Where Are The Fleets?

[Dayton3]

Both the original BG premier and most of the novelization backs up the idea that the Colonial Fleet consisted of just 5 battlestars. Though the novelizaton does mention "fleet battlecruisers" being destroyed in the original attack.

But in "The Living Legend", its openly mentioned that the Pegasus was part of the destroyed "Fifth Fleet". And in "Take The Celestra" its mentioned that the Celestras commander once commanded the "Battlestar Rikon and 600 fighting ships".

So where were all the other warships in the premier episode?

[radama]

Originally posted by Dayton3
Both the original BG premier and most of the novelization backs up the idea that the Colonial Fleet consisted of just 5 battlestars. Though the novelizaton does mention "fleet battlecruisers" being destroyed in the original attack.

But in "The Living Legend", its openly mentioned that the Pegasus was part of the destroyed "Fifth Fleet". And in "Take The Celestra" its mentioned that the Celestras commander once commanded the "Battlestar Rikon and 600 fighting ships".

So where were all the other warships in the premier episode?
I think you answered you own question there.By the time of the premeire episode,that's what was left of the Colonial Fleet.Five battlestars on their way to a "peace conference".Otherwise how else would the "Galactica" be the "only surviving battlestar?"

[repcisg]

Now I’ve been beaten up before for saying this, but nowhere in the Pilot or series is there any mention of how many Battlestars were in the Colonial fleet. Only after the series was canceled and fans kept asking did the number 5 come out. According to old preproduction scripts now out on the net, Larson did want 5 in the opening scene, but later in the same scripts he implies there others as well as many smaller ships.

One publication, from Space Waist, and often quoted said there were originally 12. That number has never been challenged either. So the issue is really up in the air. Personally I take the number 5 as much to small, I have counted 22 in the pilot and the formation suggests 24. Which is a much more reasonable number considering Adama’s willingness to not push his opinions of the Cylons with Pres. Adar.

[LucianG]

repcisg,

I was thinking of you last night as I watched it. If there weren't more than 5 Battlestars there at Cimtar, the folks doing the models and filming did lousy job keeping up with where everything was. As always, I like your analysis on the numbers and positions, and I believe, your thoughts that some of the others must have escaped. I can see one or more limping off into deep space and showing up in season two, three, four, or more. If there had only been a season two, three, four, or more.

Lucian

[kingfish]

If you want to see the ships of the fleet, Steve is the man. He has done a number of renders including the famed Libirian Patrol which can be found here. He also did one of a Defender taking on a Basestar.

[Stevew]

Actually Darrell did the defender vs the Baststar but I can't find it and Fabio used my meshes for The Libran Patrol
Here is the rest of the fleet and some Cylon ships
http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=Stevew&Form.sess_id=20727&Form.sess_key=1068490418
S:D

[Dayton3]

Originally posted by repcisg
Now I’ve been beaten up before for saying this, but nowhere in the Pilot or series is there any mention of how many Battlestars were in the Colonial fleet. Only after the series was canceled and fans kept asking did the number 5 come out. According to old preproduction scripts now out on the net, Larson did want 5 in the opening scene, but later in the same scripts he implies there others as well as many smaller ships.

One publication, from Space Waist, and often quoted said there were originally 12. That number has never been challenged either. So the issue is really up in the air. Personally I take the number 5 as much to small, I have counted 22 in the pilot and the formation suggests 24. Which is a much more reasonable number considering Adama’s willingness to not push his opinions of the Cylons with Pres. Adar.

How do you come up with that many Battlestars in the Pilot? Not that I disagree with you. I would be thrilled to think their were a large number of battlestars there. But I never saw it.

All I remember were the five battlestars. The Atlantia exploded. Galactica withdrew, and three were seen still being attacked behind Galactica.

where do all the others come in?

[Ian_W359]

If I may be of assistance, I have the Space Waste 'Colonial Warriors Technical Manual' and it does list 12 Battlestars, their colony of origin and their year of presumed destruction -

In chronological order (according to the book - forgive me if the dates seem a little odd) -

6531
Bellerophon - Scorpia

6538 (The Battle Of Molokay[?])
Prometheus - Libra

6539
Poseidon - Aquaria

6547
Rycon (Commander Kronus' Ship) - Pisces
Olympia - Taura

6549 (The Armistice - The Final Destruction)
Argo - Sagitara
Atlantia (President Adar's ship) - Aries
Columbia - Virgon
Pacifica - Canceria
Solaria - Leo

6551 (The Battle Of Gamoray) (also listed as the battle of Molokay?!)
Pegasus (Commander Cain's ship) - Gemini (destruction not confirmed)

Not destroyed
:warrior:Galactica - Caprica:warrior:

I'm not sure how this info relates to other sources (websites for example), but I hope it is of help.

All the best,
Ian_W359

[repcisg]

Dayton3,

I did an image analysis of the Pilot, which I have laid out at

http://www.geocities.com/repcisg/index.html

There was a lot of math behind some of the positioning of the ships. Some detailing remains to be done and I have an image around here some where showing #10 and #11 as numbered on image 7 of the web site. To go with this formation I wrote a simulation program to determin if there were too many ships. Based on the perfomance of the Galactica's weapons during the series and asumming complete suprise the formation works for 900 attackers.

The Galactica turns left as seen in the film while the right rear ships turn right and survive. On #18 pitches up and escapes that way. About 10% of the time #19 does the same. So the sim says 5 Battlestars survived maybe 6 (there is that number 5 again).

For those looking to do some fan fiction, there are some stories just beging to be told here. A group of three Battlestars (#22 comes away damaged) and one, alone and far from home.

[Westy]

that there were only 5 Battlestars at Cimtar. It's also been well established that there were only 12 Battlestars ever constructed. The ship on which the armistice talks between the colonies and the Cylons were to take place was the Star Kobol (not a battlestar)....so those pictures of the Battlestars in the window floating in space in the background were not from the Atlantia...they were from the Star Kobol.

[Dawg]

Westy - are you refering to the sequence of scenes at the beginning of Saga of a Star World that my avatar comes from?

<---

If so, I believe you are slightly mistaken. That sequence takes place aboard the Atlantia, President Adar's battlestar. I do not recall seeing any scene that depicted the actual armistice talks - that happened before the beginning of Saga, which was the Council of 12 congratulating themselves on bringing peace to humankind.

If I'm mistaken about this, please let me know.

I'm not, but let me know if I am. ;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Westy]

So that IS from the Atlantia then?

Over the years I've had to continually readjust my thinking on the precise sequence of events...the movie didn't do a very good job of continuity here. I thought the talks never took place. On which ship did Adar give his speech to the council?

[repcisg]

I have the original Pilot as broadcast in 1978. The image Dawg uses comes from the Atlantia. Adar and Adama are standing in front of the window of the right side meeting or council room of the Atlantia. In Adar's speech given just moments before he clearly states the final meeting with the Cylons has yet to take place.

With the exception of Robert Thurston's books, virtually all published material on Battlestar Galactica was NOT created or supported by the production team, but was made up by the authors in order to capitalize on the Battlestar name. This material can in no way be called cannon.

For me personally, if it is in the film - it is cannon. If it is in a Robert Thurston book AND does not conflict with the film is can be used as cannon. Everything else is fan fiction.

[Westy]

It's interesting, and I wish that were the case, but I can't believe there were that many Battlestars there. I wonder what that lay out would look like in 3D...hmmmm...I can do that. I'll get back to you heh

[repcisg]

From the front it looks like a serpents head. Ships #18 and #19 are the eyes. The five ships leading the main group are the toung.

This may be one of the reasons Larson fire Cola.

[Westy]

all in a single plane? Do you have any elevations? This is a quick rendering, no star field, no materials, just a single distant light.

http://groups.msn.com/BattlestarGalactica/fanart.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=198

[repcisg]

It's in three dimentions, the lead ships are low while the trailing ships are above. In the front ranks the following ship is above and behind. The right and left front ranks form the lower mouth while the second rank forms the upper mouth. The two ships in the center are the highest and form the eyes. The Galactica leads the group that forms the rear of the left jaw.

I did work it out at one time, some where in my archives I have the formation laid out from the head on view. If I get time to day I will look for it.

[repcisg]

What convinced me I have it right is the formation worked itself out. I just took it where my analysis took me. If the images were truely random the no formation would have emerged.

[Westy]

I'd like to recreate those scenes you use in a mock up. I think you might be on to something.

[137th Gebirg]

I'm not entirely convinced there were more than 5 Battlestars in Saga. It was clearly said in the pilot that, other than the Galactica, no ships were able to launch their Vipers. If there were that many Battlestars, SOMETHING has to have been launched. The Cylons couldn't have caught all of the ships off guard that quickly. With over 20 ships in the fleet, the probabilities are statistically low. I believe it was also mentioned that the armistice was not yet signed. Remember the Serena scenes as they were awaiting news of the armistice signing. You don't think that such an historical occasion would not be captured by live video footage?

Here's my take on the whole "fleets" thing.

There were 13 fleets.

Assuming that there were only 12 Battlestars, one from each Colony, each fleet used a Battlestar as its command ship, much like how we use aircraft carriers as battlegroup flagships. Under each Battlestar's Flag are a number of smaller battleships and other support craft.

Why 13 fleets, you ask? Fleets 2 through 13 were each a fleet with one Battlestar and the fore-mentioned support craft, but the 1st Fleet was only rarely called into action, as it was made up strictly of all the operational Battlestars, possibly for strictly ceremonial displays used in Colonial holidays like "Armaments Day" that Apollo briefly mentioned at one time. As it seemed that almost all support craft were destroyed or under repair by the time of the Holocaust, the fleet of five Battlestars we saw in "Saga" was, in fact, the final deployment of the First, or Presidential, Fleet. There may have been other smaller unseen support craft in that last fleet (such as a reference to the ship "Star Kobol" on which the aborted armistice was supposed to have been signed), but were so small and quickly destroyed and weren't really worth mentioning. If the war was going as badly as it seemed, then there was no reason to have as many fleets as the Colonies originally used and spread too thin, so they consolodated everything back into the 1st Fleet for a last-ditch show of force to let the Cylons know they meant business, not that it mattered in the end.

Just my theory on fleet deployments.

[Westy]

"It was clearly said in the pilot that, other than the Galactica, no ships were able to launch their Vipers."

Tigh: "What's the count?"
Rigil: "67 fighters in all sir, 25 of our own."

Where did the other 42 vipers come from? I always assumed that a few Battlestars managed to get some off after all.

[repcisg]

Ah, first off the comment about no other Battlestars launching fighters was made at the beginning of the attack. After the attack when the Galactica had moved to rendezvous with her fighters she picked 67 in all, 25 of her own. This shows other Battlestars did get Viper launched. In the simulation I wrote I found that if I assigned a strike group to teach Battlestar, an each group had sub groups assigned to attack specific parts of the ship, with a five ship suicide group for each Battlestar. The attack works against 24 Battlestars. Worse for the fleet those attack ships who’s Target has been destroyed move on to reinforce the attacks on other Battlestars. The attack “rolls” over the fleet like a wave from left to right. Some of the Battlestars on the right side of the fleet do get some fighters launched, but by then they face overwhelming odds.

Interestingly, the fighters launched from the Galactica’s right bay engage the strike group heading for #18, giving this ship time to escape by pitching up and accelerating up and to the right away from the attack. The fur-ball around the Galactica also breaks up the attack groups heading for #20, 21 and 22. Giving them time to turn to the right and accelerate away from the attack. Now this group is followed and #22 gets beat-up, but because the Cylons are forced to chase their targets they are strung out and can not close with all three ships before they can launch their own fighters. Once that happens the Cylons are wiped out. But by this time this groups is far far away and out of touch with the main fleet.

A few thoughts on fleet organization. Even in war time you cannot keep all your ships ‘UP’ all the time, they need maintenance and upkeep, crews need time off. In real like most fleets keep one ship three ‘UP’ one is in port for light maintenance and crew R&R. This ship is available on short notice. One ship would be ‘DOWN’ for major service, overhaul and upgrades. A twenty four ship ‘Home’ fleet would break out this way, eight (8) ships would be ‘UP’ and online of these five(5) would form the main defense force, the other three would work as scouts and conduct perimeter patrols. A second group of eight (8) would be in port for crew R&R and light maintenance, available on short notice. This group would reinforce the main defense group if needed. The remaining eight (8) ships would be down for major maintenance or upgrades.

Now for a major ceremonial event like the peace conference conceivably you could pull all your ships together to put on a major show.

[repcisg]

But a good point is made, other ships and smaller “Fleets” must have existed. All governments that claim territory must have military forces available to police and exercise sovernty over that territory. Even today this is basic requirment of all governments. so what happened to these smaller units, many would not have been in the direct path of the attack. where did they go?

[Westy]

and went back to kick the Cylons out of the homeworld system :-)

repcisg, I read and applied your Z elevation information to my own 3D fleet layout, with some good success I might add. I think some of the ships locations might be a bit off, nothing too terrible though...I think it's workable. I'll update my layout when you dig through and find your head on view. The only problem I can find is that some of those other ships should still be visible in a few of these shots (which is why I think the ship locations might be a bit off). It's probably workable though...just needs some tweaking here and there. I'm doing this in AutoCAD 2000 for precise placement, so it's accurate enough.

[repcisg]

Good, Westy. If my memory serves me correct, I will need to dig out the program but the Z elevation should be about 3000 meters or yards. Any way 3000 sould right for the elevation.

[Westy]

How many meters (yards) long is a Battlestar on your drawing?

[repcisg]

I have been using the 6080 foot size, or one nautical mile. I haven't had a chance to look at the program for quite some time but a vertical seperation of 3000 yards would be 1.7 miles

[Westy]

I'll use 6080 feet and 3000 yards from lowest to highest and see what happens. What program did you use to figure this stuff out with?

[shiningstar]

Thanks for posting this thread I was really curious how
they could list the pegasus as destroyed and then see it in a different ep with Lloyd Bridges commanding. But since he
was such a great actor that was a ? I could let die. Although I'm glad it was answered here.

[repcisg]

Hi Westy,

To figure this stuff out I used good old pencil and paper, lots of paper and lots of trig combined with a number of optics formulas. Fun stuff, well for me anyway.

I wrote the computer sim, I have been doing that sort of thing off and on over tha last 30+ years.

I still haven't found that image, I may have to regenerate it, oh-well, I curious to see what you have come up with.

[Proximo]

So is that an animated computer sim or do you just sit and read the numbers? :)

[repcisg]

Unfortunatly it is mainly numbers, but it also produces a rough log with positioning info and condition flags. Near the end I had it refine the log in to a sort of black box recording that would ne laeft behind if the ship was destroyed. Some of them make good reading, well sort of.

[Proximo]

It sounds interesting. Would it run on Linux? Does it still exist? I feel a sudden urge to play with it. ;)

Who knows, perhaps if I brush up my C skills a little (lot!) I might be able to program a visual wrapper for it. I've been meaning to get down to the nitty-gritty of C and C++...

[repcisg]

Unfortunatly I have been working in a windows world, so I did it in VB6. It can produce a trace file with the course and position information, and yes I still have it.

[Westy]

If you have x, y, z position info, I can use AutoCAD to place them precisely and then give you any kind of view that you want in 3D.

I've already made a ACAD drawing of the positions of the battlestars based on the top down drawing located here:

http://www.geocities.com/repcisg/index7.html

And using the Z info you gave earlier, I've moved them up and down accordingly. I know you said the Z data wasn't accurate, but you'd get that info, when you do, I'll update the drawing. Tell my what views you want, and I'll pop out some pics for you. If anyone wants this ACAD drawing I have, I'll be happy to provide it. I can give you .dxf or .dwg, your choice.

Also, I'm a pretty decent programmer too, I could port any VB code to c/c++ if anyone wants it in that form.

[repcisg]

Thanks Westy,

I'm going to be in class most of the day, we're studying apprasal laws to day - I'm so excited.

I'll try to get the numbers to you this weekend.

[Dayton3]

Another thought on the origin of those 42 "non Galactica" Vipers.

It stands to reason that several Battlestars managed to get SOME Vipers off. Simple law of averages.

Note, it was more than just launching the Vipers that took time. It was getting the pilots and launch bay crews called to action. Apparently, the Galactica was the only Battlestar that called a Battle Stations alert and thus had pilots and Vipers ready to launch.

Now, assuming that there were 22 Battlestars, it stands to reason that the Galactica wasn't the only one launching patrols. We know that the Galactica launched at least Apollo and Zac .and we know from later during Adamas covert meeting with Tigh at Carrilon that launchiing patrols was standard procedure, EVEN WHEN the council wouldn't allow large scale launches.

Assume each Battlestar launched two patrols totally four fighters, then minus the Galacticas four ships, a total of EIGHTY FOUR Vipers might be out on patrol at the time of the ambusm. Some might not even have made it back until the battle was nearly over.

[AlphaAce]

Originally posted by Westy
If you have x, y, z position info, I can use AutoCAD to place them precisely and then give you any kind of view that you want in 3D.

I've already made a ACAD drawing of the positions of the battlestars based on the top down drawing located here:

http://www.geocities.com/repcisg/index7.html

And using the Z info you gave earlier, I've moved them up and down accordingly. I know you said the Z data wasn't accurate, but you'd get that info, when you do, I'll update the drawing. Tell my what views you want, and I'll pop out some pics for you. If anyone wants this ACAD drawing I have, I'll be happy to provide it. I can give you .dxf or .dwg, your choice.

Also, I'm a pretty decent programmer too, I could port any VB code to c/c++ if anyone wants it in that form.

You make a convincing argument. It appears that there were quite a bit more than 5 battlestars at Cimtar. I never thought about that until I looked at your website on the topic.

[Westy]

I've read countless times that there were only 5 Battlestars there, but I've always wondered why the movie images were so inconsistent. In one shot they were lined up front to rear, in others they were beside each other, etc. In BSG fandom, aren't the films considered "Canon" before anything else? (i.e. books, news articles, etc etc) If that's true, then the only way to explain the shots of the Cimtar fleet, other than just careless attention to detail, is by this educated guesswork of repcisg's. Are there other thoughts on this? I can cite 3 or 4 sources for the 5 Battlestar figure, and I know all of you can too, but is there anything that says what repcisg is saying is not possible?

[SpyOne]

Originally posted by repcisg
I did an image analysis of the Pilot, which I have laid out at

http://www.geocities.com/repcisg/index.html

(snip) Based on the perfomance of the Galactica's weapons during the series and asumming complete suprise the formation works for 900 attackers.



If I may take up this discussion, I went and looked at your page.
I found your analysis of the images interesting, and well researched. I am also very curious about the software you've used. (I run Win98 and large emails are no problem if you feel like sharing. :) )

However, your analysis of how many vipers fit in the landing bay seems to make a good counter-arguement.

Here goes:
You suggest that a Battlestar uses 2 squadrons (of 37 Vipers each) for defense of the ship. I prefer squadrons of 32 for absolutely no good reason, but will be using my smaller squadron numbers as they are more conservative.
If each of the Battlestars going to the Peace Conference had only those 2 squadrons aboard, that gives us some good numbers for the number of Vipers present.
If there were 22 Battlestars, they brought 1408 Vipers to the battle. If there were only 5, they brought 320.
Now, of course, not all of those Vipers could get launched.

However, the Cylons went to a lot of effort to lauch an extra-sneaky sneak attack, so I think it is a fair assumption that they were prepared for things to go not exactly as planned. They would have a large enough force to wipe the fleet out (or at least cripple it) even if the fleet managed to launch a large percentage of their Vipers.
How many is that? Well, I'd figure at least as many Raiders as Vipers, figuring they are about equally matched. (In fact, I'd say a Viper is slightly better than a Raider, but 2 Raiders defeats 1 Viper easilly.)

If there are 22 Battlestars with 1408 Vipers, if the Battlestars manage to launch half their Vipers then 900 Cylon Raiders are facing nearly even odds (900 to 704) plus 22 Battlestars tips the odds in the Colonial forces' favor.
If there were merely 5 Battlestars and they launched all of their Vipers, the Cylons still have them at nearly 3 to 1, and in fact if each Viper destroys 2 Raiders before going down the Cylons still have more than 50 Riders per Battlestar.

Lastly, if we assume Galactica launched 64 Vipers at Cimtar then the 25 they recovered later represents 39% survival or 61% casualties. Assuming other squadrons suffered similar percentages, the 38 other Vipers Galactica picked up (from Tigh's line "63, 25 of ours") represent an original 156 Vipers from the other 4 Battlestars, or about 39 per. So Galactic managed to launch all her Vipers while the others averaged about half.

Please, pick apart my ideas. :)

[repcisg]

I’ve been quite busy these last two weeks, finished the State Exams last week (Passed, they don’t give scores), now doing in house classes. But I think will have more time to work this now.

First off, I have a tape of the original 1978 broad cast that I used to capture the images. And it is from this tape that I have done the analysis. Second the simulation, as a simulation, tries to match known actions in the correct sequence with a series of reasonable sequences, events or actions to reproduce the battle. From this certain assumptions can be drawn with reasonable certainty.

The foundation of the Cimtar battle was drawn from the Pearl Harbor attack, from this certain assumptions were made. One, the fleet would be lulled into a false scenes of security. Two no one would be alert and three the fleet would sail with minimal or basic defenses. These were common factors found in the Pearl Harbor disaster. Even though the combined Navy and Army air forces out numbered the attackers few American aircraft actually got off the ground.

With the exception of one carrier, the best ships were in the Atlantic escorting convoys, the older less able ships were in the Pacific. Why? Because the threat was viewed as lower. It was believed there would be time to move ships around if need be.

At Cimtar the situation was similar, no ship was to be on alert, Battlestars are far to big to support only 75 fighters. If you want to there is space for 600 or more. So to me they sailed only with what was considered sufficient for self defense. Their other squadrons were left at home.

Now for the fighters, I allowed about three minutes from the time the alarm is given for the pilots to prep and arrive at their fighters ready for launch. In most cases this was enough time for the Cylon suicide fighters to crash into the landing bays and stop the launches or at least delay them. I did allow for damage control to take place. In addition not all ships would go on alert at the same time, there would be delays caused by confusion and command officers not being on the bridge.

In a surprise attack the last thing you want is to allow you opponent time to fight back or get organized. You want to keep him disorganized and off balance until it is too late. The Cimtar attack does this, as shown in the film.

The big difference between the film and Pearl Harbor, at Cimtar the Fleet is underway. Which means those ships with time to comprehend what is happening have the chance of fleeing the battle before they are destroyed.

To make it work as we see in on the film, I assigned a strike groups to each Battlestar. Part of this strike group is a four or five ship suicide group. Other sections attack the bridge, engines and defensive batteries. This combo wears down the ships defenses and with engine damage mounting prevents it from escaping. As each Battlestar is destroyed the surviving attackers move to the next nearest Battlestar and attack it. The result is a wave like effect moving from left to right through the fleet. Battlestars die is rapid succession. Only the three on the far right rear and #18 survive routinely, along with the Galactica. Some times #19 makes it with #18.

So for those wishing to write stories about Battlestars other than the Galactica or Pegasus, I think I can say with confidence there are four others, possibly five, with untold stories.

[repcisg]

On the topic of five Battlestars, Glen Larson and the production team NEVER said during production there were only five Battlestars. That number came out of a conversation between Glen and a fan at a convention, the fan suggested the number five. To Glen the number was irrelevant to the story and he simply went along with it.

With the exception of the Robert Thurston novels, non of the printed material produced about the Battlestars was ever blessed by or sourced from the production. It is no better than fan fiction and no more cannon than any thing you or I might write.

A second plausible source for the number 5 is the opening sequence of each episode of the series. This is the opening image of the pilot and is the only image of the pilot used during the series. The reasons for this are directly related to the falling out between Larson and the original director Colla, who was fired by Larson during filming of the Pilot.

Officially there is no cannon source other than the film that says how many Battlestars were in the fleet. In the new Mini, Sarbuck implies there were as many as 120.

I will say that I cannot get just the Galactica to survive the attack with only five Battlestars, unless I make them virtually bullet prof, then all survive. At more than 24, more ships survive and the possibility of more than one Battlestar retuning to colonial space becomes a real problem.

So there you have it, I think.

[SpyOne]

Originally posted by repcisg

I will say that I cannot get just the Galactica to survive the attack with only five Battlestars, unless I make them virtually bullet prof, then all survive. At more than 24, more ships survive and the possibility of more than one Battlestar retuning to colonial space becomes a real problem.

So there you have it, I think.
I don't understand this bit.

Are you saying that, if there are only five battlestars in the simulation, it gets hard to have the Galactica survive? Because I should think making the Galactica the only one to survive gets easier with fewer ships. :)

IMO, and based of foggy memories, Galactica survived mainly because she left the battle area at high speed. Had she remained, she likely would have been destroyed as well, but the Raiders could not pursue her.

Perhaps we're just facing a minor logic-hole in the script. It occurred to me while working on this that if, as we both suppose, the Battlestars left the majority of their fighters behind, that only leaves more fighters defending the colonies. And if the Cylons possessed sufficient forces to destroy the Battlestars and destroy the Colonies, then why the intricate plan?

Here is my guess for an answer to that, and I hope it is supported by stuff from the show. (Been a while since I've seen it.)
The Cylons did not have enough forces. They did have enough to mount a major assault. Baltar gave them passcodes and stuff so they could more easilly overcome the Planetary Defenses, and also lured the Battlestars far away from the Colonies.
This gives the Cylons 2 objectives, and 2 ways to look at things. Either the important thing is destroying the Fleet, because without the Fleet's protection the Colonies will inevitably fall, or the important thing is to destroy the Colonies because without the Colonies the Fleet will inevitably fall. Decide which is more important, and dedicate the majority of your forces there.
However, you will need to delay the fleet if you plan to attack the Colonies, and you will need to damage the Colonies during the assault on the fleet (and they'll change those codes once they realize they've been betrayed).

Therefore, I guess I'm saying that probably the Cylons were trying to threaten and delay the fleet, but that destroying it was just a bonus. The real objective was to prevent the fleet from reinforcing the Colonies, because the destruction of the Colonies was paramount.
Otherwise, the Cylons would need to have committed enough forces to the fleet to be certain of it's destruction. If that were the case, I'd argue that 900 fighters is not enough against 20+ Battlestars, even if they are supposed to be "asleep" and are only carrying a few fighters. The chance that they are more prepared for an attack is too great to blow this great opportunity.

[SpyOne]

Changing gears a bit here:

How did you determine the combat valuse you use? I know it must be guesswork to a great degree, but what did you base your guesswork upon? I mean, how many fighters does it take to destroy a Battlestar? How many fighters does a Battlestar destroy per second? That kind of stuff. :)

[repcisg]

SpyOne,
You ask some good questions and in part I agree with some of your points. On the question of how many bs there were, it is important to remember the Galactica did not launch until she was actually fired upon. If we assume only five bs then that puts 180 Cylon fighters in firing range before any vipers are launched or defensive turrets are activated. In this scenario she and the rest of the fleet dies very quickly. The attack is just too over whelming.

By increasing the size of the fleet the number of attackers focused on just the Galactica becomes less threatening, less effective. It takes longer for battle damage to mount. Galactica has the time necessary to launch two waves of vipers and escape. We need to remember an attack by 300 Cylon fighters during the series was a major problem even with all her fighters launched.

As with any simulation there are compromises, assumptions are made and lots of trial and error testing (the fun part). For example in the Pilot and series we see laser turrets fire multiple times before getting a hit, so a hit ratio needed to be computed. With each round fired the chance of a hit would improve by that ratio. Viper fire is done the same way as is fire from the Cylons. In testing I found that under certain circumstances the fleet as a whole could escape, but by assigning groups of Cylons to focus on say the engines the BS could be crippled and not able to run. Others would go for the bridge, we see this in the Pilot, this would prevent the ship from being effetely commanded. Others would go for the laser turrets reducing the bs ability to defend itself. Then of course others went for the landing bays to prevent Vipers from being launched, and the Cylon suicide fighters not only disabled the landing bays but started uncontrollable fires which swept up the support arms and into the main hull. One such attack would not be enough but multiple hits would do nicely. The second attacker would take out the fire fighters and damage control teams responding to the first hit.

I had 35 to 40 attackers initially assigned to each bs with 60 assigned to the Presidents ship. This seems to work well and has the Atlantia dying at about the right time. Then the attackers move on to the next ship reinforcing the attack on it and so on. A tidal wave rolling across the fleet, building from left to right.

The basic strategy of the attack falls into the category of a lesser power attacking a greater power. We hear in some of the background conversations how various communications centers stop working. Later in the series we find out Baltar had saboturs on each planet to shut down key defense systems at the right time. With this in place a smaller force could over whelm a larger one, as was done at Pearl Harbor.

That the Cylons had a limited force is underscored by their attacking the inner-planets first then regrouping to attack the outer ones. Then a complete pull back which allowed the Galactica to slip in and pull together the fleet of survivors before heading out. That the Cylons were not strong enough to secure and maintain control over the Colonial worlds for a time after the attack says the Cylon Empire had its limits and may have been smaller or weeker than the Colonials.

[repcisg]

A bit of speculation - both the Cylons and the Colonials used the same fuel to power their ships. At Caralon the fleet found a major mining operation, mining tylium. Where was all that fuel going? Adama suspected it was going to the Cylon, which we find out was true. If Caralon was a major fuel source for the Cylons wouldn’t its destruction cause serious problems for them?

[jewels]

Rep:
on vipers to raiders ratio: isn't there an implication in Saga that 3 to 1 odds (raider to viper) is considered a fair fight or a winable fight? It's in Apollo's comments to Zac after they wipe out the initial Cylon advance patrol of 4 ships and then discover they are outmanned at least a thousand to one.

Jewels

[repcisg]

and then Apollo looks at his scanner and says, "but 10 to 1, thats not fair."

At 900 Cylon fighters (Apollo's estimate) to Galactica's 75 that works out to 12 to 1. The fleet is going to have a bad day!

[Dayton3]

Originally posted by repcisg
A bit of speculation - both the Cylons and the Colonials used the same fuel to power their ships. At Caralon the fleet found a major mining operation, mining tylium. Where was all that fuel going? Adama suspected it was going to the Cylon, which we find out was true. If Caralon was a major fuel source for the Cylons wouldn’t its destruction cause serious problems for them?

Well in Saga of A Star World we also know that the Cylons had a major refueling and support base at Borallus. Sir Uri wanted to go there for refueling (the idiot).

But the point about Carrillon is a good one.

One might speculate tjat it was the loss of Carrillon (and the Imperious Leader and his Base Star) which made the Cylon pursuit of the ragtag fleet so tepid and half hearted at times.

[SpyOne]

Got a few more questions and comments.

Reg, have you considered in your formation analysis stuff that the formation might be changing? I mean, the events take place over several hours. Perhaps one formation was used to travel to the conference, and another once there.
Also, perhaps some ships moved around. For instance, Galactica might move close to Atlantia when Adama was moving between them (to reduce the length of the shuttle trip).
Just some thoughts, there.

Another thing that had occured to me is that, (assuming there were few battlestars at Cimtar rather than many) it seems like the Cylons had been making some advances. The Pegasus can't have gone missing more than a couple of years before Cimtar, IMO, and it seems that the Cylons may have recently put a major dent in the fleet. This would pressure the Colonies into wanting peace talks for reasons in addition to just being nice non-genocidal guys. :) Needing at the very least time to replace the recently destroyed battlestars, the Colonies renew their requests for an armistice. The Cylons see this as the perfect time for a sneak attack.

Last stray bit: Just as we are supposing that the battlestars were going to Cimtar with minimal Vipers (as a show of trust and such), they may have intentionally left their escort vessels behind for the same cerimonial reasons.

[repcisg]

There is pretty solid evidence the fleet does not change formation prior to the attack. The initial formation seen at the beginning is seen again during Apollo and Zack’s return. We see Zac fly the length of the fleet and the ships are all in the same positions. And this is just after Adam has returned from the presidents ship. Secondly the shuttles used seem to be fast enough to make moving ships around unnecessary. It is normal for military formations to remain stable for reasons of control and safety. You don’t want Battlestars bumping into one another.

In his conversation with Adama, President Adar makes it quite clear “It is the Cylons who sued for peace.” Adar's attitude suggests he sees this as a major victory for the Colonials and the war is truly over. Humanity can be magnanimous in their victory. Adama sees it very differently, which tells me yes humanity is winning but the Cylons are still very powerful and dangerous. To him the victory has come much too easily.

Lastly leaving any escort types at home would be in keeping with Adar’s willing ness to demonstrate humanities trust and magnanimity. Good idea there.

rep

[repcisg]

Another thought on why there were more than five ships. At the beginning of his toast to the delegates seated at the table Adar says, "I know you are all anxious to return to your ships be fore we rendezvous with the Cylons."

What ships? There were at least 12 delegates at the table counting Adam. None joined Adama on the Galactica and none appeared to stay on the Atlantia or so Adars comment implies. So where did they go? If they were 3-4 per ship why not one or two on the Galatica. All implications are she was no different than any other ship.

Just a thought.

[SpyOne]

Good catch about the delegates.

I suspect that that is part of where the whole "12 Battlestars" came from. It seems that Adama is there both as Commander of the Galactica and as the representative of Caprica. This got people assuming that each colony produced 1 Battlestar.

The notion of 5 Battlestars comes from 2 intersecting sources, IMO.
1) Never do more than five appear on screen at once.
2) only five are mentioned by name in the pilot.
However, notes from the production folks add Solaria as being at the Peace Conference. Since Triton (which some have suggested was an eascort ship) is clearly called a Battlestar in dialogue, this would suggest that at least six Battlestars were present.

I would note that Columbia is a little iffy. It only appears in a conversation where both parties have a motive to lie. When the human says he's from the Columbia, he is definitely lying. The only question is whether he made up the name of the ship or chose the name of another ship.
When the Cylon says the Columbia was destroyed at the Peace Conference, he may have been lying or mistaken. Is it possable the Cylons don't know the names of all the Battlestars that were there? I mean, they may have known how many there were but not known their names. Even if they knew them all, the Cylon might not want to reveal to the human how much they know about what ship was where.

Is there a dialogue reference in the pilot about how many Base Stars the Cylons have? I mean in total. This would be a good clue to how many Battlestars would match them.

I'm enjoying this discussion. :salute:

[repcisg]

It is graet fun :D

How many Base ships in the Cylon fleet, tough question. But my estimate would be not as many as most fans would expect. The reason being they just did not need that many. Being a machine race Baseships would be needed to provide long-range transport for fighters. Then act as a service center for local operations until a base can be built. We see in the battle at Cimtar, fighters can operate far from any base with only tanker support, in-flight refueling. The Humans need Battlestars for pilot support. Pilots need to rest, eat, and do the other things Cylon warriors do not need to do.

In the attack we see three Baseships orbiting Caprica and it is implied there are three around the other two inner worlds, for a total of nine Baseships.. After the planets defenses are defeated these Baseship regroup and attack the outer worlds (9 of them). The implication here is, they are lesser worlds with minimal defenses, one Baseship each is be enough.

Then the Cylons with draw. I would assume they are regrouping, recovering the fighters from the attack on the fleet and joining up with the transports carrying the troops assigned to occupy the Colonial home worlds. This would be the right move. Especially if the Cylons have a limit on the number of forces available to them. This combined force would then proceed to invade the Colonial home worlds. Now had the Fleet not been destroyed but only beaten up then the Cylons would have enough firepower to prevent the fleet from stopping the invasion on their home worlds. Either way Humanity in that part of the universe is toast.

The fact that the Imperious leader had to take his ship to Carillon also implies they were short on Baseships.

Later in Living Legend it is obvious the local Cylons do not have a Baseship but rather are depending on fighter-tanker escort groups to cover convoys of supplies. It is only when Baltar arrives do the Cylons have Baseships on site.

Assuming only 9, just for the sake of argument, one is destroyed at Carillon and two at Gamoray. That leaves 6 to cover the Colonial home worlds and pursue the Galactica. And the sixty-four dollar question is would they need more? And if so how fast can they be built and how many would they need?

One thing to remember these machines (Battlestars and Baseships) are going to be very costly in resources to build.

Just as a point of reference, a modern Aircraft Carrier take 8 years to build. A Battlestar has a proximately 560 time the volume of a modern Carrier. If we extrapolate that out based just on volume it would be reasonable to see it take 15 to 20 years to build a Baseship or Battlestar. With that kind of gestation time you would expect to see very old ships remain in operation as long as they were effective. IMO

:salute:

[AlphaAce]

Originally posted by repcisg
It is graet fun :D

How many Base ships in the Cylon fleet, tough question. But my estimate would be not as many as most fans would expect. The reason being they just did not need that many. Being a machine race Baseships would be needed to provide long-range transport for fighters. Then act as a service center for local operations until a base can be built. We see in the battle at Cimtar, fighters can operate far from any base with only tanker support, in-flight refueling. The Humans need Battlestars for pilot support. Pilots need to rest, eat, and do the other things Cylon warriors do not need to do.

In the attack we see three Baseships orbiting Caprica and it is implied there are three around the other two inner worlds, for a total of nine Baseships.. After the planets defenses are defeated these Baseship regroup and attack the outer worlds (9 of them). The implication here is, they are lesser worlds with minimal defenses, one Baseship each is be enough.

Then the Cylons with draw. I would assume they are regrouping, recovering the fighters from the attack on the fleet and joining up with the transports carrying the troops assigned to occupy the Colonial home worlds. This would be the right move. Especially if the Cylons have a limit on the number of forces available to them. This combined force would then proceed to invade the Colonial home worlds. Now had the Fleet not been destroyed but only beaten up then the Cylons would have enough firepower to prevent the fleet from stopping the invasion on their home worlds. Either way Humanity in that part of the universe is toast.

The fact that the Imperious leader had to take his ship to Carillon also implies they were short on Baseships.

Later in Living Legend it is obvious the local Cylons do not have a Baseship but rather are depending on fighter-tanker escort groups to cover convoys of supplies. It is only when Baltar arrives do the Cylons have Baseships on site.

Assuming only 9, just for the sake of argument, one is destroyed at Carillon and two at Gamoray. That leaves 6 to cover the Colonial home worlds and pursue the Galactica. And the sixty-four dollar question is would they need more? And if so how fast can they be built and how many would they need?

One thing to remember these machines (Battlestars and Baseships) are going to be very costly in resources to build.

Just as a point of reference, a modern Aircraft Carrier take 8 years to build. A Battlestar has a proximately 560 time the volume of a modern Carrier. If we extrapolate that out based just on volume it would be reasonable to see it take 15 to 20 years to build a Baseship or Battlestar. With that kind of gestation time you would expect to see very old ships remain in operation as long as they were effective. IMO

:salute:

This is an interesting analysis; however, you are assuming that the colonials and the cylons are limited to a modern-day industrial capacity. The cylons might have many basestars, but they probably have a lot of territory to patrol and protect. Their empire was stated to expand across the "universe". Who knows that actually means though?

[repcisg]

AlphaAce,

Thanks for the input.:thumbsup:

You’re right they could have had more, spread out covering their space but because they are machines and not living organisms their needs are different. For example if they found a planet inhabited by a low technology race, they would not need to send a Baseship to subdue them. A few inexpensive transports and fighters would do.

For the Cylons Baseships would be better used out on their frontiers acting as forward basses, very much the way we use a modern carrier. Once bases are established carriers become supplemental or can be moved elsewhere.

But I think, if the Cylons had more they would have used them in taking down the Colonials. After all time was on their side, they had time to marshal their forces and plan in detail how the attack would be carried out. Rather like Japan at Pearl Harbor they used every thing they had.

As a comparison, Moore’s version depicts a Cylon Empire with the forces necessary to hit and stay. He depicts a much more powerful enemy, more like the US forces at the end of WWII.

:D

[AlphaAce]

Originally posted by repcisg
AlphaAce,

Thanks for the input.:thumbsup:

You’re right they could have had more, spread out covering their space but because they are machines and not living organisms their needs are different. For example if they found a planet inhabited by a low technology race, they would not need to send a Baseship to subdue them. A few inexpensive transports and fighters would do.

For the Cylons Baseships would be better used out on their frontiers acting as forward basses, very much the way we use a modern carrier. Once bases are established carriers become supplemental or can be moved elsewhere.

But I think, if the Cylons had more they would have used them in taking down the Colonials. After all time was on their side, they had time to marshal their forces and plan in detail how the attack would be carried out. Rather like Japan at Pearl Harbor they used every thing they had.

As a comparison, Moore’s version depicts a Cylon Empire with the forces necessary to hit and stay. He depicts a much more powerful enemy, more like the US forces at the end of WWII.

:D

You could be right about the Cylons and their uses of the basestars; however, we really don't know how many other serious threats there are to their empire. The colonials might have just been a minor threat in comparison. The colonials didn't seem to have a lot of luck actually attacking cylon holdings. For example, Cain's fleet was wiped out (except for the Pegasus) when he launched an offensive into the Cylon Empire. The Cylons had a tough time wiping out the colonials because of their more effective viper squadrons; however, I doubt the colonials at any time actually threatened the existence of the Cylon Empire. That is off topic though.

The Cylons could have pulled back and regrouped because they were not in position to land ground forces when they launched the surprise attack. It is possible that their troop transports were kept safely out of the battle zone until the colonies were bombarded and the fleet destroyed. They then regrouped in order to provide an escort for the transports. I don't see why that means they were limited in the number of basestars they had. Like I said before, they have other borders to defend, so why would they use more than the just the right number of basestars to take out the colonials? :salute:

[Dayton3]

I think any objective analysis would show that based on what we saw onscreen, the Cylons had limited resources.

Because if they had plenty of baseships and fighters, there would simply be no need for the treachery and subterfuge they used in "Saga of A Star World". You don't use such machinations if you have the upper hand.

[AlphaAce]

Originally posted by Dayton3
I think any objective analysis would show that based on what we saw onscreen, the Cylons had limited resources.

Because if they had plenty of baseships and fighters, there would simply be no need for the treachery and subterfuge they used in "Saga of A Star World". You don't use such machinations if you have the upper hand.

Indeed, the Cylons could only field a few basestars against the Colonials. I'm not so sure as to the argument that they are limited in basestars though. We are assuming that they are limited in their ability to produce basestars because of the force that wiped out the colonies; however, like I mentioned before they control a vast amount of territory and they had forces strung out across the galaxy while they were pursuing the rag tag fleet. That doesn't strike me as a force with a limited number of basestars. Granted, there isn't evidence to support my supposition that the Cylons regarded the colonials as a minor threat in comparison to other enemies; however, I don't think it is fair to assume that they can't produce a lot of basestars either.

The cylons are machines; therefore, I would argue that it is easier for them to produce fighters and basestars due to a more effective industrial base. That is an assumption on my part, but in several episodes we hear of a vast Cylon Empire.

[repcisg]

I think the key fact illustrating the Cylons had limited ships to work with lies in the fact they had to withdraw to regroup. They did not have the ships needed to hold the Colonial worlds. After all the point of the war was the extermination of the life form known as man. Pulling back after the initial attack gave some of the survivors the opportunity to escape, and gave the Galactica time to slip in and organize a convoy of refugees. The last thing the Cylons wanted to have happen.

Most military organizations would strip other fronts for ships to ensure the success of a major operation like this. The Cylons would function no differently, in fact the cold calculus of their way of thinking would require it.

While machines would have a more efficient industrial base, there are factors that could limit their expansion. One being fuel. If the primary fuel used by them is Tylium and the Colonials controlled the major source of it. The Cylons would find themselves restricted in their growth until the Colonials were defeated. Then the Colonial fuel sources would be in their hands and rapid growth possible.

[Dayton3]

Something has occurred to me regarding the destruction of the Colonial Fleet near Cimtar.

Cimtar was a moon apparently known to the Colonials (Zac or Apollo refer to it as the "old moon Cimtar" IIRC).

That means Cimtar was in all likelihood a moon orbiting a world once controlled by the Colonials. I assume the unnamed world was uninhabited at the time of the attack given if Humans had been living there it would've made the Cylons operational security nonexistent.

Given that the Fleet was clearly traveling in the general direction of Cimtar, I think one can assume that the world Cimtar orbited was planned as the supposed meeting site with the Cylons.

Next, Apollo and Zacs patrol finding the Cylon tanker was unexpected. Perhaps their patrol schedule was earlier than the Cylons anticipated.

The Cylon tanker they initially detected was probably supposed to slip out of site into the cloud layers and protected by Cylon jamming along with the 1000 or so Cylon fighters and the other tanker.

If the Cylon battle plan had come off as hoped for, the fleet would've had no chance whatsoever. Not even the Galactica would've survived.

The battlestars would've cruised into orbit near Cimtar with no ships ready to launch, no crews manning the lasers, the pilots celebrating in the lounges. The Cylon fighters would've swarmed out and attacked at point blank range. The massacre would've been totaled.

And it would've occurred at EXACTLY the same time as the attack on the Colonies. So no battlestars would've thought to pull out and return to the Colonies even if able.

I've always assumed that the Colonies were probably in a triple star system (one of the novelizations actually says this as well) with the stars widely spaced and several colonies circling each star.

This would've explained why when basestars are first detected they are "well within striking range of Taura, Sagitara, and Caprica".

And as someone said earlier, it explains how Galactica was able to travel to Caprica relatively unopposed and organize an evacuation while the Cylons were certainly still attacking the more remote colonies.

[AlphaAce]

Originally posted by repcisg
I think the key fact illustrating the Cylons had limited ships to work with lies in the fact they had to withdraw to regroup. They did not have the ships needed to hold the Colonial worlds. After all the point of the war was the extermination of the life form known as man. Pulling back after the initial attack gave some of the survivors the opportunity to escape, and gave the Galactica time to slip in and organize a convoy of refugees. The last thing the Cylons wanted to have happen.

Most military organizations would strip other fronts for ships to ensure the success of a major operation like this. The Cylons would function no differently, in fact the cold calculus of their way of thinking would require it.

While machines would have a more efficient industrial base, there are factors that could limit their expansion. One being fuel. If the primary fuel used by them is Tylium and the Colonials controlled the major source of it. The Cylons would find themselves restricted in their growth until the Colonials were defeated. Then the Colonial fuel sources would be in their hands and rapid growth possible.


As far as Tylium is concerned, do we know that the colonials controlled the major source of it? Also, the Cylons did not withdraw from the star system completely after they launched their attacks. They were more than likely planet hopping with their forces, destroying a planet (as thoroughly as they could within the time frame they were working with) and them moving along to destroy another one. Dayton made a good point that the Galactica was able to slip into Caprica when the Cylons were occupied wiping out the rest the colonies and fighting the remaining colonial ships. That doesn't mean that they completely withdrew and regrouped for lack of resources. Do you have any more evidence to support the fact that the Cylons are strapped for resources other than their strategy for destroying the colonies? I don't think this is a resource shortage, rather it is probably a strategic mistake that the Cylons made by not thoroughly destroying every minor colonial ship that was in the system before going onto the next planet.

[Reaper]

Since this discussion had come up ove on the SyFy forums, I thought I'd repost my theories over there. I'm then going to address some of what I read here.

There is no canon evidence to suggest that there were ever only 12 Battlestars. In fact, Mr Larson has said this is a fan creation. There were only 5 Battlestars seen at any one time in the Beginning of the Show, making up the first fleet. But in dialog in both Saga of a Starworld and Gun on Ice Planey Zero, 6 Battlestar names given. 5 in Saga, and a 6th, Columbia given in GOIPZ.

Now, concider what we see. We see 5 battlestars, in a nice neat linear formation in the forward view shots. These are the shots that usually establish there were 5 battlestars there.

But when we see the interior shots of the council meeting. there is at leazst 1 Battlestar (will have to rewatch to confirm 1 or 2) visible in the window. This is a profile shot of the battlestar, meaning it's probably in formation to the side of the ship. It's possible there were more battlestars at the "peace treaty signing" but for monetary reasons, and cause it didnt' add anything to the production at the time, they only composited 5 ships at any one time.

I can look up the full list of battlestars listed at the battle of cimtar if anyone likes.


Now, about the colonies and the 12 "Pearl Harbors" that occur. Nobody has ever said whether or not there was a "home fleet" of ships based within the colonies or even if each colony had a planetray defense force. The only one ever mentioend was on Caprica. In Murder on the Rising Star, Karabdis, Baltar's main pilot and confidant, was accused of sabataging the Planetary defense networks on Caprica. This is why he went into hiding and changed his name. He was a wanted criminal. So at least on Caprica, there were ground defenses that could have helped repel the Cylon invasion. But it was turned off.

Based on the Control Baltar seemed to hold over President Adar, I wouldn't be surprised if all planetary defense forces, and any home fleets were given a Furlon (vacation time) to celebrate the coming peace. A grand, "be with your families in this historic moment" touch. Adar had no ability to see Cylon treachory. Or Baltars. He saw the Cylons looking for peace and him being the President who will give it to his people after 1000 yahrens.

My personal thoughts are that Baltar was drugging him somehow. And Baltar never left his side till the attach began to make sure that Adar never relented on the Stand down order.

Even having a patrol under fire from an unknown force, a HUGE one, since the Cylon attack force had to be on the Atlantia's scanners too, didnt' give Adar anything to reconcider. Peace was coming. And he only realized his mistake seconds before dying.

The Military had their hands tied behind their backs. Some probably most, wanted to believe the peace, and willingly went along with everything, and those, like Adama were too few to make a difference.

It's a combination of wishful thinking and sabatage that casued the destruction of the colonies.

Now, it's been pointed out that Dialog notes that only the Galactica was able to launch Vipers. And at the time of Starbuck's Landing 25 of the 67 or sop Vipers were fromt he Galactica. That leaves more then half the Vipers form somewhere else. Now, after the Initial report of no other Vipers launched, it's possible that during the attack, before hte cylons were able to disable all the battlestar's launch bays, some Warriors were able to launch themselves. But it's also possible that some of those Vipers and pilots were from the "home Fleets" I mentioned above. And from groud positions. Even During the attack on Dec 7th, Hickum Field was able to launch 2 Fighters during the attack itself.

It's improbable that the Colonial fleet only consisted of Battlestars. Patrol ships, escorts, Tankers, supply ships, cruisers, CARRIERS etc.

Anyone else looking to restart the thread? :)

[Jubal]

I always got the impression that there was one Battlestar to protect a colony. 12 Colonies, 12 Battlestars.

Though something I heard today while watching "Living Legend" made me wonder, the Battlestar Pegasus of the "5th Fleet". Huh?

Yeh, "Carriers" (Battlestars), Destroyers, Escorts, subtenders, refueling ships, tugs, they all would have existed.

And in short, (being one of those that love the stories of the colonials going back and kicking Cylon tail) I can agree that the possibility for other ships and other spinoffs is highly possible. When the attack happened, ships would have scattered into multiple directions. Adama leading 220 ships is amazing, and needed. But all those other military ships, like Pegasus, not bogged down by civilians would have, while under silence, worked to find ways to fight back. :)

----------

One thing mentioned earlier in this thread was that the cylons were a vast empire covering a lot of space. I seem to recall the way that humanity got into the war was standing up for another race against the Cylons. Whatever the case, I got the impression as the Cylon empire was being described reminded me of my biblical history.

Cylons are like the Philistines. The Colonies are like Isreal.

The Philistines in history were vast, and while their wars with Isreal are not recorded as much, conflict with Egypt is well recorded!

If I were to make a spin off, one where humanity is gearing up against the Cylon empire... a quest... not for other humans, but for other enemies of the Cylons for allies would be the quest I'd undertake!

[gmd3d]

I always got the impression that there was one Battlestar to protect a colony. 12 Colonies, 12 Battlestars.

Though something I heard today while watching "Living Legend" made me wonder, the Battlestar Pegasus of the "5th Fleet". Huh?

Yeh, "Carriers" (Battlestars), Destroyers, Escorts, subtenders, refueling ships, tugs, they all would have existed.

And in short, (being one of those that love the stories of the colonials going back and kicking Cylon tail) I can agree that the possibility for other ships and other spinoffs is highly possible. When the attack happened, ships would have scattered into multiple directions. Adama leading 220 ships is amazing, and needed. But all those other military ships, like Pegasus, not bogged down by civilians would have, while under silence, worked to find ways to fight back. :)

----------

One thing mentioned earlier in this thread was that the cylons were a vast empire covering a lot of space. I seem to recall the way that humanity got into the war was standing up for another race against the Cylons. Whatever the case, I got the impression as the Cylon empire was being described reminded me of my biblical history.

Cylons are like the Philistines. The Colonies are like Isreal.

The Philistines in history were vast, and while their wars with Isreal are not recorded as much, conflict with Egypt is well recorded!

If I were to make a spin off, one where humanity is gearing up against the Cylon empire... a quest... not for other humans, but for other enemies of the Cylons for allies would be the quest I'd undertake!

Interesting ideas there ..... I also thought it was one Battlestar per world .. supported by smaller vessels other than Vipers and shuttle craft that is ....
unfortunately many things at the time where not addressed.


shows how viewer have changed since the 1970s :) need or wanting a bigger picture. :)

[Benedict]

All I can add is that I always think of the Fifth Fleet being like what the US Navy would call a CVBG, a carrie battle group. A couple, maybe 3-4 Battlestar's with support ships. Makes sense a little that the Colonial Fleet would not have just battlestar's but other vessels.

Trouble with the whole thing being so sketchy. I've seen a couple of sites where it's contradictory about the fleet's history or types of Battlestar. Like the Pacifica being a Colombia-class but then being a seperate class of Battlestar.

Just some seemingly random cubits on my part. :)

[gmd3d]

All I can add is that I always think of the Fifth Fleet being like what the US Navy would call a CVBG, a carrie battle group. A couple, maybe 3-4 Battlestar's with support ships. Makes sense a little that the Colonial Fleet would not have just battlestar's but other vessels.

Trouble with the whole thing being so sketchy. I've seen a couple of sites where it's contradictory about the fleet's history or types of Battlestar. Like the Pacifica being a Colombia-class but then being a seperate class of Battlestar.

Just some seemingly random cubits on my part. :)

that works for me ...... that the nature of these sites ,, 10 site 10 different ideas :) ..

personally I like to wonder about it, but if it was not mentioned on screen by cast or production team .. it stays in the realm of our dreams :D:D,

having said that .. Battlestar are huge so building the could be prohibitive and perhaps the Cylon base stars are the same..

and given that the Cylon Empire is large have to stretch there forces
to contain it..... perhaps in the case of "saga" they took a chance or calculated risk.
brought in a large number of there ships and fighters from other sectors of Cylon space for the main attack.
Baltar was used to insure it "Peace"

and the Galactica and the Rag tag fleet where able to use the stretched out Cylon fleet to escape...

never thought about it like that before .. :smart:

[Jubal]

It does amaze me now that I think about it that the colonies could be evacuated DURING a major Cylon attack, but somehow they were able to get ships together, launch, and get with the fleet during all that.

[gmd3d]

It does amaze me now that I think about it that the colonies could be evacuated DURING a major Cylon attack, but somehow they were able to get ships together, launch, and get with the fleet during all that.

Ahh well you see .. I will tell you a little secret.... "The Director was on the colonial side" But don´t tell the others ,.. they have been string themselves along for years on other ideas. :LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:

But yeah ..... I suppose the Cylons would have say knocked out the main military installations left the civilian ports more or less intact. moved on to other military stations and ship .. we assume that they where there :)

Perhaps you could say that some civilian ships escaped during the attack .. as they could have been making of planet trips anyway .. and blasted off before they where hit...... the Cylons seen it might have followed a directive from the leader "Destroy the Colonial Fleet" Civilian ships where no treat.

good point:smart:

[Jubal]

... the Cylons seen it might have followed a directive from the leader "Destroy the Colonial Fleet" Civilian ships where no treat.

good point:smart:

You know, we have been spoiled by commander Data's and other non-human life that become sentient and start thinking like humans.

But watching Fireball XL5 (1963)(who knows what that is?) and Robert the Robot reminded me that some mechanical life forms are only programmed to do what they are told to do.

It is possible that the Cylons were commanded, as you say, to "Destroy the Colonial Fleet". And that would have been all they would have seen. Anything else would have been invisible to them.

Soooo... knowing this, is it possible the Galactica (being part the fleet) would have realized this... stayed hidden, and had the civilian fleet come to them?

[gmd3d]

You know, we have been spoiled by commander Data's and other non-human life that become sentient and start thinking like humans.

But watching Fireball XL5 (1963)(who knows what that is?) and Robert the Robot reminded me that some mechanical life forms are only programmed to do what they are told to do.

It is possible that the Cylons were commanded, as you say, to "Destroy the Colonial Fleet". And that would have been all they would have seen. Anything else would have been invisible to them.

Soooo... knowing this, is it possible the Galactica (being part the fleet) would have realized this... stayed hidden, and had the civilian fleet come to them?

good point ..... Adama does say in his dialogue "and the came etc etc .." it would have been the smart or a smart move on Adamas part ..

[Benedict]

Good point if the Cylons were pre-programmed just to attack the fleet. It's one thing about Saga that I think off, when you see the ships all flying off from the destroyed Colonies and the Cylons seemingly not too fussed.

And yes I remember Fireball XL5 but not as much as I do Captain Scarlet, Thunderbirds and Stingray :)

[gmd3d]

Good point if the Cylons were pre-programmed just to attack the fleet. It's one thing about Saga that I think off, when you see the ships all flying off from the destroyed Colonies and the Cylons seemingly not too fussed.

And yes I remember Fireball XL5 but not as much as I do Captain Scarlet, Thunderbirds and Stingray :)

the Cylons would be very literal minded i think ..

I like your avatar Benedict .. it catches of of my fav moments with
Anne Lockhart ... Sheba .. that over the shoulder smile / flirt ..

like Starbuck met his equal

[Benedict]

the Cylons would be very literal minded i think ..

I like your avatar Benedict .. it catches of of my fav moments with
Anne Lockhart ... Sheba .. that over the shoulder smile / flirt ..

like Starbuck met his equal

thank you Taranis. One of my favourite moments also, typical Starbuck only to be more or less shot down by her. The smile is quite dazzling I think. :blush:

[gmd3d]

thank you Taranis. The smile is quite dazzling I think. :blush:

your welcome ..

I agree about the smile ..

[WarMachine]

Well, it has been 5 years ( :eek: ), but I discussed my views on this here: http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12033

And Jubal & Benedict - I didn't get to say it until now, but Welcome Aboard! :salute:

[Benedict]

thanks WarMachine, good to be aboard :salute:

[gmd3d]

Well, it has been 5 years ( :eek: ), but I discussed my views on this here: http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12033

And Jubal & Benedict - I didn't get to say it until now, but Welcome Aboard! :salute:

I remember reading your thread when you first came on WarMachine its still a sound idea .. so it works for me .. I will have to read it again after some coffee to wake me up

[HDE]

Hi all,

I often wandered, how is it possible with only five battlestars to see that patterns, when camera changes view on the fleet in the pilot. Well, it's not, unless battlestars change formation for each new shot from different position and then assume the position they had before, when the camera moves back. This would be difficult even if the ships were in full alert and doing this risky formation changes because of some battle tactics. Which certainly isn't the case. (Of course the only really sane answer is, that battlestars were placed during the filming in the position that pleased director aesthetically and that he didn't care about the real number of battlestars:cry:. But, we, the fans, need to see the opening sequence as something that really happened:nervous:)

If I consider the formation as reality, minimum number of battlestars that can be present to be shown in this way is 9 with some lucky movements into the shot at the right time. To me, the most probable number is somewhere between 10 and 20, but I'd find it difficult to believe that here were more than 30.

Now, what do I believe happend during the attack. Did any of you notice, that Adama was the only one in the council of 12 dressed in colonial uniform. It is possible, that he was some sort of military representative (in addition to Caprican) to the council. If the other ships were run by civilian commanders or at least their commanders were overruled by civilians, it is quite obvious why the entire fleet reaction time to attack was so terrible. In case of around 10 battlestars present, it's quite likely, that Galactica was the only surviving ship. As someone said before, with about 5 ships, even Galactica would have problems escaping and with about 20 or more ships, the possibility of other ships escaping starts to rise considerably. But if any other battlestar escaped, I believe some of the 67 Viper pilots picked up, could have seen it.

I have a theory, why humans were so easily led to the trap, but it needs a bit changed human to Cylon power ratings.

It is not much known of the battle of Molecay, but it is speculated to be a Cylon victory. What if this speculation is wrong? Commander Cain was after all a legend even after this battle even when it was thaught he died with his battlestar and fleet. You can't just lose a fleet and achieve nothing and remain being known as the legendary and greatest leader.

Imagine that in the war opponents were close in power, but that the fifth fleet was up to a very daring operation, aiming to do a fatal blow to the Cylon empire and destroy (what colonials believe) Cylon main or even the only source of tylium capable of providing quantities neeed to wage a war. Most if not all of the Cylon force comes to protect Molecay, but Cain still manages to destroy it, even at the cost of the entire fleet. That would certainly help him being legendary.

Colonials (not knowing of Cylons geting tylium from Carillon) are lulled and sencirely believe that Cylons are no longer able to operate all of their military equipment. It is assumed, that Cylons have had enough and that they really want peace. Even Baltar sees them as an enemy weak enough, that he can deal with them later with his colony alone.

Well that seems to me as an interesting way to revive original BSG. Adventures of Pegasus, starting with the battle of Molecay. There are only two characteres form that battlestar that fans really remember well, so it would be easier to do with new crew. ... only dreaming :drool: ...

[Aerik]

I felt that the nominal strength of the fleet was six battlestars. In the novelization of SAGA, the Pacifica was mentioned as being destroyed, which left Atlantia, Galactica, Solaria, Columbia, plus a fifth battlestar (Olympica?). The only other ship type mentioned was battlecruisers. I think the term 'fleets' used in the colonial fleet parlance was analogous to what we would refer to as expeditions. The 4th fleet (Cosmora Archaepolago) with the Rycon would then be the 4th Expedition. The Fifth Fleet with the Pegasus was the fifth expedition to leave the colonies (Molecay). An expedition would be a gathering of Colonial Fleet assets (battlestars, battlecruisers, Vipers, etc.) and a fleet train of civilian shipping for an operation outside of the Cyrannus System (Galaxy).

[Senmut]

Indeed, the Cylons could only field a few basestars against the Colonials. I'm not so sure as to the argument that they are limited in basestars though. We are assuming that they are limited in their ability to produce basestars because of the force that wiped out the colonies; however, like I mentioned before they control a vast amount of territory and they had forces strung out across the galaxy while they were pursuing the rag tag fleet. That doesn't strike me as a force with a limited number of basestars. Granted, there isn't evidence to support my supposition that the Cylons regarded the colonials as a minor threat in comparison to other enemies; however, I don't think it is fair to assume that they can't produce a lot of basestars either.

The cylons are machines; therefore, I would argue that it is easier for them to produce fighters and basestars due to a more effective industrial base. That is an assumption on my part, but in several episodes we hear of a vast Cylon Empire.


Had the Cylons shifted sufficient BaseShips to Cimtar Sector to engage the Fleet, intel would have doubtless picked up on it. Having several of your enemy's top-of-the-line capital ships suddenly deploy to parts unknown right before a "peace conference" would get noticed, and raise immediate suspicions. But, a slow, bit by bit deployment of fighters, flying from refueling point to refueling point, and then the movement of a few tankers, over a period of sectons or sectars, might slip by unnoticed, while the BaseShips and their respective battle groups remain in "home waters". As each fighter squadron leaves, it is replaced by others. Again, slowly, bit-by-bit, so as to arouse no potential suspicions. By the time of the rendezvous, sufficient strength has been ammassed at Cimtar to, if not destroy all the Colonial ships, at least tie them down until the Colonies have been wiped out. Once the attack at Cimtar has begun, the BaseShips tasked for the attack jump into lightspeed, headed for the Colonies.
Make sense?

[Norsehound]

If I can drop some thoughts into this old discussion...

In my mind I always presumed Battlestars were huge pillars of Colonial construction designed to withstand the thousand-year war, maybe to match base ships or maybe not. Either way they came halfway in the war to turn the tide and managed to do a good job in doing so. One colony built each of them as a show of solidarity but attrition has taken its toll, and now the colonies are down to 5 (Well 7 really... including the Pegasus and the Prometheus from the hypothetical season 2).

Being that Battlestars are all-important fighting symbols naturally there's a fleet to do the grunt work and all the things that would be wasted on sending a Battlestar. Likely they were elsewhere in Saga, either on furlon or out on patrol. Given the disposition of the quorum I don't think anyone would disagree presuming the President immediately dropped to lax security since he fully believed in Baltar's deliverance of peace.

I also had the impression that the Cylon empire was very big. So big that their base ships matched the Galactic Empire's Star Destroyers in numbers. But the reason they didn't swarm humanity is that humanity was a very difficult enemy to overcome and no swarm attack would gain enough momentum to succeed (sabotaged by humans and their cleverness). They used the ruse of the peace in order to isolate the Battlestars and human leadership and crush them in a decisive blow. Baltar perhaps showed them how easily humans can be duped, so when the Cylons threw the punch they threw to get the best crunch out of it.

I believe there are military vessels in the Rag-Tag fleet, but with each one crammed with survivors their efficiency for military operations is drastically reduced. This of course after the cylons blew up every ground-based military outpost and starport with all the vessels and ships parked there.

[WarMachine]

...My personal thoughts are that Baltar was drugging him somehow. And Baltar never left his side till the attach began to make sure that Adar never relented on the Stand down order.

Even having a patrol under fire from an unknown force, a HUGE one, since the Cylon attack force had to be on the Atlantia's scanners too, didnt' give Adar anything to reconcider. Peace was coming. And he only realized his mistake seconds before dying.

The Military had their hands tied behind their backs. Some probably most, wanted to believe the peace, and willingly went along with everything, and those, like Adama were too few to make a difference.

It's a combination of wishful thinking and sabatage that casued the destruction of the colonies...


You know, I never even considered the 'deliberate doping' angle in this :blink:, but it would mesh very well with Baltar's methodology...Good catch, Reaper! :thumbsup:

[WarMachine]

So, in rereading this thread, I find that I am actually okay with up to 12 (maybe 13) Battlestars at Cimtar, based not only on the on-screen views, but on the number of councilors present. Also, there is a symbolic element to having one Battlestar representing each Colony be present at the signing of the peace agreement that ended a long and brutal war.

That said, there is simply no way for there to have been only 5-12 Battlestars in the entire Colonial Fleet -- as Cimtar itself demonstrates, as tough as Battlestars may be, they are not bullet-/bomb-proof...and because of this, they would have taken steady losses all throughout the war.

A total "in service" fleet of 40-50 Battlestars seems far more likely to me, since ships would be constantly in port, repairing battle damage and refitting/rebuilding squadrons. With each Colony's "flagship" at Cimtar, most of the others would have been "riding at anchor", so to speak, above their "home port" worlds...ripe for destruction "at anchor", since most pilots and crews would have been on furlon.....

.....Of course, that number of other Battlestars can easily allow for other escapee's -- who just hadn't caught up to the Gal by the end of HoG..... ;)

[Norsehound]

Meh, personally I liked the idea that Adar was that stupid, better. Given modern politics nowadays I can really believe someone would be that stupid to believe peace from an utterly ruthless, uncompromising force.

I can't see Baltar using chemicals to win his way over, especially against someone so high-profile.

[Punisher454]

My take on this is very similar to what Warmachine said above. I also tend to agree with what Norsehound said about about Adar's stupidity. We have plenty of examples of such mentality here on earth.
I've always been partial to the idea of there being 12 Battlestars present at Cimitar. Not because I think thats the whole fleet, but perhaps 12 Battlestars representing the 12 colonies at the "historic" event. Each colony would send its flagship and representative. It was symbolic, and it should be obvious that symbolism is big in BSG.

I think there would be more than 12 Battlestars in the Colonial fleet, but I'm thinking far less than 50. Although we know nothing about Colonial economics and production capabilities I think that the construction of even a single Battlestar would be a monumental task heavily taxing the resources of a planet of humans in an apparently free society. Building just one would take perhaps 5 or more Yahrens even with a huge workforce and a massive industrial engine. The tonnage of a Battlestar is almost incomprehensible. I also think that the Colonial home worlds were far less populated than we are here on earth which would tend to imply a proportionally smaller work force.

I think that at the time of the destruction the Cylon fleet probably had up to 20 or 30 BaseStars. The Final annihilation could have been done with less than 8-10 total BaseStars, the rest would have been deployed back home keeping their empire secure.
I would suspect that there were a few more Battlestars at their home ports undermanned and unprepared for the attack. Think 'Pearl Harbor' an entire fleet crippled and nearly destroyed while sitting in port un-prepared for a sneak attack. Some Battlestars would undoubtedly be under-repair at any given time.

[Senmut]

Twelve Battlestars sounds good, given the comparison with the U.S. Navy. We by law can have only 12 carriers in service at any one time. I must therfore disagree with Warmachine, since Battlestars, like our carriers, were never designed to work in isolation. Each is the centerpiece of a battlegroup, which would consist of the Colonial equivalent of cruisers, destroyers, possibly battleships, AWACS, and various other vessels, not to mention Viper patrols, all working in tandem to protect and harmonize ops with the Battlestar, and achieve the objective. When Cronus says he "commanded the Rycon and 600 fighting ships", he cannot have meant 600 large vessels, and that multiplied by 12 Colonies. The Rycon, her escort vessels, and hundreds of Vipers would make more sense. Battle fleets of such vast size, and numbers, would beggar the Colonies. The Cylons, of course, have no such problems, since I doubt they "pay" for anything.

[gmd3d]

I see the Battlestars working in a fleet or as a individual ship patrolling areas.

I also think that using the navy fleet arrangements (US or otherwise) as a guide to colonial arrangement is really hamstring the colonial fighting ability.

I think that a battlestar is not only a carrier, its (once it Viper craft have launched into battle) a Battle-cruiser.

Cain used the Pegasus as a Battle cruiser not a aircraft carrier when he went for the Cylon Baseships...

I think 40 or 50 Battlestars is a good number for the colonial forces to hold the line.

I've always been partial to the idea of there being 12 Battlestars present at Cimitar. Not because I think thats the whole fleet, but perhaps 12 Battlestars representing the 12 colonies at the "historic" event. Each colony would send its flagship and representative. It was symbolic, and it should be obvious that symbolism is big in BSG.
I agree with this and its how I always saw it.

it also depends I think on how the colonies are arranged..

Single system (one Star) - (never liked that idea, as it not feasible)
Multi system, (Few Stars) - (Better in my mind to have the colonies spreed over a few systems. than things work better for a long drawn out war that could last a 1000 years, etc..)

In my mind a single system (one star) of colonies would not last long with a Cylon fleet hammering at your door of years, like a Island in space..... it would fold sooner or later.......

multi system is a better view in my mind for a long war to be carried, there is on one place the Cylons could focus and with brute force brake down the Colonial defiance,

In each colonial system you have the enormous resources to carry a fight with the Cylons for long periods.

Once one system is attacked you can call on the support of the nearest colonies to help beat them back...

that is my view anyway....

there are so may ways to view this...... :D

[Senmut]

Multi-system does fit with Omega's reference to "all inner planets", and then later to "all outer planets".

[Reaper]

You also have to concider that Colonial Society is not set on the 12 Colony Planets. There are references to "Satelights" This implies the colonization of more planets and moons. Each planey or satalight may not be as populated as Earth is, but in total, they have the manpower and resources to build ALOT!! concider That up till at least the 6th Milienium The Colonies had prison Astroids FAR from the home worlds.

Plus strip mining astroids and dead moons, the Colonies have the resources to Build ALOT of Battlestars and can probably even man them. Even concidering the lack of robotic construction that Earth has developed (due to their enemy being Robots) I think they can support 40 or so total battlestars. ANd smaller support ships.

And another note about Cronus and his 600 Ship 4th Fleet. YOu have to take into account that If he was including Vipers in his fleet, then the Galactica is still commanding a fleet for 151 ships, But Cronus Implied that the Galactica Stood alone in the Rag Tag Fleet. From this you cvan infer that Vipers were not counted in the Fleet strength estimate. Same way the Carrier Airwing wouldn't be included in a modern fleet number.

[Punisher454]

Yes a Battlestar is much more than just a carrier. I think its an all-in-one supreme fighting ship.
I believe that the primary defense on a Battlestar is mass, lots of it. BSG does not use shields like we see in Trek and to a lesser extent Star Wars. To survive in battle a battlestar has to be big enough to absorb a lot of pounding. This means that there is a lot of usable space inside. The battlestar serves as the carrier, the battleship and the troop transport.
While I do think there would be other combat vessels such as long range scouting ships I dont think colonial battle groups would have large numbers of intermediate sized craft. Most of the ship types we see with earth Naval craft have simply been consolidated.

[Norsehound]

Maybe I'm a simplist, but I always thought 12 colonies = 12 inhabited stellar bodies orbiting a star (or binary?). I dunno, oddly enough that's one thing I never sat down to think about. But if the Lords of Kobol were indeed as miraculous as they were to the colonials, perhaps it's not too far to believe that 12 colonies were engineered that way and forgotten about.

Senmut I feel your perception of a Battlestar seems to fit in line with what the nBSG galactica appeared to be. Personally I thought Colonial doctrine had more emphasis on the Battlestar as the hammer and the colonial fleet as the anvil. Battleships weren't entirely replaced, they were just augmented with fighters. That they hit so hard and are so expensive and large also suggested that there were only a few of them (Five, instead of dozens at cimtar). None of the other colonial vessels appear to come close to Galactica's size. We have supertankers in the modern day that reach the size of supercarriers- you'd think that there would be commercial craft as large as a battlestar if that kind of scale was near commonplace. At least, the SFX department didn't go out of their way to show a ship distinctly bigger than the Galactica...

There was talk about the Colonial defenses at Caprica (And others) being shut down by sabetuers, but if I ever command a remake of Saga I would want to add some show by the Colonial air force against the cylons. Think of them as the national guard I guess, being forced to re-arm with real munitions while wearing parade colors. Wouldn't that be a sight!

[Punisher454]

The real problem here is that we were given so very little to go on. I think a remake of Saga (if it ever happens) should have at least an hour of screen time to show the fleet as well as normal colonial life before the destruction.

[Norsehound]

I'm an amateur writer, not a screenplay writer with lots of practice, but if it were up to me I'd use the lamenting and woes of the fugitives to describe what life was before the destruction. Could be incentives for some.

What we got in Saga was enough if it had some subtle expansions. The main fleet for example would have smaller escorts, or some line dropped about how the 'prestigious battlestars' are alone representing the colonies. If the people are in decadent celebration on Caprica, then show some display of it as Serina is making her broadcast (tho I think one re-write outline I had somewhere had her interviewing Ila, who essentially describes how Caprican culture is letting its guard down like the military is).

Lack of material isn't exactly the problem... look how much came out of Star Wars after all!

[Senmut]

Yes a Battlestar is much more than just a carrier. I think its an all-in-one supreme fighting ship.
I believe that the primary defense on a Battlestar is mass, lots of it. BSG does not use shields like we see in Trek and to a lesser extent Star Wars. To survive in battle a battlestar has to be big enough to absorb a lot of pounding. This means that there is a lot of usable space inside. The battlestar serves as the carrier, the battleship and the troop transport.
While I do think there would be other combat vessels such as long range scouting ships I dont think colonial battle groups would have large numbers of intermediate sized craft. Most of the ship types we see with earth Naval craft have simply been consolidated.

Recall, in TLL, Cain orders "all electronic defense shields to maximum power". We also, in the pilot, see shots directed at the Atlantia diffuse into colored smears, as they strike parts of the ship. There are shields, but their capability and extent are never made clear.

[Norsehound]

I think it could be a combination of both actually... bulk and defenses.

Battlestars appeared to be the good version of Star Destroyers after all, which pretty much rely on the same things to succeed (Turbo lasers, shields, mass, some fighters).

[Senmut]

Indeed. In fact, I consider the overall design of the Batlestar to be superior to the ISD.

[gmd3d]

Indeed. In fact, I consider the overall design of the Batlestar to be superior to the ISD.

I agree with that view........ for a number of reasons, The only area of real superiority is possibly the range of a ISD over a Battlestar.

I believe the deference of a battlestar to also carry shields of some description, but nothing like those on Star Trek, more deflection of energy from long range attacks....

Raiders have to get in close to do any real damage or ramming a Battlestar is called for to be effective..... overwhelming odd as in Saga is need to win the day...

we have chatted in other threads about the possible crews of a battlestar just to run it and I bring this point up again due to Punisher454 comment about the mass of a battlestar and that inner space,,,,, there is lots of it.

its longer than a ISD by around 300ft more or less but not as tall and wide as a ISD.

The crew of a ISD is 37,000. this includes the troops... alas the number mentioned in the series is 6000 for the survivors of the fleet in Gun on Ice planet zero by Captain Apollo.

I always cringe when I hear it....

So my view is that he was talking about the Galactica crew,,, the operations crew that is... as that is where he works and lives.

a lot of space is taken up by the massive energizers, engines, engineering shops.

[Punisher454]

Another thing to consider is colonial spacecraft technology and how well does it scale up and down.
For example, here on earth we have some types of tech that increase efficiency when they are scaled down, other types of tech that get better as scale gets larger. This could also be a factor in explaining why build such a massive vessel.

[Norsehound]

It seemed to me while Battlestars had greater fighter capacity (with superior fighters), they didn't have any large-scale armaments visible from afar (like the turbolaser batteries on the flanks of an ISD). Though what about the Pegasus missiles? This kind of thinking is going into fan-war territory but hey, for the purposes of comparisons.

Without her fighters I think raiders have an advantage over a Battlestar if most of her armaments are configured for anti-ship attacks. Five Battlestars and a handful of fighters couldn't fight off several (three?) base-ship's worth of raiders at Cimtar, which has to suggest something. My guess is that the colonials shifted back to a heavy gun mentality after moving into space, as much of our modern earth-bound fighting force relies on fighters.

An interesting thought is why the colonials don't have fighter-based missiles if they have the Pegasus ones. Maybe a case of borrowed technology from another civilization they never developed and fully understood? (VFX is the obvious answer, but it's still something we fans can ponder).

[gmd3d]

It seemed to me while Battlestars had greater fighter capacity (with superior fighters), they didn't have any large-scale armaments visible from afar (like the turbolaser batteries on the flanks of an ISD). Though what about the Pegasus missiles? This kind of thinking is going into fan-war territory but hey, for the purposes of comparisons.

Without her fighters I think raiders have an advantage over a Battlestar if most of her armaments are configured for anti-ship attacks. Five Battlestars and a handful of fighters couldn't fight off several (three?) base-ship's worth of raiders at Cimtar, which has to suggest something. My guess is that the colonials shifted back to a heavy gun mentality after moving into space, as much of our modern earth-bound fighting force relies on fighters.

An interesting thought is why the colonials don't have fighter-based missiles if they have the Pegasus ones. Maybe a case of borrowed technology from another civilization they never developed and fully understood? (VFX is the obvious answer, but it's still something we fans can ponder).

Yes its a fruitless excise comparing the universe, while the turbo lasers are quite large on the Battlestars ..... here is an interesting image...
http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4949&d=1298806997

[Norsehound]

My point is from afar you can't see where the batteries are. I didn't know the two cannons in the stock shots were on the flight pods until I saw a post with a close-up of the launch tubes and where they were.

Since it makes sense that a larger cannon fires a larger bolt and is more powerful, if weapons are large enough to be seen from afar it suggests they're more powerful. If you look at a battlestar there's no obvious guns. Many of the weapons on an ISD are also not obvious, except for the four sideline turrets.

Even so, thanks for that image. Always nice to see uncommon stuff. Though I wonder if that crewman image would mean another debate on battlestar scaling...

[gmd3d]

My point is from afar you can't see where the batteries are. I didn't know the two cannons in the stock shots were on the flight pods until I saw a post with a close-up of the launch tubes and where they were.

Since it makes sense that a larger cannon fires a larger bolt and is more powerful, if weapons are large enough to be seen from afar it suggests they're more powerful. If you look at a battlestar there's no obvious guns. Many of the weapons on an ISD are also not obvious, except for the four sideline turrets.

Even so, thanks for that image. Always nice to see uncommon stuff. Though I wonder if that crewman image would mean another debate on battlestar scaling...

No problem.....

I understand the point your making... I don´t agree totally with it

While I am not expert in this area......... the larger cannon makes sense if it was shooting a projectile to cover a large range...

But would a larger cannon make a difference when using a laser beam. (how ever that would be done by some advanced race)

??

I have given this a little thought recently,

If I was designing a weapon for the Battlestars or any space craft expected to going into battle, I would do my best to shield them behind armor as much as possible.

Rather than having them too exposed and open to easy attack as we see in the show...

some thoughts ?

[Norsehound]

Call it cinimatic logic if you will. I don't want to get so involved in the comparison as to judge if bolt firepower is the same between the two. In my mind, a bigger weapon means bigger destructive capability.

With energy shields you don't need to rely on armored shutters so much. You also have the drawback of the steps and maintenance needed to keep those shutters working and operational. With guns out on the hull with no protection sure they might be easier to hit, but they'd be faster to bring into battle.

[HDE]

Let's try another way to calculate the number of battlestars. Instead of figuring out the number of battlestars we might try to compare the number of vipers with the number of airctaft or carrier based aircraft in times of war in our history. Comparing the strength of German Luftwaffe approx. 3700 (transport aircraft excluded) at the start of WW2 with German population at that time 90M, we can see, that there was one combat plane for each 25,000 citizens. If colonies only had 10 billion people, that would translate into 400,000 vipers (larger spaceships could be analogized with sea ships). Comparation with the US fleet of fleet carriers in the years 1945 to 1947 (25 to 27) with the US population that time, gives around 200,000 vipers based on Battlestarts (if battlestar is the analogy for fleet carrier and colonies population is again 10G). Such number of vipers need enormously large fleet of battlestars, so the number needs to be lower than my calculation. But still, colonials were at war, and they needed to field a lot of air power (it's space and infantry is of limited use without support). That makes me believe that low number of battlestars is quite unlikely.