A Hilarious Mistake and BSG

[Muffit]

I want to share with you something really funny that happened to me, or should I say with me. I think I have mentioned my spouse is foreign, and although fluent in 3 languages, like most to whom English is foreign, has trouble sometimes with our slang.

About 15 years ago my spouse was my fiancé, and we were house hunting. For any of you who have looked for houses in the Bay Area, you can identify with what a frustrating and depressing experience it is. Most homes are so far out of reach as to be ridiculous, and the ones that you might just barely be able to afford are so bad you'd be embarrassed to live there.

Anyway, I had promised we would look for condominiums if all else failed, and the day was long and pretty much hopeless. The last home we looked at was downtown, across from a gas station and next to a lumber yard, and the floor beneath your feet bent for 3 feet in every direction. The roof was condemned and all in all this last hope was no hope at all. I said our good-byes to the 2 real estate agents (a man and a woman) and was just walking away when suddenly my fiancé blurted out, "Wait! Aren't we going to look at condoms?" :eek:

You could've lit the shocked silence with a match. The male agent was doing his level best to keep a professional demeanor, (and failing miserably as he nearly burst out laughing), and the female agent was in such a state of shock that her chin was only inches from the ground.

We laugh about it now, but it makes me think of something similar in our situation. If you're gonna revive or remake a show, shouldn't you understand it first? What made it so great and memorable? Without that understanding you're bound to make some grievous errors, possibly as embarrassing as my fiancé's. But when you /really/ know and understand something, you can manipulate it into something wonderful, be it language or a show.

Please understand what made BSG great and recreate those elements. The cast, themes, music and magic are still here and waiting. Make a sale to millions of viewers, sell us something we really want.

:muffit:

[default]

oh yes. that is so true.

[Thomas P]

The problem with the analogy is that, while it's hard to say what Hammer and Universal know or don't know it's pretty obvious from reading Moore's script that he does understand it and did research it -- he simply has different opinions from a lot of other people about what made it worthwhile and what's worth preserving. One can't always lay differences of taste and opinion to ignorance or misunderstanding.

[Sci-Fi]

I have to go with Dennis on this one. It's less ignorance than it is a matter of taste. For example, I'm sure there are lots of people out there who consider dialogue like the following absolutely scintillating:

KARA
Morning, sir!

ADAMA
Morning Starbuck! Whaddya hear?

KARA
Nothin' but the rain.

ADAMA
Then grab your gun and put the cat out.

KARA
BOOM-cha-gah-la! BOOM-BOOM-BOOM!

ADAMA
(overlapping)
BOOM-BOOM-BOOM!

And this isn't even mentioning such gems as:

"Frack me."

Rejoinder: "Do I have to?"

But seriously -- I've been scanning over the script again. The first time through I was mainly interested in absorbing the story, but now that I'm just casually skimming through it again, I'm really shocked at just how pedestrian and uninteresting the dialogue is. And I don't just mean things like that Adama/Kara exchange. That was just silly and stupid. What surprises me is the amazing amount of "all right"s and "that was weird"s. This is bland, bland dialogue.

And in conclusion:

BOOM-cha-gah-lugga! BOOM-cha-gah-lugga!

[default]

i still agree with muffit

[Muffit]

Thanks everyone for your comments, and thanks especially to you bsgfan :).

:muffit:

[Muffit]

Hi again,

I was thinking, maybe I should revamp my analogy a bit in a more guys vein of thought, maybe that would help.

A good example of understanding what made something good is Ford's long-lived Mustang series. For 38 years Ford has shown they understand what made the original so popular. No matter how many times they have restyled it, you can always tell it's a Mustang w/o looking at the plates. It's more than just taste, it's figuring out what makes something appealing and then repeating those elements even when doing a full redesign. Sure, they could've dropped the trademark trio back lights; they could have skimped on the identifying side scoops; they could've thrown away the now legendary front grill and horse. But they didn't. They realized what key elements made it sell and kept those. Even their super cool prototype of a possible future one is unmistakably similar to the '65.

That is why I feel the new PTB do not understand what made BSG great. Because their actions show a lack of it -- giving Starbuck a sex change is just one way of alienating tons of female fans. Imagine Ford deliberately altering the Mustang so drastically that tons of fans write in and complain they won't buy it (which repeat buyers are their biggest sell).

Selling is what you want to do. Not alienating your primary buying base is a good start.

:muffit:

[Thomas P]

RGrant, Despite the fact that you're quoting out-of-context those passages which you consider most easily mocked, I consider most of the dialogue and characterisation in this script head and shoulders above anything that the writers on the original BSG were able to manage -- they varied between comic-book melodrama and the most stilted, self-conscious tv writer's notions of stirring rhetoric without ever veering too near anything resembling human conversation. I don't hold that against them -- it was the 70s and a year after Star Wars everyone in L.A. still thought that comic book heroics were the epitome of entertainment.

The problem is that Moore seems to find people, their motives and behavior rather too interesting to make him a perfect fit for most skiffy television; "Carnivalle" sounds like it may be rather more sophisticated than most of this kind of thing and given the history of the venue maybe he'll be a better fit there than squeezed in between the space vampires and the fraudulant mediums (okay, that's redundant) on SCIFI.

So, while I wouldn't call it "scintillating", I'll take Moore's writing over that stuff any day. Mock it all you like -- I've yet to read anything on these sites in the last couple of weeks persuasive that I should substitute your collective tastes for mine.

[Micheleh]

"The problem is that Moore seems to find people, their motives and behavior rather too interesting to make him a perfect fit for most skiffy television; "Carnivalle" sounds like it may be rather more sophisticated than most of this kind of thing and given the history of the venue maybe he'll be a better fit there than squeezed in between the space vampires and the fraudulant mediums (okay, that's redundant) on SCIFI.

So, while I wouldn't call it "scintillating", I'll take Moore's writing over that stuff any day. Mock it all you like -- I've yet to read anything on these sites in the last couple of weeks persuasive that I should substitute your collective tastes for mine."

Who asked you to? We aren't talking about YOU. We're talking about what WE think of Ron Moore's work. He can speak for himself. Until then, I for one will think of it what I like. You are free to think of it what you like.

Why do you feel compelled to insult everyone by implying that we don't appreciate RM's true genius beacuse we'd rather watch cheap cartoon tv, more or less? What is this going to prove, that your taste is superior? Good for you. Here's a nickel to go with it for coffee.

[SS1]

Someone oughta slap Dennis in the face with a BSG script from Tom DeSanto. DeSanto knew how to update Battlestar Galactica the right way. The way Dennis puts BSG and the fans down makes me wonder if he is a fan.

Oh and yes Dennis I have read the script. Oh and be sure to read a famous quote made by Ronald D Moore himself under my signature




S2K

[SS1]

Where are my manners?
Hello Muffit!

[Micheleh]

"Here's a nickel to go with it for coffee."

Okay, Michelle, tell the world how OLD you are! LOL! Here's five bucks for the coffee. ;)

[default]

I can same the same Warrior. I have had family and friends who were or are in the military. This includes my boyfriend. The military is not like what is being portrayed in Moore's script. I think it is a shame that Moore wrote that junk.

[Thomas P]

I have relatives and friends serving and who've served in the military as well, and spent a good deal of my career (about ten years) working as a civilian in the Pentagon; debates about how "the military" is in the abstract or as a whole are fruitless and beside the point. What fans are talking about here is an idealised and propagandistic version of military life. You think there aren't officers like "Paul Tigh" in the U.S. Navy? Okay... Individuals are individuals; yes there are alcoholics, narcissists and troublemakers in positions of responsibility (in the U.S. military, at least) to more or less the degree that they are anywhere else. Truthful fiction is primarily about people in conflict with one another, their roles and themselves.

The armed forces in my country are capable of making their own recruiting films.

[Micheleh]

"yes there are alcoholics, narcissists and troublemakers in positions of responsibility (in the U.S. military, at least) to more or less the degree that they are anywhere else....."

They aren't held up as role models, or put in command.

"Truthful fiction is primarily about people in conflict with one another, their roles and themselves."

There's a big difference between truthful conflict and overcoming adversity and settling for the lowest common denominator, and being unable to tell the difference between a charachter challenge and a charachter being just plain dysfunctional.

This all avoids the point. the point, for me at least, is that I am not ashamed of the fact that I enjoy characters who have values, and while they may face challenges, and have flaws, THE FLAWS ARE NOT THE CHARACHTER. They are who they are in spite of challenges, not because of them. Tigh in the remake doesn't have a drinking problem, he *is* one. He is a cliche, not a character. I will never believe this to be 'good' writing- I've seen much better. I will also never believe it to be worth my time.

I think ther reason I, and perhaps others, repond negatively to your posts is that they seem to say, 'this is as good as it gets, this is reality, get over it'. (We'll leave aside the whole 'I have taste and you don't' thing.) I see this a lot. I don't accept that I can't improve what I see around me, and I don't accept that RM couldn't have done a LOT better wit this script. I see a project by the numbers from someone who had little involvement and less care. I may be wrong, but that is the impression I get.

You do realise that by antagonising those who don't care for the script by these judgements that you are fueling their dislike of the project? It's one thing to say "Well I believe it has these merits...", just leave off the ".. don't you get it, you fools?" ;)

Oh, ps- talking about an 'idealised and propagandistic version of military life' in the context of 'truthful fiction' is a bit of a contradiction, don't you think?

[Sci-Fi]

Dennis,

I had some kind of weird misunderstanding of this nature with Hito a few weeks back. You said:

"Mock it all you like -- I've yet to read anything on these sites in the last couple of weeks persuasive that I should substitute your collective tastes for mine."

I don't know about other people, but when I post my opinion on one of these boards, it's simply that. My opinion. I'm not trying to "convert" you or whatever to my tastes. I didn't think what I wrote in my last post could be misconstrued as an attempted conversion.

And yes, I will mock it all I like. Dialogue like "BOOM chugga lugga, BOOM chugga lugga" deserves to be mocked, in my opinion.

And I stress that word "my."

One of the things I hate most about bboards is that people can't just express their opinions without it seeming like a war. Yes, Ron Moore's writing may be too interesting and sophisticated for my simple tastes, but after all, they're my tastes. Don't take offense at them. I didn't take offense at anything you said in your first post (your last one is a different matter). I even said you were right in your first post. It was a matter of taste, just like you said.

Just because my tastes are different than yours, you don't have to get mean.

[jewels]

Just wanted to say, I agree with Muffit's take on the matter. You have to know and respect the virtues of an existing property to make a saleable solution that makes sense with the original premises. Hope your spouse never sees this particular post, btw!! ;)

[Micheleh]

OH, ps- it cheapens the magnitute of the destruction of an entire world or worlds to merely use it as an impetus for personal crisis management. It took the destruction of mankind to get Tigh off the bottle, Lee to grow up and get over it, and Adama to live up to his position? That's justification. I don't want charachters who have to climb so much just to reach 'normal', thanks.

[default]

This script is a pile of "Junk" in my opinion and a slap in the face of the fans.

Warrior, you have the right of it. No one with those kinds of attitudes or problems would make it in the military.

I don't like seeing something that I was familiar with turned into a oversexed soap opera. I read enough of it and don't need to see it on a tv screen.

[cobrastrikelead]

Muffit u r right. If a production company could update BG as well as Ford has the Mustang, we would have one superb show. (Always had a theory that the Cylons drove around in Pintos. Might explain the attitude-problem.)

[default]

lol cobra that is a good analogy

[thomas7g]

I have to go with the prevailing point that from what we have seen sofar that this is really a horrible renovation of Galactica. People love the old show. And the new version is making alot of people cringe!

The new version is being designed for a modern Trek audience. The same kind that is tired of all the recent versions which seem to be exhausted of originality and quality writing.

The new version is being remade according to polls and studies. It totally disregards the heart and soul of the new show.

To quote Ken's thread and Star Trek:The Wrath Of Kahn:

"What would happen if--? Suppose this was used where life already existed?"
"It would destroy such life in favor of it's new matrix."
"It's new matrix?? My God man, you're talking about it's new matrix, I'm talking about UNIVERSAL Armaggeddon!"
"I was not attempting to discuss it's moral implications, Doctor."

There is only two things that Moore and Universal even looked at when they tried to understand Galactica: polls of people who mostly don't remember galactica and the DVD. And sampling only 2 hours of an entire YEAR of episodes is a poor sample of an entire series. Who is foolish enough to believe you can understand the significance of a story by only reading the first chapter?

:/:

And I agree the new characters are really annoying compared to the old ones.

Its like revisioning Trek. And to create story tension they have Kirk and Spock hate each other and Bones is a wife beating drunkard.

Its the deep bond between three noble characters that made the old trek. It was the deep bond between three noble characters that made the old Galactica.

[thomas7g]

And I agree the new characters are really annoying compared to the old ones.

Its like revisioning Trek. And to create story tension they have Kirk and Spock hate each other and Bones is a wife beating drunkard.

Its the deep bond between three noble characters that made the old trek. It was the deep bond between three noble characters that made the old Galactica.

[jewels]

Originally posted by thomas7g
....And sampling only 2 hours of an entire YEAR of episodes is a poor sample of an entire series. Who is foolish enough to believe you can understand the significance of a story by only reading the first chapter?

And I agree the new characters are really annoying compared to the old ones.

Its like revisioning Trek. And to create story tension they have Kirk and Spock hate each other and Bones is a wife beating drunkard.

Its the deep bond between three noble characters that made the old trek. It was the deep bond between three noble characters that made the old Galactica.

Well said Thomas!!! :oreo:
jewels