The Ancient Astronaut aspects of BSG

[jjrakman]

I thought it might be fun to discuss some of these themes and how it relates to BSG. Ther are a few Sci Fi shows that have dealt with the subject. To my mind I can think of obviously BSG, but also, Stargate, The Pheonix, and Otherworld.

There are also several books that have been written by researchers into this field regading the idea that humanity's dim dim past started with visitors from the stars, or a prior high tech civilization that was wiped out by a catastrophe thus forcing mankind to re-invent the wheel. It is believed that this is where many of the legends concering Atlantis and Lemuria arose. Some of the authors who have dealt with this subject would include, Richard C. Hoagland, Graham Hancock, Zecharia Sitchin, Robert Schoch, Erich Von Daniken, and John Anthony West.

There have even been recent geologial findings that suggest the Sphinx of the Giza plateau is at least 10,000 years old, 4000 years older that the known beginnings of human civilzation according to orthodox science.

So what say you, were the Egyptian monuments and other megolithic structures around the world created by workers or slaves, or by someone else...

.

[Micheleh]

Interesting theory. I'm working on a story with a similar premise- of an ancient advanced civilization on earth, capable of spaceflight, catastrophically wiped out to leave only enigmatic traces of inexplicable technology.

"There have even been recent geologial findings that suggest the Sphinx of the Giza plateau is at least 10,000 years old, 4000 years older that the known beginnings of human civilzation according to orthodox science."

I believe that this is good proof toward the theory that civilization goes back far longer than people think.

[jjrakman]

I would highly suggest you read some of the authors I listed above. It could provide you with great research. I know how what I am about to say is going to sound, very tabloidish, but the face on Mars is very peculiar. It has an Egyptian style head dress, is surrounded by pyramids in the immediate vicinity, and if you split the face directly in have and fold the right half and left half over, one half looks like a hominid, the other is feline...like a sphinx. try some of the following links if your interested:

www.enterprisemission.com

www.grahamhancock.com

www.coasttocoast.com

And good luck with your writing!

[jjrakman]

regarding a catastrophe. The best theory to date is that there was a planet somewhere in between Jupiter and present day Mars that experienced a catastrophe on the scale of planets colliding. This created the asteroid belt that exists there. Mars wsa supposedly a moon of this destroyed planet. This is curious because if you look at Mars it is seperated by The Line of Dichotomy. One half of Mars is sooth, the other half is literally blanketed with craters, as though it were pelted by massive amounts of debris.

[Stevew]

There are signs of an advanced civilation that existed some 12K years ago and they are all over the world, I can't wait til they find out more
S:D

[peter noble]

Graham Hancock is regarded as a crank in my country.

Peter

[jjrakman]

who deal with this subject are considered "cranks" by their peers. But don't forget Schlieman(sp?) was too, until he found Troy. I've read the Sign and the Seal, Finger prints of the Gods, The message of the Sphinx and Heaven's Mirror. I don't know if I believe everything he writes, but he does raise some interesting questions. I think there are those in the orthodox community who just simply do not want to hear "dissenting" ideas.

[Hito]

I'm farmiliar with Richard C. Hoagland, Graham Hancock and Zecharia Sitchin.
I enjoy Graham's presentation the best however.

If DeSanto had gotten further it would have been great if he could have brought Hancock or Hoagland on as consultants.
It would have made for some astounding stories I bet.

The Ancient Astronaut element was one of my favorite elements of TOS.
You can see where Stargate borrowed heavily from galactica to establish itself in that same kind of mythology.

[Hito]

I am not convinced that slave labor was involved in the construction of the pyramids.

[oldwardaggit]

(Cue Stu Phillips music. The same music that was at the start of the original)
(Camera shot coming down threw the sky until we see the back of a boy and his grandfather standing in front of the great pyramid so that we don’t get to see their faces)

(Boy) Grandpa Where did people come from?

The Grandfather thinks for a minute and decides to give his Grandson a broad answer because he wants his Grandchild to make his own decisions with out the interference of his own beliefs.

(Grandfather) Well, there are many different views on this subject.
Some believe that God made man in his own image right here on earth.
Others believe that we are the end result of evolution.

And there are those who believe that life here began out there. Far across the universe with tribes of humans who may have been the four fathers of the Egyptians, or the Toltec’s, or the Mians. That they may have been the architects of the great pyramids or the lost civilization of the Miriam or Atlantis. Some believe that there may yet be brothers of man who even now fight to survive far , far away amongst the stars.

(The voice sounds familiar and as the camera circles the Grandfather, We see the devilish smile of Patrick Mcnee. Then the screen goes black and we here him laugh with a bit of an echo on his voice.)

(Then we have Stu Phillips starting music for the credits as the black screen fades in with stars to let us know that we are traveling to that far away place.)

(Credits end with a fade in to a shot of a huge hall and it soon becomes apparent that we are at a grand funeral for some one. Looking at the front of the room, we see Tigh decked out in full uniform. We see a bit of a tear in his eye as he begins to speak.)

(Tigh) Adama My friend, my dear, dear friend. You were there for me through out my life and now for one last time, I’m here for you.

(As Tigh continues, we see the back of someone with dark hair; leave the room in a bit of a hurry. When the funeral is over, we see some people in the corridor talking down about what will happen to the fleet now that Adama has passed and they are also talking down about how Apollo didn’t even have the stomach to stay for the whole funeral .How no one can find him on the Galactica. Then they look up to see some smoke roll from around the corner. At first we see the end of the fumarello, then the smile of Dirk Benedict.)

(Shuttle Pilot) Captain Starbuck, we didn’t see you there.
(Starbuck) Looks like you boys just stepped in to some deep felgercarb.
and Ah.... yes, don’t worry about Apollo. I know exactly where he is.

(Camera shot zooming in to the Galactica and as we get closer, we zoom in on the celestial tube on top of the Galactica. We then see someone sitting in there and as the camera zooms in on Richard Hatch sitting in a bit of a dark shadow, we here him say.


(Apollo) Father, why is it that I should feel the closest to your spirit, here?

OWD

[kingfish]

Well written. :thumbsup:

[TwoBrainedCylon]

I think much of the original relied on the Ancient Astronaut theories, and I thought it was a good addition.

Schleiman (can't remember how his name is really spelled) wasn't the genius he's portrayed now. Practically everything he determined was later corrected by real archeologists. The bulk of his evidence was faked and planted at the site by himself, his wife, and two assistants. He did find a pre-Greek stronghold with gold relics that is commonly called Troy but that title has never been confirmed by any evidence found there. It is, however, great for tourism -- and not a bad place to visit if you get the chance to go there.

The ancient astronaut books usually play like the Ron Moore handbook. First you attack the established basis and portray them as incompetent and irrelevant. Then you insist that your interpretation is correct and anyone who doesn't buy into it is intolerant, ill-informed, unable to see the truth, etc. Then you supply some evidence and interpret the meaning for everyone and present it as FACT, even though the interpretations fail miserably under basic scrutiny or any application of the scientific method.

The difference for me is that the ancient astronauts books are a lot of fun and very enjoyable to listen to. I like having them around.


Two-Brain

[jewels]

OWD, that was excellent! I like the start of your story. And that's where I'd have looked for Apollo too. :)

[The Blue Mule]

Nice OWD!!

Jesus Christ that was NICE!

Pure Majesty!


Rich.

P.S. Please continue.

[oldwardaggit]

Kingfish. Thanks, I’m not a writer unless you count music but I figured I would take a stab at it.

Jewels. Ya I was thinking about what kind of mystery this opening scene would stir up.
Thanks for the Pat on the back.

The blue mule. This thread gave me the Idea to write that. Maybe I will write some more. It may be interesting to see how we could introduce the rest of the cast.
Thank you too.

OWD

[peter noble]

OWD strikes again!

Definitely not a one trick pony! :)

Peter

[BST]

OWD,

(I tried to write more, but the 3 words below sum it all up):

That was beautiful.


BST

[oldwardaggit]

Darrell, feel free to use it. I would love to see that done and with your talent, it would be down right awesome.

Peter, Soon I will have more time for more tricks. :)

BST, thanks. The fans should write the script for the sci fi channel.
There are some really good writers here that would do it justice.
I’m just an Idea guy but I would love to see the writers here, write the script because they are huge fans of the original and we could rely on them to do it more then justice.

OWD

[jjrakman]

I have to agree with you there is that aspect among the Ancient Astonaut supporters, but also on the side of orthodox there is an unwillingness to listen that creates a kind of friction between camps, when they should probably be working together to see if there really is anything to it all.

The Best example I can think of is the reception of Robert Schoch's redating of the Great Sphinx. He is a an expert in the erosion of Soft Stones such as the material which the Sphinx is made of. He comes from the University of Boston and is quite respected in his field as a geologist. He simply stated that the erosion patterns seem to indicate that the Sphinx is much older than presently thought by orthodoxy. He was not trying to say that it was built by Atlanteans, r men from Mars, yet he was met with a pretty beligerent reaction from theorthodox community. I think that's kind of a shame.

But in any case they are definietly enjoyable to read, At the most for trying to expand your mind to outlandish possibilities, and at the least for a good story.

[jjrakman]

I wholeheartedly agree they would have made excellent consultants. The whole lore of BSG is steeped in this stuff. It would have been a marriage made in heaven.

[jjrakman]

Couldn't have done it better myself!

[oldwardaggit]

I thank you. I'm not very good at it but I guess I may have lucked out this time. :)

[ojai22]

JJ,

There's a thread you might enjoy under BSG Publication Reviews. It's The Atlantean Connection. And I'm not finished with it yet.

[jjrakman]

By the way, your Avatar. Summerian?

Also,I find it curious that Mr.Larson, if he is a devout Mormon, would entertain thoughts of Ancient Astronauts. Any thoughts on this?

[TwoBrainedCylon]

See my post in the Moses/Exodus thread.

Two-Brain

[jjrakman]

What do you all think of these images?

http://www.enterprisemission.com/ir_images.html

Here'swhat they think we are seeing:

http://www.enterprisemission.com/ir_analysis.html

[jjrakman]

n/t

[jjrakman]

bump!

[Senmut]

There is alot of good work on the "Ancient Astronaut" theory that does not involve Erich von Doughnut. let us not allow him to pollute the idea. The real problem is that mainstream scientist cannot allow the intrusion of ideas from "outsiders". Much of the evidence comes from people with no "scientific credentials", and therefore deemed worthless, as if having a degree implies truth. In college, any mention that such ideas might have a basis was met with virulent opposition. Almost in an atmosphere of fear.
One last point...remember in 2001? The monolith that appears, and helps the apes evolve? Extreterrestrial intervention if ever I saw it, yet BSG is derided for the very same idea. Maybe it's because Larson doesn't have a degree?
Sorry. Just had to vent.

[Corwwyn]

Positive Proof (http://home.earthlink.net/~bartonmg/mars.html) that the universal symbol for good humor exists outside our civilization, off our rock, 'cross time & space (a mere three hour tour), available at a probe archive near you.

Viking Original Image
http://home.earthlink.net/~bartonmg/images/smiley.gif

After Selective Enhancements
http://home.earthlink.net/~bartonmg/images/smileyen.gif

;)

[jjrakman]

LOL! Yeah U;ve seen that. Take it your not a big fab=n of the Ancient astonaut theory,eh Corwyn?

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

Not to knock anything which uses the theories for the basis of entertainment, but the AA theory is utter and complete nonsense.

That said, Zechariah Sitchin's theories would make a better movie than Von Danken's.

[jjrakman]

I'll certainly conced that the AA theories leave something to be desired scientifically, but why "utter and complete nonsense"? Just curious? Is it the theories themselves specifically, or just the whole general idea?

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

I just used that extreme to illustrate that though I don't believe in those theories, they still make good stories.

Really, it's several theories (to me):

1. Visitation in ancient times influenced our ancestors.
2. Aliens created man
3. Man came form space

1 is certainly possible. But we do know how the pyramids were built.
2 is worth thinking about, provided the theoretical circumstances work.
3 is just plain wacky.

[jjrakman]

I agree with you it is certainly wacky. I guess I'm more of a fence sitter.

I think AA's are possible because I think of human's possible future voyage to the stars. will we one day encounter a primitive yet intelligent species who might worship us as gods? I think that's possible. So why could it not have happened in our dim past? I've heard stories about when McArthur landed in some of the South Pacific islands that the primitives there made carvings of the aircraft and worshiped them as sky gods.

AS far as we know how the Pyramids were built. I'd say we don't necessarily know, but have a pretty darned goo idea. The only way to really know is to build a time machine and watch them being built.

But, while I think these "researchers" come up with some really good questions and strange findings that don't necessarily make sense in the orthodox scheme of things, there is yet to be one really good solid AA to be put forth.

Until then, yeah, they make great background stories don't they?

[Corwwyn]

Originally posted by jjrakman
LOL! Yeah U;ve seen that. Take it your not a big fab=n of the Ancient astonaut theory,eh Corwyn?

Correct. I don't buy it for a second.

However, it makes for fascinating SF speculation imo, and is suggested as a question in BSG, not stated as a fact, and thus adds hugely to the ambience, the feel, of BSG.

Such mysteries and hinted possibilities are something I miss deeply in much current "contemporary" SF today.

[jjrakman]

Corwyn,

Can I ask why you don't buy it for a second? I'm honestly curious because as I said, I'm a fence sitter on this subject. I'd really like to know your reasons.

Regardless, I totally agree with you that it makes for great science fiction speculation. I don't think anyone can deny that.

[Stevew]

I am and have always been open on this. There are so many misterys and so much we don't know I won't rule out anything.
There is a mounting body of evidence around the world pointing to an advanced civilization some 12K years ago. Only human arrogance would dissmiss it and there are too many young, baby, and infant souls on the planet at this time as well.
IMHO
S:D

[Senmut]

I am always amused by the attitudes of "orthodox scientists' on this topic. on the one hand, they will with utter confidence tell us they know how the Pyramids or Stonehenge or whatever was built, despite the paucity of evidence, certainly in written form, or they will tell us the history of this or that Pharaoh thanks to written records. BUT, if an ancient text tells us plainly that flaming boxes or whatever came down from the sky with weird creatures in them, then, of course, the ancients were full of it. Selective blindness!

[Raymar3d]

Originally posted by
I thought it might be fun to discuss some of these themes and how it relates to BSG. Ther are a few Sci Fi shows that have dealt with the subject. To my mind I can think of obviously BSG, but also, Stargate, The Pheonix, and Otherworld.

There are also several books that have been written by researchers into this field regading the idea that humanity's dim dim past started with visitors from the stars, or a prior high tech civilization that was wiped out by a catastrophe thus forcing mankind to re-invent the wheel. It is believed that this is where many of the legends concering Atlantis and Lemuria arose. Some of the authors who have dealt with this subject would include, Richard C. Hoagland, Graham Hancock, Zecharia Sitchin, Robert Schoch, Erich Von Daniken, and John Anthony West.

There have even been recent geologial findings that suggest the Sphinx of the Giza plateau is at least 10,000 years old, 4000 years older that the known beginnings of human civilzation according to orthodox science.

So what say you, were the Egyptian monuments and other megolithic structures around the world created by workers or slaves, or by someone else...

.

Don't forget Robert E. Howard's Conan and Kull, and H. P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos.

Ken

[Corwwyn]

Originally posted by jjrakman
Corwyn,

Can I ask why you don't buy it for a second? I'm honestly curious because as I said, I'm a fence sitter on this subject. I'd really like to know your reasons.


Of course you can. :)

I haven't seen any evidence.

Every unusual or mysterious thing that has been found which hasn't been fraudulent has at best proven only that it is unusual or mysterious so far, nothing more.

[jjrakman]

I'd figure I'd bump this one too, great discussions here as well.

[Winemaster]

The ancient astronaut, Egyptian-Mayan Atlantis-Kobolian connections have been what it's about for me in regards to BG
I have a link here that ties in ancient mysteries and the Bible. I don't subscribe to them as being "Gospel" but they make for interesting listening.

http://www.drgenescott.com/thearchives.htm

Click the left menu on subject and then click mysteries

[jjrakman]

.The ancient astronaut, Egyptian-Mayan Atlantis-Kobolian connections have been what it's about for me in regards to BG


For me that was always at the very heart of BSG as well.

[jjrakman]

*BUMP*

[TwoBrainedCylon]

Winemaster,

Cool site!!!

Two-Brain

[AlphaAce]

Maybe Glen Larson received a vision and was inspired to write BSG? There are those who believe that life here, began out there...

Seriously though, it is very possible that ancient civilizations were more advanced than we give them credit for. We have verifiable examples of civilizations going through dark ages where a lot of knowledge was lost. Just look back to the fall of the Roman Empire. It took many years for Europe to regain the sophistication it had before the empire fell. It is entirely possible that an advanced civilization existed and disappeared before the recorded data that we currently have.

[jjrakman]

I thought it might be time to bump this thread up again for the new folks!

[Proximo]

Originally posted by jjrakman
I I've heard stories about when McArthur landed in some of the South Pacific islands that the primitives there made carvings of the aircraft and worshiped them as sky gods.


ACtually no, it's a bit different to that. (excuse me butting in here...)

THe islanders saw the planes and the cargo they brought with them and assumed, since they were the blessed of the gods, that the planes were supposed to be bring them gifts from the gods. They also reasoned that the white man had captured these flying spirits and enslaved them, so they built their own runways and towers in the mountains, away from the white men, to try and entice the flying spirits back to freedom, so they could then partake of the cargo of gifts from their gods.

You see they werne't stupid. They knew that theplanes weren't gods, but without an understanding of what happened inside the planes, they assumed that they were sent by their gods. To them, the flight of these great metal beasts was a magical event. Just goes to show that Clarke was right. Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguisable from magic. People always assumed he was talking about aliens in the past...

[jjrakman]

Hey thanks for clarifying that. That was really interesting, and it still kind of proves the point I was trying to make, which was Clarke's statement.

[Darth Marley]

Well,thanks for the link winemaster.
I remember his show back in the old days,very high entertainment value.He would play the same video repeatedly until he got enough donations.Sometimes taking up the whole show.Thought he was long gone.
But I certainly don't want to offend a fellow student of fermentation science about religion.

JJ-are you still on the fence about Cydonia?
I am an avid disbeliever about this,but my brewing buddy swallows it hook line and sinker.

Much of this falls into the kooky category,but I am at home with that kind,as is anyone who has ever been to an LP official function.

I live in the same town as Bart Siebrel (moonmovie.com) and first heard of him by meeting him at a party.His dog is way smarter than he is.

Check out badastronomy.com for much debunking info,though they don't have much on the Cydonia as presented by enterprisemission.com though I have seen some embarassing "guilt by association" evidence aginst their claims by searching the yahoo groups.

NASA put out several photos of the "face" region from different angles. Maybe we shouldn't trust the govt. but Mars is too close to lie about for long.

Glad I found this thread,as I was going to start one asking where you all came down on the Von Daniken theories.Seems I recall an old Nova ep on PBS that destroyed the Chariots of the Gods book.

Anyone out there read The King in Yellow by Chambers?

[shiningstar]

Those are fantastic links thanks for posting them!

[jjrakman]

Well, here comes my periodic bumping of this thread.

[shiningstar]

Thanks for clarifying that Proximo! I like your insight.

[jjrakman]

This was a good conversation too.

[peter noble]

Part of Galactica's appeal for me is the core message of "There are those who believe life here, started out there" and the show's leanings into Egyptology and classical mythology is what makes it so unique.

Lost Planet of the Gods part two is the episode that really the showcase for this mission statement and it's pulled off with some great writing and production value.

I still think Graham Hancock and Von Daniken are cranks though.

[jjrakman]

For myself that's what always struck a cord in me with this show. The idea that our civilization began somewhere in the stars long ago. And that we've forgotten our dim pre-history.

von-Daniken, yeah he's probably more crank than he is historian or scientist.

Hancock, I think has been misrepresented and misunderstood publically. What Hancock presents isn't necessarily a theory so much as it is a question. Questioning certain things that simply do not seem to make sense in orthodox Egyptology, or general history for that matter.

If you put aside the "crank" view, and the orthodox view and simply look at a few basic facts, it should at least give someone pause enough to raise an eyebrow.

One such fact would be the redating of the Sphinx by Robert Schoch. As having to have been built 7-8 thousand years ago, before human civilization supposedly began. You can't really deny geological facts.

The other is the Great Pyramid. When you strip away all of the theories as to it's construction, and simply look at the logistics of it, it becomes mindboggling. The weight and precision of the thing. The number and sizes of the stones. The supposed allotment of time given to complete it's construction. These are things that can not be duplicated today.

Then you have the fact that there are pyramidal constructions all over the planet. We have one here in Wisconsin built by an off shoot of the Chahokia Indians. There's something like 400 cultures world wide that each havbe their own cataclysm myth, and the legends of the time prior when there was a Golden Age of technology. Yet how could these people arrive at the same concepts, without ever coming into contact with one another? Unless there was a common ancestral civilization from which they sprang.

There seems to be two prevelant mindsets as to human progress.

1) That the current state of technology and knowledge is the very height that can ever hope to be achieved.

2) That human progress always moves slowly forward.

We know that what came after the Roman Empire fell, wasn't exactly a leap forward. Yet we still cling to this always moving forward concept.

Von Daniken, meh.

Hancock though, does present some interesting questions.

[Jester]

(Cue Stu Phillips music. The same music that was at the start of the original)
(Camera shot coming down threw the sky until we see the back of a boy and his grandfather standing in front of the great pyramid so that we don’t get to see their faces)

(Boy) Grandpa Where did people come from?

The Grandfather thinks for a minute and decides to give his Grandson a broad answer because he wants his Grandchild to make his own decisions with out the interference of his own beliefs.

(Grandfather) Well, there are many different views on this subject.
Some believe that God made man in his own image right here on earth.
Others believe that we are the end result of evolution.

And there are those who believe that life here began out there. Far across the universe with tribes of humans who may have been the four fathers of the Egyptians, or the Toltec’s, or the Mians. That they may have been the architects of the great pyramids or the lost civilization of the Miriam or Atlantis. Some believe that there may yet be brothers of man who even now fight to survive far , far away amongst the stars.

(The voice sounds familiar and as the camera circles the Grandfather, We see the devilish smile of Patrick Mcnee. Then the screen goes black and we here him laugh with a bit of an echo on his voice.)

(Then we have Stu Phillips starting music for the credits as the black screen fades in with stars to let us know that we are traveling to that far away place.)

(Credits end with a fade in to a shot of a huge hall and it soon becomes apparent that we are at a grand funeral for some one. Looking at the front of the room, we see Tigh decked out in full uniform. We see a bit of a tear in his eye as he begins to speak.)

(Tigh) Adama My friend, my dear, dear friend. You were there for me through out my life and now for one last time, I’m here for you.

(As Tigh continues, we see the back of someone with dark hair; leave the room in a bit of a hurry. When the funeral is over, we see some people in the corridor talking down about what will happen to the fleet now that Adama has passed and they are also talking down about how Apollo didn’t even have the stomach to stay for the whole funeral .How no one can find him on the Galactica. Then they look up to see some smoke roll from around the corner. At first we see the end of the fumarello, then the smile of Dirk Benedict.)

(Shuttle Pilot) Captain Starbuck, we didn’t see you there.
(Starbuck) Looks like you boys just stepped in to some deep felgercarb.
and Ah.... yes, don’t worry about Apollo. I know exactly where he is.

(Camera shot zooming in to the Galactica and as we get closer, we zoom in on the celestial tube on top of the Galactica. We then see someone sitting in there and as the camera zooms in on Richard Hatch sitting in a bit of a dark shadow, we here him say.


(Apollo) Father, why is it that I should feel the closest to your spirit, here?

OWD

WELL WRITTEN! That was better than some of the TOS shows! :thumbsup: Would make a great start for a new BSG series based on the original - not the TRIPE the Sci-Fi channel has going now.

[Westy]

Graham Hancock is regarded as a crank in my country.

Peter

Mine too :)

[WarMachine]

I just used that extreme to illustrate that though I don't believe in those theories, they still make good stories.

Really, it's several theories (to me):

1. Visitation in ancient times influenced our ancestors.
2. Aliens created man
3. Man came form space

1 is certainly possible. But we do know how the pyramids were built.
2 is worth thinking about, provided the theoretical circumstances work.
3 is just plain wacky.

BEE,

Sorry, but I have to call you on #1 & #3.

Let me say, flat out, that I have no idea how the Great Pyramid was built -- but I can certainly tell you how it wasn't built; nobody drags c.60-ton granite slabs up an uncompacted incline, making 90° turns, to slide it into place at a reverse 45° angle...

While that's certainly not the only argument(they're really too numerous to list here), I'll give you one more:

It is estimated that there are approximately 2.5 million individual blocks of stone within the Great Pyramid; it is also estimated that it took about 30 years to build; being as I'm a very nice guy, I'll give the Egyptians an extra 10 years.

2.5 million blocks divided by 40 years equals 62,500 blocks placed, per year...or, 171.23 blocks per day or 7.13 blocks per hour, assuming a 24 hour work period. Note that this allows for no off-days for religious festivals, accidents, bad weather, etc....

Which is why your garden-variety Egyptologists react with such venom when people ask simple questions that their theories ignore.

As regards #3, if you have a truly catastrophic event occur on Earth, there may be no other refuge except space...any survivors would necessarily "come from space".... :D

[Breea]

Hi,

My great-uncle worked with NASA up til his death..he actually died there...anyway, He helped to design alot of the rockets as well as the some of the actual space crafts...

I can remember when he came to visit us and brought alot of pictures that had been taken for us to see...They were so cool..esp. the ones of Mars..it showed what looked like canals..these were all evenly spaced and had a set design to them.

He also tole me that we would never really know what had been found on Mars because NASA would never admit it not would the government let them...He said that if we were ever to find out that it would "shake" our very believe and foundation of what we thought was in reality the truth...

I really wish he would have told me more but he never would...all he would say is to believe in the stars because that's where the truth really lied...When he passed..i got all of his papers..8mm films and pictures...funny, but I never really went through them..after re-reading this thread i guess I should go back and look at them.

Breea

[jjrakman]

Bree I would be highly interested in what your great-uncle left you. If you have the chance, would you be willing to post scans of any pics and/or documents that you may find of interest?

[Damocles]

BEE,

Sorry, but I have to call you on #1 & #3.

Let me say, flat out, that I have no idea how the Great Pyramid was built -- but I can certainly tell you how it wasn't built; nobody drags c.60-ton granite slabs up an uncompacted incline, making 90° turns, to slide it into place at a reverse 45° angle...

While that's certainly not the only argument(they're really too numerous to list here), I'll give you one more:

It is estimated that there are approximately 2.5 million individual blocks of stone within the Great Pyramid; it is also estimated that it took about 30 years to build; being as I'm a very nice guy, I'll give the Egyptians an extra 10 years.

2.5 million blocks divided by 40 years equals 62,500 blocks placed, per year...or, 171.23 blocks per day or 7.13 blocks per hour, assuming a 24 hour work period. Note that this allows for no off-days for religious festivals, accidents, bad weather, etc....

Which is why your garden-variety Egyptologists react with such venom when people ask simple questions that their theories ignore.

As regards #3, if you have a truly catastrophic event occur on Earth, there may be no other refuge except space...any survivors would necessarily "come from space".... :D

Now let's take your pyramid shall we?
http://www.catchpenny.org/howbuilt.html
http://www.catchpenny.org/movebig.html
http://www.catchpenny.org/accretion.html
http://www.catchpenny.org/control.html

http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_2.htm

You have 2,500,000 blocks in a 6,500,000 ton(metric) pyramid.
That is an average 2,6 ton block.
You stack that in 20 years 2,500,000 times.
For purposes of this discussion I'm using as the bench labor mark the modern labor manyear of 2000 hours.
So you have avalaible to you 40,000 hours per man over the twenty years that the Pharough's ministry budgeted for the pyramid.
Evidence of 40,000 men fed capacity bakeries have been dug up near the site of the Pyramids.
An average healthy man is easily capable of 1/5 horsepower sustained for hours. You would be surprised at how powerful humans really are. Gorillas may have six to eight times human surge strength; but they cannot sustain it for any period beyond a few minutes. Humans are unfortunate in that they share with that peculiar set of animals, like the horse, and the camels, adaptation for dry savannah conditions. They can operate under load for hours. For example, it was well understood among armies before the advent of motorized transportastion that for any movement of more than two days march, men would outmarch horses, because men could travel farther at a forced pace under load with far less rest. This was recently learned again in Afghanistan where the U.S. Army SOF teams on foot outmarched the valley bound horse mounted Taliban in that mountainous country and succeeded in cutting many mujahadin off repeatedly by called in ambush airstrikes. The only animals that kept up with the troops(American and Northern Alliance were mules.)

What has this to do with the Egyptians and piling blocks?
This.
With two hundred men I can move a ten ton block and sled.. It won't be easy, but I can drag it unlubricated using a skid sled uphill at a 15 degree incline at the rate of two miles an hour. Each men will have to drag 75 kilograms(You include five tons for the skid sled.. Not carry 75 kilograms, just drag it. Now those men do it the way we have done it for ten thousand years. 1,2,3, drag...1,2,3, drag. You shift out your drag team every hour on the hour. and you have three drag teams per block. Now that is far heavier than your average 2.6 ton block; where the drag teams actually consist of fifty men who would be dragging 72 kilograms(the skid sled weighs 1000 kg) each and would be also rotated out. one in three.

Now you have to set 625 blocks per eight hour day. Is that possible? That is 25 blocks an hour.
The assumption that the scoffers always had was that this was always impossible. Yet when you consider the MANPOWER? A set team would have something called a setjig to shove the blocks into preset alignment as the blocks came up. Those bl;ocks would be in train one right behind the other as per an assembly line-a whole caravan of them stretching all the way down that humongous ramp. The sled runs up to the unload point and my set team slams in their deload shims on the inboard runner. Then my waterbuffalo(or men, it makes nodifference) operate the swing ram that pounds that block into its set. Elapsed time? 30 seconds. Next!
You can swing the block if you need to using the The A frame set ram. A one ton log will move that block any direction you want it smartly and you already know how that works. When used in war its called a battering ram. Here its nothing more that a giant stone mason's set. For turning the stone on the corner? You pull ninety the skid sled at forty five degrees to the the arc of the intended turn. Simple.

Now I said that I can do this. True, any halfway competent builder or person who's run construction can organize this. No mystery. Its just piling blocks. Now moving a 7000 ton lighthouse in one piece? That is hard.

[jjrakman]

I honestly think your'e underestimating the magnitude and precision of the thing. It's really far from being just a pile of rocks.

The first thing that should give one pause, is when you also consider the other pyramids in Egypt. If you accept the orthodox model that human progress always moves slowly forward, then the Great Pyramid stands in defiance of this. The pyramids built in the 5th and 6th Dynasties are so poorly built that they have collapsed. While the Great Pyramid supposedly built in the 4th Dynasty, stood for millenia. Why would they forget their tried and true construction techniques when every aspect of their lives was written down and recorded carefully? Could it suggest that the later pyramids were actually attempts to mimick the Great Pyramid? Futhermore, what other construction can you name that has lasted for Millenia relatively intact? It's like making a Porshe, forgetting how to do that, then going back to making Model T's.

Second, if you take the orthodox view that these were meant as tombs, where are the bodies? Not one shred of evidence, either bodies or or any signs of burial were ever found in the pyramids. In fact, The Pyramid of Sekhemket there was found a sarcphagus that was intact, not disturbed by grave robbers that when opened was found to be empty.

Third, unlike just about every other Egyptian structure, there are no inscriptions on this thing whatsoever, aside from Colonol Howard Vyse's graffitti.

Fouth, this thing is aligned with the cardinal points with a deviation from true of less than 0.015 percent. There's a difference of less than 8 inches between its shortes and longest sides. An error of a fraction of 1 percent on an average side of 9063 inches. Each corner is within less than 1 degree of a perfect 90 degree angle. It stands in the exact center of the Earth's landmass. Why such precision in a primitive pile of rocks?

Fifth, you mention the average 2.6 ton weitght of the stones. Keep in mind this is an average. Courses 1-18 diminish in their highs from about 55 inches to about 23 inches ranging 2-5 tons. Then at Course 19 they suddenly increase again to stones rangin 10 -15 tons. Which defies logic when you consider that most builders would call for decreasing size and weight of stones the higher you go. The king's Chamber containes stones weighing up to 70 tons. Why make the construction more difficult the higher you go than it has to be, especially considering your manuevering the stones with ropes and levers?

Sixth, this thing consists of about 2.3 million blocks of stone. According to the othodox view it took an estimate of something like 100,000 men 20 years to build it. If the workers had a 10 hour day, and worked 365 days per year, they would need to place 31 stones in position every half hour. And this is everything was done without a hitch. This doesn't even take into account the inevitable accidents of falling stones and crushed workers which would set back construction considerably. Ropes and levers?

Seventh, around the base of the Pyramid, one of the fallen polished casing stones was studied and found to have a tolerance of less than one hundredth of an inch.

We won't even get into the 200 ton blocks of the Valley Temple.

And then of course you have the redating of ths Sphinx which is simply irrifutable.

I don't know, seems like a pretty imrpessive pile of rocks to me. :D

The problem with Egyptologists, is that Egyptologists are Egyptologists. Egyptologists are not engineers. Egyptologists are not geologists. Egyptologists are not architects. So Egyptologists are not really qualified to comment on the construction or age of these structures.

Reality is going to be whatever it wants to be. Reality doesn't care about careers, sending kids to college, paying mortgages, or people's standing in the community. ;)


But, the completion date could be congruant with the time of Kafre. That's definitely possible. But I don't really see how stone knives and bear skins could have accomplished such a thing int he time alloted.

[Damocles]

I honestly think your'e underestimating the magnitude and precision of the thing. It's really far from being just a pile of rocks.

The first thing that should give one pause, is when you also consider the other pyramids in Egypt. If you accept the orthodox model that human progress always moves slowly forward, then the Great Pyramid stands in defiance of this. The pyramids built in the 5th and 6th Dynasties are so poorly built that they have collapsed. While the Great Pyramid supposedly built in the 4th Dynasty, stood for millenia. Why would they forget their tried and true construction techniques when every aspect of their lives was written down and recorded carefully? Could it suggest that the later pyramids were actually attempts to mimick the Great Pyramid? Futhermore, what other construction can you name that has lasted for Millenia relatively intact? It's like making a Porshe, forgetting how to do that, then going back to making Model T's.

Second, if you take the orthodox view that these were meant as tombs, where are the bodies? Not one shred of evidence, either bodies or or any signs of burial were ever found in the pyramids. In fact, The Pyramid of Sekhemket there was found a sarcphagus that was intact, not disturbed by grave robbers that when opened was found to be empty.

Third, unlike just about every other Egyptian structure, there are no inscriptions on this thing whatsoever, aside from Colonol Howard Vyse's graffitti.

Fouth, this thing is aligned with the cardinal points with a deviation from true of less than 0.015 percent. There's a difference of less than 8 inches between its shortes and longest sides. An error of a fraction of 1 percent on an average side of 9063 inches. Each corner is within less than 1 degree of a perfect 90 degree angle. It stands in the exact center of the Earth's landmass. Why such precision in a primitive pile of rocks?

Fifth, you mention the average 2.6 ton weitght of the stones. Keep in mind this is an average. Courses 1-18 diminish in their highs from about 55 inches to about 23 inches ranging 2-5 tons. Then at Course 19 they suddenly increase again to stones rangin 10 -15 tons. Which defies logic when you consider that most builders would call for decreasing size and weight of stones the higher you go. The king's Chamber containes stones weighing up to 70 tons. Why make the construction more difficult the higher you go than it has to be, especially considering your manuevering the stones with ropes and levers?

Sixth, this thing consists of about 2.3 million blocks of stone. According to the othodox view it took an estimate of something like 100,000 men 20 years to build it. If the workers had a 10 hour day, and worked 365 days per year, they would need to place 31 stones in position every half hour. And this is everything was done without a hitch. This doesn't even take into account the inevitable accidents of falling stones and crushed workers which would set back construction considerably. Ropes and levers?

Seventh, around the base of the Pyramid, one of the fallen polished casing stones was studied and found to have a tolerance of less than one hundredth of an inch.

We won't even get into the 200 ton blocks of the Valley Temple.

And then of course you have the redating of ths Sphinx which is simply irrifutable.

I don't know, seems like a pretty imrpessive pile of rocks to me. :D

The problem with Egyptologists, is that Egyptologists are Egyptologists. Egyptologists are not engineers. Egyptologists are not geologists. Egyptologists are not architects. So Egyptologists are not really qualified to comment on the construction or age of these structures.

Reality is going to be whatever it wants to be. Reality doesn't care about careers, sending kids to college, paying mortgages, or people's standing in the community. ;)


But, the completion date could be congruant with the time of Kafre. That's definitely possible. But I don't really see how stone knives and bear skins could have accomplished such a thing int he time alloted.

1. Why would the Egyptians abandon pyramid building? We, ourselves, no longer have the technological base to build IOWA class battleships. Why? We still have the knowledge base written down though we have lost the skillsets. The need wasn't there. Why build IOWAs when we can build ARLEIGH BURKEs and OHIOs? When I say we can build pyramids today, I ASSURE you I KNOW what I am talking about. The actual construction techniques are SIMPLE. It is the logistics that take a bit of doing. The reason the Egyptians gave up on the process is that their religion changed, their technology changed(improved) and they became POOR. Only rich societies try big flashy one shot pyramids and Apollo moon programs. Poor ones go back to the drawing board, improve their technology, and build High Frontier space programs and Giza incrementally.

2. As for Millenial construction that has lasted as long? Given that the Egyptians were the first off the chocks with their pyramids? Lets visit Cuzco in three thousand years? Or better yet, the Panama canal in about five thousand.

What an Egyptian pyramid actually is, is a very small manmade mountain subject to the effects of erosion. Those piles could take hundreds of thousands of years to erode, or 5x10^15 joules to dissappear in one second. Its a matter of applied energy.

3. Whether the pyramid is a tomb or not?

http://www.egyptsites.co.uk/lower/saqqara/pyramids/teti.html If you read the text you will see that the grave robbers left an arm of that poor sod behind.

4. If I want inscriptions on the thing, I'll hire chisellers(lawyers). But seriously, the lack of inscription is not just restricted to this pile. A lot of pyramids lack the burial chamber and the ante temple complex with the inscriptions. Khufu's pile is not unique in this. Besides that has nothing to do with the point I raised which is that humans built this thing.

5. So you wonder why the Egyptians used the north star and the geometry of square and angle to lay out their pile? Simple. Unless you have a surveyed benchmarked square on the surface of the Earth, you cannot prepare flat level ground for any structure

How do you establish this? How do you run azimuth and bearing to align and slope your pile of bricks wnen all you have is a graduated idiot stick, a runner with twine, another runner with a wood mallet and stakes, a copper right angle with a plumb bob and the human eye?

You use stars and an edge transit. Its all you have. What amazes me is not that the Egyptians used this method,. but that they were so clumsy in the doing. The Mayan temple builders used the same technique and laid theirs more accurately out.

End Part 1

[Damocles]

Pyramids; Part 2

6. The rock piling Egyptians weren't stupid. The stones were sized and placed according to the needs of compression loading in the course runs. If you noticed the pyramid attempts before Khufu's, many of those piles blew out because the compression loading wasn't correctly factored to keep the core filler from bursting out the facet sides, leaving rubble piles.

I already discussed a ten ton stone. Do you want me to describe the 1000 ton stones the Egyptions moved on their track and sledge system? Or that you maintain the same one man/seventy five kilogram ratio for each drag team?
Now that would seem to indicate 13,400 hundred men on the ropes? Did you look at the light house we moved in 1999?

http://www.catchpenny.org/movebig.html

You use levers and the rams to shock move that huge mass thereby reducing your drag team to a more managable 1000 men. Gravity and kinetic energy substitute for muscle. Its slow, but give me a lever and a sufficiently massive ram and I can move anything-ANYTHING.

7. Lets do your calculation again shall we?

One man year=2000 hours
20 man years =40000 hours.
2,500,000 stones divided by 40000 man hours=625 stones per hour or eleven stones per minute or 2 tenths of one stone per second.

That is assuming that you are setting one course per run or one facet or had one drag team, one set team and one ram and lever team working on your rock pile.

Nope. Run three courses per facet side(This is laying blocks remember?). Run the race around your rock pile corkscrew pattern. You set twelve blocks per minute.

Now recalculate.

12x60=720 blocks per hour which matches in great excess what you have to meet to pile your pyramid in twenty years using an eight hour day. And you can do that with forty thousand men, not 100,000 men.(including the quarry cutters.).

Sounds impossible(not) even factoring rain days and accidents.

8. Now how do you dress a stone to get a perfect edge?

http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/ancients/stonecutting.html

The Egyptians used vinegared wedge, copper bitted bow drills, obsidian toothed wood saws, water, and granite block polishing trowels to cut, dress and shape their stone. We see this from the tool marks on the very polished block you sight as an example. Especially since there was a quality control priest who chiselled the Pharough's inspection mark on the stones he trued up with his copper right angle!(Pesky little bureaucrat!)

The problem with construction professionals is that they are construction professionals. They have to send their kids to college and they know nothing about mummification and Cunieform B. So in reality, they can't comment on how the Egyptians mummified their dead or what Osirus meant in the religious pantheon of Egyptian gods.

Furthermore, they cannot comment on the age of the Sphinx;

http://www.sis.gov.eg/ancient/front.htm

http://www.sis.gov.eg/sphinx/html/sphnx003.htm

All I can say about Doctor Schock's work is that he makes one very important fundamental mistake. He confuses the mechanism of erosion, Water does not erode. Wind does not erode. It is the grit carried by water and wind that erodes and wears away a surface. To distinguish between the two mediums that carry the grit you have to examine the channelling and frankly, in the case of soft sandstone? The erosion channelling from windborne and waterborne grit is damned hard to tell apart.

[jjrakman]

Well, you definitely outweighed me on this topic. No pun intended. Good stuff. I will however counter you on a few points. Anything I'm not directly addressing, I'm conceeding on.

2. As for Millenial construction that has lasted as long? Given that the Egyptians were the first off the chocks with their pyramids? Lets visit Cuzco in three thousand years? Or better yet, the Panama canal in about five thousand.

That's a good point, but I'm not referencing structures at some point in the future. I'm primarily talking about present day Earth.

3. Whether the pyramid is a tomb or not?

The quote you pointed out actually speculates that it may have been the arm of that poor sod. It doesn't identify it. It could easly have been the arm of one of the grave robbers themselves.

If I want inscriptions on the thing, I'll hire chisellers(lawyers). But seriously, the lack of inscription is not just restricted to this pile. A lot of pyramids lack the burial chamber and the ante temple complex with the inscriptions. Khufu's pile is not unique in this.

Which to me is what makes them so alien (for lack of a better word) to the other structures the Egyptians definitely did build.

Besides that has nothing to do with the point I raised which is that humans built this thing.

It does insomuch that it isn't congruent with other structures that we are certain beyond debate that the Egyptians did in fact build. But I don't argue this fact at all. In fact in science you look for the simplest answer. And the simplest answer is that hyumans built them. All I would argue is that our knowledge of the construction methods, and the age of the structures is incomplete. In fact, barring using a time machine to go back to the time the pyramids were built to videotape it taking place, I'm not certain how anyone can say with certainty what took place thousands of years ago. Just my opinion.

5. So you wonder why the Egyptians used the north star and the geometry of square and angle to lay out their pile?

No. I'm wondering how such modern precision can be accomplished on such a massive scale using primitive stone workers, rope, levers and copper tools.

The problem with construction professionals is that they are construction professionals. They have to send their kids to college and they know nothing about mummification and Cunieform B. So in reality, they can't comment on how the Egyptians mummified their dead or what Osirus meant in the religious pantheon of Egyptian gods.

I would absolutely agree. Which is why I also think construction professionals should be the ones to tell us about the engineering and construction of the Pyramids, not historians. The historians (Egyptologists) should stick to the mummifcation and Cuneiform B, and religious traditions. I wouldn't go to a podiatrist for a heart problem. Similarily, I wouldn't go to cardiac surgeon for a foot problem.

http://www.sis.gov.eg/sphinx/html/sphnx003.htm

This was really interesting. I would also be interested to see if Schoch has a rebuttal, I'd bet he does. I guess the thing that intrigues me about Schoch more than any of the others, is that he's really no New Ager. He completed a bachelor's degree in both anthropology and geology. He then earned two Masters degrees and a Ph.D. Now he's a tenured associate professor at Boston University's College of General Studies. Certainly he's no John Anthony West, and at the very least his theories should be considered.

Anyway, great discussion, I learned alot!

One thing I would like to see done, is the attempt to retrieve the wooden pole in the shaft of the Pyramid that Gatinbrink sent his robot down, or at the very least a piece of it. That pole could be dated and give a more definite date for construction.

Do you subscribe to either of the ramp theories, or the roller theory?

Also, what do you do for a living exactly? Not a sarchastic question. I'm genuinely interested.

[Damocles]

I am an industrial contractor; more specifically, a construction manager by training.

Specifically, I build infrastructure like roads, bridges, factories, etc.

Beyond that I will not go.

----------------------------------------
http://www.catchpenny.org/shaftend.html

I would clearly like to recover one of those copper pins! Much better, I would like to get through those shaft plugs.

http://members.aol.com/aditt48670/pyramid.html is an unusual idea I do not find to be valid.

Now as to the ramp or roller theory? Clearly I support a timber layered reinforced tracked ramp. Rollers? No. Sled and friction rail system. You need hard planking and "slick" friction to slide and move those blocks safely up an incline.(Remember the lighthouse? We aren't stupid either.).

[jjrakman]

I am an industrial contractor; more specifically, a construction manager by training.

Specifically, I build infrastructure like roads, bridges, factories, etc.

Cool stuff. See, in my humble opinion, a person like yourself (and also geologists), would be far more qualified to comment on the construction and age of the Pyramids, than an Egyptologist/historian. An Egyptologist/historian knows nothing about the engineering details and statistics that you cite. Honestly ask yourself, what would an Egyptologist know about engineering or construction that you couldn't teach them? Probably nothing. But that's just my opinion.

But you never answered these questions:

Do you subscribe to either of the ramp theories, or the roller theory?

[Damocles]

By ramp theory, do you mean the straight approach, or the spiral approach, or the multiple ramp and ledge, or......

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/pyramidlifts.htm

I must say

http://www.grisel.net/images/egypt/giza_aerial3.jpg

Do you see the outlined compressed ground footprint surrounding the pyramid to the southwest of Khufu's rockpile?(The pyramid at the top of the photo is Khufu's.)

That ground was compacted by something HEAVY.

The pyramid in question was surrounded by a massive cofferdammed ramp that wrapped it.

I've already described that the ramp would be plated with a smooth planked paving and that on top of that would be skid tracks for a slick friction sled train of blocks.

Anybody saying that the Egyptians would leapfrog logs as rollers to convey a sled up a ramp has never handled logs or a drag weight under load. The only way to keep such a load moving in a straight line using rollers is a little invention called a wheel and axle. Otherwise you need guide rails as the load tends to acquire harmonic moment and skid out either left or right depending which side of the drag team is the weak side during the heave-usually the left side as you face load front.(This is true for machines too, so don't blame the men on the rope!)

Another problem is how do drop those logs in across the tow lines? Logs are not the answer. Skids are. If you do it right and you plank the road with hafl timbers herringboned fashion; you dry drag your load up a 15% grade with the manpower specified, with minimum distance intervals, minimum sized drag teams and little risk of accident.

[3DMaster]

I just used that extreme to illustrate that though I don't believe in those theories, they still make good stories.

Really, it's several theories (to me):

1. Visitation in ancient times influenced our ancestors.
2. Aliens created man
3. Man came form space

1 is certainly possible. But we do know how the pyramids were built.

Uh, no, we know WHEN the pyramids were buit, but not HOW. There are theories on how they were built, however, there are some things about the pyramids that we couldn't reproduce today, or at least would have some extreme difficulty with doing it.

Anyway on thing the pyramids show is that the Egyptians were much more scientifically advanced, and had much more knowledge than the established Egyptians say they had. (The exact dimensions of the Earth wrapped up inside the great pyramid for example.)

The sphynx however is in a way much more interesting. Every geologist who wasn't told up front by archeologists 'when the sphynx was built' get a figure that it is at least 7,000 years old and as old as 12,500. Who built it, we don't know, but it wasn't the Egyptians, at least not the Egyptians as we know them.

[Damocles]

Uh, no, we know WHEN the pyramids were buit, but not HOW. (^1)There are theories on how they were built, however, there are some things about the pyramids that we couldn't reproduce today, or at least would have some extreme difficulty with doing it.(^2)

Anyway on thing the pyramids show is that the Egyptians were much more scientifically advanced, and had much more knowledge than the established Egyptians say they had.(^3) (The exact dimensions of the Earth wrapped up inside the great pyramid for example(^4).)

The sphynx however is in a way much more interesting. Every geologist who wasn't told up front by archeologists 'when the sphynx was built' get a figure that it is at least 7,000 years old and as old as 12,500. Who built it, we don't know, but it wasn't the Egyptians, at least not the Egyptians as we know them.

^1 We can only know when, generally, and we have a fairly good idea of how WE would do it, given their resources and time.

^2 Absolutely correct. If we had tol build a pyramid in the American Southwest there are things we would have to change about the way we did it. We would have to rail our blocks in hundreds of kilometers(using the wheel and the steam engine*) and build without a massive river to us help, for example.

^3 Absolutely. In fact with few exceptions I concur with the statements that archaeologists seriously underestimate the skill of ancient civilizations' abilities across the board. Those peoples worked to the peak limits of their available materials and energy resources to build some amazing things. Given enough time and enough men you can build anything to the load limits of wood, stone and the lift limits of muscle powered lever, wedge, and when you have it pulley and wheel. Astute use of mass inertia gravity and kinetic energy give you mechanical advantages that we assume we have due to our machines. The ancients though were able to generate those advantages with workarounds and dodges(applied physics). Stone, wood, muscle, and bone. If you concede the equivalence of mind, the pyramids are well within those limits.

^4 http://www.catchpenny.org/pyramid.html Mass center distribution is off by 1/2 pi r^2 You'd be closer if the thing were in Antartica.

^5 Much of the Sphinx controversy is based on erosion evidence. Potassium argon dating of any chisel site on the artifact's face is a better way to date the thing. Has anybody tried this?

----------------------------------------------
* It is amazing how close the Greeks came to the twin pillars of our modern strength-the combustion engine and massive iron working.

http://www.udayton.edu/~hume/Steam/steam.htm

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Greeks.htm

Now toss in the Baghdad battery and the routine knowledge of electroplating silver? What happened?

Makes you want to throttle those numbskulls who burned the library of Alexandria.

That set us back 2000 years.

[3DMaster]

^1 We can only know when, generally, and we have a fairly good idea of how WE would do it, given their resources and time.

^2 Absolutely correct. If we had tol build a pyramid in the American Southwest there are things we would have to change about the way we did it. We would have to rail our blocks in hundreds of kilometers(using the wheel and the steam engine*) and build without a massive river to us help, for example.

^3 Absolutely. In fact with few exceptions I concur with the statements that archaeologists seriously underestimate the skill of ancient civilizations' abilities across the board. Those peoples worked to the peak limits of their available materials and energy resources to build some amazing things. Given enough time and enough men you can build anything to the load limits of wood, stone and the lift limits of muscle powered lever, wedge, and when you have it pulley and wheel. Astute use of mass inertia gravity and kinetic energy give you mechanical advantages that we assume we have due to our machines. The ancients though were able to generate those advantages with workarounds and dodges(applied physics). Stone, wood, muscle, and bone. If you concede the equivalence of mind, the pyramids are well within those limits.

^4 http://www.catchpenny.org/pyramid.html Mass center distribution is off by 1/2 pi r^2 You'd be closer if the thing were in Antartica.

^5 Much of the Sphinx controversy is based on erosion evidence. Potassium argon dating of any chisel site on the artifact's face is a better way to date the thing. Has anybody tried this?

The face of the sphinx is useless. The head is much younger than the rest; it was recarved. If you look at the thing, it's much too small for the entire sphinx. Most likely it was once the only thing above sand, and wind eroded it much faster away until it was barely recognizable and the egyptians recarved the head - which many believe was originally a lion's head and not a human head at all.

[Damocles]

The face of the sphinx is useless. The head is much younger than the rest; it was recarved. If you look at the thing, it's much too small for the entire sphinx. Most likely it was once the only thing above sand, and wind eroded it much faster away until it was barely recognizable and the egyptians recarved the head - which many believe was originally a lion's head and not a human head at all.

The rump was carved after the head for that very reason originally. Where would you take the dating sample the forepaws?

[3DMaster]

The rump was carved after the head for that very reason originally. Where would you take the dating sample the forepaws?

No, the rumb was carved BEFORE the head. The head was recarved much later, after it was most eroded away by wind. The rump and the paws have a very different erosion pattern than the head: rounded rivolutes, erosion consistent with heavy rainfall over an extended period of time.

[Damocles]

No, the rumb was carved BEFORE the head. The head was recarved much later, after it was most eroded away by wind. The rump and the paws have a very different erosion pattern than the head: rounded rivolutes, erosion consistent with heavy rainfall over an extended period of time.

Okay:

http://www.catchpenny.org/sphinx.html

http://www.catchpenny.org/sphinx.html

You have two thousand years to do this with sand carried water, according to Schock;

http://www.farhorizon.com/Africa/eqypt_images/sphinx-good2_lg.jpg

http://home.tiscalinet.ch/christoph.baumann/images/egypt/sphinx.jpg

http://www.cord.edu/faculty/andersod/050505pyramid_sphinx.jpg

Now you have a problem. this is wind borne grit eroded sandstone,

http://creationsafaris.com/photos/UT01-RockSwirlsCoyoteButtes.jpg

And this is the predominantly waterborne eroded variety;

http://4blurringlines.com/images/sandstoneandseaopt.jpg

The problem is as I said before, the erosion runnels in either water borne or windborne erosion is hard to declare flatly. The fact is that I expect more erosion and wear in a desert environment than I do from water action. Rain is a sometime thing but the wind and the sand it carries is an always event-especially in the desert.

Schock works is subject to justifiable and quite heavy criticism on his failure to account for that factor alone.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid/explore/sphinx.html

Notice that the Sphinx is a single carved artefact made out of a sedimented and layered stone deposit? The base, belly and paws appeared to be of a fairly hard limestone resistant to dew wicking and cracking. The middle of the Sphinx up to the back and just below the neck and head appears to be porous sandstone quite vulnerable to dew wicking temperture induced cleavage and wind borne grit erosion. The head for the most part appears to be the hardest feature of the Sphinx being the least eroded and the most close grained rock. That is the rock that I want to date, since it will have been the most chisel resistant. It was also the first exposed to the elements.

I invite you take the NOVA video tour of the pit that the Sphinx sits in. The Egyptians may have carved twice on that head but it was the first part of the Sphinx exposed. The Rump was the last. It was dug out. Therefore the head remains the potassium argon target of choice. And the broken off nose is the choice site since you can get two target samples, unless you want to tell me that the Egyptians carved on that head on scaffolds some thirty meters in the air after they had the body uncovered?

If we spot date the Sphinx, head flanks and rump, I think you will be surprised to find the head to be the part carved first.

[Breea]

...OK...what about what looks like a carving on the inside of one of the pyramids
that looks like a helicopter?......Or others carvings that looking like space travelers?

[Damocles]

...OK...what about what looks like a carving on the inside of one of the pyramids
that looks like a helicopter?......Or others carvings that looking like space travelers?

Source please?

Edit; oh you mean this?

http://dudeman.net/siriusly/aliens/ast.shtml

http://www.ufocom.org/pages/v_us/m_archeo/Abydos/abydos.html

Basically it is overwriting of heiroglyphics by Ramses II claiming credit for things he didn't do.

Incidentally, you read in the article"In the Kingdom of the blind the one-eyed man is king." The author attributes that wrongly to the French. It is actually the Castillian Spaniards who said that. It was also they, who invented the Italian saying,"Revenge is a dish best served cold." They were a mean bunch.

Cheers,

[3DMaster]

Okay:

You have two thousand years to do this with sand carried water, according to Schock;

The problem is as I said before, the erosion runnels in either water borne or windborne erosion is hard to declare flatly. The fact is that I expect more erosion and wear in a desert environment than I do from water action. Rain is a sometime thing but the wind and the sand it carries is an always event-especially in the desert.

Schock works is subject to justifiable and quite heavy criticism on his failure to account for that factor alone.

Hence Shoch and others saying it has to be old enough that it was built at a time that Egypt was NOT a desert, that it was tropical with water coming down very, very, very often. Further the Sphynx for a major part of its historical existence was covered up. A nice little thing in the artical talks about how something was only uncovered last century, and thus there is the implication that Sphynx was uncovered much earlier. Oh, wait, the Sphynx wasn't uncovered until the 19th century either. Most notably, the erosion PATTERNS on the sphynx are from rain: rivolutes. Water takes easiest way, and thus erodes that out; it will come together from multiple sources to form a single heavier flow; creating small verticles rounded crevices. This does not work with flooding water that rises up and then down again; it only happens with water landing on the sphynx and then flowing down it - that pattern of erosion is on the sphynx.



Notice that the Sphinx is a single carved artefact made out of a sedimented and layered stone deposit? The base, belly and paws appeared to be of a fairly hard limestone resistant to dew wicking and cracking. The middle of the Sphinx up to the back and just below the neck and head appears to be porous sandstone quite vulnerable to dew wicking temperture induced cleavage and wind borne grit erosion. The head for the most part appears to be the hardest feature of the Sphinx being the least eroded and the most close grained rock. That is the rock that I want to date, since it will have been the most chisel resistant. It was also the first exposed to the elements.

The hardest, and yet so eroded it is much too small to fit the body; apparrently long enough ago the Egyptians recarved it back when the supposedly original builder built it.

I invite you take the NOVA video tour of the pit that the Sphinx sits in. The Egyptians may have carved twice on that head but it was the first part of the Sphinx exposed. The Rump was the last. It was dug out. Therefore the head remains the potassium argon target of choice. And the broken off nose is the choice site since you can get two target samples, unless you want to tell me that the Egyptians carved on that head on scaffolds some thirty meters in the air after they had the body uncovered?

If we spot date the Sphinx, head flanks and rump, I think you will be surprised to find the head to be the part carved first.

???

You won't get the date it was carved with argon dating, you get the date the rock was formed. Which would mean you get the youngest date if the sphynx rock didn't form in the same time, deeper is earlier. If you take a piece of the rock on the edge now, and take some plantlife from it, you'll get a date of a days to decades when wind deposited it on it, and it somehow managed to stay there. The layer of rock that was revealed to the world the moment the carving was finished is long gone, eroded away, whether it was recarved or not.

[3DMaster]

Source please?

Edit; oh you mean this?

http://dudeman.net/siriusly/aliens/ast.shtml

http://www.ufocom.org/pages/v_us/m_archeo/Abydos/abydos.html

Basically it is overwriting of heiroglyphics by Ramses II claiming credit for things he didn't do.

Incidentally, you read in the article"In the Kingdom of the blind the one-eyed man is king." The author attributes that wrongly to the French. It is actually the Castillian Spaniards who said that. It was also they, who invented the Italian saying,"Revenge is a dish best served cold." They were a mean bunch.

Cheers,

Now why don't I believe that explantion so easily...

oh, yeah, they recarve something, plaster falls out, and they just happen to form, not 1, not even 2, not 3, no 4 things looking exactly like extremely modern vehicles, all in the same place, grouped nicely together and NO WHERE ELSE in the entirely of Egypt did recarving ever produce anything even close to resembling modern looking vehicles.

Is rather a big coincidence, isn't it?

Now, 1. Okay, I can grasp that, I'm even willing to give you 2, but 4? In the same place? Yet nowhere else?

[Damocles]

Now why don't I believe that explantion so easily...

oh, yeah, they recarve something, plaster falls out, and they just happen to form, not 1, not even 2, not 3, no 4 things looking exactly like extremely modern vehicles, all in the same place, grouped nicely together and NO WHERE ELSE in the entirely of Egypt did recarving ever produce anything even close to resembling modern looking vehicles.

Is rather a big coincidence, isn't it?

Now, 1. Okay, I can grasp that, I'm even willing to give you 2, but 4? In the same place? Yet nowhere else?

Let me see if I can source some evidence;

http://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art.shtml (http://)

Now consider Ezekiel;

http://www.cforc.com/kjv/Ezekiel/

All of that is the best evidence that something funny is going on in the skies and people are recording it to the best of their ability.

The Chinese had these;

http://hometown.hces.tc.edu.tw/eng/cultural/toys.htm (http://)

many of them around the time of Marco Polo.

Those are facts not in dispute not well known.

But the Egyptians did not have helicopters or aircraft of our complexity, or performance. Period.

Where is the industrial footprint?

You leave behind mines, foundries, and assembly sheds when you build those artifacts.

An artisan can make a Baghdad battery and escape notice.

But if you build a chariot we dig you up three thousand years later and find your stables and barracks.

Best wishes;

[Breea]

Have you ever seen " Chariots of the Gods " ?..It's available now on dvd.

Breea

[Gemini1999]

Have you ever seen " Chariots of the Gods " ?..It's available now on dvd.

Breea

Breea -

I remember seeing that back in the 70's. I read the book to and ate it all up...

I admit that it could all be crap, but I think that it's more of a stretch of the imagination to believe than not to.

Some think that Von Daniken just embellished on a bad idea just to sell books and make some money.

Bad ideas.....don't you just love those? Don't you wish that you had thought of it first?

There are those that beleive....and those that don't. It's much more fun from where I sit!

Best,
Bryan

[jjrakman]

There are those that beleive....and those that don't. It's much more fun from where I sit!

And then there's me. Until I see actual videotape of ANYTHING, I'll consider all options.

[Damocles]

Hence Shoch and others saying it has to be old enough that it was built at a time that Egypt was NOT a desert, that it was tropical with water coming down very, very, very often. Further the Sphynx for a major part of its historical existence was covered up. A nice little thing in the artical talks about how something was only uncovered last century, and thus there is the implication that Sphynx was uncovered much earlier. Oh, wait, the Sphynx wasn't uncovered until the 19th century either. Most notably, the erosion PATTERNS on the sphynx are from rain: rivolutes. Water takes easiest way, and thus erodes that out; it will come together from multiple sources to form a single heavier flow; creating small verticles rounded crevices. This does not work with flooding water that rises up and then down again; it only happens with water landing on the sphynx and then flowing down it - that pattern of erosion is on the sphynx.

The Helocene climate of North Africa was one of wide shallow lakes, grasslands and seasonal rainfall. To be honest we don't have good data from that region of the world because nobody has done the crap with the tree rings and the soil cores, seed spore counts, that we've done in Europe and North America.

http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2001AM/finalprogram/abstract_27499.htm

GEOARCHAEOLOGY OF UMM AKHTAR PLAYA: EARLY HOLOCENE PALAEOENVIRONMENTS OF S. EGYPT
NICOLL, Kathleen, Chevron Petroleum Technology Company, 6001 Bollinger Canyon Rd, San Ramon, CA 94583, nika@chevron.com.
Integrated lithostratigraphic and geochronologic studies of Umm Akhtar Playa, a dry lake located at N 22 deg 36’ E 30 deg 18’ in southern Egypt, indicate the accumulation and rapid desiccation of a sizeable (>65 sq km) standing waterbody during the Late Quaternary. Twenty-two radiocarbon dates on hearths and incorporated organic materials bracket ‘wet’ phases from ~8915–8580 C-14 yr BP and ~7105–5955 C-14 yr BP. During these intervals, rapid incursions of sediment-laden flows discharged into the basin after seasonal or periodic floods, depositing lithic gravels (Qal) and massive muds (Qp) which are locally interstratified with ribbons of aeolian sand (Qd) along the paleoshore. The ponded water was formerly deep and persistent enough to create a beach berm of rolled pebbles, and to sustain cultural activities. Artifacts of the Early Neolithic-Neolithic tradition, including ostrich eggshell vessels, beads, lithics, and grinding tools, provide a context for reconstructing human occupation of the site through the close of the 6th millennium BP. Cultural abandonment, as well as increasing amounts of sand upsection, evaporite precipitation, and the formation of large (5 m) polygonal cracks, marked the final desiccation of the playa. Comparison of the AMS dates from Umm Akhtar Playa to a compilation of 536 published radiocarbon dates corroborate a period of enhanced surface water storage in Egypt and northern Sudan from 8100-6000 BP. This ‘wet’ phase appears to lag the Northern Hemisphere seasonal insolation maximum centered at 10,400 BP, and the greatest frequency of African lake highstands (9500-8500 BP).

So we know they had grasslands and 1500 years of seasonal rain before they went bonedry about 7000 years ago. Not enough time to erode Mister Sphinx.

Now we have a question. It took some kind of chisel and hammer to carve Mister Sphinx.

Has any remains of tools capable of working that stone Sphinx been uncovered that predates the Old Kingdom? Remember you can use a chisel made of hard obsidian on that soft crumbly stone but the stone tends to splinter and shatter when you strike it with too much force on the stone that forms the head. Wedge cutting is better, when worked with wooden mallets and animal horn or copper tools. When did copper show up?

http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/trades/metals.htm

About 7000 years ago at the earliest.

Let us look at the nearest sizaqble groups of Egyptians to Giza circa 7000 Before present.

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/GeogHist/histories/Oldcivilization/Egyptology/Ecological/magf4a.htm (http://)

Mostly grain farmers, herders, and fishermen living in villages. This condition persisited for the most part until about 6000 thousand years before today.

The hardest, and yet so eroded it is much too small to fit the body; apparrently long enough ago the Egyptians recarved it back when the supposedly original builder built it.

Probably when Thutmoses the fourth put his stupid Sthele between its paws.

Of course you could always buy into the theory that the face was carved to resemble one of these gentlemen:

http://guardians.net/egypt/sphinx/sphinx1.htm (http://)

I think that gives an idea that the Sphinx has been dug out at least four times.

???

You won't get the date it was carved with argon dating, you get the date the rock was formed. Which would mean you get the youngest date if the sphynx rock didn't form in the same time, deeper is earlier. If you take a piece of the rock on the edge now, and take some plantlife from it, you'll get a date of a days to decades when wind deposited it on it, and it somehow managed to stay there. The layer of rock that was revealed to the world the moment the carving was finished is long gone, eroded away, whether it was recarved or not.[/QUOTE]

http://maps.unomaha.edu/Maher/geo117/part2/117radiometric.html

You core drill the rock at selected sites to date the formation date.(Control), then you massspectrograph the surface samples to date the contamination against the core groups. Rock chiselled face is then dated. If you get lucky you find a piece of bone chisel stuck in the sculpture You carbon 14 that.

There are ways to do this. It isn't easy but you can measure the artifact with a lot less guessing than looking at runnels.

Speaking of erosion-waterborne versus windborne; has anyone on this forum ever sandblasted limestone? I am curious if you could describe the difference between wetblasting and dryblasting if you noticed any.

[jjrakman]

The pyramid in question was surrounded by a massive cofferdammed ramp that wrapped it.

Would the ramp be able to handle the constant weight of the traffic? Similarily would the skids be able to handle the weight of the stones?

Anyway on thing the pyramids show is that the Egyptians were much more scientifically advanced, and had much more knowledge than the established Egyptians say they had. (The exact dimensions of the Earth wrapped up inside the great pyramid for example.)

See, I've always felt that the mathematical equations contained in the Pyramid don't prove much of anything either way. They could have been contained in the Pyramid purely by accident. Or, might have been contained in them inherently through the shape and construction of the thing.

If we spot date the Sphinx, head flanks and rump, I think you will be surprised to find the head to be the part carved first.

But the head seems to be in much better repair than the rest of body. Granted the head itself may be older, but the carving of the human face is much younger. I.E. could it have originally been a lion head that was recarved as human at a later date. Have either of you seen Frank Domingo's forensic sketches?

http://membres.lycos.fr/dossierssecrets/mysteres/enigmedusphinx/photo2.jpg

Most notably, the erosion PATTERNS on the sphynx are from rain: rivolutes. Water takes easiest way, and thus erodes that out; it will come together from multiple sources to form a single heavier flow; creating small verticles rounded crevices. This does not work with flooding water that rises up and then down again; it only happens with water landing on the sphynx and then flowing down it - that pattern of erosion is on the sphynx.

Don't forget to consider the Sphinx enclosure:

http://www.morien-institute.org/images/erosion1.jpg

oh, yeah, they recarve something, plaster falls out, and they just happen to form, not 1, not even 2, not 3, no 4 things looking exactly like extremely modern vehicles, all in the same place, grouped nicely together and NO WHERE ELSE in the entirely of Egypt did recarving ever produce anything even close to resembling modern looking vehicles.

I don't necessarily buy that these things are depictions of modern craft. If there were a prior high tech civilization, Atlantis or call it what you will, wouldn't their craft look entirely different that our own? I think it's coincidence.

[jjrakman]

The Helocene climate of North Africa was one of wide shallow lakes, grasslands and seasonal rainfall. To be honest we don't have good data from that region of the world because nobody has done the crap with the tree rings and the soil cores, seed spore counts, that we've done in Europe and North America.

But could the climate have been different, perhaps tropical, if the axis of the Earth had changed at some point in antiquity.

The Piri Reis map was drawn 300 years before Antartica was discovered, and was said to be copied from older sources. What's even more unusual about it, is that it shows what the landmass of antartica looks like, under the ice cap. The last period of ice-free Antartic was what, 6000 years ago? What if the original source of the map was drawn at a time when the Earth's axis was different from it's present position, allowing for a warmer climate for Antartica, and thus a tropical climate for Egypt? Is that possible?


This is where we need an archeo-meteorologist! :D

[3DMaster]

Let me see if I can source some evidence;

http://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art.shtml (http://)

Now consider Ezekiel;

http://www.cforc.com/kjv/Ezekiel/

All of that is the best evidence that something funny is going on in the skies and people are recording it to the best of their ability.

The Chinese had these;

http://hometown.hces.tc.edu.tw/eng/cultural/toys.htm (http://)

many of them around the time of Marco Polo.

Those are facts not in dispute not well known.

But the Egyptians did not have helicopters or aircraft of our complexity, or performance. Period.

Where is the industrial footprint?

You leave behind mines, foundries, and assembly sheds when you build those artifacts.

An artisan can make a Baghdad battery and escape notice.

But if you build a chariot we dig you up three thousand years later and find your stables and barracks.

Best wishes;


Well, I never said the Egyptians HAD them, did I? They could just have SEEN them. Or their ancesters had seen them, and they heard stories. Besides, who says they had to leave anything behind? Consider B5's Vorlons all about the 'not progressing too fast'. If there were aliens there who were like that, they may very well have destroyed all of the cool toys without leaving any evidence of them behind because we were progressing to fast. :shrugs:

[3DMaster]

The Helocene climate of North Africa was one of wide shallow lakes, grasslands and seasonal rainfall. To be honest we don't have good data from that region of the world because nobody has done the crap with the tree rings and the soil cores, seed spore counts, that we've done in Europe and North America.

And that's stated in that site with exactly how much evidence?

So we know they had grasslands and 1500 years of seasonal rain before they went bonedry about 7000 years ago. Not enough time to erode Mister Sphinx.

Well, if Mr. Sphynx like some say is more like 10,000 - 12,500 years old, it would be 3,000 to 5,500 years, and at a time when the last ice age ended, and there was MUCH more rain.

Now we have a question. It took some kind of chisel and hammer to carve Mister Sphinx.

Has any remains of tools capable of working that stone Sphinx been uncovered that predates the Old Kingdom? Remember you can use a chisel made of hard obsidian on that soft crumbly stone but the stone tends to splinter and shatter when you strike it with too much force on the stone that forms the head. Wedge cutting is better, when worked with wooden mallets and animal horn or copper tools. When did copper show up?

http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/trades/metals.htm

About 7000 years ago at the earliest.


You wouldn't need hard obsidian, you can use softer stone. Some stones are sharper than our artificial metal tools. They could have been using them. Plus of course, something WIPED them out, virtually COMPLETELY. A natural disaster of immense magnitudes; can easily destroy and wash away tools. And if it IS done by a previous advanced civilization, they probably didn't use hammer and chisel at all.

Let us look at the nearest sizaqble groups of Egyptians to Giza circa 7000 Before present.

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/GeogHist/histories/Oldcivilization/Egyptology/Ecological/magf4a.htm (http://)

Mostly grain farmers, herders, and fishermen living in villages. This condition persisited for the most part until about 6000 thousand years before today.

:rolleyes: Again, stated without evidence. That's their interpretation. Obviously if the Sphynx was carved some 10,000 years ago, there were a civilization there, wiped out beyond nearly all evidence.


Probably when Thutmoses the fourth put his stupid Sthele between its paws.

Of course you could always buy into the theory that the face was carved to resemble one of these gentlemen:

http://guardians.net/egypt/sphinx/sphinx1.htm (http://)

I think that gives an idea that the Sphinx has been dug out at least four times.

http://maps.unomaha.edu/Maher/geo117/part2/117radiometric.html

You core drill the rock at selected sites to date the formation date.(Control), then you massspectrograph the surface samples to date the contamination against the core groups. Rock chiselled face is then dated. If you get lucky you find a piece of bone chisel stuck in the sculpture You carbon 14 that.

There are ways to do this. It isn't easy but you can measure the artifact with a lot less guessing than looking at runnels.

Speaking of erosion-waterborne versus windborne; has anyone on this forum ever sandblasted limestone? I am curious if you could describe the difference between wetblasting and dryblasting if you noticed any.

Wait, wait. You're saying that the head WAS recarved even if the Sphynx is young, but you're saying the head will show it was carved first anyhow? Any evidence of the earliest carving would be removed with the recarving, so the Sphynx head would STILL show to be the last carving, not the first either way.

Second if it's recarved, as even you say it is judging by the obvious missmatch in size, then you'd have to do it for not just the head, but all of the Sphynx - you'd get the date of the youngest recarving after all, which has nothing to do with the actual age of the Sphynx, and the first time it was carved.

And I would say it's even more guessing. Contamination? The biggest contamination would be our industrial polutents; some of them might very well have removed earlier pollutants. An erosion pattern is an erosion pattern, and if that pattern can't have happened before at least this many years ago, you know it has to be at least that old.

Finally, radio-dating is rather useless. Unlike 'established' science would like you to believe, radioactive decay is anything but stable, it changes constantly. That's just one problem, but even if it were stable, any radio-dating will only work properly until the last time there was a significant climatologicaly change. With such a change, a difference in radioactive particles in the atmosphere and rock (if it's happened because of a (radioa-active) meteorite impact we'll have no idea about, and the whole dating is hinged on that we know the starting concentration of radioactive to non-radiaoctive decayed material.

But could the climate have been different, perhaps tropical, if the axis of the Earth had changed at some point in antiquity.

The Piri Reis map was drawn 300 years before Antartica was discovered, and was said to be copied from older sources. What's even more unusual about it, is that it shows what the landmass of antartica looks like, under the ice cap. The last period of ice-free Antartic was what, 6000 years ago? What if the original source of the map was drawn at a time when the Earth's axis was different from it's present position, allowing for a warmer climate for Antartica, and thus a tropical climate for Egypt? Is that possible?

They SAY at least 400,000 years since Antartica was last not covered in ice. However, that is based on carbon dating, which is just plain silly. Carbon dating - even if it was totally the way the conventional 'scientists' sy it - is useless beyond 50,000. Of course, in real life if it were scientifically sound it's useless beyond the last major climatological change some 12,500 years ago. In real life though, the dating is ueless all together.

You should read a bit on carbon dates found, it's fantastically laughable. 1600 years here, 1000 years in the next tree over, and another tree a meter further it's 2,000 years, and then they say the samples are 1500 years old nicely in the middle. :rolleyes:

[WarMachine]

Let me see if I can source some evidence;

<snip>

But the Egyptians did not have helicopters or aircraft of our complexity, or performance. Period.

Where is the industrial footprint?

You leave behind mines, foundries, and assembly sheds when you build those artifacts.

<snip>

This bit has been bugging me all night. We have no idea what a previous, technological civilization would leave behind -- we can merely extrapolate based on our "verifiable" history(and there is a lot of room to maneuver on that score!).

We're not even sure where they're build-site/industrial center would be.

Additionally, if "Catastrophy X"® were to happen today, reducing current Human society to the Stone Age or worse, how much of our industrial footprint would be left 500-1000 years from now? Not much.

I am reminded of a WW2 book, "American Guerilla in the Phillipines", about a US soldier who escaped the surrender at Bataan/Corrigador and fought in the jungle until 1944. When they were trying to rig up a telegraph system, the main problem they had wasn't the Japanese...it was simple bandits, who would steal the copper wire in the night right off of the trees, to sell back to the Japanese.

Most of our industry, if left unattended, would simply rust away inside of 1000 years; add in riots/looting/wars/land-clearance/all-of-the-above, and most of our signature will be dust and rust, figuratively overnight.

As a straight-out speculation: Let's suppose a "technological" civilization existed c.11000-10000BC; now, completely destroy it -- the means are largely irrelevant. knock whoever survived back to a pre-Stone Age level.

Now, run the clock forward c.5000 years.

What would be left?

[Damocles]

This bit has been bugging me all night. We have no idea what a previous, technological civilization would leave behind -- we can merely extrapolate based on our "verifiable" history(and there is a lot of room to maneuver on that score!).

We're not even sure where they're build-site/industrial center would be.

Additionally, if "Catastrophy X"® were to happen today, reducing current Human society to the Stone Age or worse, how much of our industrial footprint would be left 500-1000 years from now? Not much.

I am reminded of a WW2 book, "American Guerilla in the Phillipines", about a US soldier who escaped the surrender at Bataan/Corrigador and fought in the jungle until 1944. When they were trying to rig up a telegraph system, the main problem they had wasn't the Japanese...it was simple bandits, who would steal the copper wire in the night right off of the trees, to sell back to the Japanese.

Most of our industry, if left unattended, would simply rust away inside of 1000 years; add in riots/looting/wars/land-clearance/all-of-the-above, and most of our signature will be dust and rust, figuratively overnight.

As a straight-out speculation: Let's suppose a "technological" civilization existed c.11000-10000BC; now, completely destroy it -- the means are largely irrelevant. knock whoever survived back to a pre-Stone Age level.

Now, run the clock forward c.5000 years.

What would be left?

1. Foundations of buildings.
2. Mines and their tailings.
3. Cities.
4. Roads and railroads.
5. Artifacts.(Yes; actual helicopter parts- some of those plastics and ceranics are vitually indestructable by any local natural process short of heat- and you would recognize the slag as manmade.)
6. Their environmental pollution.
7. Word of mouth/legends.
7. And if they were our equals?

SATELLITES IN ORBIT.

After all we dig up trilobites, don't we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilobite

Trilobite
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
?Trilobite
Fossil range: Cambrian - Permian

Asaphiscus wheeleri, a trilobite
from Cambrian-age shale in Utah
Scientific classification
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Arthropoda
Class: Trilobita
Walch, 1771

Orders
Agnostida
Redlichiida
Corynexochida
Lichida
Phacopida
Proetida
Asaphida
Harpetida
Ptychopariida
Proposed order
Nektaspida

Trilobites are extinct arthropods in the class Trilobita. They appeared in the Cambrian era and flourished throughout the lower Palaeozoic before slowly declining to extinction. The last of the trilobites disappeared in the mass extinction at the end of the Permian 250 million years ago. Trilobites are well-known, possibly the second most famous fossil group after the dinosaurs, and are the most diverse group of animal species preserved in the fossil record, consisting of eight, possibly nine, orders and over 15,000 species. Most were simple, small marine animals that filtered mud to obtain food.

That is 250 million years DEAD.

Best wishes;

[3DMaster]

1. Foundations of buildings.

Not if an asteroid impact did the killing, leaving nothing but a crater and destroyed it all.

2. Mines and their tailings.

Mines can collapse and disappear. Besides, perhaps they didn't have mines, not the way we do them.

3. Cities.

Whatever catastrophe would have wiped out an advanced civillization would be devastating. More than enough to destroy cities - or submerge them. End of the Ice Age, water levels rose 120 meters, most cities of ours are near water; they'd all be under water, and probably most of it utterly destroyed. There are quite a few sites around the world under water that people have identified as artificial.

4. Roads and railroads.

Long gone; the little bits remaining we wouldn't recognise.

5. Artifacts.(Yes; actual helicopter parts- some of those plastics and ceranics are vitually indestructable by any local natural process short of heat- and you would recognize the slag as manmade.)

We didn't always use plastics and ceramics, no reason why they would have used them, or would have used destrcuctable ones. There's always the heat of lava and volcanic eruptions.

6. Their environmental pollution.

Who says they made any? Ever consider the possiblity they were wiser than us, and looked for clean technology? Or perhaps they did pollute, but cleaned up as it started to become unbearable.

7. Word of mouth/legends.

PLENTY of them around, Atlantis the most famous.

7. And if they were our equals?

SATELLITES IN ORBIT.

Nope, would have decayed and burned up in Earth's atmosphere a long time ago. And of course, that is assuming the even if there WERE satillites in orbit, NASA and the governments would have made it public.

After all we dig up trilobites, don't we?

Ah, yes, but those died and packed and were preserved in special conditions and didn't get wiped out by the first following desaster, stored hidden way under many, many, many layers of rock and ground...

Kinda like there are thse many, many, many, many layers of Ice on Antartica. If the civilliastion was located there - we'd find nothing now, nothing at all, not until we burn through all that ice and burn around on the dirt of the continent itself.

[Damocles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damocles


The Helocene climate of North Africa was one of wide shallow lakes, grasslands and seasonal rainfall. To be honest we don't have good data from that region of the world because nobody has done the crap with the tree rings and the soil cores, seed spore counts, that we've done in Europe and North America.

And that's stated in that site with exactly how much evidence?





The archaeologists worked from background knowledge. With this evidence;


http://www.faiyum.historians.co.uk/html/egypt.html[url]





Quote:


So we know they had grasslands and 1500 years of seasonal rain before they went bonedry about 7000 years ago. Not enough time to erode Mister Sphinx.




Well, if Mr. Sphynx like some say is more like 10,000 - 12,500 years old, it would be 3,000 to 5,500 years, and at a time when the last ice age ended, and there was MUCH more rain.



See above. The Nile like the Mississippi migrates over time all over the place. Including about ten thousand years ago OVER GIZA.


Quote:


Now we have a question. It took some kind of chisel and hammer to carve Mister Sphinx.

Has any remains of tools capable of working that stone Sphinx been uncovered that predates the Old Kingdom? Remember you can use a chisel made of hard obsidian on that soft crumbly stone but the stone tends to splinter and shatter when you strike it with too much force on the stone that forms the head. Wedge cutting is better, when worked with wooden mallets and animal horn or copper tools. When did copper show up?

http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/trades/metals.htm

About 7000 years ago at the earliest.





You wouldn't need hard obsidian, you can use softer stone. Some stones are sharper than our artificial metal tools. They could have been using them. Plus of course, something WIPED them out, virtually COMPLETELY. A natural disaster of immense magnitudes; can easily destroy and wash away tools. And if it IS done by a previous advanced civilization, they probably didn't use hammer and chisel at all.


We would see the evidence geologically. You can't miss that kind of civilization destroying event. The footprint is too big and there are always artifacts-always.


As to the type tools?


1.. The Sphinx shows tool marks.


2, Most hard stones struck either flake or shatter or split along cleave lines.





Quote:


Let us look at the nearest sizaqble groups of Egyptians to Giza circa 7000 Before present.

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/GeogHist/histories/Oldcivilization/Egyptology/Ecological/magf4a.htm

Mostly grain farmers, herders, and fishermen living in villages. This condition persisited for the most part until about 6000 thousand years before today.




Again, stated without evidence. That's their interpretation. Obviously if the Sphynx was carved some 10,000 years ago, there were a civilization there, wiped out beyond nearly all evidence.



We know that there is no footprint of a catastrophe to support this.(See above.)



Quote:


Probably when Thutmoses the fourth put his stupid Sthele between its paws.

Of course you could always buy into the theory that the face was carved to resemble one of these gentlemen:

http://guardians.net/egypt/sphinx/sphinx1.htm

I think that gives an idea that the Sphinx has been dug out at least four times.

http://maps.unomaha.edu/Maher/geo11...adiometric.html

You core drill the rock at selected sites to date the formation date.(Control), then you massspectrograph the surface samples to date the contamination against the core groups. Rock chiselled face is then dated. If you get lucky you find a piece of bone chisel stuck in the sculpture You carbon 14 that.

There are ways to do this. It isn't easy but you can measure the artifact with a lot less guessing than looking at runnels.

Speaking of erosion-waterborne versus windborne; has anyone on this forum ever sandblasted limestone? I am curious if you could describe the difference between wetblasting and dryblasting if you noticed any.




Wait, wait. You're saying that the head WAS recarved even if the Sphynx is young, but you're saying the head will show it was carved first anyhow? Any evidence of the earliest carving would be removed with the recarving, so the Sphynx head would STILL show to be the last carving, not the first either way.



That Sphinx head still has original surface present. You can see this. Look at the face around the broken off nose or the top of the head.



Second if it's recarved, as even you say it is judging by the obvious missmatch in size, then you'd have to do it for not just the head, but all of the Sphynx - you'd get the date of the youngest recarving after all, which has nothing to do with the actual age of the Sphynx, and the first time it was carved.


I said you would sample the whole sphinx, and as I pointed out the silly thing has original carving surface present.


And I would say it's even more guessing. Contamination? The biggest contamination would be our industrial pol[l]ut[a]nts; some of them might very well have removed earlier pollutants. An erosion pattern is an erosion pattern, and if that pattern can't have happened before at least this many years ago, you know it has to be at least that old.


Erosian patterns are subject to force of wear, size of grit, and the frangibility of the material worn. A sandblaster wears rock away in seconds. Wind blown sand takes decades. Water borne sand carried by rain takes CENTURIES.




Finally, radio-dating is rather useless. Unlike 'established' science would like you to believe, radioactive decay is anything but stable, it changes constantly. That's just one problem, but even if it were stable, any radio-dating will only work properly until the last time there was a significant climatologicaly change. With such a change, a difference in radioactive particles in the atmosphere and rock (if it's happened because of a (radioa-active) meteorite impact we'll have no idea about, and the whole dating is hinged on that we know the starting concentration of radioactive to non-radiaoctive decayed material.



True for carbon 14, not triue for potassium/argon dating where the half life is NOT SUBJECT to biological source contamination.or distortion;


[url]http://id-archserve.ucsb.edu/Anth3/Courseware/Chronology/09_Potassium_Argon_Dating.html





Quote:


Originally Posted by jjrakman


But could the climate have been different, perhaps tropical, if the axis of the Earth had changed at some point in antiquity.

The Piri Reis map was drawn 300 years before Antartica was discovered, and was said to be copied from older sources. What's even more unusual about it, is that it shows what the landmass of antartica looks like, under the ice cap. The last period of ice-free Antartic was what, 6000 years ago? What if the original source of the map was drawn at a time when the Earth's axis was different from it's present position, allowing for a warmer climate for Antartica, and thus a tropical climate for Egypt? Is that possible?

They SAY at least 400,000 years since Antartica was last not covered in ice. However, that is based on carbon dating, which is just plain silly. Carbon dating - even if it was totally the way the conventional 'scientists' sy it - is useless beyond 50,000. Of course, in real life if it were scientifically sound it's useless beyond the last major climatological change some 12,500 years ago. In real life though, the dating is ueless all together.

You should read a bit on carbon dates found, it's fantastically laughable. 1600 years here, 1000 years in the next tree over, and another tree a meter further it's 2,000 years, and then they say the samples are 1500 years old nicely in the middle.






Those antartica maps were inventions of fancy;


http://www.strangehorizons.com/2002/20020610/medieval_maps.shtml


Antartica has been under ice;http://www.polar.org/antsun/oldissues2002-2003/Sun111002/dinosaurs-t.html and stuck in place for more than fifteen million years.


Best wishes;

[Damocles]

Not if an asteroid impact did the killing, leaving nothing but a crater and destroyed it all.

We see the crater and the spall. plus the outlying civilization remains or we become extinct. It would have to be a K-T event to obbliterate an Egyptian sized civilization's footprint.


Mines can collapse and disappear. Besides, perhaps they didn't have mines, not the way we do them.

The tailings don't.



Whatever catastrophe would have wiped out an advanced civillization would be devastating. More than enough to destroy cities - or submerge them. End of the Ice Age, water levels rose 120 meters, most cities of ours are near water; they'd all be under water, and probably most of it utterly destroyed. There are quite a few sites around the world under water that people have identified as artificial.

Ships.


Long gone; the little bits remaining we wouldn't recognise.

I recognize worked metal even if it is slagged. Something as big as the helicopter, I would recognize the castings-especially aluminum which is persistent in its worked state.



We didn't always use plastics and ceramics, no reason why they would have used them, or would have used destrcuctable ones. There's always the heat of lava and volcanic eruptions.

Unlikely that a volcanoe as big as Yosemite was active in Egypt(no caldera thirty miles across). They would use aluminum and worked glass and that would survive.(see above.)

Who says they made any? Ever consider the possiblity they were wiser than us, and looked for clean technology? Or perhaps they did pollute, but cleaned up as it started to become unbearable.

You smelt or refine you pollute. Period. That is chemistry.

PLENTY of them around, Atlantis the most famous.

TROY.

Nope, would have decayed and burned up in Earth's atmosphere a long time ago. And of course, that is assuming the even if there WERE satillites in orbit, NASA and the governments would have made it public.

I use a telescope and track satellites. Also geosynchromnous satellites have orbits that last 900,000 years plus and if you look up with a telescope in the night sky you see them.

Ah, yes, but those died and packed and were preserved in special conditions and didn't get wiped out by the first following desaster, stored hidden way under many, many, many layers of rock and ground...

Still dug up weren't they?

Kinda like there are thse many, many, many, many layers of Ice on Antartica. If the civilliastion was located there - we'd find nothing now, nothing at all, not until we burn through all that ice and burn around on the dirt of the continent itself

Ahem, We are digging up buried dinosaurs from under that ice sheet.(see antartica ice citation.)

Best wishes.

[WarMachine]

1. Foundations of buildings.
...Assuming that nothing else currently occupies them...and assuming that we have dug them up; the mud covering the Tigris/Euphrates Basin is pretty deep

2. Mines and their tailings.
...When the British were first moving into Rhodesia in the 19th Century, they used to pay the natives in blankets to show the "the old mines"; Central Africa is riddled with mines that no one is quite sure are how old...

3. Cities.
...Like Mojeno-Daro? Sumer? Ur? How deep is that mud? How deep is the ocean, for that matter, and where, exactly were the coastlines with all that water frozen on the surface?

4. Roads and railroads.
Even though the Romans built extremely durable roads and cities, c.1500 years of decay, neglect and war have largely erased all but the largest and most well-known...

5. Artifacts.(Yes; actual helicopter parts- some of those plastics and ceranics are vitually indestructable by any local natural process short of heat- and you would recognize the slag as manmade.)
...Why the assumption that they would do things in precisely the same way as us? Why assume that you would even recognize a "machine part" as such? Why assume that such parts were not scavenged immediately? Even if they were turned into art?

More importantly, what if I walked up to you and showed you a spark plug that had been dug out of virgin rock? While you might be willing to accept that, mainstream science will write it off as "salt".

Every time.

6. Their environmental pollution.
Define, please? The planet will clean the air by itself, if we were to cease the vast majority of artificial emissions, and the majority of chemicals would be washed out over the inteveneing millenia. Uranium? See the first part of my answer to #5...

7. Word of mouth/legends.
"Ezekial Saw__The Wheel -- WAY Up 'n t' Middle o' the Air!" -- Do I need to even mention the "A" word? Or the "L" word, for that matter?

7. And if they were our equals?

SATELLITES IN ORBIT.
...Which have a nasty habit of degrading their orbits over time, and being exposed to impacts from fast-moving rocks...

Also, have you ever heard of the Brookings Report of 1960? http://www.enterprisemission.com/brooking.html

Trilobite

That is 250 million years DEAD.
And how many existed then? What we are finding are lucky accidents.....

[3DMaster]

Quote:
The archaeologists worked from background knowledge. With this evidence;


http://www.faiyum.historians.co.uk/html/egypt.html[url]

400 bad request.


Quote:


So we know they had grasslands and 1500 years of seasonal rain before they went bonedry about 7000 years ago. Not enough time to erode Mister Sphinx.


See above. The Nile like the Mississippi migrates over time all over the place. Including about ten thousand years ago OVER GIZA. [/qoute]

Above? Above where?


[quote]We would see the evidence geologically. You can't miss that kind of civilization destroying event. The footprint is too big and there are always artifacts-always.

Yes, scientists do, especially if they god blinders on. Look up the book "When The Earth Nearly Died," by DS. Allan and J.B. Delair. Make no mistake, their ultimate cause of the catclysm is wrong, the evidence they name is very real. Scientists have been going with a dogmatic view that nothing ever really happened to this Earth in recent times, and completely ignore evidence, anomalous data, and sometimes even show ridiculous bounds of logic in order to make it fit with the prevalant dogma.


We know that there is no footprint of a catastrophe to support this.(See above.)

Oh, yes there is.


That Sphinx head still has original surface present. You can see this. Look at the face around the broken off nose or the top of the head.

Around the broken off nose? pretty much the entire nose would be one of the major recarvings, there'd be NOTHING left of the original face around area. Top of the head is also impossible. The head is MUCH to small for the body. There'd have be about a meter or so more rock above it to get the proper height of the head. Again, the top would have NOTHING left of the original head.

I said you would sample the whole sphinx, and as I pointed out the silly thing has original carving surface present.

Not on the head.

Erosian patterns are subject to force of wear, size of grit, and the frangibility of the material worn. A sandblaster wears rock away in seconds. Wind blown sand takes decades. Water borne sand carried by rain takes CENTURIES.

Which has what to do with anything?

Those antartica maps were inventions of fancy;


[url]http://www.strangehorizons.com/2002/20020610/medieval_maps.shtml

Ooh! I like that site - the classic example of a debunking site, the worth of which is: bullshit.

The recipe;

Tirst one establishes that you know nothing, but I know everything.

Then I give a string of facts that barely has anything to do with the subject, and places them in enough of a form that appears as you never knew it, I do, and it is such important information.

Thus you have just read through a shitload of useless information and facts, not relevent to the topic but might give the reader the impression that one has been part of an large piece discussing the subject at hand.

Then I come to the actual subject at hand, and dismiss it in a few lines and some vague claims without ever bothering to coroborate those claims with evidence, or bother to discuss the ENTIRE subject, only taking one tiny thing of it, and through that say the entire subject is thus no relevant.

Thus anyone who doesn't look very closely just thought he read exactly how thinks really are, and go back to his normal life happily knowing that the superior science guy has provided all the mundane answers.

:rolleyes:

The little site fails to address that the map is drawn over from much OLDER maps, for one thing dating before 1492. The map still carries a very accurate depiction of the Americas which everyone thought didn't exist at the time, also an accurate depiction of greenland beneath the ice, including where the mountain ranges are. Nice site, but useless.

Antartica has been under ice;http://www.polar.org/antsun/oldissues2002-2003/Sun111002/dinosaurs-t.html and stuck in place for more than fifteen million years.


Best wishes;


Ah, well, problem with Antartica dating is very simply, bad science, upon adhering to a wrong paradigm (or should I say relgious view), compounded by several more bad practices.

[3DMaster]

We see the crater and the spall. plus the outlying civilization remains or we become extinct. It would have to be a K-T event to obbliterate an Egyptian sized civilization's footprint.

A hyper-dimensional event actually: where heading to another one; reversing of the north and south pole, is according to conventional science a few 1000 years late, according to HD physics it's right on scedule, somewhere in the next century or two it should come.



The tailings don't.

Even they can decay. Plus, if an scientist would find it now, do you think he'd 'date' the mine as somewhere in the past 5,000 years or much earlier? Even if it's earlier?


Ships.

Huh?


I recognize worked metal even if it is slagged. Something as big as the helicopter, I would recognize the castings-especially aluminum which is persistent in its worked state.

There wouldn't be anything left of a helicopter. And you would, archeologists don't. Archeologists are only trained to recognize pottery and such; after all there was no advanced technology in the past, so you don't need to recognize it. Even if they'd recognize it, they'd just toss it away on the garbage as modern contamination.

Unlikely that a volcanoe as big as Yosemite was active in Egypt(no caldera thirty miles across). They would use aluminum and worked glass and that would survive.(see above.)

Not Egypt. There are other places on the world.

You smelt or refine you pollute. Period. That is chemistry.

Which will be cleaned up by the Earth, can be cleaned up by us if we put our minds to it.

TROY.

No.

I use a telescope and track satellites. Also geosynchromnous satellites have orbits that last 900,000 years plus and if you look up with a telescope in the night sky you see them.

You may track satellites, but can you see from here if it's one of ours or one that's been there for 10,000 years?

900,00 years providing their guidance system and correctional rockets stay intact all those years. With micro meteorites flying about; I'd say none of our satellites stay in orbit for even a mere 1,000 years.


Still dug up weren't they?

Yes, but they are expected, no archeologist or paleontologist will toss them away as modern contamination.

Ahem, We are digging up buried dinosaurs from under that ice sheet.(see antartica ice citation.)

Best wishes.

No, we are not. At high altitudes: as in in the mountains where ice is much, much, much thinner perhaps. We however do not drill and dig down kilometers and kilometers of ice, big enough to let a human through, and have the means to getting them down and back. And would there be cities on the mountain tops? Don't think so, they'd be down below.

[3DMaster]

^^Weird. A large piece of damocles post doesn't show, and the answers I gave to those sections don't show up two posts up either. You'd have to push the 'quote' button to read it.

[jjrakman]

1. Foundations of buildings.
2. Mines and their tailings.
3. Cities.
4. Roads and railroads.
5. Artifacts.(Yes; actual helicopter parts- some of those plastics and ceranics are vitually indestructable by any local natural process short of heat- and you would recognize the slag as manmade.)
6. Their environmental pollution.
7. Word of mouth/legends.
7. And if they were our equals?

SATELLITES IN ORBIT.

After all we dig up trilobites, don't we?

If there were sucg a catastrophe, I would tend to think it would have been on such a scale so as to unimaginable. More than a simple meteor shower or asteroid, probably something more on the scale of a planetoid. As far as #7, there's legends of an ancient catastrophe and a prior high tech civilization, ala a "Golden Age" from just about eery ancient and primitive culture around the world. The Biblical Deluge is one. Atlantis is another. The Hopi have some interesting tales, and ther are many many others.

But here we have an additional problem if the proposed catastrophe were so complete and widespread, much of what is now above land may have been under water, and vice versa. Underwater archaeology is just beginning to uncover some interesting things.

Having said that, Forbidden Archeology does present some interesting artifacts that deserve close attention.

Antartica has been under ice;http://www.polar.org/antsun/oldissu...inosaurs-t.html and stuck in place for more than fifteen million years.

Yes, the article states this, but it doesn't really state how they knows it. all they state is how they know that Antartica was once warmer. Unless I missed something?

[Damocles]

A hyper-dimensional event actually: where heading to another one; reversing of the north and south pole, is according to conventional science a few 1000 years late, according to HD physics it's right on scedule, somewhere in the next century or two it should come.

Don't confuse magnetic pole transposition with new age theories. The Earth flips magnetic polarity routinely about every half million years. We see that in the polarity of magnetic ores that we find striated as a result of vulcanism.



Even they can decay. Plus, if an scientist would find it now, do you think he'd 'date' the mine as somewhere in the past 5,000 years or much earlier? Even if it's earlier?

The tailings do not. They just distribute across the landscape as rubble. its worked rock. You can see this.

Huh?

Civilizations equal to ours build ships. Those sink. We'd find them. We find Roman ones, even Egyptian ones.

There wouldn't be anything left of a helicopter. And you would, archeologists don't. Archeologists are only trained to recognize pottery and such; after all there was no advanced technology in the past, so you don't need to recognize it. Even if they'd recognize it, they'd just toss it away on the garbage as modern contamination.

A lump of cast aviation grade aluminum that was a swash plate is as big as a man's torso and I don't need to be an aviation engineer or an industrial contractor to identify hinge points or load bearing pintles.


Not Egypt. There are other places on the world.

http://www.geo.mtu.edu/volcanoes/world.html

Likelyy candidates;

-Western United States
-Central America
-Eastern Aegean
-Italy
-Japan
All other areas lack the resources for a civilization of the first rank and the big fat volcanoe nearby to wipe it out. No footprint of minimg riverine pollution or metal working exists that are in those areas 11,000 years before present.

Which will be cleaned up by the Earth, can be cleaned up by us if we put our minds to it.

Heavy metal poisons take tens of thousands of year to leach out of mine tailings. There will be pitchblend contamination in the Nigerian and Alberta mines' tailings long after the sun bloats to red giant stage.

No.

THERA, then. But TROY was real. It bis mentioned as a Hitite client state and ally.

You may track satellites, but can you see from here if it's one of ours or one that's been there for 10,000 years?

Why not? With a three inch(75 mm) reflector you can tell the difference between Russian and American. Alien would be alien and you would know it immediately. It would look WRONG.

900,000 years providing their guidance system and correctional rockets stay intact all those years. With micro meteorites flying about; I'd say none of our satellites stay in orbit for even a mere 1,000 years.

You need to check your micrometeor population statistics(one collision a century by a grain of sand) and satellite orbital decay mechanics. A Geo satellite out of fuel tumbles. That is all. It doesn't spiral in. That is the point of sticking it out so far; so that it is in stable orbit whose rate of advance is synchronous with the rotation of the Earth.

Yes, but they are expected, no archeologist or paleontologist will toss them away as modern contamination.

Nor would an archaeologist throw away the Baghdad battery or a helicopter swash plate.

No, we are not. At high altitudes: as in in the mountains where ice is much, much, much thinner perhaps. We however do not drill and dig down kilometers and kilometers of ice, big enough to let a human through, and have the means to getting them down and back. And would there be cities on the mountain tops?(D. edit) Don't think so, they'd be down below.

Cuzco, Denver.

The dinos were under the permafrost. And the civlization if it were as omnipresent as our own would leave their trash everywhere. If it is there, we will find it.

ADDENDUM

Map debunking;
http://www.intersurf.com/~chalcedony/FOG4.html

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/Piri_Reis/PiriReis_eng.htm

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/Piri_Reis/Buache_eng.htm

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/Piri_Reis/Atlantide.htm (You need Italian for this, sorry. D.)

Dating from antartic ice drilled cores.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html

Best wishes.

[WarMachine]

I am en route to bed, but I wanted to answer a couple of these.....

Civilizations equal to ours build ships. Those sink. We'd find them. We find Roman ones, even Egyptian ones.
....Sure -- usually, as in almost always, by sheer accident. The vast majority of manmade ships exist in what amounts to a sea of solvent. Even the steel-hulls under Truk lagoon will vanish in c.1000yrs; we might be able to find them if we know what we're looking for, but even that's a stretch....


A lump of cast aviation grade aluminum that was a swash plate is as big as a man's torso and I don't need to be an aviation engineer or an industrial contractor to identify hinge points or load bearing pintles.
That's not the point. The fact that you would look at it and know what it is automatically marks it as site-contamination for an archeologist...and no matter how hard you argure that test 'X' places it's construction at 13000BC, the archeologist will pat you on the head, and tell you that the very science that he relies on to date his material is flatly wrong when it comes to your swash plate -- because, as a certain curator once said, "...What are you left with? You have Culture A -- Culture B -- and nothing in between. Where's the link?"...assuming that the unwashed peasants will never once question whether Culture B might actually be Culture G......


THERA, then. But TROY was real. It bis mentioned as a Hitite client state and ally.
Not sure of your point, here. Everyone assumed that stories of El Dorado were fables, until air-surveys of the Amazon basin confirmed a far higher population count - complete with a massive road and canal network - than anyone previously believed....


Nor would an archaeologist throw away the Baghdad battery or a helicopter swash plate.
Oh, that's not true at all...The only reason the Baghdad Battery didn't get tossed in the trash at Square One was that it didn't have Duracell® printed on it; in fact, IIRC, archeologists couldn't figure out what it was -- it took an electrical engineer with an archeology hobby working in the British Museum to figure it out...They hadn't even run a simple chemical analysis on their samples, which would have revealed the acids...Also, remember the Antikthera[sp?] Mechanism - now proven to be part of the gearing of a highly advanced astrolabe[sp?], c.1800yrs old - was nearly tossed as salt.....

[Damocles]

I am en route to bed, but I wanted to answer a couple of these.....


....Sure -- usually, as in almost always, by sheer accident. The vast majority of manmade ships exist in what amounts to a sea of solvent. Even the steel-hulls under Truk lagoon will vanish in c.1000yrs; we might be able to find them if we know what we're looking for, but even that's a stretch....

1. Seapower is seapower. You understand that, you go where the ocean chokepoints and the sheltered anchorages are. You dive for wrecks there as that is where the storms and naval battles sink ships.


That's not the point. The fact that you would look at it and know what it is automatically marks it as site-contamination for an archeologist...and no matter how hard you argure that test 'X' places it's construction at 13000BC, the archeologist will pat you on the head, and tell you that the very science that he relies on to date his material is flatly wrong when it comes to your swash plate -- because, as a certain curator once said, "...What are you left with? You have Culture A -- Culture B -- and nothing in between. Where's the link?"...assuming that the unwashed peasants will never once question whether Culture B might actually be Culture G......

2. Refer back to what I said about satellites previously? The gonzo archaeologist might not know it is a helicopter swash plate; but he would know it was a forged casting and he would ask me. Then I would talk to a metallurgist buddy of mine and he would test it for composition. That would tell us;
-a Is it cast the way we would do it? There are several methods for doing this-(American and European methods differ significantly.) Something he wouldn't recognize(or I wouldn't recognize fot that matter as a contemporary working process) would immediately give greater emphasis to b.
-b What is its composition?
http://www.efunda.com/materials/alloys/aluminum/properties.cfm
Anything that doesn't fall into that range will set the alarm bells off, not only in archaeology; but, across all scientific disciplines. Dating that swash plate would be the first thing we would desperately attempt. And it would be only the first question we would ask. That poor archaeologist would be snowed under by the avalanch of investigators that swarmed him for information as to what he did to find the artifact, and asking him how could he be so stupid as to SCREW the dig up.

Not sure of your point, here. Everyone assumed that stories of El Dorado were fables, until air-surveys of the Amazon basin confirmed a far higher population count - complete with a massive road and canal network - than anyone previously believed....

My point is that what we regard as myth is often mis-interpreted legend.

THERA=Atlantis?

Oh, that's not true at all...The only reason the Baghdad Battery didn't get tossed in the trash at Square One was that it didn't have Duracell® printed on it; in fact, IIRC, archeologists couldn't figure out what it was -- it took an electrical engineer with an archeology hobby working in the British Museum to figure it out...They hadn't even run a simple chemical analysis on their samples, which would have revealed the acids...Also, remember the Antikthera[sp?] Mechanism - now proven to be part of the gearing of a highly advanced astrolabe[sp?], c.1800yrs old - was nearly tossed as salt.....

Those artifacts turned up and were correctly analyzed despite the long odds aginst that happening . Oddly enough the Baghdad Battery was recovered from a pottery dump, so I guess you could say it was thrown out with the trash.

As for the Antikythera Astrolabe?

http://www.math.sunysb.edu/~tony/whatsnew/column/antikytheraI-0400/kyth1.html (http://)

Surprise! It was recovered from a sunken ship!

Think of that bronze mechanical ballistic computer aboard the U.S.S. Chicago under similar conditions.

Bronze is less corrosive than steel.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/04029.htm

Now I know that steel corrodes, but there will be gun barrels and barbette housings left of the Arizona for millenia as well as for

Repulse
Prince of Wales
Hood
Bismarck
Scharnhorst
Musashi
Hiei
Kirishima
and those wrecks
Akagi
Soryu
Hiryui
Kaga
are just chock full of bronze and aluminum artifacts as well as steel ones.

Just off the top of my head there is enough sunk shipping within the last hundred years(37 million tons) to keep divers busy for that ten thousand years you extrapolate.

Any ancient civilization that leaves that kind of footprint is going to be obvious if for nothing else for all the wrecks that screw up navigation by magnetic compass.

Somebody would dive to see what was down there throwing off magnetic north!

[3DMaster]

Don't confuse magnetic pole transposition with new age theories. The Earth flips magnetic polarity routinely about every half million years. We see that in the polarity of magnetic ores that we find striated as a result of vulcanism.

:rolleyes: HD physics is not new age theories. The Earth flips magnetic polarity routinely estimated every 50,000 years or so according to observations, it's been some 53,000 (hence being late). Suprirse suprise, 53,000+ years is exactly twice the prescessional(sp?) cycle of the Earth.

The tailings do not. They just distribute across the landscape as rubble. its worked rock. You can see this.

And will erode and be reused, and tugged aside and chucked when they're in the way of the next set of people. They will be covered up by new sediments; and unless you're expecting a mine 11,000 years ago, Scientists won't see it, and if they do will just ignore it, because reporting that the rest will call you stupid and goodbye reputation and job. Science these days isn't all that scientifiic, it's more religion than anything else.

Civilizations equal to ours build ships. Those sink. We'd find them. We find Roman ones, even Egyptian ones.

Oh, sure, doesn't mean that those who find them will consider them 10,000 years old, not unless some identifying markings weren't withered away that looked NOTHING like any known civilization, and even then they won't give it the proper age.

A lump of cast aviation grade aluminum that was a swash plate is as big as a man's torso and I don't need to be an aviation engineer or an industrial contractor to identify hinge points or load bearing pintles.

But archeologists wtill won't call it what it is AND date it to the right time. If an archeologist claims he found part of a plane fuselage dated 10,000 years ago, he's out of a job the next day.

http://www.geo.mtu.edu/volcanoes/world.html

Likelyy candidates;

-Western United States
-Central America
-Eastern Aegean
-Italy
-Japan
All other areas lack the resources for a civilization of the first rank and the big fat volcanoe nearby to wipe it out. No footprint of minimg riverine pollution or metal working exists that are in those areas 11,000 years before present.

Say the archeologists.

Heavy metal poisons take tens of thousands of year to leach out of mine tailings. There will be pitchblend contamination in the Nigerian and Alberta mines' tailings long after the sun bloats to red giant stage.

Doesn't mean they'll date the mine to the right time, especially not if other humans went back in there later on; also providing the civilization LEFT heavy metals. If they were advance, they may very well have found a much more efficient way to mine, removing ALL of it where they mined.

THERA, then. But TROY was real. It bis mentioned as a Hitite client state and ally.

Of course Thera and Troy were real, they just aren't Atlantis.

Why not? With a three inch(75 mm) reflector you can tell the difference between Russian and American. Alien would be alien and you would know it immediately. It would look WRONG.

Possibly. Not that any official scientists will ever acknowledge a non-human satellite in Earth orbit. An amateur reporting it, they will dismiss, and construct some stupid reason why he's so very wrong, and he couldn't possibly know it, and then point to a few things claiming that proves it's Amreican/Russion/Chinese/whatever. Of course, you, and those with their eyes and minds open will shake their head at the ridiculous claims and debunking stories (see the one up there, they'll follow the same recipe) and all those with closed minds or not quite having the knowledge and logic circuitry to see through the bullfelgercarb will nod, and say, "See, from us after all, the great oracles of science have spoken." Thus to everyone, officially, it will be whatever nationality they assigned it to, even decades down the line, unless they're lies have finally started to crack under the pressure.

You need to check your micrometeor population statistics(one collision a century by a grain of sand) and satellite orbital decay mechanics. A Geo satellite out of fuel tumbles. That is all. It doesn't spiral in. That is the point of sticking it out so far; so that it is in stable orbit whose rate of advance is synchronous with the rotation of the Earth.

And how many satellites are there clustered together again? Plus of course, an impact may have the opposite reaction: send it flying away from the Earth.

Nor would an archaeologist throw away the Baghdad battery or a helicopter swash plate.

Oh, yes, they will! If they claim they found an ancient highly advance technological piece, they will be out of a job before the week is over, possibly the next day. So unless you've got a REALLY integral one who's willing to take on the fight and lose his job and reputation over it, he/she will toss it as fast as he/she can - dismissing it as modern contamination, a helicopter crash that came deep enough. Should he/she be integral of course, the established archeology will remove her reputation, ridicule her, and any and allo of her claims will NEVER be published, unless it's in non mainstream vehicles where they have their eyes open. Of course, these non mainstream vehicles have the reputation of being run by crackpots, and any claims given there will be ignored or if it becomes well known enough, debunked - again, see the recipe above. Thus once more established science will prevail.


Cuzco, Denver.

The exception that states the rule, and it still isn't on the actual tips of the mountains.

The dinos were under the permafrost. And the civlization if it were as omnipresent as our own would leave their trash everywhere. If it is there, we will find it.

Not the kilometers thick permafrost they aren't, we never went to the bottom, we can't do it - not big enough to be able to do archeology/paleontology on the ground below. And who said the civilization was omnipresent? A closed of, paranoid culture wouldn't be omnipresent, they'd stay far away from the rest of the world.

ADDENDUM

Map debunking;
http://www.intersurf.com/~chalcedony/FOG4.html

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/Piri_Reis/PiriReis_eng.htm

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/Piri_Reis/Buache_eng.htm

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/Piri_Reis/Atlantide.htm (You need Italian for this, sorry. D.)

Dating from antartic ice drilled cores.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html

Best wishes.

"Debunking". Yep, you think I'm going to bother with a 'debunking'? A debunking is never a serious discussion, it's just some rhetoric to dismiss something and keep the masses content in knowing scientists are great, don't make mistakes and already know everything.

And the ice cores site, all I can say is BWAHAHAHAHA! There are so many logical fallacies in that it isn't even funny. "To maintain the age for the Earth of 50,000 years." Are you kidding me? This sounds more like a creationist nutcase. "No catastrophic things happening in that time." No, of course not, that's why there were mass extinctions, and I suppose and Ice Age isn't catastrophic. :shakes head:

1. Seapower is seapower. You understand that, you go where the ocean chokepoints and the sheltered anchorages are. You dive for wrecks there as that is where the storms and naval battles sink ships.

:rolleyes: Water level were 120 meters lower then, different climate, completely different topology. We don't know where the chokepoints were back then.

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by Damocles


Don't confuse magnetic pole transposition with new age theories. The Earth flips magnetic polarity routinely about every half million years. We see that in the polarity of magnetic ores that we find striated as a result of vulcanism.


Rebuttal;




HD physics is not new age theories. The Earth flips magnetic polarity routinely estimated every 50,000 years or so according to observations, it's been some 53,000 (hence being late). Suprirse suprise, 53,000+ years is exactly twice the prescessional(sp?) cycle of the Earth.


No correlation between precession and flipping of poles. The average is 500,000 years between flips, but the interval is variable;





http://www.psc.edu/science/Glatzmaier/glatzmaier.html


Considering that ships, planes and Boy Scouts steer by it, Earth's magnetic field is less reliable than you'd think. Rocks in an ancient lava flow in Oregon suggest that for a brief erratic span about 16 million years ago magnetic north shifted as much as 6 degrees per day. After little more than a week, a compass needle would have pointed toward Mexico City.


The lava catches Earth's magnetic field in the act of reversing itself. Magnetic north heads south, and -- over about 1,000 years -- the field does a complete flip-flop. While the Oregon data is controversial, Earth scientists agree that the geological evidence as a whole -- the "paleomagnetic" record -- proves such reversals happened many times over the past billion years.


"Some reversals occurred within a few 10,000 years of each other," says Los Alamos scientist Gary Glatzmaier, "and there are other periods where no reversals occurred for tens of millions of years." How do these flip-flops happen, and why at such irregular intervals? The geological data, invaluable to show what happened, registers only a mute shrug when it comes to the deeper questions.
Now for the mines;





Quote:by damocles


The tailings do not. They just distribute across the landscape as rubble. Its worked rock. You can see this.



Rebuttal;



And will erode and be reused, and tugged aside and chucked when they're in the way of the next set of people. They will be covered up by new sediments; and unless you're expecting a mine 11,000 years ago, Scientists won't see it, and if they do will just ignore it, because reporting that the rest will call you stupid and goodbye reputation and job. Science these days isn't all that scientifiic, it's more religion than anything else.


Some of those Spanish Jesuits who followed Cortez into Mexico noticed something. Where did the Aztecs get all their copper?





http://www.exploringthenorth.com/cophistory/cophist.html


A Short History of Copper Mining

Copper was first mined in this area by an ancient vanished race between 5,000 and 1,200 bc. These miners left no burial grounds, dwellings, pottery, clay tablets or cave drawings. What was left behind was thousands of copper producing pits and more thousands of crude hammering stones with which the pits had been worked. The ancients apparently worked the copper bearing rock by alternately using fire and cold water, to break the copper ore into smaller pieces from which they could extract the metal with hand held hammering stones or stone hatchets. With this copper, they made tools.


Scientists and engineers estimate that it would have required 10,000 men 1,000 years to develop the extensive operations carried on throughout the region. It is estimated that 1.5 billion pounds of copper were mined by these unknown people.

The pure copper of Lake Superior has been discovered in prehistoric cultures throughout North and South America.

The mystery of their origin remains unsolved. The mystery of their disappearance remains unsolved.


Mine tailings and debris plus compositional analysis of dugup artifacts led the archaeologists back to the Michigan and Wisconsin mines..





Quote:


Civilizations equal to ours build ships. Those sink. We'd find them. We find Roman ones, even Egyptian ones.



Refutation



Oh, sure, doesn't mean that those who find them will consider them 10,000 years old, not unless some identifying markings weren't withered away that looked NOTHING like any known civilization, and even then they won't give it the proper age.


Evidence for which I would look to date worked alloy.

1. Pitting
2. Corrosion
3. Wear.

Evidence to date the sunken wreck
4. Coral buidup.
5. Silting.
6. Barnacles.
7. Fish.



Quote:

A lump of cast aviation grade aluminum that was a swash plate is as big as a man's torso and I don't need to be an aviation engineer or an industrial contractor to identify hinge points or load bearing pintles.

Refutation;


But archeologists still won't call it what it is AND date it to the right time. If an archeologist claims he found part of a plane fuselage dated 10,000 years ago, he's out of a job the next day.



I don't expect the archaeologist to know what it is, but if he finds a swash plate buried with King Lugalzagesi of Umma , the first king to unite ancient Sumeria, he's going to be looking at this:

http://www.thaitechnics.com/helicopter/tg5/swash_plate2.jpg

Now he will have to know that it is part of a modified clutch plate system of some version; if he ever worked on a car or reciprocating engine of any type.


-------------------End of Part 1

[Damocles]

Now for sites that could harbor a civilization;





Quote:


http://www.geo.mtu.edu/volcanoes/world.html

Likelyy candidates;

-Western United States
-Central America
-Eastern Aegean
-Italy
-Japan
All other areas lack the resources for a civilization of the first rank and the big fat volcanoe nearby to wipe it out. No footprint of minimg riverine pollution or metal working exists that are in those areas 11,000 years before present.



Refutation;



Say the archeologists.






There is a problem. Again the archaeologists may be ignorant, but geologists minerologists, minimg engineers, and average contractors(me)? We are not





http://speclab.cr.usgs.gov/maps.html.


Materials Maps


http://speclab.cr.usgs.gov


One of the end products of the Spectroscopy Lab's research is materials maps. The new field of imaging spectroscopy allows specific absorption features, caused by chemical bonds in materials, to be mapped spatially. Materials maps are of minerals, mineral mixtures, vegetation (including species/communities and vegetation communities maps), water, ice and snow, atmospheric gases, environmental materials, and man-made materials.





You can use those survey maps and other means to plot resource availability and using our civilization as a benchmark you can make a one magnitude of error guess as to the evidence that a past civilization will leave behind in their mining efforts. That raw ore gets worked at the mine as much as you can(to save transportation costs in moving unneeded rock) so you would expect local smelting and grinding of extracted mine material to get at the desired ore.


Now about those mine tailings?





Quote:


Heavy metal poisons take tens of thousands of year to leach out of mine tailings. There will be pitchblend contamination in the Nigerian and Alberta mines' tailings long after the sun bloats to red giant stage.



Refutartion;



Doesn't mean they'll date the mine to the right time, especially not if other humans went back in there later on; also providing the civilization LEFT heavy metals. If they were advanced, they may very well have found a much more efficient way to mine, removing ALL of it where they mined.



(See above about the tailings; i.e. the Michigan copper mines-5000 years active?)


Dating the mine is based on guess work if you have incompetents examining the tailings. But if you examine the worked metal for wear use and use isotope dating to date the forging? Metallurgists are very good at doing this.


Now about the legends;





Quote:


THERA, then. But TROY was real. It bis mentioned as a Hitite client state and ally.


Refutation;

Of course Thera and Troy were real, they just aren't Atlantis


Maybe;





http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/thera/thera.html


Summary; it describes the event creditted with the downfall of Minoan civilization(Crete). That would be a fair legendary beginning.for the Atlantis myth.


Satellites;





Quote:


Why not? With a three inch(75 mm) reflector you can tell the difference between Russian and American. Alien would be alien and you would know it immediately. It would look WRONG.


Refutation;




Possibly. Not that any official scientists will ever acknowledge a non-human satellite in Earth orbit. An amateur reporting it, they will dismiss, and construct some stupid reason why he's so very wrong, and he couldn't possibly know it, and then point to a few things claiming that proves it's Amreican/Russion/Chinese/whatever. Of course, you, and those with their eyes and minds open will shake their head at the ridiculous claims and debunking stories (see the one up there, they'll follow the same recipe) and all those with closed minds or not quite having the knowledge and logic circuitry to see through the bullfelgercarb will nod, and say, "See, from us after all, the great oracles of science have spoken." Thus to everyone, officially, it will be whatever nationality they assigned it to, even decades down the line, unless they're lies have finally started to crack under the pressure.



You cannot hide this stuff. A guy who works in a machine shop who models spacecraft on the side will notice gross predelictions used by Russians (spherical shapes and cubes) and Americans;(rectangles and cylinders, with your occasional cone and a style I can best describe as a tinker toy approach.). Chinese follow the Russian tradition, while those who studied the American school tend to build to the American pattern(ESA).

More on satellites;





Quote:


You need to check your micrometeor population statistics(one collision a century by a grain of sand) and satellite orbital decay mechanics. A Geo satellite out of fuel tumbles. That is all. It doesn't spiral in. That is the point of sticking it out so far; so that it is in stable orbit whose rate of advance is synchronous with the rotation of the Earth.



Refutation;



And how many satellites are there clustered together again? Plus of course, an impact may have the opposite reaction: send it flying away from the Earth.


The actual number of satellites is less thaqn ten thousand;


http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2004/VadimBlikshteyn.shtml

I would also point out to you that a micro-meteorite impact on a satellite will either pierce it like a bullet or crater the satellite if it doesn't penetrate or shatter the satellite into fragments. It will not affect the orbit much even if the satellite is a debris field after impact. It, the satellite doesn't fall in It alters its orbital path (slightly) somewhat. The kinetic energy of mass isn't there to cause an infall(1 kg at 60,000 mps to deplace a solid 250 kg object to a new orbit) No infalling 1 kg object from the Oort cloud picks up enough potential energy from solar infall to attain that velocity.


Now about the Baghdad Battery



Quote:

Nor would an archaeologist throw away the Baghdad battery or a helicopter swash plate.

Refutation;



Oh, yes, they will! If they claim they found an ancient highly advance technological piece, they will be out of a job before the week is over, possibly the next day. So unless you've got a REALLY integral one who's willing to take on the fight and lose his job and reputation over it, he/she will toss it as fast as he/she can - dismissing it as modern contamination, a helicopter crash that came deep enough. Should he/she be integral of course, the established archeology will remove her reputation, ridicule her, and any and allo of her claims will NEVER be published, unless it's in non mainstream vehicles where they have their eyes open. Of course, these non mainstream vehicles have the reputation of being run by crackpots, and any claims given there will be ignored or if it becomes well known enough, debunked - again, see the recipe above. Thus once more established science will prevail.

All I can say is that reputable archaeologists by that logic should have refuted the notion that the Aztecs and the Incas were on the verge of becoming bronze age cultures or that North American native peoples used copper knives, needles, arrow tips, jewelry, and spear tips.(See above; what did they do with 1.5 million tons of mined ore?)
------------------------------------End of Part 2

[Damocles]

High altitude cities;





Quote:


Cuzco, Denver.


Refutation;





The exception that states the rule, and it still isn't on the actual tips of the mountains.


Humans build cities on ledges and plateaus. If I'm looking for fortresses and looking for our equals, then I am looking for missile silos. Only primitives build prominent gunfire targets(castles) on top of hills.


Now for trash in Antartica;





Quote:


The dinos were under the permafrost. And the civlization if it were as omnipresent as our own would leave their trash everywhere. If it is there, we will find it.



Refutation;



Not the kilometers thick permafrost they aren't, we never went to the bottom, we can't do it - not big enough to be able to do archeology/paleontology on the ground below. And who said the civilization was omnipresent? A closed of, paranoid culture wouldn't be omnipresent, they'd stay far away from the rest of the world.


Okay?


If they build helicopters they will need; iron, aluminum , chromium , manganese, zinc, manganese, magnesium, etc.


Go here to see where you dig this stuff up;


http://www.faqs.org/docs/factbook/fields/2111.html


You will not find everything you need in an Egypt sized area ANYWHERE on Earth.



Now for debunking;


Quote:


ADDENDUM




Map debunking;
http://www.intersurf.com/~chalcedony/FOG4.html

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/...iriReis_eng.htm

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/.../Buache_eng.htm

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dicuoghi/...s/Atlantide.htm (You need Italian for this, sorry. D.)

Dating from antartic ice drilled cores.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html




Refutation;




"Debunking". Yep, you think I'm going to bother with a 'debunking'? A debunking is never a serious discussion, it's just some rhetoric to dismiss something and keep the masses content in knowing scientists are great, don't make mistakes and already know everything.

And the ice cores site, all I can say is BWAHAHAHAHA! There are so many logical fallacies in that it isn't even funny. "To maintain the age for the Earth of 50,000 years." Are you kidding me? This sounds more like a creationist nutcase. "No catastrophic things happening in that time." No, of course not, that's why there were mass extinctions, and I suppose and Ice Age isn't catastrophic. :shakes head:





No vulcanism and no meteor impact of a Yellowstone/K-T event magnitude in the last fifty thousand years is fair enough.. Ice core gas analysis is quite a valid measurement as is the seep content analysis. What problem do youy have with this? Also where do you get 50,000 years before present? My reading was a minimum of 150,000 years ice deposition for the Vostok core.



http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html


Minimum Age of the Earth


From the data gathered from the Vostok ice-core indicates that the minimum age of the earth is 160,000 +- 15,000 years. Furthermore there exists approximately 33% of additional ice below the core sample which would hold a disproportionate number of years due to thinning of the ice layers under the tremendous pressure of the ice above it.


To maintain an age for the earth of 50,000 years, one would need to describe a mechanism that allows more than 2 false ice layers to form per year. It should be noted that one also needs to describe why this mechanism has ceased to function in historic times since the Vostok ice-core demonstrates a number of the historically recorded volcanism at the correct periods of time.


ADDITION: "To the list of things excluded, you can add miles-high tides or floods. (Velikovsky and the Noachian deluge). Such a mass of water would have provided sufficient buoyancy to float the polar caps off their beds. No way to drop them exactly back onto their original location, or to regrow them. (In fact, the Greenland ice cap would not regrow under modern (last 10 ky) climatic conditions.)" --Bob Grumbine rmg3@psuvm.psu.edu


Worlds in Collision


The Vostok ice-core shows no effects of catastrophic geological changes. By this I mean no petroleum, no vermin, no weird Venus gasses, no red snow, no manna in amongst the layers. Also no evidence for rapid rotational changes in the earth, no floods, no major asteroid bombardments. Finally, there is absolutely positively fur-darn-tootin no evidence of the earth ever having occupied any position in the solar system other than that which it holds now.



That was in direct refutation of the Veliskovsky displaced Earth orbit hypothesis.


http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/people/modern_era/veli.html


Now about hunting sunken ships;





Quote:


Originally Posted by Damocles


1. Seapower is seapower. You understand that, you go where the ocean chokepoints and the sheltered anchorages are. You dive for wrecks there as that is where the storms and naval battles sink ships.



Refutation;



Water level were 120 meters lower then, different climate, completely different topology. We don't know where the chokepoints were back then.


Ahem;


http://photos5.flickr.com/5141539_80166f5001.jpg


Geography doesn't change that much in ten thousand years nor do Ocean levels (125 meters higher after the last ice age melt.) do not significantly affect the straits of Gibraltar or the Straits of Hormuz. A planet locked in an ice age has humongous hurricanes.(Heat differentials is quite pronounced between equator and poles- perfect condition for giant coriolis storms.Anybody stupid enough to sail those oceans outside the temperate zones is asking to be sunk. Likely wreck sites;


-Western Indian ocean


-Eastern North America Atlantic including the Hatteras Capes to Newfoundland coasts.


-Carribean


-Mediterranean basin


-Western Pacific including the Japanese and Philipine Island groups.


Follow the currents and the winds, Where they swirl and where the coastal inlets provide shelter you find ships. That is applied seapower. Where the sailors wrecked on the rocks or fought that is mis-applied seapower, and we know where to look for this .


Best wishes;

[jjrakman]

Only one thing can be for certain. No Cylons were raped in the building of the Pyramids. ;)

[3DMaster]

Rebuttal;
No correlation between precession and flipping of poles. The average is 500,000 years between flips, but the interval is variable;

According to 'established' science. You don't actually think I accept much if anything at all from those hacks and outright fraudeurs and priests, do you? And the average is 50,000 years, which is one of the very few things that does come from the lot of them.

[Damocles]

According to 'established' science. You don't actually think I accept much if anything at all from those hacks and outright fraudeurs and priests, do you? And the average is 50,000 years, which is one of the very few things that does come from the lot of them.

Huh?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0909_040909_earthmagfield.html

According to Earth's geologic record, our planet's magnetic field flips, on average, about once every 200,000 years. The time between reversals varies widely, however. The last time Earth's magnetic field flipped was about 780,000 years ago.


"We hear the magnetic field today looks like it is decreasing and might reverse. What we don't hear is it is on a time scale of thousands of years," Glatzmaier said. "It's nothing we'll experience in our lifetime."

But several generations from now, humans just may witness a reversal. By then, Glatzmaier said, scientists will better understand the process and be prepared to cope with the effects.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_magnetic_field

Magnetic field reversals
Main article: geomagnetic reversal
The Earth's magnetic field reverses at intervals, ranging from tens of thousands to many millions of years, with an average interval of approximately 250,000 years. It is believed that this last occurred some 780,000 years ago, referred to as the Brunhes-Matuyama reversal.

The mechanism responsible for geomagnetic reversals is not well understood. Some scientists have produced models for the core of the Earth wherein the magnetic field is only quasi-stable and the poles can spontaneously migrate from one orientation to the other over the course of a few hundred to a few thousand years. Other scientists propose that the geodynamo first turns itself off, either spontaneously or through some external action like a comet impact, and then restarts itself with the "North" pole pointing either North or South. When the "North" reappears in the opposite direction, we would interpret this as a reversal, whereas turning off and returning in the same direction is called a geomagnetic excursion.

At present, the overall geomagnetic field is becoming weaker at a rate which would, if it continues, cause the field to disappear, albeit temporarily, by about 3000-4000 AD. The rapid deterioration began at least 150 years ago and has accelerated in the past several years, with a total decrease of 10-15% over these 150 years. This change is within the normal range of variation, as shown by study of magnetic fields in rocks, and need not necessarily lead to a reversal


http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/29dec_magneticfield.htm

Sometimes the field completely flips. The north and the south poles swap places. Such reversals, recorded in the magnetism of ancient rocks, are unpredictable. They come at irregular intervals averaging about 300,000 years; the last one was 780,000 years ago. Are we overdue for another? No one knows.

Now how was this record determined?

http://pubs.usgs.gov/publications/text/developing.html

Magnetic striping and polar reversals
Beginning in the 1950s, scientists, using magnetic instruments (magnetometers) adapted from airborne devices developed during World War II to detect submarines, began recognizing odd magnetic variations across the ocean floor. This finding, though unexpected, was not entirely surprising because it was known that basalt -- the iron-rich, volcanic rock making up the ocean floor-- contains a strongly magnetic mineral (magnetite) and can locally distort compass readings. This distortion was recognized by Icelandic mariners as early as the late 18th century. More important, because the presence of magnetite gives the basalt measurable magnetic properties, these newly discovered magnetic variations provided another means to study the deep ocean floor.

A theoretical model of the formation of magnetic striping. New oceanic crust forming continuously at the crest of the mid-ocean ridge cools and becomes increasingly older as it moves away from the ridge crest with seafloor spreading (see text): a. the spreading ridge about 5 million years ago; b. about 2 to 3 million years ago; and c. present-day.
Early in the 20th century, paleomagnetists (those who study the Earth's ancient magnetic field) -- such as Bernard Brunhes in France (in 1906) and Motonari Matuyama in Japan (in the 1920s) -- recognized that rocks generally belong to two groups according to their magnetic properties. One group has so-called normal polarity, characterized by the magnetic minerals in the rock having the same polarity as that of the Earth's present magnetic field. This would result in the north end of the rock's "compass needle" pointing toward magnetic north. The other group, however, has reversed polarity, indicated by a polarity alignment opposite to that of the Earth's present magnetic field. In this case, the north end of the rock's compass needle would point south. How could this be? This answer lies in the magnetite in volcanic rock. Grains of magnetite -- behaving like little magnets -- can align themselves with the orientation of the Earth's magnetic field. When magma (molten rock containing minerals and gases) cools to form solid volcanic rock, the alignment of the magnetite grains is "locked in," recording the Earth's magnetic orientation or polarity (normal or reversed) at the time of cooling.

Magnetic striping in the Pacific Northwest [70 k]
As more and more of the seafloor was mapped during the 1950s, the magnetic variations turned out not to be random or isolated occurrences, but instead revealed recognizable patterns. When these magnetic patterns were mapped over a wide region, the ocean floor showed a zebra-like pattern. Alternating stripes of magnetically different rock were laid out in rows on either side of the mid-ocean ridge: one stripe with normal polarity and the adjoining stripe with reversed polarity. The overall pattern, defined by these alternating bands of normally and reversely polarized rock, became known as magnetic striping.

And just for fun.........(Read on, you are going to love this! D.)

End of Part 1

[Damocles]

And just for fun; because when you do this stuff; you learn SOMETHING NEW everyday!

http://www.prehistoricplanet.com/features/news/2003/0122.htm

http://www.prehistoricplanet.com/features/news/2003/fourwings.jpg

Microraptor gui:
The Four-Winged Dinosaur

by Dave Board

9/21 With every newly discovered feathered dinosaur fossil, paleontologists are revealing the apparent dearth of superlatives in the English language. So maybe it's surprising that the latest "greatest" is called Microraptor: a name befitting the size—but not the importance—of this wonderful animal.

I should start this article by saying Microraptor is real. A real fossil dinosaur with real fossil flight feathers—on all four limbs. Dinosaurs with feathers on their bodies have now been found by the dozens. The first came in the 90's, and their arrival was welcomed as a prediction confirmed. Scientists had long theorized (since Darwin's time, in fact) that birds were related to reptiles. More and more, the comparison of dinosaur and bird skeletons revealed similarities. But theories are made to be broken, and paleontologists breathed a sigh of relief only when rare well-preserved dinosaur skeletons with fossil feathers began to turn up in China's Gobi desert.

So dinosaurs and birds had more than skeletal similarities in common: they both had feathers. What makes Microraptor so special, of course, is that the feathers on it's hind limbs—like those on it's arms and the arms of other feathered dinosaurs—are true flight feathers. Asymmetrical feathers provide the kind of aerodynamic form that airplanes employ to provide lift. In previous feathered dinosaurs, only downy, symmetrical feathers had been associated with hind limbs.

This is not to say Microraptor gui was a super-flyer. In fact, it's hard to imagine the little dinosaur was capable of flapping all four limbs. Likely, it glided between trees and tree limbs. Which leads to a significant proposal. While a popular theory of dinosaur scientists says true flight evolved from the ground up, maybe arboreal dinosaurs were in fact the pioneers of life in the skies. Microraptor's leg feathers would have dragged clumsily along if it spent time on the ground, and the previously mentioned problem of four flapping wings suggests the innovative creature spent most of it's time among the branches.

Maybe the argument that feathers evolved for the good of tree-dwelling dinosaurs has finally triumphed in Microraptor.

Or maybe not. A recent study of living birds stokes the fires of debate anew: ornithologists report the observation that some species of ground birds flail their wings furiously to assist in running up steep slopes. This flapping motion, it was discovered, does not provide vertical thrust but instead acts like a spoiler on a race car to press the birds' bodies to the surface they are trying to scale. The authors suggest feathers and wings might have first evolved to help young dinosaurs in a similar fashion.

Insulation from the cold, assistance in climbing tree trunks, gliding through the tree tops, and soaring across the sky: maybe it was for a mix of some or all of these functions that feathers evolved on bipedal dinosaurs. One thing is certain: Microraptor is the poster child of ingeniously configured dinosaurs.



The scientific description of Microraptor was published in the science journal Nature.

I bumped into that little fellow when I GOOGLED dynamo theory.

A biplane dinosaur?!?!

Mister Rocket J. Squirrel was beaten to the punch by Mister Microraptor Gui(pronounced GWEE)by about 130 million years. :D

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000F30B4-43B6-1E2F-8B3B809EC588EEDF

The remains, which date to roughly 130 million years ago, include a new species of dinosaur dubbed Microraptor gui (above). A member of the dromeosaurid family of dinosaurs--the group to which birds are thought to be most closely related--the diminutive Microraptor gui apparently bears a striking resemblance to a creature whose existence was predicted nearly 90 years ago. American naturalist William Beebe proposed in 1915 that the earliest bird was a four-winged glider, or tetrapteryx. Microraptor gui, notes University of Kansas paleontologist Richard O. Prum in a commentary accompanying the report, "looks as if it could have glided straight out the pages of Beebe's notebooks."

A biplane dino-flyer? Who would expect this?


Just goes to show that those who hope that life here began out there, have grounds for reasonable speculation. As long as we keep digging, I expect the surprises to keep coming.

Best wishes.

[Senmut]

Interesting theory. I'm working on a story with a similar premise- of an ancient advanced civilization on earth, capable of spaceflight, catastrophically wiped out to leave only enigmatic traces of inexplicable technology.

"There have even been recent geologial findings that suggest the Sphinx of the Giza plateau is at least 10,000 years old, 4000 years older that the known beginnings of human civilzation according to orthodox science."

I believe that this is good proof toward the theory that civilization goes back far longer than people think.

Yes. We are, slowly, climbing back up to where our distant ancesters once were. What is remembered on Earth as "the Flood" was the obliteration of the super-civilization that went before.

[Punisher454]

In the Sumerian writings there is a story of many tribes of man being called together to board a vessel made of metal which ascended into the heavens. This predates the writings of the Hebrews by at least a couple of thousand years.
Seems like a pretty wild idea for a supposedly primitive ancient people, unless they had something to base that on.

[Senmut]

EX-actly!!!


P.S. Who or what do you punish, Punisher?

[Punisher454]

I punish the guilty.

[Senmut]

Ah!

[BST]

Ah!

You guilty?

:?:

[Senmut]

Of many things, I'm sure.

[Punisher454]

For Senmut;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6je37OVNeIk
couldnt resist :)

[Senmut]

Graham Hancock is regarded as a crank in my country.

Peter

How sad. His research will stand the test of time.