Starbuck "killed" Zak

[Antelope]

It's funny how sometimes you need to read someone elses writing to see the obvious. On cylon.org in the Battlestar Galactica article section entitiled "Battlestar Galactica Rant", a good article comparing doing a continuation versus the mini I came across the issue of Starbuck's guilt for Zak's death.

Even though I remember from TOS that Zak pulled the patrol at the armistice site because Starbuck played sick it didn't dawn on me that there was a plot line in both Saga of A Star World and the mini that Starbuck felt guilty about having caused the death of Zak in both versions. I guess although it was there in TOS it was glossed over pretty rapidly and never mentioned in a future episode. In the mini it is a key point of the relationship between Starbuck, Apollo, and Adama.

At least in my mind mind I find this very interesting and a very good character development point in the Moore version that escaped me when I watched TOS.

[Dawg]

Only if you're fond of emotionally crippled characters, antelope.

In TOS, Zac and Starbuck conspired to allow Zac a shot at that patrol - a perfectly safe situation, given the armistace, a patrol in name only. Zac was fresh out of the Academy, eager as hell. Remember the exchange between Apollo and Starbuck, right after Apollo sent Zac off to get ready?

Of course, Starbuck felt guilty, and it was a recurring theme. Apollo felt guiltier for having to leave Zac to the tender mercies of the Cylons.

In the mini, lovestruck Stardoe passed her boyfriend when she should have grounded him, he got killed as a result, then she let Lee and Bill fight (for how long?) over it. Only when it looked like they were all going to die did she let him in on her little secret.

Gag me with a spoon.

(Sorry - I've been waiting to use that line for years.) ;)

There really isn't much comparison between the two. Remember, the RDM BSG is really "In Harms Way". Right? ;) :D

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Antelope]

I never noticed Starbuck was feeling guility about the Zak situation in TOS. I am sure as any person in his situation he was. I just never saw it in the script.

When Zak was killed in TOS just short of the fleet and Adama tells the President, "That was my son." and then Apollo appears and says something to the effect that he needs to go back out and help Zak not knowing it is too late, those two scenes are probably the most emotionally gripping in Galactica anywhere.

Something good or interesting in the mini does not mean it detracts from TOS.

If you ever watch the movie Gallipoli with Mel Gibson you can see a great example of the same theme of a friend letting someone do something either they are not qualified to do or something someone else is more qualified to do resulting in the death of someone. In the case of Gallipoli the entire Australian unit is killed including the person who did the favor.

Some plot points in the mini are good in their own right.

We don't know everything that brought Commander Adama and Lee to blows in the mini and if the death of Zak was a final straw or the one and only event. We also don't know if Starbuck had told Lee or anyone what she did earlier if it would have ended her military career. I don't think that is an issue in her mind anymore. This story has some deep issues if you are willing to look at them. Is Starbucks comabative nature a result of Zak's death? She may not feel worthy of being a warrior and is unconsciously trying to destroy her career. Telling Lee may have lifted a burden off her soul that allows her character to calm down. Only the series will give us the answers.

[Antelope]

True story:

During World War II my grandfather (on my father's side) served in the Navy on an LST (a troop and equipment amphibious landing ship). He participated in the D-Day Invasion taking British troops ashore on Sword beach.

When his LST was at port in England one evening my Grandfather had duty on the deck of the ship. His relief couldn't sleep well so he relieved my grandfather early. As my Grandfather went down below a V-1 missile fell from the sky and struck his ship in port. His ship sunk in port. Seven men were killed including the man who relieved my Grandfather early.

Sometimes you think you are doing people a favor and the law of unintended consequences takes a horrible twist.

I am eternally greatful to that individual for his service to our country. His selfless act unintentional saved my grandfather and cost him his life.

[Rowan]

Oh Dawg I love it, Stardoe! that's too funny!
antelope526 I agree with you about the potential for very good charachter development with those 3.
and yes Dawg you make a very good point. I was not impressed that she had created this terible rift between father and son by not telling Lee sooner. what irony and betrayal all this time Lee has been angry with the wrong person and friends with the person responsible. how do you get past that?!

[thomas7g]

I don't think Zac weighed as much on Starbucks soul in the original series cause Starbuck just lived through the cylon assault on the fleet. Presumably he saw quite a few battlestars and alot of people die on a rather large scale. So he saw alot of death. And I don't think he was focusing on Zac so much as losing the fleet.

Zac's death was a key ingredient as to why Apollo was such a tragically noble character. He was constantly hit by loss. First he has to chose between his brother and the fleet, then he finds his mom died. Then he loses Serina. But he still is an incredibly good person. I think that is what makes Apollo such an engaging character.

:)

[shiningstar]

Only if you're fond of emotionally crippled characters, antelope.

In TOS, Zac and Starbuck conspired to allow Zac a shot at that patrol - a perfectly safe situation, given the armistace, a patrol in name only. Zac was fresh out of the Academy, eager as hell. Remember the exchange between Apollo and Starbuck, right after Apollo sent Zac off to get ready?

Of course, Starbuck felt guilty, and it was a recurring theme. Apollo felt guiltier for having to leave Zac to the tender mercies of the Cylons.

In the mini, lovestruck Stardoe passed her boyfriend when she should have grounded him, he got killed as a result, then she let Lee and Bill fight (for how long?) over it. Only when it looked like they were all going to die did she let him in on her little secret.

Gag me with a spoon.

(Sorry - I've been waiting to use that line for years.) ;)

There really isn't much comparison between the two. Remember, the RDM BSG is really "In Harms Way". Right? ;) :D

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

Dawg is right. In TOS Starbuck had no 'reason' to fill 'guilty' about anything.
In TOS Zac didn't die because of his inability to fly. He was killed because
his viper couldn't make it to the landing bay quick enough. And it was hard
enough flying a 'damaged' viper.

In TOS ........... Zac had higher scores then even his own father and even
though it was his 'first' patrol there were no doubts that he could pull
his own weight.

In the 'mini' ...........Zac should never have been in the air and Starbuck/kara
had no business 'passing' him when he in fact 'failed'.

In Tos .........while Starbuck was a womanizer he never knowingly put his
other warriors in harms way. He was a strong character if a bit over confident
at times.

[shiningstar]

I don't think Zac weighed as much on Starbucks soul in the original series cause Starbuck just lived through the cylon assault on the fleet. Presumably he saw quite a few battlestars and alot of people die on a rather large scale. So he saw alot of death. And I don't think he was focusing on Zac so much as losing the fleet.

Zac's death was a key ingredient as to why Apollo was such a tragically noble character. He was constantly hit by loss. First he has to chose between his brother and the fleet, then he finds his mom died. Then he loses Serina. But he still is an incredibly good person. I think that is what makes Apollo such an engaging character.

:)


I think you are so right. I also think that his being a great father to Boxey
a son only by marriage also did much to endure him to the fans.

[Antelope]

Good post thomas7g.

Once again I am not putting down TOS. I just didn't realize that the point of Zaks death relative to Starbuck in the mini was an attempt by Moore to look deeper into the issue of guilt felt by someone when they unintentional harm a loved one. Moore believed the issue was raised but not pursued deeply in TOS. It is an interesting aspect of the new series. The fact that this mini concept comes from TOS also shows that at least in some small part Moore is looking at TOS for inspiration.

[Dawg]

I realized I mis-spoke about Starbuck's "guilt" over Zac's death (I was remembering a scene he was referring to Boxey and misremembered the line), but my point was that he had nothing to feel guilty about. The impact on Apollo was greater because he had to leave Zac behind as they tried to warn the fleet.

Again, I have to disagree, antelope, about what you said about Moore looking to TOS for inspiration on this issue. In TOS, there is good natured bantering, conspiring to get qualified-but-green Zac on a Viper patrol when there isn't supposed to be danger. There would have been a lot of "if only" guilt, but they all would have come to the realization that there was nothing to feel guilty about.

On the other hand, Stardoe directly caused Zack's death by her action of passing him despite the fact he was unqualified. Compound that by her selfishly keeping that little fact to herself, which made Zack's death a major point of contention between Lee and his father.

(Also, TOS Zac was an excellent pilot, as witnessed by his outscoring his grandfather, Adama, at the Academy. Mini Zack was a screw-up.)

So, as far as this story point is concerned, there is absolutely no point of similarity between the mini and TOS, except for a character named "Zac" or "Zack" (depending on whether he was from the US or Caprica) died.

So I seriously doubt there was much inspiration from TOS on RDM's part.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[shiningstar]

I realized I mis-spoke about Starbuck's "guilt" over Zac's death (I was remembering a scene he was referring to Boxey and misremembered the line), but my point was that he had nothing to feel guilty about. The impact on Apollo was greater because he had to leave Zac behind as they tried to warn the fleet.

Again, I have to disagree, antelope, about what you said about Moore looking to TOS for inspiration on this issue. In TOS, there is good natured bantering, conspiring to get qualified-but-green Zac on a Viper patrol when there isn't supposed to be danger. There would have been a lot of "if only" guilt, but they all would have come to the realization that there was nothing to feel guilty about.

On the other hand, Stardoe directly caused Zack's death by her action of passing him despite the fact he was unqualified. Compound that by her selfishly keeping that little fact to herself, which made Zack's death a major point of contention between Lee and his father.

(Also, TOS Zac was an excellent pilot, as witnessed by his outscoring his grandfather, Adama, at the Academy. Mini Zack was a screw-up.)

So, as far as this story point is concerned, there is absolutely no point of similarity between the mini and TOS, except for a character named "Zac" or "Zack" (depending on whether he was from the US or Caprica) died.

So I seriously doubt there was much inspiration from TOS on RDM's part.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

Well said Dawg! And I like you telling the 'characters' apart by calling them
Starbuck and Stardoe ................. :laugh: ............nice ..........realllllllllll.........
nice! :thumbsup:

[Westy]

In TOS the Cylons killed him. To say that Starbuck killed him for trading places is like saying that his parents killed him by giving birth to him.

In the mini on the other hand, Starbuck did kill him, indirectly anyways. She didn't intend to, but by breaking rules which would have prevented it, she kill him.

[shiningstar]

In TOS the Cylons killed him. To say that Starbuck killed him for trading places is like saying that his parents killed him by giving birth to him.

In the mini on the other hand, Starbuck did kill him, indirectly anyways. She didn't intend to, but by breaking rules which would have prevented it, she kill him.

You got it right Westy thanks for you post.

[AlphaNova]

I'm not certain exactly which post you were referring to, but I do know that on CA I raised the issue of "Stardoe"/Kara being responsible for Zak getting killed because she didn't fail him during his flight training. I found it irritating that she had no sympathy for Tighe and yet felt very little guilt over allowing Zak to fly a viper when he had no business doing so. What's more, she allowed Lee to hate and blame Adama for it for years.

In TOS, Starbuck couldn't have know what was going to happen. Practically everyone other than Adama believed the long war with the Cylons was over. He thought he was doing Zak a favor by letting him fly. It's less an error of judgement than that of Kara, in my own opinion.

[The Rain]

It's funny how sometimes you need to read someone elses writing to see the obvious. On cylon.org in the Battlestar Galactica article section entitiled "Battlestar Galactica Rant", a good article comparing doing a continuation versus the mini I came across the issue of Starbuck's guilt for Zak's death.

Even though I remember from TOS that Zak pulled the patrol at the armistice site because Starbuck played sick it didn't dawn on me that there was a plot line in both Saga of A Star World and the mini that Starbuck felt guilty about having caused the death of Zak in both versions. I guess although it was there in TOS it was glossed over pretty rapidly and never mentioned in a future episode. In the mini it is a key point of the relationship between Starbuck, Apollo, and Adama.

At least in my mind mind I find this very interesting and a very good character development point in the Moore version that escaped me when I watched TOS.

Another fine example of the superior writing in the RDM version of BG.

:salute:

[Darth Marley]

But in defense of TOS, we got to see Rick Springfield vaporized!
That was a much better version of Zak's death from my point of view.
Maybe someone should put THAT clip on the web.

[thomas7g]

Another fine example of the superior writing in the RDM version of BG.

:salute:

nut.

:D

ya know... all this talk about TOS not saying enough about Zac's death just made me think of what would have been a really good subplot for an episode.

The show starts out with a zoom in toward a portal window on the side of the battlestar. We are in a darken room. No lights are on. From off camera walks in Athena carrying a small tiny candle and a dish. near a photo of Zac she places the dish, then the candle upright on top. She gently lights it.


Close up on Athena: "Happy Birthday little brother"

roll opening credits

:salute:

[The Rain]

But in defense of TOS, we got to see Rick Springfield vaporized!
That was a much better version of Zak's death from my point of view.
Maybe someone should put THAT clip on the web.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:salute:

[thomas7g]

Darth, did you ever see the outtakes on the DVD?

There was one without sound that was the longer version of that. Zac was dodging the cylons as he raced toward the battlestar landing bay. He almost got there. But the last shot was looking out the landing bay and you could see Zac's fighter exploding.

:D

[Darth Marley]

No I haven't seen that.

I would have been cheering the Cylons in that scene.

[Westy]

I wonder if in the new series there'll be an arc or something about the fact that it was Starbuck and not Adama who was responsible.....hmm...I get the feeling that RDM won't explore it though. Why is that I wonder....Apollo would have to have a big resentment toward Starbuck for what she did. RDM won't do it though.

[Rowan]

Here is a thought. What if Starbuck is attempting to deflect Apollo’s anger away from his dad and on to her in an attempt to get father and son back together? In other words what if she is lying to Apollo about what she did. After all as she puts it it’s the end of the world either of them could die any minute in combat, its obvious she really cares about the commander and this situation between father and son because she’s always bringing it up with Apollo. Maybe it's more important to her that if Apollo dies out there that Commander Adama isn’t left in pain over never having reconciled with his son.

[AlphaNova]

Gaelen, maybe but I really don't think so. It goes along with Ron's idea about giving each character their dark side, so to speak. In Kara's case, it's that she let her emotions get the better of her and wouldn't fail Zac. So he dies, then she lets Lee and Adama be angry with each other for a year or so.

Tyrol was the only guy in the show I actually liked. It's another reason why I don't want to watch this series. I'm afraid they are going to spoil his character and make him a jerk as well.

[Rowan]

it was just a thought...

I loved Tyrols charachter as well, he really impacted me emotionally

[Westy]

I bet they gloss over the resentment Apollo should have toward Starbuck....if they even confront it at all. As for Tyrol, eventually he'll learn that Boomer is/might be a Cylon, and he kills her....probably in front of Boxey.

[shiningstar]

I bet they gloss over the resentment Apollo should have toward Starbuck....if they even confront it at all. As for Tyrol, eventually he'll learn that Boomer is/might be a Cylon, and he kills her....probably in front of Boxey.

I think you're right.

[braxiss]

No I haven't seen that.

I would have been cheering the Cylons in that scene.

:thumbsup: i'm with you on this :thumbsup:

[Antelope]

Gaelen: Great thought! It shows another area where the plot of the mini may be deeper than people give it credit. Again it shows how if you don't put the mini down out of hand there is a lot to ponder.

Whenever people get cancer they blame something even though the genetic and environmental reality of life is that 33% of all people will die of cancer.

For all we know Zak died like many other novice and even experienced pilots in training. For whatever reason Zak chose to be a pilot and died. At a minimum he passed whatever initial training and education requirements the colonies had to enter flight school. Should Kara Thrace have failed him at school we don't know. We do know she feels guilty about it and at least told Lee Adama she blames herself. We also know that Lee Adama prior to his knowledge of what Kara said found it perfectly fine in his mind to blame his father for Zak's death. Whether anyone is really responsible for Zaks death we don't know. Obviously a board of inquiry did not find Kara Thrace responsible. Guilt is not a rational thing sometimes.

My own wife says she would never forgive me if my son joined the military and died in a war and gets upset when I talk positively of my military experience in front of my children. In a military family with a strong military tradition I could see a lot of unspoken pressure on a son to perform that could lead to tragedy. Many would find blame or guilt where it need not be.

The whole idea and its many ramifications is another interesting idea Moore explores in the mini and hopefully the series. I think Commander Adama and Apollo made their peace on the subject and Kara'a expression of sorrow to Lee will be enough for her to receive his unspoken forgiveness. I doubt they will revisit the issue in the series, nor do they now need to.

[Rowan]

Wow (my new nick name for you at this rate) I Love the way you explain, think and write, hope I'm not making you blush with the complements but... I love picking things apart and exploring it to this degree thanks for participating. Thanks for sharing some personal details. My mother joined the army when she was 17 1/2 (she lied about her age) during WW2, she had only good stories to tell too but then she wasn't exposed to anything either, and since she only had daughters I never felt that presure. She did though add her own kind of pressure on her kids she wanted them to get a higher education "your nothing without that piece of paper" was her favorite expresion. The fall out of that expression and pressure was huge. I dentified profoundly with the relationship between Apollo and his father, it brought back some intense feelings. That hug between them made my heart physically hurt, and tears come to my eyes. that moment when Lee is huggin his dad physically and is resisting it emotionally and then surrenders to it hard stuff to whatch for me.

I get the impression there will be a lot of unspoken emotions being expressed if that makes any sense:wtf:

[shiningstar]

Gaelen we might not always see eye to eye on all the issues but I do like having you
here. :thumbsup:

[Dawg]

I was switching channels and caught that scene, too - I thought it well done.

Certainly better than the Kirk/David hug at the end of WOK.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[shiningstar]

Gaelen: Great thought! It shows another area where the plot of the mini may be deeper than people give it credit. Again it shows how if you don't put the mini down out of hand there is a lot to ponder.

Whenever people get cancer they blame something even though the genetic and environmental reality of life is that 33% of all people will die of cancer.

For all we know Zak died like many other novice and even experienced pilots in training. For whatever reason Zak chose to be a pilot and died. At a minimum he passed whatever initial training and education requirements the colonies had to enter flight school. Should Kara Thrace have failed him at school we don't know. We do know she feels guilty about it and at least told Lee Adama she blames herself. We also know that Lee Adama prior to his knowledge of what Kara said found it perfectly fine in his mind to blame his father for Zak's death. Whether anyone is really responsible for Zaks death we don't know. Obviously a board of inquiry did not find Kara Thrace responsible. Guilt is not a rational thing sometimes.

My own wife says she would never forgive me if my son joined the military and died in a war and gets upset when I talk positively of my military experience in front of my children. In a military family with a strong military tradition I could see a lot of unspoken pressure on a son to perform that could lead to tragedy. Many would find blame or guilt where it need not be.

The whole idea and its many ramifications is another interesting idea Moore explores in the mini and hopefully the series. I think Commander Adama and Apollo made their peace on the subject and Kara'a expression of sorrow to Lee will be enough for her to receive his unspoken forgiveness. I doubt they will revisit the issue in the series, nor do they now need to.

There's not only pressure for the sons to join the military in a military family
but on the daughters as well. In my family if you didn't join ...........you were
in the same class as a draft dodger ..................... My sister resisted that
pressure While I joined before they could ever put the pressure on me.

She didn't join and was treated like scum by everyone in the family but me.
So yes the pressure for a person in the military family is HUGE .......... and you are
right in the fact that they may find guilt in areas where none actually
exists.

[Rowan]

There's not only pressure for the sons to join the military in a military family
but on the daughters as well. In my family if you didn't join ...........you were
in the same class as a draft dodger ..................... My sister resisted that
pressure While I joined before they could ever put the pressure on me.

She didn't join and was treated like scum by everyone in the family but me.
So yes the pressure for a person in the military family is HUGE .......... and you are
right in the fact that they may find guilt in areas where none actually
exists.
I imagine that since you did not treat her that way it must have been hard for you to see her put through that. I'ts very sad, hurts my heart to hear that kind of thing. Everybody has something to offer our world it doesn't always have to be the same as everyone else. I'm glad to hear she had such a nice sister:)

[Aeneas]

Starbuck DID harbor guilt about letting Zac take his place on the Cimtar patrol. ONE scene says it all: the "locker room"

STARBUCK: Zac pulled that patrol for me.

Athena: [reasurring] He wanted to go.

[Westy]

Obviously a board of inquiry did not find Kara Thrace responsible. Guilt is not a rational thing sometimes.

How is that obvious?

One of 2 things must have happened, there was either a cover up and Starbuck lied, or Apollo is brain dead and Starbuck lied.

Apollo brain dead: If a board of inquiry was formed, and there was no cover up, then somehow the deceased's own brother (Apollo) never bothered to keep track of the inquiry into his own brothers death....unlikely. Starbuck failed to tell him the truth (we all know that) and Adama for whatever reason allowed Starbuck to keep her secret(s). I really doubt Apollo would not have found out the results of the inquiry. If this scenario is right, then he's dumb as a brick.

Cover up scenario: If there was a board of inquiry, and they didn't find Starbuck liable or to blame, then her eventually admitting to Apollo that she *was* to blame implies that there was a cover up of some kind in this matter. Since Adama knew the truth, he was in on it as well. If this is correct, then Adama covered up Starbucks involvement or at least lied about it.

[shiningstar]

How is that obvious?

One of 2 things must have happened, there was either a cover up and Starbuck lied, or Apollo is brain dead and Starbuck lied.

Apollo brain dead: If a board of inquiry was formed, and there was no cover up, then somehow the deceased's own brother (Apollo) never bothered to keep track of the inquiry into his own brothers death....unlikely. Starbuck failed to tell him the truth (we all know that) and Adama for whatever reason allowed Starbuck to keep her secret(s). I really doubt Apollo would not have found out the results of the inquiry. If this scenario is right, then he's dumb as a brick.

Cover up scenario: If there was a board of inquiry, and they didn't find Starbuck liable or to blame, then her eventually admitting to Apollo that she *was* to blame implies that there was a cover up of some kind in this matter. Since Adama knew the truth, he was in on it as well. If this is correct, then Adama covered up Starbucks involvement or at least lied about it.

Excellent point Westy. Because in the mini .......no such Inquiry board took place...
so it was only 'assumed' by fans that it did.

[shiningstar]

I imagine that since you did not treat her that way it must have been hard for you to see her put through that. I'ts very sad, hurts my heart to hear that kind of thing. Everybody has something to offer our world it doesn't always have to be the same as everyone else. I'm glad to hear she had such a nice sister:)


Thanks Gaelen she's doing much better now! :heart:

[Antelope]

How is that obvious?

One of 2 things must have happened, there was either a cover up and Starbuck lied, or Apollo is brain dead and Starbuck lied.

Apollo brain dead: If a board of inquiry was formed, and there was no cover up, then somehow the deceased's own brother (Apollo) never bothered to keep track of the inquiry into his own brothers death....unlikely. Starbuck failed to tell him the truth (we all know that) and Adama for whatever reason allowed Starbuck to keep her secret(s). I really doubt Apollo would not have found out the results of the inquiry. If this scenario is right, then he's dumb as a brick.

Cover up scenario: If there was a board of inquiry, and they didn't find Starbuck liable or to blame, then her eventually admitting to Apollo that she *was* to blame implies that there was a cover up of some kind in this matter. Since Adama knew the truth, he was in on it as well. If this is correct, then Adama covered up Starbucks involvement or at least lied about it.

Actually there are many possible scenarios that involve neither idea of the above scenarios:

Zak may have died as a result of pilot error that may or may not have killed another pilot. Lee blames Adama for letting Zak become a pilot even though neither his entrance into the fleet and the crash are related issues except in the mind of Lee.

Same scenario as above. At an earlier time Kara passed Zak when he should have failed. The crash again may be unrelated to the earlier event with Kara but in her mind she feels guilty.

Zak may have died as a result of a mechanical malfunction that a better or seasoned pilot may have overcame. In either scenario it may have killed any inexperienced pilot facing the same issue.

The real reason for Zak's crash may be unknown but as usual in life, everyone must find something in their minds to blame. His aircraft may have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Both seem to believe Zak should have never been a pilot and blame someone for that issue. Ultimately however Zak wanted to be a pilot for some reason and managed to get through the system until his unfortunate accident. As a former military officer I know that I saw people who should never be made officers and the majority of people who were around them knew it, however the system sometimes fails to weed out these individuals because those in charge of the system are under various pressure. A perfect example is that the government will close down an ROTC detachment if they graduate too few new officers. The Professor of Military Science is under pressure to keep that detachment open while he is in command. A person who does not meet the standard but refuses to give up can sometimes make it through to graduation in these circumstances. They become a danger to themselves and the men they lead but it is a reality of life. Zak in the mini may be such an individual. He may not have been mentally or physically gifted but had the drive and determination to put himself in a situation beyond his abilities.

[shiningstar]

If the situation was 'beyond' his 'abilities' then he should not have been there.
THe fact that Starbuck passed him when he wasn't qualified and actually failed
should have been made public from the get go instead of starbuck allowing the
strain to be put on Adama's and his son's relationship. Instead she 'let it slide'
and only bought it up much later when the damage was done.

[Rowan]

If the situation was 'beyond' his 'abilities' then he should not have been there.
THe fact that Starbuck passed him when he wasn't qualified and actually failed
should have been made public from the get go instead of starbuck allowing the
strain to be put on Adama's and his son's relationship. Instead she 'let it slide'
and only bought it up much later when the damage was done.
Here is a thought. What if Starbuck is attempting to deflect Apollo’s anger away from his dad and on to her in an attempt to get father and son back together? In other words what if she is lying to Apollo about what she did. After all as she puts it it’s the end of the world either of them could die any minute in combat, its obvious she really cares about the commander and this situation between father and son because she’s always bringing it up with Apollo. Maybe it's more important to her that if Apollo dies out there that Commander Adama isn’t left in pain over never having reconciled with his son.

(posted farther down this thread):)

[shiningstar]

Here is a thought. What if Starbuck is attempting to deflect Apollo’s anger away from his dad and on to her in an attempt to get father and son back together? In other words what if she is lying to Apollo about what she did. After all as she puts it it’s the end of the world either of them could die any minute in combat, its obvious she really cares about the commander and this situation between father and son because she’s always bringing it up with Apollo. Maybe it's more important to her that if Apollo dies out there that Commander Adama isn’t left in pain over never having reconciled with his son.

(posted farther down this thread):)

That's always possible I suppose ...............

[Antelope]

I'm with you Gaelen! :salute:

I think that's the main point. We see the issues of anger and guilt but we really don't know the real story at this time or maybe ever. If we don't dismiss the story out of hand there is a lot of depth to be explored in a series. It is entirely possible as you say that in a noble act Kara takes the blame upon herself for an accident solely to heal the wounds of father and son.

[CrysWimmer]

In TOS the Cylons killed him. To say that Starbuck killed him for trading places is like saying that his parents killed him by giving birth to him.

In the mini on the other hand, Starbuck did kill him, indirectly anyways. She didn't intend to, but by breaking rules which would have prevented it, she kill him.

The piece that everyone misses is that you can't be objective when you love someone. How many times do we let our kids do things and hope for the best (buy them that scooter they want) and then deal with the inevitable results (trip to the ER to put that arm in a cast). Telling some you love that they can't have what they want more than anything (and if you've ever known a pilot, there's something WEIRD about them... they MUST be in the air... it's scary) is a position that Kara never should have been in. What the hell were they doing to have her in the position to pass OR fail her fiance. Talk about a mess.

I actually sympathize with Kara - I don't think she had a clue what would happen when she fudged that one little pass. As for admitting it, given the treatment that Lee gave William, would YOU tell him you did it? Especially when you're already mired in guilt from it? Not likely.

I think she did the best she could with a sad situation.

That's my story... I'm sticking to it ;)

[CrysWimmer]

Oops - kinda posted it twice... not intentional. It didnt say it posted the first time...

I think Kara did the best she could with what she had. She gave the man she loved what he wanted more than anything, and then when she realized that it was her last chance, she told Lee what he needed to know to forgive his father.

I still think she's one of the good guys... just not sure what she has against Tigh. Granted, his apology was a little forced, but the reception was... well... she could have been more... diplomatic <g>.

[shiningstar]

The piece that everyone misses is that you can't be objective when you love someone. How many times do we let our kids do things and hope for the best (buy them that scooter they want) and then deal with the inevitable results (trip to the ER to put that arm in a cast). Telling some you love that they can't have what they want more than anything (and if you've ever known a pilot, there's something WEIRD about them... they MUST be in the air... it's scary) is a position that Kara never should have been in. What the hell were they doing to have her in the position to pass OR fail her fiance. Talk about a mess.

I actually sympathize with Kara - I don't think she had a clue what would happen when she fudged that one little pass. As for admitting it, given the treatment that Lee gave William, would YOU tell him you did it? Especially when you're already mired in guilt from it? Not likely.

I think she did the best she could with a sad situation.

That's my story... I'm sticking to it ;)

I disagree with you on that one. I am a parent and am often in the position
of telling my children that they can't have everything they want.

If Kara was in charge of failing or passing someone in flight ...............
then that was her job ............and she had no business passing
someone if they had infact FAILED flight training.

Infact I've been in the position where my superior officers wanted me
to pass a boy through a course that I was responsible for teaching when
he in fact FAILED with FLYING COLORS. I risked court martial but that is
one order that I refused to obey. And I thank GOD ..........for the sake
of the people who would have put their lives in that BOYS hands ........
that I refused to pass him.

I took responsibility for my actions .........I did the right thing .........while
risking my very Military RANK and Career not to mention MY FREEDOM
while doing it. In the end ..........I retained everything ..........the BOY
was FAILED .............and lives were saved because I REFUSED to
comprimise my principles.

IF IN FACT what Kara Thrace said was true and she passed ZAC when
in fact she should have FAILED him ..........should have been put
before a military INQUIRY and should have answered for her actions
in a MILITARY COURT.

I answered for my actions ............. and I have NO REGRETS.

[CrysWimmer]

Infact I've been in the position where my superior officers wanted me
to pass a boy through a course that I was responsible for teaching when
he in fact FAILED with FLYING COLORS. I risked court martial but that is
one order that I refused to obey. And I thank GOD ..........for the sake
of the people who would have put their lives in that BOYS hands ........
that I refused to pass him.

IF IN FACT what Kara Thrace said was true and she passed ZAC when
in fact she should have FAILED him ..........should have been put
before a military INQUIRY and should have answered for her actions
in a MILITARY COURT.

I answered for my actions ............. and I have NO REGRETS.

To begin with, I do understand what you're saying - and as a teacher, I agree with you ethically 100%. What I'm saying was unfair about the situation was that she was placed in that postition when she was ENGAGED to Zak. That compromised the ethics right there - and the objectivity. Could I fail my own son when mine was the one class he needed before he could move on? Could I fail my husband? I honestly hope I never have to answer that... and it's unlikely, because I wouldn't put myself in the postion of teaching them in the first place. THAT was the mistake - no, what she did wasn't right - I'm just saying that I understand it.

As for military procedure - she would have been courtmartialed for hitting Tigh regardless of his pressing charges - the MILITARY would have pressed charges, because there were witnesses. So we can't really look at military courts in this series, because they are already showing us that things work a little differently there.

So... one last time... I did not say that what Kara did was right, nor that she should be allowed to deny responsibility.... I said 1) she should never have been in the situation in the first place and 2) I can understand where her emotional involvement clouded her judgement.

[shiningstar]

To begin with, I do understand what you're saying - and as a teacher, I agree with you ethically 100%. What I'm saying was unfair about the situation was that she was placed in that postition when she was ENGAGED to Zak. That compromised the ethics right there - and the objectivity. Could I fail my own son when mine was the one class he needed before he could move on? Could I fail my husband? I honestly hope I never have to answer that... and it's unlikely, because I wouldn't put myself in the postion of teaching them in the first place. THAT was the mistake - no, what she did wasn't right - I'm just saying that I understand it.

As for military procedure - she would have been courtmartialed for hitting Tigh regardless of his pressing charges - the MILITARY would have pressed charges, because there were witnesses. So we can't really look at military courts in this series, because they are already showing us that things work a little differently there.

So... one last time... I did not say that what Kara did was right, nor that she should be allowed to deny responsibility.... I said 1) she should never have been in the situation in the first place and 2) I can understand where her emotional involvement clouded her judgement.

Yes in the real world .............Kara would have been court martialed for
hitting Tigh. Boomer and Tyrol would have been given an article 15 for
having an affair or at the very least a written reprimend. As would
anyone else engaging in that behavior. Also anyone who was disrespectful
to a superior officer as they were in the leaked script ........would have
been put up for military discipline as well.

In the real world that type of behavior in the military simply is NOT
allowed. That also includes alcoholism, drug abuse etc...............

So I do see your point.

[Rowan]

The piece that everyone misses is that you can't be objective when you love someone.
I actually sympathize with Kara - I don't think she had a clue what would happen when she fudged that one little pass. As for admitting it, given the treatment that Lee gave William, would YOU tell him you did it? Especially when you're already mired in guilt from it? Not likely.

I think she did the best she could with a sad situation.

That's my story... I'm sticking to it ;)I have to admit I know I'm an idiot when I'm in love with a guy, no brains whatsoever, I don't think straight! I could very well have found myself in Kara's situation, a desire to please and a belief that all he needed was a little more practice and I could help him with that a little later and he'd be fine, it would be ok, I mean what are the odds that anything could go wrong between him passing the test and a few more lessons afterwards . Then the accident the loss, the overwhelming guilt, the recriminations, the fear of losing the only family I've ever know If I tell them what I did. Frankly I could see myself in a mess like that, trying to hard to be helpful, or please not just zac but his dad as well how would you like to have that on your shoulders . The person ultimately responsble for your life, dedicated his whole life to his military carreer, only thing he believes is that his sons are nothing without the wings and this chick is going to deny him this, take this away form his son, family ,would there not be a high expectation on Kara to pass him? food for thought...(I need a thinking face here)

[shiningstar]

I have to admit I know I'm an idiot when I'm in love with a guy, no brains whatsoever, I don't think straight! I could very well have found myself in Kara's situation, a desire to please and a belief that all he needed was a little more practice and I could help him with that a little later and he'd be fine, it would be ok, I mean what are the odds that anything could go wrong between him passing the test and a few more lessons afterwards . Then the accident the loss, the overwhelming guilt, the recriminations, the fear of losing the only family I've ever know If I tell them what I did. Frankly I could see myself in a mess like that, trying to hard to be helpful, or please not just zac but his dad as well how would you like to have that on your shoulders . The person ultimately responsble for your life, dedicated his whole life to his military carreer, only thing he believes is that his sons are nothing without the wings and this chick is going to deny him this, take this away form his son, family ,would there not be a high expectation on Kara to pass him? food for thought...(I need a thinking face here)

I think one of the reasons I love my husband is because he knows that I'm no
pushover. I never was and never will be. He knew from the get go ......that
I was my own person and I wasn't afraid to stand up for him or stand up TO
him as the case arose. Yet the big lug married me anyway ;)

[CrysWimmer]

I could very well have found myself in Kara's situation, a desire to please and a belief that all he needed was a little more practice and I could help him with that a little later and he'd be fine, it would be ok, I mean what are the odds that anything could go wrong between him passing the test and a few more lessons afterwards

I think that's the bottom line right there... she didn't plan for him to die. She passed him, but I'd say she probably planned to work with him a little on the side... that way she could save the paperwork, his embarrassment, and explainations to the family and still teach him to fly. I don't think she did it with the intention of him hurting himself. I mean, if that were the intent, they'd call it an "on purpose" instead of an "accident". No one was meant to die... that's why she took it so hard. At least, that's my viewpoint. The series may prove me quite wrong... but I certainly hope they address it. That's the one series hole that made me nuts... there was no closure at all between Lee and Kara, and that's a discussion that MUST take place - somehow.

[shiningstar]

I think that's the bottom line right there... she didn't plan for him to die. She passed him, but I'd say she probably planned to work with him a little on the side... that way she could save the paperwork, his embarrassment, and explainations to the family and still teach him to fly. I don't think she did it with the intention of him hurting himself. I mean, if that were the intent, they'd call it an "on purpose" instead of an "accident". No one was meant to die... that's why she took it so hard. At least, that's my viewpoint. The series may prove me quite wrong... but I certainly hope they address it. That's the one series hole that made me nuts... there was no closure at all between Lee and Kara, and that's a discussion that MUST take place - somehow.

There was an old saying I learned to live by .............

"The road to HELL is PAVED with GOOD INTENTIONS"


She might have not "MEANT" for him to die ........but if what she said
was true ..........SHE was the one who was responsible for him dieing
out there and She is the one who needed to answer for it infront
of a military inquiry.

[CrysWimmer]

She might have not "MEANT" for him to die ........but if what she said
was true ..........SHE was the one who was responsible for him dieing
out there and She is the one who needed to answer for it infront
of a military inquiry.

And that would solve.... what? Make her feel that much worse? Take away the Galactica's top pilot? Make Lee and William feel that much worse? It was an accident... how can treating it like a deliberate crime have any positive repercussions? She's not a serial killer that's likely to strike again. She made a bad decision, and trust me... she's paid. She lost her fiance! She's accepted responsibility, and trust me... the military can't be any harder on her than Lee will be. Forgiving that guy is not! I just don't see what good it would do... there is no justice for a dead man. It won't bring him back. Also - even if he'd marginally passed, or not passed and been on Caprica - Zak would be dead now anyway. That doesn't make it right, but I still don't see how a trial would make anything better.

[Antelope]

As a former military man I can say that from time to time you become aware that some people let others pass that shouldn't. I don't approve of it and wouldn't expect anyone to do it for me but it is reality. I don't think anyone that ever cut somebody some slack ever thinks it will result in their or someone elses death. In the Army I know that some people majically pass the weight test or physical fitness test. Most people involved in such activity rationalize that they are keeping a "good" soldier in the military. 90% of the time they are probably right. I can only imagine the guilt one would carry however if a knowing non-earned pass ultimately resulted in someone's death. It might just make one into an angry self destructive person...just like the mini Kara Thrace.

[Rowan]

I think one of the reasons I love my husband is because he knows that I'm no
pushover. I never was and never will be. He knew from the get go ......that
I was my own person and I wasn't afraid to stand up for him or stand up TO
him as the case arose. Yet the big lug married me anyway ;)
shiningstar it really depends on the situation I find myself in. I know when I'm in love my brain is a fuzzy with thoughts of him. But with regards to being a pushover I have risked my personal safety/life in defence of others more times than I have fingers and toes.:)

[shiningstar]

And that would solve.... what? Make her feel that much worse? Take away the Galactica's top pilot? Make Lee and William feel that much worse? It was an accident... how can treating it like a deliberate crime have any positive repercussions? She's not a serial killer that's likely to strike again. She made a bad decision, and trust me... she's paid. She lost her fiance! She's accepted responsibility, and trust me... the military can't be any harder on her than Lee will be. Forgiving that guy is not! I just don't see what good it would do... there is no justice for a dead man. It won't bring him back. Also - even if he'd marginally passed, or not passed and been on Caprica - Zak would be dead now anyway. That doesn't make it right, but I still don't see how a trial would make anything better.

In the REAL WORLD ............that would be considered a deliberate crime.
Especially in the MILITARY. You're right a military inquiry would not bring
Zac back ..........But if KARA THRACE had thought out her actions before
this happened then .........there wouldn't be a NEED for an inquiry in the
first place ............while she may have well lost Zac's love ...........I think
in the long run ...........he would have redoubled his efforts to PASS the
training ........and have become a better pilot for it........or at the very
least ..........he would still have been alive .........

[Rowan]

As a former military man I can say that from time to time you become aware that some people let others pass that shouldn't. I don't approve of it and wouldn't expect anyone to do it for me but it is reality. I don't think anyone that ever cut somebody some slack ever thinks it will result in their or someone elses death. In the Army I know that some people majically pass the weight test or physical fitness test. Most people involved in such activity rationalize that they are keeping a "good" soldier in the military. 90% of the time they are probably right. I can only imagine the guilt one would carry however if a knowing non-earned pass ultimately resulted in someone's death. It might just make one into an angry self destructive person...just like the mini Kara Thrace.
I'm noticing this same kind of thing in my nursing program. there are students who are passing clinical who the students know should never be passed. Frankly it terrifies me that in a year that they will be making these mistakes without anyone there to step in in time to fix it. Hopefully they will improve sufficciently in the interem.

[Rowan]

In school when we question why a certain student was allowed to pass when we don't think they should have we are told there is a certain amount of subjectivity to the judgement. Possibly Kara in hindsight is second guessing herself. what if, Maybe I shouldn't have passed him, maybe he wasn't as good as I thought he was , maybe he wasn't ready after all he did have this accident, maybe if I had been tougher on him and failed him he would have lived, it's all my fault...

[shiningstar]

I'm noticing this same kind of thing in my nursing program. there are students who are passing clinical who the students know should never be passed. Frankly it terrifies me that in a year that they will be making these mistakes without anyone there to step in in time to fix it. Hopefully they will improve sufficciently in the interem.

I believe you ......... We had a doctor here ...........a year back. I couldn't
place my finger on it ..........but I simply did not trust her ability to do the job.
When My doctor asked me to transfer to her .......I refused. A few months
later .......a lot of women were having problems with 'exams' ..........and a
woman bled to death on 'her watch' just after giving birth to her son.

After a very THOUROUGH investigation it was discovered that she
had problems in OTHER hospitals where she practiced medicine ...........
and even put on REVIEW ..........that REVIEW never made it to MY hospital
or MY TOWN ............if it had .........I know a little baby boy and a wonderful
man who would still have their MOTHER and WIFE alive.

The People who PASSED this woman is now being SUED by her former
patients and the Family of the woman who didn't MAKE it.

THere are also inquiries to what happened to pass her through when
she wasn't qualified to do the job. ............ I can assure you that
when the inquiries are OVER ........the people who passed her WILL
answer for their actions as well they SHOULD.

[shiningstar]

In school when we question why a certain student was allowed to pass when we don't think they should have we are told there is a certain amount of subjectivity to the judgement. Possibly Kara in hindsight is second guessing herself. what if, Maybe I shouldn't have passed him, maybe he wasn't as good as I thought he was , maybe he wasn't ready after all he did have this accident, maybe if I had been tougher on him and failed him he would have lived, it's all my fault...

According to the 'script' that's not what she said.
And going on the basis of what she actually said in the mini
she should answer for her remarks in a military inquiry.