Going Out On A Limb.....

[WarMachine]

Greets All,

I am going to say up front that I am sticking my neck out on this one.

I want it understood from the very start that what follows are my own personal opinions, nothing more. I have no contact with either Universal, the Sci-Fi Channel, Richard Hatch or Glen Larsen in any way, shape or form.

That said.....

There have been comments from time to time on how RH has "deserted" or "back-stabbed" the CBSG fan-base over a certain unmentionable thing. I think this is being very disingenuous -- in fact, I think he wasn't given a lot of choice. Allow me to explain.

I think that RH got himself into a world of trouble with his "Second Coming" trailer. Spending your own money to do a fan film, then showing it for free around the convention circuit is one thing..."shopping it" to industry execs without the permission of all entites with IPs is asking for trouble.

I don't think that anyone moved on him initially, however, as at first it seemed like there might actually be a continuation rather than a radical "reimagining"; once that fell through, and a groudswell of opposition began building among the CBSG fan-base, TSC was ressurrected as a way to encourage a split in the fan-base by bring RH into the certain unmentionable thing.

Follow the logic: RH comes out swinging in opposition to the "re-imagining"; as the show is picked up for series-running, RH suddenly does an about-face. Why? What possible benefit is there? None: whatever paycheck he's getting from Skiffy, and whatever fan mail he gets from the Black Squaddies pales in comparison to the hate mail he'll get from this side of the aisle. He's doing just fine, trying to sell "Magellan" and lobbying for a continuation.

The "beauty" of this, form the POV of GL/Universal/Skiffy, is that RH can't say a word about it: if he talks, the deal is off and he gets sued for major copyright infringment. As long as he sucks it up and takes it, all he has to deal with is the "old-skool" fans' hatred.

RH's volte-face always bugged me, and I have suspected that there is/was something behind it. It isn't money -- that's nothing but chump-change. But for the "unholy trinity", it might save their "baby".

Again, I have absolutely Z-E-R-O in the way of proof, but this is the only thing that makes sense to me...and I don't think I'm alone - I'm just the first one to say it out loud.....

[martok2112]

Well, I for one am simply sick of the hatred and vitriol that many fans have spewed toward him for his change of heart.

I will not go into details, as this kinda skirts around the borders of TNS discussion.

I do know that a lot of fans, while perhaps being miffed about it, do not begrudge the guy for needing to make a paycheck.

The ones who have turned on him are the ones who cannot stomach the idea of him embracing radically different concept.

Some have even suggested that if RH had any honor or scruples at all, he would've stuck to his guns regarding TOS and TSC. Felgercarb. This is NOT about honor or scruples. This is about making a frakkin' living. Anyone who thinks this is about honor and scruples is taking this thing WAY too frakkin' seriously.

All I can say is, we're all just human beings. We do what we must to survive. I admire RH's bravery and magnanimity in the face of some, (not ALL) of the fanbase's hatred. He's a far bigger man than those folks.

That's all I have to say. :)

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[AJMarks]

I harbor no ill will towards Richard Hatch. Personally I hope he's sucking as much money from TNS as he can. :salute:

[Centurion Draco]

We came to within a hairs breadth of getting the kind of continuation that we wanted, and a big part of that was the simply superhuman efforts of Richard.
He's lost something like $60,000 on trying to get our show the kind of continuation it deserves. He's re-mortaged his house, risked his future financial security and done 500% more than anyone could have ever expected to keep the dream alive.
People mock him for always being available for conventions and such. They should be bloody ashamed! If only all 'stars' had such loyalty to their fans!
He's an amazing bloke, and if he wants to work on RDMs show, then good on him!
He's not Apollo in it, it's got no connection with our beloved classic, and won't affect a continuation if it happens.
Let anyone who wants to point the finger at Richard do 1% of the amount he has for the 'scene' first.

The man is an honest to god fracking hero!

[KamikazeAthena]

I second Centurion Draco's words.

Let me add, Richard stated at a con I heard him speak at what a good role he had in the new show. He also talked a lot about the art of acting and how hard it is to get a good role.

After seeing the little I have of him in GINO, I have no ill feelings. I would have taken to role too.

[BST]

WarMachine,

I wish that you hadn't tested the strength of that limb.

;)

At any rate, this is a fair discussion topic and folks should be able to freely express their feelings, WITH ONE PROVISO:

One thing we DO NOT allow on these boards is attacks on an individual, be it by way of direct affront or snide comments about his/her opinion or belief. Feel free to discuss your differences, but take pains not to be insulting about it.

Source: FAQ Section, Rules and Conduct Guidelines, item# 1


This, especially, applies to those individuals who may NOT be here to "defend themselves".

*******

Now, that the boundaries have been established and since this IS a fair discussion topic, I'll take my turn on the soapbox.

...

For about 20 years, folks had been clamoring for a continuation to the Battlestar Galactica story. They signed petitions, went to conventions, and filled message boards with their thoughts, feelings, hopes and desires.

There was one person, who was literally swept up in this 'movement' and was so overwhelmed with the continued interest for a 20 year-old show that ran for 1 season, that he added his name to the chorus. That one person was Richard Hatch. By joining in with that chorus, though, he assumed the mantle of de facto leader of the Continuation Movement. He became the torch bearer for those folks who wished to see a continuation of the story that Larson penned 20 years prior.

The only problem is that he had no controllling interest in Battlestar Galactica. Universal held the rights to any TV-based show while Glen Larson held the rights to any theatre-based version of the show. Those same conditions exist today. In essence, Richard was just like any of us, a fan of the show, but one with more assets like name recognition, visibility, and industry contacts.

Well, he used those assets to put together the trailer known as "BG: The Second Coming". He arranged for financing, in part, by taking out another mortgage on his home. He gained the cooperation of the Screen Actors Guild, for the production to be done, pro bono, with the provision that it could only be shown at private settings. Also, no economic gain could be made from it or he would be liable for paying the actors and production crew for their participation in the venture.

Given the fact that he did NOT have any controlling interest in Galactica, what was his motivation for doing the trailer? To give the folks a rallying point? To prod Larson and/or Universal into dusting off the big G? To somehow gain control of the franchise himself? My thoughts are that some combination of those three items may have been the motivation.

At any rate, it was done. Based on the reception to its showing at the various conventions, Richard had some tangible evidence for proving that there was an existing groundswell of support for the show. He ran with this as far and for as long as he could.

The combination of the "re-imagined" venture by Sci-Fi and the low turnout for Galactcicon 2003 pretty much spelled the 'end' of the movement. It was at Galacticon where Richard and Ron Moore met and, among other things, discussed Galactica.

Soon after the mini-series aired, Moore approached Richard and offered him the role of Tom Zarek. For Richard, it was an opportunity to get 'back in the business' and become gainfully employed in his chosen profession. It was an opportunity to gain some compensation for the expenses that he single-handedly incurred in the Continuation Movement. And it was an opportunity to show his ability to be reasonable and accepting real-life circumstances instead of being viewed as a malcontent prima-donna wanting it "his way or the highway'.


Do I hold him in contempt for doing this? NO
Do I wish that he had chosen something else to launch a comeback? Perhaps, if that something else was actually being offered to him.

Do I consider him a traitor? HELL NO!!

Bottom line: While I absolutely do not devalue any effort that anyone has made on behalf of a Continuation effort, I also recognize that Richard, single-handedly, did more to bring the big G back than the rest of us COMBINED.

Before we cast critical glances toward the man, we would do well to acknowledge the positive efforts that he has made toward fulfilling our hopes and dreams.


I hold him in the same high regard as was evident before the new show and offer him my heartfelt thanks.

BST

:salute:

[TwoBrainedCylon]

WarMachine,

Richard did not accept his latest acting job because of any sort of trouble through The Second Coming or otherwise. The damage that did was entirely to his personal reputation. There were no legal issues or studio "blackmail" if that is the understanding. He accepted that job entirely of his own choice.

I don't believe Richard lost anywhere near the money that is being claimed. As I recall, his Line of Credit funding was somewhere around $18,000. He has made much of this back through the intangibles. Firstly, it did get the show recognized and you could argue that without it, the other efforts would have failed. Regardless, it made him more of a convention star and let him sell more autographs, pictures, and the rest. In some ways, you could consider it personal advertising. If someone is claiming that The Second Coming cost $60,000 then I have to presume that such a figure includes the technicians and actors time. Most (if not all) of this was donated.

Richard does seem to like playing Zarek. He's an actor who took an acting job. His status is different because he told so many others to "keep the faith" and then joined what seems to be the strongest force working against a continuation of the original series. Some won't forgive him for that. I don't hold it against him but really believe that when he did this, he abandoned his postiion as "the leader" of any continuation efforts. I've told him that in a face-to-face conversation. He didn't like it but he seemed to understand where I was coming from and what logic lay behind it.

Having said that, Richard is still a very strong supporter of any continuation effort and I think considering him a "traitor" or enemy of any kind is a huge mistake.



Sandy


EDIT: I see BST beat me to the punch.

[Eric Paddon]

I do not consider Richard a traitor. But I do have a not overly positive view of him based on my belief that his interest in Galactica has always been first and foremost about his own interests only, and that means that what's good for the fanbase of TOS and for that matter for a continuation has not always dovetailed with his interests. It's not that I begrudge Richard for looking out for his own interests first, but I don't care for the fact that this has been camouflaged at times underneath a facade of him being the biggest champion for a continuation effort.

To me, Richard has two strikes against him for things that have nothing to do with the acting job he has taken. First, I have never enjoyed the Galactica novels that have his name, and I feel that they did not do the fanbase of TOS any favors with their total failure to measure up to some basic standards of storytelling and regard for continuity. The badness of those novels explains entirely why I was tepid to the idea of any continuation project headed by him, because I just had no confidence in a good story emerging from him based on his novels.

Second, Richard also openly ran down the DeSanto project on his website by saying that the DeSanto project would only be showing "token" respect for the original series. I can't speak for others, but I do know that reading that statement did influence my own tepid lack of enthusiasm for DeSanto when that was being announced. It wasn't until after the fact, and after the DeSanto project was dead that I learned that this characterization of Richard's did DeSanto and Singer an injustice. The real reason why Richard had such a negative view of the project was beacuse DeSanto didn't come up with a good acting role for him in it. So instead of being honest about that, he instead made statements that I believe tried to turn off the fanbase toward the idea of the DeSanto project, and I know that in my case, he succeeded.

Now, when Richard makes statements praising what Moore has done, that doesn't sit well with me in light of the negative comments he made about DeSanto's project. If he were candid and just said it was all about looking for his own interests only, even if that meant the fans of TOS had to be disappointed, I could respect that a lot easier. But what doesn't sit well with me is the thought of having been played for a sucker in terms of how I should have been reacting to the DeSanto project while it was in development based on his own public comments that suggested something that wasn't true. Because I can only wonder how many other TOS fans out there didn't know any better thanks to reading Richard's denunciations of the project while it was in development, and thus weren't willing to lend it the kind of support it should have gotten.

Just my two cubits.

[WarMachine]

BST: Sorry! Seriously...I thought long and hard before posting that.

To Everyone: I want to correct what many may feel is an attack on my part against RH -- it is not. My concern is that I had a hard time understanding the logic behind it, as I've never seen RH in that much of a "mercenary" light.

I was simply bothered by what I saw as the occasional newbie attack on RH, and wanted to come out with my own explanation for it.

As to RH torpedoing the De Santos production, I know nothing about it, so I can't speak to it.

While RH isn't exactly my most favorite actor, I do respect him as an actor.

Just wanted to clarify that.........

[Eric Paddon]

This is what Richard said on his website at the time, with the key passage in bold, June 23, 2001.



"Hi everyone,

I just thought that I would share a few thoughts and update all of you on what's going on with myself and Battlestar Galactica. It's been a relatively quiet time after all the dramatic news concerning the new proposed Battlestar Galactica series.

I have read a few articles from Bryan Singer and have heard little bits of heresay from various parties. However, the pipeline for breaking news seems to have been turned off for the time being. It seems to me that if we are not hearing anything, then either there is nothing to report -- or they don't want us to know what's going on. After such a strong negative response from the fans concerning the direction the studios originally wanted to take Battlestar Galactica in, I would have to think that they must have realized that if they were going to follow their own agenda, they better do it in secret. Nobody wants to be second guessed -- and I'm sure that they think that they know better than the fans what direction the show should go in.

They talk about honoring the original show, but everything I hear tells me that they have no real intention of following through on that promise other than in a token way, which is how the studios always try to appease the fans and at the same time take advantage of the marketing value of using a few characters from the original series. Who knows maybe they will come up with a great show and blow everybody away with their creative vision for Battlestar Galactica, maybe they won't. No matter what happens, I personally would like to see Battlestar succeed because it's a great epic story with a lot of heart -- and it deserves a real chance to fly. My fear is, if Battlestar Galactica doesn't succeed, they will blame Battlestar itself and not the creative vision behind it. The studios will just say that if Bryan Singer and Tom DeSanto can't make Battlestar Galactica successful, then nobody can. "

[Centurion Draco]

Warmachine:

I wasn't attacking you, I hope you didn't think that was the case. I realise your comments are not anti Richard.
I think that there is a definate element of 'Richard bashing' that goes on, but that it is mostly a bit 'uninformed' and were people more aware of his contributions, they might see it differently.
I just like to 'voice' my part of the pro-side is all :)

[BST]

I do not consider Richard a traitor. But I do have a not overly positive view of him based on my belief that his interest in Galactica has always been first and foremost about his own interests only, and that means that what's good for the fanbase of TOS and for that matter for a continuation has not always dovetailed with his interests. It's not that I begrudge Richard for looking out for his own interests first, but I don't care for the fact that this has been camouflaged at times underneath a facade of him being the biggest champion for a continuation effort.

To me, Richard has two strikes against him for things that have nothing to do with the acting job he has taken. First, I have never enjoyed the Galactica novels that have his name, and I feel that they did not do the fanbase of TOS any favors with their total failure to measure up to some basic standards of storytelling and regard for continuity. The badness of those novels explains entirely why I was tepid to the idea of any continuation project headed by him, because I just had no confidence in a good story emerging from him based on his novels.

Second, Richard also openly ran down the DeSanto project on his website by saying that the DeSanto project would only be showing "token" respect for the original series. I can't speak for others, but I do know that reading that statement did influence my own tepid lack of enthusiasm for DeSanto when that was being announced. It wasn't until after the fact, and after the DeSanto project was dead that I learned that this characterization of Richard's did DeSanto and Singer an injustice. The real reason why Richard had such a negative view of the project was beacuse DeSanto didn't come up with a good acting role for him in it. So instead of being honest about that, he instead made statements that I believe tried to turn off the fanbase toward the idea of the DeSanto project, and I know that in my case, he succeeded.

Now, when Richard makes statements praising what Moore has done, that doesn't sit well with me in light of the negative comments he made about DeSanto's project. If he were candid and just said it was all about looking for his own interests only, even if that meant the fans of TOS had to be disappointed, I could respect that a lot easier. But what doesn't sit well with me is the thought of having been played for a sucker in terms of how I should have been reacting to the DeSanto project while it was in development based on his own public comments that suggested something that wasn't true. Because I can only wonder how many other TOS fans out there didn't know any better thanks to reading Richard's denunciations of the project while it was in development, and thus weren't willing to lend it the kind of support it should have gotten.

Just my two cubits.

Eric,

There are those who would view your remarks as little more than 'sour grapes', if you don't, at least, give the man a nod for the good things that he did.

[Dawg]

Frankly, I think the good Richard did for keeping Galactica in view goes without saying. I think the fact that he did more than anyone else could do to increase its visibility (with the exception of Universal and Larson themselves, who didn't until Richard kicked 'em in the astrum) is common knowlege - he was the standard-bearer for a goodly number of years.

But I agree with Sandy - he gave up that role in 'fandom' when he embraced the Zarek role. He now has the same credibility (for lack of a better word) as any other fan who wants to see a continuation.

His books may not have followed canon religiously - but they did retain the flavor of the universe, and that's no small thing.

So all things considered I think to villify him for accepting a GINO role is very much mistaken, even if he did willingly abdicate any kind of leadership or cheerleader role in the effort to promote a continuation of the BSG universe. I certainly understand his reasons for taking that part - but I don't look to him for any kind of BSG input.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Eric Paddon]

Well Pete, I don't know where the "sour grapes" is. I guess the problem for me is that in the total picture of things, I just didn't see enough good things, though I'll admit I'm at a disadvantage in some respects because I've never seen his trailer. My judgment has largely been based on the novels, which I did not like, and there were also some impressions of him that were passed along by friends of mine who met him at some conventions that were not overwhelmingly favorable either (and I won't be elaborating on that in this setting). That said, it was *because* he at least was focusing on the importance of a continuation having to have the actors and characters of TOS back, was why I still paid attention to what he had to say, and why ultimately when he made his remarks about DeSanto and Singer, that I gave them such credence that I wasn't heads-up on just what that project was turning into before it got shut down, or else I would have been trying to mobilize a lot of people I know to give their backing to DeSanto/Singer. That's again, only speaking for how things unfolded from my vantage point during that period.

[BST]

I know and I wasn't trying to belittle your opinion but, from what I read, all that I saw was negative.

But, as we all know, perception is the key. 2 different people can view the same thing and walk away with 2 decidedly different interpretations. Neither can be faulted for that.


;)

[Lara]

I do not consider RH either as a hero/god or a villan/demon, but somewhere in the middle. A public figure who often wears his heart on his sleeve, and doubtlessly, passionately believes his thoughts of the moment. He is also an actor & author, making a living by telling stories, and a motivational speaker who is skilled at riasing support for a cause..

He's done some wonderful things for BSG, absolutely, but he's also done some unfortunate things, which only proves he is a man of changing passions, which magnified by the lens of public exposure., can quickly start a brush fire that sweeps the boards

The fleeting 'betrayal' I felt had to be put into perspective pretty quickly at the time. It was hard, but necessary, to take the emotion out of it. It broke my heart, but a cool head had to prevail.
Now we can have the sort of discussion this thread currently is: a discussion in fact and logic, among mature adults.

Cheers,
Lara

[martok2112]

We came to within a hairs breadth of getting the kind of continuation that we wanted, and a big part of that was the simply superhuman efforts of Richard.
He's lost something like $60,000 on trying to get our show the kind of continuation it deserves. He's re-mortaged his house, risked his future financial security and done 500% more than anyone could have ever expected to keep the dream alive.
People mock him for always being available for conventions and such. They should be bloody ashamed! If only all 'stars' had such loyalty to their fans!
He's an amazing bloke, and if he wants to work on RDMs show, then good on him!
He's not Apollo in it, it's got no connection with our beloved classic, and won't affect a continuation if it happens.
Let anyone who wants to point the finger at Richard do 1% of the amount he has for the 'scene' first.

The man is an honest to god fracking hero!


Well told, CD!! :salute:

[martok2112]

WarMachine,

I wish that you hadn't tested the strength of that limb.

;)

At any rate, this is a fair discussion topic and folks should be able to freely express their feelings, WITH ONE PROVISO:



This, especially, applies to those individuals who may NOT be here to "defend themselves".

*******

Now, that the boundaries have been established and since this IS a fair discussion topic, I'll take my turn on the soapbox.

...

For about 20 years, folks had been clamoring for a continuation to the Battlestar Galactica story. They signed petitions, went to conventions, and filled message boards with their thoughts, feelings, hopes and desires.

There was one person, who was literally swept up in this 'movement' and was so overwhelmed with the continued interest for a 20 year-old show that ran for 1 season, that he added his name to the chorus. That one person was Richard Hatch. By joining in with that chorus, though, he assumed the mantle of de facto leader of the Continuation Movement. He became the torch bearer for those folks who wished to see a continuation of the story that Larson penned 20 years prior.

The only problem is that he had no controllling interest in Battlestar Galactica. Universal held the rights to any TV-based show while Glen Larson held the rights to any theatre-based version of the show. Those same conditions exist today. In essence, Richard was just like any of us, a fan of the show, but one with more assets like name recognition, visibility, and industry contacts.

Well, he used those assets to put together the trailer known as "BG: The Second Coming". He arranged for financing, in part, by taking out another mortgage on his home. He gained the cooperation of the Screen Actors Guild, for the production to be done, pro bono, with the provision that it could only be shown at private settings. Also, no economic gain could be made from it or he would be liable for paying the actors and production crew for their participation in the venture.

Given the fact that he did NOT have any controlling interest in Galactica, what was his motivation for doing the trailer? To give the folks a rallying point? To prod Larson and/or Universal into dusting off the big G? To somehow gain control of the franchise himself? My thoughts are that some combination of those three items may have been the motivation.

At any rate, it was done. Based on the reception to its showing at the various conventions, Richard had some tangible evidence for proving that there was an existing groundswell of support for the show. He ran with this as far and for as long as he could.

The combination of the "re-imagined" venture by Sci-Fi and the low turnout for Galactcicon 2003 pretty much spelled the 'end' of the movement. It was at Galacticon where Richard and Ron Moore met and, among other things, discussed Galactica.

Soon after the mini-series aired, Moore approached Richard and offered him the role of Tom Zarek. For Richard, it was an opportunity to get 'back in the business' and become gainfully employed in his chosen profession. It was an opportunity to gain some compensation for the expenses that he single-handedly incurred in the Continuation Movement. And it was an opportunity to show his ability to be reasonable and accepting real-life circumstances instead of being viewed as a malcontent prima-donna wanting it "his way or the highway'.


Do I hold him in contempt for doing this? NO
Do I wish that he had chosen something else to launch a comeback? Perhaps, if that something else was actually being offered to him.

Do I consider him a traitor? HELL NO!!

Bottom line: While I absolutely do not devalue any effort that anyone has made on behalf of a Continuation effort, I also recognize that Richard, single-handedly, did more to bring the big G back than the rest of us COMBINED.

Before we cast critical glances toward the man, we would do well to acknowledge the positive efforts that he has made toward fulfilling our hopes and dreams.


I hold him in the same high regard as was evident before the new show and offer him my heartfelt thanks.

BST

:salute:

Amen!!! :salute:

[martok2112]

Everyone here has made great posts, expressing their viewpoints.

WarMachine, you kicked off a great discussion, and I know you weren't attacking Richard either. It was pretty plain that you weren't. :)

I don't think that a person's likes or dislikes should diminish them in anyway, shape, or form regarding their status as a fan. RH still has done far, far more to bring about a continuation than anyone else, and as far as I am concerned, until someone tops him in that regard, then he is still pretty much a leader (by virtue if not by example) in the continuation movement. I know my logic seems fracked up, but right now I am looking at individual achievement.

Now, with that said, I would dare say that the new up and coming leader will most likely be Sandy. His work on the Exodus audio series (of which Dawg, OWD, CT, and myself are proud to be a part) is simply astonishing, and has been gathering a lot of momentum, in both the way it is unfolding, and the notice it is getting from fans abroad. The goals he has in mind, regarding the story, could be just what the doctor ordered to really fire up the continuation movement again.

There's more I would write, but right now, I have some RL activity that must intercede upon this reverie. Take care all. Will chatcha soon.

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[KamikazeAthena]

Well said Martok2112! Sandy is very much taking Richard's ball and running with it. Exodus is fabulous! It is a tremondous piece of SciFi that has multi-audience appeal. I too am thrilled to be part of it. Even my husband, Mr. I Hate Galactica, thinks it is masterful.

We have Sandy, Richard, and Tom on our side. If you ask me, with dedication like that, we have already won! :salute: :salute: :salute:

[martok2112]

From my standpoint as a fan, it will be a mult- victory if this pushes us closer to a continuation, because I will have had the opportunity to enjoy different versions of Battlestar Galactica. :)

Thanks, KamikazeAthena. It is a great time to be a Galactica fan. :)

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[TwoBrainedCylon]

Thanks. I never intended to lean towards the "new leader" role ... as quite a few old discussions should prove but if being the new leader means nothing more than having put out a good series people enjoy then I embrace that.

I never intended Exodus to be a drive towards a continuation but simply a gift for the fans that wouldn't be invalidated if a continuation of some kind took place. Since its a lot of work, I wanted everyone's effort to go for something that would continue to be strong and not be overwritten should a new series, direct-to-DVD film, or anything else ever make it to the works.

Getting a continuation isn't the focus however. Making a valid expansion of the series and partial continuation of the original series storyline is. There's a lot of details in the latest IFB broadcast so I won't repeat them here.

I will say that I am very happy with the story for EP2, really like the concepts laid out for EP3, am enthusiastic about the setup for EP4, see a lot of potential in EP5, and think the current EP6 will absolutely blow people away. The storylines afterwards have a lot of promise as well.

We're just getting started and EP2 will have a lot more of a Galactica feel than EP1. I really beleive it carries the right tone and John's revamped ending provides the right action and a nice flow that should prove that the original series epic can be looked at again, expanded well, and make for some very entertaining tales.

... at least it looks good like that in script form.


Sandy

[mikedx]

Given the fact that he did NOT have any controlling interest in Galactica, what was his motivation for doing the trailer?

Richard said that it was to be used as a presentation to try to sell the concept to Universal, to let them see what the continuation with the original actors (and adding a second generation of younger actors) would look like, and how good it could be.

Thanks,
Mike

[3DMaster]

The problem I've got with RH is what Eric Paddon said. That, and I recently saw him on a con, and his words were: "The new series is good, but I wish they had called it something else." Basically saying, "Galactica in name only."

Then I read quotes of him saying basically: "The new series is the best thing that happened to Galactica."

What?

I don't care that he took a job on the show. Like Dirk Benedict said on the same con: "If they pay me enough, I'll do a role on the show."

All not a problem to me, let him/them take the role; the problem I have, is with him clearly lying to people; whichever is the lie. He says one thing there, and says the exactly opposite someplace else. On top of blacking the DeSanto/Singer project, that paints a very bleak picture of him.

[Tabitha]

Ok start the flames, cus Im gonna say what I feel and I just know its gonna piss someone off. There was never going to be a continuation, it was never going to happen, it never will. Why? Because it would not entertain the Nintendo generation who thrive on sex drugs and violence. There, its said. My generation is like that. Watch TV, Satalite, Cable and tell me Im wrong. We prefer dysfunction, in the form or "reality" tv and offer our support for shows that have violence, sexual situations, and show the stark life of drugs and murder. There will be someone out there who will argue this, but they are simply arguing to satisfy their own ego. I have only to point to the shows like CSI, Wife Swap, Footballers Wives... ect ect ect ad nauseum. Sex sells, RDM figured that out. Violence shocks us and makes us watch to see what outrage we will see next. Dont believe me? What film clips do we see in previews and news reports. Not the little Iraqi boy planting flowers, its the building blowing up. The origional series danced a fine dance around showing graphically disturbing issues. Any fan accepted sequel would have to do the same or suffer the fate of GINO. Harsh, yes but true. Im not GINO fan, not anymore. Granted, episodes like scar and ressurection ship have improved the quality of the show, but Im still not a fan. But TOS fans are a quirky bunch. We like wholesome good family oriented entertainment. But the world today wont accept that as "quality" programming. How do I know? I post as Poetry Angel on a Captain Scarlet fan site. I posted up how I adored the Thunderbirds movie because the writer/producer Jonathon Frakes kept the show family friendly, and fun, and I got...... flamed! Yes, thats right. The T-Bird purists couldnt handle that it wasnt EXACTLY like the origional. Well folks, this isnt 1985, we do not have tv networks like they were in 85 and the fans of todays shows sure as heck are NOT like they were in 85. So to think that a continuation of TOS would ever have made it is just wishful thinking because it WOULD NEVER SELL. Sorry, sad but true. Hey, this is comming from one of YOU, a TOSer! Im a realist, I accept that fact. RH sold out because he realized that too! RDM made his series the way it is because it sells! Do I like it? No, but enough people do that its had more episodes than TOS! So what we have to do here is to get over the fact that TOS is exactly what it is, the ORIGIONAL series. Not the ONLY series. Im SORRY, but we have to accept it. If the litmus test is longevity, we lost. If the test is money for budget, we lost. If the test is size of fan base, we lost. Just like the colonies, we lost! But, like the Brown Coats, we were on the losing side, but not the WRONG side. TOS will live forever in DVD, and GINO will perhaps spin off a sequel, or maybe a movie or two. I will go watch them, not because I prefer them, but I just have to accept that RDM and his GINO project are the ONLY new BSG stuff that will be comming out of hollywood. Sorry folks, I cant live the dream, but I admire those who do. But reality is, we have to take what we have now and hope that life post RDM and GINO might bring us something a little closer to TOS, but it will never be the same.

tabbi

[3DMaster]

If there was never going to be a continuation, they would never have allowed Singer/Desantos to get as far as building sets, writing scripts, building vipers, etc. etc. They would have told them 'no' from the get go. Nobody is going to waste hundreds of thousands, or even millions of dollars on something you know you'll never going to use.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Tabbi, you're right, only to a very small point- There never was going to be a continuation.... on the skiffy channel only. Bonnie Hammer wanted a remake from the get-go and could hardly hold her glee at yanking the continuation project of Tom DeSanto right out from under him.

You see... DeSanto's project was to air on the FOX channel, not skiffy. When FOX pulled out, Tom tried going to other stations, but NOT skiffy because he knew Bonnie's stance.

Now.. as for Richard and the main subject of this thread, the most I'll say about it is that Sandy's assessment is virtually dead on. No need to repeat that.

[TwoBrainedCylon]

No flames but I don't agree with this because its premise demands that there is a single audience with a single preference.

If that were true, then different works wouldn't thrive for different audiences. Mel Gibson would never have made a profit with an untraditional film about Jesus Christ just to name the most obvious example.

I'd argue that there is a large, disgruntled audience that both television and the film industry regularly ignores because they focus on the groups you've described. Mel understood this well, just as Peter Jackson did when he was told that the idea of making Lord of the Rings was idiotic because the modern, "sophisticated" (and yes I heard that word) audience wants something more than a boring good vs. evil plotline.

You might not sell to the crowd that you're referencing but I don't agree that there isn't a strong audience out there who would readily embrace a well done continuation.


Sandy

[captmiloman]

Message deleted by Captmiloman.

[BST]

Ok start the flames, cus Im gonna say what I feel and I just know its gonna piss someone off.

tabbi

Statements like this generally do more to inflame the situation rather than the accompanying remarks. It's usually better to just state your feelings and let the interpretation take its own course.

BST

[Tabitha]

I agree with you all that there is a viewer base out there that the continuation would please, thats not something I doubt, but what I doubt is that they would speak up with a voice loud enough to get past the crap that hollywood is screaming. Im not sure exactly what to think of Joss and the Firefly movie, Im not sure if it helped to prove that theres a market for niche films or if it proved that making a movie to please some ardent fans was a novel but foolish idea. Im not sure and cant make that call, but I know that in conference rooms in the big networks there must have been some kind of mention of all that and what it means. So does making a continuation of an old series mean profits if its for a niche audience? Or do they go with the known audience that thrives on SVU, CSI, Greys, and the other docu-dramas with the disturbing material, the violence towards women and children designed to shock the audience, which aparently they love, or do they take a chance on a family oriented series... I dont know, think about it. Thats all Im asking, just think about it. We hate the new stuff because its so much of what we see every day, yet ITS STILL ON! And what of us? We STILL dont have a show to watch. Im wearing my Brown Coat badge proudly, but not for Firefly alone, I think were the losers here, but its hard to admit it. I WANT to feel hope that Desanto and co are oh so very very close and that under my tree this year (yas Im Jewish, but its a great metaphor) will be a shiny new TOS continuation to watch, but Im hardly going to hold my breath. If it hasnt happened already, it never will. Sorry, I know this is the kind of defeatist crap you dont like to hear, but if anyones still waiting, Ive got some ocean front property here in Arizona, complete with a Brooklyn Bridge clone to sell ya. Close only counts with hand grenades and horse shoes. Long live TOS, but maybe in a way its better this way, because any continuation at all would never have the charm and appeal as TOS because it would have to be darker, harsher, more gritty than TOS, simply to seem even the remotest bit realistic. And if its changed like that, isnt it just GINO Lite?

tabbi

[3DMaster]

Well, it won't happen ANYMORE. It was about to happen back in 2001/2002. Then they had sets and stuff built, and then that bitch Bonnie Hammer decided to screw us over and managed to somehow get the plug pulled out of the DeSantos/Singer project, to our everlasting regret and scorn piled on those people.

[Tabitha]

Well Ms Hammer wont be there forever, eventually she must retire as do all people. Perhaps then.....

tabbi

[Darrell Lawrence]

Ever hear that song with the lyrics, "There's something happenin' out there..."

;)

[Damocles]

Ok start the flames, cus Im gonna say what I feel and I just know its gonna piss someone off. There was never going to be a continuation, it was never going to happen, it never will. Why? <snip>But reality is, we have to take what we have now and hope that life post RDM and GINO might bring us something a little closer to TOS, but it will never be the same.

tabbi

Good points.

To get what you want, you have to buy it or build it for yourself.

So if we want CBSG, we have to make it for ourselves.

The current generation of TV viewers in the Skiffy niche' market is not US.

It certainly is not ME.

Otherwise I would see more SF that conforms to my view of what is. Reality. Not brainrotted Skiffy fantasy.

Stories would be structured and literate, not incoherent disorganized rubbish.

People would be real instead of cardboard cutouts.

Heroism, which is the norm, would not be some human aberration.

And common sense, instead of gross stupidity, would be written into the plots. Enemies would be intelligently presented and their viewpoints expressed instead of incompetently sketched in carricature and broadly stereotyped.

You cannot look at the current staple of TV shows(written for eight year old minds by hacks) and not be INSULTED.

As a result, what TV I do watch, tends to be oriented towards the History Channel(TM) which I often turn off(They get so much, WRONG!) and the Discovery Channel(TM) where I watch the Tuttles produce another motorcycle-or the Mythbusters who problem solve some curious urban myth that anybody could solve if they just performed the gedanken experiment.

I also chuckle at the attempts of Jesse James and his build crews to produce something on Monster Garage(TM).

I also watch Discovery Wings(TM). They get turned off as much as the History Channel(TM) and for much the same reason.

Commercial TV? For anything?

Click.

Under those conditions, whatever RH says for public consumption is not relevant to the continuation. It's interesting, but not RELEVANT. Who has the rights to the property? That is the person to whom I listen.

As always; :salute:

[Lara]

I won't get into a GINO discussion, cos thats not what this site is about.. And this is NOT a flame. If you take it as such, I apologise in advance.

But TOS fans are a quirky bunch. We like wholesome good family oriented entertainment. But the world today wont accept that as "quality" programming.

I cannot remember a single continuist who was/has/is baying for BSG to return time capsuled from 1978. Updated is essential, infact part of the appeal, as the themes are universal, and could be brought into modern network sensibilities in a way that would be almost impossible for Little House on the Prarie.

The "world" is a big place, and not everything the rest of us watch is American Network friendly. Just because America is a large market, doesn't make it the only valid view. Even Hollywood knows something is rotten at the moment, and they need to fix it but don't (yet) know how. Just a silent movies, and B&W films gave way to new media, that then changed, all things must evolve. The 70's American network model is having its last gasp. The future is is yet to yield the new dominant medium.


How do I know? I post as Poetry Angel on a Captain Scarlet fan site. I posted up how I adored the Thunderbirds movie because the writer/producer Jonathon Frakes kept the show family friendly, and fun, and I got...... flamed! Yes, thats right. The T-Bird purists couldnt handle that it wasnt EXACTLY like the origional. Well folks, this isnt 1985, we do not have tv networks like they were in 85 and the fans of todays shows sure as heck are NOT like they were in 85. So to think that a continuation of TOS would ever have made it is just wishful thinking because it WOULD NEVER SELL.

Firstly, I don't understand what 1985 has got to do with it. Captain Scarlet first aired in 1967. Thunderbirds first aired in 1965. They were and are, serious cultural icons
They have late sixties, British sensibilities. They have the New International style (much of this is fashionable again)

I'm always sorry when the 'purists' flame someone, but its impossible not to know that Anderson fans don't care for Frakes' reimagination. Poke a stick at a barking guard dog and you shouldn't be surprised if you get bitten...and you shouldn't be crying for the dog to be put down

Like cBSG fans, they saw no point in such a wilful departure from source marterial. The new Cpt Scarlet, on the other hand, has been well recieved as an appropriate update and a worthy sucessor (by the majority)

Cheers,
Lara

[Malkyte]

First, its good to see you posting again, Tabbi! Hope your trip was a good one! Welcome back! :)

In regards to RH, I have to concur with most here in saying that while I was a little irked to see him join the cast of a certain unmentionable show, I can't begrudge a man for trying to make a living. He has done far too much to keep the flames of BSG going to get a bad wrap, ...and in my humble opinion the idea of some sort of continuation is far from dead.

Which brings me to the other topic brought up in this thread. While the idea and thought of a continuation being dead, is a point of view that one could take, it is hardly the only POV and a conclusion that lacks the enclusion of many variables.

1. Hollywood regimes change. With it, the winds of favor also changes. Projects get cancelled and others get made that would never have, under the previous leadership.
2. Life is cyclical. While there may be an overabundancy of focus on the negative side of life right now, the audience will get tired of it and turn to more positive projects. To some degree, it is already happenning.
3. With up and coming names like DeSanto and strong names like Singer, the possibility of them one day walking into the studios and stating that they want to take another shot at BSG, long after the current incarnation is forgotten, is still very plausible.
4. Had it not been for the many fans and the near heroic afters of quite a few people, including RH, BSG today might truly be dead. But they did not stop believing ten years after TOS, nor 20 years after, and it has spawned 7 books, numerous fan efforts, and nearly an official continuation, only weeks away from filming. ALL BECAUSE PEOPLE KEPT BELIEVING!!!

The arguement for believing in something is not about ego, nor about a denial about reality, but about keeping the faith and having the patience to see it through. We may have lost a few battles here and there, but that is far from an all out defeat.

So, I am going to keep believing. I am going to do what I can to keep the flames of hope and BSG going, so that one day, a Peter Jackson will realize that there IS still life in the ol' war bird and will bring her out of her slumber!

Never say never.

Respectfully,


Malkyte

[JLHurley]

I will go watch them, not because I prefer them, but I just have to accept that RDM and his GINO project are the ONLY new BSG stuff that will be comming out of hollywood. Sorry folks, I cant live the dream, but I admire those who do. But reality is, we have to take what we have now and hope that life post RDM and GINO might bring us something a little closer to TOS, but it will never be the same.

tabbi

I pretty much agree with everything you've said, Tabitha. And as you've stated, RDM's BG may not be the last take we see on our beloved series. How many Superman and Batman versions have we seen on the big screen over the last 50+ years? Ditto Star Trek, Buck Rogers, and non-SF oriented projects like "Whuthering Heights," Pride and Prejudice," and "Romeo and Juliet." Of course, whether any of us are still alive to see a post-RDM BG is another thing... :cry: :salute:

[Tabitha]

Thanks everyone for engaging me. Your views really do mean a lot to me. Im not the kind to just post my stuff and ignore the replies. I agree with you Laura, that T-Birds is a hot topic for the British crowd. In America, we like T-Birds, but I think here its a bit different. I guess because it isnt one of OUR icons, we are a bit more accepting of the franchise and how its handled. I was just happy to see someone pick up the name and do SOMETHING with it. Im a real fan of Andersons work, both TB and CS, as well as his S1999 and others. The man was a genius.
Im wanting so badly to believe in the CBSG project, but I dont think Desanto and co. have what it takes. They need a front person with charisma and energy. When I think of them, I get this mental image of... golf. Yea wierd, but to me, how they present themselves is like watching golf on TV. RDM has style and flair. He sells stuff BECAUSE he is flamboyant and gregarious. Ive said elsewhere, and i stand by it. I wish RDM was on OUR side, because he knows how to convince the hollywood elite to do things that seem outragous. Killing Kirk?!?!!? Who would have seen THAT one comming? Thats like killing Adama to the BSG crowd. Hes good. I gotta give him that. What Desanto and Singer and the rest need is someone like RDM, who can wheel and deal and convince the hollywood crowd to take the risk, and do something wonderful. But then, what do I know, Im just another fan with an opinion....
tabbi

[BST]

I wish RDM was on OUR side, because he knows how to convince the hollywood elite to do things that seem outragous. Killing Kirk?!?!!? Who would have seen THAT one comming? Thats like killing Adama to the BSG crowd.

I wouldn't exactly refer to the Sci-Fi channel as having membership in "Hollywood's elite". They're spectators.

Killing off Kirk was not necessarily outrageous. How Moore chose to do it, however, was pathetic. The least that he could have done was to have written Kirk's death scene with a bit more glorious ending. It was the popularity of the original Star Trek show which led to the movies which led to the spin-offs and which led to Moore's employment with the ST franchise. An homage to that would have been appropriate.


Hes good. I gotta give him that. What Desanto and Singer and the rest need is someone like RDM, who can wheel and deal and convince the hollywood crowd to take the risk, and do something wonderful.

Singer and DeSanto have done quite well with the X-Men series of movies. They don't need someone like Moore whose most recent claim to fame is penning a show on a niche cable TV channel with coverage to 77% of the USA.

To be honest, I don't quite understand your fascination with Ron Moore. He's done nothing recently that would have him anywhere on my "go to" list.

But, to each his or her own.

[Tabitha]

I wouldnt say Im facinated by him, Im just learning a lot about him, and though I cant say Id pick him for a friend in a room full of people, I have to give credit where its due. Sure the X-Men movies were awesome, but then, they stayed true to the fans images of the characters, that means instant fan adoration. Its another thing entirely to convince people that you want to take a cultural icon and kill it and have people not only support it, but rave in the reviews. I think the word Im using to describe my current interest in RDM is maybe facinsation, but more like curiosity. I just wonder HOW someone can do these things. I coldnt convince a naked eskimo to put on a parka in a blizzard, but this guy seems to be a svengoly of the hollywood crowd. I think if Desanto and co had his ability to convince people that doing something outragous and daring was a sure fire hit, then we would have had a CBSG pilot years ago. Thats all Im saying. I dont think they ever had the ability to sell something outside what hollywood was willing to go for. Mel Gibson couldnt do it, he had to bankroll it himself. Theres a history here, and Im just looking at it and asking, is it realistic to think it will happen, in light of the Serenity/Passion examples. Imjust saying that I dont think it was ever going to happen, and that sure, some momentum was made, sets and props, but were they necessarily big money's doing or Desanto and co spending some of their own green and maybe under the illusion that it was going to happen? I ask questions, thats my job here, thats what I do. I ask questions and provoke some discussion (hopefully). So there it is, was it or was it not just a pipe dream to begin with?

tabbi

[ernie90125]

Tabbi....if you're refering to a Continuation as a possible pipe-dream....I think not.


Richard showed you could pull a lot of people together and make something very special.

Richard reportadly had $80mil offered as an investment. Proving the big bucks are there.

Glen Larson owns the theatrical rights.

Tom DeSanto and Bryan Singer showed you can get a series together.

The fans have shown they aren't going away.

The companies out there buying merchandising licenses prove there is still sales potential in osBSG.

The cast appearing at conventions proves the human elements that made up the show are still popular in the sci-fi community.

The fanfilms show that there is still the creative ability to make the FX for far less money.


Add all of those together....and realise everything foundation needed is in place.....we just need delivery.

[Darrell Lawrence]

It's harder to meet an existing fan base's expectations (ie, X-Men, Superman Returns, Transformers) than it is to scrap something, alienate a fan base and start with your own interpretation.

Simply put, Moore took the easy route :)

Tom planned on going the Continuation route, which would have had to meet the expectations of the existing fan base.

[3DMaster]

I wouldnt say Im facinated by him, Im just learning a lot about him, and though I cant say Id pick him for a friend in a room full of people, I have to give credit where its due. Sure the X-Men movies were awesome, but then, they stayed true to the fans images of the characters, that means instant fan adoration. Its another thing entirely to convince people that you want to take a cultural icon and kill it and have people not only support it, but rave in the reviews. I think the word Im using to describe my current interest in RDM is maybe facinsation, but more like curiosity. I just wonder HOW someone can do these things. I coldnt convince a naked eskimo to put on a parka in a blizzard, but this guy seems to be a svengoly of the hollywood crowd.

RDM didn't need to convince anyone. He was asked to do it, to bring his ideas, he did, and the ones who wanted to screw over the fandom, one Bonnie Hammer, because we didn't support her "biodomes in space Galactica remake" is the one who greenlit it.

[Malkyte]

Tabbi-

I think you might be giving RDM way more credit then he deserves. I saw the man live and not more then a few feet away from me at Galacticon, and the only impression I left with was a man of arrogance and self love. His "selling" of Kirk's death to the inept Hollywood execs, I feel, had nothing to do with charisma, but the fact that they wanted to somehow kill off the old cast movie series and pass the batton off to the next gen. THEY were more then ready to kill off Kirk! As far as the fans accepting of his resolution in the matter, I would hardly say that they welcomed it with open arms. I seriously doubt that the man has a whole lot of charm, but he did get a Hugo. And I am sure that openned up a few doors.

As for the DeSanto/Singer production being a pipe dream?.... After seeing the pre-production art work, FX shots, the built Viper (made by ship builders) first hand, and again only standing a foot away from DeSanto as he was going through the history and the ideas he wanted to pursue, I can comfortably say that it was not a pipe dream. It was however, part of some very unfortunate events and timing. There was a lot of factors that derailed the DeSanto production, but it was very real! But even after the reigns were handed to RDM, it was clear that he could have maintained the continuation, but that did not interest HIM. Hence the direction he took.

Guys like DeSanto, Whedon, JMS and Jackson understand their audience. They understand that to redo or continue an existing premise, you have to stay true to the source and what made it tick to begin with. With X-Men, DeSanto and Singer showed that you can stay true to the source AND introduce new fans to the genre. X-Men was not just liked by the fans of years past, but openned the door to new ones, as clearly shown in its box office and critical success. They knew and understand how to keep the old fans and add new ones. Something that seriously lacks in RDM's skills.

Hollywood, in some corners, is finally starting to understand how to handle movies like this. With the success of X-Men, Spiderman, Batman Begins and the promising Superman Returns, things are looking up. And if DeSanto gets a hit with his Transformers movie, you can bet that he will have the same kind of "charisma" you feel RDM now posseses, if not better.

But whatever capital, RDM thought he had is seemingly going away very fast. His Carnival experiment did not last and his current series shows serious signs of trouble. He supposedly has a couple of other series in production, but I would not be completely suprised if they never air.

As I said earlier, the winds change in Hollywood very fast. If RDM is not careful, he'll get blown away into obscurity.


Malkyte

[3DMaster]

Tabbi-

I think you might be giving RDM way more credit then he deserves. I saw the man live and not more then a few feet away from me at Galacticon, and the only impression I left with was a man of arrogance and self love. His "selling" of Kirk's death to the inept Hollywood execs, I feel, had nothing to do with charisma, but the fact that they wanted to somehow kill off the old cast movie series and pass the batton off to the next gen. THEY were more then ready to kill off Kirk! As far as the fans accepting of his resolution in the matter, I would hardly say that they welcomed it with open arms. I seriously doubt that the man has a whole lot of charm, but he did get a Hugo. And I am sure that openned up a few doors.

He didn't sell anything, the studio execs gave him and Brannon the order from the start to kill off Kirk. The fans did not take his and Brannon's killing off of Kirk at ALL! The ending was refilmed where Kirk got a more heroic death. Originally he was going to get shot in the back by Soran without contributing to his defeat at all. Generations was a bad movie, in that the climax of the movie is just over half-way it: the crashlanding of the Enterprise. The rest is an anti-climactic afterthought, without Kirk dying where he belonged: on the (battle)bridge of an Enterprise.

Guys like DeSanto, Wheadon, JMS and Jackson understand their audience. They understand that to redo or continue an existing premise, you have to stay true to the source and what made it tick to begin with.

If you mean Joss "I sank 3 television series, but bullfelgercarbted my way to a movie of one" Whedon, he does NOT understand his audience at all. He alienated more than half his viewership from Buffy S4 onward. He produced a television show that was (and horrendously is) heralded as a "feminist icon" with "one of a very few feminist heroines and rollmodels", then had that feminist heroine fall in love with her (attempted) rapist. Talk about being severed from your audience.

[Malkyte]

If you mean Joss "I sank 3 television series, but bullfelgercarbted my way to a movie of one" Whedon, he does NOT understand his audience at all. He alienated more than half his viewership from Buffy S4 onward. He produced a television show that was (and horrendously is) heralded as a "feminist icon" with "one of a very few feminist heroines and rollmodels", then had that feminist heroine fall in love with her (attempted) rapist. Talk about being severed from your audience.


No, I mean, Joss "who had a series run for 7 years (which was based on a not so successful movie) and will probably see it come around again, as well as another that ran for 5 and might have some spinoffs. Firefly's early exit was not his fault and yet it still makes him money and has a pretty sizable following. And considering that it was a cancelled series of 15 episodes, the man still managed to get a movie made of it."-Whedon

Does the man know what he is doing? I would say, that for the most part, yes.

Just because you didn't care for what he has done does not mean the man doesn't understand his audience. Someone was watching, for his shows to stay on as long as they were (especially in today's fickel ratings game), and for the most part they were entertaining. Which is part of "getting your audience".


Malkyte

[3DMaster]

No, I mean, Joss "who had a series run for 7 years (which was based on a not so successful movie) and will probably see it come around again, as well as another that ran for 5 and might have some spinoffs. Firefly's early exit was not his fault and yet it still makes him money and has a pretty sizable following. And considering that it was a cancelled series of 15 episodes, the man still managed to get a movie made of it."-Whedon

Does the man know what he is doing? I would say, that for the most part, yes.

Just because you didn't care for what he has done does not mean the man doesn't understand his audience. Someone was watching, for his shows to stay on as long as they were (especially in today's fickel ratings game), and for the most part they were entertaining. Which is part of "getting your audience".

The movie based on his show flopped, that's because it was boring. His other shows systematically destroyed any of its heroes, and had the message that normal old humans like us, are a bunch of powerhungry, useless, fools who could possibly understand the previledged few who have money/power/intelligence/some talent, whatever.

Again, Joss' shows ratings went down hill fast with Buffy S4 and onward. That's because the REAL genius behind the first three seasons' success of Buffy, one David Greenwald, moved on to produce and write Angel (to which Joss barely contributed anything in the first years), and then the quality went COMPLETELY down the crapper once David left ME fully. This is a simple fact. Just about the only viewers remaining of the Buffyverse are fans of a certain blond-haired vampire, and a few loyalists who managed to stay to final episode hoping it got better again, (among others me), instead if just got worse and worse, and with it, the viewers left and left.

What Joss' true talent is, is bullfelgercarbting his way through his failures, and managing to remove any blame off of him, and laying it somewhere else, usually the studio. Why the hell people STILL don't see this, is beyond me.

[Tabitha]

Again the point is, talent is taking a series that is mediocre and a fickle fan base and making something happen. Well something did happen, just not the something we wanted. And the guys that were trying to make that certain something we wanted happen, couldnt cut it. Something strange is going on, and if it isnt RDm getting his silver toungue moving, again showing that his contributions to DS9 and Kill Kirk and now BSg, was enough clout to take control then Im not sure how its explained. I still want to know HOW this happened. How does Bonnie Hammer have power over Glen Larsen, whats her deal? How does RDM get the green light when theres already an infrastructure in place from Desanto and company? Maybe Im missing something here, but it doesnt add up. If its about money and profits, they supposedly already spent 80 million on Desanto/Singer, so they are losing money for no reason. Who the hell is Bonnie Hammer and why does SHE make the decisions? Really! Who said Ms. Hammer is the Goddess of BSG? Are there no other people in hollywood anymore but Ms. Hammer? If so, how did B5 make it? How did anything make it past her? I dont get it.....

tabbi

[Gemini1999]

Not that the discussion isn't interesting....

But, why are we spending so much time talking about Ron Moore in a thread that was about Richard Hatch in the beginning.

I don't have any problems with Ron Moore, per se......

I was just wondering about the change in direction of the topic.

Bryan

[Malkyte]

The movie based on his show flopped, that's because it was boring. His other shows systematically destroyed any of its heroes, and had the message that normal old humans like us, are a bunch of powerhungry, useless, fools who could possibly understand the previledged few who have money/power/intelligence/some talent, whatever.

The movie failed due to poor, or I should say NO marketing and an even poorer release date. The movie was far from boring, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. You obviously don't like Whedon, so fine. No big deal to me. The point is, he still got a studio to let him make it.

Again, Joss' shows ratings went down hill fast with Buffy S4 and onward. That's because the REAL genius behind the first three seasons' success of Buffy, one David Greenwald, moved on to produce and write Angel (to which Joss barely contributed anything in the first years), and then the quality went COMPLETELY down the crapper once David left ME fully. This is a simple fact. Just about the only viewers remaining of the Buffyverse are fans of a certain blond-haired vampire, and a few loyalists who managed to stay to final episode hoping it got better again, (among others me), instead if just got worse and worse, and with it, the viewers left and left.

Your incredible hatered for Whedon is really clouding your rational, my friend. If the show really lost as much fans as you stated it really would not have lasted nearly as long after the 4th season as it did. No doubt that ratings went down, but again people were still watching. For me Angel was meh to begin with, and got interesting later on, and became a little too convoluted in the end, BUT it was still interesting. Again, it was his creations and they lasted pretty decently in todays short attention span world. Whether you liked the end product or not, enough people did to keep it going.

What Joss' true talent is, is bullfelgercarbting his way through his failures, and managing to remove any blame off of him, and laying it somewhere else, usually the studio. Why the hell people STILL don't see this, is beyond me.

Because it isn't true.


Malkyte

[Malkyte]

Not that the discussion isn't interesting....

But, why are we spending so much time talking about Ron Moore in a thread that was about Richard Hatch in the beginning.

I don't have any problems with Ron Moore, per se......

I was just wondering about the change in direction of the topic.

Bryan


You're right, Bryan!

I was going to respond to Tabbi's latest post on RDM, but you are right! This thread was and should be about RH. My apologies for going astray! :blush:

I said my say about RH and will leave it at that! ;)


Malkyte

[jewels]

I still want to know HOW this happened. How does Bonnie Hammer have power over Glen Larsen, whats her deal? How does RDM get the green light when theres already an infrastructure in place from Desanto and company? Maybe Im missing something here, but it doesnt add up. If its about money and profits, they supposedly already spent 80 million on Desanto/Singer, so they are losing money for no reason. Who the hell is Bonnie Hammer and why does SHE make the decisions? Really! Who said Ms. Hammer is the Goddess of BSG? Are there no other people in hollywood anymore but Ms. Hammer? If so, how did B5 make it? How did anything make it past her? I dont get it.....

tabbi
The rights division between Universal (all divisions) and Larson didn't occur until the miniseries was 90% in the can. Bonnie didn't hold power over Larson, the company she ran (SciFi and later Studios USA) grabbed the project right out from under Tom when Fox backed out, very close to the time Singer had to move over to X2.

DeSanto's budget was in the under $20 million range for a 2 hr. pilot to series. They'd not spent anything like that yet, sets were only begun and they were 6 weeks from shooting.

The $80 million is supposedly more or less what would have been committed to Richard's 2nd coming project (theatrical film), IF the rights hadn't been such a clouded issue between Larson and Universal. I suspect the more would have been to have the other studio outright buy all the rights from Universal. Tom had pitched his concept at the same time to Universal and Fox and Fox gave him a greenlight to start development. (Neither Richard or Tom knew the other was pitching back then).

[Tabitha]

Ok its starting to make sense, but only in a very convoluted way...

tabbi

[Darrell Lawrence]

I do believe, on a number of occasions, it's been discussed exactly what happened.

I see no need to keep beating it with a stick.

[tracyb144]

I do believe, on a number of occasions, it's been discussed exactly what happened.

I see no need to keep beating it with a stick.

It's been discussed on *more* than a number of occasions.
The stick is now splinters.
I believe this thread was supposed to be about Hatch? :salute:

[Darrell Lawrence]

*is still needling splinters out of hand* Is that what these are from? ;)

[Dawg]

Yeah - look - as much as I admire the man for what he did in the '90's to bring BSG back to the attention of the suits, and I'd miss him as Apollo in any continuation that they might do, he's put BSG down. (As in 'stuck it in a drawer', not been derogatory about it.)

Richard Hatch is no longer a real factor in Battlestar Galactica's revival.

I think any official future of BSG lies with Tom DeSanto and Glen Larson in some combination (as Glen owns the theatrical rights and Tom's growing into an 800-pound Hollywood gorilla). I know Tom DeSanto understands BSG (frankly, I think Hatch does, too, but like I said he's "moved on").

In the meantime it's up to US to keep BSG going - and we're doing a pretty darn good job of it, and that effort is growing all the time. All the fanfilms, Exodus, all of that.

Nothing against the guy for making a living - but Richard Hatch is no longer a major player in Battlestar Galactica's continued existence.

IMHO, of course. ;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[BST]

Yeah - look - as much as I admire the man for what he did in the '90's to bring BSG back to the attention of the suits, and I'd miss him as Apollo in any continuation that they might do, he's put BSG down. (As in 'stuck it in a drawer', not been derogatory about it.)

Richard Hatch is no longer a real factor in Battlestar Galactica's revival.

I think any official future of BSG lies with Tom DeSanto and Glen Larson in some combination (as Glen owns the theatrical rights and Tom's growing into an 800-pound Hollywood gorilla). I know Tom DeSanto understands BSG (frankly, I think Hatch does, too, but like I said he's "moved on").

In the meantime it's up to US to keep BSG going - and we're doing a pretty darn good job of it, and that effort is growing all the time. All the fanfilms, Exodus, all of that.

Nothing against the guy for making a living - but Richard Hatch is no longer a major player in Battlestar Galactica's continued existence.

IMHO, of course. ;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:


Truth be known, he probably prefers it that way. When TOS finally does come back, he can just blend in with the rest of the cast, do his scenes, and go home.

[Lara]

I was just happy to see someone pick up the name and do SOMETHING with it.
Its easy to be dismissive of the roots something you are not truly, emotionally, invested in.
To draw an on topic parallel: RH always had the emotional investment and the passion, firstly for the TOS, then for the continuation, after all the second coming trailer is a fanfilm of the purest sort.. His passion now resides with GINO, but that is a matter of real life over desire.

Im a real fan of Andersons work, both TB and CS, as well as his S1999 and others. The man was a genius.
The man IS a genius, and another Thunderbirds movie (it had 2 previous) would have been much better if he had been on board. There are some things only the creator is allowed to do. The CGI Captain Scarlet is one of them!!

There are some things that do not cross the AngloAmerican cultural divide... :D :D

Cheers,
Lara
(ps...Laura is my evil twin.... ;) )

[3DMaster]

Your incredible hatered for Whedon is really clouding your rational, my friend. If the show really lost as much fans as you stated it really would not have lasted nearly as long after the 4th season as it did. No doubt that ratings went down, but again people were still watching. For me Angel was meh to begin with, and got interesting later on, and became a little too convoluted in the end, BUT it was still interesting. Again, it was his creations and they lasted pretty decently in todays short attention span world. Whether you liked the end product or not, enough people did to keep it going.

That's because during S4, S5, and S6, Greenwald was still around at ME to do SOME quality control. The moment he leaves completely, is the last season of Buffy, and really also the last season Angel. Angel only got another season by the intervention of Fox saying the price would go down to WB so they could have the show reach a close 100 episodes so it's more easily marketable to syndication. The moment Greenwald leaves, it's over.

[Tabitha]

Instead of focusing on a sequel, or a continuation, why not a prequel, with a retelling of the fall of the Colonies, after all, that really IS the most exciting point in the time line. I admit, I really LOVE to see the combat and the struggle, the drama is nice, but then I watch NASCAR to see the wrecks. hahahahha
BTW my favorite driver Kasey Kahne is second overall in the NNC standings woo hoo!!!!!!!

tabbi

[Eric Paddon]

A prequel would be totally unacceptable for me. If there is somthing to be done with the universe of TOS, then I want resolution to an interrupted storyline that's been left hanging since 1979 and nothing less. The "combat" and "wrecks" is not what I think of first and foremost about Galactica, it's about what happened ulitmately to Apollo, Starbuck, Sheba, Boomer, Cassie etc. and while a continuation need not be overly devoted to settling those plot threads, it *must* address them in some way or else it's nothing but a cheat from my standpoint.

[Damocles]

A prequel would be totally unacceptable for me. If there is somthing to be done with the universe of TOS, then I want resolution to an interrupted storyline that's been left hanging since 1979 and nothing less. The "combat" and "wrecks" is not what I think of first and foremost about Galactica, it's about what happened ulitmately to Apollo, Starbuck, Sheba, Boomer, Cassie etc. and while a continuation need not be overly devoted to settling those plot threads, it *must* address them in some way or else it's nothing but a cheat from my standpoint.

In addition to that development of story, I alwayys wanted to either read or see the (fictional) history of the RT fleet at large. I don't mean the members of the quorum or the occasional convicts, but of the ordinary people caught up in the caravan across the stars. Those are the people I thought would always be the unreported but most interesting members of the twelve colonies.

We always hear about the Nathan Longs or William Shermans in the pioneer epics but we never read or hear about the Samuel Elliotts or the Thomas Brazaeles.

http://www.forttours.com/pages/warren.asp

You never know how close, General William Tecumseh Sherman came to being scalped, until you learned the history of the Kiowas, do you?

As always; :salute:

[Darrell Lawrence]

Three's an entire franchise universe to explore *in addition* to the continuing exploits of our favorite battlestar and her crew :)

[jjrakman]

I actually wouldn't mind a prequel so much, but I would fear that they would be tempted to have it focused on another Battlestar, or during a time already explored in the series.

If they were to do a prequel, what I would like to see done is a sort of Winds of War style Miniseries detailing the very beginning of the Reptilian Cylon Empire, how they became machines, up their eventual conflict with the Hassaris and Mankind.

[Tabitha]

I think theres a place for it.

tabbi

[Eric Paddon]

If there is to be a place for it though, it can not IMO be at the expense of a storyline continuation of TOS. Without that, then nothing meaningful from my perspective has been achieved.

[BST]

Overall, I do not like prequels.

The main reason -- you already know the ending.

Now, while I'm 100% in favor of a continuation story, I wouldn't mind seeing a series of flashbacks to a time prior to, or during, the 1000 yahren war, in order to help fill in some of the gaps in 'history'. But, NO prequel.

[Damocles]

Overall, I do not like prequels.

The main reason -- you already know the ending.

Now, while I'm 100% in favor of a continuation story, I wouldn't mind seeing a series of flashbacks to a time prior to, or during, the 1000 yahren war, in order to help fill in some of the gaps in 'history'. But, NO prequel.

Is there any room for any other surviving battlestar or fleeing Colonials that might have escaped, besides the Galactica and the Pegasus, or has canon slammed that door shut as a possibility?

As always; :salute:

[ernie90125]

Another Battlestar ?

I think the whole appeal of the Pegasus was that it was such a surprise another had survived.

But for a third to have survived, it would become a bit Star Trek were every character has died and come back to life at some stage.

However, another Warship to have survived of a lesser class than a Battlestar....that might be possible....

[peter noble]

Is there any room for any other surviving battlestar or fleeing Colonials that might have escaped, besides the Galactica and the Pegasus, or has canon slammed that door shut as a possibility?

As always; :salute:

Yeah, I've come up with a scenario that a battlestar from the Colonial shipyards (a replacement for the Rycon) made it out and headed out there somewhere.

It's logical to assume that they had some sort of shipyard in a secret location and that with the destruction of the Rycon and the Pegasus (although in had in fact survived) they would need to build at least two more battlestars because the fleet was under strength.

I was going to call the battlestar Damocles but now I'm thinking Hyperion after one of the Titans.

[Damocles]

Yeah, I've come up with a scenario that a battlestar from the Colonial shipyards (a replacement for the Rycon) made it out and headed out there somewhere.

It's logical to assume that they had some sort of shipyard in a secret location and that with the destruction of the Rycon and the Pegasus (although in had in fact survived) they would need to build at least two more battlestars because the fleet was under strength.

I was going to call the battlestar Damocles but now I'm thinking Hyperion after one of the Titans.

I would definitely agree that naming the battlestar after a Titan is more appropiate than calling it after some Greek sycophant of poor judgement who lavished false praise on Dionysius the Tyrant of Syracus.

If we were to stick with the constellations though; you could try those of the southern hemisphere:

Crux, the Southern Cross
Centaurus, the Centaur
Argo Navis, the ship of Jason and the Argonauts
Carina, the keel of the ship
Eridanus, the River
Pavo, the Peacock
Dorado, the Swordfish, and the Large Magellenic Cloud

I like the Battlestar Carina myself.

As always: :salute:

[Darrell Lawrence]

Yeah, I've come up with a scenario that a battlestar from the Colonial shipyards (a replacement for the Rycon) made it out and headed out there somewhere.

It's logical to assume that they had some sort of shipyard in a secret location and that with the destruction of the Rycon and the Pegasus (although in had in fact survived) they would need to build at least two more battlestars because the fleet was under strength.

I was going to call the battlestar Damocles but now I'm thinking Hyperion after one of the Titans.Wasn't there a new Battlestar called Millenia? ...oh wait... that was Don's animation :D

[peter noble]

Wasn't there a new Battlestar called Millenia? ...oh wait... that was Don's animation :D

Never seen it, didn't know anything about it until you mentioned it.

[Darrell Lawrence]

I believe ernie has it linked on his fan films site.

[Darrell Lawrence]

...and it has everything you mentioned- Secret hidden shipyard, new battlestar to replace old ones... :D

[peter noble]

Cool, I'll take a gander.

[peter noble]

Well, I'm thinking with Don's modelling skills now as compared to then, he could seriously up the ante if he were to ever do a part three.

I liked the "heavy shuttle" design.

[Apoptygma]

As someone who has been involved in the entertainment field I think I have a pretty good idea of what Richard has gone through over the past 20 years or so. Here's someone who got pretty damn close to the top of the mountain and then next to nothing for 20 or so years ... pretty damn discouraging. Sometimes the only way to kick the door back open is to take the bull by the horns yourself, invest some of your own money and create your own financial backing. I've done it myself, got pretty fracking close to my goal and then ran out of steam, energy and got tired of the financial drain. Bottom line is if you want to get somewhere in the entertainment business, on the production end at least you need a large team, to spread the work and energy over and a seven figure budget.

I don't believe Richard ever intended to get control over the rights but to get someone with CASH excited to take it to the promised land. I for one am very happy to see that Mr Hatch at least got some of the scraps of the table from his efforts. I'm sure he is very excited to have some screen time and to get some financial return on his investment.


Just remember, the reason "us" fans don't get things the way that we want usually come down to pure finacials. We'd probably bankrupt the franchise by doing things "right" and the "way they should be" from a story/plausibility standpoint. Good thing we don't get our way and have to pay the bills.... everything what ultimately happens, or more likely does not happen comes down to cash ... not a bombshell I know but it is sadly the stupid truth.

[ernie90125]

Millenia is a great fanfilm, and thank Warrior for refering people to my site.

It was missing two things though - A Part 3...and....the second N (Millennia!!!!!)

I think fanfilms are the future. Richard proved something knockout can be made with The Second Coming. Sept17th is probably going to knock us out again. As are others hopefully.

[Tabitha]

I think prequel is exactly the way to go simply because it opens doors for other characters and ideas. In my story I write about the colonial training platform forced to return as an operational battlestar. The idea, that a ship, like the missouri, could come back, after being nearly mothballed, to again take on the enemy and restore her name and glory, its like the ship itself becomes a character. Thats something lacking in GINO and saddly, i felt lacked a bit in TOS. I would welcome the invitation being sent out to writers, Give me your ideas, let us come up with spin off series, it worked for Star Trek, it can work now.

tabbi

[ernie90125]

I understand there is a prequel audio fan project underway...when the time is right the people concerned will tell us more. And certainly it will be welcome on my site,

I have to 100% disagree with you on the Star Trek example. When they were considering which series to go with, I hoped it would be Excelsior as a Continuation of the highly successful film franchise, and there was huge fan support for that series.
When they announced it would be Enterprise...I was uninspired. It didn't "work" for Star Trek it got the who franchise cancelled !

I'm always interested to hear/see fan endevours...including a prequel. But my heart is with a Continuation including the original cast.

[Darrell Lawrence]

I think prequel is exactly the way to go simply because it opens doors for other characters and ideas. In my story I write about the colonial training platform forced to return as an operational battlestar. The idea, that a ship, like the missouri, could come back, after being nearly mothballed, to again take on the enemy and restore her name and glory, its like the ship itself becomes a character. Thats something lacking in GINO and saddly, i felt lacked a bit in TOS. I would welcome the invitation being sent out to writers, Give me your ideas, let us come up with spin off series, it worked for Star Trek, it can work now.

tabbiSorry, but no.

Continuation is a priority while the majority of the cast is still alive and well. IT WORKED FOR STAR TREK.

A prequel would just be a bonus thing. ENTERPRISE DID NOT DO TOO WELL.

Why are some people so against seeing the original cast reprise their roles in a continuation, anyways? IT WORKED FOR STAR TREK.

What's their true motivations?

[Eric Paddon]

"because it opens doors for other characters and ideas"

But what of those of us who just aren't interested in "other characters" but want to find out what happened to the characters we'd come to identify and bond with so long ago? A prequel shuts them out entirely and leaves those of us who want to find out if Apollo became commander, if Starbuck ever learned about Chameleon (a plot point that can be resolved in but a sentence if Starbuck as an aside says to someone, "You know it's like my father, who was a bit of a con man in his day, used to say....."), or if Apollo-Sheba and Starbuck-Cassie came together etc. still hanging. No thank you!

[ernie90125]

I don't think Tabbi(or others here) have a motivation to see the original cast left out.

But I do think its misguided(no offence intended) to pull in the opposite direction to what we have strived so much to accomplish. I think it confuses the issues, and shows an indecsisive fanbase at a time we need to be united. Saying it "worked" for Star Trek is trying to back up a view with an example of failure.

Then again its a democracy and I respect people's right to express their views, ideas and hopes. I just don't agree with them.

[Malkyte]

Saying it "worked" for Star Trek is trying to back up a view with an example of failure.


I would have to respectfully disagree on this. The Star Trek continuation was hardly a failure. Six feature films of various successes as well as a "Continuation" series lasting seven years, in the form of a new generation with spot appearances by the original characters, hardly qualifies for a failure.

It may not have been what everyone wanted, but it did okay. To call it a failure is somewhat disingenuous.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a prequel and have some ideas for such an event, as it is a wide open universe to explore, much like Star Wars and Star Trek possesses. But first AND FOREMOST, as many of you, I want to find out what happened to the characters I learned to love and enjoy. So many questions unanswered, that NEED answering!


:salute:


Malkyte

[ernie90125]

Malkyte - sorry I haven't been clear. I was refering to Enterprise as the failure. Star Trek was mothballed because of the failure of a prequel series which was uninspiring in my view.

To clarify....I LOVE the Kirk movies, and enjoyed a lot of The Next Generation. They were not failures.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Enterprise was a PREQUEL, and wasn't that good.

When I said Star Trek worked, continuation wise, I meant Star Trek, not TNG, not DS9, not Voyager, not the prequel Enterprise.

Star Trek continued with its original cast in the first 6 movies, and it worked :)

So that brings me back to- Why do so many people NOT want to see a continuation with the original cast by tossing out ideas of prequels/remakes as the way to go?

[jjrakman]

Why do so many people NOT want to see a continuation with the original cast by tossing out ideas of prequels/remakes as the way to go?

Because some people have a very deep and irrational hatred of 70's hair. I really don't know.

For me I'm never really interested in any remakes at all, that all pretty much suck. And I don't want to see prequels for the most part, unless they're very well done and stick to established show cannon, unlike Enterprise. But I definitely do not ever want to see the young Adama or a teenage Starbuck. :barf:

[Malkyte]

Malkyte - sorry I haven't been clear. I was refering to Enterprise as the failure. Star Trek was mothballed because of the failure of a prequel series which was uninspiring in my view.

To clarify....I LOVE the Kirk movies, and enjoyed a lot of The Next Generation. They were not failures.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.


Ahh, thanks for the clarification! :) That makes a lot more sense!


Malkyte

[Tabitha]

How, exactly, does having a prequel preclude the continuation from happenning? It seems to me that the current mess was caused by an idea being usurped by the evil hammer empire. Well, they cannot steal from a prequel project, since theres no way that GINO could try to take characters and events that have yet to be invented. AND after any prequel (which doesnt have to even HAVE the origional characters in it, if people are fanatical about that, then the interest in a continuation would likely be STRONGER. After all, most people who tune into skiffy probably do not know the origional cast or characters enough to have bonded with them. So it makes sense to give them a few "friends" that thye want to know more about. Those friends become part of a continuation project which leads us to...... WHAT YOU ALL FRAKKIN WANT! Sometimes the only way over a steep mountain, is to back off a hard sloap and find another path. I mean, cmon, its called seeing a bigger picture, or thinking outside the box, or whatever metaphor of the day you wish to use. The ram rod "lets just shove our vision down some producers throat till they give it to us" approach didnt work, it sorta screwed the pooch. So ok, we back off, start a prequel, wait for GINO and Ms Hammer to go fly off into the sunset, and then we get what we want. I fail to see how having something true to BSG to generate interest in OUR vision of BSG, as well as to fill in the gap and maybe win fans over who are faling off the GINO train, can be a bad thing.

tabbi

[Malkyte]

So that brings me back to- Why do so many people NOT want to see a continuation with the original cast by tossing out ideas of prequels/remakes as the way to go?


Speaking for myself,

First and foremost I would LOVE to see a continuation with as many of the original cast as possible!

But if for some reason that is impossible,(mainly due to Hollywoods limited ability to understand what works and what doesn't) then I am open to a FAITHFULL remake and/or a prequel that is canon friendly!

But again, first and foremost, a continuation with as many of the originals as possible should be our objective, until there is not enough of them left to do it!

:salute:


Malkyte

[Malkyte]

For me I'm never really interested in any remakes at all, that all pretty much suck. And I don't want to see prequels for the most part, unless they're very well done and stick to established show cannon, unlike Enterprise. But I definitely do not ever want to see the young Adama or a teenage Starbuck. :barf:


Agreed. NO young Adama or Starbuck. If a prequel is to be explored... show how the Cylon war began. Show other stories of adventure, exploration, and such of the Colonial life. If as a brief cameo, they want to have the Galactica do a fly by, I can live with that, but otherwise, focus elsewhere!


Malkyte

[Malkyte]

How, exactly, does having a prequel preclude the continuation from happenning? It seems to me that the current mess was caused by an idea being usurped by the evil hammer empire. Well, they cannot steal from a prequel project, since theres no way that GINO could try to take characters and events that have yet to be invented. AND after any prequel (which doesnt have to even HAVE the origional characters in it, if people are fanatical about that, then the interest in a continuation would likely be STRONGER. After all, most people who tune into skiffy probably do not know the origional cast or characters enough to have bonded with them. So it makes sense to give them a few "friends" that thye want to know more about. Those friends become part of a continuation project which leads us to...... WHAT YOU ALL FRAKKIN WANT! Sometimes the only way over a steep mountain, is to back off a hard sloap and find another path. I mean, cmon, its called seeing a bigger picture, or thinking outside the box, or whatever metaphor of the day you wish to use. The ram rod "lets just shove our vision down some producers throat till they give it to us" approach didnt work, it sorta screwed the pooch. So ok, we back off, start a prequel, wait for GINO and Ms Hammer to go fly off into the sunset, and then we get what we want. I fail to see how having something true to BSG to generate interest in OUR vision of BSG, as well as to fill in the gap and maybe win fans over who are faling off the GINO train, can be a bad thing.

tabbi


I don't see the connection. How does a prequel make people want to see a continuation of characters that they are neither familiar with, nor would become familiar with if they are not in said prequel? Does not make sense. If a prequel is made and people find it interesting, they are going to want more of the SAME thing and not a whole new group of characters that they know nothing about. They are going to want to see what happens to the characters they have just discovered in the said prequel, not some distantly forgotten characters.

Maybe I am shortsighted, but I just don't see the logic behind this strategy.


Malkyte


WooHoo, I finally got my first Cylon Raider!!!! :D :salute:

[Darrell Lawrence]

Mal, that confused the heck out of me as well...

[Tabitha]

Well, its the same way that ST:TNG got people interested in the world of ST so that they would give DS9 a chance to tell its story. If not for TNG I doubt DS9 would have gotten anwhere, but people said, Oh I get it Ive seen things like this, I understand the bad guys and stuff. In return Voyager got its chance because people understood what it was like. They gave the characters a chance because they had had a taste fo something very similar. It does make sense.

tabbi

[Malkyte]

I'm not sure that, that is the same thing as what would happen with BSG.

First TNG was a continuation of TOS, with some of the TOS characters making cameos, and it did okay. DS9 built on TNG, by bringing a couple of characters over from TNG and adding new ones, and it did okay. But nowhere did this reignite an interest to bring back the TOS crew in any meaningful way. Instead, another new set of characters were created (Voyager), which some liked and some didn't... and still no meaningful return of the TOS characters.

Finally, a prequel was thought up... and we know how that ended up.

So while new characters were created in the ST universe, the additional shows never brought back enough intrest to the original characters to explore again.

And remember that by the time TNG came about, there were at least 3 or 4 CONTINUATION movies with the TOS characters. If anything, the movies helped build interest for the new ST series, not the other way around.

So if anything, the reverse of your strategy would work. Make a faithfull continuation AND THEN expand the BSG universe with new characters.


Malkyte

[Darrell Lawrence]

Tabbi, this is what I got out of that post- A prequel w/different cast would make people interested in seeing Dirk and co in a continuation.

I don't see that happening. A closer comparison than the example you posted would be this- Enterprise (the prequel) making people want to see Kirk and crew.

That just never happened, and I doubt it'd work for anything in similar circumstances.

[Tabitha]

The biggest factor you all seem to be hitting on is Enterprise. Well, screwing around with the Star Trek timeline, they way they did, turned off a lot of us fans. I boycotted the series when they started it, since finding a Klingon in a corn field is simply not possible under cannon Trek history. So right from the start it alienated its fan base by monkeying around with the history. So to base ANY relavance to Enterprise is like comparing the GINO project to TOS and asking why people like TOS less or more. Its apples and oranges. TOS Star Trek was a short lived and at the time not incredibly popular series that just took on a cult following. Anyone being intellectually honest MUST admit that. Its ratings got punched in the teeth by its rival, Lost In Space. So the real deal was ST:TNG. That really was the most successful and most popular of all the Trek series, and it DID spawn the latter series.
Cameo appearances by the origional actors would benifit a prequel project, but due to their advanced age, and the fact that many may not WANT to go back to their roles (After all, has anyone gotten it in writing that they even WANT to do a continuation or is that a huge assumption?) so of course, replacements would be needed, but then, if Loren Green had died during TOS filming, there would certainly have been either a replacement, or some version of him to fill the role. The same applies with all of the cast. A successful series cannot rely on its actors, it must be the story line, the characters, the environment, that makes it successful. The actors are wonderful, and I love them, but its short sighted at best to say that a series cannot be successful because it isnt cast exactly like it was to begin with. People change, and they may not play the parts exactly the same ect ect ect.... In other words, life happens and the only common thread will be the story.
First off, the writers are probably different, continuation or not. With different writers, comes different personality quirks and ideas. That alone would be obvious. Anyone doubting this should watch Buffy from season to season as more and more of the writing was placed in the hands of more and more writers. The characters changed, at first subtle changes, then gradually more and more obviously. So too, would it happen with either idea, continuation or prequel. You cannot freeze time and make it last forever. The dance changes and eventually the last song plays. Its just a fact of life. No new project is going to be exactly what the origional series was. It simply will not be, and to hope or want it to be is an excercise in futility.
Finally, To grow means taking chances, and risk. Its risky to try a prequel, but there are so many stories and so much to work with in a prequel, that it should be taken seriously as an idea to kick start the legacy. Running TOS episodes during the prequel run would stimulate interest, but more importaintly, it would show the progression. People may very well say, "Oh I get it, thats why they didnt stay and fight" or "So THATS why they got that name" ect... You can make TOS even more vivid and colorful if you actually tell some history. After all, isnt the lions share of creating characters that become more than just a part, done by creating a past and a personality that is believeable and understood? Doesnt anyone want to know what truely transpired before the attack to make Baltar evil? Or Adama distrustful? Or Apollo wise? Or Starbuck... Starbuck? Wouldnt you like to understand Colonial life and what a socialator does, or why the Geminese are such good card players? There so much in TOS to be explored, but it cannot be explored if its blown up in the first hour. Take a chance, risk the unusual, and back a prequel, after all, it didnt work the other way, so whats there to lose?

tabbi

[jewels]

this thread has certainly had it's turns.

I cringe inwardly when I see the word prequel, because back in 2002-3 that was suggested as an alternate route for something else.

the way to bring all those backstory aspects into a story in process is to handle it much like LOST does--via flashback.

the thing that made Galactica different was this human culture's flight or exodus from there decimated home worlds and their search for their brothers, earth's 'colonizers'. To pick up the story again, it doesn't make sense to start anywhere that doesn't contain the rag-tag fleet's existence or journey, the lone battlestar protecting her civilian charges. that was what something averaging--roughly here--30-40 million viewers remember.

[Eric Paddon]

I have to be honest, not one of these arguments in favor of prequel makes any sense to me.

TNG was *not* the real deal, the successful movie series which was a continuation of the original Trek series is what made all subsequent Trek properties possible. And it's no surprise that the one Trek movie that above all others kickstarted the property into something long-term was Star Trek II, which unlike the first movie, went back into the series for inspiration. Without that, you have no Next Generation and nothing else after the first movie in all likelihood.

And second, how can you realistically expect original series actors to have any involvement in a "prequel" even in a cameo? That only works if you set the action a hundred yahrens later, which is a much more acceptable compromise, because you're continuing the original storyline and TOS episodes then tell us how it all started out.

A prequel is no solution at all for me.

[Sept17th]

...the lone battlestar protecting her civilian charges. that was what something averaging--roughly here--30-40 million viewers remember.

Exactly, while Benedict et'al including Hatch--yes even him--are still around walking upright nothing else but continuation appeals to me.

[jewels]

i remember, when i was planning my galacticon trip, asking people i knew if they remembered BG. It intrigued me that everytime someone remembered it, the response was the same thing-Starbuck and Apollo. THEY were the first thing out of people's mouths. I think that speaks volumes about how the characters were written and acted in the original series.

continuation only makes sense.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Tabbi, first off, do you know what the word "prequel" means, because TNG was *not* a prequel. It was a continuation of the Star Trek universe.

A prequel takes place in the timeline BEFORE the already seen events.

A sequel takes place in the timeline AFTER the already seen events.

This is why everyone is pointing at "Enterprise" in your prequel senarios- Because it is a prequel and takes place BEFORE the original Star Trek.

TNG is a sequel, and takes place AFTER the original Star Trek.

[Damocles]

The biggest factor you all seem to be hitting on is Enterprise. Well, screwing around with the Star Trek timeline, they way they did, turned off a lot of us fans. I boycotted the series when they started it, since finding a Klingon in a corn field is simply not possible under cannon Trek history. So right from the start it alienated its fan base by monkeying around with the history. So to base ANY relavance to Enterprise is like comparing the GINO project to TOS and asking why people like TOS less or more. Its apples and oranges. TOS Star Trek was a short lived and at the time not incredibly popular series that just took on a cult following. Anyone being intellectually honest MUST admit that. Its ratings got punched in the teeth by its rival, Lost In Space. So the real deal was ST:TNG. That really was the most successful and most popular of all the Trek series, and it DID spawn the latter series.
Cameo appearances by the origional actors would benifit a prequel project, but due to their advanced age, and the fact that many may not WANT to go back to their roles (After all, has anyone gotten it in writing that they even WANT to do a continuation or is that a huge assumption?) so of course, replacements would be needed, but then, if Loren Green had died during TOS filming, there would certainly have been either a replacement, or some version of him to fill the role. The same applies with all of the cast. A successful series cannot rely on its actors, it must be the story line, the characters, the environment, that makes it successful. The actors are wonderful, and I love them, but its short sighted at best to say that a series cannot be successful because it isnt cast exactly like it was to begin with. People change, and they may not play the parts exactly the same ect ect ect.... In other words, life happens and the only common thread will be the story.
First off, the writers are probably different, continuation or not. With different writers, comes different personality quirks and ideas. That alone would be obvious. Anyone doubting this should watch Buffy from season to season as more and more of the writing was placed in the hands of more and more writers. The characters changed, at first subtle changes, then gradually more and more obviously. So too, would it happen with either idea, continuation or prequel. You cannot freeze time and make it last forever. The dance changes and eventually the last song plays. Its just a fact of life. No new project is going to be exactly what the origional series was. It simply will not be, and to hope or want it to be is an excercise in futility.
Finally, To grow means taking chances, and risk. Its risky to try a prequel, but there are so many stories and so much to work with in a prequel, that it should be taken seriously as an idea to kick start the legacy. Running TOS episodes during the prequel run would stimulate interest, but more importaintly, it would show the progression. People may very well say, "Oh I get it, thats why they didnt stay and fight" or "So THATS why they got that name" ect... You can make TOS even more vivid and colorful if you actually tell some history. After all, isnt the lions share of creating characters that become more than just a part, done by creating a past and a personality that is believeable and understood? Doesnt anyone want to know what truely transpired before the attack to make Baltar evil? Or Adama distrustful? Or Apollo wise? Or Starbuck... Starbuck? Wouldnt you like to understand Colonial life and what a socialator does, or why the Geminese are such good card players? There so much in TOS to be explored, but it cannot be explored if its blown up in the first hour. Take a chance, risk the unusual, and back a prequel, after all, it didnt work the other way, so whats there to lose?

tabbi

I'm going to be odd man out in this thread and stick up for the idea of a pre-quel or rather a parallel continuation story here.

First of all I'm going to agree with Tabbi, that we may not be able to get Dirk and Richard to reprise their roles close to what we see in CBSG.

We also have to accept that with the loss of John Collicos, Patrick Mcknee, and Lorne Greene we have huge gaps in the casting. Let us face facts. If we were to reconstitute the story for a continuation, there would be much new casting and much new background writing. The dangers of a Galactica1980(which does not exist), or of another disaster Hammered down the publics' throats could erupt out of even the most well intentioned continuation project; if the writers, or the producer lose track of the story, or the canon universe background.

Actors can be hired and sets made in a continuation to reflect the CBSG, much as TESB and TRotJ reflected a continuation of SW/ANH. But who regards the prequels to the Star Wars trilogy as successfully reflecting the original trilogy? Not I.

As for "Star Wreck(TM)", after the Killer Bees, Berman and Bragga, got through with it? Don't get me started.

I can see where Tabbi is going. As long as you stay true to the story of the Colonies and their struggle against the Cylon tyranny, we can do a prequel, we can do a parallel, we can do a continuation, we can do a reprise. We can do whatever we want, as long as we stay true to the central vision and stick to the canon.

It is the vision of what the Colonials are and what they try to do that is the story. I would love to see what happens to Starbuck, Apollo, and Cassiopea, and Athena, and Sheba, and(especially) Colonel Tigh, and Boomer. I will ask for that. But if, in addition, I find out how the Battlestar Rycon saved Aquaria from a Cylon attack at some point in Colonial history; or how Baltar was turned by Iblis? Then that is gravy to go over my CBSG potatoes and I would love that, too.

As always :salute:

[Darrell Lawrence]

It's a given a continuation would have new casting, but ALSO allow for the appearances of original cast members, which is what is wanted.

A prequel would not allow any such appearances of those actors in their original roles.

This is where the Star Trek movies succeeded- We got the original cast in their original roles, along with a few new characters introduced.

Granted, a BG continuation would have MORE new characters introduced, but that is not the point- Getting the original cast in their roles is.

Tom DeSanto was going this route.

[Dawg]

Damocles - when did Patrick MacNee die?

Better tell him....

Anyway - in the case of BSG, a prequel is often suggested in order to deflect discussion and focus away from the potential of a continuation.

You see, a continuation set 25-30 yahrens after Hand of God give us the best of all possible worlds - and those who don't want to see a continuation know this. We would get to see the BSG universe in all its glory - a glory that was never fully realized in '78-79. We get to see beloved characters who were never allowed to fully develop - except in our imaginations. And we get to see a whole new generation pick up the gauntlet and carry the story of the Colonial Exodus forward.

In other words, we old-timers get the universe we fell in love with 25-some years ago, and the young pups get cutting edge storytelling with 21st Century technology. Win-win.

A prequel is all well and good, but it won't bring new interest in the original work to the extent some would have us believe. You only need to look at the Star Wars situation to see that.

And everything that came after the Star Trek of the 1960's - except Enterprise - was a continuation. EVERYTHING. It was the same universe, with the same history and background. The original series was the history of the movies, TNG, DS9 - all of it.

Prequels are useful for explaining the history of a universe (of whatever genre). But it's the most difficult situation to pull off; it's an incredible obligation on the part of the producers to not monkey with what has been established would happen in the future (Enterprise's biggest failure), it takes extensive knowledge of what's been produced already. And the main appeal of such a thing will be to those people who already know the universe being explored.

It is less expensive, less taxing, less controversial, to continue the story. And, speaking of the BSG universe, better for all concerned.

Let's save the prequel for a two-parter flashback.

;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Damocles]

Damocles - when did Patrick MacNee die?

Better tell him....

Anyway - in the case of BSG, a prequel is often suggested in order to deflect discussion and focus away from the potential of a continuation.

You see, a continuation set 25-30 yahrens after Hand of God give us the best of all possible worlds - and those who don't want to see a continuation know this. We would get to see the BSG universe in all its glory - a glory that was never fully realized in '78-79. We get to see beloved characters who were never allowed to fully develop - except in our imaginations. And we get to see a whole new generation pick up the gauntlet and carry the story of the Colonial Exodus forward.

In other words, we old-timers get the universe we fell in love with 25-some years ago, and the young pups get cutting edge storytelling with 21st Century technology. Win-win.

A prequel is all well and good, but it won't bring new interest in the original work to the extent some would have us believe. You only need to look at the Star Wars situation to see that.

And everything that came after the Star Trek of the 1960's - except Enterprise - was a continuation. EVERYTHING. It was the same universe, with the same history and background. The original series was the history of the movies, TNG, DS9 - all of it.

Prequels are useful for explaining the history of a universe (of whatever genre). But it's the most difficult situation to pull off; it's an incredible obligation on the part of the producers to not monkey with what has been established would happen in the future (Enterprise's biggest failure), it takes extensive knowledge of what's been produced already. And the main appeal of such a thing will be to those people who already know the universe being explored.

It is less expensive, less taxing, less controversial, to continue the story. And, speaking of the BSG universe, better for all concerned.

Let's save the prequel for a two-parter flashback.

;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

Patrick McKnee isn't dead, but he may be a little old to play Count Iblis, now. Also, if we expect Dirk and Richard to play their roles of Starbuck and Apollo; we have to factor age into their roles, and adjust the continuation accordingly. That is what I mean by casting gaps. I would say there is room for a prequel and/or a continuation, but I point out to all concerned that whether it is a prequel; or a continuation, the same dangers that Dawg has so prudently brought up about the prequel, apply to ANY effort.

But it's the most difficult situation to pull off; it's an incredible obligation on the part of the producers to not monkey with what has been established would happen in the future (Enterprise's biggest failure), it takes extensive knowledge of what's been produced already. And the main appeal of such a thing will be to those people who already know the universe being explored.

Exactly right. If you don't stay true to the story-that is to the canon-you will ruin whatever sequel, prequel, continuation, reprise, or parallel story you create that you conjoin with the original. It will be GINO II. Who wants that?

I note that with the Star Wreck(TM) continuations(to use the favorite example in this discussion), that many of the continuation movies(All of those with the TNG cast I would argue.) were stinkers. That TNG was a sine wave function as a series; that DS9 was a half parabola; and that ST/Voyager was an inverted correspondent function-that is: TNG is a peaking function that declined; DS9, a function that declined STEEPLY over time; and Voyager, a function that started at its peak and tanked as a series very early, and steeply declined into total failure by the time Enterpise first aired.

At the moment Scott Bakula showed up, as Captain Archer, to quantum leap Star Wreck(TM) into its too-long-delayed deserved grave, the Franchise was dead-killed by Berman and Bragga. When I saw that the best actor on the Enterprise series' pilot was Porthos, the dog, it was enough for me. It was badly executed continuations that killed the vision-not that lame prequel fast-buck maker that was Enterprise.

As always; :salute:

[Tabitha]

I think theres some misunderstand here. Im NOT saying a continuation isnt a good idea, Im just saying that prequel (yes I do know what the word means) might be the best way to get classic BSG back into the public. A continuation would run right against GINO, and be compared to it, and since we know that the GINO crowd are very vocal, it would only be asking for the flames of war to start again. To avoid forcing people to take sides in a fight they dont want, we DO have an alternative. We can tell the story BEFORE the story. We can set the ground work for a restoration of TOS. I feel that a continuation would be great, except, its already being done, in a way with GINO. I know, GINO ISNT TOS, but in the mind of the casual viewer, and maybe some of the not so casual viewers, since GINO has run longer than TOS, in a way it actually has more of a story line and therefore can be considered more "BSG" than TOS. I dont agree with this opinion, but Ive debated this with my friends who have watched both, and thats what I come away with after we talk. So Im passing this along, because, those of us in our trenches sometimes dont get the chance to hear what the people on the home front think or feel. Its often far different than what we want or think we will hear.
That said, as unpopular as I am now, I would point out, that there would be NO competition for a prequel, or a spin off, Battlestar Rycon for example. As Damocles was saying, there IS interest in other stories than just the Galactica. Sure we all long to know where Glen Larsen was headed, but after all this time I doubt even Mr Larsen knows where Mr Larsen was headed. For that matter, I doubt ANY of the writers remember what the over all plot line was, since it was changed on the fly from episode to episode, consider the confusion of where Cain was during the episodes with Pegasus. Hes here, hes there, hes everywhere... The lack of a consistant storyline was charming, but that is one strength that GINO has, and to create a series that honors TOS and its principals, the new BSG project MUST be stronger. It MUST have exactly the right ballance and brilliance that GINO lacks, and I just feel that prequel, sequel, or spin off, nothing will satisfy everyone, so to get it of the ground, and to regain the momentum towards TOS, we need to focus on a project that will fly on its own merits, not on just wether its better than the other guy.

tabbi

[TwoBrainedCylon]

I have to take Tabbi's side on this, and as Ernie indicated, we are very seriously considering doing a second audio series that's a prequel to the original Galactica series. The characters will be original but I don't see that as anyway harmful to the Exodus series, which is an expansion/continuation, or any studio approved continuation effort. Concurrently, I can't see a studio prequel effort as being any more harmful to a continuiation effort than anything else that has already taken place with this franchise.

I see a prequel as a great setting that can be pretty well explored. If you look at the hints that the original series provided, the earlier times would be some pretty cool stuff, essentially having much of the sailing ships in the new world feel to it. The Galactica used observation domes for navigation and the asteroid colonies seemed like a cross between the Old West and the Spanish settlements. I personally find this to be a pretty fun setting that opens the doors to do stories that couldn't be done with a continuation.

Enterprise failed because they took the entire premise of the original series and tossed it in the trash can for something they thought was more cool. I think you can link similar failures to most projects that claim to expand a franchise and then just trash it. If Universal opted to do a prequel, they would likely trash it up as well, as that's the swarmy thing they like to do, but I wouldn't have much more faith that they wouldn't tear up a continuation as well.

So, FWIW, if we press on with a prequel audio series it will likely have 6-8 stories and Lords of Kobol willing, should fit in with the original series pretty damn well.


Sandy

[jewels]

Patrick McKnee isn't dead, but he may be a little old to play Count Iblis, now. Also, if we expect Dirk and Richard to play their roles of Starbuck and Apollo; we have to factor age into their roles, and adjust the continuation accordingly. That is what I mean by casting gaps.


every continuation scenario that's been proposed to Universal over the decades has factored whether or not time has passed in along with what happens to characters whose actors are no longer with us or characters that won't be as central as they may have been. patrick macnee is too frail to do a stage/film acting job, that would obviously be a spot for some recasting to occur.

jewels

[kingfish]

My two cents:

1) A prequel could have worked but we wouldn’t have seen the actors back in the roles that made them famous.

2) With the BG universe there wasn’t that much information in the pilot, Saga so a prequel couldn’t do too much harm to the world/cannon of BG.

3) Enterprise failed because it rewrote os Trek cannon. To make up for poor scripts we were shown sex which didn’t help the show, reminds me of another unnamed show.

4) CONTINUATION- This is the way to go IMHO. Richard, Dirk, Herb, Anne, ect are still with us. True Collicos, Greene, Bridges, and a few others aren’t here anymore but they could have been with us but too fragile to reprise their parts so then what? Throw the baby out with the bath water. Some roles would have to be recast whether we like it or not. Better to give a little to receive a lot IMHO.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Sandy, you'd take a prequel over a Continuation in an OFFICIAL production?

Just want to clarify your post in regards to agreeing with Tabbi.

[TwoBrainedCylon]

Nope. but I don't think it would necessarily be any worse either.

I hope DeSanto gets his hands on Galactica but if he had his full way, we'd have seen Cylon-Borgs that I don't think would have been a good move. A prequel showing the early Cylons that was truly faithful to the ideas laid out in the original series would be better to me than a continuation that wandered off into Trek-land or some commentary about modern day politics.

Given the choice, I'd prefer a Continuation but I don't think a prequel would be a bad thing. I also don't think that after a couple of years, a Continuation would be well founded with the original cast, nor should it be.

The cast is getting older and one of the problems with the format is that there aren't a lot of places to promote these people ... which begs the question of what do you do with them. Richard tried to do this with his book and you had a lot of high ranking people just bumping into each other. To me, it was a bit of a mess. Keeping them in place, 25+ years later is a lot like the Trek thing where you keep coming up with wild excuses as to why nothing had changed. Advancing them all works but not if the story remains primarily focused on them. Who wants Commander Apollo and Colonel Starbuck and Colonel Sheba all arguing over who is going to go out on patrol.

IOW, the characters we followed would have to start to fade into the background so a new set of characters come come forward and be the new focus.

So, the "Gotta have Apollo and Starbuck and Boomer" is a limited arguement. It works for a transition but its not the end goal.

This might be why DeSanto wanted to do a CG version.

I want to see the original series elements neatly wrapped up and the themes carried onward. I'd like to see a continuation progress logically. However, under every premise, I see the only viable path to be a transition in which much of the old Galactica foundation fades in the background and a next generation steps forward.

I'd hope that Galactica did this better than they did with Trek, in which we leap very far ahead and then try to backfill as we go.


Sandy

[BST]

Another alternative is to use the 27-year interlude into developing a few more ships to augment the fleet. Maybe not quite the size of a battlestar but, something substantial, nonetheless. Then, there would be a little maneuverability in terms of where to 'put people' because, at their age, Apollo, Starbuck, Boomer, Sheba, ... should NOT be flying patrols. Their value to the fleet would be in positions of command and strategy.

I also agree with the thought that any continuation is going to be a transition from the 'current' generation to the next one. (I said the same thing, myself, on the "Why not a prequel?" thread.)

;)

However, that doesn't mean that the original actors/characters have to be phased out. They can and should play a meaningful role in a continuation saga and not just be there for cameos or a final lap around the field.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Sandy, thanks for the clarification. For a bit there, I was wondering if I'd have to check that second brain for a virus or something :LOL:

I agree a prequel would work. But it'd need to be one that didn't over-write existing stuff, but can add NEW stuff, ala the Cylon ideas you've had.

But again, that choice would be AFTER certain resources for a continuation are gone :)

[Tabitha]

I gotta give RH credit for knowing which way the wind is blowing before many others. While Im certainly not pro-*It* Im impressed that he saw his chance to make money and took it without anyone seeing him as a bad guy or a villan. Hes got good business sence and will certainly succeed in his career.
His new job will pay his bills, and he will have the funds to do what he wants to with his life. After the jobs gone, he will have the funds to perhaps... make a continuation, more as a director or producer, than an actor, but he may have the ability to do so. There is typically a bright side if one looks hard enough. While I dont share the opinion that a continuation was ever truely close to becomming a reality (sure I know other dissagree, but I have heard far too many things saying it wasnt) I hope that he might take the backlash to heart, seeing that his fan base loves him, and wants him to be there as Apollo, and welcome him with open arms. I hope that he feels the love and adoration of the TOS fan base, and that he sees us as not fickle hate filled angry fans, but as sad, hopeful, and trusting fans that will back him if he just tries one more time. Maybe some of the modelers and amature actors here can assist his efforts next time. If he had to PAY those actors of the first fan film, I can only imagine that some of the beautiful people on CF and CA would willingly help for free or darn cheap.
RH did what he thought was right, the same as Leonard Nemoy with his Im Spock/ Im not Spock/ Im really Spock again thing. People change, as do their visions. Sometimes we see what we WANT to see, and other times we have to face reality with the cold sick feeling in our stomachs, and just accept that we screwed up and have to take the consequences. Its through love, and understanding that we find out real friends. Not the ones that like us when they agree with us, but the ones that love us even when were wrong, or they are. I guess thats why I can accept that *It* is the thing that RDM thinks is the right thing to do, and the role as Zarek is the right thing for Richard. Just as my moronic posts are what I consider the right thing to say for me. Regardless, Im still a fan of Mr Hatch, and RDM, and TOS. I cant say the same for *It* though sometimes, just sometimes its almost up to the standards of TOS, but only sometimes. So lets not hate, or begrudge, lets just agree we dont agree with him this time, or that we dislike the situation that he/we are faced with. And maybe someday Richard will join us as our shepherd and we can again flock towards some kind of TOS continuation, or off shoot or prequel.

tab

[TwoBrainedCylon]

Darrell,

Nope. Brains working fine. I've just seen enough old shows brought back to life to know that the secondary concern is what format they intend to branch off with. The primary concern is whether or not those making the thing actually care about the original source material or are simply trying to impress everyone else with how creative they can be.

I'd even go for a faithful remake over a haphazard continuation or prequel.

Still, I think there's a lot of opportunities built into the original series universe to do some really top-quality stuff. One direction over another isn't the key. Getting the right people to do it is the key.


Sandy

[Titon]

Hes got good business sence and will certainly succeed in his career

Er this is to funny to even comment on. Business sense? Sorry Tabbi, not even freakin close!

;)

[BST]

Hes got good business sence and will certainly succeed in his career.
Er this is to funny to even comment on. Business sense? Sorry Tabbi, not even freakin close!

;)


Agreed. It's more along the lines of being opportunistic. He was offered the role, by Moore, and took it regardless of his previous stance with respect to the overall project.

[martok2112]

Unfortunately, Tabbi, there are people who curse and vilefy the very name of Richard Hatch just because he took a recurring role on the new show...and it is those members of the TOS fanbase that give the rest of TOS fandom a bad name. They view him as a traitor to the cause of continuation...and quite immaturely paint RH in a bad light. I can understand and respect that some people don't put the same credibility on Richard's voice that they once did....but those who paint him straight up as a traitor, I cannot respect that myopic view.

Such people seem to have it in their heads that RH would've been better rewarded to stick to his guns, and continue being a voice for continuation. As far as I know, he still is a voice for continuation....but now his words ring hollow to many TOS fans....and speak blasphemy to many others.

Sticking to your guns does not pay the bills.

Ultimately, it's a job that pays the bills.

In general address I say that as for business sense... well....without trying to turn this into TNS discussion, but I must ask the question:

"Which show is currently going into its third season? Battlestar Galactica."

That is all I will say. Folks...do NOT allow this to devolve into a discussion we know is forbidden. Perhaps I shouldn't have even said what I said.


Respectfully,
Martok2112

[BST]

Then, let me ask this -- what worth is placed on his previous condemnation of the project?

Was it not worthy of the Galactica name, in his eyes, until he was offered a job?


2 points that are very important to me - Words and Deeds.

Both are an important measure of a person and I use them constantly.

[martok2112]

Anyone can change their mind.

I used to condemn Matchbox 20 and their ilk in my early career as a singer because I thought they were a bunch of whiners in their songs....until I started singing their songs, and then I realized how much fun they were. A lot of people respected me because of my stance on alternative rock, and thankfully I've not lost their respect when I've ended up singing it. In fact, it was more like, "Hey, Steve, that's great. Welcome to the 21st Century." :rotf: Why do I do it? Because it's fun, and because it makes me money. :thumbsup: Hell, I even sing "Smells Like Teen Spirit" by Nirvana sometimes....and I STILL don't like that group...but the song is fun to sing. (Now, if I can just get the lyrics straight) :D

Same thing for RH. Now that he's actively participating in the show, he's probably seen the new show as a fun endeavor, and it makes him money. Doesn't mean he's sold out. Just means he's doing what it takes (within reason) to keep a paycheck coming in.

Besides, this is not like we're talking about a political leader who pulled a bait and switch on his consituents at the last minute. Just talking about a guy who loves his craft.


So, it falls back to my original take.

Sticking to your guns does not pay the bills.
Doing your job pays the bills. :)
It applies to me as a musician, and it applies to Richard Hatch as an actor.

In the end, nobody owes us a blessed thing when it comes to Battlestar Galactica. It's not ours. It's theirs (being Universal, Glen A. Larson, and Ronald D. Moore).

Offerred Respectfully,
Martok2112

[Dawg]

Personally, I'll never condemn someone for taking a job they don't want or doing something they don't like in order to make ends meet. Hell, look at me - I've worked jobs I absolutely despised.

So - Richard working on GINO is nothing to condemn him for, and I think almost everybody has gotten past the initial shock of his accepting that role.

We can debate his sincerity - condemning GINO at first, now praising it, whether it's genuine or typical Hollywood PR-BS - but knock the guy for taking a paying gig after a long dry spell? Not likely.

And, finally, it's my take that in some of these posts we're standing a bit too close to the line about discussing forbidden subjects; too many back-handed (or even direct) references in today's posts.

Let's keep to the subject, or if that discussion is over let's just allow this thread go away.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Titon]

Unfortunately, Tabbi, there are people who curse and vilefy the very name of Richard Hatch just because he took a recurring role on the new show...and it is those members of the TOS fanbase that give the rest of TOS fandom a bad name


This had nothing to do with Richard Hatch taking a role in a television show. It has to do with how everyone percieves him as being a great business and economic mind. People that have good business sense make decisions based on what is offered to them at the time of attack, not changing to perfect something that may or may never become reality.

There is a great misconception as to who and what mister Hatch is. Is he a business man? A writer? An actor? A producer?

Who the hell knows!

Which show is currently going into its third season? Battlestar Galactica

Been down this road wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy to many times to even think about getting into it verbally ever again.

Can someone tell me why in the hell i even decided to post?

:rolleyes:

[Titon]

being Universal, Glen A. Larson, and Ronald D. Moore

As much as i've hated both Universal and Glen A. Larson for sitting on there collective rear ends and not doing the right thing by Galactica please don't ever associate ownership of this property with Ron D. Moore. That's something personally that i would have to commit harry karry over if it ever transpired.

*shudder*

[martok2112]

I agree with Dawg, and even forewarned about this subject possibly starting tread where it shouldn't. I think all that has needed to be said has been said, and I am not opposed to seeing this thread resolved and closed. :)

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[martok2112]

As much as i've hated both Universal and Glen A. Larson for sitting on there collective rear ends and not doing the right thing by Galactica please don't ever associate ownership of this property with Ron D. Moore. That's something personally that i would have to commit harry karry over if it ever transpired.

*shudder*

Just remember, amigo, I do not post anything to antagonize. It is simply a point of view.

Also, just remember, these are just TV shows...not a life-altering or affecting experience. :)

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[Titon]

not a life-altering or affecting experience.

As much as i would love to agree with you i have to say my friend this is very far from the truch. If it were not a life changing experience you and i would not be conversing on an obscure website about this perticular subject.

;)

[Tabitha]

Well my last words on this are simply...
I used to look at cheerleaders and think "How damn dumb can you get?" but then I was offered a scholorship cheerleading, and I took it. Why? I cant pay for college. Im from a trailer trash background. I swallowed my pride and accepted what was offered because it paid the bills. And I dont have to love what I do, but I do it, because someday I will have the education and money to take my mom out of that horrible park and give her the life she deserves.
I used to like *It* more than peanut butter and jelly. I posted raves about it, but I changed my mind. So am I to be marginalized too? Is that how it goes? If we think one way, but then have a change of heart and stand for what we believe is the right thing, does that mean we lose credibility? Here I was actually raised in credibility AFTER I changed my opinion. But to those who still prefer the other show, I suppose I must be lower than pond scum. Well, so be it. But Im still the same girl as ever. Im still spewing the same crap on here as ever. (Sorry but I know my posts suck) and Im still trying hard to be a good person, and getting it wrong. But Im trying. And so is Mr Hatch. Hes trying to do what he believes is right. And if we accept that or not, it changes NOTHING. He is still the same Apollo as before, just older, and maybe a little wiser. And I stand behind my statement about his business sense. He is the one on TV making money, and Im wiping dishs in the back of a Dennys on weekends. He is the one with the successful acting career and fans and signing autographs. We are not. So from where I stand, id say hes done on with his life, and we could all learn a little from him. Its only when the bitterness of realizing your a Brown Coat fades, and the serenity of accepting that we were on the right side, it just happened to be the losing side, that you can look at this all without the special vision that only lets you see what you want to see.

tabbi

[martok2112]

I used to like *It* more than peanut butter and jelly. I posted raves about it, but I changed my mind. So am I to be marginalized too? Is that how it goes? If we think one way, but then have a change of heart and stand for what we believe is the right thing, does that mean we lose credibility?
tabbi


This statement sums it up beautifully, Tabbi. People have a right to change their minds :) And you're right. I've seen it on both sides of the fence.

"I used to be a hardcore TOS fan, but now, after I've watched a few eps of the new show, I'm like ....'what 70's show?' And people on the TOS side vilefy me for it."

"I really used to enjoy TNS until it took a wrong turn, and now I'm giving TOS a chance. And the fans of TNS think I'm the worst kind of scum now."

Sad state of affairs in fandom. But, it's always been the way. Fans are fickle. Fans are "fanatics", which means a near blind-adherence to the nature and merits of their favorite properties.

I really wanted to avoid this, but it must be said:

TOS fans love the original show, and pretty much support each other when the chips are down. However, many think that if you're a fan of the new show...you're more of a mindless sycophant. That is MOST insulting....and I know those who harbor such sentiments don't have the huevos to say such things to my face.

To them, we are GINOids, sycophants, stealth marketers, supporters of baby-killing, rape, masturbation on TV, and other amoral acts.....pretty much anything except a fan of a show called Battlestar Galactica. Again, condescending, and insulting. They refuse to understand.

Truth be told, we all as fans of shows called Battlestar Galactica could be considered supporters of the worst kind of crime, if you wanna be fair about it:
GENOCIDE.

Titon, as far as BSG being a life-altering/affecting experience....to a certain degree I can agree with you on your point of view. Where I speak of is that the property of Battlestar Galactica is something we can just as easily live without.

Yes, we love discussing the shows....sometimes ad nauseam....but I don't know if that truly qualifies as a life altering/affecting experience. When I think life altering/affecting experience, I think: "I used to be the worst kind of person in the world, but now, after watching Battlestar Galactica, I turned my life around, and now I am a highly respected lawyer in New York."

That is why I don't put as much reverence into either show. Respect, yes. But I cannot afford to put either show so high on a pedestal. BSG (the property as a whole) did nothing for me except give me some entertainment when the shows are on. :) Yes, I might be writing fanfiction for it.....as a labor of love....but otherwise, I go on about me normal routine.

Sorry, need to go to gig.
Catchall later.
Martok2112

[BST]

Folks,

Tie up any loose ends on this conversation. The thread will be closing some time tomorrow.



BST

[Dawg]

Not all GINOids - at least, not the two or three genuine fans I know - fit the description you propose, Steve - but regretably, many of the personalities we see (real or otherwise) do (see my Dawg's Bark column on the subject).

And I also take issue with the thought that BSG wasn't a life-altering event. For me, it certainly was, although it took many years for it to take root and blossom. It was this show, warts and all, that made me want to become a real writer, to develop my talent and write professionally. This was the key inspiration - now all I need is a visionary publisher...

Anyway - it's no different for Hatch. He was a part of it - and Apollo is the one character that he's truly remembered for, and remembered fondly. He was on a season of Streets of San Francisco - the show that rocketed Michael Douglas to stardom - but he won't be remembered for that role, or any other part he's played on TV or on film. He'll be remembered for Apollo - a one-season role - long after his San Francisco cop and this latest bad-guy role of his are little asterisks on his resume. Longer if he can reprise that part in a genuine, well-constructed continuation effort.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[peter noble]

Folks,

Tie up any loose ends on this conversation. The thread will be closing some time tomorrow.


2008. ;)

[Darrell Lawrence]

Sept 17th, 2008.

[martok2112]

Not all GINOids - at least, not the two or three genuine fans I know - fit the description you propose, Steve - but regretably, many of the personalities we see (real or otherwise) do (see my Dawg's Bark column on the subject).

And I also take issue with the thought that BSG wasn't a life-altering event. For me, it certainly was, although it took many years for it to take root and blossom. It was this show, warts and all, that made me want to become a real writer, to develop my talent and write professionally. This was the key inspiration - now all I need is a visionary publisher...

Anyway - it's no different for Hatch. He was a part of it - and Apollo is the one character that he's truly remembered for, and remembered fondly. He was on a season of Streets of San Francisco - the show that rocketed Michael Douglas to stardom - but he won't be remembered for that role, or any other part he's played on TV or on film. He'll be remembered for Apollo - a one-season role - long after his San Francisco cop and this latest bad-guy role of his are little asterisks on his resume. Longer if he can reprise that part in a genuine, well-constructed continuation effort.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

Points well taken, John. :)

Lemme say however that in all honesty, the first life altering stories for me (believe it or not) were the Harry Potter stories. That was the first time I really ever attempted fanfiction. (At some point in their sixth year...which is now canonically represented by "The Half-Blood Prince"). It was shot down because I based my character descriptions on what I saw in the movies.....not in the books, which I had not read until I moved to Huntington, WV. (By that time "Order of the Phoenix" was the current installment.)

For example, I described Hermione Granger as having full blonde hair (as per the movies) when in the books she is described as having "bushy brown hair".

Then again, I had an ex-Marine manager who said I was a blonde (when I clearly had brown hair.) I never imagined meself as a blonde. :D

The stories I've written for Galactica were to show that a continuation in which the RTF discovers Earth could actually work. "Dark Exodus" and "Reciprocity". I poured my heart and soul in those to appeal to my TOS brethren, but it was definitely not the result of any life-affecting experience per Galactica. :) It was a stroke of luck that my fanfics were so well received by the TOS fanbase...and even some in the TNS set.


Now, as some of you may be aware, I am working on MY OWN reimagining of "Saga of a Star World". I am writing this under the premise of "What if RDM's Galactica DID NOT exist, and yet, Universal (instead of going with a logical continuation) still chose to do a reimagining/reinvention of Battlestar Galactica?" I wanted to write this as something that would appeal to both TOS and TNS fans. My reimagining involves characters from both shows. John, if you recall, you seemed to like the way I introduced a certain (TNS) character...and I am continuing to keep her very likable throughout the story. :)

Anyhoo...enough shameless self-promotion.

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[Darrell Lawrence]

Hermione Granger has light to medium brown hair in the movies, not blonde :)

[martok2112]

Hermione Granger has light to medium brown hair in the movies, not blonde :)


My point exactly.....maybe I've developed the same visual problem that my former ex-Marine manager developed....'cause I sure as frack ain't a blonde. :D

[Darrell Lawrence]

Yes, you are. And you wear dresses :D

[peter noble]

Sept 17th, 2008.

That'd be great but I was thinking they'll go for July 4. ;)

[Lara]

Trust

Perception of intention

he who kills the King cannot wear the crown


Lara

[martok2112]

Yes, you are. And you wear dresses :D

Shall I "thwacketh" thee? Methinks ye deserve a good thwacking for thy impertinence. :D

So, get thee to a thwackery. :D

[Titon]

And I stand behind my statement about his business sense. He is the one on TV making money, and Im wiping dishs in the back of a Dennys on weekends

Ok, i'll bite. Business sense? Er how exactly does acting personify business sense? To me acting and working at Denny's is one in the same. There both jobs. One may make you obviously more money but in the long run it's a job. Many hollywood actors will say the same thing. Acting is one hell of a job that is very hard to do and time consuming but in the end it's a job. I've worked for hollywood, made money as an animator/modelor but that doesn't make me Donald Trump.

But i regress. I built a company from day one with barely a cent in my pocket into a million dollar a year business. Within the 15 years it took me to get there i also listened to other's and hired individuals that helped me build it to where it is today. In the long run your only as strong as those that work for you and vice versa. If you continuely second guess your decisions you will get knowhere and eventually the vision you had will quickly disappear. Until Mister Hatch takes other direction his vision for his future may disappear just as quickly. Take it from someone that has worked directly with the man and take it from other's that have done the same. There are quite a few across the net and on this very site.

Again i say this has nothing to do with him as an actor on a tv show, it has to do with how you percieve him as being a great business mind. Far from the truth.

Its only when the bitterness of realizing your a Brown Coat fades, and the serenity of accepting that we were on the right side, it just happened to be the losing side, that you can look at this all without the special vision that only lets you see what you want to see.


Er kind of lost me on this one. Brown coat fades? Losing side? Special vision?

Who said anything about loosing? Is it me or does everyone around think we lost anything? Well let me tell ya this is the very mistake that alot of people are making considering Battlestar. TOS Galactica is far far from being a lost cause and eventually alot of the people that consider it lost will be stunned at just how alive it truely is.

I guess i take exception to some of your words Tabbi. When the good people here chose, along with me, to change Fleets back to a TOS only site alot of others including yourself stood by our decision in an outspoken way. As you stated you have the choice to change your mind, everyone does but i haven't and never ever will waver on my direction and dedication to seeing the true Galactica rise again.

On the loosing side? Not on your life.

;)

[BST]

......a fitting summation for the thread..... :)


Thread closed.