Religion and the new BSG

[137th Gebirg]

Something struck me as odd and I don't recall it being discussed anywhere.

When Number Six is explaining the reasoning behind her actions to Baltar, both before and after the attacks, she obliquely mentions the fact that she did what she did because "God" told her to. The Cylon at the Ragnar Anchorage postulates to Adama that perhaps the Cylons have evolved a new form of "soul", effectively making them the new "chosen people" in the universe. This gives the Cylons new motivations behind their need for conquest - not just because they're EEE-vil, but because there's a more thought-out and complex manifest destiny that has been built into their next-generation programming by unknown agents.

Knowing the backstory of the TOS Cylons, with the Imperious Leader being the embodiment of Iblis - the original Cylon "God" - is it entirely possible that, instead of the warlike reptillian Cylons having been manipulated by Iblis, the Colonials themselves were duped by a "fallen angel"-type character, leading them to build pseudo-sentient robots. The purpose of which was to ultimately overthrow the humans and bring them under this neo-Iblis' dominion, akin to his motives from TOS. Moore has already stated openly that he plans to re-visit some of the better TOS stories. Could this be one of them, along with the Pegasus/Cain thread? Many people have complained about the lack of spiritualism in this new version of BSG. Methinks that Moore is just taking a little bit longer to explore and build into it, possibly even taking it to a deeper level than the original did. Would this introduce some Colonial cult-like religion of Iblis/Satan worshippers? Could this group of rabble-rousers that Richard Hatch's new character is supposed to be in charge of be minions of Iblis, seeking to overthrow the Colonial powerbase and attempt to bring the rag-tag fleet under Iblis' control? This may be why Richard agreed to join the new cast, as he knows that Moore planned all along to follow the original plots. Maybe I'm reaching, but it would be kind of interesting.

Thoughts?

[137th Gebirg]

Anyone?

C'mon! I know some people have thought about this...

:wtf:

[Darth Marley]

Of course I think the new show has spiritual elements in it. But I like the new show.
Most of the complaining about it that I see is rather reflexive. It is not TOS so many will grab every difference to rationalize a dislike.

[PlaidSquadron]

I am not certain the new show contains "spitituality" in the same sense the old one does. The new show shows religion and spirituality in a negative light - the Cylons using God as the excuse for mass-murder and William Adama using the old texts to lie to his people (he clearly does not believe they are accurate, yet he knows the people of the fleet must, or he wouldn't use it)

The TOS used the religious aspects to explain the hope of the people, where the mini plays on the negative aspets.

[Antelope]

You have some great speculation and insight. For those of us who enjoyed Moore's mini and think he may be using TOS and BG80 for themes the whole religious concept seems of much interest.

Moore supposedly wanted to make Battlestar Galactica more relevant to today's society. The cylons of TOS can be viewed as an archetype based on the Soviet Union as we perceived it in 1978. This is no longer relevant today. America's current enemy is Muslim religious extremists. They are capable of unspeakable brutality in the name of their god. Moore's cylons are patterned after them. The human halocaust of the mini is a 9/11 attack taken to its logical extreme. The war in Moore's universe is a religious war although at this point the colonials probably don't or barely realize it.

The mini is actually more overtly religious than TOS at this point. Remember that in Moore's universe we are only at the point of TOS at the end of Saga of A Star World. Religion and myth were just starting to make their appearance in Lost Planet of the Gods. The cylons in Moore's mini had a well constructed view of an afterlife, believed they had souls, believed they could hear from God, and believed that man no longer deserved to have a soul. As you stated they believe they are the new "chosen people".

Moore has stated an interest not just in Living Legend but in using the "ships of lights" concept. I think we will see as Moore's series goes on that we have a struggle between a greater good and evil just like we saw in TOS. I think a Satan type figure will turn out to be the leader of the cylons or like Count Iblis in TOS a Satan type figure may have started things in motion.

I see in this show that we also may be seeing a secular people find their religion through their tribulations. To some extent this may be similiar to the bible story where an Israelite people lost their religion to decadence and then God "allowed" their nation to be destroyed by the Babylonians. It was as a lost people taken away from their homeland that they again find their faith.

There is some thought that the cylons (or an element within them) are sparing the Galactica and rag tag fleet and herding them somewhere. If this is the case it may be that God is working through some part of the cylons to move humanity back to the rightful ways.

Maybe the often quoted line by the purist that "I was routing for the cylons" may in a convoluted way be exactly what Moore wanted at this point. The colonials are unworthy of their existence just like Sodom and Gomorrah or the days before the flood. God smited them but spared a small handful lead by a rightous man (or woman) who will start anew.

[Dawg]

You simply prove a point that we "purists" were trying to make early on, Antelope.

In Moore's universe:

Cylons = Al Qaida = God's chosen

Colonials = Americans = decadent imperialists who don't deserve to live.

Not in my universe. Not in TOS's, either.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Archangel]

America's current enemy is Muslim religious extremists. They are capable of unspeakable brutality in the name of their god.

It's not just Muslim extremists that commit acts of brutality in the name of God. Christianity has had it's fair share of extremists as well throughout history: From the Inquisition through the Crusades right up too what Northern Ireland has been going through throughout the last century (Catholics AND Protestants).

This is supposed too be a War on Terror, not a War on Terrorist Muslims!

But I do agree with the rest of what you said. :D

[Antelope]

History is filled with the religiously righteous who then go on to commit unspeakable acts whether it be Muslim, Christian, or Pagan. Today it seems that radical Muslims have the corner on the market for the moment.

I do know that Moore specifically mentioned 9/11 as an inspiration to the Moore cylon halocaust.

I believe that saying we have a "War on terrorism" is as stupid as saying we have a "War on RPGs" or a "War on roadside bombs". Terrorism is a tactic not a nation or ideology. We currently are in a war against a radical faction of Islamic believers supported by specific nation states. Calling this a "war on terror" is just a politically correct way of pretending that things aren't really what they are.

In your Northern Ireland reference Britain did not fight a "war on terrorism" but a war against a fanatical Irish nationalist group called the IRA who used terrorism as a tactic. You can point to various national or religious insurgencies throughout human history that use terrorism as a tactic to achieve political ends they can not accomplish in a conventional battle.

[Winemaster]

I have a big problem with human created Cylons. Moore needs to slip in that the technology came from elswhere and was "worked on and improved by the Colonials"

[braxiss]

You simply prove a point that we "purists" were trying to make early on, Antelope.

In Moore's universe:

Cylons = Al Qaida = God's chosen

Colonials = Americans = decadent imperialists who don't deserve to live.

Not in my universe. Not in TOS's, either.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:


:salute: well said, very well said :thumbsup:

[Eric Paddon]

The cylons of TOS can be viewed as an archetype based on the Soviet Union as we perceived it in 1978. This is no longer relevant today..

I reject the argument that that concept is not "relevant" today. For people like me, the idea of the Soviets and the Nazis before is that some conflicts can and should be seen in terms of a good/evil struggle with no shades of gray, and since I happen to believe that also applies to the current post-9/11 struggle that means that the Cylons of TOS are *more* "relevant" to today than ever.


"The mini is actually more overtly religious than TOS at this point."

And I also reject that argument. It is not "overtly" religious because there is not a single character in the Moore univesre who lives his life based on the principles of a religious based set of values. Stardoe's "prayer" scene in the context of everything else we see about her is the foxhole moment of someone who doesn't take it seriously and let it define her life like we saw it define Adama's life when he assumed the Moses type role with his "Let the word go forth" proclamation in SOASW.

"The cylons in Moore's mini had a well constructed view of an afterlife, believed they had souls, believed they could hear from God, and believed that man no longer deserved to have a soul. As you stated they believe they are the new "chosen people"."

And to make the only characters in the miniseries who express such sentiments the bad guys, that means that Moore is putting himself on an anti-religious footing that is totally contrary to the essence of TOS.

When Moore talks of wanting to look to TOS for additional insight, as far as I am concerned he is just BSing the fanbase and trying to sucker them, just like his gimmick casting of Richard Hatch is nothing more than an attempt to BS the fanbase.

[Antelope]

Cylons = Al Queada = God's Chosen:
This would be in the mind of the cylon just as it is in the mind of the Islamic extremist. This would NOT imply they are God's chosen people or that Moore intends them to be.

Soviets/Nazis: War on fascist states will never end. In that sense the relavance of the TOS set up is always relavant. Baathist Iraq, under Saddam Hussein was just another fscist state. The lack of relevance to today's audience is only in the fact that we do not feel threatened with destruction by a fascist state at this moment in time. There is no Soviet Union or Nazi Germany on the Earth today. The closest you can get is China and I doubt anyone goes to bed at night today worried about a surprise Chinese nuclear attack on America. The fact that by design Moore's cylon scenario is more relevant to an audience in 2003 does not detract from the scenario of TOS which aired in 1978-1979.

If you want to believe SOASW has more overt references to religion then Moore's mini I can't stop what you believe even if it has no basis in reality. At this point in Moore's universe you have no idea what the religious beliefs of the main non-cylon characters are except Kara Thrace. In the mini we have colonial prayer, a speaking role from a person who is some form of priestess, an obviously religiously themed funeral ceremony, and a discussion of the soul. None of this occurred in SOASW. In SOASW we do not know the religious beliefs of any of the characters. The religious overtones of TOS do not positively manifest themselves until we see Lost Planet of the gods.

We don't need to take a 180 degree stand on everything in the mini.

When Moore says he wants to borrow things from TOS I assume he wants to make his versions as best he thinks he can so it has as wide an audience as possible so he can make as much money doing this series as long as he can. I don't think he sits up at night figuring out how he is going to sucker anyone.

[Eric Paddon]

Cylons = Al Queada = God's Chosen:
This would be in the mind of the cylon just as it is in the mind of the Islamic extremist. This would NOT imply they are God's chosen people or that Moore intends them to be..

When there is NO meaningful counterpoint to this from the other society and we get instead a blatant indication of how little religion plays in the role of society, the only thing that ends up being obvious is that religion is for extremists or losers, and is only there as a ceremonial crutch to give some gullible people something to believe in if they feel desperate.

"The lack of relevance to today's audience is only in the fact that we do not feel threatened with destruction by a fascist state at this moment in time. There is no Soviet Union or Nazi Germany on the Earth today."

The evil ideology and the nature of a good/evil struggle without the rubbish of how "we brought it on ourselves" that is at the crux of the Moore miniseries is what makes TOS relevant to today and Moore utterly irrelevant.

"If you want to believe SOASW has more overt references to religion then Moore's mini I can't stop what you believe even if it has no basis in reality."

It has a lot more basis in reality (especially in light of how this series developed as envisioned by its creator and how it was consistent with what we saw in Saga) than any of your baseless arguments that Moore is looking to TOS for inspiration in his writing will ever have (like the "Sheba is Starbuck" bit)

"In the mini we have colonial prayer, a speaking role from a person who is some form of priestess,"

Who is there as a ceremonial prop and placed in (along with Stardoe's prayer bit) only after Moore got a lot of heat over the blatant anti-religious tone of his script.

"When Moore says he wants to borrow things from TOS"

And this only makes him more reprehensible. He jettisoned everything about TOS in his miniseries and reveled in how different and better it was, and now he wants to rely on TOS as his crutch to compensate for his lack of originality. If he wanted to rely on TOS he should have kept his hands off the property and allowed it to be continued by those who appreciated it.

[Antelope]

Again if you have to go to the entire TOS series to support your argument not just SOASW it shows the invalidity of your point. We have not seen Moore's series so we do not know what overall impact religion will have either good or ill. Don't let your hatred of Moore and the mini blind you to rational discussion.

There is an element of "we brought it on ourselves" in SOASW as well. Baltar, a COLONIAL member of the council of 12 knowingly brought upon the destruction of colonial society. During Adama's talk with Apollo in which he defends his vote for Sire Yuri we see the shadow of a society that WAS great but descended into decadence. Later the naive and decadent Yuri again wants to give the colonials up to the cylons.

I often wonder from the post I read if some hard core Moore-haters are more upset that Moore didn't use TOS themes are more upset that he may have or will use TOS themes. If Moore bases much of his series on TOS it is hard to keep the hate going and still believe in the reality some are constructing (Moore is an evil man who intentionally harms TOS fans.).

I still don't understand why people who hate everything about the mini seek out or start mini specific threads. Everyone's free to do what they want but I will never understand it. It seems like an exercise in frustration to me.

[Darth Marley]

This topic come up with some regularity in BSG fandom discussions, even without reference to the RDM mini.
Every so often I have to point out that from a certain literalist, fundamentalist point of view, BSG TOS could be construed as being blasphemous in several ways.
The notion that life was created "out there" is a good place to start.
The notion that in this story, the "real" god created man somewhere else conflicts with rigid interpretation of Judeo-Christian scriptures.
The notion of beings of light acting as angels, and that we may someday ascend to their level has some notions that grate against a conventional interpretation of scripture.

I find it fascinating that certain conflicts with established religion are easier to overlook than the notion that the "bad guys" have a religion as well as the good guys.

And also, in many of the old parables, it is often a "bad" actor that is driving the moral point home.

[PlaidSquadron]

I think its kind of pointless to argue religion in TOS vs the mini. Fans of the old show have 20+ episodes to draw from and the mini has only 1 (2 if you count the days seperate)

Until the new ones are seen, the mini may or may not have anything religious - we just don't know.

From my point of view (based on the mini I now vaguely remember) the Cylons were the only ones to talk of God. I don't recall the Kara "prayer" and the priestess only had one line near the end. How will it play in the new series? Beats me. I just know I was uncomfortable with the minis tone (IMHO) that religion is somehow bad. If it was meant to show that blind faith to any religion is bad, it didn't register with me. What I got out of it was:

Cylons - extremest religion-causing problems
Humans - religious beliefs used to dupe the masses

I didn't like either potrayal.

[Eric Paddon]

Again if you have to go to the entire TOS series to support your argument not just SOASW it shows the invalidity of your point. .

Wrong. I previously cited the religious aura that surrounds Adama taking the Moses role with his "Let the word go forth" proclamation, followed by how he presents his plan for finding Earth and his rebuke to the Council at Carillon for turning their backs on the "principles of the Lords of Kobol." Adama, the center of the Fleet in terms of what it and Colonial Civilization represents, is a man of faith who understands the need to rise to a great challenge when called on, even as he wishes the burden had not come over him. There is no such counterpart to this strength of faith in Moore. Stardoe's "prayer" is not indicative of what guides her life given her contemptible behavior in so many other areas.

There is an element of "we brought it on ourselves" in SOASW as well.

Not in the way of the miniseries. In TOS the human failure is the result of lack of vigilance in waging the struggle in a just and noble cause. Human civilization as a force for good in assisting those who had been oppressed by the Cylons is taken for granted. In Moore, there is no indication of human civilization representing a core group of values ("We love freedom, we love independence, the right to question") that make their cause just and indeed the mere existence of a "political prisoner" in the regular series further demonstrates how this is not the case in the Moore vision. Call it what you like, but Galactica it isn't.

"I often wonder from the post I read if some hard core Moore-haters are more upset that Moore didn't use TOS themes are more upset that he may have or will use TOS themes."

I resent his hijacking the series according to a vision that is not like Galactica at all because of the supposed badness of the original and what it repreented, and then deciding to hijack those points again to twist into his distorted worldview that makes up his series universe.

"I still don't understand why people who hate everything about the mini seek out or start mini specific threads. Everyone's free to do what they want but I will never understand it. It seems like an exercise in frustration to me."

In my case, I didn't start this thread, I responded to what I regard as some very dubious arguments. I have seen you attempt to argue Ron Moore having a greater knowledge of TOS when he did the mini than the factual record indicates, and this seems to be another attempt to state that.

For myself, the frustration will only end when (I hope) this series dies a quick death and then I can celebrate.

[BST]

This topic come up with some regularity in BSG fandom discussions, even without reference to the RDM mini.
Every so often I have to point out that from a certain literalist, fundamentalist point of view, BSG TOS could be construed as being blasphemous in several ways.
The notion that life was created "out there" is a good place to start.
The notion that in this story, the "real" god created man somewhere else conflicts with rigid interpretation of Judeo-Christian scriptures.
The notion of beings of light acting as angels, and that we may someday ascend to their level has some notions that grate against a conventional interpretation of scripture.

I find it fascinating that certain conflicts with established religion are easier to overlook than the notion that the "bad guys" have a religion as well as the good guys.

And also, in many of the old parables, it is often a "bad" actor that is driving the moral point home.


You make many good points, here, Darth.

Now, a thought or two of mine --

I don't view the religious aspects of TOS as being especially problematic when viewing the show from the standpoint of a "non-Earth civilization". Even though, in TOS, it is stated that the Colonies and Earth share a common root, i.e., the Tribes of Kobol, is it not acceptable that each civilization could (and probably did) evolve with many divergent beliefs and customs? What may seem blasphemous, to a present-day, real-life resident of Earth may be completely acceptable to a being from a star system millions of miles away. In other words, to watch a show about a people, from another part of the galaxy, I 'suspend reality'. I don't judge everything said or done on present-day Earth norms.

I view the religious aspects of the Mini-Series, in terms of the Cylons, as a means of giving legitimacy to their "jihad". I definitely view their assault on the humans as a holy war. Both, from what was said and done on the show, as well as the inspiration that Moore flat-out stated in his interview with Sandy (1st Moore interview with CA). He stated that he used 9-11 as a back-drop for the Cylon attack and said, to quote him, "read into it what you will". By his own inference, it said to me that he was portraying America in the guise of the Colonies and Al-Qaeda as the Cylons. I view the Cylon "religion" with much more importance to the show than the Colonial "religion" which has the look and feel of being a "last minute addition" to the script.

In the end, I see the Mini-Series as being more Earth-related than TOS. It's almost as if the Mini-Series was a story about "us", several hundred years into the future. TOS, OTOH, gives the impression of a people with whom we may share some commonality but, are different from us, nonetheless.

[Antelope]

"I still don't understand why people who hate everything about the mini seek out or start mini specific threads. Everyone's free to do what they want but I will never understand it. It seems like an exercise in frustration to me."

In my case, I didn't start this thread, I responded to what I regard as some very dubious arguments. I have seen you attempt to argue Ron Moore having a greater knowledge of TOS when he did the mini than the factual record indicates, and this seems to be another attempt to state that.

For myself, the frustration will only end when (I hope) this series dies a quick death and then I can celebrate.

The factual record is what it is. The opinions of two individuals who read the same Moore interviews are another story. Your opinion is that Moore is ignorant of TOS. It is my opinion reading the exact same interviews that he is well versed in TOS and BSG80. Since neither of us can read his mind we both are only speculating.



Just look at the new series and the mini as any other TV show you don't care about and don't even think about. Let go of the hate. It isn't worth your effort. Leave the Moore world talk to those that are interested. We can all meet and be friends on all the TOS threads. Some threads cross both worlds. If you don't see it, just let it go.

[Dawg]

I can speak to your baseless and inflammatory accusations, antelope, since I, along with several others, helped found CFF.

Yes, we are TOS fans and disliked the mini - but nowhere in the CFF agenda is a campaign against it. Our agenda is focussed 100% on supporting a continuation movie. It's been stated, over and over again, and to have you suddenly pop up and question our motivations is extremely offensive.

And the CFF campaign is not over - we have a few hundred dollars left to raise to buy a color ad in Daily Variety - something no fan group has done before.

So before you start tossing out baseless accusations like that you'd damn well better get your facts straight.

Keep it up and you'll find out exactly what a mad Dawg can do.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Antelope]

This topic come up with some regularity in BSG fandom discussions, even without reference to the RDM mini.
Every so often I have to point out that from a certain literalist, fundamentalist point of view, BSG TOS could be construed as being blasphemous in several ways.
The notion that life was created "out there" is a good place to start.


If you are a literal Christian and raise your kids that way Battlestar Galactica can definitely conflict with your belief system and put ideas in your kids head that you don't want them to have.

I am not a literal Christian but think the hardest thing to square with reality is the thought that human life on Earth originates on another planet. This conflicts totally with human and non-human evolutionary science as we know it today. As a viewer I simply accept the premise as is and suspend reality on that issue.

To me the Judeo-Christian and evolutionary science concepts of human origins could square with the show if Kobol in Lost Planet of the Gods is in fact Earth. Since the images seen are obviously the pyramids at Giza it is entirely possible that Kobol was Earth. Earth simply became unable to support life and humanity migrated to the stars. 12 colonies became the colonial world and the 13th became Terra, which is the Latin based language word for Earth anyway. Even in English I have seen that the that the word Terra is sometimes interchanged for Earth. I am sure if they wanted they could square the name Kobol with Earth. It could be an acronym for a future Earth based government or even the name of some future country that came to have dominion over the Earth.

I never had a problem with the angels since their appearance may simply have been in a form we could understand. The war between Satan and God was alive and well in TOS as it is in the bible.

[Antelope]

Deleted by Antelope

:wtf: :erk: :duck:

[Eric Paddon]

The factual record is what it is. The opinions of two individuals who read the same Moore interviews are another story. Your opinion is that Moore is ignorant of TOS. It is my opinion reading the exact same interviews that he is well versed in TOS and BSG80. Since neither of us can read his mind we both are only speculating.

Antelope, I am sorry, but this is nonsense. In his own words, he stated that in a 25 year span since 1979 he had watched a grand total of 1 and 1/2 episodes of Galactica, and that is not the mark of someone "well-versed" in TOS. That is the mark of someone who is in fact quite ignorant of it, and his ignorance showed aplenty elsewhere in his interviews, and in those of his fellow producers who couldn't recall such mundane things like (1) the strong roles played by female characters such as Athena and Sheba in their assignments (2) the nature of the character relationships without all the dysfunctional family junk that Moore all but lifted from a bad film like "In Harms Way" etc. etc. etc. This is a trend where subjective "opinion" must give way to an objective truth when the evidence is very overwhelming on that point.


I do notice over time that many of the hard core anti-Moore crowd are motivated in their desire to kill the new series.

I plead guilty to wanting it to fail and fall on its astrum. I believe that it's very existence is a demeaning insult to 25 years of attempts to get TOS some recognition as a fine series, and its continued existence means there is zero chance of the kind of continuation we have waited 25 years for only to get screwed at every turn from ever happening. I will rejoice the day it is cancelled, and my only hope is that it happens as soon as possible. But that is only my personal opinion of the matter, and proud as I am of it, there is no conspiracy connected with those who are organizing the CFF efforts since I have seen for the most part a general attitude that success of Moore helps their efforts which I do not agree with.


Just look at the new series and the mini as any other TV show you don't care about and don't even think about.

Sorry but Ronald Moore is the one who chose to slap the name "Battlestar Galactica" on this and then have his minions go out of their way to run down TOS at every possible turn, and now that he needs TOS fanbase to let his show survive because the ratings were not exactly the kind that can sustain a long-term show, he's sounding notes of borrowing TOS plot lines that I know he wasn't familiar with when he wrote the miniseries and resorting to gimmicks like casting Richard Hatch, which I will never be convinced is anything other than a stunt to try and mute the voices critical of his effort and calling for a continuation.

Ron Moore in effect sabotaged 25 years worth of hopes and dreams for a true continuation, and so long as his fake version remains in production he won't get any slack from me, and that is a view I hold no apologies for. It isn't "hate" it's a matter of principled conviction, and one that I and many others are proud to have. This is not about hating individuals as people and wishing for bad things to happen to them in their lives, it is about hating an impersonal project that has no feelings to hurt and hoping that it will not survive to supplant TOS in terms of what Battlestar Galactica is supposed to be about.


Leave the Moore world talk to those that are interested. We can all meet and be friends on all the TOS threads. Some threads cross both worlds. If you don't see it, just let it go.

Antelope, you are the one who keeps trying to push non-existent linkage between TOS and Moore and championing what I regard as an untenable position that he is somehow well-versed on TOS when the factual record shows otherwise. Most of the times when I feel compelled to comment on Moore stems when I see these false premise linkages pushed, because I think they don't help matters. You can choose to like or dislike Moore's effort, but it is not rooted in TOS it is a pastiche of Star Trek attitudes and bad movies like "In Harm's Way" with a few basic premises and character names from Galactica slapped in that could have been picked up by anyone who read a paragraph summary of the pilot movie. There is no deep thought on Moore's part for TOS concepts, and should they emerge in future episodes I have little doubt they will be twisted again to serve the interests of a most decidedly un-TOS agenda that permeated the miniseries.

Those are my views, and you may call them harsh, but they are my convictions on this subject and I am sticking to them. That means if you want to push the idea that there are linkages between Moore and TOS, be prepared to defend what you say from those of us who know that that just ain't so.

[Dawg]

I am not accussing anybody of anything. I do however wonder about the mindset of what is going on. The reason I question this is very simple. I see many people who hate the mini and the unseen Moore series who open thread after thread and reply after reply on the subject that accusses Ron Moore or anyone who likes his work of all kinds of horrible things. I see stated over and over again that Ron Moore is an arrogant SOB who intentionally is destroying Battlestar Galactica. I see these same people saying how they will not watch his show and even if they did would do it on video as not to increase the ratings. We do have a stealth campaign to tell people not to watch so as to keep the ratings low so the show can be destroyed. Once it is destroyed we can "celebrate".

Yes, you are accusing. You're accusing an honorable man of being two-faced about his aims.

There is one aim of CFF and its leadership: showing support for a TOS movie. Period. If you also liked the mini and are looking forward to the series, great. More power to you. We don't care. We have a very narrow view: if you liked TOS enough to want to see a continuation movie made, then you're part of CFF, too. The mini or the upcoming series, no matter how well it does or doesn't do, isn't part of that equation.

Our personal views of the mini vary. These, however, are non-issues where CFF is concerned.

The CFF needs every penny it can get from every Battlestar fan. We are all regularly asked to help, primarily by Commander Taggert. People including Ron Moore and yes even myself and many other TOS/mini fans sent money. The very leader of this contribution drive turns around and says horrible stuff about Ron Moore as a person and says that anyone who likes the mini is not a real Battlestar Galactica fan. Saying we are not Battlestar Galactica fans is about as condescending and insulting as you can get on a Battlestar site. Maybe in your mind the person and the organization are two separate things but to me the leadership of an organization tends to reflect the thoughts and values of the organization. It is not funny or reasonable to read a thread where mini fans (as opposed to the mini) are attacked followed a few replies later saying they don't want to help.

I actually follow that. But I point out again that the CFF effort is a very narrow one: support of a continuation movie. Period. Our personal opinions of the mini or its creators do not enter into that one iota. CT has answered that eloquently over at CA; I suggest you refresh your memory.

My question is this: The goal of CFF is to show Larson et all that there is still interest in TOS Battlestar Galactica. Don't you think that has been accomplished by the sale figures of the box set, the multiple web sites dedicated to TOS, the written hostility to the mini and Moore at conventions, and most importantly the success of last years scifi remake?

The sales figures are the largest piece of the equation to the suits so far. Web sites might tickle their interest, but not much, I think. What they're waiting for is the grass-roots indications that there is support for such a film: the TOS sales figures, certainly, but there needs to be more. The CFF ads are aimed at that "more". There can never be too much positive influence.

I just question now if the goal of CFF is to have a big ad saying we love TOS Battlestar Galactica in the hope that when the series tanks as many hope the Continuation doesn't go down with it? Are we trying to differentiate the properties? Is this to some extent an ad that says behind the lines: We don't want the Battlestar you are giving us?

The goal of CFF is to have a big ad saying we love TOS BSG. Period. And to hopefully get letters written to Glen and Tom in support. Period. End of story. How many times to we have to say that the success or failure of the mini/series has no influence on our goals?

I guess my bottom line on this subject is that you can't ask and take peoples money and then insult them tomorrow and expect them to sit idly by and think you are benevolent.

There are not enough purist around to make the goals of CFF happen. If you get those ads it will be thanks to ALL Battlestar Galactica fans. I am sure some say CFF is separate from its leaders but the handle that appears with hat is hand is the same handle that kicks you in the butt and laughs about it.

I wouldn't want to see what a mad dog can do. Over the last year I have seen throughout the Battlestar Galactica web world what happens when a TOS only fans gets in a hard argument with a TOS/mini fan. The TOS/mini fan gets cut out of the board because they are always the insulting party in the eyes of management. Now that you are a co-owner at cylon.org I can see what you are implying.

Is CFF an organization for ALL Battlestar Galactica fans? Does CFF believe that people who enjoy the mini and TOS are Battlestar Galactica fans? If the owners of CFF do not think TOS/mini fans are real Battlestar Galactica fans why should we feel like we are part of the CFF team? Is the CFF really the TOS only fan force or would you ask Count Iblis for his money and then kick him in the butt once you cashed his check?

Since you're simply repeating yourself here, I'll answer the last. CFF is an organization for all BSG fans who want to see a continuation movie. If you want to see a continuation movie, you're part of CFF. You've given money, antelope, then you're part of the organization. You're a valuable and valued part of CFF. The fact you're looking forward to the new series is immaterial to me, as part of CFF, as part of this board, as co-owner of CA (and I resent the implication, after so long being part of this community, that I'd allow that to dictate whether I'd ban somebody).

The success or failure of the CFF campaign won't be known, possibly for a year or more. This is an effort to show what kind of support there is for the movie.

Period.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[BST]

This thread is being closed until further notice. I will post a more detailed reason shortly.

BST

[jewels]

The factual record is what it is. The opinions of two individuals who read the same Moore interviews are another story. Your opinion is that Moore is ignorant of TOS. It is my opinion reading the exact same interviews that he is well versed in TOS and BSG80. Since neither of us can read his mind we both are only speculating. Innacurrate when the man himself stated in a Q&A fall of 2002 that he'd only watched the pilot before writing the mini. He was viewing the rest of TOS in Oct. 2003 when he was researching plots and storylines for his series, he sought out more background then. When he wrote the mini he had no freaking idea there was a Pegasus for example. By last fall he was looking into using the Living Legend storyline.

I do notice over time that many of the hard core anti-Moore crowd are motivated in their desire to kill the new series. I am starting to wonder if the timing and scale of the colonial fan forces efforts are more about attempting to kill the new series as it is about actually getting a continuation. Your opinions seemed shared by some that obsess about what Moore is doing and at the same time are on the vangard of the so called "Continuation" effort. Since the stated goals of the colonial fan force has already been accomplished in the past year I wonder what the real goals of those leading the effort are.

Wrong. Timing of Colonial Fan force has nothing to do with trying to kill Moore's series. Not even related. Only the Bonnie Hammer has that sort of control. Or maybe Sky pulling their funding, which I'm sure they are contractually bound to. CFF has everything to do with convincing a certain Mr. Glen Larson that we want HIS show back. He and Hollywood studio financiers are all that truly matter (though I want Tom DeSanto involved so bad I can visualize he Richard and Dirk standing together on a soundstage.).

Don't take this the wrong way but when everyone is asked to help the effort but the man in charge (I'm not referring to you) still thinks everyone not a purist is not a real Battlestar Galactica fan it does make you wonder what is really going on. I would advise you that being single-mindedly focused on your objective is not a sign of a conspiracy. We graduated from conspiracy theory a long while ago around here. Those of us, for whom only TOS is Galactica on TV, simply have a different goal in our sights. Others see that the two can coexist and they can enjoy both. Please sit back and enjoy that in a few short months you will have your series. In all practicallity it may take our movie 2-3 years.

BTW: If you make another snide accusation toward a member here (all the CFF folks are), you may find yourself on a forced vacation. That comment was pushing the envelope.

Just look at the new series and the mini as any other TV show you don't care about and don't even think about. Let go of the hate. It isn't worth your effort. Leave the Moore world talk to those that are interested. We can all meet and be friends on all the TOS threads. Some threads cross both worlds. If you don't see it, just let it go.

That reads condesending, Antelope. When I could care a flip less about the success or failure of RDM's series, seeing you saying "let go of the hate" is you perpetuating a myth that is not true of the majority of fans. The myth is an insult and causes me to speculate about your motives here. I can tell you as a long term mod, be careful of how you say something, communication is not as clear in writing as it is in person when body language and expression add volumes of nuance. And the losers in these sort of statements are the people who are fans of both shows: gives them a distate for discussing either.

Jewels

whoops, BST hung out the closed sign while I was composing. :duck: he has the last word.

[BST]

Thanks, Jewels! :thumbsup: :)

Now, as promised, I've got a few things to say and I may NOT be as eloquent as Jewels!

When debating an issue, the primary responsibility of ALL participants is to DEBATE the ISSUE, NOT PERSONALITIES!!

The idea is that opponents in a debate are encouraged to gather facts and present arguments. The logic of the argument will indicate which will be the prevailing view.

This particular topic was moving along at a nice pace, with various ideas and points of view being shared....UNTIL

...a remark was made questioning someone's integrity and intentions.

A quick reply was made, in an effort to defend that "someone" ; however, no "defense" should have been necessary. The question about someone's integrity and intentions were NOT and are NOT part of this discussion. Furthermore, the person, whose integrity and intentions were questioned, has been accused, without provokation and without basis or merit. The person, who we all know as Commander Taggart, has stated PUBLICLY and FOR THE RECORD what the intent of the Colonial Fan Force is and how the monies collected will be spent. The contributor(s) know that before contributing. To allude to something sinister being fomented is insulting.

To be absolutely clear on the issue, this type of "conversation" WILL NOT BE TOLERATED at Colonial Fleets. The only problem remaining is that the accusation is still available for public viewing, therefore, to set the record straight, a public apology should be issued, linking to the accusation.

This can be considered a WARNING!


BST

[BST]

I'm re-opening this thread, which deals with the issue of "Religion and the new BSG".

;)

Happy debating!

[thomas7g]

Getting back on the subject....


I'm not going to argue this, but try to place it better in context.

I would like to remind people of two things that influenced the original into becoming a more faith based show than its sucessor. First of all is Glen Larson, who is a VERY religious man. His show reflects his strong beliefs. The show has no real obscenities. It has nothing really obscene, not by the good guys especially. And his faith is reflected in that the show pulls alot of elements from his religion. This Adam's Ark is basically Moses leading the Jews out Egypt were they were persecuted and toward the Promised Land. The Carrilon segment was basically the retelling of the jews, who when they reached the base of Mt Sinai declared themselves delivered from their persuers and did fall back into sloth and sin. But Moses saved them and lead them back on the path toward the Holy Land.

2nd, The show reflects a very popular book of its day, Chariots Of The Gods, which linked our history, religion and mythology to ancient visitations from outer space. And BG follows that weird connection between aliens from outer space, and godlike religious forces.

The new show really hasn't defined its stance on religion. It has the colonials believing in a lie. While the cylons have some undefined sort of religious view. But right now we really don't know where it is going with this.

:D

[Darth Marley]

Tom, the first part of the last post I have no dissenting or elucidating comment on.
But;

2nd, The show reflects a very popular book of its day, Chariots Of The Gods, which linked our history, religion and mythology to ancient visitations from outer space. And BG follows that weird connection between aliens from outer space, and godlike religious forces.

This is true, but the point of a previous point of mine in this thread is that these suggestions can be concidered blasphemous from a strict legalistic and fundamentalist viewpoint. Von Daniken's use of OT scriptures to suggest that some of the biblical apparitions were aliens does seem to take an element of the divine out of the God of the Old Testament.
The notion (memory may be bad here...long term loss of short term memory) from Hand of God that humanity may evolve into godlike beings of light just as those beings crawled up the evolutionary ladder to a divine-like state could for some rob the divine of some of its splendor.

The new show really hasn't defined its stance on religion. It has the colonials believing in a lie.

Now this meme I have to disagree with in stronger terms, speaking of the second sentence. Cmdr. Will Adama is presented in what could from their context be called an athiest. He does not believe the old sriptures that tell of the 13th colony of Earth. The "lie" was that the location of Earth was the highest secret of the Fleet. In real world terms, it is like an athiestic politician professing belief to gain votes, or perhaps to comfort the populace after a crisis, and then goin on to say that the highest secret of government was the location of the Ark of the Covenant, or the Holy Grail to "lead" the weary survivors on a quest to distract them from their plight. The Colonials in the audience may be quite devout themselves, and their faith is not a lie, but is faith held either strongly or weakly.

While the cylons have some undefined sort of religious view. But right now we really don't know where it is going with this.

Nothing here that I disagree with.
But I would point out the old Abe Lincoln speech that was dusted off in the recent clash of cultures between the Western world and Dar al Islam.
The speech pointed out the dichotomy of both of the opposing sides in the American Civil War praying to the same God for victory in a righteous cause.

[thomas7g]

I wasn't specifically debating anyone's position in this argument. I was just adding background material. (for the most part)

Though I noticed and agreed with how the beliefs of BG could conflict with some people's fundamental religious views. After all... we still get that one couple standing on the roadway protesting every christmas. Since SANTA and SATAN have the same letters.
:D

But I stand by my statement. Agreed, the colonials are honest in their believing, but that belief is still a lie.
:)

[Darth Marley]

The belief is not a lie if Earth really exists.

[thomas7g]

I still consider that a lie.IMO. If you know something is false when you tell it, then its a lie. Therefore it IS and always will be a lie. And people who believe it are following a lie.

And that's the premise Moore has set up.

If I was a famous basketball player who was a free agent and setting competing teams against each other seeking the highest bid...And if I told the lousy Clippers that I would most definitely sign with them to raise the other bids even though I NEVER will in a million years sign with the Clippers...then everyone who believes me is believing a lie. Even if by some weird freak turn of events I am forced on the Clippers.

And besides that, Husker didn't just say that there was an earth. He said that he as one of the highest military leaders was privy to the location of earth.

[137th Gebirg]

I still consider that a lie.IMO. If you know something is false when you tell it, then its a lie. Therefore it IS and always will be a lie. And people who believe it are following a lie.

And that's the premise Moore has set up.

If I was a famous basketball player who was a free agent and setting competing teams against each other seeking the highest bid...And if I told the lousy Clippers that I would most definitely sign with them to raise the other bids even though I NEVER will in a million years sign with the Clippers...then everyone who believes me is believing a lie. Even if by some weird freak turn of events I am forced on the Clippers.

And besides that, Husker didn't just say that there was an earth. He said that he as one of the highest military leaders was privy to the location of earth.It's not a lie if it's not a lie. I know this is circular but consider this:

What if Adama DOES know that Earth exists and the information was imparted to only Commanders of the fleet by the President. At the time that Roslin discussed this with Adar, she was a beauritic subordinate. She would never had been privy to this information due to its sensitive nature (possible future plotlines for a conspiracy here). Once she became president under extreme circumstances, there was no one left to give her such privileged knowledge EXCEPT Adama.

It was made painfully clear that Adama does not trust Roslin. Nor does Roslin trust Adama, as implied by her question to him towards the end of the second ep, asking if he was going to stage a military coup. If he is the only one left with the Earth knowledge, I think Adama would give that knowledge to Apollo before he imparted it to Roslin. So, to buy him time to sort things out between him and Roslin in this new fleet that he had just become responsible for (because of Roslin), he told Roslin what he thought she wanted to hear.

I suppose some folks here would think that RDM could never think that far in advance and that I'm giving him too much credit. Although I will always be more of a fan of the original than the neo, I still maintain that some people aren't giving him enough credit.

Only time will tell.

[Eric Paddon]

"I suppose some folks here would think that RDM could never think that far in advance and that I'm giving him too much credit. Although I will always be more of a fan of the original than the neo, I still maintain that some people aren't giving him enough credit."

Yes, I think you are giving RDM way too much credit, because that whole argument you're putting forth makes no sense whatsover. If Adama *really* knows of such an Earth, then there is no point witholding that knowledge from Roslin no matter what he thinks . of her. Telling the population this is their goal means there is no reason to withhold any knowledge of it from any body.

Bottom line, this was Ronald Moore serving up the anti-religious mindset of how faith in something is always manufactured by people for the gullible to believe in. There is no other explanation for this preposterous and pointless plot device.

[justjackrandom]

I think religion and faith play a similar role in the new series as they do in our world today, since that is the model that RDM used. Therefore, there will be those who believe in the literal interpretation of the Book of the Word, and those who do not. The Colonials will have dogmatists, pragmatists, atheists, evangelists, and every other kind of –ist associated with religion.

But just as in our real world, faith is not always enough for hope. Husker gave them hope by giving them the suggestion that at least part of their religion is factual. Now they have fact and not just faith to give them hope.

I don’t think painting religion in this light is pointless. It is closer to the way our world works. It also gives tremendous potential dramatically for a great deal of angst, zeal, guilt, self-realization, and exploration.

My 2p

[Eric Paddon]

I think religion and faith play a similar role in the new series as they do in our world today, since that is the model that RDM used. Therefore, there will be those who believe in the literal interpretation of the Book of the Word, and those who do not. The Colonials will have dogmatists, pragmatists, atheists, evangelists, and every other kind of –ist associated with religion.

I saw no such diversity in Moore's universe, and only saw religion used as a crutch by those who don't let it define their lives (Stardoe) and those who believe its role is to cynically manipulate the masses through lies (Adama). The only ones presented who took their "faith" seriously was the enemy.

"But just as in our real world, faith is not always enough for hope. Husker gave them hope by giving them the suggestion that at least part of their religion is factual. "

In order for this point to have validity, we would have to start from the premise that the core religious doctrines of faith put forth by people were all knowing liars, because that is what Adama is in this context. A liar. He has made something up to provide a false hope, and this is Moore taking the idea that religious faith is rooted only in shadowy myths manipulated for the gullibe to believe in. That is a far cry from those of true faith like in TOS and in real life for that matter who base their faith because of its revelation in actual history.


"It also gives tremendous potential dramatically for a great deal of angst, zeal, guilt, self-realization, and exploration. "

I have see enough one-sided anti-religious perspectives in sci-fi, which unfortunately is the norm. Galactica offered something different by presenting a positive faith-based universe, and when that is removed from something called Battlestar Galactica, there isn't a single positive thing that can be said about it.

[Dawg]

This afternoon, after I again closed this thread, the other mods and I had a conversation.

I won't go into detail, but the upshot of that conversation is that religion in the context of Battlestar Galactica is, indeed, a valid subject of discussion for this forum.

However, insults and derision aimed at an individual and their personal views are not. This is true regardless of the subject being discussed, and it is a rule we enforce throughout CF. And the individuals who participated in such an exchange today know that full well.

So here is what we have decided to do.

We are reopening the thread for continued discussion. The posts which violated the rules have been removed; if you missed them, well, gee, sorry. That's not what we're about here.

If you wish to discuss the religious influences of either show, feel free. But keep the discussion on subject: the religious undertones - or overtones - of the respective shows. Comparisons, personal opinions, fine and dandy. Deviations into negative personal comments, no.

We think we are adult enough to carry on reasonable conversations, even if the subject is controversial. Right?

Carry on.

:salute:

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[thomas7g]

Yeah! And anyone who don't listen to the Dawg gets his head up his butt on a special avatar!!!!! LOL

[BST]

You wouldn't? Would you?

PS -- I listen to Mizzuh Dawg! :D

[PingPongBallEye]

It also gives tremendous potential dramatically for a great deal of angst, zeal, guilt, self-realization, and exploration.
I have to agree. Speaking strictly from the standpoint of character development, having, say, Adama-the-unbeliever offers a lot more possibilities than the original's Adama-the-Patriarch. We already know how the latter would deal with proof the 13th Colony is real: see, told ya so. But no one in the new series is going to be more surprised by evidence that those moldy old scrolls might actually be true than Adama. How will he react? Will he have a road-to-Damascus "conversion experience" at some point? Will he try to explain the evidence scientifically? Will he simply discount it as coincidence?

If evidence of Earth's reality comes to light, how will he deal with the inevitable blossoming of reverence aimed at him? Evidence that Earth exists will surely make some of the survivors see him as a righteous believer; of course, he knows he's no such thing. Does he admit that to his new "disciples," or does he keep quiet -- or even encourage them -- in an attempt to build up hope and morale?

How will Apollo deal with having a father, from whom he has been estranged, who many come to view as some kind of prophet? How will the Viper pilots react if they begin to be seen as Adama's holy warriors? How will Adama deal with those who think he's full of it and just manufacturing evidence? He can't just tell them, hey, I was skeptical to begin with, too!

I think that religion and spirituality will become one of the driving themes of the new series. Moore to me just appears to be starting at the bottom, in cynicism and disbelief, and building up to faith, instead of starting with a widespread, established faith. (And note that if he wanted to be anti-religious, that would be a much better place to start from, since all you can do with something that's fully developed is knock it down!)

[Eric Paddon]

(And note that if he wanted to be anti-religious, that would be a much better place to start from, since all you can do with something that's fully developed is knock it down!)

The original series, I would think, already disproves that premise completely.

[justjackrandom]

The original series, I would think, already disproves that premise completely.

I’m not sure it really disproves the premise as much as not treating the premise at all. Religion in TOS was never dealt with as subject, except perhaps marginally in Lost Planet and War of the Gods. And in those, what we saw was a reinforcement of the idea that much of the Colonial religion was more ancestor and ancient technology/astronaut worship than deity worship. With the exception of the occasional reference to God, we saw little that was faith-based. The religion was never “attacked” dramatically because it was a given, and not something that had to be taken on faith. It can be argued that TOS position on religion is VERY anti-religious.

There are hints that the ideas of religious strife in Colonial society did enter Larson’s thoughts early in the show’s creation, as indicated by the pilot. The subject never came up again, however, probably because it was a bit too extreme for television of the period.


Glad you re-opened the subject Dawg, and thanks for the policing.

JJR

[PingPongBallEye]

It can be argued that TOS position on religion is VERY anti-religious. There are hints that the ideas of religious strife in Colonial society did enter Larson’s thoughts early in the show’s creation, as indicated by the pilot. The subject never came up again, however, probably because it was a bit too extreme for television of the period.
Agreed. I've always thought that in regards to religion (specifically, contemporary Christianity), classic BSG was one of the most subversive shows ever to air, presenting as it did a cast of "virtuous pagans" whose "gods" turned out to be highly evolved and technologically advanced aliens. (Note: I'm not passing any judgements on pagans here, the term is borrowed from Tom Shippey's The Road to Middle Earth, in which he discusses Tolkien's & C.S Lewis' differing treatments of the ultimate fate of non-Christians in LOTR & Lewis' Narnia stories)

On that note, I'd add that while I would love to see the new series revisit some of the original's storylines, god-is-an-alien isn't one of them. Given how integral it is to the Galactica mythos, I have no hope it can be avoided, but personally I have had it up to my non-pointy ears with the "god is an alien/alien race" bit. I know, I know, classic BSG was probably the first SF series to make such a concept so central to its storyline, and it isn't BSG's fault that the theme has been done to death since. But IMHO it's going to be tough to find some take on the idea that hasn't been throughly plowed under by the likes of DS9, B5, or Stargate SG1.

[Eric Paddon]

It can be argued that TOS position on religion is VERY anti-religious.

Well let's see now. We have (1) explicit references to God, treated as real by the lead character (Adama) on more than one occasion and (2) we have the presence of a Good-Evil struggle within the Universe with a being clearly meant to be the traditional form of the Devil responsible for the creation of the very race responsible for humanity's destruction among other things. The argument that TOS is "anti-religious" strikes me as a very dubious one, especially if used to suggest that Moore's universe is somehow not anti-religious.

I also reject the premise that Galactica is in anyway "subversive" with regard to those of a traditional Judeo-Christian background because for all the uneasiness of certain aspects of Mormon doctrine, which is the true genesis behind Galactica religion that most non-Mormon Christians have, the bottom line is that that traditional Mormon philosphy is rooted in the Judeo-Christian background to begin with. Plus, if these were "pagans" then that wouldn't square with the multiple references to a single God as was done by Adama, the spiritual leader of the entire Fleet. The danger is in confusing the SOL beings as the highest form, when in fact Adama's charcterization of them as "angels" in WOTG properly places them below the stature of God Himself, just as the fallen angel Iblis, like Lucifer/Satan in the Bible, was a fallen angel too.

[Dawg]

JJR, I've got to disagree. Religion was omnipresent in TOS - after all, Adama was a warrior-priest, and the entire journey was predicated on what he knew from holy text ("The Book of the Word").

Religion wasn't portrayed as something to be bolstered or knocked down - it was a given, a fact of life. It was something to draw strength from. Not everyone was the scholar Adama was, however, just as such things are in the real world.

That's not how it was portrayed in the Moore production, though - it was a sop for the humans (I think it was Stalin who claimed religion was an opiate to the masses, or something like that) and ultimate justification for the cylons. This was reinforced by Billy's lie based on religious myth in that final speech; the way I take it is that in this universe - for the moment at least - religion is fine for robots and the unwashed masses.

But - and I can't make this point clearly enough - any kind of portrayal of religion in any entertainment media - BSG, West Wing, Spongebob Squarepants - is going to be interpreted through the filter of our own belief system, which is one of the most intensely personal filters we have. We need to keep that in mind as we discuss this, too.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Darth Marley]

I don't think any "liberal" Christian would have too many probelms with religion in TOS.

But, for anyone to think of evolution as a blasphemy, but think it is ok to say "life here began out there" seems to be holding a contradictory stance. Sure, it is only a show, but these were the days of von Daniken, and "Chariots of the Gods."


I find the "flawed humanity" approach of the new show to be more likely to have redemptive themes. With the pagagon of virtue characters in TOS, there is no inner struggle, no coming to terms with faith in the face of catastrophe.

[PingPongBallEye]

I also reject the premise that Galactica is in anyway "subversive" with regard to those of a traditional Judeo-Christian background because for all the uneasiness of certain aspects of Mormon doctrine, which is the true genesis behind Galactica religion that most non-Mormon Christians have, the bottom line is that that traditional Mormon philosphy is rooted in the Judeo-Christian background to begin with. Plus, if these were "pagans" then that wouldn't square with the multiple references to a single God as was done by Adama, the spiritual leader of the entire Fleet. The danger is in confusing the SOL beings as the highest form, when in fact Adama's charcterization of them as "angels" in WOTG properly places them below the stature of God Himself, just as the fallen angel Iblis, like Lucifer/Satan in the Bible, was a fallen angel too.
It doesn't -- at least for me -- have anything to do with Mormon doctrine; it has to do with the overwhelmingly materialist and humanist bent of the show. Contrary to conventional Christian belief, the "gods" (or angels/devils if you prefer) are evolved, high-tech aliens, not supernatural beings. And the path to salvation for humanity lies in evolution and technology (what's the line? "As you are, we once were; as we are, you may become."), not through faith. This is a materialist (all things are explainable without recourse to the supernatural) and humanist (humanity is in charge of its own destiny) philosophy, not a "faith-based" one. A few invocations of an undefined deity by Adama hardly counter this, IMHO.

[PingPongBallEye]

But - and I can't make this point clearly enough - any kind of portrayal of religion in any entertainment media - BSG, West Wing, Spongebob Squarepants - is going to be interpreted through the filter of our own belief system, which is one of the most intensely personal filters we have. We need to keep that in mind as we discuss this, too.
You made the point clearly -- and I think you're on the mark. Having any kind of civil discussion about religion takes great care on the part of all involved. I'll do my best not to declare any jihads! :D

I think you bring up a point that relates to the original series, too. Just as we filter anything through our own belief system, the original BSG represents a Biblical story that's been filtered through a science fiction sieve. And when you begin mixing science (no matter how fictional) with religion, conflict is inevitable. One says you can explain everything; the other says you can't, you have to take some things on faith. Thus you get mention of a single deity, presumably the kind of omnipotent, omnicient, omni-etc. God most people are familiar with, yet it appears that the question of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" can be scientifically determined in the BSG universe, since angels are really advanced aliens.

[BST]

It doesn't -- at least for me -- have anything to do with Mormon doctrine; it has to do with the overwhelmingly materialist and humanist bent of the show. Contrary to conventional Christian belief, the "gods" (or angels/devils if you prefer) are evolved, high-tech aliens, not supernatural beings. And the path to salvation for humanity lies in evolution and technology (what's the line? "As you are, we once were; as we are, you may become."), not through faith. This is a materialist (all things are explainable without recourse to the supernatural) and humanist (humanity is in charge of its own destiny) philosophy, not a "faith-based" one. A few invocations of an undefined deity by Adama hardly counter this, IMHO.


PingPong,

These beings were referred to specifically, by Adama, as angels. If memory serves, Adama made this reference in the closing scene of WOTG, part 2, where Starbuck and Sheba, and to a lesser extent, Apollo, were recounting the visit to the Ship of Lights. This was right before the three of them provided the coordinates to Earth.

Only vague references were made to "God", in the show.

With respect to the present-day understanding of religion and its correlation to the Beings of Light, it may not be blasphemous to suggest that the Colonials could "evolve" into a Being of Light since not many of us, here on Earth, know the entrance requirements for becoming an angel. Perhaps some metamorphosis DOES occur.

[justjackrandom]

Religion was omnipresent in TOS - after all, Adama was a warrior-priest, and the entire journey was predicated on what he knew from holy text ("The Book of the Word").

Religion wasn't portrayed as something to be bolstered or knocked down - it was a given, a fact of life. It was something to draw strength from. Not everyone was the scholar Adama was, however, just as such things are in the real world.


I'm not sure we are actually disagreeing here. What I think I said was that religion was never treated as subject…meaning it was never the central subject of an episode, nor was a crisis or discussion of faith ever a center piece or plot point. The religion of the Colonials was a given…no need for exploration other than to discern clues as to the location of Earth. Religion for TOS Colonials is very much in line with that of the ancient Egyptians, or for that matter ancient Judaism or medieval Christianity. It is based in the realities of history and inseparable from their daily culture and lives. Whether the Book of the Word is actually true or not, the belief upon which the entire Colonial culture is based is that it is. There is very little room here for faith. This concept is somewhat alien to the experience of today’s secular world, particularly those of us who live in the U.S. This is why, from my perspective at least, I found it so intriguing.

I agree that this is not the same in Moore’s galactica, and I think that was what both PingPongBallEye and I were saying. There is more room in Moore’s Galactica for religious revelation and discovery as a dramatic element. It is closer to our own (or at least my) experiences with religion. I also didn’t get the idea that Guillermo was using it disparagingly, but again, that’s just me.

JJR

[BST]

Not trying to split hairs but, this begs a question or two --

Was not the existence of the Thirteenth tribe, in TOS, a historical accounting of the Final Days of Kobol, and not a product of "religious" writings? In other words, could a Colonial be "non-religious" but, still believe in the existence of a Thirteenth tribe? Personally, I didn't view the belief in the existence of a Thirteenth tribe as being dependent on religious underpinnings.

[PingPongBallEye]

With respect to the present-day understanding of religion and its correlation to the Beings of Light, it may not be blasphemous to suggest that the Colonials could "evolve" into a Being of Light since not many of us, here on Earth, know the entrance requirements for becoming an angel. Perhaps some metamorphosis DOES occur.
Oh, I agree, that's clearly implied by what the "angels" say. Babylon 5, which made the struggle between it's alien-angels-and-devils the centerpiece of the series, shows it explicity in a flash-forward episode (the end of season 4, IIRC). It's just that the method for attaining this "grace" differs depending on whether you discuss it in religious or science fiction terms. In the former, it happens only through God; in the latter, it's a natural process (that all races might not survive to get through).

BTW, awesome avatar. LOTR rules! :salute:

[PingPongBallEye]

Not trying to split hairs but, this begs a question or two --

Was not the existence of the Thirteenth tribe, in TOS, a historical accounting of the Final Days of Kobol, and not a product of "religious" writings? In other words, could a Colonial be "non-religious" but, still believe in the existence of a Thirteenth tribe? Personally, I didn't view the belief in the existence of a Thirteenth tribe as being dependent on religious underpinnings.
Good point. I would agree that believing that there's a 13th tribe doesn't require faith in any deity or deities. But if it's seen as a document of doubtful provenance, lumped in with various other religous/mythological scribblings, that suddenly proves true, it would likely trigger the question, what else in this stuff is worth a second look? Again, I think you have some good opportunity for drama here.

[BST]

Oh, I agree, that's clearly implied by what the "angels" say. Babylon 5, which made the struggle between it's alien-angels-and-devils the centerpiece of the series, shows it explicity in a flash-forward episode (the end of season 4, IIRC). It's just that the method for attaining this "grace" differs depending on whether you discuss it in religious or science fiction terms. In the former, it happens only through God; in the latter, it's a natural process (that all races might not survive to get through).

Precisely. The Beings of Light were just the "messengers". Another "splitting-hairs" type question would be if ANY method of becoming an angel could be considerd "through God" since God created all.


BTW, awesome avatar. LOTR rules! :salute:


Thanks. I really liked the character of Theoden. :thumbsup:

[BST]

Good point. I would agree that believing that there's a 13th tribe doesn't require faith in any deity or deities. But if it's seen as a document of doubtful provenance, lumped in with various other religous/mythological scribblings, that suddenly proves true, it would likely trigger the question, what else in this stuff is worth a second look? Again, I think you have some good opportunity for drama here.

Agreed. As more of the "Word" is proven, it lends validity to the rest of the writings as being legitimate and "not the product of some half-drunk star chaser".

(Memory is failing a bit on that little quote but, I seem to remember something like it in TOS during a conversation about the Book of the Word. Wait a minute, memory starting to come back -- didn't Baltar say something to that effect in LPOTG when he walked into the burial chamber of the 9th Lord of Kobol?)

[Gemini1999]

Was not the existence of the Thirteenth tribe, in TOS, a historical accounting of the Final Days of Kobol, and not a product of "religious" writings? In other words, could a Colonial be "non-religious" but, still believe in the existence of a Thirteenth tribe? Personally, I didn't view the belief in the existence of a Thirteenth tribe as being dependent on religious underpinnings.

Pete -

If I remember correctly - I remember that Adama said that the 13th Tribe was "referred only thru ancient writings". There was no emphasis on the religious aspect. (If memory serves)

Bryan

[Dawg]

Many religions are based on ancient fact - Christians (and others) believe Jesus of Nazareth roamed Israel 2000 years ago, Islam is based on the writings of Mohammed. It's no stretch to assume that the unspeakably ancient writings of the Lords of Kobol were at least part of the basis of the Colonial religion. Myth is often based on some kernel of truth, after all.

Larson's genius in this regard was the blending of various influences and philosophies into the Colonial faith structure. In Judeo-Christian thinking, we become angels in the next life. The BOL are, in the BSG universe, angels - he made that reference. I'm actually kind of sorry there wasn't greater exploration of the religion during the run; I expect we'd learn that it was the same as ours (and as it is in Richard's books, that the BOL is the next step in human spiritual evolution) - you know what I mean.

Yet another casualty of ABC's rush, I guess.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Charybdis]

Good points all, just want to clarify a bit on what Dawg said. Actually, in the Christian faith, we do not become angels in the afterlife. "Angels" are their own entity of being. They are pure spirit who do not have bodies.

Humans have spirit, but as we all know, we also have mortal bodies.

[justjackrandom]

Early Egyptians considered a person to be made up of a number of different parts, with the soul and the spirit being separate. As for ‘angels’ in Egypt, it is believed by some that the gods of the very early Egyptians were the equivalent, since there is evidence that they were monotheistic.

JJR

[Antelope]

Great points on this thread.

The colonials of TOS have faith and act in a religious manner but do they worship a god or God? I don't think TOS is really clear on the manner.

When they do the equivalent of invoking the name of God like we do in prayer they usually say ... "by the Lords of Kobol". I assume the Lords of Kobol were flesh and blood humans just like them. Is this a form of ancestor worship or are their "founding fathers" placed on some kind of pedestal.

How about the saying, "Sagan's sake"? Was "Sagan" a colonialism for God or was Sagan another flesh and blood person in colonial history?

Depending on how things are meant the colonials may have no real reference to a real god or gods and simply refer to a conflict between other advanced non-god beings or may be deeply religious believers in one supreme being who has lesser beings referred to as "angels" or beings of light in his service. One of these beings of light rebelled and is Iblis in the same vain as our own (Christian) belief system where Satan was a rebellious angel who is followed by a third of the original angels.

The mini is modeled on contemporary society. The cylons follow a religion loosely based on militant Islam. The colonials live in a secular state with a wide range of religious belief among their citizens that seems losely based on our Judeo-Christian society. Their holy book is also a history of their migration to their star system. How much can be believed literally is probably as debated as literal belief in our bible today. Some probably believe all the stories are false, some entirely true, some a historical document with no religious value, and some a spiritual guide to their lives.

[Charybdis]

I believe that, given what happened in War of the Gods and in Lost Planet of the Gods, that the old Lords of Kobol were flesh and blood rulers of the planet Kobol, very much like the pharaohs of ancient Egypt. According to the Mormon philosophy so prevalent in the series, they progressed into "angelic" beings of the cosmos..."as you are, we once were; as we are now, you may become."

The Sagan's sake reference was only put in there as a joke...I don't think it has any significance other than being a reference to astronomer Carl Sagan...it is kind of funny!

[Antelope]

The Sagan's sake reference was only put in there as a joke...I don't think it has any significance other than being a reference to astronomer Carl Sagan...it is kind of funny!

I never noticed the "Sagan's sake" reference until I saw it mentioned at Colonial Fleets. It just blew right past me before. I figured it had to be an homage to Carl Sagan. I did wonder after seeing how it was used whether the writer in that episode was making an anti-religious quip or just being funny. Did Larson write that episode? Carl Sagan always seemed to be an anti-religious person and substituting his name in an expression that invokes God in our use I think was meant to express something. If it was meant as somthing more than a joke it could be a connection between Earth and the colonials. Sagan popularized space to many people. It could be possible that if TOS is set in the future and that the colonials are really descendants of Earth people (concept that Kobol = Earth) then Carl Sagan could have went from being a famous person to a cult like figure in the future.

Whatever the intention the use of the term adds some spice to TOS to those who realized it.

[Dawg]

Oh, for Pete's sake.

:blink:

Can you say "overanalyze"? I'm sure you can.

;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[martok2112]

But - and I can't make this point clearly enough - any kind of portrayal of religion in any entertainment media - BSG, West Wing, Spongebob Squarepants - is going to be interpreted through the filter of our own belief system, which is one of the most intensely personal filters we have. We need to keep that in mind as we discuss this, too.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

Agreed. Each and every person posting in response to this thread replies to this subject based on their own beliefs, interpretations. Basically, we all see what want to see. Whether one believes that someone else's opinion is baseless is a moot point (regardless of where you sit on the GALACTICA fence) because, again, we are only expressing opinions.

With that said, may I offer my most humble opinions and observations?

Yes, the original series, in my humble opinion, had an overtly spiritual/religious underpinning.

The parallel that I would draw between our beloved TOS and the new, equally legitimate BATTLESTAR GALACTICA is this:

In TOS, it was clear that the Colonial's faith and religion was there. Adama did speak like a warrior/priest with the grandiose "Let the word go fotth...." invocation, and the inspirational "..known to us only through ancient writings." speech in SOASW. He did rebuke the council of the twelve when Sire Uri made the proposeal to surrender to the Cylons. But that is not the end all/be all of their religious trappings. Adama had proven time and again that he was the fleet's spiritual leader throughout ongoing episodes of TOS, making references to the "Book of the Word". There was also the conflict with Count Iblis. the encounters with the BOL's (which strikes me equivalently as an evolution of man, and as an angelic presence). The thing is , Classic BATTLESTAR GALACTICA started out with religious undertones, and continued to build on that as time went on.

In the new BATTLESTAR GALACTICA, religion is portrayed differently, yes. I do tend to liken the Cylon's beliefs to the "holy wars" of today. There is no Cylon parallel between TOS and TNS as far as religion goes. The parallel I suggest is that while the religion within the rag-tag fleet is there (just not as pronounced as in TOS), I believe that over time as the new series evolves, religion may end up taking a stronger role (just as it did in TOS). The classic series evolved until its end. The new series will evolve until its end. I now end the parallel.

It is my humble opinion that Adama (whom I do not believe to be an Aetheist, simply someone who does not overtly profess his beliefs in a higher power) will come to embrace faith, and rely strongly on Elosha, the Colonial priestess. Starbuck's prayer to the Lords of Kobol was heartfelt. She, like Adama, probably does not profess an overt belief in God or the Lords of Kobol. (Besides, no Aetheists in foxholes.) When she confesses her "fatal mistake" to Lee Adama, just before going on the recon through the Ragnar EM field, she realized that this could very well be the end, and that she would like to meet her Maker with a clear conscience.

As for whom Commander Adama lied to in the new BATTLESTAR GALACTICA is subject to conjecture as well. I tend to agree that Commander Adama lied to President Roslin. Adama clearly does not trust politicians nearly as much as his own people. Also, it is ambiguous in the miniseries as to whether or not he is aware of Roslin's terminal condition. He only knows that Roslin is a school teacher cum President. and that is still the way he views her. Why fully detail the course to/location of Earth to someone you don't trust? (Especially with the current Cylon threat) Why fully disclose the Fleet's most guarded secret to an academic cabinet member with newfound executive authority? As the series develops, we will learn (I am sure) who Adama really lied to.

Bottom line is, the miniseries is only the first step. The series is the next step. Over time, the series may well answer questions and fill in gaps left by the mini. There are those who will watch the mini and see for themselves whether or not it evolves in the way we hope it does. There are those who will not watch.

In either case , "There are those who believe..".one way or the other. And beliefs are nothing more than vehement opinions.

Respectfully to all,
Martok2112

[martok2112]

Doing my best "Church Lady" impersonation:


"Could it be....maybe....SAGAN?!" :D :duck:

Thank you,
Martok2112

[Gemini1999]

Doing my best "Church Lady" impersonation:


"Could it be....maybe....SAGAN?!" :D :duck:

My reply to that is:

"Isn't that spe - cial???":D

Best,
Bryan

[martok2112]

Gemini....GREAT ANSWER!!! :D :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Irreverently,
Martok2112 :salute:

[Antelope]

Dawg: Don't take away my over analyzing fun on a quiet day at work!


I never noticed the whole "Sagan's sake" when I watched TOS. The ONLY reason I ever caught it was because one of our colonial fleets members likes to use the expression.

Being that it was obviously intentionally put in TOS I just wondered from the vast knowledge base at the site if anyone knew if it was more than just a joke as mentioned before.

Why do we say for "Pete's sake"? I understand "God's sake" but "Pete's sake" must come from somewhere (Saint Peter?)

Anyone, anyone, Bueller, Bueller.

Martok: I agree with you 100%

[Eric Paddon]

I don't think any "liberal" Christian would have too many probelms with religion in TOS.

Frankly, I've yet to see any conservative Christians object seriously to TOS except in the context of being critical of Mormon theology. In terms of the basic sympathy for the principles held by those of a traditional Judeo-Christian perspective, TOS is more sympathetic to those of a conservative bent, since in this society its Holy Book is meant to be taken as the literal truth and not as a mere allegory from myth the way theologians of a "liberal" bent would interpret the Bible.

[Rowan]

Dawg: Don't take away my over analyzing fun on a quiet day at work! LOL! you spend too much time alone there with your thoughts Antelope! ;) :D

Why do we say for "Pete's sake"? I understand "God's sake" but "Pete's sake" must come from somewhere (Saint Peter?)

Anyone, anyone, Bueller, Bueller.

Hey Antelope I looked it up for you and out of curiosity! lol

This phrase and phrases like "for Pete's sake" are euphemisms for the phrases "for the love of God/Christ" or "for God's/ Christ's sake" and hail from a time when those phases were considered blasphemous. Nowadays phrases like "for the love of god" are commonly used, but the euphemisms are still used.


Why Pete? Most likely it is a reference to the catholic Saint Peter. Other phrases with similar origins are: "Zounds!" (archaic British slang), is a contraction of "christ's wounds", "oh my goodness" and "oh my gosh" for "oh my God", and "gosh darn it" for "God damn it"

http://members.aol.com/MorelandC/Phrases.htm

[Eric Paddon]

It doesn't -- at least for me -- have anything to do with Mormon doctrine; it has to do with the overwhelmingly materialist and humanist bent of the show.

Then we're not looking at the same program, because that's a description of Star Trek, not Galactica.

Contrary to conventional Christian belief, the "gods" (or angels/devils if you prefer) are evolved, high-tech aliens, not supernatural beings.

I see no such indicator of that. They are of a different plane, totally beyond the comprehension of the normal human mind, and I see no contradiction in the way the SOL are presented as "angels" in the conventional frame of mind as servants of the Divine, representing part of the Good-Evil struggle that like it or not *is* explicitly mentioned in WOTG. For you to say there is nothing supernatural about them is not a tenable argument IMO.


"And the path to salvation for humanity lies in evolution and technology (what's the line? "As you are, we once were; as we are, you may become."), not through faith. This is a materialist (all things are explainable without recourse to the supernatural) and humanist (humanity is in charge of its own destiny) philosophy, not a "faith-based" one. "

Wrong. That's a quote from Mormon theology and it's the one aspect of blatant Mormon doctrine that holds to the idea of human beings becoming divine themselves that I do not agree with, but which I can forgive in the overall context of what else I see. What you can't call that is materialistic/humanism because that just isn't so, and that would also require you to disregard what Larson himself said about that.

[BST]

Oh, for Pete's sake.

:blink:

I am
Dawg
:warrior:


HEY!!!!

How'd I get drawn into this????

*tapping foot, waiting for an answer!!!! ;)

[Eric Paddon]

"The colonials of TOS have faith and act in a religious manner but do they worship a god or God? I don't think TOS is really clear on the manner."


Let 's see now.

"Is Ravashol God?" (GOIPZ)

"And there I was like God...." (Adama in Saga)

"Not even God?" (Adama, WOTG).

"Like riding in the hand of God." (Apollo, Hand of God)

Seems pretty obvious to me. All of those references are explicit in a way that has nothing to do with an "Oh my God" kind of statement that makes it clear about the prevailing monotheism of traditional Colonial religion.

[justjackrandom]

Seems pretty obvious to me. All of those references are explicit in a way that has nothing to do with an "Oh my God" kind of statement that makes it clear about the prevailing monotheism of traditional Colonial religion.

I agree. Again, I make the early Egyptian analogy. They referenced and prayed a lot to their “Lords of Kobol”, the gods, who the Egyptians considered ascended ancestors (HERU (Horus) was the first king of the united upper and lower kingdoms), but they also referenced and prayed to God.

JJR

[Dawg]

I don't think the position of the Lords of Kobol in the religious heirarchy was ever really established beyond "the blessings of the Lords of Kobol" invocation Adama would use.

Given Larson's own membership in the LDS church, it could be easily inferred that the Lords of Kobol - the BOL - were the Mormon equivalent of Catholic saints, which are virtuous humans gone to their reward, the "next level" of existence, capable of miracles, indeed are god-like beings (but beings less than God).

I don't profess to understand (much less embrace) Mormon doctrine, but I had two brothers in that church at about that time.

Also Iblis is clearly the parallel of the Christian Satan - in fact, "Diabolis" is one of the names Apollo uses.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Darth Marley]

Iblis is also referenced as "the devil" in the Koran.

[martok2112]

Also Iblis is clearly the parallel of the Christian Satan - in fact, "Diabolis" is one of the names Apollo uses.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

Mephistopholes is another regognizable name for the devil, but I cannot identify the origins for that name.

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[137th Gebirg]

Iblis is also referenced as "the devil" in the Koran.
A snippet from one of my posts on the Battlestar Insignia thread:

According to the Glossary of Muslim Terms found at

http://www.digiserve.com/mystic/Muslim/glossary.html

Iblis (إبليس): The figure of Iblis in Islam is similar to that of Satan in Christianity. Although Iblis was an angelic being, his vision couldn't penetrate the outward form of a thing in order to apprehend its inward meaning. When Adam (the first human) was created, God commanded Iblis and all the other angels to prostrate themselves before Adam. Iblis refused to bow down to this new creation of God. Iblis reasoned to himself that he was superior to Adam since he was made of fire while Adam was only made of clay. In this one act of defiance Iblis introduced the sins of pride, envy, and disobedience into the world. When confronted by God, Iblis refused to take any responsibility for his sins; instead he accused God of leading him astray.

[Eric Paddon]

The name "Diabolos" also used as a term for Iblis is the Greek term for the Devil found in Greek translations of the New Testament.

[PingPongBallEye]

Me:
Contrary to conventional Christian belief, the "gods" (or angels/devils if you prefer) are evolved, high-tech aliens, not supernatural beings.
Eric:
I see no such indicator of that. They are of a different plane, totally beyond the comprehension of the normal human mind, and I see no contradiction in the way the SOL are presented as "angels" in the conventional frame of mind as servants of the Divine, representing part of the Good-Evil struggle that like it or not *is* explicitly mentioned in WOTG. For you to say there is nothing supernatural about them is not a tenable argument IMO.
One question: since when do supernatural beings need a big crystal spaceship to fly around in? There is nothing of a "different plane" or "beyond comprehension" about the "angels" in War of the Gods. I'd have to go dig in my copy of Bartlett's for confirmation, but I think it was Asimov who noted that, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." There is no need (IMHO, of course) to resort to the supernatural or Divine to explain them. Certainly, one can attribute their powers to Divinity, but one can also attribute them to more natural sources -- and I tend to shave with Occam's Razor.

Me again:
"And the path to salvation for humanity lies in evolution and technology (what's the line? "As you are, we once were; as we are, you may become."), not through faith. This is a materialist (all things are explainable without recourse to the supernatural) and humanist (humanity is in charge of its own destiny) philosophy, not a "faith-based" one. "
Eric:
Wrong. That's a quote from Mormon theology and it's the one aspect of blatant Mormon doctrine that holds to the idea of human beings becoming divine themselves that I do not agree with, but which I can forgive in the overall context of what else I see. What you can't call that is materialistic/humanism because that just isn't so, and that would also require you to disregard what Larson himself said about that.
"As you are, we once were..." isn't a quote from Mormon theology, though it's close. The actual quote is, "As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be." It's attributed to a former LDS president, Lorenzo Snow.* You're correct in that it deals with the idea of humans becoming divine, but filtered through the SF sieve I mentioned earlier (exit "God," enter "we," meaning the aliens/angels/whatever they are), it takes on a wholly new meaning. Maybe they are representatives of God...or maybe they're an advanced group of aliens flying around in a big snowflake...saying man could become like them. Whatever Larson may have said since, the presentation in the show is completely consistent with a natural (not supernatural) explaination.

(* just a footnote: I mean neither to endorse nor disparage Mormons. I am an atheist. I have no interest in promoting or denying any religion, or even my own heathen godlessness :). When it comes to the Divine, y'all are on your own!)

[justjackrandom]

Certainly, one can attribute their powers to Divinity, but one can also attribute them to more natural sources -- and I tend to shave with Occam's Razor.

Ah…be careful with that shave though. Remember that Occam’s razor makes no claim as to the truth of any hypothesis, but instead distinguishes that which should be tested first, as it will be the easiest to disprove.


JJR

[Darth Marley]

"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

I think you will find that it was A.C. Clarke that coined that phrase.

[thomas7g]

"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Which makes one wonder if Penn and Teller are from a civilization far more advanced than our own...


...or not.;)

[Eric Paddon]

Me:
One question: since when do supernatural beings need a big crystal spaceship to fly around in? There is nothing of a "different plane" or "beyond comprehension" about the "angels" in War of the Gods.

By whose definition? Yours? I would submit that there's a lot that remained hard to fathom and grasp about them, just as is true for all those who operate on a different plane and who are being explicitly presented as one step removed from the Almighty Himself, as things were presented. Besides, for you to pooh-pooh the notion requires ignoring the obvious points already noted regarding the person of Iblis himself, the nature of the struggle as "Good-Evil" as defined in the closing sequence of the episode, not to mention Larson's own comments on the subject, and I think from here the trend is pretty obvious.

There is no need (IMHO, of course) to resort to the supernatural or Divine to explain them. Certainly, one can attribute their powers to Divinity, but one can also attribute them to more natural sources -- and I tend to shave with Occam's Razor.

Except that in your case, you're ignoring the intent of those who created the episode in question and transposing your own perspective onto it, and I think that's why I have a hard time with your arguments. That isn't how the principles of Occam's Razor works. You have tested the hypothesis through what comes off as a very selective use of the evidence before you as opposed to to the totality of things.

"As you are, we once were..." isn't a quote from Mormon theology, though it's close. The actual quote is, "As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be." It's attributed to a former LDS president, Lorenzo Snow.* You're correct in that it deals with the idea of humans becoming divine, but filtered through the SF sieve I mentioned earlier !)

I have to reiterate my point, that you are ignoring Larson's own words on this subject. He was harkening to that exact phrase when he wrote the line, so why don't we at least get a concession regarding the fact that your spin on this is merely your desire as an atheist to reinterpret WOTG along atheist lines? As a consevative Christian (and non-Mormon) I have to acknowledge the blatant use of Mormon doctrine in an episode because the authors speak of where they come from on that matter, and any harmonizing I then do to see Galactica as totally in synch with my own Christian perspective, must then be done with that caveat, and I'm afraid I'm not seeing that in your case.

[PingPongBallEye]

Originally Posted by PingPongBallEye
Me:
One question: since when do supernatural beings need a big crystal spaceship to fly around in? There is nothing of a "different plane" or "beyond comprehension" about the "angels" in War of the Gods.

By whose definition? Yours? I would submit that there's a lot that remained hard to fathom and grasp about them, just as is true for all those who operate on a different plane and who are being explicitly presented as one step removed from the Almighty Himself, as things were presented.
Well, for someone who believes they are hard to fathom and grasp, you don't seem to have any trouble defining them! But again, seriously, why do angels need a spaceship? Well, I'll give you the answer: because this is an outer space shoot 'em up, not Palestine of 2,000 years ago. Which gets to the heart of our discussion, IMHO...
Originally Posted by PingPongBallEye
There is no need (IMHO, of course) to resort to the supernatural or Divine to explain them. Certainly, one can attribute their powers to Divinity, but one can also attribute them to more natural sources -- and I tend to shave with Occam's Razor.

Except that in your case, you're ignoring the intent of those who created the episode in question and transposing your own perspective onto it, and I think that's why I have a hard time with your arguments. That isn't how the principles of Occam's Razor works. You have tested the hypothesis through what comes off as a very selective use of the evidence before you as opposed to to the totality of things.
And this is point where we're talking past each other, Eric. I've measured my hypothesis against what was shown on the TV show. Larson may well have intended to create a faith-based series; what I am saying is that he did not succeed. Yes, what was actually presented to the viewing public did employ a great deal of religious style, from Biblical-sounding dialogue to plots pieced together from stories of Noah, Moses, and the Mormon journey to Utah to a grand battle between forces of good and evil. But it's all been stripped out of its sacred context, and then placed within a SF action/adventure setting that has fundamental conflicts with a religious viewpoint.

Consider the Biblical story of the Exodus from Egypt, clearly a source of inspiration for Saga of a Star World. When the armies of Pharoh come against Moses and the Hebrews, what happens? God parts the sea, allowing the Hebrews to escape, and then causes it to crash in again, crushing the Egyptians. When the wandering tribes need bread, manna falls from the heavens; when they need water, it flows from a rock. The core message is that deliverance comes through God, and He will provide it if His people only have faith.

Now look at Saga. When the Cylons, like the Egyptians, come against the rag-tag fugitive fleet, what happens? Does Adama invoke the protection of God, Who then promptly smites the fleet's chrome adversaries? Well, of course not, that wouldn't make for much of an action/adventure series. They launch Vipers and we get a big space battle. When food in the fleet is running low, does Adama invoke God, Who then causes bread to rain down from the bulkheads? Of course not; instead the Viper pilots comb the fleet to redistribute what food there is fairly. When the fleet is low on fuel, does Adama strike a staff against a pipe to produce a miraculous flow of tylium? Nope, they have to go to Carrilon to find it.

The epic storyline of the Bible is there, but the moral lesson has been reversed. At every point where there Biblical story emphasizes the power of faith, Saga emphasizes technology and human solutions. The religious elements have been reduced to window dressing; they've been stripped of all religious context, and end up supporting precisely the opposite position they did originally.
I have to reiterate my point, that you are ignoring Larson's own words on this subject. He was harkening to that exact phrase when he wrote the line, so why don't we at least get a concession regarding the fact that your spin on this is merely your desire as an atheist to reinterpret WOTG along atheist lines? As a consevative Christian (and non-Mormon) I have to acknowledge the blatant use of Mormon doctrine in an episode because the authors speak of where they come from on that matter, and any harmonizing I then do to see Galactica as totally in synch with my own Christian perspective, must then be done with that caveat, and I'm afraid I'm not seeing that in your case.
The key word here is "doctrine," I think. I don't see any Mormon doctrine; I don't see any doctrine at all in the original series. I see no masses, hear no prayers. There are no hymns, no holy observances, no Divine commandments or religious laws. There are no priests or monks or holy men/women. The context necessary to understand lines like "as you are, we were..." isn't present. God's robes are there, but He Himself has been instructed to exit stage right. Wouldn't want to tick someone in Peoria off.

I agree with you that Larson set out to do a sort of "Mormons in space." I'm not attempting to spin or reinterpret anything. I'm just saying that that wasn't what showed up in the final product.

[BST]

why do angels need a spaceship? ...


Consider the possibility that the angels, i.e., Beings of Light, do not NEED a spaceship but, use it only they make contact with the Colonials.

Gentlemen,

Some points of your arguments are overlapping --




Contrary to conventional Christian belief, the "gods" (or angels/devils if you prefer) are evolved, high-tech aliens, not supernatural beings.




They are of a different plane, totally beyond the comprehension of the normal human mind, and I see no contradiction in the way the SOL are presented as "angels" in the conventional frame of mind as servants of the Divine, representing part of the Good-Evil struggle that like it or not *is* explicitly mentioned in WOTG.


These statements can both be true.

Example, how would WE appear, to someone of the 1st century AD? (Given our advancements in technology, we could very well appear as "gods" to them.)

Another example (scifi-related - ST:TOS--episode: The Paradise Syndrome) -- when Kirk saved the life of the Indian boy, by giving him mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. Kirk was revered as a "god", by the Indians (who had never seen this type of treatment employed). For Kirk, though, "breathing life into the child" was just a simple First-aid procedure.

It's all in appearances and perceptions.

[martok2112]

Consider the possibility that the angels, i.e., Beings of Light, do not NEED a spaceship but, use it only they make contact with the Colonials.

Gentlemen,

Some points of your arguments are overlapping --






These statements can both be true.

Example, how would WE appear, to someone of the 1st century AD? (Given our advancements in technology, we could very well appear as "gods" to them.)

Another example (scifi-related - ST:TOS--episode: The Paradise Syndrome) -- when Kirk saved the life of the Indian boy, by giving him mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. Kirk was revered as a "god", by the Indians (who had never seen this type of treatment employed). For Kirk, though, "breathing life into the child" was just a simple First-aid procedure.

It's all in appearances and perceptions.


Well stated, BST. Well stated indeed.

:salute:
martok2112

[Eric Paddon]

Well, for someone who believes they are hard to fathom and grasp, you don't seem to have any trouble defining them!

Defining them in general terms, not in minute specifics, in which you presume them to be on the same level as normal because they "use a spaceship."

I've measured my hypothesis against what was shown on the TV show. .

Except that when you do this, you keep leaving out way too much that argues against your hypothesis of materialism/humanism, such as the not coincidental names used for the Devil figure of Iblis, the dialogue at the end of the episode, and the frequent references to belief in a single God as used by Adama and others in the series. This is where your attempts to argue that Galactica is humanist in the blatant humanist tradition of Star Trek does not IMO hold water, using that very same Occam's razor approach.

Larson may well have intended to create a faith-based series; what I am saying is that he did not succeed..

Sorry, but I can't accept this line of reasoning. "Original intent" is an idea that IMO works just as good for Galactica as it should for the U.S. Constitution (but that alas, opens up another can of worms that I won't get into), and if we don't respect the perspective of where the author comes from, we are not doing our own powers of analysis any justice.

Consider the Biblical story of the Exodus from Egypt, clearly a source of inspiration for Saga of a Star World. When the armies of Pharoh come against Moses and the Hebrews, what happens? God parts the sea, allowing the Hebrews to escape, and then causes it to crash in again, crushing the Egyptians. When the wandering tribes need bread, manna falls from the heavens; when they need water, it flows from a rock. The core message is that deliverance comes through God, and He will provide it if His people only have faith.

Or, conversely God lifts up people of faith to lead during times of crisis, who learn to overcome their inner sense of torment, as Adama did, and as Moses had to when he was at first reluctant to answer God's call even after hearing the message from the Burning Bush. Not every act of God in providing for his people appears through the form of what the mortal mind would call a miracle. What you keep calling a "human solution" conveniently ignores the fact that looking for a goal called Earth only rests in the form of placing faith in the truth of the Holy Word, and seeing as how the Galactica is able to safely proceed on its journey in spite of a ton of obstacles placed in their path over the course of a season's worth of stories, one can just as easily look back on the series as a whole and say God was there watching out for their safety and lifting up people of integrity to do what was necessary to help the people through times of crisis.


"I don't see any Mormon doctrine"

Sealing ceremonies, the Quorum of the Twelve concept, the SOL remarks.....the list I am afraid is quite numerous.

"I see no masses, hear no prayers. There are no hymns, no holy observances, no Divine commandments or religious laws. "

The Book of the Word, the hymn of praise filmed for Saga but cut. Adama holding his medallion to Tigh in LPOTG as "the symbol of our faith"..........

I think the evidence is there to vindicate the idea of Galactica as a series steeped in the pro-religion element, especially since it also presupposes the decidedly unhumanistic idea of mankind (1) not being able to prosper and "evolve" into a state where technology is the answer to everything. Consult the cut scene from LPOTG but present in the telemovie edition where the fall of Kobol is directly attributed to the abuse of technology. Consider Adama's comment in Saga where he sighs, "No wonder our world fell apart." The Colonies were at their most advanced, yet their technology and superior skills couldn't save them from destruction. That is anything but a vindication of the materialist argument.

[thomas7g]

fishes living all their lives underwater trying to understand the concept of "fire".

:)

[Reverend Dr Syn]

I think this Baltar had a firm belief in God.

After all, he kept uttering it over and over when he was with Six.



Ahem. Sorry. Couldnt resist. :LOL:

[Antelope]

After reading through here I think we see the genius of TOS. To one inclined to religious faith we see a very religious show. To those disinclined to faith we see a show in which all religion is explained in a secular manner. The show appeals to both audiences and unless you are on a Battlestar board you wouldn't even see it from the other side.

[Eric Paddon]

Except that in the final analysis, the intent of the creators of the series and their mindset should offer the final word on the subject, and in the case of TOS, that puts it squarely on the side of a pro-religion mindset.

Gene Roddenberry's secularism forces me to view Star Trek in no other context, no matter what occasional concessions I see in certain episodes to those of traditional faith (which I suspect were more the product of network censors telling him to watch his step), and I think the same standard needs to be applied to Galactica.

[Senmut]

Anyone?

C'mon! I know some people have thought about this...

:wtf:


If he does, he'll screw it up, just like he did the rest.

[Ioraptor]

So what Eric is saying is that the creators of BSG were sneaky.
:)

[Eric Paddon]

Hardly. I think it was done in a rather obvious way.

[jewels]

I think this Baltar had a firm belief in God.

After all, he kept uttering it over and over when he was with Six.



Ahem. Sorry. Couldnt resist. :LOL:
Eeeeeeeewwww. icky!!!! gross out. That was just crass after all the heady discussion above it!

Eeeeewwww!

Jewels, who needs no reminders of the extraneous sex the new show is peppered with. Yetched.

:laugh: I just had to acknowledge that you got me. :laugh:

[jewels]

Eric, good points on faith examples in TOS, especially your general overview. Someone was watching out for the Colonials, someone who planned for them to make their way to earth. :)

It's the "there will always be a remnant" thing you see in OT prophets especially.

I think Mormonism was a clever, convenient way to tie in to an earth-like religion yet have it be other-worldly. Mormonism has enough in common with mainstream Christianity to feel familiar but with enough idiosychracies/things taught in only it to give that "you are dealing with another time, place and culture than earth" context. So no ones toes were deliberately stepped on. And there was a hint at the faith Adama & Tigh knew, not being the sole faith in the culturally diverse colonies. (refer to the Ootori of the Gemons in Saga, and possibly the Borellian Nomen for some diversity).

[Ioraptor]

If you Google 'Mormon' and 'Battlestar Galactica' you get some interesting returns.
I would have to say that a strong case is made for describing TOS as a vehicle for Mormon faith and ideology.
Not a bad thing or a good thing in my book, just what it is.



http://www.michaellorenzen.com/galactica.html

http://www.proaxis.com/~sherlockfam/art5.html

http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com/pages/galactica/primer2.htm

[Ioraptor]

Oooops! Just re-read the title of this thread and its 'Religion and the New BSG'.
Sorry, I'm terrible about getting off topic.

Hmmm.
Its definitely a different take in nuGalactica.
The Colonials have a faith where they invoke 'Lords' and also a singular 'God'.
They involve religion in the political process; Rosyln asks for a priest to administer the oath of office. Blurring the line between church and state.
Hard to say where the writers are going with it yet, its just to early to know.
What’s interesting is the historical information one gleans from the statements of Adama when he inquires of the priestess Elosha about the 'ancient scrolls'.
That all the Colonials have from the founding days are religious scrolls implies that they lost their technology early on.
I have a feeling the Colonials are going to find their faith tested in many ways, both factual and philosophical.

As for the Cylons?
#6 mentions faith to Baltar and implies that she has been instructed by God.
She has an elaborate belief system that justifies the destruction of humanity.
What is the source of this belief system?
Perhaps there is a 'true leader' of the Cylons in the shadows, claiming to be god ?
Perhaps the Cylons have interpreted the laws of nature, physics, and the Thermodynamic arrow in some fashion that seems like "the word of god" to them.
Perhaps it’s the remnants of a software command directive that the Cylons have interpreted as the 'word of god'?

Its not cut and dried like TOS and thats entertaining to me. I find enjoyment in solving these kinds of riddles and the writers certainly have succeeded in hooking my interest.

[martok2112]

Oooops! Just re-read the title of this thread and its 'Religion and the New BSG'.
Sorry, I'm terrible about getting off topic.

Hmmm.
Its definitely a different take in nuGalactica.
The Colonials have a faith where they invoke 'Lords' and also a singular 'God'.
They involve religion in the political process; Rosyln asks for a priest to administer the oath of office. Blurring the line between church and state.
Hard to say where the writers are going with it yet, its just to early to know.
What’s interesting is the historical information one gleans from the statements of Adama when he inquires of the priestess Elosha about the 'ancient scrolls'.
That all the Colonials have from the founding days are religious scrolls implies that they lost their technology early on.
I have a feeling the Colonials are going to find their faith tested in many ways, both factual and philosophical.

As for the Cylons?
#6 mentions faith to Baltar and implies that she has been instructed by God.
She has an elaborate belief system that justifies the destruction of humanity.
What is the source of this belief system?
Perhaps there is a 'true leader' of the Cylons in the shadows, claiming to be god ?
Perhaps the Cylons have interpreted the laws of nature, physics, and the Thermodynamic arrow in some fashion that seems like "the word of god" to them.
Perhaps it’s the remnants of a software command directive that the Cylons have interpreted as the 'word of god'?

Its not cut and dried like TOS and thats entertaining to me. I find enjoyment in solving these kinds of riddles and the writers certainly have succeeded in hooking my interest.


Well stated, Ioraptor!

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[BST]

Going through some of my paperbacks, today, I found this interesting little morsel.

It was in the "Battlestar Galactica" (Saga) paperback novelization, by Glen Larson and Robert Thurston, pp 84-85. I'll just transcribe some lines of dialogue:




(Adama) " I think there is a real world called Earth and that it is out there and will welcome us," he said finally. "I believe it is there."

"Belief is a word associated more strongly with hope than fact," Serina said, adding a belated "Sir."

"Belief, hope," Adama said, " they're all we have, all we've ever had."

"Forgive my scepticism (sic), Commander Adama, but you're asking us to join you on a religious quest."

"Perhaps."

"You can't just go off on a religious quest when we --"

"I can," Adama said, "and I will."

He made a long survey of their puzzled faces.

"And you'll go."

When he saw that Serina was about to protest again, he said softly:

"There's no other choice."

[Antelope]

Going through some of my paperbacks, today, I found this interesting little morsel.

It was in the "Battlestar Galactica" (Saga) paperback novelization, by Glen Larson and Robert Thurston, pp 84-85. I'll just transcribe some lines of dialogue:

Your quotes from the book were very interesting. In a way it appears that the difference between TOS and mini Adama on the issue of Earth may not be as far apart as some say. Does TOS Adama really believe Earth is out there or does he just hope Earth is out there?

Does Adama reflect the religious views of society? It would look like he doesn't.

Moore borrows a lot more from TOS and related TOS material than many want to admit. Don't beat me. It's just the way I see it.

[BST]

Antelope,

I don't know if I'd base the entire society's "take" on Earth, from Serina's skepticism. While in Saga, it was not revealed that many, if any, other than the Quorum (and that was not even directly stated), believed in or knew of a 13th tribe. It was only during Adama's speech about their quest, that the reference to the 13th tribe and Earth was mentioned.

Later, as we found out, in LPOTG, the hieroglyphics in the temple confirmed that the 13th tribe DID exist and told of their exodus from Kobol.

-more later-

[Antelope]

I think we see in TOS and it appears the new series the same full range of religious belief we see in society. The Book of the Word and our bible are either considered literary truths from God, stories based on fact, or primarily myths depending on your take. TOS Adama is obviously a religious man but he also is one using his best science to help fill in the missing pieces. Mini Adama may or may not be religious but he does know that many will accept the existence of Earth as real. In times of crisis people will listen to the "word of God" if it gives them hope. Eveyone finds religion on the battlefield.

At this point in the new series I think Adama is a skeptic but one who understands the culture he comes from and has an open mind. I am willing to bet he will start seeing signs of Earth as the show progresses. Maybe we will get such a revelation in the final episodes of the season, "Kobol's Last Gleaming"(Lost Planet of the Gods?).

TOS Adama believed in the existence of Earth. It was part of his religion but is was part of his history. He is like a navigator during the days of exploration who tried to read the writings of previous navigators. Myth often held a grain of truth.

The overall themes are very similar. In a way its like reading about different characters but set in the same setting. We get a different perspective but on the same theme.

[Eric Paddon]

"Moore borrows a lot more from TOS and related TOS material than many want to admit."

Sorry Antelope, but repeating an inaccurate premise over and over will still leave you with an inaccurate premise. Moore's ignorance of TOS prior to its airing is already well-documented, and that's the area you've never addressed to my satisfaction.

Also, regarding Serina's comments in the novelization, those are not the sentiments of the character in the actual episode. I refer to the conversation she and Apollo have outside the tomb in Part 2 where she in fact reveals herself to be a person of deep faith (yet another among many reasons why I don't find the novelizations satisfactory at all).

[Senmut]

Yes. Serina comes across quite clearly as someone who believes the faith of her people. She is certainly more the beliver than Apollo at the point whre they land on Kobol. Another bit Moore seems to have utterly missed on purpose. One wonders if he hates the religious aspects of TOS as much as the rest of it?

[martok2112]

"Moore borrows a lot more from TOS and related TOS material than many want to admit."

Sorry Antelope, but repeating an inaccurate premise over and over will still leave you with an inaccurate premise. Moore's ignorance of TOS prior to its airing is already well-documented, and that's the area you've never addressed to my satisfaction.

Also, regarding Serina's comments in the novelization, those are not the sentiments of the character in the actual episode. I refer to the conversation she and Apollo have outside the tomb in Part 2 where she in fact reveals herself to be a person of deep faith (yet another among many reasons why I don't find the novelizations satisfactory at all).

In many cases this is attributable to what (leaving the new Battlestar Galactica out of this) many perceive as canon.

In the case of Star Trek..it is pretty much POLICY that the only things that are regarded as canon are that which appears on film, or in live action televised form.

In the case, of Galactica, it is more of a personal perception. Many people regard what happened in the actual shows of Galactica as canon...and disregard what the novels said. This is a personal choice.

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[Eric Paddon]

I think in the case of TOS, perception of what is and is not "canon" ultimately has to go to what we saw on film, because we have to remember that except for the first two, all of the novelizations were done after the series went off the air as I recall, and thus long after what was on film went over the airwaves.

[Antelope]

A person can have deep religious faith and still not believe in the literal words of the religious book of their chosen faith. Serina could be both deeply religious and believe that Earth was a myth until evidence appears to convience her otherwise.

It would appear in both TOS and the Moore version we have individuals that run the full range of faith. In TOS Adama and Baltar represent the two extremes. Baltar actually scoffs at some of the religious ideas of Adama. I also had the idea that Adama was more motivated in his belief in the historical reality of the Book of the Word then he was motivated by their spiritual significance. Even when dealing with Count Iblis, Adama treated him more as simply a powerful being with limitations then as the devil in our faith systems.

On the Moore unfamilarity with TOS: This is a battle I can never win primarily because those who look at this on both sides see what they want to see. Both sides take a sentence here and a sentence there to show he either does or does not have much knowledge of TOS. I would assume that if anyone was a professional and was remaking a series you would get intimate knowledge of the source material. I believe from various Moore statements that is exactly what Moore did. In addition if you look at the mini you will see that Moore intentionally make things in a manner to create a specific story arc. As such Moore had mapped in at least his mind where the story was going this upcoming season before the mini was ever completed. Now that word is leaking out on the upcoming episodes we are already getting word about plot similarities between Moore's episodes and the more popular TOS episodes (Kobol's Last Gleeming-Lost Planet of the Gods/Living Legend?) . We even see some of the less popular subplots also in use (Bastille Day-Take the Celestra and Gun on Ice Planet Zero?). He also brought in the human-cylons from Galactica 1980 from the start of the mini. Some other TOS themes that I believe were laid down in the mini we will have to wait and see if they appear (best example is Starbuck/Cassie/Athena love triangle possibly being done in the new series as a Tyrol/Callie/Boomer lover triangle). It's funny how in one post you can read people say Moore knows nothing about TOS and then a few post later see people complain about how it appears Moore is copying TOS.

I am with Martok on the canon issues. Since the mini at this point is not linked to TOS it makes its own canon. In TOS we have a few minor changes and canon disputes depending on whether you say Saga of A Star World is a stand alone movie or whether part of the series (Was Baltar executed or not). You also have the issue of BG1980. I see a lot who reject all BG1980 but I also see many who believe that somehow "Return of Starbuck" is canon. I read some prequel stuff that to me changes the nature of my perception of "Saga of A Star World" but is it real or not is in the readers mind.

Opinions are often unique to an individual. As such we are all right in our version of reality. I thank you for sharing your perceptions. In the case of Eric I usually disagree but I often learn something anyway from your detailed knowledge of the show.

[BST]

On the Moore unfamilarity with TOS:

This is a battle I can never win primarily because those who look at this on both sides see what they want to see. Both sides take a sentence here and a sentence there to show he either does or does not have much knowledge of TOS.



Why do you consider this a battle, in the first place? What you are failing to recognize is that we are NOT "taking a sentence here and a sentence there". We are basing our responses on what Ron Moore SAID, in an interview conducted by the Cylon Alliance, in (I believe) May,2003. For the record, he said that in preparation for the mini-series, he only viewed the 3-hour premiere episode. He remarked, when questioned about his "preparation" and that of Tom DeSanto, that since he was only doing, at that time, a re-imagining of the premiere ep, he didn't need to be as familiar with the entire series. Whether he viewed the entire series, at a later date, is immaterial. The question was Moore's familiarity with TOS, at the time that he wrote the Mini-series. That question, he answered, himself.



I would assume that if anyone was a professional and was remaking a series you would get intimate knowledge of the source material. I believe from various Moore statements that is exactly what Moore did.



Please refer to the above response.



In addition in you look at the mini you will see that Moore intentionally make things in a manner to create a specific story arc.



Naturally, he was re-inventing the genre, remember? ;)



As such Moore had mapped in at least his mind where the story was going this upcoming season before the mini was ever completed.



Quite probably. That doesn't mean that he would cull elements from TOS. His own story, going forward from the events of the Mini-Series, may have nothing to do with being parallel, in some respects, to TOS

[Antelope]

"Battle" was a metaphor. I could have said discussion, argument, or point. Nothing meant beyond that. I do see how others see it from a different perspective. I am also open to my being wrong on this.

I read the same interviews. I also read ones that said he had seen ALL episodes before and that he was going to REWATCH certain specific ones especially relating to the beings of light and the Pegasus because those particular ones really interested him.

I also see in his interviews an apparent intentional coyness so as not to give away his plots before they are aired. As such he does not want the viewer to see the mine he is digging. He is coy about TOS the same way he was with "In Harm's Way". I am sure he uses a wide variety of source material little of which he is going to advertise.

Whether he has been familar with TOS from the start as I believe or is familar with TOS now which even many purist now say the results in his scripts will probably reflect some of that knowledge. Since most of us think TOS was great, any influence from TOS either intentional or otherwise is a positive thing for the new series.

I continue to think Moore is a lot truer to the spirit of Battlestar Galactica as envisioned by Larson but never allowed to air then most fans are comfortable with. As such Moore is either well versed in TOS and its behind the scenes history, or TOS themes and plots are not that unique and Moore is hitting them by luck.

I'm a fan of Smallville. It is definitely sexed up, modernized and reimagined but you still see the original story in it. A Superman purist should hate it. I think the difference between TOS and Moore's vision is about on the same level.

[Eric Paddon]

"On the Moore unfamilarity with TOS: This is a battle I can never win primarily because those who look at this on both sides see what they want to see."

Antelope, this is not true. We have simply taken Ron Moore at his word when he said time and again that his viewing experience of TOS since 1979 was one and a half episdoes in the time leading up to when the miniseries aired. That means he did NOT go back to the original series for inspiration in any way. You can make a subjective argument that the miniseries isn't as anti-religious as people like me think, but what you can not do is twist the objective factual record into something that suits your agenda, because a square peg will not fit in a round hole no matter how much you try to argue the point.

[Eric Paddon]

"A person can have deep religious faith and still not believe in the literal words of the religious book of their chosen faith. Serina could be both deeply religious and believe that Earth was a myth until evidence appears to convience her otherwise."

What evidence in TOS is there that *anyone* thought Earth was a myth? (other than Baltar) If Serina didn't believe it, she sure as heck was being rather tight-lipped about it all throughout Saga and LPOTG. In fact, she was going to rather great lengths to encourage Adama, and her whole conversation with Apollo where her faith becomes apparent has to do with her belief in Divine Providence leading Adama to find Kobol for a reason.

[Ioraptor]

After watching TOS and the Mini several times recently I have come to the conclusion that Mr Moore indeed has a very good understanding of Battlestar Galactica, but not understanding defined as 'canon' knowledge.
Rather I feel he has a deep understanding of the character roles and underlying themes. His is a writers perspective, not a fans. Or rather, he is a fan of the writing ideas present in TOS but not the finished product.

The truth is he did 'rip off' TOS in a fashion that required close attention to detail.
He extrapolates his character development from very brief sketches in TOS.
For instance, Apollo argues with Adama concerning the plan to clear mines. Its one of the only times you see Apollo and Adama argue in TOS, but from that argument the seeds of nuGalacticas father son conflict rose. Go watch it, you'll see what I mean!
Moore is taking these scenes and extrapolating whole story arcs for his series.

The mere suggestion of religious doubt in TOS he has blown up into a raging question of morality and leadership in the mini.

TOS Starbucks gentle rebellious nature he has exploded/exaggerated into nuGalacticas fiery lady Starbuck.

The list goes on. He is remaking TOS in the image of his own writing style, priorities, and personal imagination. After reading his interviews I am certain that he is not disrespectful of TOS fans. Its just that he cannot make the product they would like. He has to make a product he can sell in a business environment that has changed very much since 1978. The reality of the business of television has little mercy for sentiment.

Obviously people are going to hate it. Especially if they enjoyed TOS purely as it was...........

I'm sorry that the product of his talent is not the Battlestar Galactica that many desire to see. I'm lucky because I enjoy his stlye, but I am certain there will be dissappointment ahead because what I would choose to emphasize will not be what he chooses to emphasize. I suspect nuGalactica will be very much character driven, where I would prefer to see stories that explore astrophysics and technology (and how they impact human life).
Sigh.
If only we could each make our own Battlestar Galactica!
But it is not to be.
There will always be dissappointment in someone elses vision.


For those who wish to see a Continuation (like myself :) ) our hope lies with CFF and DeSanto/Larsen. Mr Moores Galactica will live or die on its own merits (I'm hoping it will do well and last long!). It can only help the Continuation effort as far as I'm concerned.

oh oh! I'm rambling on and on, which means that my stomach is empty.
I'm gonna have pizza! Bye all.

[martok2112]

Well told, Ioraptor. Well told! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[Antelope]

Ioraptor:

You duplicate my thoughts but said it in a much better way. Thank you.

On another thread we once discussed what would you change about TOS if you could. Many said "nothing". Some said a few things here and there (especially Carillon). I think you hit the nail on the head with Moore. Moore "knows" TOS quite well. He simply doesn't think it would work in today's environment and/or thinks it is a fine outline but could be so much better.

I am not saying I agree with Moore but that's what I see.

If you go back as I have done since coming to the Battlestar web world and read the interviews and articles about TOS done at the time it was made and in the years after especially relating to what Larson said needed to be done to make Battlestar a continuing success you see a loose description of what Moore has actually done. Larson wanted a darker adult Galactica and it appears Moore took his advice. As you stated Moore looked at TOS (and even BG80) and has taken basic characters and subplots and blown up the ones he thought would be really good.

Other than the mythos and character names I wonder how many people would have been happy if Larson would have continued the original Galactica but followed the model he actually described. It would have not been appropriate for family viewing and the characters would have been flawed. I think if Larson had his way, today a lot of us would be talking about how Larson made a great show and then a year later destroyed it. It's something to think about.

[shiningstar]

Going through some of my paperbacks, today, I found this interesting little morsel.

It was in the "Battlestar Galactica" (Saga) paperback novelization, by Glen Larson and Robert Thurston, pp 84-85. I'll just transcribe some lines of dialogue:

I reading that. Thanks Bst. :thumbsup:

[larocque6689]

Who is to say that God (or rather, some perverted idea of the deity) wasn't on the Cylons side? In the form of the fallen angel Count Iblis?

In the original Battlestar Galactica series the Colonials were decadent and corrupt, if you accept as "canon" dialog between Adama and Apollo on Uri and the Caprican renaissance. "No wonder our world fell apart".

As for El Queda and their ilk - I recognize that their religious idealogy is at the source of what they do. But they practice a perversion of religion.

Who programmed "God" into the Cylons?

[larocque6689]

In fact, she was going to rather great lengths to encourage Adama, and her whole conversation with Apollo where her faith becomes apparent has to do with her belief in Divine Providence leading Adama to find Kobol for a reason.

Serina believed in the Colonial Scriptures, which she said brought the Galactica back to Kobol. And she wanted Apollo to believe too. Apolllo's turning point was on Serina's deathbed where he said he now also believed in an eternity. Apollo was turning away from skepticism.

Apollo embraced his father's religious heritage in a very large way in "War of the Gods". He was truly his father's son.

[Eric Paddon]

"Who is to say that God (or rather, some perverted idea of the deity) wasn't on the Cylons side? In the form of the fallen angel Count Iblis?"

The response to that point is that the "no wonder our world fell apart" from a man of faith like Adama is that society became too decadent and materialistic (just like Kobol) and not faithful to traditional religion that it made its own downfall inevitable at the hands of the Cylons. That would be perfectly consistent within the traditional Judeo-Christian concept of man as a fallen race inviting his own difficulties because of his penchant for sin.

[Antelope]

"Who is to say that God (or rather, some perverted idea of the deity) wasn't on the Cylons side? In the form of the fallen angel Count Iblis?"

The response to that point is that the "no wonder our world fell apart" from a man of faith like Adama is that society became too decadent and materialistic (just like Kobol) and not faithful to traditional religion that it made its own downfall inevitable at the hands of the Cylons. That would be perfectly consistent within the traditional Judeo-Christian concept of man as a fallen race inviting his own difficulties because of his penchant for sin.

Being that Larson is supposedly a religious man himself this theme could come straight out of the Old Testament as it is exactly the same reason the Jews tell themselves to explain the destruction of their nation at the hands of the Babylonians.

[Antelope]

Who programmed "God" into the Cylons?

I think this ultimately will be a big theme in the series.

[Ioraptor]

There is this idea floating around in our society and in the fictional society of the Colonials that because a being is 'designed' or 'manufactured' that it is somehow lacking or less than its human creator.

The idea that someone programmed god into the Cylons is a good example of this problem.

It assumes that the Cylons are bound by programs and limited in their judgement of the universe. The Colonials go so far as to say that the Cylons have no souls. Over and over they have misunderstood and underestimated the Cylons because of this prejudice. Ultimately it led to their destruction.

The Cylons might believe in god for the same reasons we do. What intelligent being wouldnt see the possibility of intelligent design in our amazing universe?

The cautionary tale of TNS should be debated and considered seriously. We are much closer to creating AI than we are to creating FTL drives or other fantastic technologies. I wouldnt be surprised if we see a self aware designed intelligence within my lifetime.
If we embrace this idea that they are less than us, or soulless beings, or fit only to be slaves, than we are going to earn some serious resentment (if and when such beings become capable of conceiving resentment).
Rather we should consider them our children and treat them as such. We should consider them members of the family of man and make sure that they have an equal investment in the future of Earths civilization.
Eventually such beings will possess attributes that are superior to our hit or miss evolved mechanisms.....
They will supass us if we are not careful, and is that necessarilly a bad thing? We should wish to see our children do better than us..........right?
But if we are bad parents they may not take care of us in our old age :/: .

If we cant deal with these issues responsibly we shouldnt create AI. Perhaps it would be better to develop our own capabilities before we create children that can destroy us?

[Antelope]

In TOS we see the IL series cylons seem to be on the same sentient level as humans including emotions. In BG80 on the "Return of Starbuck" we see that even the centurian is really not that different from man. Moore's version just takes it a step further by removing the metal container. Is Cylon 6 really that different than Baltar's Lucifer if you took away the sex scenes? We saw in TOS that cylons had both logic, deception, jealousy, and team spirit. We don't see familial love or do we? The cylons on Gomorrah seemed to be in family units and going to a cultural (political) event. Maybe other than how they reproduce (or more correctly produce) the cylons in TOS weren't that much different than humans after all.

[Rowan]

"On the Moore unfamilarity with the original Battlestar Galactica series : This is a battle I can never win primarily because those who look at this on both sides see what they want to see."

Antelope, this is not true. We have simply taken Ron Moore at his word when he said time and again that his viewing experience of the original Battlestar Galactica series since 1979 was one and a half episdoes in the time leading up to when the miniseries aired. That means he did NOT go back to the original series for inspiration in any way. You can make a subjective argument that the miniseries isn't as anti-religious as people like me think, but what you can not do is twist the objective factual record into something that suits your agenda, because a square peg will not fit in a round hole no matter how much you try to argue the point.I just thought an update to this might be helpful here is an excerpt from a letter from Ron Moore


Date: 09/05/2002
From: RonDMoore

Also, there's a misperception that I didn't even watch the original pilot until after I pitched the show, but that's not true (I was either misquoted in some interview or I misspoke). The sequence of events was: I got a call from David Eick asking if I'd be interested. I thought about it over a weekend, had an idea for remaking the pilot and then agreed to work out a pitch. A couple of weeks of work followed, during which time I watched the pilot at least three times before we ever went in to pitch it to first the studio and then the network.

if you wish to read the entire letter it can be read here: http://www.galactica2003.net/articles/moore090502.shtml

[larocque6689]

http://cylon.accountsupport.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1810&highlight=rdm

G2003.net was sourcing from RonDMoore posts made at Sciffy. View below for a near-complete listing:

RDM posts at the scifi board
9/3/2002 - http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/3315/91734
9/5/2002 - http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/3315/91782
9/20/2002 - http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/3315/92130
12/5/2002 - http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/3315/316222
12/6/2002 - http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/3315/316256
4/30/2003 - http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/531/349

[Eric Paddon]

Rowan, your update doesn't change one thing with regard to what I wrote. I said that he only watched the cut down pilot and half of another episode in the 25 years leading up to when the miniseries *aired*. And that makes him totally unqualified to render any competent or fair judgment regarding what did and did not work about the original series. For Moore to call that kind of characterizing "misleading" is another example of him shading the truth again, because he's attributing views to his critics that were never expressed (not in my case at least).

The point of the attack is that he did not go back and watch the series as a whole, and on that point there can be no spinning his way out of the hole he dug himself in.

[Ioraptor]

Thanks larocque6689 and Rowan for the excellent links.. I missed some of those posts when they originally appeared and they confirm my thoughts about Ron Moore.
It was nice of him to post on SciFi, he must have been a very busy man if you consider what stage the production was at that time.
I wish he would post again with his thoughts on the series........

[Ioraptor]

Hey just read the new interview with Ron Moore!

http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com/article.php?Article=534

And he actually sort of answered the question about whether the Cylons were programmed with god or found the concept on their own;

"Ron Moore: I’ve thought about Iblis, but haven’t really gone down that path, frankly. I kind of see the Cylons as a race of mechanized beings that went off and evolved on their own. Certainly, I’ve thought about the idea that they had help, and I’ve thought about using Iblis in some sort of storyline, but right now I’m not leaning in that direction."

[Eric Paddon]

"Ron Moore: I’ve thought about Iblis, but haven’t really gone down that path, frankly. I kind of see the Cylons as a race of mechanized beings that went off and evolved on their own. Certainly, I’ve thought about the idea that they had help, and I’ve thought about using Iblis in some sort of storyline, but right now I’m not leaning in that direction."

His answer is yet another reason for me to despise what he has done with the Galactica name and franchise, as if I needed another one. In the above statement he manages to completely destroy the whole meaning of what the struggle was about in Galactica.

[shiningstar]

His answer is yet another reason for me to despise what he has done with the Galactica name and franchise, as if I needed another one. In the above statement he manages to completely destroy the whole meaning of what the struggle was about in Galactica.

I know what you mean Eric ........right now he sounds like a politician :...: As
IF we Don't have ENOUGH OF THOSE now! :no:

[Ioraptor]

I take it you really enjoyed the 'Iblis as the devil' thing then. That stuff annoyed me as a kid, and I was going to a hardcore Catholic grade school when those episodes appeared.

The thing I liked best about the Iblis episodes was when Adama levitated a marble or something on his desk. To show that Iblis' power wasnt so far beyond what the Colonials could accomplish.

That was cool.

[Eric Paddon]

The Iblis as the Devil subtext is what elevates the whole saga of Galactica to a richer dimension overall. It explains why the conflict with the Cylons has to be seen in the supposedly "simplistic" good-evil terms and not the typical cliched shades-of-gray approach, and it also makes abundantly clear that this is a Universe where the presence of absolute good and evil is a reality.

[shiningstar]

The Iblis as the Devil subtext is what elevates the whole saga of Galactica to a richer dimension overall. It explains why the conflict with the Cylons has to be seen in the supposedly "simplistic" good-evil terms and not the typical cliched shades-of-gray approach, and it also makes abundantly clear that this is a Universe where the presence of absolute good and evil is a reality. well said Eric :thumbsup:

[Ioraptor]

Here is some food for thought;

Theological Themes in Science Fiction (http://anitraweb.org/books/sffh/theology.html)

Here is a good quote from that page;

"If God has ever spoken in any Scripture, then God is capable of speaking to any of us right now -- and does, in every bit of creation around us. But every single one of us is just as capable of being blind bassackwards dumb in our interpretation of what God says as any ancient hidebound traditional teacher -- the closest we'll ever get to understanding truth is in a dialogue between the present and tradition. "