Kara Thrace - Starbuck or Sheba?

[Antelope]

I have a question for those of you who enjoyed the SCIFI Battlestar Galactica miniseries:

Do you think that the character of Kara Thrace is actually based on the TOS character of Sheba as opposed to the more common belief that she is based on Starbuck as a result of her callsign?

Here's my thinking on the subject:

The miniseries and the future series is an attempt to make a darker, grittier and in many ways more realistic version of TOS. By realistic I imply that Moore is trying to model the colonial experience to reflect a greater alignment with modern American military and civilian society.

In the American military it is not now proper for a son or daughter to serve under the command of his or her parent. It is for this reason that I believe that Lee Adama was brought on board the Galactica not as a member of the crew but as a visiting pilot from another unit there only for a ceremony. If we are to get Sheba onto the Galactica at some point in Moore's universe how would we get her there? In an American based military system there would not be a daughter of a Commander Caine serving on the same Battlestar under his command. The TOS Sheba character therefor can not be on board the Battlestar Pegasus in a future Moore episode. You put her on the Galactica from the start.

Sheba was introduced as a brash and arrogant viper pilot in her first episode in TOS. She was described as Commander Caine's best pilot. Kara Thrace also was introduced as a brash and arrogant viper pilot. Commander Adama describes Kara Thrace as the best pilot on the Galactica.

After Serena's death Sheba seems to evolve into the friend and potential love interest of Apollo. Without Serena in the mini, Kara Thrace has already assummed the role of Lee Adama's friend and potential love interest.

Sheba was taken under the wing of TOS Adama. She was treated by him like a member of his family. We already see that Kara Thrace has a special relationship to Commander Adama. The issues with Zak seem to have made her into something closer to an in law relationship then simply that of Commander and subordinant.

Moore in my judgement seems to have intentionally patterned his series to emulate the relationships we see in the later episodes of TOS. What we see in my opinion between Lee Adama and Kara Thrace is based on the relationship of Apollo and Sheba.

If there is someone with the call sign Sheba on the Battlestar Pegasus in a future Moore episode I highly doubt she will be the daughter of Commander and so long as Kara Thrace is alive any future Sheba will find the TOS Sheba role already filled.

Potential opening scene in Moore's episode "Living Legend":

As Kara Thrace and Lee Apollo return from a long range patrol under heavy cylon attack with little hope of reaching the Galactica suddenly vipers appear from nowhere to save them. With the help of the additional vipers they destroy their cylon pursuers. Lee says, "I burned a lot of fuel in the fight. I don't know if I can make it back to the Galactica." A viper pilot from the group that rescued them say, "Follow us. You can land on the Pegasus. We thought we were the only ones left. " Kara Thrace interrupts, "The Pegasus? It can't be? Is my father alive?" The Pegasus viper pilot says, "When we get back we can check his name on the personnel data base. Who is your father?" Kara Thrace replies, "He was the Commander of the Pegasus, Commander Caine Thrace." The Pegasus viper pilot replies, "Your father has been keeping us alive since this war started. He is alive, in command, and you will be seeing him soon."

The mini had no TOS character sex changes. It simply had some name changes as part of a marketing gimmick. :eek:

[Eric Paddon]

"The mini had no TOS character sex changes. It simply had some name changes as part of a marketing gimmick."

Sorry Antelope, but that argument just does not wash with me. This character has absolutely no resemblance to Sheba, and was designed to blatantly become a female Starbuck in every way, right down to a weak Dirk Benedict imitation in her first extended scene. Until I see a cut scene from TOS that shows Sheba smoking and being devoid of her femininity, that argument has no case IMO.

[LucianG]

antelope,

You've put together an interesting theory, with some good points, but I'm with Eric. In addition to his points, RDM claimed that he only watched the original pilot episode before he wrote the pilot, so he wouldn't have seen the Sheba character, though I suppose he could have had some memory of her from the original series (IF he watched it at all when it came out, which I doubt). Whatever his intent, he's now turned the BG-03 Starbuck character into what I see as a very unsympathetic character, and if he ever decides to introduce a Sheba character, we may end up with a twisted Starbuck-Cassie-Athena type triangle with Apollo in the center.

L

[LucianG]

Also, I forgot to note the Boomer sex-change. I'm not sure who Boomer would have equated to from the original series with this theory, but considering she was a Cylon, RDM went so far off the ranch as to make the question meaningless anyway.

[jewels]

As shown so far, the character lacks the grace of both. Sheba was a warrior AND a fine lady (much like the one who played her). Starbuck (not Kara) had qualities that I'm not sure the producers can even fathom: they are so hung up on the disfunction and flaws of humanity that they fail to see the strength that we have in reaching beyond what we think we can achieve, or in reaching out in the protective stance of a warrior guarding his people, when it costs every ounce of our own self-preservation.

Anne herself said that at least Sheba hadn't been reimaged.

Antelope, the characters are deliberately twisted shallow caricatures of the originals because that was the execs subliminal agenda. You've proven it's a remake of "In Harm's Way" convincingly. This line of rationalizing I just don't go with. Kara simply has none of the winning female qualities of Sheba. And Sheba had none of the obnoxious rebellion of Kara.

[Antelope]

Also, I forgot to note the Boomer sex-change. I'm not sure who Boomer would have equated to from the original series with this theory, but considering she was a Cylon, RDM went so far off the ranch as to make the question meaningless anyway.

My original question is primarily asked to Galactica fans who like the mini or at least have an open mind to comparisons between the mini and TOS. I respect the opinions of all Galactica fans but have found that the vast majority of people who dislike the mini can not discuss any aspect of the mini with an open mind or through a positive light including the trivial. I think the question I ask goes to the heart however of the question of whether Moore's universe is or is not in the spirit of Battlestar Galactica. Those who already decided it is not won't see such things regardless of whether it exist or not. I think perception is often shaped by what we want to see. (Maybe I want to see a link --- that's an open minded thought!) :D

Boomer is an interesting question and again I think there really is no sex change but another name change marketing gimmick. Mini Boomer is based on TOS Athena. How are they alike:

Both Athena and mini-Boomer are ethnically as the American census forms say Asian/Pacific Islander in origin. They are both dark haired beauties!

Both were the original love interest of the strong fan popular woman chasing male character (TOS Starbuck-CPO Tyrol). Athena became involved in a love triangle competing against Cassiopeia. We already see the ground work being laid for mini-Boomers love triangle competition against the blond beauty this time named Calley (Calley and Cassie--names are very close even).

Both Athena and Mini-Boomer became the mother figure to Boxey after the death of his mother.

Both Athena and mini-Boomer were warriors but neither served as viper pilots. The change to reflect the American military put mini-Boomer on a differnent type craft but her military role is pretty much the same.

Jewels mentioned that Sheba is not feminine enough to her to be Sheba. I mention that many people including anti-mini TOS fans will say they didn't like the Sheba character as introduced in "Living Legend" because of her arrogant ways. I have read many times TOS fans say Sheba "grew" on them as her character was toned down and feminized.

The concept of the human cylon comes out of BSG1980 and is a natural outgrowth of what TOS Adama (or was it Apollo?) said in reference to why the cylons imitate human form in their robotic forms.

You can find pretty much all the character roles and relationships in the mini in the later TOS episodes. I am not saying they are identical. There is a goal to darken the show (Larson's original wish also) and make it more in tune with "realism" but the characters are a lot closer to TOS than many can or want to see. I would love to discuss this with those willing to look, which are primarily mini-fans. For those that have the blinders on don't worry I hope to talk with you about the Continuation if it ever comes. My Dad just told me he is getting the DVD box set for Father's Day from his wife so I think the whole extended family will be watching a lot more Battlestar Galactica very soon! :salute:

[thomas7g]

Lucian- he could always make a few characters gay. :)




regarding Thrace ... I dunno. I think we bag too much on the negative. Any character can be redeemed. Its true I don't like her as is. But its a different series entirely. Its not BG. And if they do ALOT of work, they can make her interesting. I kinda understand where Moore wants to go on her. I just think she came out too butch. But how she ends up depends on the writers. Look at Major Margarite HotLips Houlihan on Mash. Her character did a 180 in terms of depth. And really became noble as a result. Charles Emerson Winchester III was a poumpous winbag. But as time went on, he got so many wonderfully noble poignant scenes that you really ended up loving the character. I know alot of this will be despised by us old guards, AND i KNOW PEOPLE WILL DISLIKE ME FOR THIS OPINION. But really, whether this character becomes noble or stays despised is all dependent on the writing of future episodes.

but regarding the original topic. I think she definitely came from the original starbuck. Its just very very altered. And we are seeing alot of Katey in the new Starbuck. I also agree that Moore didn't know enough about BG at the time to base her on anyone else. Or even cared to look at the rest of the show.


oops... I just noticed I reedited a sentence and made it caps....grrr... I am still adapting to this new keyboard. Oh how I wish I could go back in time and THWACK the guy who came up with qwerty!

:)

[Rowan]

I am still adapting to this new keyboard. Oh how I wish I could go back in time and THWACK the guy who came up with qwerty!

:)I had no idea what qwerty was so I had to look it up....

Pronounced kwer-tee, refers to the arrangement of keys (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/Q/key.html) on a standard English computer keyboard (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/Q/keyboard.html) or typewriter. The name derives from the first six characters (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/Q/character.html) on the top alphabetic line of the keyboard.



The arrangement of characters on a QWERTY keyboard was designed in 1868 by Christopher Sholes, the inventor of the typewriter. According to popular myth, Sholes arranged the keys in their odd fashion to prevent jamming on mechanical typewriters by separating commonly used letter combinations. However, there is no evidence to support (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/Q/support.html) this assertion, except that the arrangement does, in fact, inhibit fast typing. With the emergence of ball-head electric typewriters and computer keyboards, on which jamming is not an issue, new keyboards designed for speed typing have been invented. The best-known is called a Dvorak keyboard (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/Q/Dvorak_keyboard.html). Despite their more rational designs, these new keyboards have not received wide acceptance.

[Eric Paddon]

Sorry Antelope, but disliking the miniseries as I do, does not equate lack of an "open mind" on the question you posed. I made my judgment exactly on what I saw, and what I saw was someone doing a blatant imitiation of Dirk Benedict's mannerisms in her first extended scene right down to the prop cigar, and whether you like the miniseries or not, that is not characteristic of Sheba's behavior, it is a blatant attempt to give us a female Starbuck in every last little detail.

Ron Moore's towering ignorance of the original series is something he long since fessed up to before the miniseries aired and it totally lacks credibility that he had any recollection of Sheba at all given that all he watched was the hacked down pilot episode before he put his thoughts to paper. That factor needs to be considered as well, and that too is just making note of an objective fact when forming a judgment, rather than reading something into it that isn't there, which it seems to me is where the whole "female Starbuck is Sheba" argument stems from (and in what I would consider to be a not so open-minded attempt on the part of those who like the miniseries to grasp for straws in looking for linkage to the original series in areas where it isn't there).

[jewels]

Psst. Eric it wasn't a prop cigar. Real one. Actually made her sick. Can't think of a better reason to drop the cigar from the character than that, can you? :)

Dirk really smokes them. (A thought which makes my husband turn green when he notices it in a scene. ) But since he smokes them himself, and is the gender that's expected to engage in said vice, he's more convincing at it, where I just find Kara (and any woman with a cigar) offensive. I'm biased. Hate smoking & smoke. Nothing worse than a woman with a cigar. Yucky.

Katee does have my sympathies if she continues to have to "smoke those stinking weeds".

[thomas7g]

I don't think its grasping at straws. Not at all. We've all talked of how Sheba was already a female warrior. This is all just fun lighthearted, no agenda talk. :)

Though like I said, I don't see any connections. And I should also probably add the legal rights to Battlestar Galactica were hotly fought over in court. And the rights to Sheba, Cain and Pegasus may be something that Universal may still have to be legally acquired. I'm guessing, but the original contract was for a pilot, then extended for a 3hour pilot and 2 2-hour episodes of Battlestar Galactica. So The Living Legend maaaay be a seperate addition to that contract where Larson's bargaining rights were stronger. And I also have heard that he did have creator's right to those characters clearly laid out before the rights to the show itself was settled in court.

[Rowan]

where I just find Kara (and any woman with a cigar) offensive. I'm biased. Hate smoking & smoke. Nothing worse than a woman with a cigar. Yucky.
I hate cigarettes but I do like to smoke the occasional cigar:duck:

[Dawg]

I have been contemplating posting in this thread at all, considering my well-known disdain for the RDM production. But I find myself very much in agreement with Tom on this - and I'll take the thought a step further.

Yes, parts of the character of Kara Thrace appear based on Starbuck, not Sheba (not at all on Sheba - any link there, Antelope, is all in your mind). But Kara Thrace portrays the worst, most superficial aspects of Starbuck as Dirk Benedict portrayed him.

When we are introduced to Starbuck in the 1978 premier, his first scene portrays an act of cameraderie and compassion for a younger warrior. His next scenes (after the card game) are battle scenes, and we see his shock and anger. We are introduced to his irreverence, his "appreciation" of women, his live-for-the-moment attitude - but we also know exactly where his heart is. He's a loyal and loving friend willing to put his own life on the line for another. We learned this in three short hours.

Kara Thrace is a bitch. Period. And that's all we learn of her in four long hours.

That may change as the series progresses, as Tom suggests - it all depends on the writing and storytelling. But if all we come away with in four hours is that, it doesn't bode well.

Antelope, you keep trying to show links between the two productions you know full well do not exist - you yourself proved that the RDM production is a space-based remake of the John Wayne/Kirk Douglas movie "In Harm's Way". The leaps you seem to want to be making are ludicrous, frankly - you cannot have the same relationships between characters if you don't have the same characters to begin with. This is a basic logic that seems to escape you.

You're trying too hard to bring the two together. It can't be done. They are far too different.

I have spoken. ;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[thomas7g]

you're right Jewels. Dirk is alot more comfortable looking with a cigar in hand.

As for Katee, keep the cigar smoking. Let her "deal with it" lol. Its nothing big. But well... she wanted this. Let her have it! I think CFF should raise money to buy her the strongest cigars on the planet. And mail them to the production so she can smoke them in every scene.


:)

[CommanderTaggart]

Who's Katee Sackhoff?

[thomas7g]

Oh just a poor starving actress who's dying for a few good fumerellos but can't afford them.

;)

[jewels]

tommy! heeheheheheehehehe

Sorry antelope, we kinda thrashed your thread, but the logic wasn't there this time.

[LucianG]

antelope526 wrote:

My original question is primarily asked to Galactica fans who like the mini or at least have an open mind to comparisons between the mini and TOS. I respect the opinions of all Galactica fans but have found that the vast majority of people who dislike the mini can not discuss any aspect of the mini with an open mind or through a positive light including the trivial.

Italics added for emphasis.

As an reasonably intelligent individual, I can discuss, debate, and constructively support either side of most issues of which I have some degree of familiarity. I think most people who frequent this board could probably do the same. Whether we choose to do so, of course, may be another matter.

In this case, as I've said, while I didn't like the mini-series, there are aspects of it that had some interest to me. Unlike the original series, the Starbuck character wasn't one of them exactly because of the numerous changes, including chromosonal. RDM may have stolen a few aspects of the Sheba character in writing the new Starbuck, but those are largely by chance rather than design (female, great pilot, feelings for Apollo). Rather than go on (since it's bedtime!), jewels' first post in this thread was a very nice summary.

[Antelope]

My request for mini-fans isn't a slight I am just curious, do those who liked the mini see this or am a lone wolf in the area. Unfortunately mini-fans seem in short supply these past days. Thanks however for the interesting answers especially from Tom, Jewels, and Lucian.

On the "In Harm's Way" subject. I look at "In Harm's Way" being the basis for the mini in a similar way to how I look at the Dirty Dozen and the Guns of Navarrone being the basis for Gun On Ice Planet Zero and Patton and Midway being the basis for Living Legend. There is definitely a strong similarity especially to "In Harm's Way" but I still think they are Galactica characters in all episodes.

I would be curious if the Commander Caine type figure that will supposedly appear in the series will turn out to be Kara Thrace's father.

Since I do think Moore is familiar with TOS far more than he admits and his more recent interviews increasingly allude to it I wonder if anyone outside of me sees TOS based characters in some of the less contreversial roles.

Is President Roslin based on TOS Siress Tinia?

Is Gaeta based on TOS Omega?

Omega always seemed an undeveloped character in TOS with a lot of potential. Siress Tinia on the other hand had the potential to become a major character if her role was continued in a TOS season 2. I see President Roslin showing us where the Siress Tinia character might have gone.

As a Moore and Galactica optimist I am hoping to see familiar themes in the new series. Anyone want to bet $10 we get the Tyrol, Boomer, Callie love triangle I predict (because Moore is copying Starbuck, Athena, Cassiopeia)?

For those that think I see everything the same as TOS I also predict that Boxey is a cylon in a Moore version!

[Eric Paddon]

Antelope, your use of the term "based" I think is the real problem, because it presumes a knowlege of the original series that Moore simply put, does not possess. He has admitted what he did and did not watch in the last 25 years before he started writing, and we might as well just leave it at that.

If Moore really knew more about the series than he admits to, he wouldn't have forgotten about the role Athena played in the series, nor would he have cribbed from Planet Of The Apes by using the term "Sacred Scrolls" rather than "Book Of The Word", to name just a couple examples.

Fans of the miniseries who like these characters are going to have to like them for what they are ultimately: Total originals except for female Starbuck who was blatantly done in a way designed to call attention to the original male version.

[thomas7g]

Have to agree with that main point. Whatever similarity there is between Roslin or Gaeta and a TOS character has little to do with referencing the original.

Gaeta is just your typical bridge personel. Like Uhura or Sulu. You have a captain, and the guys who go "YES SIR!". Just like when you do a show with fighter craft it isn['t unusual to have a mechanic. Even though the original didn't have one. Shows like Baa Baa Black Sheep did.

Roslin is just a female polition. I think she owes more to the evolution of women's roles in soceity then to what really was a minor guest character in the old show. Its only natural to make a president character and to add that female twsit to the concept now. So maybe she owes more to Captain Janeway than Siress Tinia.

[Antelope]

Good take on President Roslin, although I do think whether intentionally or by coincidence she does have a lot in common with the character of Siress Tinia. Whether by intention or accident Moore did seem to shoe horn one seasons worth of TOS character end state development into the mini. I just have been coming around after much thought to believe this has to be more than coincidence. Since I seem to be coming to that conclusion I notice statements Moore makes in his interviews that seem to confirm he has a much greater grasp of TOS than we generally believe. Minor things like Paddon' mention of scrolls versus books are the kinds of minor mistakes any one including a fan could make. In TOS we have many examples of problems with colonial word usage but I don't thing anyone would say Larson didn't know TOS.

I guess I see that there is a continuum of continuity. No matter how much one dislikes the mini you can't honestly say there is nothing from TOS in the mini. Some things are obvious like we still have a Battlestar named Galactica. We still have 12 colonies and a quest for the thirteenth. We still have fighters that are called and recognizably vipers. The cylons still destroy the colonies and all the other Battlestars. We still have a rag tag fleet. The human that causes the downfall is still named Baltar. We still have a Commander Adama and a Colonel Tigh. You can go down the list if you are objective. I am sure if you wrote out a master list of every fact about the mini versus TOS you would find that the mini is definitely Battlestar Galactica TOS based but whether it is 25% or 75% TOS is a subjective view.

I just speculate that Moore may have held truer to TOS than many people think. I see a lot of things that may be coincidence or just maybe is TOS coming through. I also think that it is fairly reasonable to believe that if Larson wanted to make his darker more adult version of TOS he could in one episode have brought TOS up to speed to wear Moore is today. Here is an example of a scene from episode one of TOS season 2 that could easily bridge a large part of the gap:

Siress Tinia enters Adamas quarters.

Tinia: "Adama we need to talk about returning the military to the control of the colonial civilian authority. You still reconize that the Council of 12 is the legitamate government"

Adama: "Now that so much time has passed and our people have been through so much we need to talk about things that I have thus far kept to myself. The people must have hope."

Tinia: "I know they must have hope but we need to move to normalcy. The wishes of the people as expressed by the Council of 12 must be respected."

Adama: "You don't understand but you must if we are to survive. I am a religious man but I have always lived in reality. I have tried to be the face of hope and optimism for our people but I have been plagued by doubts I dare not utter. If something was to happen to me someone has to know the reality of our situation. I have read the sacred words of the Lord's of Kobol and believe in my heart there was an Earth once upon a time but the reality is I have no idea where it lay. I had hope that Terra was Earth but it seems it is not. Or maybe it was once upon a time but now their world is as hostile as the ones we fled. We need to move on to put time and distance between us and the cylons. Maybe we will be in space for a generation or more. I doubt we will ever find Earth but the people must believe it is there so we don't start fighting among ourselves."

Tinia: "So this is your secret. There is no Earth."

Adama: "There's more. We discovered soon after the fall of the colonies that the cylons have a model that appears in human form. This is our closest garded secret. Only myself, Colonel Tigh, and Captain Apollo, and now you knows. We can not let everyone become a suspect. Fear would spread throughout the fleet. It is for this very reason we must keep military and civilian control separate. I trust my inner circle of warriors I have known for many yahrnen before the halocaust but the members of the council as you know are mostly people we did not know before our exodus. I am lucky our own families knew each other in our youth on Caprica or I probably wouldn't trust you. The burden of this knowledge is great. I think it is taking a toll on Colonel Tigh."

Tinia: "Now things seem so much clearer. We will confide in each other. I will hold your secrets. I think we now have an understanding. The council will control things social and you will control things military. As President of the quorum if the question ever arises I will say I approved or suggested whatever military path we take."

Adama: "I fear the dark times have only begun. I pray we are both up to the tasks ahead."

[thomas7g]

There are alot of the same elements. Its undeniable uses the basic BG story elements. But the reason why we say its a different show cause the heart of the original isn't there. What equally made it BG, besides the vipers and cylons, were the cameraderie and sense of family and simply a sense of fun.

So right now its apples and oranges. Both have rinds. Both have seeds. Both are plants that you eat. They ain't metallic. They aint purple. They don't run on batteries. They both thrive under sunlight and both rot if you leave them out for too long. They have alot of similarities but they both taste different. And its not something people mistake one for another.

There is nothing wrong with seeing the shows as similiar. There is nothing wrong with seeing the shows as completely different. Both points have valid arguements. I think its up to individual preferences how you see it.

Though personally, I prefer oranges. And this new show does feel completely foreign to me.
:D

[Eric Paddon]

By your own admission Antelope, you are only engaging in speculation when you make assumptions about Moore supposedly knowing more about TOS, and frankly I don't think that kind of assumption is particularly helpful when the documented record shows otherwise. This is coming off as an attempt to make the square peg fit in the round hole, and no matter how much you try to hammer it in, it still does not fit. The point I made about "Book Of The Word" is mentioned in multiple episodes, and would stick in the mind a lot more than one obscure character in a subpar episode of the series that we know Moore didn't watch ("Baltar's Escape") would for those with a general familiarity with the series.

You keep making the presumption your take is "objective" but frankly all I'm seeing is a rather unobjective determination to make things fit in a way that can somehow make the miniseries less distasteful to those of us who watched it and saw that any similiarities to TOS are most definitely purely coincidental.

[Eric Paddon]

One other thing, Antelope. This speculative "Season 2" bit between Tinia and Adama you constructed to try and draw parallels to Moore could never have happened in a legit second season. Earth's reality is made clear in several episodes, "Lost Planet Of The Gods", "The Long Patrol", "War Of The Gods" and "Experiment In Terra" (and here I am talking about direct knowledge revealed to the characters and not something they miss like the Apollo XI signal in "Hand Of God").

Adama pursues this goal because he has faith, and he has seen that faith borne out. I think it's laughable to suggest that anything resembling the Roslin-Adama conversation could have happened in the real Galactica universe unless one takes Moore's approach of not paying attention to what happened.

[Antelope]

I am a Battlestar fan and didn't catch or notice the scroll versus word thing. I bet outside of the internet fan world few people would. Although some say the interviews of Moore show a man with little knowledge of TOS, I read the same interviews and see a man with a lot of knowledge who is trying not to reveal where he is going. Only time will tell if other TOS themes come through. Of course since they won't be identical those who don't want to see it will say it isn't there but that is up to subjective opinion.

Some suggest that Commander Adama from the mini does believe Earth exist but doesn't trust President Roslin. His statement may have been something more than a straight forward admission. It is to early to tell.

The love triangle potential is speculation but if it does appear it would be a large TOS subplot.

I was amazed that so many TOS fans were upset initially with many PC aspects of the mini like the female President and female warriors when they were all in TOS. It just seems that so many fans who know the episodes backwards and forwards forget whole characters and themes once a name is changed.

I make no claim to the mini being identical to TOS. It certainly isn't. I just see a lot of familiar stories. I can even remember an evil figure who took human form in TOS in an attempt to destroy the Galactica and the colonist from within. His name was Count Iblis. The enemy within theme is not unique to the mini, or just to BG1980 with the human cylon episode, but was right there in TOS. Whether by coincidence or inspiration many of the best themes of TOS are in Moore's universe. I'm sorry many can't or won't see the homage but I plan to enjoy the show so long as the stories are good.

Any mini-fans out there? How about the original question?

[BST]

Only time will tell if other TOS themes come through. Of course since they won't be identical those who don't want to see it will say it isn't there but that is up to subjective opinion.

Why is it important, or necessary, for "TOS themes ( to ) come through" ? Moore's show is decidedly different from TOS in many ways and, as such, does not need to draw parallels to TOS, in order to attract viewers, or does it?


I was amazed that so many TOS fans were upset initially with many PC aspects of the mini like the female President and female warriors when they were all in TOS. It just seems that so many fans who know the episodes backwards and forwards forget whole characters and themes once a name is changed.

You may still be amazed to know that you are dead wrong on this! TOS fans were not "upset" about female warriors, or a female President. Speaking for myself, I was upset with the blatant cross-casting of a male character from TOS as a female character in the mini, strictly for name recognition. Arguments can be made that the "rogue, swashbuckling, renegade, male, cigar-chomping, womanizing" character portrayed by Dirk Benedict is dated; however, arguments can also be made that the type of character portrayed by Katee Sackhoff is nothing new.

As far as the "female President" issue, was not the "Presidency" of the Quorum rotated amongst all the members of that group? In those types of groups, it is not uncommon for the Presdiency/Chairpersonship to be rotated on a regular basis (monthly/quarterly). Look at the European Union (EU) as an example.

I make no claim to the mini being identical to TOS. It certainly isn't. I just see a lot of familiar stories. I can even remember an evil figure who took human form in TOS in an attempt to destroy the Galactica and the colonist from within. His name was Count Iblis. The enemy within theme is not unique to the mini, or just to BG1980 with the human cylon episode, but was right there in TOS. Whether by coincidence or inspiration many of the best themes of TOS are in Moore's universe. I'm sorry many can't or won't see the homage but I plan to enjoy the show so long as the stories are good.

It's sad to see that someone who claimed to be at the cusp of "re-inventing science fiction" would need to cull so many "familiar" themes, icons, events, characters, places, etc, from the original show. Perhaps the original show was not as bad, as we were led to believe by those who apparently know more than this quite average science fiction fan.

Your mention of Count Iblis (and his assumption of human form) is interesting. Considering that the Beings of Light also assumed human form and were "at war" with Iblis says to me that perhaps the untold story about Battlestar Galactica was that the Colonials and Cylons were fighting a proxy war between the two superpowers. It would have been most interesting to see how that particular story arc would have played out.


Finally, antelope, if the Moore show pleases you and if you enjoy drawing parallels between it and TOS, by all means, more power to you. However, I think that it's a bit presumptious and unfair of you to paint those who disliked the show with such a broad brush of intolerance or close-mindedness. We simply did not enjoy the show -- there are many reasons for this. We have only touched on a few in this thread.

BST

[Eric Paddon]

I am a Battlestar fan and didn't catch or notice the scroll versus word thing. I bet outside of the internet fan world few people would.

Someone who presumes to be as well read on TOS as you keep trying to suggest Ron Moore is, would.


Although some say the interviews of Moore show a man with little knowledge of TOS, I read the same interviews and see a man with a lot of knowledge who is trying not to reveal where he is going.

He said which episodes he had watched in the last 25 years. The sum total was one and a half episodes and that includes a badly cut down version of the pilot film. That's the information one should go on before making assumptions.

I was amazed that so many TOS fans were upset initially with many PC aspects of the mini like the female President and female warriors when they were all in TOS. It just seems that so many fans who know the episodes backwards and forwards forget whole characters and themes once a name is changed..

Antelope, when were any of us ever upset over "female warriors?" Not me. And I don't think it's a case of us forgetting things, I think it's a case of a miniseries defender trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole.

I can even remember an evil figure who took human form in TOS in an attempt to destroy the Galactica and the colonist from within. His name was Count Iblis. The enemy within theme is not unique to the mini, or just to BG1980 with the human cylon episode, but was right there in TOS.

Except that now you're forgetting the deeper religious subtext of Iblis, which is NOT in the miniseries because the miniseries has no use for any of the religious subtext, and the idea of Iblis, the Devil, being responsible for the creation of the Cylon race that started the war. Without that subtext, there is no legit parallel in the miniseries with Iblis.

[julix]

I have to say well said Eric and BST............Antelope, Most of us die-hard Tos fans were not upset at female warriors because as you said there were strong female warriors/characters in TOS. Speaking for me..........what upset me the most is that Ron Moore and the"powers that be" used the BSG name to cash in on the fan base(i.e. ratings) without considering what the majority of that fan base wants. A continuation with as many original actors as possible. I don't see the mini as PC the you did... I see what you are trying to say but I just don't see all the gratuitous sex that way. The original was such a family show. As for Starbuck, and Boomer they were characters I loved and you don't go in and change it to the point they did. It would be like making James T. Kirk a woman or Han Solo a woman etc...........It just isn't the same and it souldn't be messed with as far as I am concerned. I am not a very good writer so this probably isn't comming out good.

[Senmut]

This character has as much in common with Sheba as a cheap Polaroid of a tart does with Boticelli's Birth of Venus.

[Senmut]

I have to say well said Eric and BST............Antelope, Most of us die-hard Tos fans were not upset at female warriors because as you said there were strong female warriors/characters in TOS. Speaking for me..........what upset me the most is that Ron Moore and the"powers that be" used the BSG name to cash in on the fan base(i.e. ratings) without considering what the majority of that fan base wants. A continuation with as many original actors as possible. I don't see the mini as PC the you did... I see what you are trying to say but I just don't see all the gratuitous sex that way. The original was such a family show. As for Starbuck, and Boomer they were characters I loved and you don't go in and change it to the point they did. It would be like making James T. Kirk a woman or Han Solo a woman etc...........It just isn't the same and it souldn't be messed with as far as I am concerned. I am not a very good writer so this probably isn't comming out good.


You said it quite well, Julix. Dead on.

[thomas7g]

I was amazed that so many TOS fans were upset initially with many PC aspects of the mini like the female President and female warriors when they were all in TOS. It just seems that so many fans who know the episodes backwards and forwards forget whole characters and themes once a name is changed.huh?

Way off base on this one antelope. One, this show was in no way I can think of "Politically correct". Or more so than the original. Granted there was less male chauvanism. But then you exchanged that for babykilling, sex scenes, and virtual sex. Two, nobody cares if this show is more or less politically correct. That's not what the arguement is about.

[thomas7g]

Even if the miniseries was not named Galactica... Even if there were no vipers or cylons. ..Even if there were no characters named Apollo or Starbuck. ...

Alot of what I don't like has nothing to do with Galactica. I simply did not like Katee Sackhoff. Forgeting completely that her character has anything to do with Starbuck, I simply did not like her. The performance was abrasive. I would not have liked any character like that character no matter what the show I was watching. Same with Lee Adama. Same with Tigh. And Six.

And I could tell from all that was leaked, from the scripts, from every step along the way that they were making the kinds of characters that have low appeal to me.


Somewhere along the way the creators of the show started to claim how great their show was, and if anyone don't like it there is something wrong with them. That is an absolutely insulting. The problem is NOT with us. THEY gave us something that we didn't like then had the arrogance to call us names cause we didn't like it!


They should have hired a decent director. Not the guys who did Queen of the Damned. They should have given us more reason to like these guys. ... And there are a lot more problems, but well.. I don't want to bash.
:)

[thomas7g]

Finally, antelope, if the Moore show pleases you and if you enjoy drawing parallels between it and TOS, by all means, more power to you. However, I think that it's a bit presumptious and unfair of you to paint those who disliked the show with such a broad brush of intolerance or close-mindedness. We simply did not enjoy the show -- there are many reasons for this. We have only touched on a few in this thread.

BST
I agree with that too. Both in supporting Antelope and that its unfair andincorrect to say there is something with us as to why we didn't like the show. Frankly the problem was in the production.

Or simply the miniseries didn't please alot of people. :)

[julix]

Thanks senmut for your comment. I appreciate it! It was after my night shift that I wrote my other comments and forgot one of my most important points. If the premise was that Ron Moore and Company put in a female Starbuck and Boomer to be PC or "forward thinking, updated" then I as a woman am insulted. TOS was right on in the way most of my ideals as a woman are...i.e. assertive, feminine, strong, and curageous. The women in the mini were my idea of a certain type of man's(all you good guys this excludes you) view on presenting a PC woman.

Take Katee portrayal of Starbuck....that is,in the writing it was only a female version of Starbuck and not in a way I feel is MY ideal strong woman. In fact it reminded me of a Video I saw by Pink called "I am trouble" where she is this brash drinking hard #$@ kicking butt. Not that that isn't cool at times just not MY idea of a strong independant woman. And not someting I could relate to. When Dirk brought Starbuck to life he was lovable, flawed and like so many men I know and sometimes loved. A woman doing those same things didn't fit for me. Again, I am not saying there is anything wrong with a woman acting or being like that it just not what I feel the standard the TOS had.

As for the other women(except for the lady who portrayed the president) it was all pretty much all gratitutious sex and brought to mind shadows of women as sex objects(again there is a time and a place :D )

BTW nothing against any of the actors in the mini..it is a job and they are I am sure doing the best they can



Julix

[PlaidSquadron]

How about the original question?

OK. I am not nearly as knowlegeable on either series as most of the other posters. But I will take a cut at your original post., and give yoiu my impressions

But first, let me give you a story from my personal background. When I was in high school, ny English teacher said "All Western literaute can be traced tio the Passion of Christ in the Bible. They all contain a Christ-figure, who gives up something important for the greater good. They contain a Judas figure who causes harm to the Christ-figure, even if unintended. And other figures, Peter, Mary, Pilate, etc are all represented somewhere. " We spen the better part of the year finding these characters in everything: Steven Crane's short story "The Open Boat. Novels like Hawthorne's "Scarlett Letter and William Gerald Golding's "Lord of the Flies" were given similar treatment by the instructor. Like any good high-schooler, us students took it much further. We found minor passion players (no pun intended ;) ) like Barabbas in books like "The Hitch Hikers Guide" and Caiphus in comic books like "Spider-Man"

How this story applies here, is to say "Yes. You have hit on a few characteristics of both characters that are similar." But to say it was intentional is a bit of a stretch.

I am not cannonizing the TOS characters, nor demonizing the mini characters. When reduced to a very low level, almost any two characters can be linked, but that does not mean one is based on the other.

Personally, I am abivelent towards the mini. It wasn't great and it wasn't horrible. But I do believe that RDM took the names of a few charaters, added a few visual traits (ala the cigar) and tried to create new characters.

[justjackrandom]

I agree that Antelope may be trying too hard to draw parallels, but that does not mean that he is necessarily incorrect. Although I do not think that G03’s Starbuck was drawn from Sheba (I follow your reasoning, Antelope, but I think it’s a stretch…), there may in fact be more parallels than some would like to admit.

As one of the few (at least that I have found) who is legitimately a fan of both, I can see the appeal of trying to make deeper comparisons that the obvious. I would gently suggest, however, that this might not be the best forum for that kind of exercise. Antelope, there is an e-group that might be better suited. E-mail me if you are interested.

As for not liking the new mini on its own merits, I can see it as a viable opinion, although I have not met many who were fans of the original and liked it, or who were not fans of the original and didn’t like it. Given the contentious nature of the old vs. new debate over the last several years, it is a natural conclusion that those who have strong opinions against the new series are strong fans of the original, and that that is the reason they dislike the new one. It is difficult to see that they might not like the mini on its own merits, even if they are not fans of the original. And unfair assumption, perhaps, but one supported by years of heated debate.

Finally, I thought I would weigh in on Sackhoff as Starbuck: Would I have preferred a man in the role? Probably… the “Goose” and “Maverick” dynamic is a great one. But having seen her in the role, I was actually impressed. Her acting was a bit uneven at times, but she gives nuances to her delivery of certain scenes that border on greatness. Overall, I really liked the character, and found her to be true (always important in an actor’s performance). I know several women, and am good friends with two, who share traits with Sackhoff’s portrayal (one is so much like her it was a twilight zone moment when watching the mini).

My 2p

JJR

[julix]

Justjack....
I am probably stating the obvious to you here but just because people are fans of the original doesn't mean they are not open-minded. It also doesn't mean we disliked the mini BECAUSE we are TOS fans. Heated debates may have proven this to you but not to me....I didn't like the mini for several resons some of which I have already stated. I do think as I have said Ron Moore and Company cashed in on the name and fan base. I believe ratings were high for the mini because a good number of TOS fans tuned in to see what was up(that is what I did-I wanted to see for myself).

Again, when you take a well loved(As I believe CFF and all the websites dedicated to TOS prove)you just don't go in and Jack(pardon the pun)it all up and switch the characters around. Ron Moore could have done his show and call it something else but he didn't and you know why.

[Antelope]

Thanks for all the responses. I enjoy reading all views. Remember my original question was directed mainly to mini-fans (in short supply this week) but most of my responses have been replies to the kind TOS only fans that joined the conversation. Things have been slow lately on the actual Battlestar discussion so at least this opened a little extra discussion. Here's my thoughts on a few things said since my last post:

On is it important to see the TOS theme in the mini?: At least for me I loved TOS and hope the TOS themes are found in Moore's universe. I currently do see some although not all TOS themes in Moore's universe. I can also enjoy the Moore universe in its own right if its good. I liked the mini and hope for the new series.

I used the term "many" not all TOS only fans when I referenced the female President and warrior issues. I am specifically not painting with a broad brush. However I stand by the fact that "MANY" TOS only fans posted they disliked the mini for concepts that were in TOS, in particular those two items.

Religion: There is more reference to religion in the mini than there was in Saga of A Star World. The driving force to the human-cylons seems to be a deep religious belief. Speaking to God and the concept of the soul and who deserves it are in the mini. It may well turn out that in Moore's universe we may again be seeing a war between good and evil with humans and cylons as proxies. Moore is already on record as saying he may have an episode with the ship of light concept. In this area again Moore's universe may be following TOS themes.

Gratuitous Sex: I like most TOS only fans did not like the gratuitous sex in the mini, particularly two of the Cylon 6 - Baltar scenes. I do wonder however if TOS was made today instead of in 1978-1979 if we would have FU-K instead of Frack and would have seen gratuitous sex scenes between Starbuck, Casiopeia, and Athena to name a few. I don't think the gratuitous sex adds to the show but is an unfortunate sign of our times.

Timeless characters: I liked that post. I have read good post before that show that TOS was to some extent a scifi adaptation of the conflict between Egyptian and Roman civilization. I think many stories, Battlestar or otherwise may contain archtypes we can see from story to story. Judas to Baltar being a good point.

I have issues with Kara Thrace. I hope they tone her down. Just when I was finally warming up to her she had that last scene with Colonel Tigh, a definite mistake. I also wasn't thrilled with Sheba as originally in Living Legend but she was toned down and became a good character. I hope for something similar.

Blended charcter: Kara may be a blend of Starbuck and Sheba. Moore does blended characters from inspiration. If you follow the scene similarities between "In Harm's Way" and the mini you may have noticed that many of the lifted scenes involving Kara Thrace were scenes where she alternately played the male role of LT McConnel and also the female role of Mrs. McConnel. Maybe Moore is trying to shoe horn Starbuck and Sheba into one character at least to start. I think it would be a bit better to the audience if they toned down the poor Starbuck apeage and turned up the later demure Sheba.

Thanks to everyone. No slight meant if any took it that way.

P.S.: Most mini fans are TOS fans! That is why I like the term TOS only fans as opposed to mini-haters and the term TOS/mini fans. It reminds us all that we are still on the same team with different preferences and persceptives. Beauty is still in the eye of the beholder.

[justjackrandom]

I am probably stating the obvious to you here but just because people are fans of the original doesn't mean they are not open-minded. It also doesn't mean we disliked the mini BECAUSE we are TOS fans.

Not disagreeing with you Julix (love that callsign BTW). As I said, it is an unfair assumption. Yet it is a strong perception that exists, and one that will be difficult to shake.

Again, when you take a well loved(As I believe CFF and all the websites dedicated to TOS prove)you just don't go in and Jack(pardon the pun)it all up and switch the characters around. Ron Moore could have done his show and call it something else but he didn't and you know why.

And one reason the perception exists is comments like this. I am sure you have other reasons for not liking the mini, and would not have liked it even if it was named something else, with different character names, different designs, etc. Yet this statement makes it seem that you don’t like it just because it is a remake that they “reimagined”, regardless of its merits (or lack thereof) as a production.

Again, my tuppence

JJR

[Eric Paddon]

"Religion: There is more reference to religion in the mini than there was in Saga of A Star World"

Antelope, here you are twisting the comparison to shoehorn your argument. Religion, as it is depicted in the *entire* original series is what you should be using to form your comparison (and considering how earlier you have been trying to insist the miniseries is borrowing characters and elements from post-Saga episodes, it's not being consistent for you to suddenly reverse course and use only Saga to form your religion comparison). When that happens, what we are left with is (1) TOS presents religion in a positive light and (2) the miniseries depicts it in a negative light.

"The driving force to the human-cylons seems to be a deep religious belief."

Yeah, the religious beliefs of the *Cylons* which has nothing to do with the original and is nothing more than Ron Moore reflecting the attitude of modern Hollywood that religious faith is solely for the fanatical extremists. And the Stardoe "prayer" sequence is not a valid counterargument because my recollection is (1) Moore added that scene afterwards when he began to get criticized for his anti-religion tone and (2) that scene doesn't ultimately show religion positively since it's done by the most dislikable character in the Fleet and demonstrates that being sincere in one's faith and letting it define one's life like Adama in TOS did with his, is lacking in Stardoe.

Adama's vision for Earth is tied to genuine faith. Fake Adama's lie is tied to the idea that religious beliefs that society needs to keep it going are ultimately the lies of devious people, which is the mindset of an anti-religious perspective that Moore clearly possesses. Having Adama "lying" was not necessary for any reason but to make an anti-religious point.

[julix]

Justjack....
It is true I didn't like the fact that they "reimagined" BSG and I will stand by that forever.....I watched the mini with an open mind and didn't like it. I will explain some reasons in a minute. I simply stated, I feel and believe a lot of people(hope I am not overstating this)who are TOS fans were unhappy and didn't like the mini because it messed with our well loved characters. TOS wasn't perfect but it was loved. And you are going to get obvious comparisons when you "reimagine" something. Again, I feel I am repeating myself which is why I left it they way I did in my last post...But Imagine if after Star Wars(IV) someone other then Lucas came in reimagined it and made lets say Chewie a woman...I know this is silly and not a real comparison but you get my point.

And, you are wrong I may well have liked the mini called something else. One, I love scifi and there are very few shows(also the ratings draw for the mini)Two, I did think there were individual acting performances that were good in spots(ones that really showed the actors talent)So you shouldn't judge me on that point it is indeed unfair.

I didn't like the mini because .....I didn't like, nor buy the relationships in it(this may evolve) but in the mini that was my main problem. When I enjoy a movie or show it is usually about the character development and relationships between them. The relationship between Adama and Lee Adama just didn't fit for me. It wasn't because it was unlike the original it just wasn't well written/developed. I again mentioned gratitous sex as a big problem as well as a real sense of superficiality. This may be a sign of our times as antelope says but I don't think it has to be!

What does tuppence mean?

[PlaidSquadron]

What does tuppence mean?

If I may....

"tuppence" is (I think) Victorian English slang (though it might still be in use) for Two pence. Essentially two cents

[julix]

Oh yeah thanks plaid................ :D