In Harm's Way

[Antelope]

I've mentioned this in a few other threads but haven't heard much discussion on the subject. Usually I post on the pro-mini forum but think this is more of an anti-mini subject.

Does anybody other than me realize that the mini is more of a remake of "In Harm's Way", a black and white classic John Wayne movie than it is a reimagination of Battlestar Galactica?

After watching the mini I realized this instantly. I also found that this subject is partially censored at SCIFI (Reply OK/Thread NO). I did an internet search on "Battlestar Galactica In Harm's Way" and found an interview where Moore speaks about both Adama and Tigh being based on characters from "In Harm's Way".

What Moore does not say but is obvious to a fan of "In Harm's Way" is that nearly all of the characters and all the combat sequences come from "In Harm's Way". If there is any interest in this subject I will write the details later. Most of the character problems in the mini are where Moore sloppily shoehorned two or more characters from "In Harm's Way" into one character or split characters in the mini. The biggest example of combining and splicing a character from "In Harm's Way" poorly into the mini was Starbuck.

The other question I believe this will raise is what will the series look like if there is one? Since Moore basically plagarized "In Harm's Way" with no credit what will he do next? There is no "In Harm's Way" series to copy. Maybe he will follow TOS from here on out or maybe he will continue to copy other classic naval movies and put them into the Galactica mythos. The whole concept of "reimagination" may be nothing but spin. I saw little beyond the special effects I hadn't seen before. Even the enemy within concept is stolen from "In Harm's Way".

I am a pro-mini person but unlike most those nights I was looking forward to seeing an old friend, Battlestar Galactica when unexpectedly another old friend came instead!

If you never saw "In Harm's Way" go rent it. Most of what Moore was trying to do will suddenly become clear.

[Sept17th]

Originally posted by antelope526
Does anybody other than me realize that the mini is more of a remake of "In Harm's Way", a black and white classic John Wayne movie than it is a reimagination of Battlestar Galactica?

Most of the character problems in the mini are where Moore sloppily shoehorned two or more characters from "In Harm's Way" into one character or split characters in the mini. The biggest example of combining and splicing a character from "In Harm's Way" poorly into the mini was Starbuck.

Maybe he will follow TOS from here on out or maybe he will continue to copy other classic naval movies and put them into the Galactica mythos. The whole concept of "reimagination" may be nothing but spin. I saw little beyond the special effects I hadn't seen before. Even the enemy within concept is stolen from "In Harm's Way".


I’m aware “nothing new has been written since Shakespeare”. I’m aware Harms Way influenced Moore.

If the above is all true then once again I ask what has Ron Moore fixed about Battllestar Galactica? The two problems with TOS overuse of FX shots and “poor” writing.

The mini-series gave us boring space battles with slow moving nukes, bullets and muffled sound.

The gripes about original series writing lack of good science and derivative scripts of movies for example The Gun on Ice Planet Zero, which I screened last night.

So in the grand “re-invention” of the space opera what was fixed? Not much but everything else that worked was sure “jacked up”.

[shiningstar]

Good thread antelope. Thanks for posting.

[Antelope]

At the start of "In Harm's Way" (Battlestar Galactica 2003) Captain Rockwell Torrey (Commander Adama) and his XO, Commander Paul Eddington (Colonel Tigh) discuss that they are on an obsolete warship (battlestar). I believe the word museum piece is used in both movies. Torrey's heavy cruiser (Galactica) is a remnant from an earlier war, World War I (First Cylon War). It does not have the latest technology, RADAR (networked computers). It is referred to as bat blind. The Day is December 7, 1941 (Day of Cylon Halocaust). The cruiser (Galactica) is alone in the Pacific (space) far enough from the fleet moored at Pearl Harbor (Picon). It is not attacked during the initial strike.

Soon it becomes apparant that the heavy cruiser (Galactica) is the only surviving capital warship. It is joined by a destroyer (obsolete vipers). The destroyer (vipers) under command of LTJG McConnell (Starbuck) screen for the heavy cruiser (Galactica) when a Japanese (Cylon) submarine (raider) fires a torpedo (missile) into the hull of the cruiser (Galactica). LTJG McConnell's destroyer (Starbucks viper) destroys the submarine (raider). The hull breach threatens to sink the cruiser (Galactica). Water tight doors (airlocks) are closed. The XO takes personal charge of the hull breach situation. The cruiser (Galactica) is saved.

As time warrants I will try to slowly but surely show a comparison of all the major characters and subplots of the mini and and their twins in "In Harm's Way".

[Antelope]

Captain Rockwell Torrey (Commander Adama) is the commander of an obsolete heavy cruiser (Galactica) prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor (Cylon Halocaust). Captain Torrey (Commander Adama) is a divorced father late in his military career. He is estranged from his son, Ensign Jerrod Torrey (Captain Lee Adama). He meets his son after years as a result of military orders. He has an awkward scene where he tries to talk with his son for the first time. To break the ice he asks his son about his son's mother, his former wife. His son replies that she is remarried. They do not patch up their differences at that time.

As a result of the war and Captain Rockwell Torrey's military knowledge he is promoted to Admiral and made Operational Commander of Operation Skyhook (Commander Adama takes over as "Fleet Commander"). Admiral Torrey starts a relationship with a Nurse Commander named Maggie (Laura Roslin). The fleet deploys to the Gavavutu theatre (Ragnar FTL jump). Admiral Torrey leads the fleet in a climatic surface battle against a numerically superior enemy force (Adama fights the Cylons at Ragnar prior to the final FTL jump.). Admiral Torrey (Adama) lay wounded in a hospital ship (in the bay with the dead warriors) with Maggie (President Roslin). An Admiral gives a speach to Admiral Torrey that says he is not defeated but successful and that he will stomp on to Tokyo (Earth).

[Antelope]

Commander Paul Eddington is the first character from "In Harm's Way" to be spliced into two charcters in the mini. It is this splicing and combining of characters that weakens the writing in the mini.

Commander Paul Eddington (Colonel Tigh) is the XO of the heavy cruiser (Galactica) at the start of the movie. He is an alcoholic as a result of issues with his philandering (deleted scene in the mini) wife. He starts a fight with other officers when off duty. He saves the cruiser (Galactica) during the hull breach subplot.

Commander Eddington (Starbuck) is placed in the brig after starting a fight with other officers. He (She) is released by Captain Torrey (Commander Adama). Commander Eddington (Starbuck) flys his (her) aircraft (viper) prior to the battle of Gavavutu (Ragnar) in the clouds. He (She) discovers the extent of the Japanese (Cylon) fleet and the desperate situation they are really in.

[kingfish]

As I stated in another thread Eddington has his reasons for flying the mission. Sadly they aren't heroic. Eddington in a rage rapes the woman that Rock Torrey's son plans on marrying. Burgess meridith asks if Eddington should be considered for a metal and Torrey states no. Look for a young Caroll O'Connor in this flick and a very youthful Larry Hagman of Dallas fame as well.

[sihirvyth2]

Good thread antelope.

I caught In Harm's way again recently. Besides the irony of using a movie from 1965 to 'update' Battlestar Galactica, I really think Moore used the wrong movie to draw inspiration from. It's also interesting that Moore looked to a movie about the attack on Perl Harbor to draw parallels between his version of BSG and 9-11.
I still get the feeling that the script and the production were overly rushed. I wouldn't be surprised if he caught In Harm's Way on TCM one night while trying to meet the deadline to write the BSG mini and thought "Oooh, this looks gooood!"

[larocque6689]

I caught a bit of Harm's Way recently and found that Jamie Bamber's Apollo in his earlier scenes with Daddy were actually MORE LIKEABLE than the character's equivalent scenes in In Harm's Way. In the son's conrontation with John Wayne, The Duke wanted to pick him up by the neck and throw him in the water. So did I!

Congratulations to Jamie Bamber for actually improving on the script with a good performance and playing a more likeable character than the original, if it can be believed.

[Antelope]

Eddington is the perfect "flawed hero" that Moore said he was looking to do. I think Moore messed up however by splitting Eddington out into two characters. The Colonel Tigh of the mini appears to have all the dark flawed side and none of the heroic wild side. Starbuck as a combination character who contains the positive sides of Eddington just doesn't come off well to me. Kingfish is right that Eddington had his reasons to pull the recon in the clouds mission. I wish they could have killed off the dark Tigh somehow using the same scene. With Starbuck pulling the mission it was just "following orders". As I said in other places the goal of preserving characters for a series really hurt the mini.

As for Moore using "In Harm's Way" because he was rushed, I don't think that was an issue. I read an interview where Moore made it clear he is a big time naval historian and fan of "In Harm's Way". He states openly that Adama and Tigh were based on Admiral Torrey and Commander Eddington. What I have come to conclude however is that the entire project was a remake of "In Harm's Way". I think the only changes were done to facilitate a possible series in the future and shoehorn the mythos. I think this would be a touchy subject to Moore since it stabbs straight into the heart of the overall "reimagination" issue. I think Moore knows exactly what he did but doesn't want to publicize it. Whether those people who funded this project understand what he did I can only guess. The bottom line is that Moore loves making SCIFI shows and he loves "In Harm's Way". This was probabaly the easiest way he could fund the "In Harm's Way" SCIFI remake project he probabaly dreamed of doing for years. I think he fooled a lot of people but I don't think he was in a hurry.

[Antelope]

As mentioned earlier in this thread the character of Ensign Jerrod Torrey is the base for Apollo in the mini. Apollo however is another composite character. Apollo is Jerrod Torrey at both the beginning and the end of the mini but his role with President Roslin on Colonial One and the subsequent MIA and reuniting subplot is based on the character of LTJG McConnel. I'll mention LTJG McConnell in more detail later.

Ensign Jerrod Torrey (Lee Adama) is an elitist Ivy league (college background of Lee Adama unknown) junior officer who shows open disdain for the military and the chain of command. He is estranged from his father, CPT Rockwell Torrey (Commander Adama). CPT Rockwell Torrey did not even know his son was in the Navy until CPT Torrey discovered he was stationed in Hawaii through another officer (Lee Adama was sent to the Galactica as a result of military orders). The estrangement is based on CPT Torreys divorce from Jerrod Torrey's mother many years ago (Although Lee Adama's mother is divorced from Commander Adama the estrangement is based on the death of Zack<shoe horn the mythos>). Ensign Torrey (Lee Adama) is obviously bothered by the respect and defference shown his father by the crew and sailors who have been with him. By the end of the movie Jerrod Torrey (Lee Adama) grows as a man and as a son. He comes to respect and understand his father. He has also come to respect the military and the sacrifices it entails. There is positive hope the two would be close in time. Unfortunately Jerrod Torrey is killed when his PT boat is rammed by a Japanese destroyer while screening for the fleet at the climatic battle of Gavavutu (Lee Adama's final scenes with the viper screening for the fleet at Ragnar are pretty similar. Since he was needed for a series his viper was damaged not destroyed and he was rescued).

Some of the issues that hurt the mini is that Jerrod Torrey was an Ensign not a LT like CPT Apollo. As such Apollo is a seasoned officer, Ensign Torrey was not. The early snotty Apollo does not match a man of his rank but it could reflect an ensign. In order to fix this problem they had to enhance the character. I will save that for another post.

[Antelope]

Two of the most noble characters in "In Harm's Way" are LTJG McConnel and his wife. They tried in the mini to preserve their storyline through the characters of Apollo and Starbuck. The way they spliced and combined characters however weakened the potential it had.

LTJG McConnel (in this case Starbuck) commands the destroyer (viper) that defends the cruiser (Galactica) during the initial attack. He (She) destroys the enemy submarine (raider) but can not stop the torpedo (missile) strike starting the hull breach.

LTJG McConnell (now Apollo) goes missing in action. His wife (Starbuck) now fears he was killed. LTJG McConnel (Apollo) turns up alive. He and his wife (Starbuck) are reunited in an emotional scene.

Personally I think this was a wasted opportunity for Moore. He could have modeled Apollo 100% on LTJG McConnel and made Mrs. McConnell into Serena and gave them a kid named Boxey. At the end of the mini we would have been close to where we ended "Saga of a Star World". To keep the Jerrod Torrey story intact Moore could have made Jerrod Torrey into Zac, picked any reason for the estrangement and ended the mini with Zac's viper being destroyed screening for the fleet at Ragnar. We would have Apollo, Serena, and Boxey intact. Zac would have died in battle as the young heroic warrior he was..... what could have been.

[Antelope]

The character that CPO Tyrol is based on was played by Carol O'Conner in "In Harm's Way". I forgot the characters name so any help from the fleet on this is appreciated. Both Tyrol and the character played by O'Conner were the head maintenance man on the cruiser (Galactica). Both were envisioned as fairly minor roles. Our own Aaron Douglas mentions this fact (originally a minor role) in his Q & A thread. You have to pat Aaron Douglas on the back however because he mentions that he improvised and modified his character to bring him out during the hull breach scene. As such he took a designed minor character in both the mini and it's source and transformed him into a fan favorite. Whether you are pro or anti-mini you must be pro-Aaron Douglas.

If this goes to series I think Aaron Douglas guaranteed himself a job and a fan base, something I don't think was guaranteed by the original script!

[repcisg]

This is a very good thread, I like the parallels you have drawn here.

Moore did not do Sci-fi any favors using In Harms Way as a model, for the remake. In Harms Way was it self is a composite of a number of battles and personalities drawn from the Guadalcanal campaign. As with the movie Battle of the Bulge (another composite) it did not do well at the box office. If Moore is the historian he says he is then he could have drawn his inspiration from the naval battle of Nov 11/12, 1942. Often referred to as the naval equivalent of a bar room knife fight between Cruisers and Battleships. Or he could have used the slug-fest of Nov 13/14 1942, between Japanese and American Battleships. Imagine if you will Battleships duking it out in the dark at point blank range! Or the Cruiser engagement of Nov 30.

There is no shortage of material from that period to draw on for the mini. Besides who said the Galactica had to be the only warship present at Ragnar? One of the criticisms of TOS is the lack of escorts, only Battlestars were present at Cimtar. Moore had the opportunity to introduce us to Colonial Cruisers and or Destroyers, fast ships going in harms way.

Just doing a little free association here, suppose he had drawn his inspiration from the Nov 13/14 battle. Two American Battleships with four destroyers engaged a Japanese Battle squadron with one Battleship two heavy Cruisers, two light cruisers and nine destroyers. The US lost three destroyers, with one Battleship and one destroyer shot up and one Battleship undamaged. The Japanese lost one Battleship and one destroyer.

We could have had the Galactica and her sister the Pegasus escorted by four Colonial destroyers at Ragnar. As the fleet escapes we see the Galactica undamaged and the Pegasus and one destroyer with her in need of serious repair. We are left with the basic story intact but with a greater opportunity for dynamic story interplay.

And as for Aaron - I think his charactor was the strongest and most believable of all the charactors.

[Antelope]

You have some great ideas there. It's too bad Moore didn't work with them. Even in "In Harm's Way" the final battle included a variety of American ships against a large Japanese surface fleet. Since Moore has stated if the show goes to series he would like to redo "Living Legend" it would have been great if the Pegasus and at least a few colonial warships were at Ragnar. You're right, they could have had a much better final battle. Caine could have fought a rear guard battle as the Galactica and the rag tag fleet escaped. It would have been beautiful. Of course it would lay the work for a reunion episode down the road since the fate of the rear guard would be unknown to Adama and the Galactica.

The original "Living Legend" episodes always seemed to me to be a combination of the Battle of Midway and Patton. I would bet good money that a Moore version will be very similar to the movie "Midway". You only need 2 Battlestars and a lot of vipers versus a large cylon fleet with 4 (?) Basestars and their escorts. The whole Pegasus story was one of my favorites. They could retell it the same but improve the battle part to reflect the entire Midway experience. It would be a great three hour episode or miniseries.

[repcisg]

I am curious to see how Moore would explain Pegasus's appearance. It could not claim to have been cut off during 40 years of peace.

[Antelope]

I thought the easiest way at this point would be to say it or any other surviving warship FTL jumped on it's own initiative beyond "the red line"--whatever that means. They could claim they were under "radio" silence or "radios" were knocked out when Adama ordered the fleet to meet at Ragnar. They could also write a script where they say they went to Ragnar late because of damage and found nobody there. Since Caine had no rag tag fleet he has been fighting his own war against the cylons since that day (Adama's original plan before he got stuck with the civilians and the President). He heard rumor of the Galactica from cylon transmissions but without the FTL coordinates of the post-Ragnar jump had no way of finding them.

[PlaidSquadron]

Excellent posts.

I, too, find it pretty amazing that there would be so many parallels if it was not intended. It is an easy way out, though. The target audience for the mini is probably least familar with movies from the 60s....

[dvo47p]

Originally posted by PlaidSquadron
Excellent posts.

I, too, find it pretty amazing that there would be so many parallels if it was not intended. It is an easy way out, though. The target audience for the mini is probably least familar with movies from the 60s....
THESE TWO SHOWS HAVE ABSOLUTELY & UTTERLY NOTHING IN COMMON, PERIOD

Ronald D. Moore liked Otto Preminger’s movie ‘In Harm's Way’, Ronnie even went took NROTC @ Cornell, so what’s with all the saluting on deck felgercarb?

‘In Harm's Way’ Capt. Paul Eddington was Kirk Douglas portrayed Adm. ‘Rock’ Torrey’s Chief of Staff, his wife cheated on him but was killed with her AAF boyfriend near Pearl by the Japanese.

NOBODY & I mean NOBODY crossed Capt. Paul Eddington & walked away! Patrick O'Neal’s character Cmdr. Neal Owynn crossed Rock Torrey, once, that was it, Eddington drank but, never on duty, he was no Col. Tigh. Eddington would not start a fight, because nobody WOULD EVER CONSIDER IT PERIOD!

Lt. j.g. Jere Torrey was estranged from his dad Adm. ‘Rock’, but they made up before Jere was KIA. Eddington raped Jere’s fiancée, took out a PBJ-1 medium bomber on a one way suicide recon mission after Jere’s fiancée killed herself when she found out she was pregnant from Eddington’s rape, & OD'ed.

Ronald D. Moore is no Otto Preminger and I positive he never will be mentioned as such.

Watch out Ronnie also invoiced Alfred Hitchcock, for Sagan’s sake!

[Antelope]

Your original statement about these two movies have "absolutely nothing in common" I hope was meant as sarcasm.

Ron Moore in an interview I have read specifically states that he was inspired by "In Harm's Way" when writing the mini. He also specifically states that the characters of Commander Adama and Colonel Tigh are based on Rockwell Torrey and Paul Eddington from "In Harm's Way".

On some of the specific differences you state:

Colonel Tigh's wife was cheating on him. This is a deleted scene from the mini. It is the reason for his alcoholoic depression.

The "In Harms Way" scene of Tigh's wife fooling around was redone in the mini in the now famous (or infamous) red spine scene.

I assume just like "In Harm's Way" Colonel Tigh's wife was killed in the cylon attack.

Commander Eddington did start a fight, was thrown in the brig, and had to be signed out into the custody of Rock Torrey.

The scene of Commander Neal Owyn being slapped around by Eddington then thrown off the island was redone in the mini when Colonel Tigh had the human cylon abandoned to his own on Ragnar.

Just like Jerrod Torrey, Apollo made up with his father before the climatic battle. Jerrod died in battle --- Apollo is needed for a series.

Patricia Neil's character Maggie crossed Rock Torrey once...so did President Roslin. The final scene in "In Harm's Way" is between Rockwell Torrey and Maggie in the mini it's between Adama and Roslin.

The mini is a remake of "In Harm's Way" not a duplicate.

[Antelope]

The whole Enemy Within subplot of Baltar and Cylon 6 is based on the Enemy Within subplot in "In Harm's Way" of Admiral Broderick and Commander Neil Owen.

Admiral Broderick (Baltar) is a highly respected member of the establishment. Both are sought for advice by the leaders of society at large (In the case of Admiral Broderick. He gives advice to CINCPAC after Pearl Harbor). Both make stupid decisions and although book or position smart neither have any street smarts. Both are primarily motivated by their personal situation not what is going on to society as a whole. Both are morally challenged.

Admiral Broderick (Baltar) has a sidekick named Commander Neil Owen (Cylon 6). Commander Owen (Cylon 6) is the real brains of the duo. Both manipulate their superior for their own personal benefit not the benifit of society or the military situation. Commander Owen (Cylon 6) although a military officer (human-cylon) is primarily motivated by how he will appear after the war in his position in the American (Cylon) government.

Commander Neal Owen (in this case represented by the cylon thrown off the Galactica at Ragnar) is fingered as an "enemy within". He is slapped around by Commander Eddington (brig scene with Colonel Tigh) and then forced to leave the operational theatre (left on Ragnar).

In addition Cylon 6 got to play the scene of Paul Eddington's cheating wife to include the naked back and the body of water background. No glowing spine in "In Harm's Way" but most of the "modern" sex scene was there in the 1965 version. Some people have asked on another thread if that was Cylon 6's picture Tigh destroys in the mini? I couldn't tell if it was but don't think so but it does add something to the "In Harm's Way" similarities if it was.

[kingfish]

Originally posted by antelope526
The character that CPO Tyrol is based on was played by Carol O'Conner in "In Harm's Way". I forgot the characters name so any help from the fleet on this is appreciated. Both Tyrol and the character played by O'Conner were the head maintenance man on the cruiser (Galactica). Both were envisioned as fairly minor roles. Our own Aaron Douglas mentions this fact (originally a minor role) in his Q & A thread. You have to pat Aaron Douglas on the back however because he mentions that he improvised and modified his character to bring him out during the hull breach scene. As such he took a designed minor character in both the mini and it's source and transformed him into a fan favorite. Whether you are pro or anti-mini you must be pro-Aaron Douglas.

If this goes to series I think Aaron Douglas guaranteed himself a job and a fan base, something I don't think was guaranteed by the original script!



Caroll O'Connor played Burke in the film.

[repcisg]

Actually there is very little that is new these days, I am still trying to get my mind around the dried up armadilo look. The gater just seemed to work better.

[dvo47p]

These two productions are not even ships that pass in the dark of night, the comparison is only a daydream of Ronald D. Moore, do not make the mistake of taking his ridiculous analogy at face value.

Originally posted by antelope526 Your original statement about these two movies have "absolutely nothing in common" I hope was meant as sarcasm.

Sarcasm as in mockery, RDM’s dubious claim to have used ‘In Harm’s Way’ is a best an analogy, albeit a piss poor one. WW II was fresh in the American consciousness. ‘In Harm’s Way’s’ end, we see Wayne broken and depressed in a hospital, with an amputated leg, a dead son, a dead substitute son (Eddington).

Dead friends, and a dead crew. What has he gained? Guilt and probably irremediable loss. Well, he still has Neal, but one gets the sense that he's hanging on to her like a life preserver rather than as a life-mate. Victory and its attendant glories have come at too high a price for Wayne. Even the cast credits at the end are somewhat shocking, with its roiling sea storms and explosions, finally ending with a detonation of an atomic bomb! ‘In Harm's Way’ may be the subtlest anti-war picture ever made. Those who think otherwise weren't paying close enough attention, so in this Ronald D. Moore is asinine, at best.

Originally posted by antelope526 Ron Moore in an interview I have read specifically states that he was inspired by "In Harm's Way" when writing the mini. He also specifically states that the characters of Commander Adama and Colonel Tigh are based on Rockwell Torrey and Paul Eddington from "In Harm's Way".[/B]

Ronnie ‘said’ he studied it and like it in school, only the simple could confuse ‘In Harm’s Way’ with The Scifi Channel’s original production of Battlestar Galactica 2003. Sure if you actually think Otto Preminger & Ron D. Moore have anything in common. Preminger made great pictures, Moore to the best of my knowledge & the imdb.com has never done an original program. He is a pick up guy, as in picked up by Star Trek: TNG executive producer Michael Pillar right out of college to write for ST: TNG, not and original production on his resume.

Originally posted by antelope526 Colonel Tigh's wife was cheating on him. This is a deleted scene from the mini. It is the reason for his alcoholic depression. [/B]

Douglas sinks into the bottle after the death of his cheating wife until the American fleet rebuilds and calls upon Wayne to lead one of the initial invasion forces. What does Tigh do to redeem himself, apologize to Starchick, and quit drinking, why not go out and take as many Cylons out in a blaze of heroism? POPPYCOCK! Ron D. Moore’s Tigh has only one redeeming value, Adama’s friendship.

Originally posted by antelope526 Commander Eddington did start a fight, was thrown in the brig, and had to be signed out into the custody of Rock Torrey.
The scene of Commander Neal Owyn being slapped around by Eddington then thrown off the island was redone in the mini when Colonel Tigh had the human Cylon abandoned to his own on Ragnar.
Just like Jerrod Torrey, Apollo made up with his father before the climatic battle. Jerrod died in battle --- Apollo is needed for a series. [/B]

Jere could be a Zac/Apollo but this is a Larsen creation, hardly Otto Preminger'. Ronnie never delved into Zac, this Cylon #6 outed was pure TV slock. Cmdr. Owyn was a spy of another US Navy Admiral, hardly a Jap.

Once Eddington was drunk, fought AAF guy, the same service of his adulterous wife died with, that was it, Rock got him out of the brig, then rescued him from oblivion when Nimitiz made Rock Admiral. He failed once more by raping young Jere’s fiancée @ a beach party, he then did that suicide mission not so much as to end his life but to rescue Operation SkyHook. Wayne/Rock knew what Douglas/Eddington had done ergo his curt NO when a decoration for Eddington was mentioned.

Originally posted by antelope526 Patricia Neil's character Maggie crossed Rock Torrey once...so did President Roslin. The final scene in "In Harm's Way" is between Rockwell Torrey and Maggie in the mini it's between Adama and Roslin. [/B]

Maggie loved Rock Torrey & Torrey reciprocated, Adama didn’t care for “That School Teacher”, any comparison is specious.

Originally posted by antelope526 The mini is a remake of "In Harm's Way" not a duplicate. [/B]

The mini is a remake of "In Harm's Way" get real antelope526, not by a long shot, except in the mind of Ron D. Moore, it is only a remake of “Saga of a Star War”, a creation of Glen A. Larson.

"In Harm's Way" a novel that was Preminger's sprawling World War II drama packs a lot into it, beginning with the attack on Pearl Harbor and ending a couple of years later with America's return to the South Pacific in force. John Wayne and Kirk Douglas star as a career naval captain and his self-pitying commander in the peacetime navy who are thrust into battle when Pearl Harbor is bombed while they are on maneuvers.

Soon into WWII, they are already scapegoated and passed over by the embarrassed Navy brass. Wayne/Rock romances a nurse and attempts a reconciliation with his estranged, spoiled son while Douglas/Eddington sinks into the bottle after the death of his cheating wife until the American fleet rebuilds and calls upon Wayne to lead one of the initial invasion forces. With a flawed but reformed Eddington that chose suicide for personnel failure, that saves the day!

[Antelope]

Eddington is on the cruiser with then Captain Torrey prior to the death of his wife and prior to the attack at Pearl Harbor just like Colonel Tigh on the Galactica. Commander Eddington is not shaven, dressed properly, or ready for duty. Captain Torrey has a talk with him where he politely but firmly puts Eddington into his place. We are told Eddington was already busted from Naval Aviation prior to his assignment with an old friend, Captain Torrey. The situation with Colonel Tigh is pretty much the same. If anything "In Harm's Way" goes into far greater detail in the explanation. Both Tigh and Eddington have the put down/destroyed picture scene with the wife's photo on board the ship. This was prior to Eddington's knowledge of her death on December 7th.

Moore says he was inspired by "In Harm's Way". Moore himself says Adama and Tigh are based on Torrey and Eddington. This is not my theory or speculation. I just think this is far more than inspiration (bordering on plagarism since no credit is givin at the end of the mini). If you don't see it that way we can agree to disagree.

Moore did change aspects of "In Harm's Way" to fit the Galactica mythos. Obviously this is more a pilot than a stand alone movie. He did change things to facilitate a future series and I speculate may have intentional tried to put the relationships at the end of the mini so they reflected the situation between characters at the end of season 1 of TOS.

When I am done putting up my "In Harm's Way" mini comparisons I will try to elaborate on the mythos merger. I had a nice conversation with Dawg on the subject on the mini good forum.

Thanks for reading my thoughts on this even if we disagree!

[Antelope]

The character played by Burgess Meredith (once again forgot his name) in "In Harm's Way" was the basis for the character Boomer in the mini.

Both were intel officers. Both were very unsure of themselves on the eve of battle. The conversation each has about going into battle is very similar.

The Burgess Meredith character however has no "enemy within" potential. Of couse if you delete the last Boomer scene in the mini, neither did she.

Boomer got the job of fixing the Galactica mythos by ensuring the landing on Caprica scene from "Saga of a Star World" was redone in the mini.

The Burgess Meredith character died in the final battle but of course we need Boomer and her cylon subplot for any potential series.

[dvo47p]

Originally posted by antelope526 Eddington is on the cruiser with then Captain Torrey prior to the death of his wife and prior to the attack at Pearl Harbor just like Colonel Tigh on the Galactica. Commander Eddington is not shaven, dressed properly, or ready for duty. Captain Torrey has a talk with him where he politely but firmly puts Eddington into his place. We are told Eddington was already busted from Naval Aviation prior to his assignment with an old friend, Captain Torrey. The situation with Colonel Tigh is pretty much the same. If anything "In Harm's Way" goes into far greater detail in the explanation. Both Tigh and Eddington have the put down/destroyed picture scene with the wife's photo on board the ship. This was prior to Eddington's knowledge of her death on December 7th.Moore says he was inspired by "In Harm's Way". Moore himself says Adama and Tigh are based on Torrey and Eddington. This is not my theory or speculation. I just think this is far more than inspiration (bordering on plagarism since no credit is givin at the end of the mini). If you don't see it that way we can agree to disagree.Moore did change aspects of "In Harm's Way" to fit the Galactica mythos. Obviously this is more a pilot than a stand alone movie. He did change things to facilitate a future series and I speculate may have intentional tried to put the relationships at the end of the mini so they reflected the situation between characters at the end of season 1 of TOS. When I am done putting up my "In Harm's Way" mini comparisons I will try to elaborate on the mythos merger. I had a nice conversation with Dawg on the subject on the mini good forum.Thanks for reading my thoughts on this even if we disagree!
Originally posted by antelope526 The character played by Burgess Meredith (once again forgot his name) in "In Harm's Way" was the basis for the character Boomer in the mini.Both were intel officers. Both were very unsure of themselves on the eve of battle. The conversation each has about going into battle is very similar.The Burgess Meredith character however has no "enemy within" potential. Of couse if you delete the last Boomer scene in the mini, neither did she.Boomer got the job of fixing the Galactica mythos by ensuring the landing on Caprica scene from "Saga of a Star World" was redone in the mini.The Burgess Meredith character died in the final battle but of course we need Boomer and her cylon subplot for any potential series.

This is a waste of bandwidth & time.

TheEnd

[Proximo]

Fair do's, you obviously don't agree. But... am I the only one who sees the irony is wasting your bandwidth to find these choice quotes so you can declare this a waste of bandwidth? :)

[jewels]

dvo, that was rude, hun. There were a couple of folks interested in discussing this--at least I saw some discussion in another thread. Just avoid the thread if you are not interested.

[dvo47p]

Sorry jewels, yes I did bad.
Originally posted by jewels
dvo, that was rude, hun. There were a couple of folks interested in discussing this--at least I saw some discussion in another thread. Just avoid the thread if you are not interested.




That guy really got on my nerves, he was juxtaposing just about every character in “Harms Way” to that “mini”, RDM only used Tigh?

[kingfish]

dvo is correct. Comparing In Harm's Way and this new Galactica is like comparing apples and oranges. No way is Paul Tigh, Eddington. Dvo had a point. Would you punch Eddington in the face? Starbuck or should I say Starduck manages to make Tigh say, "Ouch." after she clocks him one. Eddington would have mopped the floor with her. But the scene is so ridiculous that it should have never been shot in the first place. Billy Bob Adama is no "Rock" Torrey. Wayne was a legend. NO one can ever fill his shoes.

[Antelope]

I don't think I am trying to say "In Harm's Way" is an exact twin of the mini. I do think it is obvious that more than the majority of characters and scenes are the same in the two movies. As such if the mini was called "In Harm's Way" I think the majority of people would have a much easier time saying this is a reimagined "In Harm's Way" than "Saga of a Star World". If you read the whole thread I do talk about characters being combinations or splices of characters from "In Harm's Way" not twins, although Adama for Rockwell Torrey is just about a direct lift.

I also agree with Jewels that a few of us have enjoyed talking about the subject. Since to me the comparisons seem like getting hit over the head with a two by four. If you can't or don't want to see it I thank you for reading the thread but ask politely that you reserve throwing bombs.

I originally came to BattlestarGalacticaClub and then to Colonial Fleets specifically because I wanted to talk about this subject. Previously I found out that at least at the time you could not get posted if you went into any detail on this subject at SCIFI. I think this hits SCIFI a little too hard. I also mentioned although not on this thread that if what I think is true that there may be some legal issues involved at some point. "In Harm's Way" is not credited in the mini. I don't know if Moore and crew or those that financed the mini paid or secured the rights to "remake" "In Harm's Way" or the book it is based on.

Please no replies on this question:
I wonder whether the goal of some of the harshest replies is to close this thread not discuss the subject?

Before I finish I would like to discuss President Roslin, her sidekick, and the CIC woman he kissed. When I conclude I want to look at the differences between the two and speculate why they are there and what this may mean if this is a series pilot.

[Sept17th]

I have to agree with Antelope with out even seeing Harms Way. The title of thread gives you subject, Antelope has made attemps at a well thought out discussion on the subject. Others appear interested. Of course there are plenty of Mini-Series Sucks threads we can go back to because that subject has not been done to death.

[Dawg]

I've never seen In Harm's Way, either; but based on what Moore has said and antelope's rather exhaustive comparison between the characters, I strongly suspect the similarities between IHW and the mini probably outweigh the differences.

At my next opportinity I intend to watch In Harm's Way.

I have noted in particular the splitting or combining of character traits antelope has pointed out; I have also noted that antelope has not found much comparison between the characters in the mini and TOS BSG - only IHW (the basis for the claim that the mini is a remake of IHW). (I'd like to also point out that us TOS fans have been saying the same thing for a long time, now: the mini characters bear no resemblance to the TOS characters of same or similar name or position.)

Now, sure, antelope's also sticking to the contention that by the end of the mini it was BSG and not a remake of IHW (a contention I have yet to get a grip on, myself - I can't understand how a remake of one movie can suddenly become the remake of another), but that may yet become clear to me.

Now - I know (and so do most of you) that the mini bears little if any resemblance to TOS BSG. I submit that antelope may very well have found one reason why: Moore remade IHW and simply overlayed a few design elements (and stole a few scenes) from other sci-fi efforts - BSG, among others.

Which makes me, for one, wonder why, since he was hired to remake BSG, he chose instead to remake a 40 year old WWII movie. :eek:

I am looking forward to antelope's continued analysis; perhaps the answers to some of our questions of recent months might become clearer.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Darth Marley]

Dawg, a quick aside bit here.
In some post from the distant past,it was suggested that for legal reasons a BSG continuation was not possible for now,and someone suggested a continuation with the characters you desire,but named "RagTagFleet" or some such.
Many continuation supporters accepted that they could live with the product they wanted under a different name.
Given that acceptance in the face of adversity,what is the big deal about the label "REAL BSG?"

[Dawg]

Originally posted by Darth Marley
Dawg, a quick aside bit here.
In some post from the distant past,it was suggested that for legal reasons a BSG continuation was not possible for now,and someone suggested a continuation with the characters you desire,but named "RagTagFleet" or some such.
Many continuation supporters accepted that they could live with the product they wanted under a different name.
Given that acceptance in the face of adversity,what is the big deal about the label "REAL BSG?"

Very good questions, Darth.

Talking about "legal reasons", as I understand it, one theory as to why the mini was made at all is that it was made in order to preserve the BSG copyrights for Universal. I really don't know how it works, but after a time of inactivity a copyright will expire and either revert to its original owner or become "public domain". Something Bonnie Hammer said, apparently, about "preserving the franchise" lends credence to this theory.

Tell me, do you agree with the assertion that the mini bears little resemblance to TOS? One of the questions in my mind (and others, I believe) is, basically, why they didn't just remake Saga if all they were interested in was to maintain the copyright. Instead, they chose to erase 99% of TOS in favor of Moore's story. Of course, that's not the question being discussed here, but it is an important one if we are interested in how this all came about.

As far as a continuation under a different name is concerned, though, I'm one of those who would be OK with the TOS universe under another name; not that such a thing would silence my grumblings entirely. After all, since TOS came first and the mini later, it's the mini that should be showing under another name; that would only be fair.

"Long Live the REAL Battlestar Galactica." Kind of a rallying cry, I guess, based on the very thing we've been discussing, and closely related to the rest of your questions. I know I share the view of many who feel that, because the mini's characters and story are so different than the TOS characters and story, there isn't enough similarity to see them as remotely the same; therefore, TOS is the "real" Battlestar Galactica. If you or anyone else finds that assertion the least offensive, consider the word "real" as shorthand for my views: there are too many differences between TOS and the mini to consider them the same story, and I am pro-continuation of the TOS universe.

Does that answer your questions, Darth? :salute:

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[dvo47p]

Originally posted by repcisg
This is a very good thread, I like the parallels you have drawn here.

Moore did not do Sci-fi any favors using In Harms Way as a model, for the remake. In Harms Way was it self is a composite of a number of battles and personalities drawn from the Guadalcanal campaign. Sky Hook was Rock Torrey’s (a Halsey) plan to take Gavabutu (Guadalcanal)

RDM did take NROTC @ Cornell, “In Harms Way” was a good movie, and many missed Otto Preminger’s antiwar theme. |

Indeed repcisg the many sea battles that beget Iron Bottom Sound never had a movie to inspire RDM

Originally posted by dvo47p Sarcasm as in mockery, RDM’s dubious claim to have used ‘In Harm’s Way’ is a best an analogy, albeit a piss poor one. WW II was fresh in the American consciousness. ‘In Harm’s Way’s’ end, we see Wayne broken and depressed in a hospital, with an amputated leg, a dead son, a dead substitute son (Eddington). Dead friends, and a dead crew. What has he gained? Guilt and probably irremediable loss. Well, he still has Neal, but one gets the sense that he's hanging on to her like a life preserver rather than as a life-mate. Victory and its attendant glories have come at too high a price for Wayne. Even the cast credits at the end are somewhat shocking, with its roiling sea storms and explosions, finally ending with a detonation of an atomic bomb! ‘In Harm's Way’ may be the subtlest anti-war picture ever made.

‘Battlestar Galactica 2003’ v. ‘In Harm’s Way’ I shall endeavor to draw a parallel, hmm Ok piss in a bottle by a performance artist @ Agora Gallery in Soho. v. Leonardo da Vinci’s Mona Lisa @ Le Louvre someplace near The Capital of oh say France?

Schlock scifi v. ‘maybe the subtlest anti-war picture ever made”

Originally posted by Darth Marley Dawg, a quick aside bit here. In some post from the distant past, it was suggested that for legal reasons a BSG continuation was not possible for now, and someone suggested a continuation with the characters you desire, but named "Rag Tag Fleet" or some such. Many continuation supporters accepted that they could live with the product they wanted under a different name. Given that acceptance in the face of adversity, what is the big deal about the label "REAL BSG?"

Glen A. Larson v. Vivendi/Universal was settled out of court, Saga of a Star War is not in the purview of that Sony Bono Law as it was made before ’78 for TV. BG: 2003 was made, Basically, give it a new life – “to maintain the franchise”. Hell here is the link read: http://www.cinescape.com/0/Editorial.asp?aff_id=0&this_cat=Television&action=page&obj_id=35364

Battlestar Galactica is analogy not to a pre WW II treaty cruiser, but an Aircraft Carrier in Space!

Admiral Torrey answered to a chain of command, he bypasses Broderick ergo Cmdr. Oweyn. Petty jealousy not espionage was that plotline.

Originally posted by antelope526 Admiral Broderick (Baltar) Both are morally challenged.
HELLO Call the Inquirer!
Originally posted by antelope526 Admiral Broderick (Baltar) has a sidekick named Commander Neil Owen (Cylon 6). Commander Owen (Cylon 6) is the real brain of the duo. Both manipulate their superior for their own personal benefit not the benefit of society or the military situation. Commander Owen (Cylon 6) although a military officer (human-Cylon) is primarily motivated by how he will appear after the war in his position in the American (Cylon) government.

Never mind the Enquirer would not believe this http://www.***banned site*** felgercarb!

Originally posted by kingfish dvo is correct. Comparing In Harm's Way and this new Galactica is like comparing apples and oranges. No way is Paul Tigh, Eddington. Dvo had a point. Would you punch Eddington in the face? But the scene is so ridiculous that it should have never been shot in the first place. Billy Bob Adama is no "Rock" Torrey.

Step down, next?

For Sagan’ sake, did I say “next” UNHOLY felgercarb! Ronald D. Moore did mention in that very same filmjerk.com article that his Battlestar Galactica 2003 was also influenced by Alfred Hitchcock!

Jesus H. Christ, Ronald D. Moore is a misunderstood genius, or that bunch @ http://www.***banned site*** now has an endless black hole of inaccurate, baseless, unfounded and specious nonsense from our http://www.***banned site*** twit, keyboard-gaffer, nincompoop GOODGOD HE MIGHT RUN RIOT with Cylon’s lurking amongst Hitchcock’s vast filmology, SEE $#*&*+!%>>>> Family Plot, Frenzy, Topaz, Torn Curtain, Marnie, The Birds, Psycho, North by Northwest, Vertigo, Suspicion, The Wrong Man, The Man Who Knew Too Much, The Trouble with Harry, To Catch a Thief, Rear Window, Dial M for Murder, I Confess, Strangers on a Train, Stage Fright, Under Capricorn, Rope, Notorious, Bon Voyage, Lifeboat, Shadow of a Doubt, Saboteur, Suspicion, Mr. & Mrs. Smith, Foreign Correspondent, Rebecca, Jamaica Inn, Sabotage, The 39 Steps or for our hyper little http://www.***banned site*** bon viant, The Man Who Knew Too LITTLE?

[larocque6689]

Sh!t Jon - no fewer than four references to one of your favorite web hangouts. And most of the Hitch movies you could stack in a single paragraph.

In defence of RDM, the Bamber character was more likeable than Crazy Otto's version...

Maybe we can build a G2003 episode around "The Trouble with Harry" and find out who killed Fred Astaire.

[shiningstar]

excellent answer Dawg. Very nice.

[Gunstar Aries]

Very interesting, antelope. I had no idea "Harm's way" played a part. THAT movie is pretty faithful to the book, but not exact. Thanks for bringing this up.

Regards,

GA

[dvo47p]

Oh never mind

[dvo47p]

Originally posted by larocque6689
Sh!t Jon - no fewer than four references to one of your favorite web hangouts. And most of the Hitch movies you could stack in a single paragraph.

In defence of RDM, the Bamber character was more likeable than Crazy Otto's version...

Maybe we can build a G2003 episode around "The Trouble with Harry" and find out who killed Fred Astaire.

I'M BANNED @ http://www.galactica2003.net THAT FAKE ZAC SHIT, JOHN

[Dawg]

AH-HA! :D

NOW I understand! :thumbsup:

I couldn't wrap my brain around your contention, antelope, that a remake of In Harm's Way could somehow end as a remake of BSG. But now, thanks to your last post in this thread, I understand:

http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5947

I know, now, how you can say that with a straight face. Thank the Lords of Kobol, I understand!!

At the end of BSG, Adama has one surviving son. At the end of the mini, William "Husker" Adama has one surviving son.

At the end of BSG, Apollo looks to be getting cozy with Sheba. At the end of the mini, Lee "Apollo" Adama may, potentially, have an interest in Kara "Starbuck" Thrace. So, both have a pending love interest at the end.

Etcetera.

Fascinating!

You have done it, antelope! You have proven my contention that the mini IS NOT, at heart, Battlestar Galactica!!!!!

By your own analysis, the characters in the mini are rewritten characters from In Harm’s Way. They did not come from TOS. The Cylons did not come from TOS. In fact, if it weren’t for the names (most of them pilot callsigns in the mini) there would be nothing recognizably BSG about it (with the exception of the Viper, of course, the one design element necessary for anything to be called BSG).

That the characters who share that tiny link to TOS BSG wind up in similar situations is completely and utterly immaterial. They aren’t characters carried over and updated from TOS, they are characters from In Harm’s Way. Again, your own analysis proves this!

A Truth: In order to remake one piece of material, you must actually remake that material.

Moore overlayed a very thin veneer over his remake of In Harm’s Way to make it look like BSG. But veneers to not a remake make. Certainly, the mini character called “Apollo” has a potential love interest in the character called “Kara Thrace”. But because the character called “Apollo” is a character (or half a character) from In Harm’s Way, this does not at all equal the point in TOS BSG where Apollo and Sheba are getting cozy.

Different source material entirely. Different characters entirely.

I understand, now, and I understand fully. There is the flaw in your argument, antelope. In order for the mini to wind up more or less at the same point as when TOS ended, it needed to have the characters from TOS. That’s not what’s there. Your own analysis proves it.

You rock, antelope! :thumbsup:

Edit: And, as I think about it, I find that the anxious feeling I've been developing the last week or so has gone away. This contention has been niggling at the back of my mind, and I am very grateful to antelope for giving me the key. I am at peace.

Peace to you all.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Antelope]

I think we are at the same point but call it different things.

The bottom line I think we can both agree on:

The mini is a flawed remake of "In Harm's Way" not "Saga of a Star World".

We may not agree but you can see where I come to believe:

Moore changed (adapted may be a better word) the "characters" from "In Harm's Way" so he could start a new Battlestar series with the "characters" at the end of TOS season 1.

I actually thing we pretty much agree on things at this point and and are more talking about semantics.

I'm not versed on the cut and paste option on this site I wonder if you or a mod could put that reply from the other thread here so people wouldn't need to jump between the two threads.

Thanks for the conversation/debate dawg.

[kingfish]

Apollo and Sheba were getting cozy. Season 2 had Sheba being blown to bits in the opener.

[Dawg]

Originally posted by kingfish
Apollo and Sheba were getting cozy. Season 2 had Sheba being blown to bits in the opener.

Only in the preproduction "notes", Kingfish. We'll never know for sure.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[kingfish]

http://www.geocities.com/sjpaxton/yeartwo.html

[kingfish]

Originally posted by Dawg
Only in the preproduction "notes", Kingfish. We'll never know for sure.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:


Thank the Lords of Kobol for that. Cain as an android STUNK big time. :D

[Antelope]

I have been enjoying the other threads so much I haven't finished what I started here so I will try to get this done. This will be a good thread to explain the remake/reimagination/ripoff (pick your word) for someone new to the fleet.

Maggie the head nurse of "In Harm's Way" is the charcater that President Roslin is loosely based on. Both are in charge of the casualties of war. Maggie has the wounded soldier, sailors, and marines while Roslin has the refugees. Both are "in charge" in their perspective worlds. Both have a run in with Admiral Torrey (Commander Adama) in the middle of the war. In the case of "In Harm's Way" Maggie unwittingly orders Admiral Torrey (Adama) around while in the mini Roslin knowingly orders Adama. Both characters are a focal point for the estranged son of Admiral Torrey (Adama). The scene of Roslin dealing under stress on Colonial 1 is loosely based on Maggie in the field hospital. The final scenes (human not cylon) of both movies contain Maggie (Roslin) and Admiral Torrey (Adama). Both focus on the future of their campaigns and are introspective on what just happened.

[Antelope]

Maggie the character President Roslin is based on had a beautiful nurse sidekick. This nurse was young but naive and ended up playing with fire. Roslin's assistant, who's name I forgot (shows how much impact I think he had) is based on Maggie's sidekick nurse. The scenes with Duella and Roslin's assistant are very loosely based on the naive "tease" scenes between Eddington, Ensign Torrey, and the young nurse. I felt that as played in the mini both characters were superfluous and their little flirtation added nothing to the mini. However the fact that Moore felt a need to put them in and put a very watered down version of the Eddington/Torrey/nurse tease and rape inuendo goes to the fact that he remade "In Harm's Way". The entire Eddington rape subplot could not work in the mini but for some reason Moore couldn't let go of every related scene. To understand what I am getting at on these characters I do think you have to watch "In Harm's Way". The only thing I think Moore may have felt he needed was some very youthful characters for eye wash. Maybe they only served to be young naive people swept up in events far greater than themselves.

[Antelope]

What do I take from what Moore did?

I think from my view of the mini and "In Harm's Way" that Moore has a plan for how he wants the mini-based series to go. To view his thoughts we need to look at what he changed from "In Harm's Way" and what are non-related original issues in the mini. If this is an example of what Moore plans to do I would speculate he plans to rewrite old but popular stories into the Galactica mythos while running a continuous subplot of original ideas that build on the old or new mythos. In a way this is not too different than TOS. The best stories in TOS and many of the lesser ones also were remakes into the Galactica mythos of old favorites. Some remakes I already have seen mentioned on other threads in the TOS genre include, Patton, Midway, The Dirty Dozen, The Guns of Navarrone, and The Battle of the OK Corral. I am sure others could point out more.

The main ideas added to the mini not found "In Harm's Way" include the concepts of religion especially expressed by the cylons (modern Islamic fundamentalism?), the enemy within is a REAL enemy not a self serving personal agenda, the exodus from the homeland (as opposed to a conquest of enemy land).

The character end state in "In Harm's Way" ends with the majority of the characters dead. I believe the end state of the mini however was based to give Moore the opportunity to write human relationship stories based on the TOS type characters you see near the end of season 1. I would look for:

Adama and Roslin are in a similar relationship to Adama and Siress Tinia (new leader of the Council of 12) at the end of season 1.

Lee Adama and Kara Thrace are very similar to the relationship of Apollo and Sheba at the end of season 1.

Tyrol and Boomer may end up in the Starbuck/Athena/ Casseopeia love triangle if they throw Callie in the loop.

Baltar was with the fleet at the end of TOS season 1 but as a known prisoner he had little use for future episodes. In his current mini incarnation it frees the writers to use a fan favorite.

I think the mini series universe may not be as different as we think but only time will tell. A mini lover I think has much to look forward to but I also think a mini hater can hold out hope that a mini based series may be returning to its roots in TOS after all.

[Antelope]

With "In Harm's Way" on AMC tonight I thought it a good time to bring this thread up front. For those of you not familiar with the In Harm's Way = Moore's Battlestar Galactica concept this is a great thread to read and then go watch the movie tonight.

[Eric Paddon]

I've watched the movie twice, and for me it's the worst movie I've ever seen with a Pearl Harbor backdrop, and believe me it's not easy for me to say that I think there's a movie that actually makes "Pearl Harbor" seem good!

I've mentioned the 60s go-go dancing in the opening party sequence which sets the wrong tone. I also can't approve of what Otto did to the real life CINCPAC at the time of the attack, Admiral Husband Kimmel who as played by Franchot Tone really gets an unfair rap. It's interesting to note that to avoid a lawsuit, Preminger lists his character in the credits not by name but as "CINCPAC 1" and likewise Henry Fonda is not identified as Admiral Nimitz but as "CINCPAc 2."

Ironically, I felt the entire Adama-Lee exchange of the miniseries owed itself less to "In Harm's Way" and more to "Midway" where it seemed like the opening conversation was cribbed almost completely from the Charlton Heston-Edward Albert exchanges of that movie (this annoying subplot was what dragged down an otherwise fine movie about the battle).

[Antelope]

Ironically, I felt the entire Adama-Lee exchange of the miniseries owed itself less to "In Harm's Way" and more to "Midway" where it seemed like the opening conversation was cribbed almost completely from the Charlton Heston-Edward Albert exchanges of that movie (this annoying subplot was what dragged down an otherwise fine movie about the battle).

Interesting observation although I still go with more of a Captain Torrey versus Ensign Torrey moment. Ron Moore is supposedly a fan of naval history. It also seems that the Pegasus episodes are partially based on the Coral Sea and Midway battles (along with the movie Patton). Since Moore says he wants to redo the Pegasus episode possibly I wouldn't be surprised if this is not the last time we talk about the movie "Midway" and how it relates to Battlestar Galactica.

I also notice a trend: If you liked "In Harm's Way" you liked the mini. If you didn't you don't.

:)

[dvo47p]

I believe you missed the point of this thread.

I've watched the movie twice, and for me it's the worst movie I've ever seen with a Pearl Harbor backdrop, and believe me it's not easy for me to say that I think there's a movie that actually makes "Pearl Harbor" seem good!

Ron D. Moore based Col. Tigh on ‘In Harm’s Way’ character Cmdr./Capt. Paul Eddington by Kirk Douglas, it did not work.

http://www.filmjerk.com/nuke/article354.html
Colonel Tigh, the Galactica's XO. The first time we meet Tigh is during Kara's morning jog around the ship, in which we see the after effects of a night of heavy drinking. Tigh drinks because he knows his wife is sleeping with half the population of Geminon while he's on active duty...

John Paul Jones November 16, 1778, 'I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail FAST; for I indend to go in harm's way.'

[Eric Paddon]

I also notice a trend: If you liked "In Harm's Way" you liked the mini. If you didn't you don't.

:)

LOL, I suppose we should take a survey on that sometime. It is interesting though that for me it's one of the few movies from the era of classic Hollywood that I had a strong negative reaction to. It's not just the soap opera of it though, it's the disconnect to the real world that seems to run through the whole film. I never hear any references to familiar battles like Coral Sea, Midway etc. or references to real commanders in the Pacific and the whole congressman serving out there in the Pacific subplot is just historically ludicrous (as is the idea of a character of Burgess Meredith's background being privy to Top Secret info).

And to carry that further, with "In Harm's Way" seeming so disconnected from the real World War II, it's not surprising that for me Moore's miniseries redid that sense of disconnect by taking familiar names and ideas and putting them into a setting and story that was as unauthentic from a Galactica standpoint as "In Harm's Way" seemed unauthentic from a World War II standpoint.

[Eric Paddon]

I believe you missed the point of this thread.


I'm not sure I understand what point there is to miss. We're all aware of Moore borrowing from "In Harm's Way" because he thinks it represents a great piece of moviemaking that the Galactica story should emulate. My take on that is that the movie isn't worth emulating in any new imagining, least of all Galactica.

[Senmut]

Whether one likes IHW or not, the fact remains that RDM blatantly copied it, put a bunch of FX in it, and called it Galactica. It's Galactica like my Plymouth is a Bently. Uh uh. It is just one more proof, were any more neded, that RDM is a third rate, low-talent hack, who parasitizes the works and ideas of others, and calls himself a filmmaker. God help whatever he gets his hands on next!

[ernie90125]

Antelope526. For once I agree with you. I have great respect for what you have had to say and the parallels you have pointed out.... This is a very impressive effort....

Can I suggest you re-write this onto one sheet. With all the Galactica plotlines one the first line, and the 'In Harm's Way' plotlines on the second line. Then another Galactica on this third line, and another 'In Harm's Way on the fourth line etc etc etc.

I think you raise some VERY important issues here, and this sheet you could create could become the basis for a letter writing campaign. It is worthy of it.....

No studio would be able to ignore receiving letter after letter after letter, highlighting these very important issues.... They would have to do something about it....

Contacting whoever owns the rights to 'In Harm's Way' would also be a worthwhile idea...

Great Work !

Ernie90125

[Darth Marley]

A letter campaign?
For what purpose?

[ernie90125]

Darth Marley. To highlight the possible motives for creating the Re-Imagined Galactica were possibly not for the benefit of Galactica, and gain responses on topics like :


Dawg : Which makes me, for one, wonder why, since he was hired to remake BSG, he chose instead to remake a 40 year old WWII movie

Antelope526 : I just think this is far more than inspiration (bordering on plagarism since no credit is givin at the end of the mini).

Senmut : Whether one likes IHW or not, the fact remains that RDM blatantly copied it, put a bunch of FX in it, and called it Galactica


I also think it is likely some people would like to question the credibility of RDM. To further question the credibility of the mini, and cause people to ask just what it is all about....

HEADLINE :
TOS fans left rejected after re-imagined mini ruins BSG, and is exposed as plagarised work...


I think it would cause a lot of discussion amongst 'the powers that be'............

[Eric Paddon]

Trying to stir up a Moore is guilty of plagiarism campaign would IMO be a colossal waste of time. Moore is guilty of using a bad movie as the inspiration for his bad miniseries, but that is not plagiarism anymore than TOS "plagiarized" Guns Of Navarone and Dirty Dozen for "Gun On Ice Planet Zero" or the original Trek series plagiarized "Enemy Below" for "Balance Of Terror."

[ernie90125]

Maybe, but this is 2003/4 I think the audience asks for more then they did in the days of the 1970s....

I also think BSG deserved better, I thought that then and I think that now....

[Eric Paddon]

Granted, but trying to stir up a campaign centering on his use of a bad movie as his prime inspiration is just not worth it. It seems to me that you would have to by default accept the legal rationale behind the whole bogus George Lucas lawsuit against Galactica in order to make any kind of "plagiarism" argument stick against Moore on this. I think it's a lot more effective to just note that Moore's source material that inspires him only validates the judgment of his miniseries as a bad story concept.

[dvo47p]

I'm not sure I understand what point there is to miss. We're all aware of Moore borrowing from "In Harm's Way" because he thinks it represents a great piece of moviemaking that the Galactica story should emulate. My take on that is that the movie isn't worth emulating in any new imagining, least of all Galactica.


All this jabberwocky comparing Ron Moore’s “Galactica-lite” to Otto Preminger's "In Harm's Way" is not in the apples and oranges arena.

Ron Moore only mentioned the wife/bottle comparison of Col. Tigh to Capt. Paul Eddington; he liked "In Harm's Way"! He is the WGA card holder, no poster hear (MOI AUSSI) has TV & movie credits, and it shows, in spades.

Spurious posts comparing characters of the two are analogies to natterring nincompoops using a mirror to compare anal orifices. Ron Moore also used Alfred Hitchcock in the same script mission statement. Now go forth and dissect Rear Window, Vertigo, North by Northwest, 39 Steps & Family Plot, if you can.

[Antelope]

Although I think any letter campaigns on the issue are a lost cause I have speculated that if SCIFI and Moore did not secure the rights to remake "In Harm's Way" there may be a real law suit out there. I don't know anything about where SCIFI is in the rights issue. For all I know they may have them or may not need them. I do question why there is no credit since I think the mini is more "In Harm's Way" then "Saga of A Star World".

I liked "In Harm's Way" so I was not fired up when I realized what happened. I was however very surprised. When I tried to write a thread on the subject at SCIFI I found the subject embargoed as a thread starter. This was the original reason I found Battlestargalacticaclub and later colonial fleets in the first place.

[Eric Paddon]

I'm afraid I'm not getting the point of your post. Seems to me that given how much inspiration "In Harm's Way" gives Moore (by his own admission), that a dissection of the film itself and why it doesn't make for a good inspiration for Galactica isn't exactly out of bounds. From my standpoint, the very fact that he uses such a very unimaginative story when it comes to constructing the character and atmosphere of his story is reason enough to be critical.

[Eric Paddon]

Although I think any letter campaigns on the issue are a lost cause I have speculated that if SCIFI and Moore did not secure the rights to remake "In Harm's Way" there may be a real law suit out there. I don't know anything about where SCIFI is in the rights issue. For all I know they may have them or may not need them. I do question why there is no credit since I think the mini is more "In Harm's Way" then "Saga of A Star World".


I don't think that point would be disputed, but using another movie property or basic story concept and applying it to new surroundings has always been regarded as fair game in TV. Classic Galactica did it in their share of episodes, and even unshot episodes, as the unfilmed "Two For Twilly" was meant to be a blatant borrowing of the whole premise of the Alec Guinness comedy "Captain's Paradise."

Now if Moore had made a movie set in World War II in the Pacifc using this kind of general plot, he'd be in trouble but not for something like this.

[Dawg]

Obvously, dvo doesn't see the connection you do, antelope.

And, no, going after Moore over a charge of "plagerism" wouldn't get beyond first base; it's foolish to even speculate. You'd need matching scenes and dialogue before there would be documentary evidence of any such thing. That he was influenced by another's work does not mean prosecutable plagerism.

Frankly, dvo, as a fellow TOS fan I'm surprised you aren't on this bandwagon; it's so much easier to dimiss the Moore mini as not being BSG if it was actualy a remake of In Harms Way, isn't it? ;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Antelope]

dvo47p:
Now that you repeated your personal attacks once again on the same thread on people interested in this subject please move on or review the entire thread again and count how many times you called us idiots etc.

If you don't see the obvious just move on and leave the rest of us alone.

Do you have a stake in supressing this idea? It sure seems to strike a nerve with you? (No answer required or requested)

[ernie90125]

Hi all. My purpose of suggesting a letter writing campaign was to highlight to studios and others of the poor basis the mini-series is based upon. We have seen this all along, however, perhaps they might see this now ?

I think if you create a list, as I suggested in my first post in this thread, and as I have now been doing, you get enough of the idea of how the two are so similar it cannot be coincidental.....

Dawg :
You'd need matching scenes and dialogue before there would be documentary evidence of any such thing.

No, I don't think you would actually. There have been numerous examples of litigation based upon similarities without exact dialogue.... If you were to create a timeline of events, and character arcs, and shows how the almost exactly matched BSG:2003, then this would be enough to show the very similar characters were following basicially the same adventure.....

There is nothing wrong with putting new people in famous situations to see how the new characters might cope... But the same people in the same adventure, encountering the same problems resulting in the same solutions is waaaay beyond that......

I think this strikes to the heart of the problem....

[ernie90125]

Dawg, does this below example give you enough of a 'You'd need matching scenes and dialogue before there would be documentary evidence of any such thing.'

>He meets his son after years as a result of military orders. He has an awkward scene >where he tries to talk with his son for the first time. To break the ice he asks his son >about his son's mother, his former wife. His son replies that she is remarried. They do not >patch up their differences at that time.

The SAME reason for the meeting
The SAME characters in that meeting
The SAME awkward feel to the scene
The SAME first question
The SAME answer to this question
The SAME outcome of this meeting

[Antelope]

Now that the mini is going to series it is a non-issue. There is no In Harm's Way series to copy so everything he does will have a new inspiration. The show will live and die on ratings not letter campaigns etc.

Some people think "In Harm's Way" is a classic (that's why it's on the AMC <American Movie Classics>). As such I think many in Hollywood would consider it a stroke of genius instead of plagarism. Even if everyone came to believe it is a remake of "In Harm's Way" I doubt that would impact anything. I am willing to bet those in the inner circle know full well by now what Moore did assuming they didn't know all along.

[ernie90125]

In that case Antelope526, why did they pay a lot (I presume) for something any old 'tom dick or harry' could have done..... ??????????

[ernie90125]

For that matter, why didn't he base it on Saga of a Star World - I thought that is what he was meant to be doing in the first place ?????

[Antelope]

4,000,000 people will watch a reimagined "Battlestar Galactica" not a remade "In Harm's Way"!

I also don't think that it will have any bearing on where Moore is going in the series. I think it is the differences from "In Harm's Way" that tell us that. I hope we are all pleasantly surprised by the upcoming series. Time will tell. Let's not argue that however until we see the first episode.

I have hope...but will switch sides if I think the series sucks!

[dvo47p]

Obviously, dvo doesn't see the connection you do, antelope.
And, no, going after Moore over a charge of "plagiarism" wouldn't get beyond first base; it's foolish to even speculate. You'd need matching scenes and dialogue before there would be documentary evidence of any such thing. That he was influenced by another's work does not mean prosecutable plagiarism.

Frankly, dvo, as a fellow TOS fan I'm surprised you aren't on this bandwagon; it's so much easier to dismiss the Moore mini as not being BSG if it was actually a remake of In Harms Way, isn't it? ;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

Ron Moore’s Galactica lite was “Saga of a Star World”, dvo does not see the connection that is not there! Ron Moore in no way used, plagiarized, borrowed, by-passed or nodded toward “In Harm’s Way”, other than Col. Tigh being a cuckold & boozer. Was anyone raped? NO. If any “bandwagon” existed, I would be on it. Absolutely no one can establish what never existed!

Nurse Maggie Haynes is not President Rosalind

Carroll O’Conner/ is not Chief Tyrol

Rock Torrey is not Adama

Lt. (j.g.) Jeremiah 'Jere' Torrey is not Lee or Zac

Cmdr. Neal Owynn is not Baltar

RONALD D. MOORE HAS TAKEN GLEN A. LARSON’S BATTLESTAR GALACTICA "Saga of a Sar War" AND RUN WITH IT, NOT “IN HARM’S WAY”, GET OVER IT!

Indeed Ron Moore is using TOS episodes! I E - Lost Planet of the Gods, The Lost Warrior, The Long Patrol & Take the Celestra are in the works. Pray tell how does “In Harm’s Way” have a thing to do with these episodes? That’s five outta his thirteen episodes so far.


In that case Antelope526, why did they pay a lot (I presume) for something any old 'tom dick or harry' could have done..... ??????????


THE SCIFI CHANNEL DID! SPOT ONE ORIGINAL SHOW IN THIS RESUME!
http://imdb.com/name/nm0601822

Spot the “original” as in not done before by someone better show?

[Antelope]

dvo47p:
Please reread the entire thread so you can see where you already said the same thing and were already replied to.

Even if we give you that noone else is based on "In Harm's Way" for the sake of argument please expand beyond Commander Eddington to Admiral Torrey since in an interview I read and you're welcome to find in an internet search Ron Moore himself said that BOTH Colonel Tigh AND COMMANDER ADAMA are based on characters from "In Harm's Way" specifically Commander Eddington and Captain/Admiral Torrey.

I leave it to the reader and viewer to see everything else Ron Moore doesn't say.

[Eric Paddon]

[SIZE=3]Ron Moore’s Galactica lite was “Saga of a Star World”, dvo does not see the connection that is not there! Ron Moore in no way used, plagiarized, borrowed, by-passed or nodded toward “In Harm’s Way”, other than Col. Tigh being a cuckold & boozer. Was anyone raped? NO. ]

That's only because what was considered cinematic rape in the 1960s is what today's writers think you can depict as routine run of the mill stuff as we saw in the over-the-top sex scenes. This goes back to the idea of how that movie is a sex-obsessed soap opera as is the miniseries, which means drawing from "In Harms Way" and not "Saga."

"RONALD D. MOORE HAS TAKEN GLEN A. LARSON’S BATTLESTAR GALACTICA "Saga of a Sar War" AND RUN WITH IT, NOT “IN HARM’S WAY”, GET OVER IT!"

The man admitted his regard for "In Harms Way" so that makes it fair game to note the curious influence of this not so good movie on the not so good results. I'm not for letter campaigns but I'm all for citing the examples to make a value judgment of the badness of the miniseries.

In the meantime, there's no need to shout over this. It's an interesting sidebar to add to the miniseries discussion mix regardless of what one thinks.

[Antelope]

In the meantime, there's no need to shout over this. It's an interesting sidebar to add to the miniseries discussion mix regardless of what one thinks.

Thank you and my thoughts exactly when I started this thread a long time ago! :salute:

Whether you like or dislike the mini I thought this idea can give us some insight into what Ron Moore did and maybe where he is going.

On the old days of the mini good and mini bad forums this was originally a thread on the mini-bad forum writen by myself a person who is pro-mini. Sometimes insight doesn't have a side. :eek:

If you don't see it or don't agree just take this thread with a grain of salt and read some of the other insight and discussion on the forum. ;)

There are no winners and losers at Colonial Fleets just fellow fans who may see things from a different point of view from time to time! :)

[ernie90125]

Here are two quotes taken from various articles about a similar situation about the film Chicken Run, taken from online news site :

The multi-million pound lawsuit papers cite a number of striking similarities between Escape From Cold Ditch and Chicken Run.

An example is given in another article :

The central character in both stories is a female chicken -- called Ginger in "Chicken Run" and Fleur in "Escape from Cold Ditch" -- who leads the escape from a farm, the papers claim.


Hmmmm....interesting....

[dvo47p]

Does anybody other than me realize that the mini is more of a remake of "In Harm's Way", a black and white classic John Wayne movie than it is a re imagination of Battlestar Galactica?

I am a pro-mini person but unlike most those nights I was looking forward to seeing an old friend, Battlestar Galactica when unexpectedly another old friend came instead!

If you never saw "In Harm's Way" go rent it. Most of what Moore was trying to do will suddenly become clear.

Ok when somebody tells Adama the Cylon Base Star “Yamato” is coming to attack the Battlestar Galactica, and operation Sky Hook is doomed to fail if we lose this battle, Tigh rapes Kara, Rosin marries Adama, the Galactica is blown away, I’ll concede this thread has merit, until then & only then.

I’ll hold my breath because Universal had to make the “Saga of a Star War” in the words of Bonnie Hammer ‘to main the franchise’.

http://www.cinescape.com/0/Editorial.asp?aff_id=0&this_cat=Television&action=page&obj_id=35364

[ernie90125]

(There are no winners and losers at Colonial Fleets just fellow fans who may see things from a different point of view from time to time!)

You are right of course. Perhaps it is that I was 'hurt' by what RDM did to BSG, something I had loved all my life. Then he did that to it...... Then I realise that what he did to it wasn't even his own creativity, but another's......

I have being trying to come up with fan fiction, working things out in my head. If something comes into my head that I recognise from somewhere else, I always dump it....

But it would seem this is not the case in the professional world.... As I read all of the MANY similiarities between to two creations, I wondered why 'writers' are needed anymore. Why don't they just put it in a washing machine, as see what new comes out of what already exists.....

I think this shows a lack of creativity, from someone who has damaged BSG in my view, and hurt my childhood favorite.....

I give Antelope my greatest thanks for bringing this to the fleets attention...............

[ernie90125]

dvo47p You know it was people making hurtful posts that lost us CF for a while..... Please think about the effect of what you may quite in your many posts on a topic you have been politely encouraged to no longer contribute to.....

[Antelope]

I wonder whether Moore and crew paid something to use "In Harm's Way" or at least spoke to some legal people about the issue. I also wonder how long Otto Preminger's estate can legally retain the rights to the book. Maybe it is a non-issue. I don't know but thought someone should have checked into this and for all I know maybe they did. Personally I remember that Eddie Murphy's "Coming to America" was successfully sued for a lot less than what we see here. I do think it sad that no credit was given whether they had the rights or didn't need them.

[ernie90125]

Antelope526 My replies have generally been along the theme of not legal, but moral and giving 'the best you can do' especially for a show he claimed he loved.......

I don't know if there is a legal case here, but I certainly think there is a case for a loss of credibility amonst peers and very much among fans.....

[Eric Paddon]

[SIZE=5]
I’ll concede this thread has merit, until then & only then.


If you don't think the thread has merit, then may I suggest you take advantage of the dozens of other threads in this board that might be more to your liking? That's one of the things I like about this place over the other one that I quit. There's an endless string of Galactica topics that can appeal to all and no excess amount of *really* OT stuff.

[dvo47p]

If you don't think the thread has merit, then may I suggest you take advantage of the dozens of other threads in this board that might be more to your liking? That's one of the things I like about this place over the other one that I quit. There's an endless string of Galactica topics that can appeal to all and no excess amount of *really* OT stuff.

Oh this thread has merit, like all those uninformed reviews that 'Battlesar Galactica' was just a 'Star Wars' rip off. The reality of it is that Larsen had the basic idea before Lucas' 'American Gaffitti'.

Padden you may 'suggest' away. Indeed you go on & on re: lot of OT stuff quite often. I would not suggest you go elsewhere.

[Eric Paddon]

I think what I'm finding so odd in your stridency is that you're losing sight of the fact that I agreed with the point that there is no legal basis to argue "plagiarism" from In Harm's Way for the same reason that the whole plagiarism argument against Larson had no merit.

That aside, discussing the influence In Harm's Way so obviously has on this bad miniseries is quite legit if someone wants to start a thread on that matter, and if by extension that leads to comments on that film itself, so be it. If that kind of discussion isn't to your liking, it only makes good sense that one look for a thread he or she is more interested in rather than get needlessly ticked off.

[Antelope]

Antelope526 My replies have generally been along the theme of not legal, but moral and giving 'the best you can do' especially for a show he claimed he loved.......

I don't know if there is a legal case here, but I certainly think there is a case for a loss of credibility amonst peers and very much among fans.....

Getting the word on the issue into general circulation is probably the best we can do. I don't know how people look at this stuff in the Hollywood community. When credited it is considered homage. Maybe by Moore mentioning it to a small extent he thinks he is paying homage to "In Harm's Way" who knows. I do think it should have got a credit.

In the past few years we saw two money making movies that were a reimagination of The Oddysee(sp?need my spell check) (Cold Mountain and O Brother Where Art Thou) since the original Greek author is long dead however it is a non-issue legally. At least it got a credit in O Brother Where Art Thou. Never saw Cold Mountain so can't tell you on that one.

[kingfish]

DVO is right about one main point, this thread has been beaten to death like a horse.

[Antelope]

DVO is right about one main point, this thread has been beaten to death like a horse.

It's easier to repost an old tread that has been beaten like a horse for the new members who weren't here to help us beat it than to write it all again. ;)

We have two (and maybe more) :/: good and long bullets versus lasars threads that each say pretty much the same thing.

We have a lot of good mini threads that conjecture about who is a cylon etc. I hope when the questions arise someone repost the old threads on the subject back up front.

I am sure this thread will again dissappear into the 2,300 plus other Galactica thread out there. :D

[Sept17th]

DVO is right about one main point, this thread has been beaten to death like a horse.

I bought In Harms Way on DVD and will watch it soon as my cable has not been turned back on yet.

*Bump* :laugh:

[dvo47p]

I bought In Harms Way on DVD and will watch it soon as my cable has not been turned back on yet.

:laugh:

:laugh: Now U 2 can beat this horse & look like a fool 2! :laugh:

:laugh:Yes :laugh: ole :laugh:'In Harm's Way' :laugh: was the inspiration :laugh: for Battlestar Galactica! :laugh:

:laugh: Those :laugh:FOOLS :laugh: Glen A. Larsen & Ron D. Moore :laugh: did not have a clue :laugh: that subliminal advertising :laugh: caused 'em to copy :laugh: 'In Harm's Way' :laugh:

:laugh: These :laugh: genus’s :laugh:here :laugh: know :laugh: everything :laugh: about :laugh: all :laugh: this :laugh: