Is BSG Noah's Ark, or Moses' Exodus?

[jjrakman]

I've read alot of posts that seem to compare BSG with the story of Noah's Ark, and I can certainly see some similarities. Especially since the original name of the series was "Adam's Ark"

However, I think that a closer parallel would be the story of Moses' exodus from Egypt. In the Moses story, Moses led his people out of bondage from the Egyptians. In BSG Adama led hispeople from the oppression of the Cylons. In the story of Moses, he parted the red sea. In BSG, Adama ordered viper pilots to part the "Red Sea" of the Nebula. In the Mosesstory, Moses is led by god to search for his people's "promise land." In BSG, Adama leads his people to search for Earth. In the Moses story, there are 12 Hebrew tribes, and a 13th lost tribe. In the BSG story, there are 12 colonies with a lost 13th colony. In the Moses story, he his people wander the desert for 40 years. In BSG, the Colonials wander the stars for, ?

If my grasp on the Moses stories is a little rusty, hey, it's been a long time since Sunday School. Just trying to start a fun discussion that drops the whole RDM thing to respect Micheleh's friendly request.

Anyway, what do all of you think?

[Dawg]

are thick in the basic premise of BSG, I think.

The stories I heard indicate Glen Larson was a devout Mormon and that influenced much of the mystical/spiritual aspect of BSG. So, the answer to your question is probably "yes".

:devil:

I think there are influences of both biblical stories there, myself.

Not that I'm a churchgoer, either (last time I was in a church was my own wedding).

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[jjrakman]

I wrote above, "Just trying to start a fun discussion that drops the whole RDM thing to respect Micheleh's friendly request."

Just read your conversation with Micheleh. Didn't mean ti "dis" you man. I agree with eveything you said in that thread. Just trying to lighten things up a bit for those who want it.

[Micheleh]

Lol! Thanks, JJ!

I'm not a biblical scholar, but the Exodus references are familiar. Oddly contrary in a way, though, if you count the 'Egyptian' styling of many of the BG costumes and props. Could this have been a reference to the possibility of the arrival of the 13th tribe on earth as one which brought about great and inexplicable technological advancement? (For example, the Great Pyramids.) And does this imply that the existance of man on earth predated the arrival of the 13th tribe? And could it imply the existence of other human civilizations as descendents of the original ancients who fled Kobol?

Hmmm.......

[jjrakman]

Dawg, I agree it carries aspects of both. I wonder are there other biblical references and if so what are they?

Also, interesting side note on the Mormons. I may be wrong but I believe that it is part of their faith that if you lead a good life here, and are worthy that you will become a god and create your own planet with it's own beings. That we are in fact, gods in training. But I may be wrong on that, may be a different faith.

[jjrakman]

that he would choose to use Egyptian styling for the Colonials. That's why I wonder if he used Von Daniken's work and others as inpsiration. According many of the prevailing Ancient Astonaut theories, the Egyptians as we know them did not build the pyramids but instead inherited the culture and structures from a previous high tech civilizaition.

[jjrakman]

You wrote: "And does this imply that the existance of man on earth predated the arrival of the 13th tribe?"

According to Zecharia Sitchin's work in which he translatesancient Sumerian texts, the humans were created as a work horse by the Nephilim (which means "those who came down" and commonly referred to as "the sons of God") to mine gold. These Nephilim came from a planet in our own solar system and were trying to use the gold to repair the damaged atmophere of their planet which was ultimately destroyed. The humans with the aid of some of the more rebellious Nephilim, which were called the Annunaki, helped us to rebel against our slavery.

[BST]

While we're drawing parallels:

12 Disciples of Christ - 1 traitor (Judas)
12 Quorum members - 1 traitor (Baltar)


Just a random thought,

BST

[TwoBrainedCylon]

Probably not a mistake. If you check the "Real Count Iblis" thread, http://pub99.ezboard.com/fthecylonalliancefrm2.showMessage?topicID=55.topic , (which was expertly researched BTW), you'll note that Iblis has a prominent place in mythology. Thus, the Beings of Light also represent something specific. I haven't loaded the video. Anyone recall offhand just how many of the Beings of Light were standing in the circle in the Ship of Lights? I'm also debating what they represented.

[KJ]

While we're drawing parallels:

12 Disciples of Christ - 1 traitor (Judas)
12 Quorum members - 1 traitor (Baltar)


Just a random thought,



Nope BST your point was spot on, Battlestar Galactica has biblical and mythological references to Earth's past, present and is set in the possible future (i.e. The real mystery of the series, whether or not it is set in the past or future?)

Baltar was BG's Judas as was Count Iblis BG's Satan or John BG's Archangel Gabriel, Adama BG's Noah or Moses? Metaphor and references to the extreme!

KJ

[Dawg]

It is my impression that Mr. Larson was (perhaps still is) a devout Mormon, and as such will have studied the Bible far more extensively than I, a devout pagan (bring on the virgin sacrifices! - second door on the left, I'll be in when I'm done with my oysters). :naughty:

According to my younger brothers (both of whom converted in high school, only one of whom still follows that church at all), there were many, many parallels between BSG's mythology and Mormon teachings. Eternal sealings, the 13 tribes, etc. The fact Adama was a priest in addition to Commander even has a link, apparently.

And, yes, it is also my understanding that if a Mormon man leads a good life here, he gets a whole planet to populate all by himself.

Probably with 70 virgins. :naughty: :naughty:

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[jewels]

two brain: in experiment in terra there were 3 around the table Apollo was on before John showed himself.

Dawg: I think Mormons believe that the marriage relationship goes on into eternity - sealed. the 70 virgins are for the adherents of Islam martyred for it (if they are male of course). You be wishful thinkin' on that one!

[Flamingo Girl]

I think the 70 virgin's thing was meant as a joke, jewels.

And yes, when you're married in the temple, you are "sealed" for eternity.

Another fun fact is that the name of the "home" planet, Kobol, is from a book called "The Pearl Of Great Price", which refers to a home planet called Kolob.

[jjrakman]

Excellent Parallel BST, I hadn't thought of that.

As far as when the series took place, I would think that given the final scene in The Hand of God it would have had to of taken place sometime after 1969, the landing on the moon. I thought I read somewhere that Mr.Larson's original intentions for when they reached Earth was a futuistic setting as opposed to the past, or present day.

Alsoif it's true that Mormons to believe that they are gods in training, I wonder if the beings of light would represent humnas who have transcended to that level?

[tracyb144]

My take on the Noah's Ark/Exodus angle would be that BSG followed more the vein of the Exodus. But it's true, there are quite a few Biblical references throughout as well as some Mormon touches.

According to the Mormon faith ( and I'm no expert so please correct me if I'm wrong ), but they believe that all life began on a planet called 'Kolob'. Arrange the letters a bit ....you get Kobol.

Also, Adama finds the tablets on the pyramid walls in "Lost Planet of the Gods" which describes the Exodus of the 13th tribe. And of course the fleet made the Exodus from the colonies.

The references stated above about the 12 members of the council equalling the 12 disciples, and Baltar being a Judas is dead on the money.



Tracy :warrior:

[TwoBrainedCylon]

I believe that Larson started with a fairly Mormon premise but that was filtered somewhat with the ancient astronaut theories popular at the time. These claimed that the Egyptians were the survivors of a higher civilization of Atlantis/Lemuria (the flavors changed a bit) who were themselves descended from the stars. The intro to each episode practically laid this out with the "Those who believe ..." bit.

Sitchen, bless him, is a horrible translator of Sumerian Mythology and went on his own way. I don't recognize any of his work in the BSG series but I do see a lot of Daniken's. I personally think this replaced most of the Mormonism, although I didn't know about the Kolob/Kobol thing. That's interesting.

Eden being on Kobol was a direct rip-off of a two theories popular in the mid-70s by the speculation crowd that said that Eden was actually located on another planet that was doomed (for reasons that vary with different authors) and the inhabitants came to Earth.

For the younger folks, there was a lot of this in throughout the 70s.

Two-Brain

[kingfish]

Galactica combined both Noah's Ark and The Exodus into one great story. Baltar is like a Judas in a sense and Iblis is the Devil. Adama would be the equivelent of Moses.

[jewels]

Originally posted by Flamingo Girl
I think the 70 virgin's thing was meant as a joke, jewels.

I thought it was a joke too. that's why I teased about wishful thinkin'

[jewels]

Did we mention the 12 tribes of man parallelling the 12 tribes of Israel?

And the lost tribe thing might refer back to some of those tribes which stop being mentioned after some of the various invasions into ancient Israel.

Mr. Larson was definitely cooking up an interesting tale....

Oh: OT: saw a few minutes of JAG last night and Bud cracked me up: He was reciting Episodes of Star Trek which "told the same stories" as Shakespeare's plays, Macbeth and a few others to an English professor. She said he gave her a unique teaching tool. :)

[jjrakman]

there was a lost 13th hebrew tribe according to the Old Testament.

The Kolob thing is fascinating. What does the faith say about Kolob. What is it like? Where is it? What happened to it? Anyone know?

[Erzengel]

What are the 13 hebrew tribes names? They used the zodiac signs in the series.

[jjrakman]

According to this site (can not vouch for accuracy) the tribes were named after the sons of Jacob.

http://www.philosophyforum.net/Religion/Thirteen/13%20Tribes.htm

[jjrakman]

http://nowscape.com/mormon/kolob-hi.htm

http://nowscape.com/mormon/kolob-defined.htm

http://www.americansouthwest.net/utah/zion/kolob_canyons.html

http://www.zetatalk.com/theword/tword16i.htm

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/gospel/creation/kolob.htm

[Flamingo Girl]

Yes, the thirteen tribes are named for the sons of Isreal, who was in essence the father of the Jews. I can't remember off-hand the names of all of them, however.

The story of the planet Kolob was found on some plates aquired and translated by Joseph Smith. The were lost by the family some time later, and reapeared in a New York Museum.

[jjrakman]

on the Galactica/Mormon connection.

http://www.proaxis.com/~sherlockfam/art5.html

http://www.michaellorenzen.com/galactica.html

http://home.earthlink.net/~billotto/Mormon_N_BSG.html

http://www.geocities.com/sjpaxton/bgmormon.html

http://institutecw.tripod.com/mormonsinspace.htm

http://members.cox.net/battlestar/galthemes.htm

[BST]

I would think that given the final scene in The Hand of God it would have had to of taken place sometime after 1969, the landing on the moon

That was "the door that was left open", for the discovery of Earth. Galactica (and the R.T.F.) could have found Earth, in the present, or in the future, depending on how far the radio signal had travelled.

BST

[jjrakman]

This quote:

"One of their doctrines is that of continued progression to ultimate perfection. They say God was but a man, who went out developing and increasing until be reached his present high capacity; and they teach that Mormons will be equal to him; in a word, that good Mormons will become gods."

Is from this source:

http://www.helpingmormons.org/Mormonism_Unveiled_1.htm

In fact if you enter, "Mormons will become gods" in a Google search you get quite a few matches.

Maybe it's a smaller section of the entire faith. Warrior, are there different factions or whatever you might call them, within the Mormon faith?

[jjrakman]

On the Church of Latter Day Saints website all I could find was this:

"Someday, like everyone else, your life on Earth will end and your physical body will die. But your spirit will not die. At the time of physical death, your spirit will go to the spirit world, where you will continue to learn and progress."

From:
http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1144-1,00.html

"You are here to receive a body and to gain experience. Heavenly Father wants you to learn those things that will help you become more like Him."

From:
http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1123-1,00.html

Maybe it's a misinterpretaion of these ideas, or a small offshoot of the main body of Mormonism?

[Flamingo Girl]

Warrior, I dodn't remember anything about ceasing to exist, I heard about "Outer Darkness" which is as far removed from the presence of Heavenly Father as you could get, basically banned from the kingdoms of heaven and set loose on your own, so that you might as well not exist.

[jjrakman]

bump!

[thomas7g]

HEY! I missed this thread. Its pretty good!

I never connected the exodus from egypt and the parting of the red mine filled sea of Carillon. :D

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[jjrakman]

yeah I thought these discussion threads were pretty good too. There were three of them in this subject, The Anceint Astronaut aspects of BSG, and the Ancient connection with the Colonial Patch by Hito. All three were really interesting. So I thought I'd bring them up agian.

[thomas7g]

:thumbsup:

[Corwwyn]

In response to threadstarter I'd suggest:

A little from Column A, and a little from Column B.

;)

[thomas7g]

*bump*

[Proximo]

Ahh, about the "lost" 13th tribe of Israel. It wasn't lost. The 12 tribes of Israel were Asher, Benjamin, Dan, Gad, Issachar, Joseph, Judah, Levi, Naphtali, Reuben, Simeon and Zebulun. However, you never actuallyhear about the tribe of Joseph. What happend there was Joseph's two sons fathered the 'half-tribes" of Ephraim and Mannesah. That technically makes 13 tribes, but in reality there were always 12.

[repcisg]

So we're a miscount?

[Flamingo Girl]

I'm an Ephraimite. ;)

[larocque6689]

Glen Larson and the production were influenced by much of what went on in the 1970s. Von Daniken's alien astronauts theories were at the heart of Galactica. He postulated that the pyramids and other ancient structures were not the result of human engineering but visitors from space. Also, interest in Egypt was very strong when Tutankhaman's tomb was opened and his exhibits were being shown around the world.

For the Christian (and Mormon) scriptures Egypt is mentioned. The story of Abraham and the story of Joseph for example, and later the story of Moses , brought to such cinematic delight in the CecilB. DeMille film "The Ten Commandments". I was disapointed when I finally cracked open the Book of Exodus and found out that they only filmed a fraction of the plagues of Egypt! But I digress. Egypt is prominent the LDS "Book of Abraham" as well.

Astrology, telekenisis and such were also big in the 1970s and elements of that show up in BSG including the names of the Colonies, and Adama's powers in War of the Gods.

Anyway - that explains some of the influence at work.

As for the intent and execution, I think the producers were trying to throw all sorts of stuff in to give viewers the idea that not only were the Colonials ancient brothers of man, but that they had migrated to Earth long ago and brought elements of their culture here. Galactica is the human twist on the Von Dankiken question. So the religion is vaguely Christian. The architecture is vaguely Egyptian. The costumes were "otherly" as well. The language is familiar but different (including such awkward terms as "centon" and "daggit").

The ancient Kobolians (and their ragtag 7th millenium descendents) initiated a journey strongly reminiscent of the Biblical Exodus of Egypt, or the Wagon trains of the Old West.

Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't, but when it did, the viewer was supposed to go "wow". Anyways, it worked on this 9-year old at the time.

[Winemaster]

There are major aspects of both in Bg but for my taste there isn't enough of either to say it is one or the other.
To be honest I look at BG through eyes of a "War of Armageddon" that brings all these aspects together (including everything in the ancient astronaut thread)

[jjrakman]

.Glen Larson and the production were influenced by much of what went on in the 1970s. Von Daniken's alien astronauts theories were at the heart of Galactica. He postulated that the pyramids and other ancient structures were not the result of human engineering but visitors from space. Also, interest in Egypt was very strong when Tutankhaman's tomb was opened and his exhibits were being shown around the world.


I think that's fairly true Larocque. Although the subject matter has become incresingly popular again with the likes of X-Files to a lesser extent, Stargate, and Art Bell's radio show did alot to revive the subject matter. I think it would be weel recieved today if the show were done correctly, which unfortunately it is not.:(

[LucianG]

Just saw this thread, and then saw that Proximo beat me to the explanation of the lost tribe of Isreal. I've always enjoyed the biblical-like aspects of BG, and I agree on the comparison to the Exodus.

I'll add a little more on the tribes of Israel for anyone interested. When the Assyrians conquered the northern kingdom (called Isreal, around 720 BC?), many of the people were carted away as slaves. Those that remained, and the imports moved into the area by the Assyrians, became the Samarians (a la "The Good Samaritan") named after the northern capital of Samaria. The Samarians were a reviled people in the eyes of those in the southern kingdom of Judah. The tribal references largely disappeared at that point, though the tribes of Judah and Benjamin occupied the southern kingdom, along with many of the Levites who were the priesthood. The southern peoples became known as Jews either shortly before or during their time in the Babylonian captivity.

[repcisg]

Most interesting!

[Proximo]

Sure is. Ooh, there's more though. The missing ten tribes were carted off toward the east, but they were later dispersed further and moved off by themselves to different parts of the world. There are still places that have very distinctly hebrew culture left in them. Tribes in africa that are basiclaly following the moseaic law, unusual red-heads in odd places (a lot of hebrews had red hair and ruddy complexions, believe it or not) and, if you get in to the rather risky area of morphology, you can see a clear movement of relatively narrow-skulled people through relatively round-skulled eastern europe, from Assyria, to turkey, to germany. Of course then you're getting in to the weirdness of the British Israelites... :) But it's all very intruiging. We know so very little about history and what's come before us, but people tend to base very complex theories on relatively scant evidence, and construe entire cultures from a few tablets. THen they make themselves experts on the subject when, really, there's not much information at all...I find the lack of knowledge frustrating, to say the least.

[LucianG]

An example of the African Jewish situation is discussed in

http://www.jafi.org.il/papers/1999/july/refjuly8.htm

Many of the Ethiopian Jews, most of whom are black though I have seen TV reports similar to what Proximo described, have migrated to Israel in recent years. Many of the Ethiopian Jews are believed to be descendants of those who converted to Judaism (even prior to it being called that) when the Queen of Sheba visited the Kingdom of Israel (united kingdom) during the reign of King Solomon (mid 900’s BC). Other Jews are believed to have migrated there in later years when some of the Jews were driven from the land by first the Assyrians, then the Babylonians, the Seleucids (to a degree), the Romans (after 70 AD and the Jewish revolts), and finally the Moslems. With just a little imagination, there’s a good tie-in to BG with that, though I think the Biblical Exodus is still a better comparison.

[jjrakman]

*BUMP*

[TwoBrainedCylon]

Rereading this, it occurs to me that the one thing missing from the original BSG was the Ark of the Covenant.

Looking back, the story so closely followed the basic Exodus story that Adama is really Moses without any real devine authority. He has the ancient symbol but nothing to parade in front of the people to say "I speak for God". I can understand why the studios wouldn't want to get this far into it and I'm not sure I'd have ever wanted to see the story take this sort of turn, but in hindsight, it would have been good to see at least one episode where they actually found a relic of the lost tribe that they could say "Here is proof that we're following the right trail".

Two-Brain

[jjrakman]

The big question then is, what would the artifact be? Some antiquated stone tablet, or a bit of ancient technology?

[BST]

Probably a little of both.

Since the thirteenth tribe, from BSG, is said to have left Kobol, in its final days, they would likely have taken the 'covenant' with them. In other words, the RTF would only have found the link between the two peoples if and when they found Earth.

[Dawg]

Perhaps "our" "Ark of the Covenant" would be found to be Kobol's when Galactica found earth.

But I'm thinking the proof of Earth would be on the order of Voyager, or entertainment broadcasts - early radio and TV, followed in short order by later - can you imagine what they'd think of Star Trek?

:D

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[BST]

Dawg,

How ya doin' buddy!! Long time, no talk to!

Re: the "Ark of the Covenant" (and contact with Earth)...exactly!!

My thought was that the Colonials would find the link that Earth was the Lost 13th tribe by finding the 'conevant' here, on Earth. As to first contact, you're right that they would have most likely picked up a broadcast that would have indicated that they were on the right track, along with possible/probable human settlements along the way.

BST :)

[Dawg]

The whole context of TOS BSG was that they were on thier way here, NOW, although that was never spelled out in so many words.

Gives all kinds of options, though - once they reach Earth, will it be current Earth, or some time in the future?

So where you been keeping yourself, BST? Keeping busy? (I sure am.) See where our old Captain made Mod?

Doesn't sound much like a promotion, does it? :p

Anyway, don't be a stranger, kid. ;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior::

[BST]

Originally posted by Dawg
So where you been keeping yourself, BST? Keeping busy?

Trying... (look a little closer) :D

BST

[Dawg]

OH, MY GOOD LORD!!!

*>thud<*

*Dawg faints dead away*

[BST]

Wake up, Dawg....all is not lost!! :)

*moves quickly (running is out of the question) to get a bucket of water to splash on dear old Dawg* :D

[Dawg]

IT DIDN'T HAVE TO BE COLD WATER!!!!

Somebody gimme a towel - and a heat lamp!

YOU, TOO????!!!!

Good gravy Marie....

Congratulations, Pete. Another worthy choice.

So many friends in high places! :D

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[AlphaAce]

I can see how the Exodus connection is a bit stronger than the Noah's Ark connection; however, I don't recall having read about 13 Hebrew tribes in the Bible. Is that a Mormon belief?

[jjrakman]

I thought I might bump this one up too for the new folks!

[LucianG]

Alpha Ace,

The tribes are in there. Check out the latter chapters of Genesis, with the birth of Jacob's sons, through Joshua in the Old Testament, and you'll get the story.

Lucian

[Proximo]

Essentially, the two half tribes Manessah and Ephraim, who collectively made the tribe of Joseph, make the number of tribes up to 13. Of course Levi wasn't a landed tribe and was set apart as the tribe of priests, so that sort of drops it down to 12 again...

[jjrakman]

Well, here comes my periodic bumping of this thread.

[LucianG]

It's funny that I was just thinking of one of the side notes in this thread after seeing an article in the news today.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=574&e=2&u=/nm/20040108/wl_nm/israel_ethiopia_dc_4

In brief, Isreal is planning to move the remaining 18,000 or so Ethiopian Jews to Isreal if they can get the permission of the Ethiopian government.

[shiningstar]

jjarkman. I think maybe in Adama's case .............. it
would be both a bit of ancient technology and documentation.

[shiningstar]

Good post two brianed cylon

[Dogface]

It's pure Mormon travel across North America.

"Terra" is Nauvoo, Illinois--the goal that wasn't the right spot.
"Earth" would be Salt Lake City.

[jewels]

But the ancient astronaut theory makes it more fun and a more interesting story, don't you think?

Thanks for bumping it up again JJ. always good to see new thoughts. And the Ethopian Jews returning to Israel is an interesting news snippet. More of Abraham's sons returning to the promised land.

[jjrakman]

You know regarding the Ethiopan Jews, Graham Hancock wrote a book a while back called The Sign and the Seal. Basically he went to go see Riaders of the Lost Ark and said to himself, what an interesting thing for someone to go look for, so he did. He ended up concluding that Ethiopian Black Jews held the actual Ark of the Covenant in a city known as Axom. So now I have to wonder, if they are returning to Israel, are they taking the Ark with them? It's interesting because Hancock's quest for the Ark is what led him to research for a prior high tech civilization that was destroyed before recorded history. Interesting reading.

[Dogface]

Originally posted by jewels
But the ancient astronaut theory makes it more fun and a more interesting story, don't you think?


The "ancient astronaut" story is structurally identical to Mormon beliefs. Now, it should be noted that the Mormons did it first, so if there is any "copying" going on, it's the tinfoil-hat-folks misinterpreting or putting funny clothes on a more respectable religious doctrine.

Mormons: The lost tribe went to North America and brought with them advanced Hebrew technology.
Ancient Astronauts: The spacemen came to earth and brought with them advanced spaceman technology.

Mormons: Apparent similiarities we see between American tribal religious beliefs and other customs and the Old World are not coincidence or a reasonable result of any human culture in sufficiently similar conditions--they are memories of the lost Hebrew tribe.
Ancient Astronauts: Pyramids and straight lines in architecture are not coincidence or inevitable application of simple phyisical principles--they are memories of the lost Spaceman Teachers.

Mormons: God waits for us to come back to Him, at least those of us who have lived worthily. Those of us who spiritually make it to Kolob then are able to take part in ongoing and endless improvement and learning.
Ancient Astronauts: The spacemen are still out there, watching over us, waiting for us to show our worthiness. Once we do, they will teach the worthy their great technological secrets.

Mormonism is a far likelier well for Larson to have used as a source than ancient austronautery. And the symbolism and "back-story" of Mormonism is no less interesting a basis for storytelling than is ancient astronautery. While the LDS may only go back to the 19th century, they have put their own interpretation on materials going back thousands of years, and probably far more comprehensively than the tinfoil-hat aisle of the bookstore has. Like composers and playwrights of old, Larson dipped into his own personal experience--and THAT is what made the old series breathe and live. It was not a riff on something about which the author had no serious feelings (I doubt that Larson has serious feelings about ancient astronautery). Instead, it presented ideas and ideals that were near and dear to the man's heart. I, for example, would put a lot more love into something based on the premises of the Orthodox Church than I would based on 21st century tabloid theories of "Atlantis". Mind you, since Orthodoxy has quite a bit of Hellenic culture behind it, there would certainly be elements that could overlap with at least some version of the Atlantis story--but my passion would not come from Atlantean origins.

[Dogface]

Originally posted by jjrakman
He ended up concluding that Ethiopian Black Jews held the actual Ark of the Covenant in a city known as Axom.

The Falasha Jews don't claim to have the Ark. The Ethiopian Orthodox (Tawahedo) Church actually makes the claim. They hold that it is in the Church of St. Mary of Zion in Axum. Now, Axum isn't just any li'l ol' Ethiopian town. It is the center of the Tawahedo Church, was the capital of the Axum Empire (predecessor to Ethiopia), and the location where Christianity was made the official religion some time in the 4th century AD. The Church of St. Mary (aka Miriam) of Zion is part of a complex that also houses the Ethiopian Crowns. They maintain that the Ark was given to King Menelek by his father, Solomon, for safekeeping after a prophetic dream.

Now, Ethiopian Orthodox do maintain a great number of Jewish practices that have elsewhere been abandoned, and this may have confused the author, but they are in communion with the Copts, Armenians, and several other groups, forming the Oriental (non-Chalcedonian) Orthodox communion.

Unfortunately, in the modern era, they not only have to contend with Muslim militancy but constant encroachment by Protestants who try to convince them that they, one of the oldest Christian organizations in all of the world, are "pagans".

[Darth Marley]

I was wondering as I read the post if the E.O. would have common rites with the Copts.

I might be identified as pagan by the current definition of Orthodoxy,but I prefer the term Heretic.Worn with pride.

Last I had heard of the Ark was that some archaeologists had a good lead on it being buried in Palestinian controled Israel.

[Dogface]

Originally posted by Darth Marley
[B]I was wondering as I read the post if the E.O. would have common rites with the Copts.

"Common rites", not as such. The Copts practice the Coptic Rite, which is part of the Syrian liturgical family. The Ethiopian Ge'ez rite is pretty much unique in Christianity. I believe it is the only "high" Liturgical church that practices Liturgical dance during its equivalent of the "Mass".

That being said, the Copts and the Tawahedo are of the same Communion (Oriental Orthodox). With luck and some humility on both sides, they and my own Communion (Eastern Orthodox) could look past our ancient differences within my own lifetime.

As for a definition of "pagan". As far as the Eastern Orthodox Churches are concerned, the doctrines of the Ethiopian Orthodox are far closer to them than are many Protestant doctrines.

[jewels]

Originally posted by Dogface
With luck and some humility on both sides, they and my own Communion (Eastern Orthodox) could look past our ancient differences within my own lifetime. Some of us hope that for all Christian sects (or whatever is the proper term).

[ViperTech]

I think it's Noah's Ark more than The Exodus.

There are many biblical archetypes in it, most obvious, the 12 Tribes of Kobol and the 12 Tribes of Israel.
But Noah and his family are all that's left after all have been detroyed, like BG. In Exodus, it's only the enemy (The Egyptians) whose destruction is left behind by the fleeing Jews. In BG, the Colonial fleet is not fleeing after a huge victory over the Cylons.

I think the Mormon reference that Larson mentions as basis for BG is the great Mormon migration that occured in the 1840's from Missouri to Salt Lake City. Commander Adama basically takes on the role of the Mormon's Brigham Young, a wise and somewhat reluctant leader who must guide his followers to a new land. The Young-led Mormons were fleeing religious persecution from Missouri residents after the violent and controversial death of their leader, Joseph Smith. Smith's death made Young the leader, a role that troubled him initially. The biblical references are added for flavor.

[Dogface]

Originally posted by jewels
Some of us hope that for all Christian sects (or whatever is the proper term).


We've had 2,000 years to build up the walls. Swimming back from Conclusions always takes longer than jumping there.

(Let's see who gets that particular literary allusion.)

[jjrakman]

The main thing that makes me think it's more the Exodus as opposed to Noah's Ark, is that you have the colonials excaping th Cylon's bondage, the way the Hebrews escaped the Egyptians bondage.

And then you had Adama parting the red Nebula, much in the same way Moses parted the Red Sea.

I think there's a lot more paralells in the Exodus.

[shiningstar]

I think it's a bit of both actually. More on Adama being Moses and
leading what's left of his people to safety, but still Noah's ark is
also appropriate. I think it's more of Moses then Noah though.:star:

[jewels]

I'm thinking the Exodus: 40 years of wandering in the desert until a generation dies out, so the next generation can enter the promised land (where the parallel croaks is that the Israelites had sent spies into the land to determine if they could take it: when they were chicken to take it, the Lord wouldn't let that generation of leaders enter the land, instead they wandered, learning to trust their .)

The nice thing about BSG's exodus is the "wandering time" is undetermined. And their goal is to find us, not take us over.

[shiningstar]

I agree Jewels. Good Points. I always like your posts.

[BST]

After reading all of the extremely informative insights, from this thread, I tend to think that the journey from the Colonies, toward Earth, was a mix of both "Noah's Ark" and "Exodus". It was hard for me to pin down one or the other. For me, it was part-Noah's Ark due to the "gathering together of the survivors", i.e., the Rag-Tag Fleet; it was part-Exodus due to the portrayal of Adama, as Moses, as a beacon of hope, an icon, if you will, for the survivors of the Cylon massacre.

As I mentioned, above, about the informative insights, the members of this forum never cease to amaze me with how much knowledge they have and how readily they are willing to share that knowledge with others. Previously, I thought of myself as a reasonably bright chap but, when I gaze over some of these articles, I realize that I still have a lot to learn.

Thank you!!

BST :)

[shiningstar]

as do I.

[ViperTech]

I think you're right BST. It does have elements of both, as well as the whole Mormon thing.

[shiningstar]

I studied a variety of religions. I loved the fact that
so many religions and cultures were included in BSG
(Without being preachy about it .. I might add.).

[jjrakman]

This was always a great conversation.

[Lara]

And Erik von Daniken is still researching and writing his books on ancient astronauts. I picked one up at the newsagent a few months back. called The Gods Were Astronauts" It was written in 2001, and discussed the various versions of a battle in heaven, and the wars of the gods that are in ancient literature, pointing out the similarities on how the gods conduct war, with their 'eggs" and 'ships if lights" with terrible weapons, etc, in a variety of religious traditions, starting with the expulsion of Lucifer.

I admit I picked it up for a giggle, but this man is serious, very widely read, and dare I say, many of his speculations are better supported than the docu tripe on the history channel!! Even if I didn't agree with all of it, it was rich food for thought. (I especially liked the bit about the "Ancient of Days" being a manna making machine that used Chlorelle alge as a photosynthetic driven supply of food for the exodus)

Add to this I have been reading about the 'lost' books of the Bible: getting to understand the Bible as we know it is a collection of stories chosen for inclusion among a lot of potential material, and my understanding of the history of religion has been going into all sorts of interesting directions!

Again and again I find random stuff that does, or could fit with the BSG mythos. I suspect Larson grab bagged a lot of this stuff, but I would be fascinated to put the question of 'sources' to him!!

Cheers,
Lara

[Shatter]

This is a very interesting conversation. With respect to the parallel between Galactica and either Noah's Ark or the Exodus of the children of Israel, I would have to agree with others that there are strong correspondences with both. But since reading over this thread, I've had an idea rumbling around in my head that I felt compelled to share.

One of the Christian perspectives on the events recorded in the Old Testament involves the prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah: Jesus Christ. It is clear from several prophetic sources (Isaiah in particular) that Christ was to be born within the Hebrew people. Now if we take the perspective that much of what occurs on earth is a reflection of what is going on spiritually, we're provided with some interesting insights. Isaiah 14 describes the fall of Lucifer, who will eventually come to be known as Satan. Lucifer is cast out of Heaven, along with those that followed him in rebellion, because in his pride he believed that he could displace God and establish his own heavenly kingdom. Although Satan does have power within this world, he is aware that ultimately he will be cast into eternal darkness and torment. As he cannot establish a true spiritual kingdom of his own, much of his efforts are aimed at attempting to disrupt the work of God. Thus, throughout the Old Testament we see Satan, through the opposition of many different nations, attempting to destroy Israel. Had he been able to do so, he would have destroyed the godly line and prevented the prophecy of Christ's coming. In terms of spiritual reality, Satan, a created being, struggling against God, the Creator of all that is, never had a chance.

As has been considered from the beginning of this thread, the men and women of Galactica have a strong association with the children of Israel. But what struck me recently was the parallel between the Cylons and the kingdom of darkness. I can recall learning that the Cylons were, at one time, a reptillian race that chose, through something of a Faustian bargain, to exchange their living forms for the machines that became the scourge of the galaxy. As memory serves, their primary motivation was power: the ability to conquer the known galaxy. The first Galactica novel (the novelization of "Saga of a Star World") is fascinating, in part, for the insights that it provides into the lack of individuallity that the Cylons have, and the motivations of the Imperious Leader. In essence, the Cylons have surrendered most of the things that make life more than mere existence: love, creativity, emotion, etc. Instead they have taken on the mantle of lifeless machines, executing a lone directive to destroy anything that stands in the way of their obtaining power. A bit like those that followed Lucifer: trading in the glory of heaven for an existence fueled by rage, and the promise of eternal death. Interesting too that their desire is to eliminate the last vestiges of humanity, of life itself, who are seeking a "promised land" to begin anew in. What a terrible price the Cylons chose to pay in their thirst for conquest.

[3DMaster]

Galactica combined both Noah's Ark and The Exodus into one great story. Baltar is like a Judas in a sense and Iblis is the Devil. Adama would be the equivelent of Moses.

Iblis is the name of Satan/Lucifer/the Devil in the Muslim Quran by the way.

You know regarding the Ethiopan Jews, Graham Hancock wrote a book a while back called The Sign and the Seal. Basically he went to go see Riaders of the Lost Ark and said to himself, what an interesting thing for someone to go look for, so he did. He ended up concluding that Ethiopian Black Jews held the actual Ark of the Covenant in a city known as Axom. So now I have to wonder, if they are returning to Israel, are they taking the Ark with them? It's interesting because Hancock's quest for the Ark is what led him to research for a prior high tech civilization that was destroyed before recorded history. Interesting reading.

The Ethiopian Jews holding the covenant are Christians by now, and undoubtedly they are not the jews the Israelites want to return. The ark, or what they say is the ark, is sealed away in a house, in a basement properly, and has one caretaker that NEVER leaves it side, and NOBODY else gets to see. It won't be shipped to Israel anytime soon, not unless god himself instructs the caretaker to do it - in short, it's never gonna happen. Unless everyone rejects religion.

The main thing that makes me think it's more the Exodus as opposed to Noah's Ark, is that you have the colonials excaping th Cylon's bondage, the way the Hebrews escaped the Egyptians bondage.

The humans were never in the Cylon's bondage though; they were slated for extermination.

[jjrakman]

No, but one could say that they were oppressed by the Cylons, or at least were with odds with them. A variation on the story.

Here are the parralless I see with the Exodus.

13 Tribes. 13 colonies
14th lost tribe. 14th lost colony.
Moses leading them to the promise land. Adama leading them to Earth.
Parting the Red Sea. Blowing their way through the red nebula.
Hebrews reverting to gambling and sinning. Colonials succumbing to the pleasures of Carillon.