Did We Ask For Too Much ?

[kingfish]

Many believe that the fans wanted the moon. IMHO we didn't. We compromised time and time again. We all wanted a continuation with the characters and actors that made the show special. When we didn't get that we went for a prequel and made a compromise. Then the ax fell and it was back to the reimagined remake. The true fanbase acted with dignity even when faced with overwhelming odds.

[TwoBrainedCylon]

I don't think the fans asked for too much. We wanted the show preserved and not trashed. We compromised on so many levels with those who responded by informing us how irrelevant and intolerant we were for not embracing something that utterly destroyed the basis of why we are fans. If we asked too much then so did the fanbase of every show in history, including the Trek series that is so dear to those who are slamming us for the exhibiting the same traits.

Two-Brain

[jewels]

But there was turf and vengence involved: and nothing will succeed when those are larger concerns than the quality of the product and the product's ability to perpetuate itself (become a powerhouse franchise).

Universal loses if they continue on this reimaging path. When it would still be fairly simple to redo the reimage into a prequel and leave themselves room for more possibilities.

No we didn't ask them for too much: We weren't the only ones that believed and still believe. We told them what was possible, almost had it made, and they chose their own path.

I think we wanted to give Universal the moon, the stars, and a few complete galaxies for franchise development. The question still is: will they understand that in time to derail this debacle and pull together the right team for the task.

nguns, KTF
Jewels

[Hito]

There WAS[B/] a guy who was [B]GOING to DO a CONTINUATION that was going to PRESERVE and NOT TRASH the original series. *BUT* for some reason FANS CHOSE NOT TO SUPPORT HIM. Instead seazing on things that were INCONCEQUENTIAL in the grands scheme of the series.

I mean
So What is there was a little secrecy?
I'd want to Keep some secrets too.
What fun is it to give everything away up front and leave nothing for the narative.

So What if you had to wait a few episodes to see Apollo.
Whats wrong with a little anticipation?

So What if he was going with CGI instead of traditional physical miniatures. It is cheeper and more could have been spent in other aspects of the production.

So What if he wanted to recast some parts, it was necesary in some cases and wouldnt have even been for the entire run of the series.
It was also again to expand the narative.

So What if he wanted to take a few creative liberties, it is all a part of bringing a little of ones self into there work.

These are all the reasons I was 100% in support of the last guy at the Galactica helm.

See...
A lot of times fans of galactica defend some of it's narritive shortcomings by saying that Givven a chance (in the form of more seasons on the air) it would all have been explained.
But that same mindset was not in effect while Singer & DeSanto were at the controlls.
If it had been, and fandom had supported him as vigorously as it is now lashing out then i am almost positive that the plug would not have been pulled.
And even if it had there wouldnt have been an exodus fans disgusted by the all the infighting.
And there still might have been a chance to turn the current situation around.

[AlternityOrange]

A little secrecy is fine. Nobody was asking his entire script be posted on line or that he personally e-mail everyone answers to their questions. But we needed a little, just a little. I know he was under gag orders but he could have given us something. He said he would give us a little bit of info at Dragoncon 2001, he didn't. He said he would answer some questions that were submitted to battlestargalactica.com, he didn't. The general fanbase knew absolutely nothing about his production. It wasn't even confirmed that it was a continuation until just prior to the production being pulled. Would you support a political candidate for example, go out and campaign for him, if you had absolutley no idea where he stood on any issues? The fanbase is not responsible for Desanto's downfall.

[Dawg]

I don't think it was fan support or non-support that scuttled DeSanto's BSG project; didn't he have some prior committment that came due or something (I'm going to have to look, and I don't have time right now)?

Ultimately it was the studio's choice to either keep the project going or not - they chose another path. I would hope that fan input was considered, but fan input is only one part of the equation.

I also think that, as regrettable as DeSanto's departure was, it's water under the bridge (unless there is a move to have him work on the present project???) and there is no use dwelling on it. Think of it as a learning experience.

Personally, like many here I find the draft script lacking - see my rant thread from yesterday for that issue.

To return to the point of this thread, though...

Don't blame Trek fans, Two-Brain. I'm a Trek fan (TNG saved my life, I think) - I'll even confess to liking what RDM did on TNG. The fans to be reviled (politely, of course) are the RDM fans who do not mind gutting what made BSG what it is in order to further his career.

Unless there are changes we don't know about going on, it would appear TPTB fall into that category, as well. We tried, we argued, we compromised, and we tried to do it all politely. TPTB made their choices, and, hopefully, are making additional choices that will bring the end result more into line with what is Galactica. If they do, everybody wins. If they don't, they lose. We don't lose anything except an opportunity to see Galactica reborn.

IMHO, of course. ;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Hito]

Originally posted by Dawg
I don't think it was fan support or non-support that scuttled DeSanto's BSG project; didn't he have some prior committment that came due or something (I'm going to have to look, and I don't have time right now)?

Ultimately it was the studio's choice to either keep the project going or not - they chose another path. I would hope that fan input was considered, but fan input is only one part of the equation.



I understand that.
I just think had there not been the division the plug would have been tougher to yank.
As the production would have proceded then the normal info leaks from the set would have quenched peoples thirst for info long enough to get some footage shot and some official info prepared.

Originally posted by Dawg

I also think that, as regrettable as DeSanto's departure was, it's water under the bridge (unless there is a move to have him work on the present project???) and there is no use dwelling on it. Think of it as a learning experience.


That is my mindset as well.
Except that people didnt learn.
When a movement was initiated to have Moore's project made into a prequel there was a vocal segment of fandom who reacted with paranoia.
Continuation or nothing was there position and again fandom was split.
Even tho a prequal or side story could have concivably paved the way for some manner of continuaiton, the inflexibility of some fans showed TPTB that there was little point in trying to appeal to them.

Originally posted by Dawg

Personally, like many here I find the draft script lacking - see my rant thread from yesterday for that issue.


Contrary to popular belief i do not thing it is Perfect
I do think it is above average compared to the sci fi on tv these days.
I'd have prefered a remake more in line with the tone of the original, but since i realize that is not a popular alternative to either side...

[TwoBrainedCylon]

Hito,

What's up with this? Some fans didn't support DeSanto. I frankly didn't know much about what he wanted to do but more to the point, lately you and quite a few Neos seems quick to blame the fans for what's happenned, as if all of this is really something we've inflicted on ourselves.

Were you shouting that we should blame ourselves when the towers were hit? How about the USS Cole? I'm getting pretty damn tired of hearing Moore supporters rant on about how Ron Moore is our fault because some didn't support DeSanto. That might work in one of Bonnie Hammer's meetings but I'm very surprised to find it here.

I'm tired of the fans being blamed for the BS the studio is pulling. I'm surprised to hear you promoting these ideas.

Two-Brain

[Titon]

The problem with this whole thing people is very simple. NO one, i repeat NO one has solidified where Galactica stands. Makes for a very shakey production before it even gets' started. You have producers, fans, actors, artist's saying all different things with no continuity.

[dah66]

I don't think that fan support had much to do with DeSanto's production being taken away. Fox pulled out and went with Firefly. This was a business move based on the fact that Joss Whedon had a proven track record as a television creator/ writer/producer. DeSanto had no such track record for television. Also, Firefly came with a cheaper price tag. So, Fox made a logical choice and left DeSanto with a very pricey production that had no major network support. This allowed the SCI FI channel the opportunity to explore other options (which I'm sure was motivated by personal agendas as well as fiscal considerations).

Ron Moore gave his pitch, and the SCI FI channel also went with the cheapest option. I'm sure Moore's take on Galactica is significantly cheaper than what DeSanto had planned. Let's face it, Ron has the mechanical Cylon's as predominately background characters and there are no alien races. So, the costume and make up budgets are going to be way lower than what DeSanto would have wanted.

Did we ask for too much? I don't think so. I think DeSanto wanted to give us too much.

[Dawg]

Two-Brain, don't link 9/11 and the USS Cole to a trivial argument like this one. It is offensive to many and disrespectful to those who died. There is no parallel on any level. This is a debate over the direction an effing TV show should take.

Hito has a valid point about fan reaction; he just hasn't thought it all the way through yet. He's bright and articulate - he'll get it. At this moment, his words suggest the fans have a disproportionate influence on studio decisions, etc. I'm not at all sure that's what he means - but remember the influence fans had at the end of Star Trek's original run. His point is well taken about how an organized, focused fanbase can make a difference.

OK, I'm not mad anymore. :)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Hito]

Originally posted by TwoBrainedCylon
Hito,

What's up with this? Some fans didn't support DeSanto. I frankly didn't know much about what he wanted to do but

more to the point, lately you and quite a few Neos seems quick to blame the fans for what's happenned, as if all of

this is really something we've inflicted on ourselves.



I'm getting pretty damn tired of hearing Moore supporters rant on about how Ron Moore is our fault because some

didn't support DeSanto. That might work in one of Bonnie Hammer's meetings but I'm very surprised to find it here.

I'm tired of the fans being blamed for the BS the studio is pulling. I'm surprised to hear you promoting these

ideas.
Two-Brain

I dont exactly see how my position makes me a supporter of Moore in particular since I've also tried time and again

to make clear that I'd have given any producer with equal or better credentials the same chance.
Moreso the closer they remained to the source material.

For instance If Moore had wanted to take GALACTICA in a direction similar to say Star Trek or Andromeda then I'd

have been as vocal as the rest of the fans against him because that is not what Galactica is about.

You would not find this suprising if you had been around a bit longer 2Brain.
A search through my postings about this will show that my position has remained farily consistant.
Since long before DeSanto or Moore were even an issue, and even before I Joined up here, I've believed that

Galactica should be remade from the begining, a position could have been a "happy medium" that would give everyone

what they wanted.
The story, themes and feel of The original Galactica all intact and with a new sexy cast for the networks to sell

to the public with EVEN some of the original actors recast as diffrent characters.

Same story, hardware, themes characters just with new updated production methods & new actors.
I've never strayed far from that belief and to this day it would be my prefrence.
I've been honest enough to admit that i dont think Moores story is perfect and would prolly have been better suited

as an even more esoteric reinterpritation of BSG like Animation.

However since that is not a realistic option and since there is every indication so far that a majority of the

themes of the original *Do remain intact*, I've chosen to keep an open mind.

I am pretty sure that I am the only person to "rant" on about the whole thing becasue of my frustration around the

whole thing.
And it is not even really focused on BSG fandom but genera fandom in general who are not quik to accept any kind of

creative shaking up.


Originally posted by Warrior
Hito, to put it in simple terms for you and other Moore supporters regarding DeSantos:

Bonnie Hammer had in mind for BSG what Moore is doing BEFORE DeSantos even came onboard.

THAT is what did in DeSantos project.

Hammer is *not* the one that brought DeSantos in. She didn't want DeSantos and a continuation in the first place.

Also recall that DeSantos was searching for a network to air BSG. Hammer/Moore's project is straight up for the

SciFi channel and always has been.

So before going around saying there was this split and that split in the fan base regarding DeSantos failed

efforts, try getting the real story behind why his version isn't happening. It has nothing to do with the fans.



Since I am not privy to all the inside goodies, the only conclusions i can draw are from what I read here.
What I remember is that FOX was supposed to carry Galactica as a continuaiton Helmed by Desanto.
But then they decided to go with firefly instead.

Sometime before fox decided to go with FireFly instead was when i rememebr the all the desent.
The nes which struck me the most were the ones about CGI Vs traditional models.

After the plug being pulled outright was when I remember Sci-Fi becoming part of the story and proposing all the way off base ideas for a Galactica comeback.

Sometime in between both is when i recall the Larson / Moyer walking viper drama.
Which i also recall keeping an open mind about since i didnt think Wing Commander was *that* bad...

[TwoBrainedCylon]

Dawg,

I'll concede that. I don't need the towers of Cole to make the arguement and if they're better left out I'm happy to leave them out.

The premise still stands. There's been a lot of blaming the fans for deserving what Hammer, Moore, etc. are doing to BSG. If we controlled the copyright and kicked DeSanto out and then had to hire Moore and let him do what he wanted then indeed we might be guilty.

My point is that I'm tired of hearing this crap about how the fans deserve it. There's been a Hell of a lot of blaming the victim going around here and I've about had enough.

I didn't intend to use any inflamatory references though. If they were inappropriate, I apologize for that.


Two-Brain

[Dawg]

Two-Brain, I don't see that Hito is blaming anybody, saying we deserve what we get. I read him as saying that fan reaction has been consistently negative regardless of who helmed the project.

I also read him to say that he is not a big RDM fan, but is giving this remake a chance, coming from the perspective that this may be the one shot to revive BSG. I understand the philosophy. But, for myself, I would rather not see a bastardization (can I say that?) with the BSG name on it that in no way resembles the real BSG.

Hito thinks there are positive points to the script. So do I. The problem is that, taken as a whole, I don't think it's very good (say, typical of today's sf trash), and I don't think it's Galactica. Therefore, I am opposed to it.

Because this is what I see (even in his more emotional posts), I am not going to accuse him of being a Moore worshiper, or as "one of the enemy." We have a difference of opinion in philosophy about the remake, that's all.

Thank you, by the way. I was fortunate that I didn't have anybody involved in either terrorist act, and no close relative is now in Iraq - I count myself quite lucky. But, I still was affected by those acts, and to equate something that horrific with this debate just set me off.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Erzengel]

Ok, so it's established that there is not one voice in the fanbase but multiples of with differeing ideals on how to proceed.

If that is the case. I think it's high time that the fanbase work out what it wants BEFORE we continue to make a demand of universal of what we want.

Maybe then with one voice we can tell the studio want we want and maybe be listened to.

[Dawg]

Erzengel, you just hit it on the head.:thumbsup:

Now, who wants to coordinate THAT discussion?

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[TwoBrainedCylon]

Dawg,

It sure sounds like Hito was blaming fans to me but maybe I'm just basing that on his other posts. -- suffice to say, anyone blaming the fans for RDM, Hammer, and Eick are pointing their finger in the wrong direction as far as I'm concerned.

Two-Brain

[Dawg]

My friend, we are in total agreement there.

I would be interested, though, in hearing from Hito to make sure I am understanding his position correctly.

I really think Erzengel has said something profound. We need to decide how we feel as a group, and then take it to TPTB as a unified voice.

We should include possible actions we can take in that discussion, too.

Perhaps I'm thinking too grandly, but it's worked before...

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Hito]

I gave my take Just before 2 brain a few posts ago.
7th April 2003 12:55 PM

[Erzengel]

I say start a thread and have everyone post what they want, or someone read all the past positions and give a general summary of the common viewpoints, and go from there.

See where the common ground lies amoungst the fans and see which positions are the best for the franchise. Then list those viewpoints and post those views on other bboards and see if we can get a general concensus throughout the internet.

Once that is accomplished ask Mr. Faries and others to lead the charge to get a production that the fans want.

Thoughts anyone?

[guittarjedi]

This is a great idea. First off, Starbuck absolutely without a doubt HAS to be a MALE character. Second all ship designs and costumes should not be significantly altered. Third, there should be no major contradictions in continuity. Fourth most living principal cast members should reprise their roles. Fifth, there IS sound in space.

[Erzengel]

I forgot to add that I think a letter writing campaign should be considered since it looks like viacom maybe in charge of the sci-fi channel pretty soon.

Of course the one voice thing should be worked out first so that the fans can write with one voice to the new owers of sci-fi channel.

Any thoughts?