Sex sells, but does romance make a better story?

[jewels]

I was talking about this with a friend would like to hear you all's takes on this:

Do you prefer romance without showing every last detail of the sex that *might* follow or do you like the openness or realism that shows like NYPD Blue (and others after it) showed with sex shown on screen.

Just want to see which way in general, you like relationship stories to be told. Being female (and the resident fleet Victorian to boot :D) I of course like the romance--I can fill in the rest myself without needing to have it shown.

Just wondering where everyone falls on this? Which direction (if you could be the ivory tower TV exec ;) ) would you want to take TV in general?

Jewels

[Dawg]

A bare Vulcan backside or a side-shot of bare breast may bring in viewers, but if there's no story to back it up you'll see the audience drift away almost immediately.

I'm of the opinion that if it's story-driven, i.e. if the more graphic depiction adds to the story, then it should be shown. If the sex/nudity is unsupported by the story, though (used for shock value, in other words), forget it. It doesn't belong on the kind of TV we're talking about, and is, in fact, a cheat.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Boomer65]

I agree with Dawg – I prefer whatever makes sense.

For example, the nudity in Titanic was tastefully done and IMO not gratuitous – it “fit”. Sometimes the directors go to such pains to hint that, yes these two characters are “doing” it, that it detracts from the story. So I often enjoy the realism that is shown in NYPD Blue, The Shield, ER, et al, because it is refreshing. I don’t enjoy it when it’s just there to be *there* as in the case of our much-debated BSG03.

But I don’t need to see every single last minuscule detail of the act.

[Darth Marley]

A different aspect of the romance/sex question is the issue of infidelity.
That is a case which the sex can also be alluded to, but since it is such a common human treachery, it has a place in many stories.

[SeoulWind]

It's the romance that makes it all the more interesting. Remember "Moonlighting"? Even the undercurrent of romance between two characters that profess to despise each other is enough to keep people coming back again and again to see what happens. "Beauty and the Beast" (the TV show) was another good example of how romance will keep viewers riveted for entire seasons.

Yes, sex sells. I wonder though, how many of the people who tune in to a show because the teaser indicates some skin will be shown stick around for more than a couple episodes afterwards.

Mark Snyder
Seoul, Korea

[cranky1c]

I think sexual tension between characters is one of the things that makes for a good story. "Moonlighting" was a great show until the two characters hooked up. Even "Frazur" went down hill after the Daphne/Niles romance was consumated. Stories are about people and how they relate, and a huge chunk of relating tends to be about fighting or drawing closer.

The question is how you portray it.

I think of romance as the subdiscipline of story telling that lingers on the drawing together of two people. This always makes for better drama because it's all about the relationship. Its sex of a sort, in that it's a meditation on the dance that leads up to more concrete intimacy, but the emphasis is on the lead up and the maintanence of the bond rather than the act itself. I think of overt sexuality as more playful and teasing, balancing out the seriousness of emotional intimacy with the sense of fun. Different stories call on different mixtuires of the two, depending on what the story is and who the audience is.

For purposes of discussion in BG, I think the idea of cylon sexuality is fascinating. What defines being alive more than the complexities of development and reproduction? Through the characters of Six and Boomer we see the cylons fully exploring physical sensuality, yet we know from the dialogue that they do not reproduce sexually. What drives a society that has no real use for sex to explore it so deeply? Mere exploitation of a human trait? Maybe. I hope it's more. That's one of the reasons I'll watch the new series.

[Rowan]

IDo you prefer romance without showing every last detail of the sex that *might* follow or do you like the openness or realism that shows like NYPD Blue (and others after it) showed with sex shown on screen.

Just want to see which way in general, you like relationship stories to be told. Being female (and the resident fleet Victorian to boot :D) I of course like the romance--I can fill in the rest myself without needing to have it shown.

Just wondering where everyone falls on this? Which direction (if you could be the ivory tower TV exec ;) ) would you want to take TV in general?

JewelsWell now that I wrote my answer and re-read your question and read cranky1c's eloquent explanation mine sounds very unsophisticated appologies:/:

Ah my favourite subject… I very much agree with Dawg, the scene can’t just be plunked down for the sake of throwing in a sex scene then it just bores me. I do like the occasional very romantic and sweet scene but only in a movie it would bore me if it was a week to week occurrence. In a week to week programme I love tension filled, but I don’t want the will they won’t they stuff either. I never want the pair to be married or engaged, makes it too safe for me (I know in reality it’s different).

But I like so many different styles and it depends what I’m watching (the genre). I like Scenes that make my tummy do flip flops, my heart race and my breathing quicken… Off the top of my head I can name a few from movies that do one, two or all three of these things for me (don’t worry I’ll keep it pg13). The Last Emperor: The 3 of them together under the silk sheets. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid when Katherine comes into the bedroom and Robert is sitting in a chair holding his gun and tells her to undress, Dirty Dancing the look in Patrick’s face when Jennifer approaches him , then a little later when he runs his hand down over her breast. Hardly overt but I get more from the expressions on the actors faces and the tension in the moment or the suggestion than actually seeing any flesh (have a great imagination). For a TV show I like the way it was handled on Nakita. The “were not officially together’ but “we want each other”, but “we can’t show it to the world”, but “we get to be with each other every once in a while” thing they did. Perfect tension for me and a few steamy scenes, but never anything overt. I did very much like the scene between Tyrol and Boomer and it stopped at a good spot. Fired up the imagination and left me to it. But I do really enjoy seeing scenes that are a lot more "explicit", (and no, I’m not talking sexual x-rated stuff for a weekly program) I mean showing nakedness (as in the beauty of the human form, artistic ), vulnerability (especially in the man meaning this woman’s sexuality has a power over him), surrender (in the eyes), sensuality, passion, a certain amount of aggression like what we saw with Boomer/Tyrol. This is harder to explain than I thought and I cant’ think of a movie to give as an example, mind you I’m usually disappointed by sex scenes in movies. aannnyyywwaayys , to make a very long story short. For me with regards to a Sci- fi weekly TV program it’s not about the sex it’s about the SCI- FI, and if there is sex I want it to play a MINOR role. whew ! way to much information…:wtf:

[The Rain]

OK, I touched on this in another thread.
Yes I agree that sex for ratings is just plain tasteless and really obscene. And that romance makes a far better story. But it shocks me that so many people seem to be saying the opposite from my opinion of the mini when it comes to the sex.
We saw a lusty scene with Baltar and 6 where she toys with his mind then bones him like a Bunny Ranch porn star. A few scenes later she murders a baby. Later she tells him who she is and what she's done and how she did it. This establishes the characters and their motivations!! It's not gratuitous!

Here's the real kicker that blows me away. So many of you kind folks have thought the above described scene wasn't needed but the Tyrol/Boomer scene was fun and OK. But I think the Tyrol/Boomer scene APPEARED to be gratuitous because the story which explains WHY they had to loudly argue about the broken gimbal as they left the hangar bay before ripping their clothes off to make out wasn't explained. I watched it and laughed saying "what the hell was that all about?" I had to think about a bit before I realized, OK, it was a show to hide their relationship from the crew. It really was a weak spot in the editing of the mini because there were scenes that explained it that were cut. Yet the sex was kept... for ratings. The impact of the scene and their relationship isn't really fully realized until the end when we find out Boomer is a Cylon.

NOW, if the relationship was portrayed romantically instead of sexually, the storyline could have built more tension. The sex could have been used, sparingly, for an episode where the order to "start making babies" results in a question as to why Boomer can't get pregnant. They do some tests and discover she's.... gasp!...A CYLON!!!!!

Now that's good drama folks. Think about it.

I think a lot of you guys have got a prejudice against the mini that's keeping you from seeing the forest because of the trees. It's a great show.

:salute:

[Airwolf]

Ok no long answers from me as i end up sounding stupid. But i'll throw my lot in. I would go with the romance, i think one of the things the mini missed was the entanglements that a true romance plot has in it, i mean i laughed at the trouble starbuck got into in TOS. But then maybe it would have been hard to stretch out a romance plot in everything that they had to cover. Maybe the series will sort that out but i only saw it the other day and seems as though there arent many chracters...am i wrong? and that basically leaves only apollo for that storyline.

[Titon]

For me i like bare naked vulcans! :P:

Ahem, back to reality though. One thing that made Galactica flow was it's romance and charm. You don't have to look any further than the Hand of God to see just how good it could have been. A romance that started and was flamed out before it had a chance to evolve.

Besides i like bare naked female viper pilots even better than bare naked Vulcan first officers.
:eek:

[Darth Marley]

Maybe you should be more specific about which Vulcan first officer you like to see naked.

[Rowan]

Maybe you should be more specific about which Vulcan first officer you like to see naked.
Yeah , good question, I was wondering the same thing, do tell, is it the ears? 'cause I have a thing for legolas, :drool: I don't think I drool that much though ..getting off topic again

[Boomer65]

We saw a lusty scene with Baltar and 6 where she toys with his mind then bones him like a Bunny Ranch porn star. A few scenes later she murders a baby. Later she tells him who she is and what she's done and how she did it. This establishes the characters and their motivations!! It's not gratuitous!
IMO the level of detail was, i.e. her thrashing about on top of him. Okay it could be argued that they were just trying to show that 6 is…ahem…anatomically correct. Or that their backs would glow during the act. I don’t know.

Here's the real kicker that blows me away. So many of you kind folks have thought the above described scene wasn't needed but the Tyrol/Boomer scene was fun and OK.
I knew immediately, when they started ripping at each other’s clothes, that they were arguing to cover up their relationship. The thing was, they didn’t need to show him strip her to the waist and actually start the act. They cut away before that. They showed us just enough to give us the idea of what was going on.

And the handjob scene? What the heck was that all about?

[jewels]

For me i like bare naked vulcans! :P:

Ahem, back to reality though. One thing that made Galactica flow was it's romance and charm. You don't have to look any further than the Hand of God to see just how good it could have been. A romance that started and was flamed out before it had a chance to evolve.

Besides i like bare naked female viper pilots even better than bare naked Vulcan first officers.
:eek:
Oh, go watch the locker room scene in "Saga of a Star World" or the pressure suit scene in Lost Planet of the Gods.... use your imagination. :naughty:

[Muffit]

Maybe you should be more specific about which Vulcan first officer you like to see naked.

LOL Darth!

You all can probably guess my feelings - without romance I see little point in sex, especially on screen. I don't have a problem with occasional brief scenes in movies if done tastefully, but I /don't/ like sex in my SciFi. I really hate it when I get a Sci Fi book and the author sticks gratuitous sexual inuendos and details in the middle of what (had) been a good story. I buy Sci Fi to read about Sci Fi. If I want oohs and ahhs and embarassing descriptions I'll read a romance novel thank you (which I don't). Very brief scenes onscreen within SciFi are okay so long as its not the primary content of the whole show (like a certain show I will not mention :)), and just there to entice pubescent boys to bring up the ratings.

Good writing does not consist of sticking lewdness into a story or script as often as you can. The content of good writing makes little difference and should never be to garner shock value; it's how well you tell that content that makes it appealing or not.

Suggestion is far, far more powerful than stark, blatant, leave-nothing-to-the-imagination scenes. You can get a girl's heart fluttering much faster with slowly revealed tenderness than you ever can by being crude. Movies should know that by now.

:muffit:

[shiningstar]

I was talking about this with a friend would like to hear you all's takes on this:

Do you prefer romance without showing every last detail of the sex that *might* follow or do you like the openness or realism that shows like NYPD Blue (and others after it) showed with sex shown on screen.

Just want to see which way in general, you like relationship stories to be told. Being female (and the resident fleet Victorian to boot :D) I of course like the romance--I can fill in the rest myself without needing to have it shown.

Just wondering where everyone falls on this? Which direction (if you could be the ivory tower TV exec ;) ) would you want to take TV in general?

Jewels


I like romance ...........but I really don't find it necessary to see the
ACT of SEX ..................... While it might SELL on screen .....................

It won't be 'shown' on MY screen .........If you get my meaning ............

I much prefer there to be something left to the imagination ..........that's one of the reasons I always loved to read so much.

[Antelope]

NOW, if the relationship was portrayed romantically instead of sexually, the storyline could have built more tension. The sex could have been used, sparingly, for an episode where the order to "start making babies" results in a question as to why Boomer can't get pregnant. They do some tests and discover she's.... gasp!...A CYLON!!!!!

Now that's good drama folks. Think about it.

I think a lot of you guys have got a prejudice against the mini that's keeping you from seeing the forest because of the trees. It's a great show.

:salute:

You have some great insight into the sex versus romance issue. Like you I think many can't appreciate the ground work layed in the mini because of their offense at the surface scenes. I think we do see the differences between amoral lust and the consequences and romance being layed down in the mini for a series. I think many forget this is really a pilot not a stand alone movie.

All the gratuitous sex scenes involve cylons or those that may be cylons. I think the cylon 6 scenes were a little over the top but I also realize that Moore was hammering home a point about the amoral use of sex to manipulate individuals. If anything he is subconciously telling us that such actions lead to our undoing. This is a very moral concept. Baltar is destroyed mentally as a result of his giving in to an obviously beautiful woman in a relationship based on nothing more than material trade. He let sex cloud his judgement. The moral of the story is as old as David and Bathsheba: sex outside of marriage leads to personal and physical destruction. :P:

The Boomer/Tyrol sex was a foreshadowing that Boomer is also a cylon. She may also be manipulating the technical king of her world on the Galactica. Will she be the undoing of Tyrol and the Galactica. Will lust again lead to destruction? We will have to watch the series to find out. :P:

Romance is in the mini also. We saw two examples of it. The obvious kiss between Duella and Roslin's assistant. That was the kiss we see in young junior high school students when just the right circumstance hits at just the right time. It is that first kiss that gives the glow that last all night. The kiss that tomorrow was an "accident" but haunts the memory for a long time later. It may be the start of something beautiful or just the magic of the night. It may have been two people that connected at a moment when all else was lost except each other. Again we will have to watch the series to find out. :rolleyes:

We also see the love of Kara for Lee. The love has been surpressed because they have both been in mourning for Zak. Zak was Kara'a love but Lee's brother. He doesn't want to wrong the memory of his brother and yet he is drawn to the woman who was so close to him. The very nature and anger of Kara is a call for help to heal the pain of Zak. Finally with Lee she has been able under the extreme circumstances of the halocaust to lower her defenses and in her way open up her heart and call to Lee for help and love. Where will this go we will just have to watch the series. :eek:

On the subject of cylon biology:

For all we know they can reproduce sexually. 6 and Boomer may be on the pill etc. There is some speculation that Boxey is the offspring of a 6 model and the officer on the armistice station. If Boomer does not know she is a cylon she believes she is an orphan and unless she was exchanged for someone with implanted memories she must have grown up from a child. To me this idea goes to the concept that they either are human or know they are cylons. I don't really think both can be logically true. :wtf:

Moore had less than four hours to introduce all the major characters, incite interest through contraversy, and lay the groundwork for a series. I think he had a good mix of romamnce and lust to accomplish his goal. :salute:

[shiningstar]

LOL Darth!

You all can probably guess my feelings - without romance I see little point in sex, especially on screen. I don't have a problem with occasional brief scenes in movies if done tastefully, but I /don't/ like sex in my SciFi. I really hate it when I get a Sci Fi book and the author sticks gratuitous sexual inuendos and details in the middle of what (had) been a good story. I buy Sci Fi to read about Sci Fi. If I want oohs and ahhs and embarassing descriptions I'll read a romance novel thank you (which I don't). Very brief scenes onscreen within SciFi are okay so long as its not the primary content of the whole show (like a certain show I will not mention :)), and just there to entice pubescent boys to bring up the ratings.

Good writing does not consist of sticking lewdness into a story or script as often as you can. The content of good writing makes little difference and should never be to garner shock value; it's how well you tell that content that makes it appealing or not.

Suggestion is far, far more powerful than stark, blatant, leave-nothing-to-the-imagination scenes. You can get a girl's heart fluttering much faster with slowly revealed tenderness than you ever can by being crude. Movies should know that by now.

:muffit:

Muffit Suggestion is more powerful ........................
As always your posts are true to the point and VERY insightful! :thumbsup:

[shiningstar]

by the way keep posting Muffit! I love your posts!

[Muffit]

Thanks Shiningstar! :)
:muffit:

[shiningstar]

Thanks Shiningstar! :)
:muffit:

Anytime :warrior: :salute: :warrior:

[Rowan]

I really hate it when I get a Sci Fi book and the author sticks gratuitous sexual inuendos and details in the middle of what (had) been a good story. I buy Sci Fi to read about Sci Fi. If I want oohs and ahhs and embarassing descriptions I'll read a romance novel thank you (which I don't). Very brief scenes onscreen within SciFi are okay so long as its not the primary content of the whole show. Good writing does not consist of sticking lewdness into a story or script as often as you can. The content of good writing makes little difference and should never be to garner shock value; it's how well you tell that content that makes it appealing or not.

Suggestion is far, far more powerful than stark, blatant, leave-nothing-to-the-imagination scenes. :muffit:
I gave up reading Piers Anthony because of that. I would rather after the scene gets to a certain point that they leave it to my immagination because they never do my imagination justice.;)

[Antelope]

The book Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein is IMHO the best scifi book ever written. However is is amazing how it was destroyed on the silver screen. Among the MANY things that were altered was unneeded and gratuitous scenes of naked woman. Some producers, writers, and directors just feel the need to change something and sex is always the first thing they reach for. I guess they think they will get a 10% boost in young male audience with a T&A scene or two.

Isn't it always amazing how in the middle of every slasher movie a young woman will feel the need to take a shower no matter how many of her friends were killed in the previous 60 minutes!

[shiningstar]

I gave up reading Piers Anthony because of that. I would rather after the scene gets to a certain point that they leave it to my immagination because they never do my imagination justice.;)


That's precisely my point Gaelen .............well said. :warrior:

[shiningstar]

The book Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein is IMHO the best scifi book ever written. However is is amazing how it was destroyed on the silver screen. Among the MANY things that were altered was unneeded and gratuitous scenes of naked woman. Some producers, writers, and directors just feel the need to change something and sex is always the first thing they reach for. I guess they think they will get a 10% boost in young male audience with a T&A scene or two.

Isn't it always amazing how in the middle of every slasher movie a young woman will feel the need to take a shower no matter how many of her friends were killed in the previous 60 minutes!

That's so true Antelope .........so true indeed.

[Rowan]

You have some great insight into the sex versus romance issue. Like you I think many can't appreciate the ground work layed in the mini because of their offense at the surface scenes. I think we do see the differences between amoral lust and the consequences and romance being layed down in the mini for a series. I think many forget this is really a pilot not a stand alone movie.

All the gratuitous sex scenes involve cylons or those that may be cylons. I think the cylon 6 scenes were a little over the top but I also realize that Moore was hammering home a point about the amoral use of sex to manipulate individuals. If anything he is subconciously telling us that such actions lead to our undoing. This is a very moral concept. Baltar is destroyed mentally as a result of his giving in to an obviously beautiful woman in a relationship based on nothing more than material trade. He let sex cloud his judgement. The moral of the story is as old as David and Bathsheba: sex outside of marriage leads to personal and physical destruction. :P:

The Boomer/Tyrol sex was a foreshadowing that Boomer is also a cylon. She may also be manipulating the technical king of her world on the Galactica. Will she be the undoing of Tyrol and the Galactica. Will lust again lead to destruction? We will have to watch the series to find out. :P:


On the subject of cylon biology:

For all we know they can reproduce sexually. 6 and Boomer may be on the pill etc. There is some speculation that Boxey is the offspring of a 6 model and the officer on the armistice station. If Boomer does not know she is a cylon she believes she is an orphan and unless she was exchanged for someone with implanted memories she must have grown up from a child. To me this idea goes to the concept that they either are human or know they are cylons. I don't really think both can be logically true. :wtf:

Moore had less than four hours to introduce all the major characters, incite interest through contraversy, and lay the groundwork for a series. I think he had a good mix of romamnce and lust to accomplish his goal. :salute:Wow antelope your making my brain work
I'ts almost too bad that they didn't make it a 3 part series instead because he had to cram SSSSOOO much into such a short amount of time, as you say to lay the ground work for an eventual series. (I want to see the DVD when it comes out for more info)
Cylons I totally missed that moral ,whhooosh right over my head (I need more sleep) thanks for pointing it out it now seems really blatant .
there is a couple of places like #6 asking the man if he's human and looking fascinated by him which made me feel therfore that she wasn't . but there is that scene between Commander Adama, Baltar, and the EX. O where they discus the tests that were performed on th e cylon Adama killed on the munitions dump. they said that everything from the lymphatic system was just like us it was only by cremating the tissues that they were able to determin that it was artificial. According to biologists the following criteria determine if something is alive. (for anyone who does'nt all ready know)
1. Living organisms are complex and highly organized
2. Living things take energy from their environment and change it from one form to another
3. Living things are homeostatic
4. Living things respond to stimuli
5. Living things reproduce themselves
6. Living things grow and develop
7. Living things are adapted
8. The information by which living things organize their purposeful structures and functions, maintin homeostasis, convert energy, respond to stimuli, reproduce, and develop is all containded within the individual organism itself

Now if the Cylons are on the pill then we will never know for sure ?:(
But why can't they be cylons with immplanted memory chips and therefore not know they aren't human. like in the movie Blade runner?
Thanks that was fun, I like your letters:)

[Antelope]

Even if the human-cylons are mere humans maybe the cylons have the ability to implant or erase memory.

There is no test to determine if one is a cylon. Under autopsy the medical people could not tell a human and cylon apart. Only Baltar understands his test. He knows his test can't detect a cylon but it has everyone fooled for the moment. Baltar was under the impression he was sending an innocent man to his doom in order to remove the "cylon" device in the CIC. The fact that 6 guided Baltar to remove that individual while telling Baltar that he was not a cylon (Never saw him at the cylon parties) throws some question into what exactly is the motivation of the 6 character assumming she is implanted in Baltar. Is she part of a plan and her goal was to "help" the cylon get off the Galactica or was she removing a threat to Galactica unknown to Baltar. It also adds some speculation into whether Baltar has been replaced by a duplicate but does not realize it. More good questions for the series.

[Rowan]

Even if the human-cylons are mere humans maybe the cylons have the ability to implant or erase memory.

There is no test to determine if one is a cylon. Under autopsy the medical people could not tell a human and cylon apart. Only Baltar understands his test. He knows his test can't detect a cylon but it has everyone fooled for the moment. Baltar was under the impression he was sending an innocent man to his doom in order to remove the "cylon" device in the CIC. The fact that 6 guided Baltar to remove that individual while telling Baltar that he was not a cylon (Never saw him at the cylon parties) throws some question into what exactly is the motivation of the 6 character assumming she is implanted in Baltar. Is she part of a plan and her goal was to "help" the cylon get off the Galactica or was she removing a threat to Galactica unknown to Baltar. It also adds some speculation into whether Baltar has been replaced by a duplicate but does not realize it. More good questions for the series.
OK I get it :light: (fake test thing)
Boy are you ever thinking this through, must admit it never occured to me she might have been trying to help the other cylon get off the ship or protecting Baltar I did wonder why she lied to Baltar about recognizing the other cylon. (i'm usually swifter than this :blush: between school , pneumonia and lack of sleep my brain is fried (insert ACK! face here) that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!
Thanks for the great chat! I love these kinds of conversations, never had the chance to discuss it before no one I know likes Scifi:)

[Rowan]

oopsy I just realized that I should be having this conversation else were like maybe predictions or something sory for those looking to read some smut, I mean romannce/love:)

[Gemini1999]

You know, I get tired of hearing the phrase "sex sells". Sells what? To whom? What kind of an audience? An even a bigger question - why? Storytelling and moviemaking got along just fine until 30-40 years ago with leaving us at the bedroom door and to our imaginations as to what happens next. I have friends that always say "Where's the (insert body part here)??" Why is that really necessary? Does it further plot? Not really - it's pure titallation to my mind. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a prude or anything. I just get tired of hearing the same old excuses like "times are changing" and so on as an excuse for letting TV producers and filmmakers turn it into a free-for-all just to make a buck.

I recently heard (or read) someone say that "today's audiences are more sophisticated". Sophisticated? How is it sophisticated to want more "realistic" violence, bad language, naked bodies and sex acts in our entertainment? I think that society is actually taking a big slide and the entertainment industry is making money off of it at the same time by encouraging it and catering to the "worst' part of some people.

I remember when NYPD Blue started on ABC a number of years ago and it was heralded as "quality" TV show. The big deal over the show was the fact that you could get to see David Caruso's "not so attractive naked butt" on TV - and this was on a channel that is owned by Disney! What's "ABC" supposed to stand for? The "A**- Bearing-Channel"?

Sex may sell, but it's working on me... While I can deal with a bit of nudity now and then if the scene really "demands" it, the more graphic things get, the less I want to watch TV or go to a movie.

Okay....that was exhausting - I've had it on my mind since this thread started. I hope it didn't sound like rambling!

Best,
Bryan
________
Cheap Airsoft Shotguns (http://airsoft-shop.info/categories/shotguns/)

[shiningstar]

You know, I get tired of hearing the phrase "sex sells". Sells what? To whom? What kind of an audience? An even a bigger question - why? Storytelling and moviemaking got along just fine until 30-40 years ago with leaving us at the bedroom door and to our imaginations as to what happens next. I have friends that always say "Where's the (insert body part here)??" Why is that really necessary? Does it further plot? Not really - it's pure titallation to my mind. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a prude or anything. I just get tired of hearing the same old excuses like "times are changing" and so on as an excuse for letting TV producers and filmmakers turn it into a free-for-all just to make a buck.

I recently heard (or read) someone say that "today's audiences are more sophisticated". Sophisticated? How is it sophisticated to want more "realistic" violence, bad language, naked bodies and sex acts in our entertainment? I think that society is actually taking a big slide and the entertainment industry is making money off of it at the same time by encouraging it and catering to the "worst' part of some people.

I remember when NYPD Blue started on ABC a number of years ago and it was heralded as "quality" TV show. The big deal over the show was the fact that you could get to see David Caruso's "not so attractive naked butt" on TV - and this was on a channel that is owned by Disney! What's "ABC" supposed to stand for? The "A**- Bearing-Channel"?

Sex may sell, but it's working on me... While I can deal with a bit of nudity now and then if the scene really "demands" it, the more graphic things get, the less I want to watch TV or go to a movie.

Okay....that was exhausting - I've had it on my mind since this thread started. I hope it didn't sound like rambling!

Best,
Bryan

Your thoughts are very insightful Bryan ......I wish you'd post more often

[Antelope]

[QUOTE=Gemini1999]
I recently heard (or read) someone say that "today's audiences are more sophisticated". Sophisticated? How is it sophisticated to want more "realistic" violence, bad language, naked bodies and sex acts in our entertainment? I think that society is actually taking a big slide and the entertainment industry is making money off of it at the same time by encouraging it and catering to the "worst' part of some people. ---- End Quote ---

You hit the nail on the head. I think we need to replace the word sophisticated to actually mean vulgar or low brow. As media reaches a more mass audience it caters to the least eduacted and crudest among us. When the written word was limited to a class of scribes or an upper class in a mainly illiterate world we ended up with the Greek, Latin, or Renaissance classics. In the early days of television, TV catered to the middle to upper class Americans who could afford to own a television. Now that everyone in America has a TV we are seeing a return of the kind of fare that has enraptured the low brow audiences in former days. The gratuitous violence and sex on TV today is little more than a modern version of the spectacle the uneducated masses demanded at public hangings, executions, bear baiting, gladiatorial sport, and the like.

An interesting thing to remember is that most people who went to the Globe Theatre in Old England went to see the bear baiting not Shakespeare! Nothing has changed. :(

[Boomer65]

How is it sophisticated to want more "realistic" violence, bad language, naked bodies and sex acts in our entertainment?
Realistically, police don’t talk/act like those of Hawaii 5-0 or Adam 12. Realistically, families aren’t like the Brady Bunch or have fathers like Bill Cosby – if you can show me one I’ll show you some severely repressed children who will most likely grow up to be the next Tommy Lee or Kurt Cobain.

IMO, dancing around the obvious can be just as annoying as the unnecessary nude/sex scene. I admit, I liked it when the lead character on FX’s The Shield called his captain an “a$$hole”. That was REAL but more importantly, it fit. It wasn’t there just to shock the audience.

While I can deal with a bit of nudity now and then if the scene really "demands" it, the more graphic things get, the less I want to watch TV or go to a movie.
The problem is that the copycats see that these shows, like NYPD Blue, are popular and mistakenly think that it’s BECAUSE of the nudity and language. So they try to duplicate the success simply by throwing in a bunch of nudity and language failing to realize that NYPD Blue was good because it had good acting and good writing first instead of last.

[shiningstar]

Realistically, police don’t talk/act like those of Hawaii 5-0 or Adam 12. Realistically, families aren’t like the Brady Bunch or have fathers like Bill Cosby – if you can show me one I’ll show you some severely repressed children who will most likely grow up to be the next Tommy Lee or Kurt Cobain.

IMO, dancing around the obvious can be just as annoying as the unnecessary nude/sex scene. I admit, I liked it when the lead character on FX’s The Shield called his captain an “a$$hole”. That was REAL but more importantly, it fit. It wasn’t there just to shock the audience.


The problem is that the copycats see that these shows, like NYPD Blue, are popular and mistakenly think that it’s BECAUSE of the nudity and language. So they try to duplicate the success simply by throwing in a bunch of nudity and language failing to realize that NYPD Blue was good because it had good acting and good writing first instead of last.

You're right alot of people don't have Parent's like Lorne Greene, Marcos Welby or Bill cosby for that matter.

But that doesn't mean that everyone wants to see people being abused, used,
and discarded on TV ..............

NYPD was popular before the NUDE scenes. It was popular due to a excellent
plot line of course as the nude scenes appeared .............I switched the channels
and never watched it again.

If I want to see someone NUDE I'll look at my husband ...........I'm not into that
sort of thing on TV and I won't let my children watch it either.

[shiningstar]

[QUOTE=Gemini1999]
I recently heard (or read) someone say that "today's audiences are more sophisticated". Sophisticated? How is it sophisticated to want more "realistic" violence, bad language, naked bodies and sex acts in our entertainment? I think that society is actually taking a big slide and the entertainment industry is making money off of it at the same time by encouraging it and catering to the "worst' part of some people. ---- End Quote ---

You hit the nail on the head. I think we need to replace the word sophisticated to actually mean vulgar or low brow. As media reaches a more mass audience it caters to the least eduacted and crudest among us. When the written word was limited to a class of scribes or an upper class in a mainly illiterate world we ended up with the Greek, Latin, or Renaissance classics. In the early days of television, TV catered to the middle to upper class Americans who could afford to own a television. Now that everyone in America has a TV we are seeing a return of the kind of fare that has enraptured the low brow audiences in former days. The gratuitous violence and sex on TV today is little more than a modern version of the spectacle the uneducated masses demanded at public hangings, executions, bear baiting, gladiatorial sport, and the like.

An interesting thing to remember is that most people who went to the Globe Theatre in Old England went to see the bear baiting not Shakespeare! Nothing has changed. :(

Whether or not I agree with you Antelope .......I enjoy reading what you have to say. Keep it up.

[Boomer65]

But that doesn't mean that everyone wants to see people being abused, used,
and discarded on TV
True but I think that audiences have, generally, outgrown the sanitized programming of a couple of decades ago. They want to see more realism in television. And yes, some networks have tried to attract viewers simply by offering shows designed to titillate but thankfully most fail. I think the recent Skin series which seemed to be ONLY about sex was cancelled after only a few weeks.

NYPD was popular before the NUDE scenes.
And Law & Order remains popular after more than a decade without having to resort to nudity, etc. I’d say there’s a fairly balanced mix of programming out there designed to suit everyone’s tastes. Thankfully, the more explicit stuff is aired after 10 pm (Superbowl Half-time show aside :upchuck: ).

[Bombadil]

NYPD was popular before the NUDE scenes. It was popular due to a excellent
plot line of course as the nude scenes appeared .............I switched the channels
and never watched it again.

That brings us to a crucial set of questions: 1) How many potential viewers are out there who are teetering on the brink, and who WILL watch the series only if it continues to have blatant sex in it? 2) How many potential viewers are out there who are already favorably inclined and who already want to watch the show, but who WON'T if it continues to have blatant sex in it? I know for sure of one. Are there more?

Now that I've had twelve weeks to think things through, I have come to realize several things more clearly:
- When I first saw the ads for the upcomign mini, I was filled with eager anticipation. Why? Because I liked the original show. For all its hokiness and complete disregard for real science, it was FUN to watch. I liked the SHIP, I liked the CHARACTERS, and I liked the PREMISE. A remake seemed like a wonderful thing.
- When I actually saw the mini, I liked it. A lot. I wanted the series to get greenlighted (greennlit?) BUT. . .
- On deeper reflection, the mini had some weaknesses that worry me. Some of them are weaknesses in the story, making me fear that it will collapse the way Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea did when it degenerated into a "monster of the week" show. That is to say, weak plots leading to desperation leading to abandonment of real effort to attain quality, and settling instead for what shocks, titillates, and scares. "Voyage" started out with a lot of potential, then it went down the toilet. BG2003 could very easily go that route. And the blatant sex would ruin it for me. I still like the SHIP, I still like the PREMISE, but I am not yet certain about the CHARACTERS, and if Baltar and 6 keep carrying on the way they did in the beginning, then I will turn it off.

That's the bottom line, isn't it? Will I watch it, or will I not watch it? I am predisposed to watch it. But if the sex doesn't get dialed WAY back, I won't.

End of line.

:/:

[Antelope]

Regular television can only push things so far in the sex area because if all you care about is sex you can buy or rent all the porno you want. Since the sex on TV will never equal porno they have to keep some plot or loose their audience.

Violence is another story. Television is still seeing how much they can push this. If the FCC didn't stop them we would see all kinds of brutality. If it was publically acceptable we would still fill stadiums to watch the gladiators. Many recent movies like "Saving Private Ryan (A movie I liked very much)" and "Gladiator" show just how violent things can get. Now we can watch killings that are even "better" than the real thing.

Audiences haven't matured. We are just commercially back to giving the public what it has always wanted, blood lust and sex to fill the basest of curiosity and desire.

[shiningstar]

True but I think that audiences have, generally, outgrown the sanitized programming of a couple of decades ago. They want to see more realism in television. And yes, some networks have tried to attract viewers simply by offering shows designed to titillate but thankfully most fail. I think the recent Skin series which seemed to be ONLY about sex was cancelled after only a few weeks.


And Law & Order remains popular after more than a decade without having to resort to nudity, etc. I’d say there’s a fairly balanced mix of programming out there designed to suit everyone’s tastes. Thankfully, the more explicit stuff is aired after 10 pm (Superbowl Half-time show aside :upchuck: ).

Yeah too bad the authorities weren't smart enough to arrest her and
her COHORTS right then for indecent exposure and contributing to
the deliquency of Minors ...............

if it had been a NONcelebrity then that's what WOULD have happened.

[Rowan]

You know, I get tired of hearing the phrase "sex sells". Sells what? To whom? What kind of an audience? An even a bigger question - why?


Okay....that was exhausting - I've had it on my mind since this thread started. I hope it didn't sound like rambling!

Best,
Bryannot at all:) allways good to get these kinds of things off our chests!


Hey Gemini (one of my favorite zodiac signs btw)
I've always understood it to mean that it "gets peoples attention" just an observation if you look at the board were this thread is posted and subtract the "stickys", and look, at the hits for each thread (I just stuck with the first page) 12 out of 47 threads rate higher than this one and most of those threads are considerably older than this one. The word Sex is in the title of this thread. We are curious by nature and wether or not we like what we see when we get there is irrelevant the thing is we looked, and that is all the advertizers are looking for. With regards to advertising; in school they explained the target audience is the person portrayed in the add. Advertizers must really have faith in this kind of advertising one has but to spend a few minutes fliping through a Maxim magazine to see how advertising has digressed by 30 yrs in their portaryal of women.(as if the whole womens lib thing never took place)

[shiningstar]

not at all:) allways good to get these kinds of things off our chests!


Hey Gemini (one of my favorite zodiac signs btw)
I've always understood it to mean that it "gets peoples attention" just an observation if you look at the board were this thread is posted and subtract the "stickys", and look, at the hits for each thread (I just stuck with the first page) 12 out of 47 threads rate higher than this one and most of those threads are considerably older than this one. The word Sex is in the title of this thread. We are curious by nature and wether or not we like what we see when we get there is irrelevant the thing is we looked, and that is all the advertizers are looking for. With regards to advertising; in school they explained the target audience is the person portrayed in the add. Advertizers must really have faith in this kind of advertising one has but to spend a few minutes fliping through a Maxim magazine to see how advertising has digressed by 30 yrs in there portaryal of women.(as if the whole womens lib thing never took place)

I think you've made some very good points here ............keep posting.

[Bombadil]

Let me rephrase something:

"I am not yet certain about the CHARACTERS, and if Baltar and 6 keep carrying on the way they did in the beginning, then I will turn it off."

No, poor choice of words. Their conduct is indeed important to the story. I mean, if the writers insist on showing too much of what actually goes on. . . then I will turn it off. Just like I did 7th Heaven when they morphed it from a good family show into a soap opera about a dysfunctional family.

[shiningstar]

Let me rephrase something:

"I am not yet certain about the CHARACTERS, and if Baltar and 6 keep carrying on the way they did in the beginning, then I will turn it off."

No, poor choice of words. Their conduct is indeed important to the story. I mean, if the writers insist on showing too much of what actually goes on. . .

I truelly think there is a way to do that ........without GOING OVERBOARD as
they did in the mini.

[N~still]

:eek: :devil: I am not opposed to sex in a story and nudity because well d'oh most of the time ya can't have one without the other; except for quick gropes but to me they don't count; but just sex for sex; go rent porn or watch the premium channels after 9pm> I think it's a dangerous trend myself, because it's shows we have our mind on the flesh and not on what we can possibly accomplish.

I'm a woman and like Gaelen mentioned in another thread we want the real thang, not flowers and candy or gifts but "decent" guys. I guess my ideal guy would buy me a washing machine if i needed it. We don't want frilly men but we don't want testorone filled machines either; human and open to change, Though a guy in a friily apron with nothing else....... hmmmmm :laugh: Naw, I wouldn't do it.

I want a story i can sink my teeth into and not the mundane soap-opera diatribe we get and not Harlequin~ish; they annoy me. Dang it... i want that balance..... strong story with actual diversity in characters; a little space science, a little battle scene, some kickin' effects. Can they do that? The mini started it but not enough diversity. I as a woman would like to see less of the Gaius arc and more of the interplay btn bridge mates and of course the maintenance crew! ;)

[unowhoandwhy]

Maybe you should be more specific about which Vulcan first officer you like to see naked.

Spock! I say Spock! I was negative 6 years old when the first Star Trek aired, but he was my very first crush when I saw him in reruns and on "In Search Of..."

As for romance vs. sex: I don't object to a little skin (especially not when it's HOT skin! (oh shallow me!)) but only when it's is an integral part of the story. The new Cylons use sex as a weapon or a tool (or whatever) so that made sense. Although, I was totally uninterested in seeing either character naked, not my type. But, my favorite scene in the mini involving sex and/or romance was the Tyrol/Boomer reunion. That affected me far more deeply than when they just ripped their clothes off and did the deed.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that sex is OK as long as it makes sense within the storyline and if there's love, but not if it's just wild monkey alley cat type action.

[Bombadil]

Here's another thought: in TOS, religiously-grounded monogamy played a highly important role. Getting "sealed" I believe they called it. Essentially, getting married.

Monogamous, permanent, one-man-one-woman marriage is still the best way to go, both for individuals and for society as a whole. There is a good reason why there has been such an increase in poverty amoung children in the past thirty years--more unwed mothers raising children on their own. Marriage, in the actual world that we inhabit, is primarily about children first and property/economic rights second. Personal pleasure and fulfillment ranks a distant third at best.

Even if it cuts back on the hot close-ups of writhing Cylons, BG03 will still do women a disservice if it continues with the currently-popular philosophy of Hugh Hefner and Sex in the City. Even tastefully-done bedroom scenes between unmarried partners only reinforces the destructive idea that marriage is OK if it's your cup of tea, but it's purely a matter of personal preference and choice.

Give this point to TOS, unless Ron Moore shifts direction from what we saw in the mini.
:rose:

[Antelope]

Thus far the people involved in non-married sexual relations in the mini are either ruined in the case of Baltar or possibly being used by a cylon in the case of Tyrol. In cut scenes the results of such activity is viewed negatively by Tyrol's compatriots and the source of COL Tigh's alcoholism. Thus far the message is unmarried sex leads to personal destruction. I hardly call this the mantra of the masses. I think we are a bit to angry at the scene to get the scenes message. The only pure love shown in the mini thus far was between Lee, Kara, and Commander Adama. None of it was sexual and all brought a positive result to the characters involved.

[shiningstar]

:eek: :devil: I am not opposed to sex in a story and nudity because well d'oh most of the time ya can't have one without the other; except for quick gropes but to me they don't count; but just sex for sex; go rent porn or watch the premium channels after 9pm> I think it's a dangerous trend myself, because it's shows we have our mind on the flesh and not on what we can possibly accomplish.

I'm a woman and like Gaelen mentioned in another thread we want the real thang, not flowers and candy or gifts but "decent" guys. I guess my ideal guy would buy me a washing machine if i needed it. We don't want frilly men but we don't want testorone filled machines either; human and open to change, Though a guy in a friily apron with nothing else....... hmmmmm :laugh: Naw, I wouldn't do it.

I want a story i can sink my teeth into and not the mundane soap-opera diatribe we get and not Harlequin~ish; they annoy me. Dang it... i want that balance..... strong story with actual diversity in characters; a little space science, a little battle scene, some kickin' effects. Can they do that? The mini started it but not enough diversity. I as a woman would like to see less of the Gaius arc and more of the interplay btn bridge mates and of course the maintenance crew! ;)

Well written N~still ..........keep posting

[shiningstar]

Spock! I say Spock! Is was negative 6 years old when the first Star Trek aired, but he was my very first crush when I saw him in reruns and on "In Search Of..."

As for romance vs. sex: I don't object to a little skin (especially not when it's HOT skin! (oh shallow me!)) but only when it's is an integral part of the story. The new Cylons use sex as a weapon or a tool (or whatever) so that made sense. Although, I was totally uninterested in seeing either character naked, not my type. But, my favorite scene in the mini involving sex and/or romance was the Tyrol/Boomer reunion. That affected me far more deeply than when they just ripped their clothes off and did the deed.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that sex is OK as long as it makes sense within the storyline and if there's love, but not if it's just wild monkey alley cat type action.

Love the Avatar is that a German short hair pointer?

[shiningstar]

Thus far the people involved in non-married sexual relations in the mini are either ruined in the case of Baltar or possibly being used by a cylon in the case of Tyrol. In cut scenes the results of such activity is viewed negatively by Tyrol's compatriots and the source of COL Tigh's alcoholism. Thus far the message is unmarried sex leads to personal destruction. I hardly call this the mantra of the masses. I think we are a bit to angry at the scene to get the scenes message. The only pure love shown in the mini thus far was between Lee, Kara, and Commander Adama. None of it was sexual and all brought a positive result to the characters involved.

Excellent points Antelope.

[shiningstar]

Here's another thought: in TOS, religiously-grounded monogamy played a highly important role. Getting "sealed" I believe they called it. Essentially, getting married.

Monogamous, permanent, one-man-one-woman marriage is still the best way to go, both for individuals and for society as a whole. There is a good reason why there has been such an increase in poverty amoung children in the past thirty years--more unwed mothers raising children on their own. Marriage, in the actual world that we inhabit, is primarily about children first and property/economic rights second. Personal pleasure and fulfillment ranks a distant third at best.

Even if it cuts back on the hot close-ups of writhing Cylons, BG03 will still do women a disservice if it continues with the currently-popular philosophy of Hugh Hefner and Sex in the City. Even tastefully-done bedroom scenes between unmarried partners only reinforces the destructive idea that marriage is OK if it's your cup of tea, but it's purely a matter of personal preference and choice.

Give this point to TOS, unless Ron Moore shifts direction from what we saw in the mini.
:rose:

Well written Thomas ..............:thumbsup:

[Rowan]

I’ve loved many men in my life but never found one I wanted to marry, or raise children with. I can’t imagine going my whole life never bonding with someone on a physical level, just because I’m not married. Frankly I don’t know if I could have lived like that. And if it was my only choice then I would probably have married someone made his and my life miserable and to what end? And what about those who are sterile for various reasons if marriage is about children first and they can’t have any then what is their motivation for marriage?
In my opinion the increase in poverty and children has nothing to do with whether women marry but that they are alone to raise children. There are plenty of women out there who did marry and are now divorced and trying to raise children on their own. These women have difficulty because generally they don’t have either the same level of education, income, or opportunities that their husbands did, because they got married young or stayed home to care for the children and were not working on developing their career. Added to this is that many ex-husbands fall behind in their payments, wont or can’t meet their financial commitment to their children. (I understand that it’s difficult for them too, having to start over or an ex-wife who likes to make life hell for them, or just the emotional anguish of being separated from their kids). Poverty and children is also impacted by our lack of education with regards to young people and contraception, and government policies and lack of social support and programmes. It’s a highly complex issue. Your description of marriage sounds a little more like duty, than something enjoyable. My understanding from what you have written is (correct me if I’m wrong) get married, have kids, get property, be financially stable, then have pleasure? For some people that would mean a lifetime without considering personal pleasure and for them that is the only pleasure life holds. Finances prevent them from pursuing other venues, except maybe drugs and alcohol for the purpose of escaping their pleasure less lives.
I seem to recall Starbuck being quite the womanizer in TOS I was under the impression he was caught cheating on his girls and he wasn’t married and I ‘m sure he wasn’t waiting for marriage either!

With regards to doing a disservice, what about the men? When I talk to my girlfriend it’s the guys who drag their feet when it comes to commitment not the women. So lets see more honourable men being portrayed, gentlemen desiring commitment and waiting for marriage, not pressuring the women to jump in bed with them hhhmmm let me think where have I seen that ?:)

[shiningstar]

I’ve loved many men in my life but never found one I wanted to marry, or raise children with. I can’t imagine going my whole life never bonding with someone on a physical level, just because I’m not married. Frankly I don’t know if I could have lived like that. And if it was my only choice then I would probably have married someone made his and my life miserable and to what end? And what about those who are sterile for various reasons if marriage is about children first and they can’t have any then what is there motivation for marriage?
In my opinion the increase in poverty and children has nothing to do with whether women marry but that they are alone to raise children. There are plenty of women out there who did marry and are now divorced and trying to raise children on their own. These women have difficulty because generally they don’t have either the same level of education, income, or opportunities that their husbands did, because they got married young or stayed home to care for the children and were not working on developing their career. Added to this is that many ex-husbands fall behind in their payments, wont or can’t meet their financial commitment to their children. (I understand that it’s difficult for them too, having to start over or an ex-wife who likes to make life hell for them, or just the emotional anguish of being separated form their kids). Poverty and children is also impacted by our lack of education with regards to young people and contraception, and government policies and lack of social support and programmes. It’s a highly complex issue. Your description of marriage sounds a little more like duty, than something enjoyable. My understanding from what you have written is (correct me if I’m wrong) get married, have kids, get property, be financially stable, then have pleasure? For some people that would mean a lifetime without considering personal pleasure and for them that is the only pleasure life holds for them. Finances prevent them from pursuing other venues, except maybe drugs and alcohol for the purpose of escaping their pleasure less lives.
I seem to recall Starbuck being quite the womanizer in TOS I was under the impression he was caught cheating on his girls and he wasn’t married and I ‘m sure he wasn’t waiting for marriage either!

With regards to doing a disservice, what about the men? When I talk to my girlfriend it’s the guys who drag their feet when it comes to commitment not the women. So lets see more honourable men being portrayed, gentlemen desiring commitment and waiting for marriage, not pressuring the women to jump in bed with them hhhmmm let me think where have I seen that ?:)

Gaelen you're still young. In my case I waited. I decided rather then marrying
simply because my family wanted me to marry and have babies; I decided to
wait for someone who would love me for me. My mother threw a fit about my
decision ...............as a matter of fact everyone 'I' knew did as well ..........but
I stuck by my decision to WAIT for someone who would love and respect me
as I did him.

I have no regrets about that. My husband loves me for who I am and not
for who 'he' wants me to be. We've been married for 11 years now and no
'major' marriage crises has occured. We have two little girls who know that
we love each other and that we love them and as long as God wills it .........
we'll be together.

And as for my husband ............he wanted to marry me after the fourth date
after I confessed that I loved him on the third date ............I made him wait
for one year. I'm glad that I didn't rush into the relationship. I'm glad that I
waited ......... and he now admits that he was glad that I made him wait that
one year too. There are honorable men out there ............you just have to be
willing to WAIT for the 'right' one.........because waiting for someone who will
love you for who you are and not for who they want you to be is worth more
then all the gold in the world.

[shiningstar]

Oh by the way .........I didn't bond 'physically' with a guy until I was 31 ..............and yes
when I finally did ................he already was my husband to be ...............{of 11 years so far
actually ;)}

I have no regrets waiting so long to be with someone.

[Antelope]

I think TV likes the chase of romance and often they confuse it for sex. Marriage and the happiness that goes with it, like watching your little kids grow up is just too boring for the one hour show. I think that is why everyone loves I dream of Jeanie...until they are married, the Nanny...until they are married, Who's the Boss...until they are married.

The story of Apollo and Serena was the same way. It was a beautiful romance of an educated woman by a caring noble military officer but once they were married for a few episodes they put a lasar shot in Serena's back, starting clearing Boxey from the script, and sent doe eyed Sheba to cry on Apollo.

I watch Charmed with my wife. They spent a long time romancing and marrying two of the witches (Phoebe and Piper) but it didn't take them long afterwards to kill the one husband and banish the second.

Maybe we should cheer for a quick marriage of Lee and Kara. Then Kara might get her lasar in the back sooner rather than later!
:D

[shiningstar]

I think TV likes the chase of romance and often they confuse it for sex. Marriage and the happiness that goes with it, like watching your little kids grow up is just too boring for the one hour show. I think that is why everyone loves I dream of Jeanie...until they are married, the Nanny...until they are married, Who's the Boss...until they are married.

The story of Apollo and Serena was the same way. It was a beautiful romance of an educated woman by a caring noble military officer but once they were married for a few episodes they put a lasar shot in Serena's back, starting clearing Boxey from the script, and sent doe eyed Sheba to cry on Apollo.

I watch Charmed with my wife. They spent a long time romancing and marrying two of the witches (Phoebe and Piper) but it didn't take them long afterwards to kill the one husband and banish the second.

Maybe we should cheer for a quick marriage of Lee and Kara. Then Kara might get her lasar in the back before sooner rather than later!
:D

I thought you 'liked' Kara Thrace.

[Rowan]

ouch antelope poor old Starbuck thanks fo the laugh though. it's true its the tease that works best on tv.

Shinigstar you warm my heart with your story. But i'm saying I'm not the kind of girl who can wait, I don't want to wait, I like that part and need that part of life too much to give it up. :)

[Antelope]

I thought you 'liked' Kara Thrace.

I like the mini but I wasn't very thrilled with the Kara Thrace character. In her defense I also did not like the Sheba character in TOS when they first introduced her. They were both arrogant and trying too hard to act like a man.

In the case of Sheba they toned her down very quickly and her character a few episodes later was nothing like the Sheba of Living Legend. In the later episodes she would easily cry and seemed a bit weak and dependent on Apollo.

I hope they tone down Kara Thrace rapidly also. Her part when thinking about Zak and Apollo almost redeemed her. Just when I was finally warming up to her however she had that unneeded scene with COL Tigh near the end.

I think Kara Thrace has a lot of potential to either become a good character or conversely to destroy the series. I am hoping for the best. My brother in England just saw the mini recently. I asked him the other day what he thought about it. All he could say was "I couldn't stand that Starbuck girl."

[Dawg]

My brother in England just saw the mini recently. I asked him the other day what he thought about it. All he could say was "I couldn't stand that Starbuck girl."

I see your family is not entirely bereft of taste....

:wtf: :eek: :wtf:

*Did I say that out loud?*

:confused: :/: :uhdrop: :blink: :duck:

:laugh: :devil: :blush: :laugh: :laugh:

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Antelope]

I see your family is not entirely bereft of taste....

:wtf: :eek: :wtf:

*Did I say that out loud?*

:confused: :/: :uhdrop: :blink: :duck:

:laugh: :devil: :blush: :laugh: :laugh:

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

You make me laugh! I don't know whether I should laugh or cry.
:D :cry:

[shiningstar]

ouch antelope poor old Starbuck thanks fo the laugh though. it's true its the tease that works best on tv.

Shinigstar you warm my heart with your story. But i'm saying I'm not the kind of girl who can wait, I don't want to wait, I like that part and need that part of life too much to give it up. :)

Enjoy then ;)

[shiningstar]

I see your family is not entirely bereft of taste....

:wtf: :eek: :wtf:

*Did I say that out loud?*

:confused: :/: :uhdrop: :blink: :duck:

:laugh: :devil: :blush: :laugh: :laugh:

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[shiningstar]

You make me laugh! I don't know whether I should laugh or cry.
:D :cry:


He was teasing Antelope ;)

[unowhoandwhy]

Love the Avatar is that a German short hair pointer?


Yes, it is a GSP. That's my Daniel Yankee Flyer (Daniel, Danny, Little Ba$!@rd depending on what he's doing at the moment), one and a half years old and the best dog ever. (My former couch, former cell phone, former slippers, former pillows. etc. probably wouldn't agree on that, though!)


And who knew that I would miss a good debate on marriage while I was offline for the weekend? Between my two parents I had to live through seven marriages and five divorces before I was 25, so I am extremely cautious about the whole institution. I would like to get married and have kids someday (I am only 31), but I won't get married just because that is what people expect of me. I'd like to marry completely for love and if I have to wait (and I've been waiting a while now) I would like to spend that time with men who I like and respect and am physically attracted to. Which hasn't happened in about four years, but I am looking for "Mr. Right" and not "Mr. Right Now" so that's OK. A little lonely, but OK.

[shiningstar]

Yes, it is a GSP. That's my Daniel Yankee Flyer (Daniel, Danny, Little Ba$!@rd depending on what he's doing at the moment), one and a half years old and the best dog ever. (My former couch, former cell phone, former slippers, former pillows. etc. probably wouldn't agree on that, though!)


And who knew that I would miss a good debate on marriage while I was offline for the weekend? Between my two parents I had to live through seven marriages and five divorces before I was 25, so I am extremely cautious about the whole institution. I would like to get married and have kids someday (I am only 31), but I won't get married just because that is what people expect of me. I'd like to marry completely for love and if I have to wait (and I've been waiting a while now) I would like to spend that time with men who I like and respect and am physically attracted to. Which hasn't happened in about four years, but I am looking for "Mr. Right" and not "Mr. Right Now" so that's OK. A little lonely, but OK.

It's a beautiful dog.

I think you're doing the right thing in waiting for Mr. RIght and not rushing
out for Mr. RIghtnow. Somethings are worth waiting for. I know I'm glad I
did.

[CrysWimmer]

[size=2]]Ah my favourite subject… I very much agree with Dawg, the scene can’t just be plunked down for the sake of throwing in a sex scene then it just bores me. I do like the occasional very romantic and sweet scene but only in a movie it would bore me if it was a week to week occurrence. In a week to week programme I love tension filled, but I don’t want the will they won’t they stuff either. I never want the pair to be married or engaged, makes it too safe for me (I know in reality it’s different).

Let me preface this by saying it's ONLY my opinion, and not intended to offend anyone...

Hmmm.. interesting question. Frankly, I need the romance more than the sex. Example in point - that first clinch between Boomer and Tyrol - honestly, it was useless. They took out the explanation of it being fraternization and its involvement with the plot from that end, so it just seemed... well, useless.

Now... when Boomer comes back - and you've had those few subtle lines like when Kara asks about Sharon - suddenly this reunion isn't about sex. The second clinch is actually much less intense then the first: clothes stay on, folks are watching, pretty innocent kisses compared to earlier. But as far as.... importance. There's no contest. Here you have a relationship - not just sex. That makes it different. I could watch that scene over and over (and have) because of that chemistry... well, that and Tyrol's sweet smile before that last kiss...

Then we have Lee and Kara - nothing sexual there. Well, nothing mentioned (he does have trouble keeping his eyes at eye-level, but maybe that's my interpretation). Anyway, the scenes between the two of them fascinate me, and they barely touch, much less kiss. Hell, half the time they're ready to brawl <g>. The characters hae chemistry though - they work well together. Even if there's never anything romantic there, the relationship of the characters has my interest.

I loved many of the shows y'all have mentioned, and many others, that relied on sexual tension based on friendship (or antagonism, they're pretty close sometimes) - Moonlighting and Beauty and the Beast... but also Scarecrow and Mrs. King, Lois and Clark and many many others. What I like had nothing to do with the sex... mostly nothing to do with the romance... it was the RELATIONSHIP that fascinated me. Still does.

I've written loads of fanfic - in many different fandoms - and while some of it is more "explicit" than the rest, all of it is relationship based. If that's romantic, then fine. But sex for the sake of sex.... sorry, that's just porn, and I can do without. I found no meaning at all in the Baltar/Six scenes. I fast forward them every time <g>. There's no point. Just... no point. At least not for me.

-Crys-

[shiningstar]

Let me preface this by saying it's ONLY my opinion, and not intended to offend anyone...

Hmmm.. interesting question. Frankly, I need the romance more than the sex. Example in point - that first clinch between Boomer and Tyrol - honestly, it was useless. They took out the explanation of it being fraternization and its involvement with the plot from that end, so it just seemed... well, useless.

Now... when Boomer comes back - and you've had those few subtle lines like when Kara asks about Sharon - suddenly this reunion isn't about sex. The second clinch is actually much less intense then the first: clothes stay on, folks are watching, pretty innocent kisses compared to earlier. But as far as.... importance. There's no contest. Here you have a relationship - not just sex. That makes it different. I could watch that scene over and over (and have) because of that chemistry... well, that and Tyrol's sweet smile before that last kiss...

Then we have Lee and Kara - nothing sexual there. Well, nothing mentioned (he does have trouble keeping his eyes at eye-level, but maybe that's my interpretation). Anyway, the scenes between the two of them fascinate me, and they barely touch, much less kiss. Hell, half the time they're ready to brawl <g>. The characters hae chemistry though - they work well together. Even if there's never anything romantic there, the relationship of the characters has my interest.

I loved many of the shows y'all have mentioned, and many others, that relied on sexual tension based on friendship (or antagonism, they're pretty close sometimes) - Moonlighting and Beauty and the Beast... but also Scarecrow and Mrs. King, Lois and Clark and many many others. What I like had nothing to do with the sex... mostly nothing to do with the romance... it was the RELATIONSHIP that fascinated me. Still does.

I've written loads of fanfic - in many different fandoms - and while some of it is more "explicit" than the rest, all of it is relationship based. If that's romantic, then fine. But sex for the sake of sex.... sorry, that's just porn, and I can do without. I found no meaning at all in the Baltar/Six scenes. I fast forward them every time <g>. There's no point. Just... no point. At least not for me.

-Crys-

Nice points and I've read your fanfic. Not bad at all.

[N~still]

Actually my past relationships are painful and i don't like to speak of them in an open forum..... I did learn through trial and error exactly what you guys have said. I was incredibly adaptable to my partners; i could always relate and empathize with parts of them but we never jived the the whole outlook and future thing and that is vital. Love and the intimacy of sex will take you into wonderland but one day the ruby slippers will slip off and you wil be back in Kansas again. it's best to be with someone you want to be with when that happens and it's best to be the person you are authetically when that happens also; so don't adapt to a man... find one that is congruent and jives with you now and will 10 yrs into the future.

The clock is ticking? Bah! new medical breathroughs are pushing that back.... be sure of the man first and that takes time.

[shiningstar]

Actually my past relationships are painful and i don't like to speak of them in an open forum..... I did learn through trial and error exactly what you guys have said. I was incredibly adaptable to my partners; i could always relate and empathize with parts of them but we never jived the the whole outlook and future thing and that is vital. Love and the intimacy of sex will take you into wonderland but one day the ruby slippers will slip off and you wil be back in Kansas again. it's best to be with someone you want to be with when that happens and it's best to be the person you are authetically when that happens also; so don't adapt to a man... find one that is congruent and jives with you now and will 10 yrs into the future.

The clock is ticking? Bah! new medical breathroughs are pushing that back.... be sure of the man first and that takes time.

I do understand N~still. I dated alot of guys ........although ...........dating
was the extent of it. I remained friends with all the guys I dated with the
exception of ONE ...........I prefer to call him PSYCHOGUY ..............

He tried to act like he owned me and I dumped him after 3 dates. The next
thing I knew he was stalking me and has been since 1989. :eek:

I know you'll find your significant other .......If I can after dating PSYCHOGUY
....................ANYONE can.

[Antelope]

The clock is ticking? Bah! new medical breathroughs are pushing that back.... be sure of the man first and that takes time.

Unfortunately that clock is ticking!

Science is great but the reality is that the window for female child birth closes dramatically after 30 and is shut for most by the low 40's.

On top of that for us guys a lot of the fun physical stuff you like to do with our kids becomes much harder to do as we get older. I have a 7 year old and a two year old and can tell I can't do many things as long with my 2 year old. Thank God I am 36 not 46.

If you have any desire to spend time with your Grandkids one day you better have those kids while your young. If you wait to 35 to have kids and so does your daughter you will be lucky to have any quality time with your grandkids.

It's just my opinion but I think society puts too much pressure on people not to commit and find their love when they are young. I met my wonderful wife when I was 16 and married her at 22. I don't think I ever met as many wonderful women as I did in High School and more importantly college. My single friends who were out of college saw the women in their lives at work etc. dramatically shrink and most of the "good" ones soon married.

I remember a lot of nice woman when I was in my low 20s. Now all the nice women I know are married to my friends! My single guy friends have a hard time and it seems even worse for the few single women I know.

Good luck and as President Roslin says, Go make some babies! Humanity still depends on it!

[CrysWimmer]

My sentiment... ignore the clock. I got married at 18, had my first child at 19 - and guess what... not an average kid. He's 16 now, and my husband and I are still together (and yes, still very much in love) but I missed a hell of a lot. When other women were dating, I was sitting in PICU with a kid on a ventilator - when my friends were in school, I was getting braces, dealing with hearing aides, and trying to get money for wheelchairs - when my friends were going out to fancy dinners, I was learning what Autism is - and isn't - and just how hard it is to manage when you have a special needs child.

Would I trade it... Hell no! I love my husband, both my boys - but around 30 it hit me that I never DID anything. I graduated HS, went into the AF, got married and had Romie... and then I was a mom. Since then I've gotten a degree, and I teach Autistic kids - but my husband and I never DID stuff... we didn't go to concerts, we don't go out to dinner, we never went dancing... we were too busy raising our kids. It's important - and I love it - but I kinda wish I'd been a me for awhile before I became a wife and mom.

[shiningstar]

I was 35 when I had my oldest child and 36.5 when I had My youngest ..............
like I said before ........I'm glad I waited. I think waiting for the right
guy and WAITING until I was MENTALLY ready to raise a child made me
a better parent.

[Rowan]

Well I ignored the clock, thought I had all the time in the world after all I thought I'm inteligent, caring, hardworking and attractive I won't have any touble finding someone when I'm ready. So I went dancing...a lot, love to dance! had many loves and did many fun things (not all the fun things I would have liked to but) and was totaly free. I just turned 40 a few weeks ago. I would give anything to be someones mom and yes I know there is adoption and it's definitly a consideration but I wanted to experience giving birth at least once, and I would give anything to have found the right man, but frankly I've never met my match, (don't know what I'm supposed to do about that) antelopes right about how didfficult it is to find someone once you get older , school is really the best place, but now all my school mates are 20 years my junior ;)

[kat]

Sex is ok but I think the build up and romance of the story interests me far more.

[shiningstar]

Unfortunately that clock is ticking!

Science is great but the reality is that the window for female child birth closes dramatically after 30 and is shut for most by the low 40's.

On top of that for us guys a lot of the fun physical stuff you like to do with our kids becomes much harder to do as we get older. I have a 7 year old and a two year old and can tell I can't do many things as long with my 2 year old. Thank God I am 36 not 46.

If you have any desire to spend time with your Grandkids one day you better have those kids while your young. If you wait to 35 to have kids and so does your daughter you will be lucky to have any quality time with your grandkids.

It's just my opinion but I think society puts too much pressure on people not to commit and find their love when they are young. I met my wonderful wife when I was 16 and married her at 22. I don't think I ever met as many wonderful women as I did in High School and more importantly college. My single friends who were out of college saw the women in their lives at work etc. dramatically shrink and most of the "good" ones soon married.

I remember a lot of nice woman when I was in my low 20s. Now all the nice women I know are married to my friends! My single guy friends have a hard time and it seems even worse for the few single women I know.

Good luck and as President Roslin says, Go make some babies! Humanity still depends on it!

In my case ........I'd rather my children WAIT until they are MATURE enough
to handle the responsibility of children before they have any theirselves.

That way I may have 'less' time with them but they will have parents who
are ready and willing to give them the type of upbringing that will turn my
grandchildren into productive and HAPPY adults.

And as for President Roslin's Quote ...............TOO many single mothers
have been churning out babies without any thought as to whether
they could MENTALLY or FINANCIALLY raise them.

That's another reason I didn't like the mini ............... quotes like that
send the wrong message.

[shiningstar]

My sentiment... ignore the clock. I got married at 18, had my first child at 19 - and guess what... not an average kid. He's 16 now, and my husband and I are still together (and yes, still very much in love) but I missed a hell of a lot. When other women were dating, I was sitting in PICU with a kid on a ventilator - when my friends were in school, I was getting braces, dealing with hearing aides, and trying to get money for wheelchairs - when my friends were going out to fancy dinners, I was learning what Autism is - and isn't - and just how hard it is to manage when you have a special needs child.

Would I trade it... Hell no! I love my husband, both my boys - but around 30 it hit me that I never DID anything. I graduated HS, went into the AF, got married and had Romie... and then I was a mom. Since then I've gotten a degree, and I teach Autistic kids - but my husband and I never DID stuff... we didn't go to concerts, we don't go out to dinner, we never went dancing... we were too busy raising our kids. It's important - and I love it - but I kinda wish I'd been a me for awhile before I became a wife and mom.

That's great CrysWimmer ................I'm glad you and your husband are
still together............ and I'm glad that both of your sons are doing so well.
That speaks volumes as to how strong of a person you are and what a
great wife you are to your husband, and what a wonderful mom you are to
your kids.

[Muffit]

Sex is ok but I think the build up and romance of the story interests me far more.

Welcome to Colonial Fleets Kat! :)
:muffit:

[shiningstar]

Sex is ok but I think the build up and romance of the story interests me far more.

Well said kat!

By the way welcome to the colonial fleets :thumbsup: :warrior:

[Antelope]

By the time I was 24 I had lived in or been to 18 countries, fought in a war, and was married. I had the travel and adventure but it all never compares to seeing the birth of your kids, reading them stories at night, seeing them grow, watching and coaching them in sports, and all the various things kids do.

My advice: Don't be scared to fall in love in college. Marry your college sweetheart. Wait a couple years to make sure your happy together. After 2-3 years of marriage start to have kids. This will put your first kid around the age of 26. By then you should be a bit grown up. You hopefully had a couple exotic vacations together. You went through the stress of everyday living. If your spouse is a loser you didn't have a kid with them so its still early to start over with NO BAGGAGE (previous kids scare away good men!).

For those who had kids early: Look forward to your vacations in retirement while your still young! At least you won't need a walker to see Big Ben when you finally get to England. If you have kids near 40 they won't be leaving the house till you're near 60.

Good luck to all out there. When I go home tonight I look forward to acting like a bucking bronco for a special two year old boy at home, my son! I will also be helping my seven year old daughter do her homework. Later she'll read to me before she goes to bed.

[shiningstar]

Before I ever met my husband ..........I was already living on my own and had been
for a couple of years. I was already serving in the military as my brother, father,
mother and grandfather along with several, and I do mean SEVERAL other relatives
before me, and I was already a published author (poetry that is) inspite of the fact
that I was told early on that I would be a retard and was not capable of leading
a life of my own.

I have no regrets for waiting for the right person. Waiting for my husband was
the best gift I could have given to myself. For one thing, unlike my friends I did
not put myself at risk for getting sexually transmitted diseases. Some of my
friends caught a few of those. And unfortunately paid for their 'mistake' with
their lives. For another, I didn't waste my time on people who did not respect
me as a person. I waited because I wanted to make certain beyond any
shadow of a doubt that I would be with someone who loved and cared for
me the same way I loved and cared for him.

Is my life OVER because I WAITED until I was 35 to have a child? NO. MY
marriage is secure, and strong. My children are secure in knowing the only
thing they have to worry about is who gets to love them the most. Even though
:eek: I am now 43 years old I am hiking, swimming, playing sports. My life
is hardly over. In fact for me .........my life has BARELY begun. Instead of thinking
how old I am ..........I think of how MUCH I have to live for.

I thank God for each and every day that God put me on this earth. I thank him
daily for all the gifts he has given me ......starting with my husband and children.

I know many, many people who laughed at me because I waited so long before
I was EVER with a man. THey're not laughing anymore. Now ........they understand
why I waited for someone who respected me as a person. .... even if they don't
necessarily agree with it.

[Antelope]

I thank God for each and every day that God put me on this earth. I thank him
daily for all the gifts he has given me ......starting with my husband and children.

.

I am with you 100%! :)

[shiningstar]

I am with you 100%! :)

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[Rowan]

My advice: Don't be scared to fall in love in college. Marry your college sweetheart. Wait a couple years to make sure your happy together. After 2-3 years of marriage start to have kids. This will put your first kid around the age of 26. By then you should be a bit grown up. You hopefully had a couple exotic vacations together. You went through the stress of everyday living. If your spouse is a loser you didn't have a kid with them so its still early to start over with NO BAGGAGE (previous kids scare away good men!).

I spent 7 years with my college sweetheart. I was responsible and did not have kids because as it turned out and gradually became apparent he was a mess. I was 28 when I ended it, youg enough to start over, plenty of time ...I thought.
It's because I believed the stament above"previous kids scare away good men" That I've been diligent with birth control until I met the right man but recently I wish I had had them anyways and I'm well aware this is most definitely not the ideal for a child but I can't help how I feal and when I see all my friends with kids and read what shiningstar , crys, and antelope say about their kids it just hurts, because I long for it so much, you are all so unbelievably lucky!:)

[Muffit]

Don't worry Gaelen... all good things come in time. I'm certain you will get your wish soon and it will be the right time for you.

Once not long ago I thought I would never have children. Each week shopping hurt SO MUCH as I walked down the baby stuff aisle... seeing all the diapers and little jars of food...Always had to fight back the tears.

Now I have my dream of a little girl, and couldn't be happier things worked out in the end.

Your time will come, really it will. Just keep the faith and believe in yourself.

Affectionately,
Muffit
:muffit:

[CrysWimmer]

I spent 7 years with my college sweetheart. I was responsible and did not have kids because as it turned out and gradually became apparent he was a loser. I was 28 when I ended it, youg enough to start over, plenty of time ...I thought.
It's because I believed the stament above"previous kids scare away good men" That I've been diligent with birth control until I met the right man but recently I wish I had had them anyways and I'm well aware this is most definitely not the ideal for a child but I can't help how I feal and when I see all my friends with kids and read what shiningstar , crys, and antelope say about there kids it just hurts, because I long for it so much, you are all so unbelievably lucky!:)

You're right... I am lucky, and it takes my job to remind me of it some days. My oldest is 16 - with Down syndrome, Epilepsy, Autism, Neural Deafness, Heart problems, Neurological problems, Orthopedic problems... and believe it or not I think God for him every day. He's a good kid... and I don't have to worry about the wrong crowd at school, getting him a car, or who his girlfriend is <g>.

My youngest is just this side of brilliant, completely socially inept, and a severe end ADHD (with emphesis on the hyperactivity and impulsivity). I've been to the principal's office 3 times in 3 weeks, and while he has As and Bs in academics, he has more Not satisfactories than Satisfactories in Behaviour and Citizenship. Oh well... he's a good kid... I think <g>.

I wanted eight children. I wanted to marry a doctor, have a big house, and just be a mom. Life didnt work out that way, but we take what we have. I wound up teaching kids with problems far more severe than what my kids manage, and I love it. Maybe that could be a partial solution for you... volunteer in your church nursery, spend time at a daycare... do something to work with kids. It's not the same... not at all... but it helps fill the hole some days.

I would have loved to have had a little girl, but after chasing pony-tail clips on one of my students for the last two years... y'know, I'm glad she's someone else's <g>.

::hugs::

[shiningstar]

I spent 7 years with my college sweetheart. I was responsible and did not have kids because as it turned out and gradually became apparent he was a loser. I was 28 when I ended it, youg enough to start over, plenty of time ...I thought.
It's because I believed the stament above"previous kids scare away good men" That I've been diligent with birth control until I met the right man but recently I wish I had had them anyways and I'm well aware this is most definitely not the ideal for a child but I can't help how I feal and when I see all my friends with kids and read what shiningstar , crys, and antelope say about there kids it just hurts, because I long for it so much, you are all so unbelievably lucky!:)

It's not too late for you to have kids Gaelen. It's never too late.
I'm just glad I waited. Unfortunately ...........or fortunately I wasn't ready to
have kids when I was in my 20's. You're still young ...........when you're
ready to have kids ............. you will.

[shiningstar]

Read Muffit's post to you ..........she's right you know. :rose:

[Rowan]

Thanks guys somedays are really hard! I think I must have felt low that day. I appreciate all your kind words, sensitivity and support. :love:
But Crys holly cow! I had no Idea, that is quite the challenge. I always wanted to have 8 kids too, 4 boys and 4 girls. I come from a family that has many kids. My great grandmother raised 26, my grandmother raised 16 ,I have 67 first cousins on my fathers side alone. As for working around kids it's very painful for me right now to be around them I crave it and I dread it. I get along like gangbusters with kids, just a big kid at heart. If I go to a party you won't find me with the adults. But most of the time the longing is so intense and profound I usulally don't deliberately seek out their company.:)

Thanks guys :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose:

[shiningstar]

Thanks guys somedays are really hard! I think I must have felt low that day. I appreciate all your kind words, sensitivity and support. :love:
But Crys holly cow! I had no Idea, that is quite the challenge. I always wanted to have 8 kids too, 4 boys and 4 girls. I come from a family that has many kids. My great grandmother raised 26, my grandmother raised 16 ,I have 67 first cousins on my fathers side alone. As for working around kids it's very painful for me right now to be around them I crave it and I dread it. I get along like gangbusters with kids, just a big kid at heart. If I go to a party you won't find me with the adults. But most of the time the longing is so intense and profound I usulally don't deliberately seek out their company.:)

Thanks guys :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose:

(((((((((((((((GAELEN))))))))))))))))))

Just hang in there. When you are ready for kids it will happen.

I remember when we started to 'try' for kids a couple of years after
we were married. I was the same way. :rose:

I had been afraid that it would never happen when I wasn't pregnate
a year after we started trying .................. but it did 'happen' for me;
and it WILL happen for you :rose: :heart: :love: :heart: :rose:

[unowhoandwhy]

Thanks guys somedays are really hard!

Gaelen, I certainly know how you feel. I'm 31 and have finally (in the past year or so) decided that I would like to settle down with a nice guy and have a child or two. Now I just have to ffind the nice guy, which is a more difficult task than I thought.

Until then, I will have a little niece or nephew to spoil this Septwember (which might be more fun as I can spoil him or her and then return him or her when she is bad! Hey, my aunts did it with me, that's what aunties are for!) My sister (half sister, actually, we have the same mother, but we are very close even though we grew up in separate homes) just found out a few weeks ago and we are all so excited because it will be the first child born in my mother's family since my cousin was born 16 years ago!

As for waiting till you're older, that's a personal choice. Everyone is ready at a different time. My mother was shocked discover at the age of 17 that it really did only take just one time to get pregnant. We ended up raising each other, which is not a healthy thing. We are close now, but it was a long and hard road to that place and I swore I would never do that to a child.

But, 'nuff about me. It's funny, we were having the same "I can't find any nice men/women with similar interests" discussion on a Star Trek list I belong to just last week! Maybe us singletons should start a SciFi singles Yahoo group and commiserate with each other!

[shiningstar]

Gaelen, I certainly know how you feel. I'm 31 and have finally (in the past year or so) decided that I would like to settle down with a nice guy and have a child or two. Now I just have to ffind the nice guy, which is a more difficult task than I thought.

Until then, I will have a little niece or nephew to spoil this Septwember (which might be more fun as I can spoil him or her and then return him or her when she is bad! Hey, my aunts did it with me, that's what aunties are for!) My sister (half sister, actually, we have the same mother, but we are very close even though we grew up in separate homes) just found out a few weeks ago and we are all so excited because it will be the first child born in my mother's family since my cousin was born 16 years ago!

As for waiting till you're older, that's a personal choice. Everyone is ready at a different time. My mother was shocked discover at the age of 17 that it really did only take just one time to get pregnant. We ended up raising each other, which is not a healthy thing. We are close now, but it was a long and hard road to that place and I swore I would never do that to a child.

But, 'nuff about me. It's funny, we were having the same "I can't find any nice men/women with similar interests" discussion on a Star Trek list I belong to just last week! Maybe us singletons should start a SciFi singles Yahoo group and commiserate with each other!

I think that you have alot of character .............. I think the singles scifi group is
a good Idea :thumbsup:

By the way you are right .................waiting or not waiting till you're older to
have a child is a personal choice. :warrior:

[shiningstar]

Waiting or not waiting to have a child is a choice only YOU can make.
People can tell you what they think .........but in the end that choice
belongs to YOU and you alone. :rose: