews and Arabs. The Jewish people wanted a Jewish state. The Arabs wanted an Arab state. The area was partitioned into two states one Jewish, one Arab.

The other Arab states decided to destroy Israel. They requested the Arabs in Israel leave in order to make Israel a "free fire zone". Many Palestinians in Israel proper left. The Arabs lost the war and Israel was not keen on letting the enemy sympathizers back in.

The current West Bank was part of Jordan and was never occupied by Israel until Jordan joined the other Arab nations in attacking Israel after the 6 Day War was already underway in 1967. The Gaza strip was also never part of Palestine/Israel as it was an Egyptian territory occupied later also.

After Israel became independent the Arab states began extreme persecution of Jews within their respective countries. As a result over a million Jews who lived in Muslim countries were forced to emmigrate. Israel accepted all these Jewish refugees. Today half the population of Israel is made up of Jews who either used to live or descended from Jews who lived in Arab countries at the time of Israel independence.

With a large number of Arab countries no Arab nation is willing to settle the Arabs descendents of those who left Israel at the start of the Israeli War of Independence. These Arabs are religiously, linguistically, and ethnically the same people as their fellow Arabs in Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. Today Jordan is a majority "Palestinian" population country ruled by a foreign tribe, the Hashemites from the Arabian peninsula.

The bottomline is that Israel has no more land to give. It can't give up Israel proper now that it is the homeland of the Jewish refugees from the Arab world that can never return. It would give up both the West Bank and Gaza to either Jordan or Egypt if they'd take it but they won't. They would give them independence tomorrow if they could deal with a Palestinian government that could stop the terrorist from going into Israel.

The day the Palestinians can control their internal affairs the Israelis won't be forced to send in troops to disrupt terrorist groups. It's that simple today. The Palestinian Authority has plenty of money and men under arms to control the territories if they want. For internal Palestinian Authority reasons they choose not to reign in the terrorist. Until the PA decides to change all Israel can do is conduct business as usual and wait for a man of peace to arise and take control of the Palestinian people. Israel has no partner for peace like they had with Sadat and now Mubarek in Egypt and the Kings of Jordan.

Israel today has good relations with many Muslim states to include Egypt, Jordan, Morrocco, and Turkey. You can't however force Israel to make peace with people who don't want it.

[Senmut]

Antelope, you impress me with your knowledge. So little of that about in this debate, it seems. The one thing I noticed, pardon me, is your bit about language. Hebrew and Arabic both descend from the West Semetic branch of the Semetic family tree, which includes Phoenecian, "Canaananite", Ugaritic, as well as Aramaic, rather than descend from Aramaic. Hebrew and Arabic remain as the most-spoken Semetic tongues still in use. Only a few thousand still speak Aramaic (a lyrical, musical sounding language, if you've ever heard it), or Akkadian. In Ethiopia, another Semetic tongue, Amharic, is spoken in remote regions.
As to the "Palestinians", remember that they were by and large the workers brought in to work the big estates for their absentee Turkish landlords during the Ottoman Empire. After the British kicked the Turks out, they were left adrift, but no neighboring Arab nation wanted them back. The Arab press of the time makes mention of this, but the Arab governments did nothing. Jordan eventually ended up killing several thousand of them, when they tried to overthrow King Hussein many years back. Before that, they assassinated his father, King Abdullah the First for "oppressing" them. In Israel, they have been offered citizenship, but most have refused, preferring to live in refugee camps and plot mass murder. they are, simply put, a plague that no one wants, and they have made themselves such.
Ain't the Middle East wonderful? I'll take Caprica!

[Antelope]

Antelope, you impress me with your knowledge. So little of that about in this debate, it seems. The one thing I noticed, pardon me, is your bit about language. Hebrew and Arabic both descend from the West Semetic branch of the Semetic family tree, which includes Phoenecian, "Canaananite", Ugaritic, as well as Aramaic, rather than descend from Aramaic. Hebrew and Arabic remain as the most-spoken Semetic tongues still in use. Only a few thousand still speak Aramaic (a lyrical, musical sounding language, if you've ever heard it), or Akkadian. In Ethiopia, another Semetic tongue, Amharic, is spoken in remote regions.
As to the "Palestinians", remember that they were by and large the workers brought in to work the big estates for their absentee Turkish landlords during the Ottoman Empire. After the British kicked the Turks out, they were left adrift, but no neighboring Arab nation wanted them back. The Arab press of the time makes mention of this, but the Arab governments did nothing. Jordan eventually ended up killing several thousand of them, when they tried to overthrow King Hussein many years back. Before that, they assassinated his father, King Abdullah the First for "oppressing" them. In Israel, they have been offered citizenship, but most have refused, preferring to live in refugee camps and plot mass murder. they are, simply put, a plague that no one wants, and they have made themselves such.
Ain't the Middle East wonderful? I'll take Caprica!

Thanks for the interesting language info. It is amazing what I learn here!

It is sad that to a large extent the Jews and Arabs spring from the same tree but don't see themselves as cousins. In general all of humanity are cousins if we go far enough back.

Most Arabs do not recognize any of the borders in the modern Arab world. Most believe these borders are artificial and that there should be only one Arab state covering all Arab lands. The Gulf War impacted the views of many Arabs especially in Kuwait and the Arabian peninsula.

The Palestinians who are the main victims of the Arab regimes do not see the rulers of most Arab states as legitimate. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, the Palestinian workers many of them highly educated collaborated with the Iraqis using the invasion as an opportunity to take advantage of the native Kuwaitis who employed them. As a result of this the Palestinians workers were deported as a security threat from Saudi Arabia during the war and later from Kuwait after the war. What happened since 1991 in this area I am not sure. Supposedly one result of the Gulf War was an increased sense of nationalism versus Arabism in Kuwait and the Arabian peninsula states.

Much of the conflict within the Arab world that affects us today is a direct result of the corrupt and unequal distribution of wealth and power among and within the various Arab states. We are starting to see some signs this may change. Good things don't get news coverage but we see a young democracy in Algeria and the start of democracy in Kuwait and Qatar. Let's hope democracy can take root in Iraq. If the Arab nations could fix themselves they wouldn't need to find a scapegoat in Israel or the West for themselves.

The new Palestinian Authority leader does not believe in armed struggle. Unfortunately the Palestinians are about to have elections and at this time the leading contender to win the vote is an outright terrorist in jail in an Israeli prison for murder.

[Senmut]

Thanks for the interesting language info. It is amazing what I learn here!

It is sad that to a large extent the Jews and Arabs spring from the same tree but don't see themselves as cousins. In general all of humanity are cousins if we go far enough back.

Yes, but remember than blasted Middle-Eastern mindset. Ishamael, though the older son, was driven out in favor of Isaac. The descendants of Ishamel have never forgotten this "insult' to this day. Under the laws of those days, Isaac was legally the eldest, because his mother was Abraham's first wife. Even though ishmael was born earlier, because his mother was a concubine, Ishamael did not legally rate as "firstborn". All very weird and complicated to us, but to them, a basis for continuing hate.

Most Arabs do not recognize any of the borders in the modern Arab world. Most believe these borders are artificial and that there should be only one Arab state covering all Arab lands. The Gulf War impacted the views of many Arabs especially in Kuwait and the Arabian peninsula.

They call this dreamland of theirs the umma, or the community. As we have seen, it seems an idea worth killing for, for some.

The Palestinians who are the main victims of the Arab regimes do not see the rulers of most Arab states as legitimate. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, the Palestinian workers many of them highly educated collaborated with the Iraqis using the invasion as an opportunity to take advantage of the native Kuwaitis who employed them. As a result of this the Palestinians workers were deported as a security threat from Saudi Arabia during the war and later from Kuwait after the war. What happened since 1991 in this area I am not sure. Supposedly one result of the Gulf War was an increased sense of nationalism versus Arabism in Kuwait and the Arabian peninsula states.

Oddly enough, Arafat started out as a pipeline engineer working in Kuwait, before he turned to terrorism. Maybe terrorism pays better, if the billions he has been said to have looted are real. But, everywhere they go, the "Palestinians" cause nothing but trouble. Of course, Saudi Arabia is extremely racist. if you don't belong to the right tribe, forget it!

Much of the conflict within the Arab world that affects us today is a direct result of the corrupt and unequal distribution of wealth and power among and within the various Arab states. We are starting to see some signs this may change. Good things don't get news coverage but we see a young democracy in Algeria and the start of democracy in Kuwait and Qatar. Let's hope democracy can take root in Iraq. If the Arab nations could fix themselves they wouldn't need to find a scapegoat in Israel or the West for themselves.

It has always been so, there. Corruption and graft are far, far older than Mohammed. Just imagine what could be done if those oil shieks spent a few billion on irrigation, instead of palaces for their harems? Imagine all the new jobs, and the better lives people could have. BUT, that might erode their power.
One exception is Yemen, now that it has been put back together after the civil war. The ancient dam of Marib has been rebuilt, once more creating a huge resevoir that provides water for agriculture. Farms have sprung up, springs flow, and so does INCOME. people's lives are improved. The rest of the Arab world ought to try it.

The new Palestinian Authority leader does not believe in armed struggle. Unfortunately the Palestinians are about to have elections and at this time the leading contender to win the vote is an outright terrorist in jail in an Israeli prison for murder.
Then the new "leader" will die. Someone will accuse him of betraying the cause, and he'll be shot or blown up by another sicko fanatic.
The road goes ever, ever on...