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Dawg
April 6th, 2003, 02:41 PM
First of all, I want to issue a heartfelt thanks to everyone who has posted in this forum for the past several weeks. When I came here, I had just learned that a revival of a favorite show from my youth was beyond the ‘talking about’ stage, that it was being helmed by a writer whose previous work I had admired, and that hope was high that BattleStar Galactica would rise again. The posts I have read here and elsewhere over the last couple of months have been very educational and very thought-provoking. Some of them were touching, some were laughable, some just pissed me off.

I became a member of this forum rather than any of the others for two reasons: the people here seemed to reflect my own (admittedly not-fully-formed) opinion, and there seemed to be a civility here that was sorely lacking at other boards I’d lurked. Some of that has broken down of late, and I regret seeing that. You see, I’m a natural peacemaker; I despise conflicts and want everyone to get along, particularly those people I’ve come to like and respect.

Before I really get into it, you need to know something about me. I am of the same generation as are most of you; I was just past high school when BSG premiered. Unlike most of you, though, I am not an artist or a modeler, but I am a writer (and I would give a lot to be able to work on a BSG book). Because I am a writer, I must work for a living, and so I run a law office during the day.

In a law office, language is everything; each word has a precise meaning, because precision is necessary so that there are no misunderstandings in a legal document. So, if I say I’m a fan of Ron Moore’s work on Star Trek, that’s what I mean – I’m a fan of his work on Star Trek. That does not mean that I automatically accept his work on anything else, including BSG, as being good.

I hope we’re clear on that.

There are several things that bother me about this whole thing, not the least of which is the fact there are members of this board who have obvious blind spots about this whole debate. I refer to the automatic assumption that the end result of this revival is going to be so far removed from anything ‘Battlestar Galactica’ that it will kill the franchise and send us all home to cry in our beer, never to have anything ‘Battlestar Galactica’ to enjoy again.

(There is a two-word phrase I would use here, but the moderators would shut me down for it – suffice it to say it has to do with what you find in the pasture of a male bovine.)

The original series is out there. It cannot be taken back. This group – our group – of fans will always be there. There will always be conventions honoring this short-lived series, if there is an interest for it. There will always be fan fiction and the like, as long as there are people interested. To proclaim such doom and gloom this soon is not just foolish, it’s stupid, and it irritates me no end. Even if they are shooting now, there is a lot of room to hope for us.

I STILL have not seen this script everybody’s all up in arms over, so I can’t form an opinion of it, but I have some questions about it: 1.When was it written, when was it first leaked? 2. How many re-writes has it gone through since? 3. With RDM splitting his time with Carnivale (I’ve heard most of his time is there), and we know re-writes are still ongoing, what elements have changed and what has stayed the same? 4. Anybody seen something recent enough that they might be shooting from that version?

Edward James Olmos and Mary McDonnell are top-flight actors who can pretty much pick and choose their projects. They will have seen a script well before they signed on – and they liked what they saw well enough to want to be a part of it. I take that as a positive sign that what is being shot is using a decent script.

Because of all this, I still think it eminently possible that the end result will be worth watching.

Think about this: secrecy is the norm. Most movie/tv productions won’t give you much about story line, characters, sets, etc. because they want you to tune in. They will tease you with leaks, promo photos, and propaganda as effective as anything you see out of Iraq today. Information and disinformation. Any press is good press. If you can stir up controversy, so much the better.

How much of what we’ve heard about this production is true, how much is untrue? I don’t know. Who are the most reliable sources we have? Do you know them? I don’t. Where do they work, and who do they work for? Are they being fed disinformation, or the straight scoop? Which news on which bboard is accurate, which is designed just to get our knickers in a knot?

I am a cynic, but I am an optimistic cynic. I do trust several people who post here to give as accurate information as they can, and to debunk the lies. I know, though, that none of us will truly know the content of that movie until the night it airs. I really think that’s when we’ll need to take action, if action needs to be taken. We could probably drive the price down in the sale of SciFi Channel, if we put our minds to it. But we won’t have just cause to try until we see the finished product. To talk of boycotts with as little information we have now is premature.

My work has given me a particular skill: to take a mental step back and observe things more objectively. I have done this with this “debate.” I think I understand, perhaps, some of the reasons why BSG has been treated so differently than, say, Star Trek.

First of all, studio support has been wholly lacking from Universal for the past 25 years. Not so Star Trek. There have been discussions from the end of ST:TOS about more series, the cartoon, books, movies, etc. Paramount stayed with ST – Universal put BSG on a shelf and wouldn’t take it down.

ST:TOS had three seasons of usually well-written, well-presented, frequently complex and thought-provoking episodes. BSG didn’t. There was only one season. Much of the writing was poor and the presentation left much to be desired, as did the talent of some of the actors. A lot of that was understandable when you realize how rushed and pinched for cash the production was, but IMO the final product simply does not live up to its potential, and that’s what current PTB see.

That’s why I don’t think a continuation was given serious consideration.

I also want everybody to understand that even though I see the series as flawed, I still love it and want to see it revived properly – that means I take a dim view of gender changes, name changes, and I find particularly distasteful the ideas of turning the Cylons into man-made machines that are now rebelling, and turning Earth into the homeworld rather than the destination of the 13th tribe (and all the other changes to the base story that would entail).

Regardless of our wishes and wants, though, the revival will contain changes we won’t like. I’ve said before that there will likely be something about it that will make some of us unhappy, and there are, right now, people claiming we have been defeated. Well, it is entirely possible that although we were defeated in specific battles over this, we may well win this war, and be left with something that will actually bring BattleStar Galactica back.

Keep the faith.:thumbsup:

I am
Dawg

kingfish
April 6th, 2003, 02:49 PM
Hi,
I am also a fan of TOS Trek. TOS Trek became popular in syndication and when it originally ran wasn't a ratings success. BG on the other hand was a success from the start. What killed Galactica was the cost. BG was never meant to be a weekly series so there was a rush for stories. Two hour movies were the main format Larson wanted to take.

LordStarFyre
April 6th, 2003, 02:50 PM
Read this

http://www.battlestarfanclub.com/battlestar/bgarticle26.htm

According to sources, from both sides, the only changes are now there are 12 planets instead of one.

The rest is intact.

Read it, then come back and comment

une
April 6th, 2003, 03:26 PM
Beyond the changes, which are to be expected considerring that it's a remake, that's not a bad script.

LordStarFyre
April 6th, 2003, 04:22 PM
:X

Micheleh
April 6th, 2003, 04:48 PM
I didn't find the writing to be very good, either, my opinion... it relied too much on formula and cliche. But I can count the number of writers I rate excellent on one hand.

If Une likes it and I don't, it's one of those agree to disagree things. (Btw, is that Une as in Lady Une?)

une
April 6th, 2003, 05:12 PM
...Frankly, it lost me after the Glowing spines, the CO Getting Punched in the face after drinking himself into a stupor because his wife is boinking half of Caprica. I won't even get into the jiggling Sports Bra, the Broken Marriage issue, the Cylons being Human Creation, the Handjobs, the Sex at every turn, the Boomer-Female-Cylon Traitor deal, etc.

[quote]All in All, It ISN'T Battlestar Galactica...

No, it's Battlestar Galactica, just not the one you grew up and identify with. The basic themes of the human spirit and people coming together through tragedy is still there, it's just presented differently.

In terms of how the story is presented, all those negatives you brought up do make sense and fit into the story. The way I see it, your getting angrier about the changes made then the quality of the product itself.

kingfish
April 6th, 2003, 05:17 PM
That is the only thing that resembles the show I like. What made the show worth watching is GONE.

LordStarFyre
April 6th, 2003, 05:18 PM
You're so right. Ron is the God King. How could I have been so wrong about him...

All I've ever wanted is 70's tv and disco hair, also to see to it that Richard Hatch has a job.

With these new restrictions, I have seen the light, let the Remake begin, and bury that old POS...

une
April 6th, 2003, 05:40 PM
(Btw, is that Une as in Lady Une?)

yep

BST
April 6th, 2003, 05:59 PM
The conversations that have taken place regarding the return of BSG in some ways emulate everyday life in this country.

What I mean, is that the original BSG was developed and its story told, albeit for 1 season. If BSG's return was being handled by members of "our generation" then, it would be a product that built on the original. That's how we were taught by our parents, at least that's how I was taught. My parents grew up during the Great Depression and the lessons that they learned, they passed on to me. You don't automatically throw something away, just because it is broken, or doesn't work right. You try to fix it and make it better.

Now, we fast-forward to today's generation -- they are the product of the Baby Boom generation, they are the children of a 2 income household, they are the children who grew up during the "disposable" generation -- fast food, cameras, etc. Today, we're told that it's easier AND cheaper to THROW AWAY something than it is to fix it!

That, IMO, is why the "new" followers of BSG don't have a problem with the re-imagining. They don't know any other alternative than to throw the original away and start over. That is the lesson that THEY learned.


Oh well, just an observation...

BST

une
April 6th, 2003, 08:32 PM
You're so right. Ron is the God King. How could I have been so wrong about him...

All I've ever wanted is 70's tv and disco hair, also to see to it that Richard Hatch has a job.

With these new restrictions, I have seen the light, let the Remake begin, and bury that old POS...

Oh yes, we all know that no one can possibly enjoy the script for the BSG remake unless they're a obsessed Ron Moore fanboy. :rolleyes:


The conversations that have taken place regarding the return of BSG in some ways emulate everyday life in this country.

What I mean, is that the original BSG was developed and its story told, albeit for 1 season. If BSG's return was being handled by members of "our generation" then, it would be a product that built on the original. That's how we were taught by our parents, at least that's how I was taught. My parents grew up during the Great Depression and the lessons that they learned, they passed on to me. You don't automatically throw something away, just because it is broken, or doesn't work right. You try to fix it and make it better.

Now, we fast-forward to today's generation -- they are the product of the Baby Boom generation, they are the children of a 2 income household, they are the children who grew up during the "disposable" generation -- fast food, cameras, etc. Today, we're told that it's easier AND cheaper to THROW AWAY something than it is to fix it!

That, IMO, is why the "new" followers of BSG don't have a problem with the re-imagining. They don't know any other alternative than to throw the original away and start over. That is the lesson that THEY learned.

Nice generalizing there, chief.

LordStarFyre
April 6th, 2003, 08:42 PM
...If the shoe Fits Junior, Wear it...

une
April 6th, 2003, 08:56 PM
...If the shoe Fits Junior, Wear it...

Wow, so instead of engaging in an actual covnersation with a person with an opposing viewpoint, you just decide to libel that individual.

There are two kinds of maturity, comrade, physical and mental. Guess which one you've proven yourself not to have.

LordStarFyre
April 6th, 2003, 08:58 PM
...conversation...

Not!

I've seen your posts, you're just another of the Moore Fans, coming in here to pick a fight, so you can run and tell everyone how we attacked you...

Be Gone Punk, I'm bored with you

Armstrong
April 6th, 2003, 09:03 PM
The script, no, is bad. I must say marks to much of him? Straight lines Saying which is good him, is not like saying "hey, this bad piece of meat fresh and vibrating, is putrefied actually in the heart." to say can you with that? With regard to me, I say No, with miles.

Dawg
April 6th, 2003, 09:11 PM
Thank you, LSF - that's the link I've been wanting since I joined here.

I've spent the day reading that through (and doing chores, but you're not interested in those). ;) I know you are all waiting breathlessly for my response to your kind input.

I must respectfully disagree with you, Une; I do not feel the writing of that script was particularly good - it wasn't as good as some of the draft writing I've done, and this was supposed to be done by a real pro, not a comparative amateur like myself.

I can see some of the action sequences in my mind's eye, and some of it's pretty good. Some of the issues touched on, such as the people left behind, were brought into much clearer focus than the original series did; there was very little in the way of gut-wrenching decisions like that in the TOS pilot. Some of the technological ideas, too (the Cylon method of disabling the colonies' defenses, for example), I could see and make very good sense. There are parts of this script that should be explored more fully and used.

But, as I feared, there are too many changes in the basic story. Baltar's treason was willful, not the inadvertent result of greed and lust. Earth's location was unknown, but it was no lie made up by Adama to placate an agitated population. 13 tribes left Kobol in days of antiquity to escape a dying planet, founded the 12 known colonies and one other, known as Earth.

I might be able to accept Starbuck and Boomer as women, even a strain between Apollo and Adama, if more of the basic story were left intact.

However:

I do not accept Tigh as a drunk.

I do not accept the lack of military discipline before the attack.

I do not accept Cylons as man's creations run amok.

I do not accept the basic history of the Colonies, an original idea, being scrapped for what amounts to a rehash of what Heinlien and others have been doing for over 50 years.

There is little original thought in that script. There is little Battlestar Galactica in that script.

Being the eternal optimist I am, I sincerely hope radical changes have been made in that script, that the input of those who feel as most of us do has been heard and revisions made. After all, this was a draft script and will have undergone several re-writes before filming begins.

The whys and wherefores of this poor script are almost secondary (although I agree fully with what you said, BST). But I also stand by what I said - under the circumstances of most productions, we probably know very little about what is actually being filmed. I will be patient (well, not too impatient, anyway) and be very interested in what we hear from those with ears at the keyhole. There is still room for hope, and I will keep the faith.

In the meantime, I am enlisting – fully – in the cause. :mad: (Please note the change in my avatar – and my attitude.)

Should the finished product be as non-BSG as we fear, I have some ideas for actions that can be taken – and some that we should take now, in preparation. Organization, mostly – I will enlarge upon my ideas if anyone is interested in hearing them.

One last thing: I am not here for an argument with anybody – if you like that draft script, that’s fine with me. Just don’t try to tell me that it is Battlestar Galactica.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

LordStarFyre
April 6th, 2003, 09:14 PM
...I Proclaim you Healed of the Evil...

Say it with me Brother, I am Healed!!!

:)

Micheleh
April 6th, 2003, 09:19 PM
"In terms of how the story is presented, all those negatives you brought up do make sense and fit into the story. The way I see it, your getting angrier about the changes made then the quality of the product itself."

I don't recall anyone asking you to come in here and pass judgement on anyone's tastes or preferences. You like it, that's fine. Most people here don't. Respect their space or go somewhere else.

LordStarFyre
April 6th, 2003, 09:27 PM
Une is a PERFECT example of what we've been dealing with.

Think of that, many times over, almost all of them spouting the SAME arguments, for months....

Why do you think I laughed at the Jock comment awhile back? It wasn't the first time the same sort of argument had been thrown my way...

Erzengel
April 6th, 2003, 09:34 PM
All the arguements on the other side are scripted so there is no logic in thier debates.

Micheleh
April 6th, 2003, 09:35 PM
I don't care what opinions people come here with, but when they start condescending to the membership, telling them to see the error of their ways, why can't you see the superiority of this project- we don't need that.

I agree that everyone has a right to their own opinion, but it doesn't take an Einstein to figure out that if you like the Bulls, have great things to say about the Bulls, yo have a perfect right to- I just wouldn't advise doing it in a Piston's bar.

The bottom line is that this forum is about the original, and to many only, BSG series. Sure, if people want to like the new one, fine, as long as they can respect the majority of the membership's right to have their opinions, and carry on their discussions in their space. If not, there are other places to go.

LordStarFyre
April 6th, 2003, 09:57 PM
>:)

Erzengel
April 6th, 2003, 10:01 PM
Are they the one's that lost to the :muffit:s?

Micheleh
April 6th, 2003, 10:03 PM
Yeah yeah, so I'm old school. :D

Remember the Chicago Bulls vs the Detroit Pistons (basketball)? Good ole' Scotty Pippin and Magic?

Erzengel
April 6th, 2003, 10:05 PM
:uhdrop:

Oh yeah in the National Boredom Association. I remember now.:nervous:

Micheleh
April 6th, 2003, 10:07 PM
Yeah, but I lived a block away from the damn stadium, so there was no escaping it.

Stevew
April 7th, 2003, 06:09 AM
The RDM troll's must be getting so desperate they come here and try to disrupt a civil board LOL not going to happen
S:D

BST
April 7th, 2003, 01:46 PM
Nice generalizing there, chief.

Une,

I have explained my reasons for my preference regarding Battlestar Galactica in this forum and in others. They are available for reading at any time, should you wish to familiarize yourself. I don't think it's necessary or practical to re-state my feelings on each reply that I make to a particular issue. Furthermore, I don't feel obligated to re-state my feelings for the sake of one person that does not want to take the time or effort to become educated about a subject before responding.


BTW, if you had bothered to read 'between the lines' in this post, my feelings were very apparent!


BST

JediMasterGynac
April 7th, 2003, 06:31 PM
and would like to welcome you to the struggle. We need more optimists around here. I've often felt like the only one and I'm sure there are others who feel the same. I think you make a very good point about us probably having no idea what is really being shot. Still, the script you just read does not bode well. Furthermore, the attitudes of those invlovled seems to hint that this IS what they are shooting. Time will tell...

KTFF

keeping the faith forever!
:colwar: