Look at the Mini through the eyes of a child?

[jjrakman]

A pro-mini poster over at BSGclub.com posted this and I thought it would make for interesting discussion:

Do yourself a favor, take a second look at the show and do it with the eyes of the ten or twelve year old or whatever age you were when you first saw the old one.

I was 7 years old when TOS aired. Looking through those eyes, I would see three sex scenes in the first half hour, an infant getting it's skull crushed, and pilots bodies being dismembered in the vacuum of space. Now, I'm not saying there's anything necessarily wrong with that kind of stuff. But it definitely isn't fare for a 7 year old IMHO. I know I wouldn't want to explain to a seven year old, why that woman's spine was glowing. ;)

[Oenone]

It was made for an older teenage audiance who were not around when BSG first came out. It was not made for young children or die hard fans.

In my view the baby killing and the sex scenes were gratuitous. This is shame as the mini did have some very good ideas and fixed some faults in the origonal which perhaps were not considered a big problem at the time it was made.

[Starbuck]

Hmm.......

7-year old me: "Mommy, what are they doing?"
My mother: :eek:

I probably would have been very upset with the baby killing. :girl:

[malachi42]

It is not a show made for children and I believe there is a warning about unsuitable content. I ould think that the trailer would make it very clear to any parent that it was innapropriate and I would wonder about any parent who let their child watch it.
But then I sat through as much of Blade as I could stand next to a Dad with a 5 and 6 year old cowering on his lap, so people never fail to astonish me.

[Oenone]

I've seen parents removing screaming children from the Hulk film. Certificates are there for a reason. I have no idea why the cinema let toddlers into a 12 rated film.

[SeoulWind]

Watch the mini through the eyes of a child???

I was 12 in 1978. For me the ancient astronaut thing was very intriguing, the "we are them" idea and the concept that they were out there, trying to find us again while fighting to survive. Very compelling, I thought. The cultural cues that connected them to our ancient civilizations added to the effect. In addition, I very much felt that the heroes of the show were characters I could look up to, embodying values that were important to me. IMO, in this day and age, we could use such characters again. Instead we are assaulted with characters that seem to be teaching us that it's not necessary to rise above our flaws...

Nothing that made me a fan remains in this new incarnation. A sad state of affairs and not something I'd want a child of mine to watch...

Mark Snyder
Seoul, Korea

[BST]

Good points, seoulwind.


I know that collectively we've gone down this road before but, why do we constantly have to be indundated with the "reality" of the planet? I try to keep in touch so that I know what's going on in this world and have hopes for a brighter future in which one and all can share. Why is it necessary to spend so much time examining our problems, can't we examine or postulate a few solutions. Otherwise, we'll NEVER make any progress.

BST

[BST]

Sorry for going off-track with my mini-rant!

To the topic: This mini-series should NOT be viewed with the eyes of a child. It's not for them and you know what, I'm 43, and it's not for me either! I find very little in redeeming qualities about the show. Oh, there may be some but, where?

[callsignfalcon]

"It was made for an older teenage audiance who were not around when BSG first came out. It was not made for young children or die hard fans."

Very true. I can say I am in that age group and I liked it, as did my friends that watched it. I am one of a few of my friends who have actually seen the origanal series... but i plan to have a party to show everyone when I get the Dvd box set for christmas.... (Its one of 2 things i asked for... and i had to show my parents how to work amazon.com so I know i'm getting it! :) )

The baby killing was over the top... but it did help in the characterization of the cylon... they could have probly found a different way to characterize it tho...

[malachi42]

Very true. I can say I am in that age group and I liked it, as did my friends that watched it. I am one of a few of my friends who have actually seen the origanal series... but i plan to have a party to show everyone when I get the Dvd box set for christmas...

well theres a positive for TOS!

[Yminale]

May I link the article from Cylon Alliance stating that the TOS was not family friendly either. I have to admitt that the mini-series was more serious about the adult content than the TOS (the sex and violence were implied back than). Let's remember the premise of the TOS was the desperate remanants of humanity escaping from mindless killing machines who just committed genocide on their homeworlds. That's not a very child friendly idea.

Finally I think people are getting the wrong impression about the baby killing scence. It's not to show that Six was malicious killer but to show how naive she was. She had never seen a baby before and just got carried away. Her naivity is her weakness (how else can you explain how 6 is so desperately in love with Baltar of all people).

[jjrakman]

I't about the degree of explicitness. There's plenty of examples where shows that are o.k. for children which give a wink wink nod nod to the adults so both can enjoy. things that adults understand but go over the child's head. The mini was far too explicit for both to be able to enjoy, and is adult entertainment IMHO.

[Yminale]

Originally posted by jjrakman
I't about the degree of explicitness. There's plenty of examples where shows that are o.k. for children which give a wink wink nod nod to the adults so both can enjoy. things that adults understand but go over the child's head. The mini was far too explicit for both to be able to enjoy, and is adult entertainment IMHO.

That's true but why should the new mini-series handle the adult content like TOS. Most of us are old enough to handle explicit situation. If there is some fault than it belongs to Sci-Fi for not making it clear to the audience about the adult nature of the mini. Of course I agree with anyone who saids that the new BG is NOT appropiate for children, but I don't think that damns the mini.

[jewels]

The implication of Scifi's earliest advertising and still photos (the cylon eye teaser, the viper in the launch tube still) were meant to imply the original was coming back. The original was family fare. Therefore a deceptive marketing ploy on scifi's behalf as far as the non-fan public is concerned.

Jewels

[jjrakman]

Of course I agree with anyone who saids that the new BG is NOT appropiate for children, but I don't think that damns the mini.

I completely agree with this statement. By the way, anyone know what rating this did get?

[Orrin_73]

Originally posted by SeoulWind
Watch the mini through the eyes of a child???

I was 12 in 1978. For me the ancient astronaut thing was very intriguing, the "we are them" idea and the concept that they were out there, trying to find us again while fighting to survive. Very compelling, I thought. The cultural cues that connected them to our ancient civilizations added to the effect. In addition, I very much felt that the heroes of the show were characters I could look up to, embodying values that were important to me. IMO, in this day and age, we could use such characters again. Instead we are assaulted with characters that seem to be teaching us that it's not necessary to rise above our flaws...

Nothing that made me a fan remains in this new incarnation. A sad state of affairs and not something I'd want a child of mine to watch...

Mark Snyder
Seoul, Korea

Well said Mark, those were the points that made me a fan of BSG and scifi in general. Its too bad Ron Moore ignored all of them.

[Yminale]

Originally posted by jewels
The implication of Scifi's earliest advertising and still photos (the cylon eye teaser, the viper in the launch tube still) were meant to imply the original was coming back. The original was family fare. Therefore a deceptive marketing ploy on scifi's behalf as far as the non-fan public is concerned.

Jewels

That's debatable since teasers aren't meant to imply specific content.

[Dawg]

No, teasers are meant to lure people into watching.

So, Sci-Fi used icons familiar to the casual fan of TOS - Viper, Cylon eye, etc. to lure the TOS fan into watching.

That promises the casual fan of TOS that they were going to see Battlestar Galactica, never knowing that what they were about to watch wasn't Battlestar Galactica.

They also used Tricia Helfer's boobs to lure the adolescent boys, but that's beside the point.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Yminale]

Originally posted by Dawg
No, teasers are meant to lure people into watching.

So, Sci-Fi used icons familiar to the casual fan of TOS - Viper, Cylon eye, etc. to lure the TOS fan into watching.

I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that the teaser doesn't say anything about exact content or that the new BG is not for kids. To assume that the new BG is family friendly is just ignorance by the viewer and ignorance isn't an excuse.

Originally posted by Dawg

That promises the casual fan of TOS that they were going to see Battlestar Galactica, never knowing that what they were about to watch wasn't Battlestar Galactica.


Well they did have a large ship called Battlestar Galactica so you really claim that they were lying.

[BST]

Perhaps the point is being missed here.

By using the "Red Eye" Cylon as an primary advertisement tool, the average viewer would EXPECT to see that version of Cylon appearing prominently in the story.

By using Number 6 as a secondary advertisement tool, the average viewer would EXPECT to see that version of Cylon in a "supporting role" in the story.

Seems as though these 2 situations were reversed, doesn't it?

***

Regarding "Teasers and Content". Sorry, recognition of an item, used as a teaser, is the purpose of the teaser. If the Original Series Cylon was used as a teaser, one would recognize the Cylon as being from the Original Series and would "expect" an offering similar to the Original Series. If the "new" Cylon - Number 6 - were used as a primary teaser, one would not recognize that Cylon as being involved with the Original Series and would "expect" an offering unlike the Original Series.

***

[Yminale]

Originally posted by BST
Perhaps the point is being missed here.

By using the "Red Eye" Cylon as an primary advertisement tool, the average viewer would EXPECT to see that version of Cylon appearing prominently in the story.

By using Number 6 as a secondary advertisement tool, the average viewer would EXPECT to see that version of Cylon in a "supporting role" in the story.

Seems as though these 2 situations were reversed, doesn't it?

***

Regarding "Teasers and Content". Sorry, recognition of an item, used as a teaser, is the purpose of the teaser. If the Original Series Cylon was used as a teaser, one would recognize the Cylon as being from the Original Series and would "expect" an offering similar to the Original Series. If the "new" Cylon - Number 6 - were used as a primary teaser, one would not recognize that Cylon as being involved with the Original Series and would "expect" an offering unlike the Original Series.

***


I have to disagree. The problem with teasers is they don't give any context to the scene they depict. They show a Cylon in a teaser so what. It's an ASSUMPTION that the old Cylon will have a major part. You can argue whether this right or not (or how gullible people are) but in the end IT DOESN'T MATTER. Caveat Emptor, the first thing everybody should know about marketing. Teasers are designed to get you interested and they play with you assumption to do. In the end though the final product is what you judge. Anyway It's an interesting marketing campaign. Atract old fans with "old" Cylon and new fans with "new" Cylon and make their relationship ambiguos.

[BST]

"Let the Buyer Beware" is common sense.

"Bait and Switch" is illegal.

[Yminale]

Originally posted by BST
"Let the Buyer Beware" is common sense.

"Bait and Switch" is illegal.

True but these analogies to consumer protection or worthless. You're not buying the mini-series. You're simply watching it (and please none of this my time is valuable to me garbage. If you don't like a show you flip the channel). And you can't claim "Bait and Switch" if a store advertise an expensive item AT A HIGHER PRICE THAN NORMAL, runs out and tries to sell you something cheaper. The fact of the matter is when querried Sci-Fi admitted it was NOT a continuation, NONE of the original characters would appear and the only thing the new show and the old show had in common were some names and story plots. To claim something illegal happend they would have to lie about these three points which they never do. (As an aside all stores always state that their are limited quantities for items on sale to protect them from "bait and switch" accusations). You're basically claiming that it's wrong for Sci-Fi to mislead casual fans of BG but because they have no emotional involvement, no one is getting hurt. It's either they stay or they leave.

[Domiano]

Okay...the teaser trailers made most of think there was hope. The Cylon eye and sound effect...good idea. The next trailer showing Six and the vipers fighting the new cylon raiders cool...good idea. Noticed how they never really showed the Galactica or the new vipers that much? So, the trailers did their job and sucked some of us in....others were not fooled. I think they used the old cylon eye to put the image of the old cylons fresh in our minds. Then when we saw Six , we all thought it was a new cylon meant for infiltration and cylon centurions were going to get an updated look. Seeing the viper mark II made me think it was going to be just like old times (but updated). The teasers sold the mini to a new audience and hoped to pull some of the fans of TOS in. In many ways it succeeded.

The whole baby issue made me sick too. I am just glad they did not show the baby after Six walked away, the sound of it's neck breacking was enough for me to run to the sink and vomit. But the scene was a small and was quickly swept away with a commercial break.

Adama not really believing in Earth is a bad move. Well this whole mini-series a so many bad moves in it.:erk:

[Darth Marley]

I totally understand that sadness you parents must feel about not being able to share the show of your youth in an updated form with your young children.

[Raymar3d]

Baby Killing December 22nd, 2003 15:45 PM

"Battlestar Galactica Quote of 2003:

"Who is to say the killing of the baby is an act of evil? That's our human prejudice. A natural reaction." -- David Eick, Battlestar Galactica 2003 mini-series producer, when asked about the baby killing scene where the skull of a Colonial infant is crushed by a Cylon robot. SciFi.com Chat on December 4, 2003 at 9 PM."

THIS IS SICK. IT IS EVIL, AND EVIL IS ALL ABOUT CLOUDING MORALITY. EVIL NEEDS GREY TO THRIVE. WELL, HERE IT COMES.

That is how I define the answer to your question.

I am sick that I had anything to do with making this.

Ken

[larocque6689]

Ken

I'd appreciate hearing Ron's reply. Hope he writes back.

[Raymar3d]

Originally posted by larocque6689
Ken

I'd appreciate hearing Ron's reply. Hope he writes back.

Me too.

Ken

[BST]

Originally posted by Yminale
True but these analogies to consumer protection or worthless.You're not buying the mini-series.

That's true, I wouldn't "buy" the mini if they were giving it away!


You're simply watching it (and please none of this my time is valuable to me garbage. If you don't like a show you flip the channel).

Each person's "time" IS valuable. It is not for you to say whether or not that sentiment is "garbage".

And you can't claim "Bait and Switch" if a store advertise an expensive item AT A HIGHER PRICE THAN NORMAL, runs out and tries to sell you something cheaper.

Huh? This argument needs some work, in my opinion.

Why would a store advertise an item at a HIGHER than normal price, if they expected to sell that item? Normal business practice is to advertise at a LOWER price than normal. That is called a "SALE".

The fact of the matter is when querried Sci-Fi admitted it was NOT a continuation;
NONE of the original characters would appear;
and the only thing the new show and the old show had in common were some names and story plots.

True.


To claim something illegal happend they would have to lie about these three points which they never do. (As an aside all stores always state that their are limited quantities for items on sale to protect them from "bait and switch" accusations). You're basically claiming that it's wrong for Sci-Fi to mislead casual fans of BG but because they have no emotional involvement, no one is getting hurt. It's either they stay or they leave.

I'll reply to this with a re-post of a previous reply of mine, in this thread:

Perhaps the point is being missed here.

By using the "Red Eye" Cylon as an primary advertisement tool, the average viewer would EXPECT to see that version of Cylon appearing prominently in the story.

By using Number 6 as a secondary advertisement tool, the average viewer would EXPECT to see that version of Cylon in a "supporting role" in the story.

The "hook" that Sci-Fi was using, in their advertising, was the TOS Red-Eyed Cylon, they were NOT the featured "enemy" in the mini, and, YES, I do think it is WRONG for Sci-Fi to mislead the casual viewer this way.

BST

[Pagz]

I never saw the red eye cylon in the trailers. I saw the graphic of the red eye, but I was never under the impression that this meant there were going to be copious amounts of old school cylons. I took it as merely a clever way of gaining instant product recognition amongst the established fanbase, while poquing the interest of those unfamiliar with what the red eye represents. Those of use who know BSG knew what the commercial was for as soon as we heard the familiar sound and saw the roving eye. However, nothing in any of the trailers did anything to suggest that those were the cylons we'd be seeing the most of. Seems to me that anyone who deluded themselves into thinking the old cylons would be a major part of the show weren't really paying any attention at all.

Each person's "time" IS valuable. It is not for you to say whether or not that sentiment is "garbage".

You're missing the point. The thing is that no one is forced to watch the program. If you consider your time too valuable to watch the mini, then don't. It costs you nothing to watch, and as such, bait and switch doesn't apply.

[BST]

Seems to me that anyone who deluded themselves into thinking the old cylons would be a major part of the show weren't really paying any attention at all.

Pagz, with all due respect, I wasn't referring to folks like ourselves that have kept up with events and KNEW what was going to appear. I was referring to "the casual viewer" that may only have seen the ad while channel surfing.

Each person's "time" IS valuable. It is not for you to say whether or not that sentiment is "garbage".

You're missing the point. The thing is that no one is forced to watch the program. If you consider your time too valuable to watch the mini, then don't. It costs you nothing to watch, and as such, bait and switch doesn't apply.

My POINT is that I was pointing out that NONE of us should be trying to belittle another by stating that any feelings such as the "my time is valuable" should not be expressed. These are honest feelings by some folks and should be respected. None of us should be heavy-handed in our approach to others. That was the point that I was trying to make.

BST

[Raymar3d]

Originally posted by larocque6689
Ken

I'd appreciate hearing Ron's reply. Hope he writes back.

Here it is:

"Jeez, Ken, caffeinate much?

Eick's answer was misquoted -- he was talking to someone on the phone who typed in his answer in an on-line chat. All he was trying to say was that from Six's perspective, killing the baby probably had a different moral point of view than from our own.

Sorry you're so upset about the show. Obviously, I'm very pleased and the audience & critical response was tremendous, so I don't think we sent out some abominable moral message to the masses.

In any case, thank you for your work on the mini and I hope that you have a great holiday season.

Best Regards,
Ron"

And my reply to him:

"Ron,

Maybe so. It just is a very insensitive statement, and that's not cool. My wife is pregnant right now, and a good friend of mine lost his child to miscarriage. I didn't have a problem with evil cylons doing evil things. My problem is the feeling that his statement seemed so callous. I would very much like to keep evil evil and good good, and the moral tug of war clearly that. No one is perfect, no one is entirely evil. But the cylons know of human morality, so they know it is evil. They're not animals that are just following instinct. That's my point.

I don't know, it just seems that everywhere I turn around, life becomes something to throw away. For once, I would like to see an optimistic view of humanity, not one so sympathetic to dragging us through the gutter with guilt.

Anyhow, if he was misquoted, my apologies.

To you and yours, Happy Holidays. :)

Ken"

[larocque6689]

I was the one who asked the question to Eick. He didn't write the script and his comments didn't address the question that I asked.

Could you get Ron to reply to this specific question:

Question: One of the things RDM has tried to do was to give the Cylons a motive other than just simply being "evil", yet in later drafts of the script and the rough cut, they still had the "babykilling" scene. Isn't this a step backwards?

Note - I read the "mercykilling" remark and the scene didn't play that way to me.

[malachi42]

Ken- yet another question from me. (not Jim)
Do you really believe that evil is always evil and good is always good? That is always clearly deliniated, black hats and white hats? Can good people commit evil acts under the right circumstances? Can a serial killer pull a child from the path of an oncoming car? Or will he automatically do nothing?
I think evil and good can be very, very complex concepts.

[Raymar3d]

From my letter to Ron Moore I posted:

"No one is perfect, no one is entirely evil. But the cylons know of human morality, so they know it [murder] is evil."


There is a grey area where WE exist as humans. There are conflicts in absolutism, true. But murder is murder. That's pretty plain and simple, IMHO.

IMHO, Evil, whatever force it may be, Satan, or Iblis or whatever, would seek to blur the lines completely, to make morality unclear, undefined, IMPOSSIBLE.

So, I resist that direction as much as humanly possible. I fail often. We all do. :)

Anyhow, my take. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.

Ken

[Darth Marley]

I would say that for cosmic forces,absolute good or evil might (must for the believer) exist.

In humanity,I would argue,and orthodox Christianity would support,that all humans are flawed and fallible.

In the history of many religions during the past few millenia,we have recorded many actions by supposedly "good" forces commiting evil acts in the name of good.

[Raymar3d]

Originally posted by Darth Marley
I would say that for cosmic forces,absolute good or evil might (must for the believer) exist.

In humanity,I would argue,and orthodox Christianity would support,that all humans are flawed and fallible.

In the history of many religions during the past few millenia,we have recorded many actions by supposedly "good" forces commiting evil acts in the name of good.

Yep. Agreed.

Ken :)

[callsignfalcon]

shouldn't the baby killing be addressed in one forum not several? I swear Ive seen this posts several times.... O.o

[shiningstar]

If I were that age ........I would not be ALLOWED to watch
it due to the WANTON SEX, or Violance ......and I'm sure
that as my father was a veteran as was my mother, father,
brother, and assorted relatives they would have a VERY,
VERY, VERY dim view of the stand that the REMAKE
takes toward the BLAME AMERICA syndrome and the ANTI
MILITARY 'propeganda' that as appealed so to John OLMOS
that he said it was "VERY" Military Oriented!

CAN we all say "FELDER GARB"?

P.S. Calling falcon ...........BABY killing should be addressed
in as many forums as it TAKES in order for YOU and everyone
else to see that little children should not be viewing something
that Violent. You seem to be forgetting that the REMAKE was
and is a TV14 rated show and was 'rated' that way with 'GOOD'
reason.

View this through the eye's of a CHILD? Not through MY CHILD'S
eyes!

P.S.S. I 'apologize' in advance for anyone who I might have
offended in my message.