My Problem With "Tigh"?

[Count Iblis]

Not trying to poke holes in all of the new mini characters but after reviewing this new "Tigh" character, I have to say I saw some real problems with the role.

You know...I read all the time from many Sci-Fi fans that they want "More Realistic" characters and more "Real Life" scenarios. Hey, an alcohol addiction is OK, and on the surface looks "Realistic"/"Real Life" doesn't it? Well, Let's break this idea down.

As a former "Navy" man (Experience) I can honestly say that on occasion, we do see substance abuse, or it's discovered on board that someone is a user. However, it's delt with imediately because people's lives are at stake. This character is the "Executive Officer" for crying outloud. He's supposed to not only be setting the "Highest" standards and example for the crew, he's also supposed to be able to perform all of his duties at "Peak Performance" levels at all times.

Now...I don't want or expect BSG to become a "Kiddie" show, but I have to draw a line somewhere. I don't want young people watching this to think that problems like alcohol or drug addiction are viewed as "Exceptable/Understandable/Ignored/ in the Military or any other "Career" they may choose to enter. If we indeed want more "Realism" in our Sci-Fi this character needs to be delt with in one of two ways. Either he deals with and Overcomes his addiction (Which could make for some interesting scenarios) or perhaps a strorline is written where his lack of dealing with it puts the "Galactica" in peril and more jeopardy, while possible costing the lives of some on board as well as his own. That would be "Realistic".

:salute:

[Boomer65]

As a former "Navy" man (Experience) I can honestly say that on occasion, we do see substance abuse, or it's discovered on board that someone is a user. However, it's delt with imediately because people's lives are at stake. This character is the "Executive Officer" for crying outloud. He's supposed to not only be setting the "Highest" standards and example for the crew, he's also supposed to be able to perform all of his duties at "Peak Performance" levels at all times.
I think you have to remember something here – the upper echelon is a very tightly nit group. It’s similar to doctors, university instructors, et al not informing on each other. Look at the U.S. president carrying on with his intern for crying out loud – do you think that no one knew about that!?!? Realistically, the higher up you go the more you can get away with (I’m a former Navy man myself).

Adama knew of Tigh’s problem. But they are at the end of their careers on a soon to be decommissioned ship. What’s the point of destroying another man’s career? But as soon as it becomes an issue with his performance you can bet that Adama will come down…hard.

Either he deals with and Overcomes his addiction (Which could make for some interesting scenarios) or perhaps a strorline is written where his lack of dealing with it puts the "Galactica" in peril and more jeopardy, while possible costing the lives of some on board as well as his own. That would be "Realistic".
Why else do you think RDM put this weakness into the character?

[CrysWimmer]

I think you have to remember something here – the upper echelon is a very tightly nit group. It’s similar to doctors, university instructors, et al not informing on each other. Look at the U.S. president carrying on with his intern for crying out loud – do you think that no one knew about that!?!? Realistically, the higher up you go the more you can get away with (I’m a former Navy man myself).

Adama knew of Tigh’s problem. But they are at the end of their careers on a soon to be decommissioned ship. What’s the point of destroying another man’s career? But as soon as it becomes an issue with his performance you can bet that Adama will come down…hard.


Why else do you think RDM put this weakness into the character?

I think we also need to remember that Adama isn't above using his rank to keep things... in perspective. Remember how he talked Tigh out of pressing charges against Kara? I think he's a man who looks at the intent of the regs, rather than the letter, and that will be important.

Tigh honestly didn't do anything wrong IN THE MINI... he was drunk- off duty - and Adama called him on it. I can see that slipping past, especially as they're in the process of decommissioning. He had a hangover at the beginning - Gaeta rolled his eyes - but again, hangovers aren't against regs so long as you can perform your duties (and tigh wasn't on duty - that was right before the card game). I won't get into Tigh playing cards with the pilots, because they are ALL officers - junior or senior is irrelevant - officers are officers, and they are allowed to interact OFF DUTY. They usually don't, so they can't be questioned, but in the limited facilities of a battlestar it's reasonable.

Tigh was sober the entire length of the Mini - right up until the end. And frankly, with their world destroyed and after the slamming Kara had just given him... I'd have probably taken a drink myself!

Alcoholism isn't against military regs unless it affects duty performance or is done while driving (or you hurt someone while intoxicated). Sailors have been drinking since the beginning of time... Pilots, too. Yes, it's a character flaw, but I don't think it's too far fetched. It's also a self-solving problem... not much alcohol will be available after the war starts (at least I don't think so).

[Antelope]

COL Tigh in the mini is based on Commander Eddington in the movie "In Harm's Way". Some deleted scenes even further this understanding of Tigh. Both Tigh and Commander Eddington were probably good officers until they began to have issues with their philandering wives. This point is clear in "In Harm's Way" but only alluded to in the burning picture scene in the mini. Adama and Tigh appear to be friends (as were Tory and Eddington in "In Harm's Way). As such Adama is covering for a friend he thinks is going through some temporary problems late in his career.

I would like to see COL Tigh in Moore's universe loose his alcoholism in the series or die in a blaze of glory to avoid his demons like Eddington in "In Harm's Way". I think an alcoholic Tigh can only go on for a limited time in the series. He will either be rehabilitated or killed before season 1 ends (my prediction).

[Gemini1999]

I think we also need to remember that Adama isn't above using his rank to keep things... in perspective. Remember how he talked Tigh out of pressing charges against Kara? I think he's a man who looks at the intent of the regs, rather than the letter, and that will be important.

Tigh honestly didn't do anything wrong IN THE MINI... he was drunk- off duty - and Adama called him on it. I can see that slipping past, especially as they're in the process of decommissioning. He had a hangover at the beginning - Gaeta rolled his eyes - but again, hangovers aren't against regs so long as you can perform your duties (and tigh wasn't on duty - that was right before the card game). I won't get into Tigh playing cards with the pilots, because they are ALL officers - junior or senior is irrelevant - officers are officers, and they are allowed to interact OFF DUTY. They usually don't, so they can't be questioned, but in the limited facilities of a battlestar it's reasonable.

Tigh was sober the entire length of the Mini - right up until the end. And frankly, with their world destroyed and after the slamming Kara had just given him... I'd have probably taken a drink myself!

Alcoholism isn't against military regs unless it affects duty performance or is done while driving (or you hurt someone while intoxicated). Sailors have been drinking since the beginning of time... Pilots, too. Yes, it's a character flaw, but I don't think it's too far fetched. It's also a self-solving problem... not much alcohol will be available after the war starts (at least I don't think so).

Cryswimmer -

There are some things you should know about the military life (if you don't already). Even though someone may be "off duty", that really means you are just not at your assigned job for the shift you are assigned. Anything you do when you are off duty, still reflects on you, the uniform you wear and the branch of the military you serve. If you get drunk and/or get into a fight, even though it is when off duty, it can be called to bear against your career and your rank. It isn't like civilian life where if you got drunk and hit a co-worker after work - you are in the military 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. All of your conduct reflects on you and is considered accountable. There are regulations against hitting another officer - it doesn't specify as to where or when, it is just that simple. There is no "between" the lines with regulations - you are either following them or not. If you're not, then that person must be willing to accept the consequences of those actions and be held accountable to to them. The fact that Kara and Tigh are officers means that their conduct is especially important. Officers are supposed to set an example for the ranks below them, not carry on like a street gang. If they can't do that, then they aren't fit to wear the uniform.

It's been a while since I was in the military and I was only in for 5 years, but I know that the regulations regarding conduct haven't changed, even though society's standards and morals have...

Best,
Bryan
________
Boiling food (http://www.cooking-chef.com/boiling/)

[shiningstar]

Not trying to poke holes in all of the new mini characters but after reviewing this new "Tigh" character, I have to say I saw some real problems with the role.

You know...I read all the time from many Sci-Fi fans that they want "More Realistic" characters and more "Real Life" scenarios. Hey, an alcohol addiction is OK, and on the surface looks "Realistic"/"Real Life" doesn't it? Well, Let's break this idea down.

As a former "Navy" man (Experience) I can honestly say that on occasion, we do see substance abuse, or it's discovered on board that someone is a user. However, it's delt with imediately because people's lives are at stake. This character is the "Executive Officer" for crying outloud. He's supposed to not only be setting the "Highest" standards and example for the crew, he's also supposed to be able to perform all of his duties at "Peak Performance" levels at all times.

Now...I don't want or expect BSG to become a "Kiddie" show, but I have to draw a line somewhere. I don't want young people watching this to think that problems like alcohol or drug addiction are viewed as "Exceptable/Understandable/Ignored/ in the Military or any other "Career" they may choose to enter. If we indeed want more "Realism" in our Sci-Fi this character needs to be delt with in one of two ways. Either he deals with and Overcomes his addiction (Which could make for some interesting scenarios) or perhaps a strorline is written where his lack of dealing with it puts the "Galactica" in peril and more jeopardy, while possible costing the lives of some on board as well as his own. That would be "Realistic".

:salute:

Count Iblis as a veteran of the military I see your point. Well written.

[shiningstar]

Cryswimmer -

There are some things you should know about the military life (if you don't already). Even though someone may be "off duty", that really means you are just not at your assigned job for the shift you are assigned. Anything you do when you are off duty, still reflects on you, the uniform you wear and the branch of the military you serve. If you get drunk and/or get into a fight, even though it is when off duty, it can be called to bear against your career and your rank. It isn't like civilian life where if you got drunk and hit a co-worker after work - you are in the military 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. All of your conduct reflects on you and is considered accountable. There are regulations against hitting another officer - it doesn't specify as to where or when, it is just that simple. There is no "between" the lines with regulations - you are either following them or not. If you're not, then that person must be willing to accept the consequences of those actions and be held accountable to to them. The fact that Kara and Tigh are officers means that their conduct is especially important. Officers are supposed to set an example for the ranks below them, not carry on like a street gang. If they can't do that, then they aren't fit to wear the uniform.

It's been a while since I was in the military and I was only in for 5 years, but I know that the regulations regarding conduct haven't changed, even though society's standards and morals have...

Best,
Bryan

Well written Bryan. After all I know people who were dishonorably discharged
because they couldn't 'beat' the alcoholism. According to one of my C.O.'s
"If you're going to fly with owls at night ..........you best be able to fly WITH
the eagles in the morning."

He did not put up with alcholism and took a dim view to substance abuse
in general. At one point we were subject to 'surprise' drug tests. That
means there was no warning whatsoever of 'when' those tests would
take place.

[CrysWimmer]

Cryswimmer -

There are some things you should know about the military life (if you don't already). Even though someone may be "off duty", that really means you are just not at your assigned job for the shift you are assigned. Anything you do when you are off duty, still reflects on you, the uniform you wear and the branch of the military you serve. If you get drunk and/or get into a fight, even though it is when off duty, it can be called to bear against your career and your rank. It isn't like civilian life where if you got drunk and hit a co-worker after work - you are in the military 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. All of your conduct reflects on you and is considered accountable. There are regulations against hitting another officer - it doesn't specify as to where or when, it is just that simple. There is no "between" the lines with regulations - you are either following them or not. If you're not, then that person must be willing to accept the consequences of those actions and be held accountable to to them. The fact that Kara and Tigh are officers means that their conduct is especially important. Officers are supposed to set an example for the ranks below them, not carry on like a street gang. If they can't do that, then they aren't fit to wear the uniform.

It's been a while since I was in the military and I was only in for 5 years, but I know that the regulations regarding conduct haven't changed, even though society's standards and morals have...

Best,
Bryan

Bryan - I agree with you that you are on duty 24/7 - as for understanding the military, my father and brother are both retired navy, I served 6 years in the Air Force, and I've been married to an NCO for 16 years... so... I know very well that you are "never" off duty. In addition, my husband is hospital personnel, so he's expected to be ready to go to the OR at all times.

HOWEVER - you know very well that officers don't always set the example - they are only as good as the men who carry the commissions. Some are incredible, and some are scum. Sad, but true - just like in any other job. And unless you do something to get CAUGHT drinking - get into a fight, show up to work drunk, come through the gate and get caught - you get the picture, unless you're CAUGHT they don't say anything. Don't ask, don't tell. I know dozens of men - officers and enlisted alike - that are alcoholics. Few of them are ever "drunk", if you know what I mean. That is not against regulation. It's not.

You're right - either Tigh or Kara would be up on charges for "conduct unbecoming an officer" in the real world... but this is fiction, so we really don't know what the parameters are. I agree 100% that their conduct should be above reproach at all times... but while we're at it, Tyrol should be in the brig for mouthing off to the Commander - you think? Disrespect to an officer, and he's just an enlisted man? Sharon and Tyrol kissing in a corridor? Definitely brig material - fraternization, big-time. Kara also essentially deified orders to bring in Lee's ship - she had as much a chance of crashing as succeeding, but no one mentioned that because it worked. It could have got them both killed, but she's lucky. And we can also get into all those civilians running about CIC... not likely. So, let's remember this is fiction while we analyze it.

For the record, I never drank when I was enlisted... mostly because I was underage. Also my nephew just after boot camp was involved in an unfortunate accident involving liquor, group quarters, and a gun. I really miss him. Alcohol and ANYONE doesn't mix. That's IMO, anyway. Waste of money and time.

Be that as it may military regulation continues to be interpreted by squadron and flight commanders, and enforced sporatically. I read the blotter every week - article 15s for everything from showing up to work in a wrinkled uniform to DUI - oh yeah, those are comparable <g>. Enforcement of the rules is only as good as the officers doing it, and you know as well as I do that the rules don't apply equally to everyone. they should... but they don't. If you are drunk off duty - and you don't do anything to get into trouble - you aren't going to be punished. That's just fact. Sadly, drinking is a military tradition. What do you think O-clubs and Enlisted clubs are for?

[shiningstar]

Bryan - I agree with you that you are on duty 24/7 - as for understanding the military, my father and brother are both retired navy, I served 6 years in the Air Force, and I've been married to an NCO for 16 years... so... I know very well that you are "never" off duty. In addition, my husband is hospital personnel, so he's expected to be ready to go to the OR at all times.

HOWEVER - you know very well that officers don't always set the example - they are only as good as the men who carry the commissions. Some are incredible, and some are scum. Sad, but true - just like in any other job. And unless you do something to get CAUGHT drinking - get into a fight, show up to work drunk, come through the gate and get caught - you get the picture, unless you're CAUGHT they don't say anything. Don't ask, don't tell. I know dozens of men - officers and enlisted alike - that are alcoholics. Few of them are ever "drunk", if you know what I mean. That is not against regulation. It's not.

You're right - either Tigh or Kara would be up on charges for "conduct unbecoming an officer" in the real world... but this is fiction, so we really don't know what the parameters are. I agree 100% that their conduct should be above reproach at all times... but while we're at it, Tyrol should be in the brig for mouthing off to the Commander - you think? Disrespect to an officer, and he's just an enlisted man? Sharon and Tyrol kissing in a corridor? Definitely brig material - fraternization, big-time. Kara also essentially deified orders to bring in Lee's ship - she had as much a chance of crashing as succeeding, but no one mentioned that because it worked. It could have got them both killed, but she's lucky. And we can also get into all those civilians running about CIC... not likely. So, let's remember this is fiction while we analyze it.

For the record, I never drank when I was enlisted... mostly because I was underage. Also my nephew just after boot camp was involved in an unfortunate accident involving liquor, group quarters, and a gun. I really miss him. Alcohol and ANYONE doesn't mix. That's IMO, anyway. Waste of money and time.

Be that as it may military regulation continues to be interpreted by squadron and flight commanders, and enforced sporatically. I read the blotter every week - article 15s for everything from showing up to work in a wrinkled uniform to DUI - oh yeah, those are comparable <g>. Enforcement of the rules is only as good as the officers doing it, and you know as well as I do that the rules don't apply equally to everyone. they should... but they don't. If you are drunk off duty - and you don't do anything to get into trouble - you aren't going to be punished. That's just fact. Sadly, drinking is a military tradition. What do you think O-clubs and Enlisted clubs are for?


Although you and I don't always see eye to eye on things I did want to
applaud you on your service in the military :thumbsup:

[Rowan]

I'm curious why do we think Tigh is an alcoholic? We see him drinking and Kara calls him a drunk but is that what we are going on? She could have called him that out of spite , or just to piss him off. Is it not possible he's just drinking because of the crap he's going through with his wife, but that it's a temporary thing? "I feel sorry for myself" thing and not an actual problem with self control and drinking? Just wondering:)

[CrysWimmer]

Although you and I don't always see eye to eye on things I did want to
applaud you on your service in the military :thumbsup:

We don't have to agree... that's part of what the military fights for... freedom to have an opinion <g> and voice it... politely. :salute:

Truthfully, I absolutely agree with what you said... you told us how it should be, and how it often is. Unfortunately I've often seen what should be... twisted. It's easy to become jaded, and I apologize if that came across as flip.

As for time in the military, it wasn't a trial. I was a medical technician, met and married my husband, and managed to save up enough money for college. I still believe the military is a wonderful thing, and I will encourage my son to enlist when he graduates - it's important to learn to follow orders, develop discipline, and be responsible for yourself. The military will teach you that... whether you like it or not. :blush:

[CrysWimmer]

I'm curious why do we think Tigh is an alcoholic? We see him drinking and Kara calls him a drunk but is that what we are going on? She could have called him that out of spite , or just to piss him off. Is it not possible he's just drinking because of the crap he's going through with his wife, but that it's a temporary thing? "I feel sorry for myself" thing and not an actual problem with self control and drinking? Just wondering:)

First, it was stated in the script. Also, we see him hung over in his first scene (leaning against the bulkhead, gaeta rolls his eyes at him), drunk in the card game (I didn't turn over the table... unless I did), and at the end he throws away a bottle of liquor (full) only to sit and have it half empty the next time he's shown. The clues are definitely there.

[Rowan]

Ok but forget the script for a second maybe they changed their mind about him being an alcoholic and just decided maybe it's a temporary situation. After all Starbuck is nice to Tigh in the script even goes to tell him she thought he made the right decision about the 40 second thing and that she thought Tyrol was full of shit. We also see Kara drinking at the card table possibly she was drunk as well and that would explain her lack of self control. I know we see these scenes and he's definitely drinking but that doesn't make him an alcoholic. Everyone I know has had too much to drink at some point in ther lives and or been hung over at work. If those are the criteria then just about everyone I've ever met is one. And I realise there are scenes that suggest he might be an alcoholic I'm just saying, there is room to reserve judgement.

Out of curiosity and to refresh my memory I looked up the info on alcoholism and thought I 'd post it for the interested

There are 4 criteria for alcoholism"

Craving: A strong need, or compulsion, to drink

Impaired control: The inability to limit one’s drinking on any given occasion

Physical dependence: Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness. And anxiety, when alcohol use is stopped after a period of heavy drinking

Tolerance: The need for increasing amounts of alcohol in order to feel its effects.



“Alcoholism has little to do with what kind of alcohol one drinks, how long one has been drinking, or even exactly how much alcohol one consumes, But it has a great deal to do with a person’s uncontrollable need for alcohol.”

“Even if you are not an alcoholic, abusing alcohol can have negative results’ such as failure to meet major work, school, or family responsibilities.”
I'm just not convinced yet that Tigh's behaviour fulfills these criteria :wtf: :)

[shiningstar]

I'm curious why do we think Tigh is an alcoholic? We see him drinking and Kara calls him a drunk but is that what we are going on? She could have called him that out of spite , or just to piss him off. Is it not possible he's just drinking because of the crap he's going through with his wife, but that it's a temporary thing? "I feel sorry for myself" thing and not an actual problem with self control and drinking? Just wondering:)

It was written into the script. According to the script I read .........he was
an alcoholic .........he thinks his wife is cheating on him ...........and the people
he serves under don't really like him. As for the criteria ...........the clues may
have been there .............but it was more suggested then stated in the mini.

So you never know how that may change in the mini series.

[Boomer65]

Ok but forget the script for a second maybe they changed their mind about him being an alcoholic and just decided maybe it's a temporary situation.
There was one scene where Adama makes the remark, “Starting kind of early aren’t you…? That, along with all the other indicators, led me to believe that he is more than just a social drinker.

[BarrymoreYorke]

I just prefer to wait and see what kind of story arc is in place for Tigh. I really wouldn't be surprised to see this alcoholism thing dealt with by the end of season one.

[CrysWimmer]

I just prefer to wait and see what kind of story arc is in place for Tigh. I really wouldn't be surprised to see this alcoholism thing dealt with by the end of season one.
I agree with this - and also, another more difficult issue than the alcoholism (or whatever) will be gaining the respect of those he commands. Tyrol can't stand him, and I'm sure many of the deck hands feel the same way (no, I don't think he could have done any better, but grief isn't rational). Then there's the open lack of respect he got from Gaeta - who seems to be a pretty straight forward officer. I think the story won't be about his drinking, but recovering from his reputation.

[shiningstar]

There was one scene where Adama makes the remark, “Starting kind of early aren’t you…? That, along with all the other indicators, led me to believe that he is more than just a social drinker.

Thanks for pointing that line out for me Boomer ...........I read that line
in the script; and wouldn't you know it just blew straight OVER my head :blush:

[unowhoandwhy]

Very good points, Crys, there was a lot of "behind-the-scenes" alcoholism when I was in the Army and as long as it didn't affect performance on duty it was kept quiet.

... ... It's also a self-solving problem... not much alcohol will be available after the war starts (at least I don't think so).

That's the only thing I can't agree with. As long as there are humans and things that ferment there will always be alcohol, in whatever form. ;)

[Antelope]

When I was in the Gulf War it was good to see a few soldiers with alcohol problems in garrison turn themselves around once alcohol was unavailable. It was also interesting to learn about a couple alcoholics who nearly killed themselves in their attempts to get alcohol! Some alcoholics will drink just about anything!

[unowhoandwhy]

Some alcoholics will drink just about anything!


When I was stationed in Panama I checked the gate officers at one of the gates one night (I was the mobile unit) and they had a two quart canteen with them. Kept trying to get me to "drink some water" but fortunately I knew those two quite well and declined.Turned out that it was Everclear mixed with Purplesaurus Rex Kool-Aid. GAG on both counts, thank you very much.

I know that gate duty on midnights is godawful boring, especially after curfew, but that was really sad. One of the two ended up getting a dishonorable discharge (for many reasons, the primary reason being that he was an unapologetic racist and refused to apologize for some extremely ignorant remarks he made on an open radio frequency).

No idea what happened to the other, but you're right, alcoholics will drink what they can and when they can. Don't get me wrong, I was known to raise a glass or two, still am, but there is no NEED involved in that. If it is a social occasion and some fine liquor is being served then send one my way, but Tigh has some issues and it will be interesting to see how they resolve them. (See how I finally made it back on topic? I don't manage to do that very often!)

[Boomer65]

Turned out that it was Everclear mixed with Purplesaurus Rex Kool-Aid. GAG on both counts, thank you very much.
Some guy on my ship (US Navy) told me he fermented Kool-Aid while we were out on a cruise. He "said" it was an accident. I don't know if anyone had the guts to try it though.

[Antelope]

A medic from the medical company in the forward support battalion my platoon was colacted with before the ground war (Persian Gulf War) ODed on cough medicine he had access to. He had to be medevaced to a field hospital. Never saw him again although I heard he did survive. I was told by some members of his unit that he was an alcoholic back in Germany before they deployed.

I wonder if just like in TOS the ambrosia taps will still be flowing regardless of the situation. Maybe they can have an episode where Tigh is going through the shakes and sneaks into the engine room to get high off solium vapors!

How about a drunk Tigh stumbling upon an obviously cylon Boomer up to no good. Boomer kicks him around and the next day when Tigh wakes he thinks the whole episode was a drunken fantasy.

How about a drunk Tigh stumbling down to Kara Thrace's quarters. She pretends to seduce him and feeds him more booze. Once he is incoherrant she strips him naked, glues a fake 3 foot long tail on his ass and puts a pair of mittens on his hands and then drags his naked body into the hall. She then calls Galactica security and says she can't believe it but thinks she saw a six foot tall rat scurrying in the halls near her quarters. I would love to see Commander Adama's face when he went to the brig to get him.

[unowhoandwhy]

How about a drunk Tigh stumbling down to Kara Thrace's quarters. She pretends to seduce him and feeds him more booze. Once he is incoherrant she strips him naked, glues a fake 3 foot long tail on his ass and puts a pair of mittens on his hands and then drags his naked body into the hall. She then calls Galactica security and says she can't believe it but thinks she saw a six foot tall rat scurrying in the halls near her quarters. I would love to see Commander Adama's face when he went to the brig to get him.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You are a sick, sick person antelope526, which makes you A-OK in my book!
;)

[Aeneas]

Moore or no, this guy is NOT Col. Tigh! TERRY CARTER IS THE ONE AND ONLY TIGH!!

[unowhoandwhy]

Moore or no, this guy is NOT Col. Tigh! TERRY CARTER IS THE ONE AND ONLY TIGH!!

It's a free country and we are all, thank the Lords of Kobol, entitled to our own opinions.

[shiningstar]

It's a free country and we are all, thank the Lords of Kobol, entitled to our own opinions.

That is so true :thumbsup:

[Antelope]

Moore or no, this guy is NOT Col. Tigh! TERRY CARTER IS THE ONE AND ONLY TIGH!!

Just pretend they are different people at different points in time who are in no way related.

I found over 150 Carters listed in the Sacramento phone book. 6 of them with the first name Terry or with only a T listed. I don't think any of them played Colonel Tigh on TOS! ;) I think we can assume that there are probably a few Colonel Tigh's in the Colonial fleet.

Of course maybe if Terry Carter woke up one day and looked in the mirror and saw mini-Tigh looking back at him it might explain the alcohol problem! :D

[Rowan]

D oesn't it scare you guys to have fellow soldiers who are alcoholics trained to kill and armed working side by side with you? do you feel you can count on them? :wtf:

[shiningstar]

D oesn't it scare you guys to have fellow soldiers who are alcoholics trained to kill and armed working side by side with you? do you feel you can count on them? :wtf:

When I was in the military there were Alcoholics working side by side with me.
If I ever thought my CO didn't see the problem I found out how Wrong I
was ...............when these men and women were drummed out of the Service
because they either would not or could not get theirselves help, and
recklessly endangered innocent lives {not too mention the men and women
who these people served with}. :eek:

[Antelope]

When I was in the military there were Alcoholics working side by side with me.
If I ever thought my CO didn't see the problem I found out how Wrong I
was ...............when these men and women were drummed out of the Service
because they either would not or could not get theirselves help, and
recklessly endangered innocent lives {not too mention the men and women
who these people served with}. :eek:

That's pretty similar to my experience. When I was a platoon leader I had two individuals who came to work in garrison intoxicated. Both were forcibly enrolled in the Army's alcohol abuse program. Neither had a repeat issue and were still in the Army after I left the unit. When we were in the field it was never an issue because no one was allowed or had access to liquor in the units I was in.

Drugs were even more stringent. During peacetime when we caught someone on the drug test in the units I was in on active duty and when I was a Company Commander in the Army Reserve we prosecuted them under UCMJ (uniform code of military justice) and discharged them from the Army. In an Engineer unit I was once part of they had a couple smart alleck soldiers that started doing drugs prior to deployment to Operation Desert Shield. They figured they would not get deployed and put out of the military. Well they didn't get deployed but they did get sentenced to prison at the army correctional facility in Manheim, Germany. I think they got more than they expected.

I personally never saw a senior officer or NCO that had a drinking problem that was apparant in the field or during duty hours. I was aware of many people especially old school NCOs who would get pretty drunk on there time off. One time the CSM of the 2d ACR got so drunk after work at the Cavalry Club on Merrill Bks. he stumbled into a dumpster outside and fell asleep. Luckily he was found by the Staff Duty Officer who had some NCO friends help him home.

Another good story in the above vain:

There was a female Captain in the 1st AD prior to deployment to Desert Shield that had a pregnant enlisted female friend report to a medical test wearing her uniform so she could get listed as pregnant to avoid deployment. The captain was caught in the lie and court martialed.

Unfortunately back then it was very common for female soldiers to get intentionally pregnant to avoid deployment. Back then we hadn't had a "real" war in over 15 years and most young enlisted people especially in the non-combat arms looked at the military more as a job than as a place they may really have to go to war in.

The commander of the support battalion in our division said he would process out of the army any single female in his battalion that planned on getting pregnant simply to avoid deployment. They lost nearly half their female soldiers.

[Rowan]

OK but I don't feel that either of you really answered the question. I had a boyfriend who was a drug addict. Even when he wasn't using every thing he said was a lie, I couldn't trust him with my heart how could I trust him with my life? People who are alcoholics and drug adicts have real issues with both emotional and physical pain. In combat they would be the least able to cope. In the hospital environment you can't even remove a bandaid without them screeming as if you were stabing them, how does this work in a combat situation? How can you work as a team or cohesive group if you cant' trust certain members or depend on them? Does this not add to the stress? make YOU less capable (your only as strong as your weakest link)? :wtf:

[shiningstar]

OK but I don't feel that either of you really answered the question. I had a boyfriend who was a drug addict. Even when he wasn't using every thing he said was a lie, I couldn't trust him with my heart how could I trust him with my life? People who are alcoholics and drug adicts have real issues with both emotional and physical pain.

Yes they do and before they put innocent lives on the line as was the case
with the alcoholics in my unit; those are issues they need to deal with.


That's not always true Gaelen.

IF they got the help they needed then YES that would be very true.
Because then they would be 'recovering' alcoholics and be in some
from of councilling.

When they refuse to get the help they need though ..........then
they are committing a criminal and even a treasonous act by thinking
only of 'their habit' and not of the people they are supposed to be working with.

In a combat situation if they were not drunk which they
often were their judgement would be impaired. I saw a man who was as
drunk as you can imagine pour oil on a running engine just to 'watch the
flames shoot up into the air."

In the hospital environment you can't even remove a bandaid without them screeming as if you were stabing them, how does this work in a combat situation? How can you work as a team or cohesive group if you cant' trust certain members or depend on them? Does this not add to the stress? make YOU less capable (your only as strong as your weakest link)? :wtf:

That's just it Gaelen ..........it doesn't work. If they are unwilling to face the
problem when they are given the option by the CO, then they are indeed
the weakest link. Every unit in the Military is only as strong as it's weakest
person and if that person's judgement is impaired ................then that person
can NOT be trusted and needs to be removed from the situation where
other people can be hurt.

And NO Antelope ..........I did not 'intentionaly' get pregnate in order to
avoid deployment. As a matter of fact I was one of the few women in
my unit who knew HOW to keep myself OUT of those situations. ;)

And yes I think that the woman in the military who intentionally got
theirselves pregnate should be prosecuted by court martial and or
by Article 15.

[Antelope]

We had three woman in our company in the Gulf War. All served well to include in combat. They were a credit to the Army and their families. One volunteered to be in a line platoon (chemical decon-back then woman were still banned from smoke and chemical recon platoons) when she had a position in company headquarters. She was moved to one of those platoons.

As an more complete answer to Gaelens questions:
Those who we KNEW did drugs were thrown out of the military or in the case of during real world deployments imprisoned.
Those who we KNEW were alcoholics were sent to an Army program. If they couldn't be rehabed they were put out.

We had no drug abusers or alcoholics in combat with us that we were aware of. To the best of my knowledge there were no drugs or alcohol even available even if you wanted some in the area my unit was stationed at in either Saudi Arabia, Iraq, or Kuwait back in 1990-1991.

The one story in my area that involved alcohol as I posted previously involved a medic in another unit that ODed on cold medicine. Obviously he was hard pressed to find a beer!

A major when I was in the 2ACR was caught drunk driving. Last I saw him that night he didn't look drunk at all. I guess he blew above the limit anyway. He was a good man and officer and no drunk. It ruined his career. If anything the army I was in took alcohol issues, especially in the officer and NCO ranks maybe harsher than needed.

[Rowan]

OK that's a lot more clear, I was getting the impression that you guys were working along side people who were know abusers and was wondering how you could possiby cope with that. Thanks :)

[shiningstar]

We had three woman in our company in the Gulf War. All served well to include in combat. They were a credit to the Army and their families. One volunteered to be in a line platoon (chemical decon-back then woman were still banned from smoke and chemical recon platoons) when she had a position in company headquarters. She was moved to one of those platoons.

As an more complete answer to Gaelens questions:
Those who we KNEW did drugs were thrown out of the military or in the case of during real world deployments imprisoned.
Those who we KNEW were alcoholics were sent to an Army program. If they couldn't be rehabed they were put out.

We had no drug abusers or alcoholics in combat with us that we were aware of. To the best of my knowledge there were no drugs or alcohol even available even if you wanted some in the area my unit was stationed at in either Saudi Arabia, Iraq, or Kuwait back in 1990-1991.

The one story in my area that involved alcohol as I posted previously involved a medic in another unit that ODed on cold medicine. Obviously he was hard pressed to find a beer!

A major when I was in the 2ACR was caught drunk driving. Last I saw him that night he didn't look drunk at all. I guess he blew above the limit anyway. He was a good man and officer and no drunk. It ruined his career. If anything the army I was in took alcohol issues, especially in the officer and NCO ranks maybe harsher than needed.

Thank you for posting this Antelope. I am thankful for the service that you
and the others who served gave to our country. :thumbsup:

[gunnerk19]

I'm curious why do we think Tigh is an alcoholic? We see him drinking and Kara calls him a drunk but is that what we are going on? She could have called him that out of spite , or just to piss him off. Is it not possible he's just drinking because of the crap he's going through with his wife, but that it's a temporary thing? "I feel sorry for myself" thing and not an actual problem with self control and drinking? Just wondering:) Sorry if I'm reading this wrong, but as far a Tigh IIRC, a few times in the mini you see him almost hiding the fact that he drinks, which is a classic sign of an alcoholic; Trust me, after a few DUI's, I've accepted that I myself am one, and I recognize the subtle indications... Besides the acceptable fact that Tigh was drunk off duty, his mental and physical facilities would still suffer when he was to report for his next duty day even after a nights sleep.
I'm sure I probably missed a few responses here, since I responded to the above reply right off and read no further, so forgive me if I repeat whatever has been already said; By the same token, he could simply be an old Career Navy officer who refuses to accept change (I.E., women pilots, his last commission becoming a museum, etc.), but regardless, I truly hope that viewers of the "Reimagined" BSG view it only as theatrical license and not the way things really are. I'm in the Service now and have been since '97, and I have seen how alcohol related offenses can really mess up a Soldiers career, however, I'm not all that certain it helps matters at all...
That is one of the things that I really miss about TOS; Call it "cotton candy" TV if you will, but back during TOS run, you never actually saw Colonial Warriors blood spill, only "non human" Cylons being blasted, and in all, nothing really graphic, which suited the 70's era well (example: A Team, Fall Guy, Greatest American Hero), all these shows confronted the good vs. bad conflict, but never fell back on using unacceptable images to convey the flow of the episode...
Oh well, call me an old timer, but personally, methinks that movie storylines nowadays are gleaning closer to everyday reality, even though as a culture we go to the Movies to ESCAPE reality...

My $.02...

[Antelope]

Good post gunnerk.

A couple nights ago I watched an Enterprise episdoe where Captain Archer was shot in the shoulder with a pistol. His shoulder exploding reminded me of the Kennedy assasination tape. I even thought at the moment I saw Archer shot, "That would have never been shown in Star Trek-TOS". It wasn't gratuitous or bad but it was a reminder to me about how things have changed and probabaly aren't going back any time soon. It doesn't mean things today are better or worse but it is the way it is. I miss the old days too sometimes. I think that will always be some of the innocent charm of TOS.

[unowhoandwhy]

OK that's a lot more clear, I was getting the impression that you guys were working along side people who were know abusers and was wondering how you could possiby cope with that. Thanks :)

People are inclined to pass on negative stories and information far more often than positive. Case in point is customer service. If you go somewhere and the service is terrible, you're going to tell just about everybody you can about the experience, but most people are less likely to pass on positive things like, "I had a very friendly waitress at the resturant last night." So, I guess we did give you the wrong view of alcohol abuse in the military.

Alcohol and drug abuse is absolutely not tolerated in the military. A certain amount of "boys will be boys (or girls will be girls)" heavy drinking occurs, but as long as it stayed at a social level and didn't afect your job performance it was tolerated. Not condoned, but tolerated. As for drugs, we were subject to random drug tests about once a month. Anyone who failed would be subject to discipline, punishment, criminal charges, discharge, etc. I know of only two people who failed and that was after I left. They spent some time in jail and received dishonorable discharges.

The majority of people I worked with were fine, loyal, hardworking soldiers and I trusted all of them with my life and safety on a daily basis.

[CrysWimmer]

D oesn't it scare you guys to have fellow soldiers who are alcoholics trained to kill and armed working side by side with you? do you feel you can count on them? :wtf:

Keep in mind, despite the current military positions, there are still a lot of "cush" jobs in the military. None are guaranteed - not at all - but not everyone is overseas and facing life-or-death situations. I spent 4 years in the air force, and my position was never life-or-death in the military sense, but definately a responsibility in the medical sense - I worked as a medical technician. That is not to say that I *couldn't* be sent into a wartime situation, but rather that as luck had it I wasn't. I had other friends who did equipment repair, inspections, you name it... none were in "wartime" stresses. Some drank, but none more than socially (that I'm aware of - keep in mind, I didn't drink, so I didn't run with that crowd). My brother OTOH was navy, and he tells stories of being drunk most every day of shore duty, fights in bars, tatoos that he doesn't remember getting - you get the picture. He survived it because once the sub went under, there WAS no alcohol - he couldn't have gotten drunk if he'd tried, so "on duty" he was sober. My father was a definite alcoholic, but again, there's no booze at sea, so the issues were only when he was on shore duty (one of the most despised things in the navy, from what I've seen). Also, my dad was active in the mid-forties, my brother retired in the early-eighties, and things have cracked-down since then. My husband's friend got hit with the "golden flow" (that's a surprise drug test - you get the call, and have 1 hour to report to the orderly room to have someone watch you pee in a cup - really dignified) and flunked - he was booted out on a dishonorable discharge within 30 days - the commander wanted to make a point. Another friend got in trouble for 2 DUIs, and he also was kicked out. The military isn't taking substance abuse lightly at all - not anymore.

And with all that said, we can only apply the "maybe" approach to BSG - remember, this may be based on our military to give us a frame of reference, but it's still fiction. The rules may be different. In fact, they must be if women are flying combat missions and men and women share bathrooms. If those standards are different, it follows that the approach to substance abuse might be altered as well.

Oh - one other note regarding the "realism" on television. I don't appreciate gore at all - and it was frankly disturbing to watch bodies floating off into space - but I'd rather see it "real" than have my nine-year-old thinking that when you shoot a gun there *isn't* blood and that when someone dies they just "grab their chest and close their eyes". Violence has been portrayed too lightly in our media - guns kill people (or rather people WITH guns kill people), bombings are fatal (those are REAL bodies on TV) and consequences are permanent. Not all problems are solved in 30 minutes with happy endings. I believe there's a place for those stories (heck, I still love Happy Days and the Brady Bunch) but there's also a place for drama with consequences. Unfortunately, our media tends to show all one or all the other - either it's all sit-coms or all cop-shows or all reality-shows - I think it would be nice if we had a better blend so that we could make a choice now and again. OTOH, that's the beauty of all these series becoming available on DVD - I can watch what I want when I'm in the mood for it.

Goodness, I got wordy <g>.

:salute:

[Aeneas]

Just pretend they are different people at different points in time who are in no way related.

I found over 150 Carters listed in the Sacramento phone book. 6 of them with the first name Terry or with only a T listed. I don't think any of them played Colonel Tigh on TOS! ;) I think we can assume that there are probably a few Colonel Tigh's in the Colonial fleet.

Of course maybe if Terry Carter woke up one day and looked in the mirror and saw mini-Tigh looking back at him it might explain the alcohol problem! :D


[late response] Don't suppose you checked the NORWEGIAN phone book(s), didja?(hint hint) ;)

[Aeneas]

Keep in mind, despite the current military positions, there are still a lot of "cush" jobs in the military. None are guaranteed - not at all - but not everyone is overseas and facing life-or-death situations. I spent 4 years in the air force, and my position was never life-or-death in the military sense, but definately a responsibility in the medical sense - I worked as a medical technician. That is not to say that I *couldn't* be sent into a wartime situation, but rather that as luck had it I wasn't. I had other friends who did equipment repair, inspections, you name it... none were in "wartime" stresses. Some drank, but none more than socially (that I'm aware of - keep in mind, I didn't drink, so I didn't run with that crowd). My brother OTOH was navy, and he tells stories of being drunk most every day of shore duty, fights in bars, tatoos that he doesn't remember getting - you get the picture. He survived it because once the sub went under, there WAS no alcohol - he couldn't have gotten drunk if he'd tried, so "on duty" he was sober. My father was a definite alcoholic, but again, there's no booze at sea, so the issues were only when he was on shore duty (one of the most despised things in the navy, from what I've seen). Also, my dad was active in the mid-forties, my brother retired in the early-eighties, and things have cracked-down since then. My husband's friend got hit with the "golden flow" (that's a surprise drug test - you get the call, and have 1 hour to report to the orderly room to have someone watch you pee in a cup - really dignified) and flunked - he was booted out on a dishonorable discharge within 30 days - the commander wanted to make a point. Another friend got in trouble for 2 DUIs, and he also was kicked out. The military isn't taking substance abuse lightly at all - not anymore.

And with all that said, we can only apply the "maybe" approach to BSG - remember, this may be based on our military to give us a frame of reference, but it's still fiction. The rules may be different. In fact, they must be if women are flying combat missions and men and women share bathrooms. If those standards are different, it follows that the approach to substance abuse might be altered as well.

Oh - one other note regarding the "realism" on television. I don't appreciate gore at all - and it was frankly disturbing to watch bodies floating off into space - but I'd rather see it "real" than have my nine-year-old thinking that when you shoot a gun there *isn't* blood and that when someone dies they just "grab their chest and close their eyes". Violence has been portrayed too lightly in our media - guns kill people (or rather people WITH guns kill people), bombings are fatal (those are REAL bodies on TV) and consequences are permanent. Not all problems are solved in 30 minutes with happy endings. I believe there's a place for those stories (heck, I still love Happy Days and the Brady Bunch) but there's also a place for drama with consequences. Unfortunately, our media tends to show all one or all the other - either it's all sit-coms or all cop-shows or all reality-shows - I think it would be nice if we had a better blend so that we could make a choice now and again. OTOH, that's the beauty of all these series becoming available on DVD - I can watch what I want when I'm in the mood for it.

Goodness, I got wordy <g>.

:salute:

[late response] yeah Crys, you said a mouthful. I was in the AF too. I saw a lot of drunks--either due to hanging out with 'em or apprehending 'em! :/: :salute: