Genocide better than sex?

[Hito]

I am puzzled as to why people here have less problem having children watch the genocide of a species (humanity) at the hands of the cylons, but get bent out of shape at the thought of a little PG rated bump and grind?

[cravenimage]

It depends on the subject matter. If you pay your money for a ticket to see a movie about World War II, you might expect to see some genocide. Why is it appropriate? Because that is what the subject matter is about. Same for Battlestar Galactica. It is pretty hard to tell the story of 13 colonies (excuse me, 13 measly little "colonetts" now) being destroyed by invading machines without a little genocide thrown in, Hito. As for the sex, Hell, I don't have a problem with sex in a script. But from the sound of things, sex is about the only action we are going to see in Battlestar Galactica. No epic space battles showing the Battlestars being destroyed. No major scenes of the colonettes being attacked. No discernible resemblance to the Battlestar Galactica most of us love. The problem with sex in this script is that there is very little else of interest, from the sound of it. As a viewer, I guess I just get tired of titillation being the only thing scribes can come up with to catch my interest. It shows a lack of imagination and a lack of faith in the audience’s ability to appreciate genuine storytelling. This sounds nothing like the Battlestar Galactica I once enjoyed watching.

[thomas7g]

first of all this is america (for most of us) and we naturally are more offended by sex than violence in film.

But mostly, in galactica genocide IS this horrible thing. Mankind is devastated. And the story is how mankind survives this tragedy. But in Moore's BG, a slutty cylon f***ing anyone on sight is treated as a cool thing, as if we should be impressed. The fact that he treats us as if we would drool at this is insulting. I find offense that he would take something I like, throw in some sluts, and treat me like I SHOULD like it better that way.

Its offensive to tell me that. Its arrogant to tell me I am wrong about my own tastes.

:mad:

[The Blue Mule]

Sex for those who actually can feel love and warmth is a deeply personal thing and has no place in a sci fi setting,is uncalled for,it's empty, and quite frankly arouses as much pleasure as looking at a bowl of sour milk, where as the Genocide idea is attached to an action/adventure premiss where we want to care for a character or even dislike a character, and hopefully with a deft writer watch the characters change and learn from their actions.
No excuse for sex in films, just emply the careing , the love, the intamacy. Its not hard for a real writer to express himself with those parameters or terms, but todays producers think, we like to watch endless minutes of huffing and puffing,.......well maybe they are right some simple minded gimboids do like to watch false sex.

Sex in films,...No Thanks, if i want to witness sex attached to a story , I'll rent a porno. Hell sex in Anime or in american animation (Heavy Metal) is even more absurd. When I worked for Pheonix Entertainment in Japan I worked as an assistant animator(Dogha)on a homosexual rape and screw, mecha abbound, robot fighting epic, which in all honesty aside from the geogous visuals and designes were embarrassing and down right laughable. Yes it paid the bills of the super talents that sat around me, (and trust me I wasnt worth squat compared to them) but they told me they rather work on Giant Robo(Vol.7 was next up for the company to do) then the overproduced novelty worn, tired, and repulsive crap that satuarated the OVA market in the 80's

Theres nothing wrong with sexy characters on screen, but its more suductive(at least to me) to have the character smart, intelligent, mature, and flaunts his or her sultry manerisims in a way that works within the structure of the script.
I don't know as a child or a teenager i never said i wanted more sex from a film, I guess i just demanded more from movie industry.

Just can't stop shaking my head at the current state of films today, and sci fi in particular.
Just call me weird but how about more indepth character drama in films today then a technology,driven narritive that in all fairness will look outdated in 10 years time anyway, just enough time for the Chrome Cylons to devise and implement human cylons in our hollywood,..Errrr our soceity.

Sorry about calling anyone a gimboid!

Laters

Rich

[Sci-Fi]

The quickest, simplest answer:

You can't tell this story of a holocaust without violence. You can tell it without sex.

The original show had plenty of sexual situations -- the difference is, they were implied. We didn't have to actually hear the squeaking bedsprings. We can imagine them having sex behind closed doors. What we don't want to imagine are the space battles, the destruction of the fleets and the bombing of the cities.

[Stevew]

Agree 100% Rich
Steve:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[jewels]

Agree with Rich (well stated!) and Rgrant.

And the genocide might be more acceptable because we grew up with that threat coming from ourselves: in a time period when all it took was some lunatic putting codes in correctly and within 30min. you could have had 4-5 times more nukes than it took to wipe out the planet, airborne and starting to hit targets. (I watch Experiment in Terra today and wonder if that's why, four years after it ran, I did a paper on "nuclear freeze".)

jewels

[Hito]

Sorry but to me it just seemed as if a lot of the posting about the psudo-erotic elements of the new sounded like the old stereotype of the asexual sci-fi nerd.
I dont think you can pick up a pierce of real science fiction from one of the great arthurs (Heinlein, Herbert, Ellison, Barnes ect.)and not find a sexual element.
That is real science fiction. Not the stuff that passes for it on TV these days.
I shudder to think what fan reaction would have been if Kara “starbuck” Thrace had remained a womanizing rogue even after the gender change.
Moore’d prolly have been lynched.

To me personally I feel like there is a place in adult science fiction for the exploration of sensuality/sexuality as long as it remains within the context of the story and not gratuitous. Which at this moment I don’t feel this new Galactica is.
From what I know of said scenes of sex they actually lend to the mythological element, which some fans complain, is no longer present.
I think Moore is exploring the theme basically that empires have fallen because men of great power or influence could not resist the lure of lust & sex.
Or that men decadent in their excesses are prone to corruption.
Uther & Arthur pendragon, Anthony, Barron Harkonen and others all succumbed to their lust and empires were destroyed for it.
The place where I might find that theme objectionable is how it cast women in the role of the evil untrustworthy temptress.

The only scene I have heard described that does not seem to fit this pattern is this rape scene. But since I don’t know the context in which it occurs I cant make a judgment on it till I am able to read or see it for myself.
I may be giving Mr. Moore too much credit or reading to much into the little I know but we will see for sure next year.

Prehaps I should have said near or attempted genocide instead.
But even against the backdrop of suffering people will turn to intimacy as a means of escape or comfort or an attempt to return to at least a little peace of normalcy.

[Flamingo Girl]

Not that my 2 cents makes any difference, but I know a lot of people who have sex, but I've never seen any of them doing it. I knew my parents did, but I didn't see that. Frankly, if I wanted to see people having sex, I have a VCR, and a nearby video store.
I'm not condoning violence, but there are many ways to view fighting, BSG uses it to illustrate the human drive for survival. Frankly I prefer to see us battling machines rather than each other for a change.

[Hito]

We dont actualy see people in the military fighting
does that mean u dont want to see the action on the screen?
If i am going to accept seeing somthing descructive. (i dont have a problem with fantacy violence)
Then i have to be able to accept somthing procreative IE sexuality/sensuality.
At least then there is balance

[michaelfaries]

I have issues with potential BG licensing, in particular:

"Battlestar Galactica" (remake) mini-series toys that are licensed from Vivendi Universal/Universal properties and aimed at the childrens' market. (Yes, FOX has promoted "Aliens" toy merchandise to children years back, which I found distasteful.) The sex/sexual acts within this show is not hinted at; they are seen. They may be part of the storyline and have justifications per the writer.

Yes, I sound like a total prude. (Not true.) I have issue with toy merchandising if marketed towards children, though, for something which children shouldn't be watching.

I guess we won't know until 2003/2004 if this show airs -- and if merchandise is released.

Michael
:colwar:

[KJ]

Ohhhhh Baltar,....hhmmmmm Cylon 6 oh baby! Er No we don't want "Porn Star Baltar", but "Judas Baltar" instead. We can agree to disagree but hell no, Thomas7g is right all fans are on the same wavelength don't complain just because the same fans speak out at the same time with powerful voices aimed at the source of the chaos!

RGrant please go back to "Burns avatar" not cheezy hack "No balls for Starbuck" Moore avatar! The man is a "Never was" rather than a "has been" and doesn't deserve any avatars. To quote the comic book guy from the Simpsons "Worse sci-fi script remake idea EVER"

KJ

Humping Cylons whats next, pretty in pink Cylons too.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Stevew]

Explicite sex simply is not needed in BSG
S:)

[Hito]

technicaly neither is space combat.
all that is *needed* is some one on the bridge saying the bad guy is coming and then to cut to the end of the battle and have some one say we won or we lost.

but i bet that wouldnt go over too well considering how people feel about not getting to see the fleed sacked this time around.

[Hito]

U dont need any thing in any fiction asside from the actors.
Just like in theater

[michaelfaries]

re: genocide and sex within the new show.

Genocide, even global destruction, isn't something which most people can wrap their thoughts around and truly comprehend. It's beyond simple comprehension.

For the overall "Battlestar Galactica" story to work, the Colonials must flee their homeworld. The devastation wrought by nuclear attacks is something which modern day audiences can understand. I do have an issue with children watching the destruction of an entire race (even a fictional one). When the original series debuted in 1978, this 11 year old (almost 12) dealt with the topic. The subject wasn't glossed over then (nor is it within the current remake script).

It is an ugly topic.

Cruelty, betrayal, hatred, violence and murder are some of the elements which children must establish the right from wrong, wrong from right in their lives and their beliefs. A child (hopefully) understands fundamental right from wrong in their early lives; this reinforces the fact that there is "good" and "evil" -- and the consequences of both. Genocide is WRONG. While I'm not thrilled to give my children a specific lesson on genocide, they will eventually learn about this. The attrocities of Nazi Germany during World War II are but one example of many with our history that show this evil. "Battlestar Galactica" gives another aspect of this.

Children, however, are not mentally or physically ready to handle sex. There are laws in place to protect children. In fact, sex isn't easily explained within the other context above. Therefore, I can understand viewers watching/being okay with the attempted genocide (distinguishing right from wrong), but not the sexual elements.

My two cubits worth,
Michael
:colwar:

[thomas7g]

In this new galactica, slutty is cool. That's kinda offensive. I don't care if they make a brand new original show with T&A. But I do care that they would screw with Battlestar Galactica.

Genocide has been and always will be seen as something horrible in the show. Which is why it isn't bothering us.

Imagine if George Lucas tried to stick in this crap into Star Wars. The media would go nuts.

Not that we are being a prude, its just that George Lucas wouldn't show a girl giving head in Star Wars. He's above the need to add that kind of crap.

Concentrate on the established relationships of galactica. There is alot of material left there. That is the heart of the show.

[Stevew]

Hito
I think you have missed the point of BSG
S:confused:

[DaveC001]

Michael- love the avatar!

[Hito]

What exactly is the point i have missed?
I hear newcomers geting told that a lot too and as someone who was there to see the theatrical release with my family, the guy who ran around the neighborhood with my home made viper/football helmet complete with cardboard colonial bird and glob of battlestar galactica space glow putty and my lego viper cuz i couldnt affoard the real deal, Pretending i was starbuck in my viper CORA blowing the hell out of the clay cylon fighters i had made diging up my grammas front yard...
I want to see if i can sum up just what the point of BSG was.

The original BSG was a story about comaradery and adventure, loss and pain.
Set against the backdrop of a fleed of the last survivirs of the human race.
It was about the struggle of those last bits of humanity against a nearly omnipotent adversery.
It was about the ability and will of humanity to survive and unify even under the the best and worst of circumstnaces.
With liberal doses of judeo christian, egyption and greko roman mythology to add a little depth and creativity.

The other point of BSG was to make the studio money and sell a tonne of merchandise.

[Hito]

And i dont want people to think i am a moore booster because i am rasing these points.
I am simply willing to give his vision a chance because i know what he is capable off just like I've been behind DeSantos when he was persona nongrata because i knew what he was capable off after x men and i might have been behind hatch had i ever seen what he was capable of

[KJ]

Don't worry Hito we understand :cool:

[Stevew]

""The original BSG was a story about comaradery and adventure, loss and pain.
Set against the backdrop of a fleed of the last survivirs of the human race.
It was about the struggle of those last bits of humanity against a nearly omnipotent adversery.
It was about the ability and will of humanity to survive and unify even under the the best and worst of circumstnaces.
With liberal doses of judeo christian, egyption and greko roman mythology to add a little depth and creativity.""

Yes this was the point of BSG and it was told without explicit sex. It can be brought up to date without resorting to that. Richards trailer is just that and a good start. RDM's version should be called something different.
S:D

[michaelfaries]

Btw, sex does sell science fiction, even sci-fi remakes. See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000068V9S/battlestarpegasu as one example.

Michael
:colwar:

[thomas7g]

I think the real offense here, is that the sex and titilation is being used as flash and style instead of going for substance.

[michaelfaries]

Originally posted by Hito
And i dont want people to think i am a moore booster because i am rasing these points.
I definitely don't. You're merely sharing your point of view; I appreciate the fact that you're injecting something constructive for us to consider/debate. Frankly, I wouldn't care if you are a Moore supporter or non-supporter. It's how you handle yourself here that matters most.

Then again, I am telling this to a moderator. (hehe)

Michael
:colwar:

[KJ]

Yeah mike, well in my humble opinon they should ease up a little, didn't qmodo have a go about the atmosphere on CF on the sci-fi Bboards a little while ago? Also since we're so open about it, we might as well reveal trolls like Smig and maybe Languatron hide here under everyones noses?!

No i won't name names, but i've had my theories which have panned out and when they get to realise old KJ and others posters aren't going away over there i'll talk more about it! Right now though i prefer the talkative style of debates here, and you're right whether it be pro-continuation or remake there are ways of talking and going about things.

But right now the fansbase is split and fired up over this, best not to play out any selfrightousness and let the civil arguements here and the angry ones over there play out untill they die down.

:(

[thomas7g]

My friend's brother had a shirt that said:

GENOCIDE
HOMICIDE
SUICIDE
RIVERSIDE

If you've know anyone who had to live in Riverside I'm sure you get the joke. Though Its not as bad as it once was. :)

[Sci-Fi]

That Snow Miser/Lucifer avatar is hilarious! Lucifer always was cool as an icycle. He's Mister Ten Below. Now he's even cooler.

Now that I look closer, Heat Miser actually resembles Baltar a bit. They're both evil and on the chubby side.

[vmnjn]

Actually Genocide and Intimacy were both only implied in the original BG. Sex for the sake of domination and corruption was not implied. The Want of Sex for the sake of showing just how pathetic the human race, overall, really is was not implied. I have enjoyed Panama and Amsterdam and all the darker desires they let me satisfy. Should I write a scifi script involving Catholic High School girls in Panama or Red Light District orgies in the Netherlands?

Doesn't the thought of seeing this on your TV for the sake of explaining my lack of higher morality and spicing up a story about my military career seem disturbing? Yes it happened, but it would not add good elements to the story. It would only remind many men and women of parts of their lives they would, hopefully, be trying to keep in the past.

Just typing about this bothers me. Now let's mix those themes of lust and corruption into a science fiction story aimed at the entire family. With toys available for your kids next Christmas. Now I am making myself nauseaus.

What about other SciFi shows?
Farscape has a "french" leather, lace, and a little whip styled sexuality about it. Or at least that is what the show "reminds" me of. Lexx has an "italian" style but with far more graphic and desperate undertones. Like a tour thru the more adult portions of Thailand.

The original Battlestar Galactica did not indulge in the subject enough to even develop a particular "flavor." The closet comparison would be to the TV comedies of the late 70s and early 80s.

BG:Redo from what has been described has a "japanese" hardcore feel to it. Lust and Disgust thrown in your face just to prove they can.

Battlestar Galactica is in many ways a story of hope. Humanity has suffered greatly and is trying to find help and safety among distant kin. Along the way love blossoms and the people discover more about themselves and their needs. Not Wants but Needs. Not Sex but Love and homorous intimacy is implied in the "family oriented" original series. The Cylons that pursued these refugees were portrayed as oppresors not defilers.

I am using the word defiler as describes a sexual darkness so common in the harder porn and poorer countries that you can find today.

The original series did not portray the death camps the Cylons probably setup on the colonies. The original BG did not show "incinerators" that were probably used to clean up the mess of flesh. It was implied only.

Should BG:Redo show futuristic death camps or the "harvesting" of colonials so we can have a more realistic "family" oriented scifi experience?

What disturbs me most about BG:Redo is that Moore seems to be trying make a voyeuristic BG. Lets see...

( Conversation Begins )
Will it have sex? Sex, oh yeah baby, corruption, Monica Lewinsky on a grand scale. Got to have some rape, just because they can the Cylons must be "trying some colonial." Mix in a little death camp action, incinerators, starvation, and more rape. Now I(Moore) am making a realistic scifi experience. Wait a minute, can't have sound in space so we take that out. That will save some money. Also no gravity in space. What? Too expensive to be that realistic? Okay so I guess I can keep the artificial gravity and FTL ships. The porn is okay though? Yeah, I know there are alot of actresses out there desperate enough to do it sleazy for cheap.
( Conversation Ends... Thank God )

Do you want to sit down with some popcorn and watch this with your eight year old son/daughter? As some are saying this show is aimed at making a new generation of fans. It will be hard to make those fans if parents won't let their children watch it. It will also be hard if the parental control chips in their planned audiences TVs blank the show out.

I will watch BG:Redo without my family present. Not to take a trip down porno memory lane, but out of a forlorn hope that they don't screw BG up to badly. If it is any resemblance to the more graphic portions of Moore's script. I will not spend a penny on any of its merchandise for my immediate or extended family. I will even not purchase using BG labeling. No "Spinal Glow Cylon Slut Free with your Happy Meal" for my kids.

I just hope that one day me and the wife don't discuss renting the "Uncensored Cut of BG:Redo" to look for new sexual positions.

I know it sounds like I am over reacting but it feels like another attempt by TV companies to cover desperate marketing by using an established name for easier product recognition. Its just because the audience is "slowly" getting smarter they are adding "sexual tension" to draw the dumber ones in.

[captmiloman]

If this were a mini-series about the porn industry, than sex would be important to the plot, but it's not. It's about the human race's struggle for survival. If sex is refered to, but not actually shown, I have no problem with that. But do I want to see it happen in this production? No. Just my $0.02 worth.

[dah66]

On Christmas Day, I was telling my brother in-law about the remake and described the Baltar/Number 6 domination scene. I didn't realize that my eleven year old daughter was in the room. Before I could finish talking, she interrupted me and said "Dad, you're sick" and left the room. It bothers me that this production will not be fit for children.

I was eleven when Galactica premiered and it was suitable for me to watch. It was a family show and I was hoping it would come back as such. I wanted to share it with my daughter, but that will not be the case.

My biggest concern about a remake is that we would once again have to see the destruction of the colonies. The original series handled this well, but this is a different era, a harsher, more explicit era. Yes, this will resonate in our post 9/11 society, but is this really the best way to explore the themes of that event? Personally, I don't think so. It seems like the genocide and sexual elements exist only for reasons of exploitation.

This is a disappointment.

Dave