The Colonies and the Federation - Differences and Similarities

[Damocles]

:ahem:

Admin note: March 15, 2006 approximately 9:30 PM .. This thread was separated from We Have at Last Found Earth the Poll (http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12769), in order to facilitate a conversation which contrasts lifestyles, societies, etc between the Colonies and the Federation AND to allow the original thread to return to its initial purpose.

:ahem:

BST


************



Since the Colonials don't eat sapiens, nor have slavery, they wouldn't be denied on those grounds, and its a good thing those grounds are cause for denying people entry into the Federation.

No slavery?

GOIPZ.

Since the Cylons are an alien robotic species bent upon the destruction of all humans, not entirely unlike say the Borg, the Colonials won't be faulted for fighting to defend themselves, and will be allowed entry.

DATA is not a borg. Neither is a Cylon. Do not confuse a positronic robot(Asimov android.) for a cybernetic organic. The Cylon as currently understood is this;

ARTILECT;

http://www.cs.usu.edu/~degaris/artilectwar2.html

and that is not an organic hive mind with mechanical augmentation.

The Bojarans and many other Federation species practice religion, including some humans themselves I might add, and that's never been an obstruction to joining the Federation.

Jean Puke Leotard exhibits the typical Fed bigotry against those societies. Name me a Boolean who isn't Uncle Tommed when we've seen him in Star Trek. There is BLUE SKIN prejudice! The Colonials would be similarly treated in Fed society.


No, the colonials don't have any tech that is more advanced that what the Federation has. The colonials would consider the Federation paradise.

http://www.tecr.com/galactica/ (http://)

We have discussed tylium as a power source on other threads in this forum. One kg. of that remarkable substance(which I have equated to concentrated dark energy equivalent to the energy needed to totally convert a 500 meter lump of iron to vapor; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy (http://) is ) As seen in CBSG, tylium has the outrageous concentrattion of 1E10^18+ joules per gram.

This is better than you can get from MAM reactors. That kind of power available to them, the Colonials; means that the Colonials outclass the Feds across the board technically.

I consider the UFP to be a living hell, much like those self-righteous societies constructed by the Vorlons, or the hypocrits of Minbar. The Colonials, I judge, to be of a similar mindset to myself.

After all, how did they judge the Eastern Alliance?

As always;

[3DMaster]

No slavery?

GOIPZ.

And that's supposed to mean what?

DATA is not a borg. Neither is a Cylon. Do not confuse a positronic robot(Asimov android.) for a cybernetic organic. The Cylon as currently understood is this;

ARTILECT;

http://www.cs.usu.edu/~degaris/artilectwar2.html

and that is not an organic hive mind with mechanical augmentation.

Ah, yes, I see. It went WAY over your head that the operative is not the exact nature of Cylon and Borg, but the fact that both are bent on the destruction/assimilation of the human/Federation culture and species.

Either you're not very bright, or you realized you no argument against my 100% correct point, and tried to subvert it by changing the point to meaningless details.

Jean Puke Leotard exhibits the typical Fed bigotry against those societies. Name me a Boolean who isn't Uncle Tommed when we've seen him in Star Trek. There is BLUE SKIN prejudice! The Colonials would be similarly treated in Fed society.

No, he's never actually been faced with anyone of those societies, except several technological primitive ones. He had Ro Laren on board his ship, who was a religious Bajoran as were others of her race, and he not once treated her with any disrespect. In FACT after one such Bajoran lied alongside Wesley in the Acadamy about the death during an accident, and was severely punished for it alongside Wesley, it was Picard that got her on board the Enterprise because he admired her perseverence, doing penance for her mistake but kept going through the Acadamy despite most students treating her like a pariah because of her mistake.

A boolean is something that can have only two values, usually true or false.

A Bolian is an blue-skinned alien that has absolutely nothing to do with the point, once again - you seem to love sprouting useless information that has nothing to do with anything that's being discussed in order to try and derail an argumentative thread and make yourself look better. (Word to the wise, to those who with some smarts who notice this, you'll only look stupid.) Blue skin is not religion. Further more, it's a completely wrong argument, as we've seen them in different places, from barber, to ensign to first officer, and I believe even a captain. And even IF they were only seen in low positions, that does not mean they can't reach anything beyond low positions, you'd have to see how they were treated by the rest of the people. You'll see they are treated with the same courtesy and respect anyone else got. So IF (which we've already seen isn't true) they were "uncle-tommed", it's by Star Trek and it's writers and creators. NOT the Federation, or the people in it, which is where the Colonials would find themselves.


http://www.tecr.com/galactica/ (http://)

We have discussed tylium as a power source on other threads in this forum. One kg. of that remarkable substance(which I have equated to concentrated dark energy equivalent to the energy needed to totally convert a 500 meter lump of iron to vapor; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy (http://) is ) As seen in CBSG, tylium has the outrageous concentrattion of 1E10^18+ joules per gram.

This is better than you can get from MAM reactors. That kind of power available to them, the Colonials; means that the Colonials outclass the Feds across the board technically.

:lol: Oh, boy...

The Colonials do not have an FTL drive that allows them to go FTL whenever they want to, no replicators, no shields, possibly no FTL sensors, certainly not any sensors powerful enough to map things lightyears hence, since they need to send out patrols to map solar systems, etc. etc. etc.

Just because they have access to some fuel that MIGHT and I stress MIGHT since we don't really know what it is and what it can do, only that it can be mined from planets which would probably all but eliminate dark matter outright, not to mention that since something is 'dark matter' we've never seen it so we don't know what it can and cannot do anyway, doesn't mean that their tech is better than the feds, and judging from the above summation of what the Colonials don't have, and that Starfleet is capable of fighting of people whose powersource are artificial singularities, I'm going to go: nope, Colonials are nowhere close to Federation tech.

Oh, and uh, you do realize that MAM reactions don't produce enough energy to warp space and time unless it's with volumes of entire planets, right? It rather means that the MAM reaction is not the power that warps space and time, it just powers the warp coils. Now the warp coils are the devices that pull energy from subspace and immediately uses it to warp space and time and form subspace fields. This energy, this warp power, would be far in excess of anything a little dark matter can produce.

I consider the UFP to be a living hell, much like those self-righteous societies constructed by the Vorlons, or the hypocrits of Minbar. The Colonials, I judge, to be of a similar mindset to myself.

The UFP would be a paradise of equality and freedom where one can do, believe, think, say, and antything esle one wants, as long one doesn't harm others.

After all, how did they judge the Eastern Alliance?

The Eastern Alliance were a bunch of fascists like the Nazis. They judged them wrong and incarcerated them, but didn't have the time to start a war with them since the Cylons were on their heels. They thus simply moved on.

[Damocles]

And that's supposed to mean what?

The Feds would find Colonial justice a bit too Klinkish for their taste.

Ah, yes, I see. It went WAY over your head that the operative is not the exact nature of Cylon and Borg, but the fact that both are bent on the destruction/assimilation of the human/Federation culture and species.

The point is that you were trying to draw a false analogu between the Borg and the Cylons. Two entirely differnt enemies with two entirely different motivations you try to make equivalent.

The Borg are nomadic cybernetic scavengers and amalgamators with no originality as imagined as a make-believe society or actual real theoretical basis in hypothesis as to a real possibility.That is, they are like most Berman Trek crap science-total fatuous unreality and ridiculous make-believe. The Borg are as impossible in truth as the correctness of the false analogy drawn between them, and either a Saberhagen Berserker or the Beserkers' near cousins the Artilects created by the lizard Cylons, that the Colonials have come to identify by that term-Cylon.

The Cylon machines are not cyborgs or radio linked organic hive minds with a little machine augmentation. They are Artilects.

Either you're not very bright, or you realized you no argument against my 100% correct point, and tried to subvert it by changing the point to meaningless details.

Politeness requires that I ignore the insult, and simply point out that you were unable to connect the dots. So I will explain your error to you.

1. You wrote that the Borg are equivalent to the Cylons and that would be sufficient reason for the Feds to absorb the Colonials. That is false reasoning. The Romulans are a common enemy to the Feds and the Klinks. Therefore the Feds should allow the Klinks to join them? Patently absurd, since the Klinks don't want to join the Feds. There is no reason to presuppose that the Colonials would want to join the Feds, based on such reasoning.

2. You wrote thet the Cylons want to act like the Borg. Incorrect. The Cylons want to EXTERMIINATE humans-not turn them into drones. That is quite a difference in motivation and purpose from the Borg.

No, he's never actually been faced with anyone of those societies, except several technological primitive ones. He had Ro Laren on board his ship, who was a religious Bajoran as were others of her race, and he not once treated her with any disrespect. In FACT after one such Bajoran lied alongside Wesley in the Acadamy about the death during an accident, and was severely punished for it alongside Wesley, it was Picard that got her on board the Enterprise because he admired her perseverence, doing penance for her mistake but kept going through the Acadamy despite most students treating her like a pariah because of her mistake.

Baloney;

Ro Laren was treated as a criminal and disrespected and MISTRUSTED. She was used to get at a Bajoran freedom fighter. Jean Puke used her as a PAWN for his own ends.

Supposedly she earned hs trust? She subsequently joined the Maquis as she found her treatment within Starfleet and the Federation's policies to be contemptible of her and to her.POV. Jean Puke as the champion of those policies was as big a bastard and villain on screen as any Clarkist. If you cannot see the evil in that petty bureaucrat, then you have not been paying attention to the dark underside of ST/TNG.

A boolean is something that can have only two values, usually true or false.

My mistake. I confused algebra with a bumpy.

A Bolian is an blue-skinned alien that has absolutely nothing to do with the point, once again - you seem to love sprouting useless information that has nothing to do with anything that's being discussed in order to try and derail an argumentative thread and make yourself look better. (Word to the wise, to those who with some smarts who notice this, you'll only look stupid.) Blue skin is not religion. Further more, it's a completely wrong argument, as we've seen them in different places, from barber, to ensign to first officer, and I believe even a captain. And even IF they were only seen in low positions, that does not mean they can't reach anything beyond low positions, you'd have to see how they were treated by the rest of the people. You'll see they are treated with the same courtesy and respect anyone else got. So IF (which we've already seen isn't true) they were "uncle-tommed", it's by Star Trek and it's writers and creators. NOT the Federation, or the people in it, which is where the Colonials would find themselves.


?????????????????????

You say that the Federation is some actual real construct independent of the producxtion crews and writers who transferred their prejudice from their minds to stories on film and in print?

To quote William Shatner, the actor, "Its just a show."

Your Bolians;

http://www.geocities.com/therinofandor/Bolians.html

If you read the notes you will see references(not complimentary) made to Bolian body waste, name calling and lack of social graces, etc. That was considered to be normal tom the character treatment over the Berman Trek run. Therefore; I have demonsrtrated Fed racism based on blue skin prejudice. Deal with that.

:lol: Oh, boy...

The Colonials do not have an FTL drive that allows them to go FTL whenever they want to, no replicators, no shields, possibly no FTL sensors, certainly not any sensors powerful enough to map things lightyears hence, since they need to send out patrols to map solar systems, etc. etc. etc.

I won't get into a long treatise about Trek crap science and real science. I can explain everything seen on CBSG in terms of contemporary best science. Berman Trek pseudo-science from its unbelievable particles of the week to its ^replicators^[the correct term for such a device is TEMPLATER], transporters and holodecks is so much FANTASY. Before Roddenberry went nuts sometime during ST/TNG, Star Trek science was explainable in terms as grounded as anuthing in CBSG. The only crap science invoked was the transporter. However, once the senility set in and Berman took over? Fantasy.

Fundamental errors that you write.
1. The Colonials do not have an FTL drive that allows them to go FTL whenever they want to. Where did you come by this nonsense? The Colonials have to have an FTL drive to cross interstellar space. That you don't see it on film(You didn't in ST/TOS) does not obviate the fact that we see them cross space( a lot of it) without noticable character aging. The writers wrote that into the scripts. Its an inferred technology capability to explain the film presentation. Deal with it.

2. no replicators. Okay. Never mind that replicators are impossible.(QCD. Look it up.)

3. no shields. Is that so? See the thread on shields.

4. possibly no FTL sensors. Baloney. In episode after episode, where we see Viper patrols out, the radio messages between Vipers and the Alligator should have at least a second or two delay. There is none. Conclusion? FTL radio. If there is a radio; then a radar or DRADIS is not far behind.

5. certainly not any sensors powerful enough to map things lightyears hence

http://star-www.st-and.ac.uk/~acc4/tboopages/tboo.html (http://)

Here's a hint. Go outside tonight and look up. You should be able to see this.

http://www.wsanford.com/~wsanford/exo/constellations/bigdipper.gif

http://www.dibonsmith.com/uma_con.htm

Need I point out that we at a range in excess of 88 LYs, have detected at least one planet in that grouping?

As to patrols? Well we have aircraft carriers that have radars/sonars that search out hundreds/thousandsa of kilometers cubed volume all around them. We still put out a bodyguard sub and a CAP. Wonder why?

Just because they have access to some fuel that MIGHT and I stress MIGHT since we don't really know what it is and what it can do, only that it can be mined from planets which would probably all but eliminate dark matter outright, not to mention that since something is 'dark matter' we've never seen it so we don't know what it can and cannot do anyway, doesn't mean that their tech is better than the feds, and judging from the above summation of what the Colonials don't have, and that Starfleet is capable of fighting of people whose powersource are artificial singularities, I'm going to go: nope, Colonials are nowhere close to Federation tech.

You better learn something about dark matter before you say; can't.

Here's a basic primer;

http://astron.berkeley.edu/~mwhite/darkmatter/dm.html

http://www.astro.queensu.ca/~dursi/dm-tutorial/dm0.html

And a little something about WIMPs;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIMP

Funny thing about WIMPs. You could be embedded in a solid mass of them and yet move through them unimpeded except for the influence of gravity. These particles have virtually no detectable range of influence in the electromagnetic or the strong nuclear sense. Just the weak and the gravitational, and those in a mirror sense as to how we understand visible mass to work.

End of part the first;

[Damocles]

Now about wormholes........

CHEW ON THIS>


These rough notes below to appear (refined) in book Star Gate: Metric
Engineering Warp Drive for Wormhole Space & Time Travel.

Lecture 5 Topological Concepts in Physics
(ref: Topological Quantum Numbers in Nonrelativistic Physics by David
Thouless)

The "More is different" (P.W. Anderson) Emergence of Order. This
includes both gravity and consciousness in different physical systems
that have key formal similarities. Roger Penrose has also suggested a
deep connection between gravity and consciousness. Roger's ideas based
on quantum gravity collapse of tiny differences in the geometrodynamic
field are different from what I am proposing. There is no "collapse" in
Bohmian quantum theory nor in the emergent macro-quantum theory of local
order parameters in both the "off-shell" physical vacuum (for gravity)
and in the "on-shell" brain of higher organisms. Indeed the
Landau-Ginzburg "phase rigidity" of the local non-unitary order
parameter is an effective defense against the environmental decoherence
degradation that Max Tegmark used against the Penrose-Hameroff model of
micro-tubule consciousness in open non-equilibrium living systems. The
latter must have "signal nonlocality" in violation of unitary nonlocal
micro-quantum theory. Penrose does not use the concept of a giant
macro-quantum order parameter.

"The space in which an order parameter resides is ... the quotient set
of the ... symmetry group of the disordered phase and of the symmetry
group of the ordered phase. This quotient means ... the set of all
different residual symmetry groups. For example the quotient set
SO(3)/SO(2), where SO(n) is the group of proper rotations in n
dimensions, is the set of all different possible symmetry axes ... and
is equivalent to the sphere S^2 which we have used to describe the
directions of magnetization of the isotropic ferromagnet. The
topological properties ... are related both to the topology of the space
in which the material that possesses an ordered phase is confined,
whether it is simply-connected or has holes in it, for example, and to
the nature of the order parameter."

Ex. 5 The Hedgehog of the NASA Pioneer Anomaly

"but keeping constant magnitude" (Thouless below)

a_g = - cH(t) ~ 1 nanometer per second per second

pointing back to Sun on scale of 10 to 10^2 AU

H(t) = a(t)^-1da(t)/dt

in FRW metric (unexpected small scale residue of large-scale cosmology)


There is a directional order parameter inside the physical vacuum as well.

"For an isotropic magnetic material contained in the space between an
inner and outer spherical surface the magnetization might point always
outwards from the inner surface, taking up the direction (but keeping
constant magnitude) of the electric field which would be produced by an
electric charge inside the inner surface ... No continuous deformation
of the magnetization, keeping the magnitude constant" (decoherence-proof
generalized phase rigidity, e.g. space-time stiffness c^4/8piG ~
10^19Gev per 10^-33 cm G-string tension) "can turn this into a state of
uniform magnetization. This is a topological configuration of the
magnetization known as a hedgehog." p. 7

Hedgehog defect in the order parameter is not possible in a planar 2D
thin film.

"Bose-Einstein condensation ... responsible for superfluidity ...
manifested in the one-particle Dirac density matrix ... in the normal"
unordered "state its eigenvalues are all of most of order unity."

This is necessary for micro-quantum unitarity with signal locality in
what Antony Valentini calls "sub-quantal heat death". The eigenvalues of
the density matrix are the Born ensemble probabilities that only obtain
in sub-quantal heat death. As soon as one of the eigenvalues exceed
unity the orthodox quantum probability Ansatz breaks down!

The single-particle density matrix at zero temperature for a pure state
coherent superposition decomposed in simultaneous eigenstates |j>

|psi> = Sum over j |j><j|psi>

of a set of commuting observables for some total experimental arrangement is

rho = |psi><psi| = Sums over j & j'|j><j|psi><psi|j'><j'|

The Born micro-quantum probabilities are

Trace{rho|j><j|}= <psi|j><j|psi>

These are the eigenvalues of the density matrix rho. Note that the Trace
of a matrix is the sum of the eigenvalues of the matrix. Each projection
operator filters out one of the eigenvalues. The determinant is the
product of the eigenvalues. Each coefficient in the secular polynomial
of the matrix is a sum of distinct products of the eigenvalues in
increasing order from Trace to Determinant.

Obviously, when one of the eigenvalues exceeds unity the sub-quantal
heat death approximation breaks down completely and signal nonlocality
is no longer forbidden.
This is the Achilles Heel of Lenny Susskind's argument for the recovery
of quantum information from evaporating black holes even if there was
world enough and time to wait that long - there ain't.

"In the superfluid state there is a macroscopic eigenvalue no of order
N, and the corresponding eigenvector |PSIo> can be regarded as the
condensate wave function. The value of no/N for superfluid helium at low
temperatures seems to be of the order of 10% and shrinks continuously to
zero as the temperature approaches the superfluid transition
temperature. This order parameter should not be confused with the the
superfluid density of the two-fluid model, which is equal to the total
fluid density in the zero temperature limit."

In the case of the universe this suggests that the vacuum condensate
density is ~ 4%, i.e. no/N ~ 0.04 because both the dark energy and the
dark matter constitute 96% of the stuff of the world (negative and
positive zero point pressures respectively) outside of the condensate
coherent vacuum wave.


Break Part A_______________________

[Damocles]

Part B_________________________

Slides from Rocky Kolb
http://www-conf.slac.stanford.edu/ssi/2005/program.htm

Think "vacuum condensate" when you see "superfluid" below. The
superfluid is a giant coherent "macro-quantum" wave in ordinary 3D space
made out of real on-shell boson particles outside the vacuum. The vacuum
condensate is a mathematically similar giant local wave made out of
virtual off-shell bosons (e.g. virtual electron-positron pairs) inside
the vacuum.

Multiple-Connectivity
"If the superfluid is confined to a region which is not simply
connected, such as the interior of a torus, there may be metastable
states in which the phase of the condensate wave function changes in a
non-trivial way around a path that cannot be shrunk continuously to
zero. It is this sort of consideration that ... led Onsager to the idea
of quantized circulation" [vorticity quanta] "in superfluid 4He. This
method of defining the order parameter was generalized by Yang and given
the name off-diagonal-long-range-order (ODLRO). In the case of fermions
.... the one-particle density matrix cannot have a macroscopic eigenvalue
.... but the two-particle Dirac density matrix can. In the BCS
equilibrium state of a superconductor the eigenvector corresponding to
to the macroscopic eigenvalue is an S-state spin singlet function of the
relative coordinates, and is independent of the center of mass
coordinate except near the boundaries: this represents the Bose
condensation of a ^1S0 electron pair. For 3He the pair is in a triplet
P-state, with the spin and orbital angular momentum coupled together in
different ways in the A and B phases ... Again for the singlet S
superfluid fermion system there can be states in non simply connected
geometries in which the phase of the center of mass dependence of the
order parameter changes by a multiple of 2pi around the system.

.... In the quantum Hall effect .. the concept of an order parameter is
not so clear ... Nevertheless, the ideas of topological quantum numbers
run through discussions of the subject. Not only is the Hall
conductance" e^2/h quanta of physical dimension speed "itself a
topological quantum number, but the charge carriers themselves ...
fractionally charged quasiparticles, behave ... like topological defects.

Is the aether an ODLRO 4D Diff(4) covariant supersolid? Remember local
Diff(4) is simply the rigid global 4D translation group T4 locally
gauged. The compensating gauge potential here is

B = (hG/c^3)^1/2'd'(Goldstone Phase of Vacuum Higgs Field)

Here comes Gennady Shipov's torsion field theory extension of Einstein's
1915 GR.

"There are two important order parameters in a solid, which are the
position of the actual unit cell with respect to an ideal unit cell." p. 10

This is B above, i.e. the curvature field 1-form part of the
Einstein-Cartan tetrad field.

"and the orientation of the unit cell."

This is S the compensating torsion field potential 1-form from locally
gauging the 4D rotation Lorentz group O(1,3) that generalizes O(3) for
the 3D solid.

T = dS + W/\S + S/\(1 + B + S) = torsion field 2-form (dislocations)

W = spin connection 1-form determined by B from

dB + W/\(1 + B) = 0

R = dW + W/\W is disclination geodesic deviation tidal curvature 2-form.

Homotopy Classes
Simplest space is contractible, i.e. continuously shrinkable to a point.
The space between the two spheres in the hedgehog is simply connected
for closed 1-D loops that can all be shrunk to a point, but is not so
for all closed surfaces. The 2D torus has closed paths that cannot be
shrunk to a point and that wind around the torus.

Assume "a continuous order parameter associated with each point in
space. Around each closed path there is a continuous change of the order
parameter. Homotopy classes classify such continuous changes - mapping
of the loops onto the order parameter space - according to whether they
can be continuously deformed into each other or not. ... The winding
numbers w are integers, and are formally defined by"

w = (1/2pi)('&'2|'d'Theta) = (1/2pi)(2'|d'd'Theta)

Theta = Im ln(Order Parameter)

"for a complex scalar order parameter or a planar vector field. These
must be the same for all loops that can be continuously deformed into
each other, and are additive when loops are strung together. The winding
numbers round paths that go once around the system are ... all we need
to know. This process defines the homotopy group PI1 for the order
parameter" p. 13

Note that the winding number is a property of the order parameter space
G/H as one closed 2pi path is taken around some obstruction in physical
3D space that contains a zero of the order parameter. Order parameters
are LOCAL in physical space. This is why emergent "More is different"
macro-physics is local even though the micro-quantum substratum is
nonlocal with a complex web of Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen entanglements in
higher dimensional configuration space. Indeed, this is the real
solution of the Schrodinger Cat paradox.

For the U(1) order parameter, PI1 is the group of integers. The A phase
of superfluid 3He & liquid crystals have finite groups for PI1. One can
also define the 2D homotopy group PI2 "in terms of the behavior of the
order parameter on a simple closed surface. This is trivial for the U(1)
order parameter (complex scalar field). The quantum Hall effect is more
complicated, "use the mapping of the surface of a two-torus onto a
complex projective space ... The topological invariant that describes
such a mapping defines its Chern class, and this turns out to be the
Hall conductance in units of e^2/h.

The order parameter can have discontinuities in physical space.
Curvature and torsion are examples of such discontinuities in the World
Crystal Super-Solid.

"If the singularity cannot be removed by smoothing the order parameter,
then ... it is topologically stable. The topological stability of these
defects depends on homotopy class." p.14

In the case of the U(1) order parameter, the topological stability of a
string vortex requires a non-trivial winding number = number of
circulation-vorticity quanta.

"The winding number ... gives the number of complete turns the phase ...
makes on a circuit around" a closed path in physical space that
encircles the defect.

"The ac Josephson effect involves matching rotations of the relative
phases of superconductor wave functions with the temporal oscillations
of an ac circuit." p. 15

Low-power metric engineering the local curvature field B =
(hG/c^3)^1/2'd'(Phase of Vacuum) to steer the timelike geodesic glide
path of the ship from the ship with weightless warp drive (WWD) requires
a non-vanishing torsion field potential S and the above Josephson effect
in which the stiff macro-quantum "carrier" phase of the vacuum is
modulated by a high Tc "signal phase" (probably using an anyon
condensate in a thin 2D film on the fuselage of the saucer). The signal
phase, in turn, is controlled by the EM potential A ~ J using the
Bohm-Aharonov effect in tiny nano-solenoids in the 2D layer.

The stability of the Bohm hidden variable extended electron (& quark)
micro-geon with strong short-range gravity induced directly by the dark
zero point energy density core needs a point defect with non-trivial PI2
whose quantized flux quanta is the electric U(1) charge itself, +-e/3 &
+-2e/3 for quarks & -e for electrons.

Lecture 4 Fractional Quantum Hall Effect for 2D Anyons
Note that the Hodge* as used in most elementary applications apparently
only works for static curved metrics and needs to be modified for
rotating Kerr metrics with gravimagnetism H = (g01,g02,g03) as in
frame-dragging in standard 1915 GR with zero torsion.
What about (anti)self-dual instantons in Euclidean metric? (vacuum
tunneling)

Given a 2-form, e.g. curvature, EM field, torsion, then relative to some
metric define a *

The 2-form is self-dual if

*F = +F

it is anti self-dual if

*F = - F

*^2 = +1 for Euclidean signature ++++
*^2 = - 1 for Lorentzian signature - +++
where with causal light cones
F = F+ + F-
*F+- = +-iF+-

Self-interacting nonlinear Yang-Mills eqs in ++++ have (anti)self-dual
"instanton" solutions.

Can we generalize this to the N roots of unity?

Closed and exact forms:

If dB = 0, B is a closed form.

If B = dA

B is an exact form.

All exact forms are closed, but not all closed forms are exact.

If we have a p-form A

B = 'd'A

('&'(p+1)|A) = (p+1|'d'A) = (p+1|B) =/= 0

Where '&'(p+1) is a non-bounding p-cycle in a multiply-connected p+1
manifold.
For example, if p = 2, then &'3 is a closed 2D surface AKA wormhole
mouth (portal) that is not a complete boundary of the interior 3D space.
There is at least one other '&'3 closed surface some where-when in our
universe or in a parallel universe next door in hyperspace. There can be
many such '&'3 in a NONLOCAL multi-pronged network of Star Gate wormhole
tunnels held open by negative pressure positive zero point dark energy
density distributions.

[Damocles]

Part C____________________________

The general theorem is

(&(p+1)|A) = Sum over all ('&'(p+1)|A) = Sum over all (p+1|'d'A) = (p+1|dA)

In the special case that dA = 0 then the final term on RHS = 0.

Of course there is no reason why dA = 0 is necessary. You can have dA
=/= 0.

Restricting ourselves to a LOCAL wormhole mouth where

('&'(p+1)|A) = (p+1|'d'A) = (p+1|B) =/= 0

Let p = 1

('&'2|A) = (2|'d'A)

Let

A = 'd'(Theta)

Theta = 0-form phase of a LOCAL macro-quantum order parameter valued in
the complex plane.

Single-valuedness of the local order parameter around the closed loop
('&'2| that is not the complete boundary of the inner area (2| then
gives us quantized "Flux without flux".

Consider winding around the closed non-bounding loop ('&'2| once.
Imagine that the order parameter Goldstone phase changes by 2pi/n (n an
integer) in order parameter space G/H for 1 winding of 2pi around the
non-bounding closed loop in physical 3D space. In that case, the order
parameter changes by e^i2pi/n in G/H vacuum manifold space for each 2pi
circuit around the Theta Goldstone phase singularity (e.g. vortex core
string) in 3D space.

In the simplest case n = 1, Then for N windings in physical 3D space we
have the nonlocal Bohm-Aharonov effect

('&'(p+1)|A) = (p+1|'d'A) = (p+1|B) = 2piN

of flux quanta through the closed loop in the "normal core" in a
stationary state. We can actually pump non-integer flux through, but the
state will not be stationary, it will shake off the excess flux in the
form of radiating quasi-particles if not externally pumped in a Meissner
effect.

Suppose n = 2, then for N windings

('&'(p+1)|A) = (p+1|'d'A) = (p+1|B) = piN

This is a macro-quantum spinor condensate.

For n = 3

('&'(p+1)|A) = (p+1|'d'A) = (p+1|B) = 2piN/3

suggestive of the fractional Quantum Hall Effect for high Tc 2D films of
anyon condensate with para-statistics of the normal fluctuations?

Lecture 3 Gravity energy is nonlocal and Yilmaz et-al are wrong.

The Bianchi identities generalize d^2 = 0 to D^2 = 0 when there are
gauge field connections A, W etc. present.

For example:

D = d + A/\

for SU(2) & SU(3) internal symmetry non-Abelian Yang-Mills gauge force
models of the parity-violating weak hypercharge and parity-conserving
strong gluon forces respectively in the standard model. It is the weak
hypercharge group SU(2) that is spontaneously broken to produce the
small inertia of the leptons and quarks and to produce emergent gravity
via my original formula

B = (hG/c^3)^1/2d(Goldstone Phase)

Here Goldstone Phase is the "mean" SU(2) hypercharge phase from using
the Trace operation (details later on).

The large mass of the hadrons comes from the kinetic energy of the
confined quarks in dark energy bags.

In 1915 General Relativity, locally gauging T4 -> Diff(4):

D = d + W/\

Where the spin connection W obeys

T = De = d(1 + B) + W/\(1 + B) = 0

Therefore

dB + W/\(1 + B) = 0

B is the curvature tetrad field that corresponds to disclination
topological defects in the Vacuum ODLRO Manifold G/H and in Hagen
Kleinert's "World Crystal Lattice".

Gennady Shipov's torsion field is when the Lorentz group is locally
gauged in addition to T4. This adds 6 new scalar fields that act like
extra space dimensions, i.e. 10D space-time. Just as locally gauging T4
brings in the compensating 1-form curvature disclination connection B,
provided SU(2) hypercharge spontaneously breaks in the inflation, so
does locally gauging the Lorentz group O(1,3) bring in the compensating
1-form torsion dislocation connection S where the non-vanishing torsion
2-form T is now

T = dS + W/\S + S/\(1 + B + S)

Note the torsion-curvature coupling terms W/\S and S/\B.

The 1915 GR curvature 2-form is

R = DW = dW + W/\W

The Einstein-Hilbert dark energy vacuum action is the 4-form

R/\(1 + B)/\(1 + B)+ /\zpf(1 + B)/\(1 + B)/\(1 + B)/\(1 + B)

The 1915 Bianchi identity is, for /\zpf = 0

DR = 0

i.e.

(d + W/\)R = dR + W/\R = 0

The Einstein field equation is

D*R(Geometry) = *J(Matter)

D^2R = D*J(Matter) = 0

is the local conservation stress-energy current density.

Note

D*J(Matter) = d*J(matter) + W/\*J(Matter)

W/\*J(matter) = d*j(vacuum-matter)

*j(vacuum-matter) is a 3-form that is the pseudo-tensor of the
(matter-vacuum coupling)

Nonlocality of total gravity energy is multiply-connected "Flux without
flux", i.e.

(3|D*R) =/= 0

When *J(matter) = 0 everywhere-when

i.e.

*R = *"D"W

D^2 = 0

but

D"D" =/= 0

i.e. Flux without flux from multiple connectivity of 3-Manifold slices
of space-time.

If no S, then /\zpf is really a constant, i.e. "Cosmological Constant"
made small by vacuum ODLRO. When S =/= 0, then /\zpf is a local scalar
field, indeed the one we need for metric engineering warp and wormhole
with the Josephson homodyne detection method.

This is in complete analogy to Maxwell's U(1) equations

dF = 0

d*F = *J

d^2*F = d*J = 0

And the Yang-Mills SU(2) & SU(3) equations

DF = 0

D = d + A/\

D*F = *J

D^2F = D*J = 0

The complete theory with torsion and U(1)xSU(2)xSU(3) is clearly the
same template where now

D' = d + W/\ + S/\ + A/\ + C/\

A is U(1)xSU(2)xSU(3) or whatever internal G symmetry group works.

W & S are from locally gauging the 10-parameter space-time symmetry
Poincare group.

If we go to the 15 parameter conformal group we will get an additional
conformal or Penrose twistor connection. If we go to Kaluza-Klein
extra-dimensions and Grassmann fermion dimensions of supersymmetry (not
observed) then everything generalizes in the same template. Now however

R' = D'(W + S + C + A ...)

D'R' = 0

D'*R' = *J'

As well as the Yang-Mills equations

F' = D'A

DF' = 0

D*F' = *j

etc.

Similarly for S, B & C?

On Sep 29, 2005, at 2:37 PM, Jack Sarfatti wrote:
Lecture 2 (Revised Draft #2)

Ex 4
Mechanical Model of a Phase Singularity

Simplest case.

Imagine a plane. Pick an origin O. Use polar coordinates, (r,theta) for
arbitrary moving point P.

Pick a point 0' with fixed coordinates (a, chi).

Draw a circle of radius b < a centered at O' with coordinates (b,phi)

Let point P move around this circle whose center O' is displaced from
origin O.

Obviously when a =/= 0 the total theta angle integral of the 1-form dtheta
swept out in one complete circuit round the circle is ZERO. Basically
theta oscillates.

Note that the angle theta depends on the angles chi and phi.

Half of the movement is clockwise and then counter-clockwise for dtheta
on successive semicircles as P winds around the circumference of the
displaced circle. This is most easily seen intuitively all at once when
O' is vertical compared to O (on y-axis ordinate).

Note what happens when you move the circle to different locations on the
plane.

Draw tangents from O to the circle in different locations.

In contrast, when a = 0, or alternatively, b > a the total angle
integral of dtheta is 2pi.

Homework Problem

Use trigonometry to make an algebraic proof.

-------------------

For 3D flat metric, the Hodge * is with the right-hand rule convention

*dx/\dy = dz
*dy/\dz = dx
*dz/\dx = dy

Left-hand rule is

*dy/\dx = dz
*dz/\dy = dx
*dx/\dz = dy

Parity transformation interchanges left and right hand rules in 3D.

(x,y,z) -> (-x,-y,-z)

SU(2)hypercharge breaks parity symmetry and it also may be the origin of
inertia and gravity.

p-forms |p) = (p!)^-1Fuv ... dx^u/\dx^v ...

p-factors, p =< n = dim of manifold.

Important formula

|p)/\|q) = (-1)^(pq)|q)/\|p)

The exterior product /\ of forms is a parallelepiped in the co-tangent
n-dim space of constant phase wave fronts in contrast to the tangent
space of particle paths normal to the wave fronts.

For R^3

A = Axdx + Aydy + Azdz

F = dA = ( Az,y - Ay,z)dy/\dz + (Az,x - Ax,z)dz/\dx + (Ax,y - Ay,x)dx/\dy

2-form independent of metric

*F = *dA = ( Az,y - Ay,z)dx + (Az,x - Ax,z)dy + (Ax,y - Ay,x)dz

* dual 1-form in 3D manifold with a metric specified.

Note, if

A = df

F = dA = d^2f = 0

Therefore

( Az,y - Ay,z) = 0 etc

, is ordinary partial derivative

i.e. mixed second order partial derivatives of the 0-form f commute in
that case.

[Damocles]

Part D___________________________-

However, in the case of a phase-singularity, there is some kind of
region in the manifold where the mixed partials of the 0-form Goldstone
phase of the local macro-quantum coherent vacuum order parameter Higgs
field in our primary application to physics of this formalism do not
commute. This is a topological defect in the vacuum manifold G/H, where
I write

A = 'd'f

d'd' =/= d^2 = 0

due to multiply-connected manifolds

F = dA =/= 0

e.g. non-integrable anholonomic multi-valued gauge transformation of
Hagen Kleinert

AKA

Flux without flux

see also the related idea of the nonlocal Bohm-Aharonov effect using
Feynman amplitude Wilson loop operators.

In 3 space

d|0) is gradient of a function, i.e. scalar field

d|1) is curl of a vector field

d|2) is divergence of a vector field

B = Bxydx/\dy + Byzdy/\dz + Bzxdz/\dx

dB = (Bxy,z + Byz,x + Bzx,y)dx/\dy/\dz

Static 4D Metrics without gravimagnetism (non-rotating spacetimes) &
without gravity waves (c = 1 convention) here

(curved metric) = g = -dt^2 + 3^g

The toy model wormhole is of this form.

We need positive dark zero point energy density with negative pressure
to keep the wormhole open. There is no event horizon in this wormhole.
It's not a black hole!

A metric allows the symmetric inner product { , }.

Classical energy density of the EM field in the absence of sources is

(1/2)[{E,E} + {B,B}]

The Lagrangian density is

(1/2)[{E,E} - {B,B}

E = (Ftx, Fty, Ftz) electric field

B = (Fyz, Fzx, Fxy) magnetic field

F = B + E/\dt

F & B are 2-forms

E is a 1-form

We need a classical EM stress-energy density tensor T to compute

T ~ &(Dynamical Action)/&(metric)

& is functional derivative of classical Lagrangian field theory (not
particle mechanics).

w = (pressure/energy density)

Note, the above is classical without any quantum zero point fluctuations.

w = +1/3 for classical far-field radiation with only 2 transverse
polarizations.

For example, the cosmic black body radiation has w = +1/3

<kolb1new_Page_05.jpg>

http://www-conf.slac.stanford.edu/ssi/2005/lec_notes/Kolb1/kolb1new_Page_05_jpg.htm

It's wrong to use w = +1/3 for vacuum zero point energy that bends
spacetime absolutely.

This is an error in SED used by HRP. The Casimir force is not important
for metric engineering Weightless Warp Drive and Wormhole Time Travel to
The Past (using old wormholes made at the beginning of our local
universe and even connecting to the parallel universes of Super Cosmos).

Equivalence principle + local Lorentz invariance imply w = -1 for all
kinds of zero point energy (isotropically distributed).

That is the Zero Point Energy Stress-Energy Current Density Tensor
tuv(ZPF) diagonal is for Energy Density dE/dV & Pressure P

w(ZPF) = P/(dE/dV) = -1 from EEP & LI of GR

(dE/dV,-dE/dV,-dE/dV,dE/dV),

Therefore, since w = -1

Trace is -2(dE/dV) = (1 + 3w)(dE/dV)

Compare to EM radiation where

w = P/(dE/dV) = + 1/3

( dE/dV, +(1/3)dE/dV, +(1/3)dE/dV, +(1/3)dE/dV), i.e. Trace

= +2dE/dV = (1 + 3w)(dE/dV)

Note that dark energy is P < 0 & dE/dV > 0.

Dark Matter is P > 0 & dE/dV < 0

Assuming here above, of course, compact dark matter sources like the
Galactic Halos when P > 0 and measurements by external observers.

If we stick in Casimir plates to break translational symmetry or somehow
break the rotational symmetry (rotating superconducting disks that phase
lock to the vacuum Goldstone phase?)

There is analogy here to homodyne detection of quantum information with
continuous variables where the local oscillator in a beam splitter is
like the vacuum ODLRO field. (Rev Mod Phys, p. 513, April 2005) Squeezed
vacuum states in quantum optics is when one quadrature of the zero point
virtual photons has less vacuum noise than does the other quadrature
which has excess noise to compensate.
http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~qoptics/squeeze.html

Then

( dE/dV, +a(dE/dV), + b(dE/dV), + c(dE/dV)), the trace is now (1 + a + b
+ c)dE/dV

1 + 3w = 1 + a + b + c

w = (a + b + c)/3

This is quintessence when w < -1/3 and it can perhaps be done with the
Shipov torsion field. Phantom energy with the Big Rip tearing the fabric
of the Universe apart is when w < -1.

On Sep 28, 2005, at 4:20 PM, Jack Sarfatti wrote:
Lecture 1 on Cartan Forms



I am using John Baez's Ch 4 of "Gauge Fields, Knots and Gravity" for the
standard ideas.



All the local physical observables in classical gauge force field
theories are examples of Eli Cartan's "differential forms", e.g., Au,
Fuv, ju.



The integrals of forms over manifolds are premetrical until we define a
Hodge * operation taking a p-form to a N-p form for N-dim manifolds.



The p-forms are very much like Bishop Berkeley’s “ghosts of departed
quantities.” They “are neither finite, nor … infinitely small, nor yet
nothing.”



The 1-forms are dual to tangent vector fields on the manifold. A vector
field is like a bundle of particle paths in Bohm’s hidden variable
picture of quantum theory. The 1-form (AKA “cotangent vector”) is like a
stack of wave fronts (AKA “little hyperplanes”) of small extent as in
Fig. 1 p. 45 (Baez) also in MTW’s “Gravitation.” “The bigger df is, the
more tightly packed the hyperplanes are.” Given a Cartesian coordinate
basis of tangent vector fields {,u} and a dual basis of 1-forms {dx^u},
then duality here is



dx^u,v = 1v^u = Kronecker delta NxN identity matrix.

Given a 1-form df and any vector field v, the directional real number
df(v) “counts how many little hyperplanes in the stack df the vector v
crosses.” Linearity is built in as a postulate. The Cartan forms are
invariants of local coordinate LNIF transformations Diff(N). Diff(N) is
what you get when you locally gauge the global ND translation group. In
1915 GR the Cartan forms are also invariant under the local LIF Lorentz
transformations O(1,3). In general this would be O(N) pre-signature.
That is TNxO(N).



/\ is the exterior product. Obviously we have a kind of quasi-algebra
equivalent to dissecting an N-1 simplex or “brane” also giving partially
ordered (non-Boolean?) lattices with the 0-form on bottom and the N-form
on the top.



N = 1 (dx), i.e. 1



N = 2 (dx, dy, dx/\dy = -dy/\dx), i.e. 3



N = 3 (dx,dx,dz, dx/\dy, dx/\dz, dy/\dz, dx/\dy/\dz), i.e 7



N = 4 (dx,dy,dz,dt, dx/\dy, dx/\dz, dy/\dx, dt/\dx, dt/\dy,dt/\dz,
dx/\dy/\dz, dt/\dx/\dy, dt/\dx/\dz, dt/\dy/\dz, dt/\dx/\dy/\dz), i.e. 15



If we include the 0-form we have 2, 4, 8, 16, i.e. 2^N elements in the
quasi-algebra that suggests the Clifford Algebras. There are obviously
N!/p!(N-p)! p-forms in N space. This is also like an information space
of N c-Bit Shannon Boolean strings. Obviously there will be some kind of
matrix representation. For example N = 2 should correspond to the 3 Paul
2x2 spin matrices with the unit matrix. Therefore, there is a connection
to U(1)xSU(2) here. N = 3 should have something to do with the 8 SU(3)
matrices, and N = 4 obviously connects with the Dirac algebra and
possibly U(4) especially when we complexify each real number space-time
dimension and even go beyond that to quaternions & octonians.



Classical gauge force theories include Maxwell's U(1) electromagnetic
theory, Yang-Mills theories of the SU(2) weak and SU(3) strong forces of
the leptons and quarks in the standard model and Einstein's theory of
gravity (General Relativity, 1915 AKA GR) provided you do not work at
the symmetric metric tensor level guv(x), but work at the "square root"
1-form tetrad "e" level. Note that Einstein's local equivalence
principle is simply



(curved metric ) = e(flat metric)e



where e is the Einstein-Cartan 1-form tetrad field.



You can write



e = 1 + B



B = curvature tetrad field



Since the forms are local frame invariant this decomposition is objective.



Global Special Relativity 1905 AKA SR is when B = 0 everywhere-when.



Note that the (curved) metric has linear in B "elastic" terms and
nonlinear quadratic in B "plastic" terms (H. Kleinert), i.e.,



(curved metric) = (flat metric) + 1(flat metric)B + B(flat metric)1 +
B(flat metric)B



The B^2 terms show that the gravity field is self-interacting like the
SU(2) & SU(3) gauge fields, but unlike the U(1) Maxwell EM field.

[Damocles]

Part E_____________________

The Cartan exterior derivative operator d on forms generalizes the
gradient, curl and divergence. Together with its dual boundary operator
& on co-forms, there is a generalization of Stokes & Gauss's theorems to
N-dimensional manifold integrations with multiple-connectivity (e.g.
wormholes).



The p-dim form |p) is the thing integrated. The dual co-form (p| is the
manifold on which the integral is done. I use a variation on the Dirac
bra-ket notation.



The basic integration theorem, is like the adjoint operation in quantum
theory, i.e.



(&(p+1)|p) = (p+1|d|p)



The two identities



d^2 = 0



&^2 = 0



are analogous to the antisymmetric Pauli exclusion principle in quantum
field theory where



a^2 = 0



a*^2 = 0



a* creates a fermion, a destroys a fermion.



However, we use the notations ‘d’ and ‘&” partially introduced by John
Baez on p. 130 of his book, where he writes:



Ex. 1:



‘dtheta’ = (xdy – ydx)/(x^2 + y^2)



for the polar angle “theta” where



dr = (xdy + ydx)/(x^2 + y^2)



x = rcos(theta)



y = rsin(theta)



The 1-form ‘dtheta’ above is closed, but not exact. In effect this means



d’d’ =/= 0



ONLY when the integral is over a non-bounding co-form (AKA non-bounding
cycle).



Therefore, for this particular example, there is phase (theta) ambiguity
at the origin r = 0. When the closed loop integral



(&’2|’d’theta’) = (2’|d’dtheta’) =/= 0



encircles the origin r = 0 it does not vanish. Note that if the closed
loop integral of ‘dtheta’ does not encircle the branch point r = 0, it
will vanish. In this sense, ‘dtheta’ is closed, but not exact and &2’ is
not a true boundary because of the “hole” at r = 0. Note that the
co-form (2’| is the area enclosed by the loop &’2 minus the “hole” at r
= 0. If we extend this to cylindrical coordinates, then we have a
vortex core string provided we have a local U(1) complex order parameter
PSI(r,theta,z) such that



PSI(0,theta,z) = 0



PSI(r,theta,z) = PSI(r, theta + 2pi, z)



for equilibrium “stationary states” when the closed system relaxes
expelling excess flux in the Meissner effect.



In that case,



(&’2|’d’theta’) = (2’|d’dtheta’) = 2piN



N = +-1, +-2 ….



N = winding number around the string vortex core on the z-axis.



To review, the rigorous theorem is



(&(p+1)|p) = (p+1|dp)



Where



(&(p+1)| is a true boundary, which means



(&^2(p+1)| = 0



When |p) is exact, that means



|p) = |d(p-1))



and



|dp) = |d^2(p-1)) = 0



However, when the topology of the co-form manifold is multiply connected
we can have closed p-manifolds, AKA “non-bounding p-cycles”, (&’(p+1)|
that are not true boundaries together with non-exact p-forms |d’(p-1))
such that



(&’(p+1)|d’(p-1) = (p+1’|dd’(p-1)) =/= 0



The non-bounding p-cycles are p-dim wormhole mouths or “Star Gate
Portals” that are “Through The Looking Glass” Darkly as it were, down
the Rabbit Hole in Hyperspace.



Ex. 2:

Consider the 3D space-like metric of a static spherically symmetric
non-rotating uncharged wormhole Star Gate is



(3-metric) = dr^2 + f(r)^2(dtheta^2 + sin^2thetadphi^2)



Where f(r) is the wormhole shape function. Each wormhole mouth looks
like a closed spherical surface of radius R where



R = f(r*)



df(r*)/dr = 0



d^2f(r*)/dr^2 > 0



This closed S2 surface is not a complete boundary (&3| enclosing a
3-space because it has a twin wormhole mouth somewhere-when else perhaps
in a parallel universe next door in hyperspace. Therefore, all wormhole
mouths for actual time travel to distant places in negligible proper
time for the traveler are really (&’3| not (&3|. Furthermore, the curved
tetrad field B = (hG/c^3)^1/2’d’(Goldstone Phase) is not exact, i.e. in
a 1-D loop around the wormhole mouth S2 surface with the
multiply-connected quasi Stoke’s theorem



(1’|B) = (&’3|dB) =/= 0



This is the curved tetrad flux through the closed loop that “cuts” the
spherical wormhole mouth.



Ex. 3:

Given in cylindrical coordinates the vortex string along the z-axis



‘d’theta = (xdy – ydx)/(x^2 + y^2)



For any closed loop



(1’| = (&’2|



around the z-axis



(1’|’d’theta) = (2’|d’d’theta) =/= 0



i.e. Nonlocal Bohm-Aharonov “Flux without flux”



Given the above wormhole 3-metric define a Hodge * operation, with the
non-exact 2-form



3*’d’theta = (xdy/\dz + ydz/\dx + zdx/\dy)/f(r)^3



Where now we have a multiply-connected quasi-divergence Gauss theorem



(3’|d3*’d’theta) = (&’3|3*’d’theta)=/= 0



when (&’3| is a wormhole portal. There is now a radial 3*’d’theta flux
through the wormhole closed surface in addition to the ‘d’theta
circulation around a closed loop that cuts the wormhole closed surface
that is not a complete boundary.

End of Part 2.

If you muddled through that, 3DM, then you are ready for part three.

[ernie90125]

OMG.........

It was only a poll about a 70s TV show, and a crossover with another show....Yikes....!!!!!!!

[Damocles]

Now for part 3.

Just because they have access to some fuel that MIGHT and I stress MIGHT since we don't really know what it is and what it can do, only that it can be mined from planets which would probably all but eliminate dark matter outright, not to mention that since something is 'dark matter' we've never seen it so we don't know what it can and cannot do anyway, doesn't mean that their tech is better than the feds, and judging from the above summation of what the Colonials don't have, and that Starfleet is capable of fighting of people whose powersource are artificial singularities, I'm going to go: nope, Colonials are nowhere close to Federation tech.

I have supplied you with start points to address your ignorance concerning dark matter, casimir effect, virtual particles, WIMPS, dark energy and about what is speculated and expected. about these and how these inter-relate. I strongly suggest you use those resources supplied, as you make statements that indicate to me that you do not understand what is known, what is speculated, what is outright nonsense, etc. about these subjects.


Oh, and uh, you do realize that MAM reactions don't produce enough energy to warp space and time unless it's with volumes of entire planets, right? It rather means that the MAM reaction is not the power that warps space and time, it just powers the warp coils. Now the warp coils are the devices that pull energy from subspace and immediately uses it to warp space and time and form subspace fields. This energy, this warp power, would be far in excess of anything a little dark matter can produce.

I do know of what MAM reactors are capable.

DO NOT CONFUSE STARTREK FANTASY WITH REALITY

You cannot change the shape of space/time without using a gravitational lens to alter event rayline paths over the interval. This means you refract using gravitation as a tractor/repulsor across the Higgs field.(Covered in Part 2)

There is no such animal as a travelling warp-bubble.

How does the warp bubble move? Hint; Unless you violate the Conservatiuon of Information Law it doesn't. Even with tacyons the Conservation laws mathematically hold since there is no before->just is.

I consider the UFP to be a living hell, much like those self-righteous societies constructed by the Vorlons, or the hypocrits of Minbar. The Colonials, I judge, to be of a similar mindset to myself.

What I observe in ST/TNG are Feds trying to impose their viewpoint on everyone they meet. That is cultural imperialism mixed with socialist totalitarianism.

The UFP would be a paradise of equality and freedom where one can do, believe, think, say, and antything esle one wants, as long one doesn't harm others.

Baloney.

There are numerous occasions where Jean Puke Leotard meddles in the affairs of the Klinks, Spook meddles in Rom affairs etc. and that just within the ST/TNG. Don't get me stated on the Cardies, the Doms or the Baj crowd in DS9.

After all, how did they judge the Eastern Alliance?

Like I would judge the Feds.

The Eastern Alliance were a bunch of fascists like the Nazis. They judged them wrong and incarcerated them, but didn't have the time to start a war with them since the Cylons were on their heels. They thus simply moved on.

The Eastern Alliance were patterned after the Communist block-not Nazis. Get the comparisons correct please.

One final note. It takes approximately one jovian mass of TEC energy to inflate a micro-wormhole about 1/4 proton influence radius to a usable aperature of about five meters influence radius. That is best done using dark energy to lens the gravitational effect to accomplish the inflation; as if you[stupidly] try to do this with a normal jovian mass of matter compressed into a hypermass, you are likely to produce a rip in spacetime that looks remarkably like a QUASAR.

The best means to do this, is with concentrated WIMPS-i.e. tylium. It is what the logical extrapolation of Colonial tech as seen on CBSG shows. THAT IS REAL AND POSSIBLE, MY FRIEND, and not Star Trek fantasy.

Now go in peace.

[Centurion Draco]

Part E_____________________

The Cartan exterior derivative operator d on forms generalizes the
gradient, curl and divergence. Together with its dual boundary operator
& on co-forms, there is a generalization of Stokes & Gauss's theorems to
N-dimensional manifold integrations with multiple-connectivity (e.g.
wormholes).



The p-dim form |p) is the thing integrated. The dual co-form (p| is the
manifold on which the integral is done. I use a variation on the Dirac
bra-ket notation.



The basic integration theorem, is like the adjoint operation in quantum
theory, i.e.



(&(p+1)|p) = (p+1|d|p)



The two identities



d^2 = 0



&^2 = 0



are analogous to the antisymmetric Pauli exclusion principle in quantum
field theory where



a^2 = 0



a*^2 = 0



a* creates a fermion, a destroys a fermion.



However, we use the notations ‘d’ and ‘&” partially introduced by John
Baez on p. 130 of his book, where he writes:



Ex. 1:



‘dtheta’ = (xdy – ydx)/(x^2 + y^2)



for the polar angle “theta” where



dr = (xdy + ydx)/(x^2 + y^2)



x = rcos(theta)



y = rsin(theta)



The 1-form ‘dtheta’ above is closed, but not exact. In effect this means



d’d’ =/= 0



ONLY when the integral is over a non-bounding co-form (AKA non-bounding
cycle).



Therefore, for this particular example, there is phase (theta) ambiguity
at the origin r = 0. When the closed loop integral



(&’2|’d’theta’) = (2’|d’dtheta’) =/= 0



encircles the origin r = 0 it does not vanish. Note that if the closed
loop integral of ‘dtheta’ does not encircle the branch point r = 0, it
will vanish. In this sense, ‘dtheta’ is closed, but not exact and &2’ is
not a true boundary because of the “hole” at r = 0. Note that the
co-form (2’| is the area enclosed by the loop &’2 minus the “hole” at r
= 0. If we extend this to cylindrical coordinates, then we have a
vortex core string provided we have a local U(1) complex order parameter
PSI(r,theta,z) such that



PSI(0,theta,z) = 0



PSI(r,theta,z) = PSI(r, theta + 2pi, z)



for equilibrium “stationary states” when the closed system relaxes
expelling excess flux in the Meissner effect.



In that case,



(&’2|’d’theta’) = (2’|d’dtheta’) = 2piN



N = +-1, +-2 ….



N = winding number around the string vortex core on the z-axis.



To review, the rigorous theorem is



(&(p+1)|p) = (p+1|dp)



Where



(&(p+1)| is a true boundary, which means



(&^2(p+1)| = 0



When |p) is exact, that means



|p) = |d(p-1))



and



|dp) = |d^2(p-1)) = 0



However, when the topology of the co-form manifold is multiply connected
we can have closed p-manifolds, AKA “non-bounding p-cycles”, (&’(p+1)|
that are not true boundaries together with non-exact p-forms |d’(p-1))
such that



(&’(p+1)|d’(p-1) = (p+1’|dd’(p-1)) =/= 0



The non-bounding p-cycles are p-dim wormhole mouths or “Star Gate
Portals” that are “Through The Looking Glass” Darkly as it were, down
the Rabbit Hole in Hyperspace.



Ex. 2:

Consider the 3D space-like metric of a static spherically symmetric
non-rotating uncharged wormhole Star Gate is



(3-metric) = dr^2 + f(r)^2(dtheta^2 + sin^2thetadphi^2)



Where f(r) is the wormhole shape function. Each wormhole mouth looks
like a closed spherical surface of radius R where



R = f(r*)



df(r*)/dr = 0



d^2f(r*)/dr^2 > 0



This closed S2 surface is not a complete boundary (&3| enclosing a
3-space because it has a twin wormhole mouth somewhere-when else perhaps
in a parallel universe next door in hyperspace. Therefore, all wormhole
mouths for actual time travel to distant places in negligible proper
time for the traveler are really (&’3| not (&3|. Furthermore, the curved
tetrad field B = (hG/c^3)^1/2’d’(Goldstone Phase) is not exact, i.e. in
a 1-D loop around the wormhole mouth S2 surface with the
multiply-connected quasi Stoke’s theorem



(1’|B) = (&’3|dB) =/= 0



This is the curved tetrad flux through the closed loop that “cuts” the
spherical wormhole mouth.



Ex. 3:

Given in cylindrical coordinates the vortex string along the z-axis



‘d’theta = (xdy – ydx)/(x^2 + y^2)



For any closed loop



(1’| = (&’2|



around the z-axis



(1’|’d’theta) = (2’|d’d’theta) =/= 0



i.e. Nonlocal Bohm-Aharonov “Flux without flux”



Given the above wormhole 3-metric define a Hodge * operation, with the
non-exact 2-form



3*’d’theta = (xdy/\dz + ydz/\dx + zdx/\dy)/f(r)^3



Where now we have a multiply-connected quasi-divergence Gauss theorem



(3’|d3*’d’theta) = (&’3|3*’d’theta)=/= 0



when (&’3| is a wormhole portal. There is now a radial 3*’d’theta flux
through the wormhole closed surface in addition to the ‘d’theta
circulation around a closed loop that cuts the wormhole closed surface
that is not a complete boundary.

End of Part 2.

If you muddled through that, 3DM, then you are ready for part three.

Yeah, but Q-Tips...
Can I use them inside my ear-hole, or just around the periphery?

;)

[Damocles]

Yeah, but Q-Tips...
Can I use them inside my ear-hole, or just around the periphery?

;)

I recommend around the outside of the ear, while you wear one of these;

http://www.epinions.com/images/opti/f5/ca/pr-Football-Adams_Grid_Elite_Football_Helmet_With_Pro_Guard_OPO_Face_Mask-resized200.jpg

For the outer ear canal, use a saline solution administered by one of these;

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00075EM6G.01-A32DBVQ990EQ3D._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

But in all seriousness, the only thing I would try to push through an inflated wormhole would be light. Anything that has appreciable mass you try to push through, will be ripped apart by gravitational tidal influences.

As always;

[Centurion Draco]

Stargate,
For all the reasons CD listed, but also becos it allows us a scenario different from 'find earth and then defend earth from Cylons' : the gate could be used as a contact medium, contact happens on another planet. It does not require them to have travelled to Earth (so Earth is safe) but allows them to engage with the thirteenth tribe.

I can just imagine Adama being welcomed to Stargate Command thru the gateroom.
The people of the fleet being resettled to a Safe world and the Big G free to be an attack weapon again...

Cheers,
Lara

I agree totally, I think the technology of the Colonials and the Stargate/ancient tech would fit together nicely.
I think the common theme of the 'ancient connection' with the van-daniken-esq 'chariots of the Gods' spin would make for some neat possibilities of interconection between the Gua-uld (sp?)/Tok-ra/Lords of Kobol/Light beings/Iblis.
There seem to be endless possibilites to connect the two 'universes' in clever, even unexpected ways!

[Damocles]

I agree totally, I think the technology of the Colonials and the Stargate/ancient tech would fit together nicely.
I think the common theme of the 'ancient connection' with the van-daniken-esq 'chariots of the Gods' spin would make for some neat possibilities of interconection between the Gua-uld (sp?)/Tok-ra/Lords of Kobol/Light beings/Iblis.
There seem to be endless possibilites to connect the two 'universes' in clever, even unexpected ways!

Speculation.

1. The Ancients, the Orii, and the Lords of Kobol are extra-galactic common human origin three branches. Ancients chose Earth and other local environs, The Lords of Kobol decided that the Coal Sack would be a good place to settle down, and the Orrii when they go rogue, get their own baliwick out in the Alpha Aurigae region.

2. For our purposes and coming off the dark energy/casimir influence/ micro-wormhole inflation discussion we shall speculate that the common technology denominator among these parties is Zero Pioint Energy or vacuum energy.(Highly speculative as we don't even know for sure that this is existent.)

But suppose that it is?

Naquadia(or however you spell it) sounds very much like normal matter accreted with WIMPS. There is your tylium tie-in which Star Gate and the Colonials can share.

The Asgard, the Tokrah, Ga'oulds et al can be bunched along the tech ladder as being between the Tahree and the Ancients. The Nox and the Ferlings are definitely at Ancient tech level or greater. Put the Colonials somewhere just below the Asgard.(The Colonials understand their tech, since they built it.) It is reasonable to speculate that some Colonials might understand how to build a ring transport device or even how to build a stargate, if they can reverse engineer an original device.

Given that and the EvD overtones of both series the story line could be that the Orii wiped out the Reptiles and then sent a Prior to corrupt the Cylon Artilects.

Take that idea(suggested originally by Lara and CD)and run with it next poster!

As always;

[Cdlzt]

I still like the idea of the cylons running around with some of the federations enemies, and a borg cylon could be quite deadly

[3DMaster]

The Feds would find Colonial justice a bit too Klinkish for their taste.

We've never seen the colonial justice system operational, but hey.


The point is that you were trying to draw a false analogu between the Borg and the Cylons. Two entirely differnt enemies with two entirely different motivations you try to make equivalent.

The Borg are nomadic cybernetic scavengers and amalgamators with no originality as imagined as a make-believe society or actual real theoretical basis in hypothesis as to a real possibility.That is, they are like most Berman Trek crap science-total fatuous unreality and ridiculous make-believe. The Borg are as impossible in truth as the correctness of the false analogy drawn between them, and either a Saberhagen Berserker or the Beserkers' near cousins the Artilects created by the lizard Cylons, that the Colonials have come to identify by that term-Cylon.

The Cylon machines are not cyborgs or radio linked organic hive minds with a little machine augmentation. They are Artilects.

No sweetheart, you once again try to derail the argument with information that has nothing to do with the point. The point is that both Cylons and Borg are both bent on the destruction of mankind, and both the Colonials and the Feds are fighting their respecive villians.

Politeness requires that I ignore the insult, and simply point out that you were unable to connect the dots. So I will explain your error to you.

1. You wrote that the Borg are equivalent to the Cylons and that would be sufficient reason for the Feds to absorb the Colonials. That is false reasoning. The Romulans are a common enemy to the Feds and the Klinks. Therefore the Feds should allow the Klinks to join them? Patently absurd, since the Klinks don't want to join the Feds. There is no reason to presuppose that the Colonials would want to join the Feds, based on such reasoning.

:rolleyes: Then I shall clarify to you what you don't seem to grasp (I don't have much hopes). You stated or at least implied that the Feds are a bunch of hippies who'd like to let the cylons live and let them have fun destroying the colonials, which would be why the colonials don't like to join the feds, and why the feds would tell the colonials to leave and don't come back. Too bad for you, the feds would like to see the Borg defeated and destroyed just as much as the colonials like to see the Cylons defeated and destroyed, the Federation therefor are not a bunch of space hippies, and they will see the cylons are clear aggressors whose only reason d'etre is the complete destruction of all mankind; which they'll prove by attacking the Feds about right away, at which point they'll fire back in defense.

2. You wrote thet the Cylons want to act like the Borg. Incorrect. The Cylons want to EXTERMIINATE humans-not turn them into drones. That is quite a difference in motivation and purpose from the Borg.

The end result being the same: no more humanity. In short, in the end, their goals are the same: the destruction of humanity.

Baloney;

Ro Laren was treated as a criminal and disrespected and MISTRUSTED. She was used to get at a Bajoran freedom fighter. Jean Puke used her as a PAWN for his own ends.

Let's see... that's because she WAS a criminal, and once she proved herself she was treated the same way everyone else was... oh yeah. The way she was treated however, had nothing to do with any religion. Oh yeah.

Supposedly she earned hs trust? She subsequently joined the Maquis as she found her treatment within Starfleet and the Federation's policies to be contemptible of her and to her.POV. Jean Puke as the champion of those policies was as big a bastard and villain on screen as any Clarkist. If you cannot see the evil in that petty bureaucrat, then you have not been paying attention to the dark underside of ST/TNG.[quote]

She did earn his trust, or else she was never sent to infiltrate the Macquis in the first place. Oh, yeah. Were those policies wrong and should those colonists have been protected from the Cardassians? Oh, yeah. News flash, the Federation isn't perfect, they are only human... oh, wait, and so are the colonials.



[quote]?????????????????????

You say that the Federation is some actual real construct independent of the producxtion crews and writers who transferred their prejudice from their minds to stories on film and in print?

To quote William Shatner, the actor, "Its just a show."

:rolleyes: To the colonials, should they meet the Federation, indeed, to them it would be a real construct. But you know, you're the one who'd like to consider the colonials as real constructs but nothing else, I get it.

[3DMaster]

Your Bolians;

http://www.geocities.com/therinofandor/Bolians.html

If you read the notes you will see references(not complimentary) made to Bolian body waste, name calling and lack of social graces, etc. That was considered to be normal tom the character treatment over the Berman Trek run. Therefore; I have demonsrtrated Fed racism based on blue skin prejudice. Deal with that.

Oh, I read through it. Let's see, Starfleet officer this, Starfleet officer that, wow what racism! Some body waste reference of which we don't even know what that is, and possibly simply a factual statement by a NON-FEDERATION person. And then some jokes on a name that sounds like foetus... oh, wait, that means they'd make some jokes on someone with the same (sounding) name that had a completely different skin-color, species even if he was human... blue-skin prejudice, where is does the skin color come in?

You are so absolutely deluded having the need to make them look bad, you've lost all ability of logic when it comes to Star Trek's Federation haven't you? I would go look up a psychiatrist for that, it's dangerous, in fact you scare me. And I'm not joking about that last part.

I won't get into a long treatise about Trek crap science and real science. I can explain everything seen on CBSG in terms of contemporary best science. Berman Trek pseudo-science from its unbelievable particles of the week to its ^replicators^[the correct term for such a device is TEMPLATER], transporters and holodecks is so much FANTASY. Before Roddenberry went nuts sometime during ST/TNG, Star Trek science was explainable in terms as grounded as anuthing in CBSG. The only crap science invoked was the transporter. However, once the senility set in and Berman took over? Fantasy.

Ah, I see... again trying to derail any argument with utterly completely and totally useless diatribe which has nothing to do with any point.

Fundamental errors that you write.
1. The Colonials do not have an FTL drive that allows them to go FTL whenever they want to. Where did you come by this nonsense? The Colonials have to have an FTL drive to cross interstellar space. That you don't see it on film(You didn't in ST/TOS) does not obviate the fact that we see them cross space( a lot of it) without noticable character aging. The writers wrote that into the scripts. Its an inferred technology capability to explain the film presentation. Deal with it.

Okay, let me explain it to you very slowly; as we have in other threads, and even written by you I believe: the colonials need to find a jump/lagrange/nuclear potential point between stars, at an edge of a solar system. (Hence sending out patrols all the time) They open this point go through it and come out the other end, which goes at FTL. This means; pay attention, try to use logic, I know you have it difficult with that when the ST is part of the equasion; that they can ONLY make FTL travel AT THESE jumppoints. Which means they can NOT go to FTL right this damn instant, whenver they feel like it, without such a jumppoint anywhere near where they are. In short, their FTL drive does NOT allow to go to FTL whenever they feel like it; unlike Star Trek's FTL drive.

Get it yet?

2. no replicators. Okay. Never mind that replicators are impossible.(QCD. Look it up.)

No, replicators are thought impossible by some present day physics. The Feds have 'em. And if the Colonials should meet the Federation, the Feds will STILL have 'em.

3. no shields. Is that so? See the thread on shields.

Yeah, it's a very good hull, with amazing energy refraction: still no shields. Imagine having THAT hull, AND shields around it. So any weapons fire can't GET to the hull unless first breaking the shields, and oh yeah, fighters won't get through shields either, the'll go squat on it, they'll have to destroy/weaken the shields first as well. AND THEN they still have to break that hull. I repeat: no energy shields.

4. possibly no FTL sensors. Baloney. In episode after episode, where we see Viper patrols out, the radio messages between Vipers and the Alligator should have at least a second or two delay. There is none. Conclusion? FTL radio. If there is a radio; then a radar or DRADIS is not far behind.

Even so, their sensors still have only a very short range, or else there wouldn't be a need for patrols to find stuff.

5. certainly not any sensors powerful enough to map things lightyears hence

http://star-www.st-and.ac.uk/~acc4/tboopages/tboo.html (http://)

Here's a hint. Go outside tonight and look up. You should be able to see this.

http://www.wsanford.com/~wsanford/exo/constellations/bigdipper.gif

http://www.dibonsmith.com/uma_con.htm

Need I point out that we at a range in excess of 88 LYs, have detected at least one planet in that grouping?

Yeah... does that actually map every single planet in that solar system, like it is now, whether there's life there, whether any ships are flying around there... like it is RIGHT THIS INSTANT, no, didn't think so... oh, and uh, that's not colonial tech, that's our tech. You do understand the difference, don't you?

As to patrols? Well we have aircraft carriers that have radars/sonars that search out hundreds/thousandsa of kilometers cubed volume all around them. We still put out a bodyguard sub and a CAP. Wonder why?

Ah yes, uh, well, you see, those aren't there to bodyguard the Galactica, there far too far away. In fact, at times the patrols are used to BOOST, the Galactica's sensor range. Also, the radio usually doesn't get very far, the patrols are very quickly outside of radio range, and need to fly all the way BACK to the Galactica in order to inform it of WHAT THEY FOUND. You get it yet? Not far range, hence requiring the patrols to do the scanning FOR the Galactica. That means it sin't there for bodyguard, they're there to search things the Galactica can't detect becasue it's too far away... oh, yeah.

You better learn something about dark matter before you say; can't.

Here's a basic primer;

http://astron.berkeley.edu/~mwhite/darkmatter/dm.html

http://www.astro.queensu.ca/~dursi/dm-tutorial/dm0.html

And a little something about WIMPs;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIMP

Funny thing about WIMPs. You could be embedded in a solid mass of them and yet move through them unimpeded except for the influence of gravity. These particles have virtually no detectable range of influence in the electromagnetic or the strong nuclear sense. Just the weak and the gravitational, and those in a mirror sense as to how we understand visible mass to work.

End of part the first;

Again, all of that doesn't matter. They're theories that have never been substaniated, and could all be completely utterly and totally false. There is ONLY one thing we KNOW about Dark Matter, and Dark Energy and that is that it's DARK. Hence, dark matter, hence we can't see it, hence we don't know what is, we don't know how many different kinds there, we only know it's dark.

[3DMaster]

Now for part 3.



I have supplied you with start points to address your ignorance concerning dark matter, casimir effect, virtual particles, WIMPS, dark energy and about what is speculated and expected. about these and how these inter-relate. I strongly suggest you use those resources supplied, as you make statements that indicate to me that you do not understand what is known, what is speculated, what is outright nonsense, etc. about these subjects.

That's a real nice set of caluclations you got there... oh, uh, what has that got to do with the Colonials again? Oh, yeah, nothing, because the show never actually told us exactly what they're using, only that it's solium, refined from tylium, which can be mined from planets.

I do know of what MAM reactors are capable.

DO NOT CONFUSE STARTREK FANTASY WITH REALITY

You cannot change the shape of space/time without using a gravitational lens to alter event rayline paths over the interval. This means you refract using gravitation as a tractor/repulsor across the Higgs field.(Covered in Part 2)

There is no such animal as a travelling warp-bubble.

How does the warp bubble move? Hint; Unless you violate the Conservatiuon of Information Law it doesn't. Even with tacyons the Conservation laws mathematically hold since there is no before->just is.

Well, you see, acording to the warp-drive theory of 1994/1995, the warp bubble actually doesn't move, that simply stays stationary, It's the universe that actually moves past the bubble, which is only used to keep the people and the ship inside from having to deal with relativistic effects and gravitational tidal forces.

What I observe in ST/TNG are Feds trying to impose their viewpoint on everyone they meet. That is cultural imperialism mixed with socialist totalitarianism.

If by the Feds viewpoint you mean: freedom of speech, freedom of choice, freedom of religion, and don't harm everyone in sight just because you feel that way, I would consider that a good thing.

Baloney.

There are numerous occasions where Jean Puke Leotard meddles in the affairs of the Klinks, Spook meddles in Rom affairs etc. and that just within the ST/TNG. Don't get me stated on the Cardies, the Doms or the Baj crowd in DS9.

Oh, let's see, when Jean-Luc Picard was ASKED by the KLINGONS to help in their affairs to choose the next Klingon High Counselor and later stops Romulan involvement in the Klingon internal matter. Right, oh, how bad; screw up diplomacy by telling the Klingons to <invective deleted><invective deleted><invective deleted><invective deleted> themselves you won't help with their affairs, or let the Romulans basically take over the Klingons.

Spock went to the Romulans without Federation knowledge and they wanted to get him back... so it's not the Federation, and since we're talking about the Federation/Colonials, how exactly does Spock's personal agenda have any baring on Colonial/Federation relationships? Oh, yeah, not.

The Bajorans have petitioned for Federation membership, and the Feds not once bothered with telling them they should stop their worshiping of the Wormhole Aliens as gods, but eh.

The Eastern Alliance were patterned after the Communist block-not Nazis. Get the comparisons correct please.

And the difference is... oh, right, inonsequential, both were about restricting choice, and killing those they didn't like...

One final note. It takes approximately one jovian mass of TEC energy to inflate a micro-wormhole about 1/4 proton influence radius to a usable aperature of about five meters influence radius. That is best done using dark energy to lens the gravitational effect to accomplish the inflation; as if you[stupidly] try to do this with a normal jovian mass of matter compressed into a hypermass, you are likely to produce a rip in spacetime that looks remarkably like a QUASAR.

The best means to do this, is with concentrated WIMPS-i.e. tylium. It is what the logical extrapolation of Colonial tech as seen on CBSG shows. THAT IS REAL AND POSSIBLE, MY FRIEND, and not Star Trek fantasy.

Now go in peace.

Yeah... sadly most of present day physics is also a load of bullshit that contradicts itself on many occasions, but eh...

Of course, still nothing to do with any percieved cultural hating of the Colonials versus the Federation, but eh.

[Damocles]

3DM

I have one question.

In that 2000 words you posted did you supply one fact of negation?

When I have time I will discuss this. Frankly I'm surprised that you want to return to this dead horse.

In the meantime enjoy this;

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/hate/darkstardatabase.html

It will provide you comedy until I can set aside time to answer your "discussion."

Now go in peace; :salute:

[3DMaster]

3DM

I have one question.

In that 2000 words you posted did you supply one fact of negation?

When I have time I will discuss this. Frankly I'm surprised that you want to return to this dead horse.

Dead horse? Me? I only just got a message that there was a reply in this thread, and followed it's link and answered some of your ridiculous claims. No reply to thread from someone else, no e-mail notification, nothing from me.

In the meantime enjoy this;

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/hate/darkstardatabase.html

It will provide you comedy until I can set aside time to answer your "discussion."

Now go in peace; :salute:

Ah, yes, I see... more stuff that has got nothing to do with any point that's being discussed. You really like throwing in offtopic useless things to try and throw people off the fact you don't have much useful things to say, do you?

[Damocles]

Dead horse? Me? I only just got a message that there was a reply in this thread, and followed it's link and answered some of your ridiculous claims. No reply to thread from someone else, no e-mail notification, nothing from me.



Ah, yes, I see... more stuff that has got nothing to do with any point that's being discussed. You really like throwing in offtopic useless things to try and throw people off the fact you don't have much useful things to say, do you?


Don't be obtuse; 3DM

There is an editorial comment buried in the "Darkstar" post. You just failed to acknowledge it. But it is there, like the elephant in the room.

I insist on remaining polite and subtle, when I comment on the quality of an opposing argument. It avoids disagrreeable language such as this.

You really like throwing in offtopic useless things to try and throw people off the fact you don't have much useful things to say, do you?

Now if you have a SINGLE scintillating fact of negation to the statements presented previously, then I'll discuss it.

Otherwise?

Go in peace.

[3DMaster]

Don't be obtuse; 3DM

There is an editorial comment buried in the "Darkstar" post. You just failed to acknowledge it. But it is there, like the elephant in the room.

Editorial comment? Buried? You think I'm going to waste time going through the entire bullfelgercarb line for line to find something they buried? I just fololwed the link, scanned very rapidly through what the hell it was about, and realized the obvious: more useless crap that has got nothing to do with any argument.

I insist on remaining polite and subtle, when I comment on the quality of an opposing argument. It avoids disagrreeable language such as this.

I start out polite and subtle, but when the other guy keeps bringing up things that has got nothing to do with any point being argued, I start getting testy. You see, when they do that, there's really only one reason: they already know they've lost, but instead accepting that fact, they try to make themselves look better by sprouting a felgercarbload of facts and other things. Of course, since those facts are no arguments, not even attempts at arguments, let alone arguments that actually have any bearing on what's being discussed, they've still lost. I point that out in the most effective way, sable it down like the crippled horse it is.

If on top of that, you come up with ridiculous illogical crap like, "Some fellow officers made fun of his funny sounding name, therefor the entire nation/federation hates his skin color" you're being a prick. And pricks I like to sable down just like a crippled horse.

Now if you have a SINGLE scintillating fact of negation to the statements presented previously, then I'll discuss it.

Otherwise?

Go in peace.

You know as well as I do, you hardly gave anything to negate. The Bolian point was about the only thing, and negated with simple ease. Most of the rest was sprouting information that has nothing to do with any point being discussed, so there's nothing to negate, and you know it, because you didn't have any real arguments left, making you resurt to the tactic of trying to make yourself look better by sprouting a bunch of useless information. Anyone with a brain, and it firmly locked on the discussion and points of contention, will realize with simple ease there's nothing that says anything about the points being made. To those, doing what you did, you made yourself look fantastically stupid.

[Darrell Lawrence]

We've never seen the colonial justice system operational, but hey."Murder On The Rising Star" ;)

[Damocles]

Editorial comment? Buried? You think I'm going to waste time going through the entire bullfelgercarb line for line to find something they buried? I just fololwed the link, scanned very rapidly through what the hell it was about, and realized the obvious: more useless crap that has got nothing to do with any argument.



I start out polite and subtle, but when the other guy keeps bringing up things that has got nothing to do with any point being argued, I start getting testy. You see, when they do that, there's really only one reason: they already know they've lost, but instead accepting that fact, they try to make themselves look better by sprouting a felgercarbload of facts and other things. Of course, since those facts are no arguments, not even attempts at arguments, let alone arguments that actually have any bearing on what's being discussed, they've still lost. I point that out in the most effective way, sable it down like the crippled horse it is.

If on top of that, you come up with ridiculous illogical crap like, "Some fellow officers made fun of his funny sounding name, therefor the entire nation/federation hates his skin color" you're being a prick. And pricks I like to sable down just like a crippled horse.


You know as well as I do, you hardly gave anything to negate. The Bolian point was about the only thing, and negated with simple ease. Most of the rest was sprouting information that has nothing to do with any point being discussed, so there's nothing to negate, and you know it, because you didn't have any real arguments left, making you resurt to the tactic of trying to make yourself look better by sprouting a bunch of useless information. Anyone with a brain, and it firmly locked on the discussion and points of contention, will realize with simple ease there's nothing that says anything about the points being made. To those, doing what you did, you made yourself look fantastically stupid.

I'll be blunt, then;

1. I have a lot written and referenced; but it is quantifiable testable, on topic, and negatable-even the Darkstar editorial comment I supplied you, if you attempted a coherent fact-based argument.
2. You have writtena lot, that is emotionaly invested wordage, not factually driven, is verbose in structure, repetitive, contains factual error, methodological/rhetorical/logical error, and when occasionally is factual- is easily negated with fact.
3. The Federation you so love in fiction as shown on film(Badly written SF by the way.) is;
a. fascist.
b. technologically inept.
c. socially incompetetent.
d. militarily useless.
e. scientifically moronic.

4. That is the result of a class set of liberal arts educated writers, who are lazy thinkers, without a grounding in either classical or technical education, who abandoned Roddenberry's basic utopian vision(he had that education background) and who never had the engineering and social background experience that Roddenberry brought to the show, that grounded ST/TOS in semi-solid humanism as well as "real" science, as it was understood in 1960.

(Its tough to write for television. The story has to be dynamic and attention getting to hold the viewer through the commercial. Formula storylines and production costs determine the way the story develops as much as the magic ratings point. That is why it is easier to write garbage than it is to write story. It is easier to cast buxom clothes racks instead of actors. It is easier to write the Trojan Horse bit [Star Gate Atlantis; episode Alliance than to write a new variation on the backstabber story.).

But Star Wrek has not that excuse. You could factor all those difficulties in,(I have) and the end conclusion is that it still is a steaming brown pile.

5. The Star Trek you espouse(a result of Rick Berman, Brannon Bragga, Jeri Taylor, and the SF TV production school from which a certain nefarious writer/producer received his start.... :Nsad: :rolleyes:) is a steaming brown pile of mush that I scoop up when I walk the dog.

6. I have a mind, trained in something called;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking. I use it, ALWAYS-for EVERYTHING.

7. Applying that training to your arguments, I noticed a certain mindset.

8. So I decided to give you a gentle nudge to alert you to the error class into which you were falling.

9. There is nothing like a mirror to show oneself; how one appears to others.

10. Example(My own personal mirror);

http://www.careerjournal.com/myc/officelife/20050729-loeb.html

I use it to self-check.

11. I seek to educate as well as learn when I discuss.

12. From you, I have learned a new definition for obtuseness.

13. From me, you apparently learned nothing, except repetitive close-mindedness to add to your long toolbox of emtional arguments.

14. I apologize for that. I failed on my side of the discourse to leave something new and interesting for my discussion partner(you) to mull over.

!5. Go in peace, trekkie.

[3DMaster]

"Murder On The Rising Star" ;)

No we didn't. We saw a colonial warrior do an investigation. We did not see the court in action.

[3DMaster]

1. I have a lot written and referenced; but it is quantifiable testable, on topic, and negatable-even the Darkstar editorial comment I supplied you, if you attempted a coherent fact-based argument.

No, it's not on topic. You're opinion on the Federation technology has nothing to do with what they can, and can't do and what would happen if the Colonials met the Federation.

2. You have writtena lot, that is emotionaly invested wordage, not factually driven, is verbose in structure, repetitive, contains factual error, methodological/rhetorical/logical error, and when occasionally is factual- is easily negated with fact.

No, you're the one with factual errors. "When a non-Federation person comments on Bolians' waste products, it shows the Federation hates the Bolians skin-color and is bigoted", and "When some people make fun of a funny-sounding name of someone that happens to be a Bolian, it shows the Federations hates their skin-color and is racist", from an entire page of Bolians that shows otherwise nothing but high-ranking and otherwise successful Bolians, is so far off the deep end with logic error and loose use of 'facts', it isn't even funny.

3. The Federation you so love in fiction as shown on film(Badly written SF by the way.) is;
a. fascist.

No, the exact opposite.

b. technologically inept.

No, their technology is one of the farthest ahead of any SF show, quite a bit farther ahead than the colonials of BSG.

c. socially incompetetent.

If socially incompetent means a virtual utopia where everyone can do as he/she wishes, where there's virtually no poverty, than yes.

d. militarily useless.

They have yet to lose a war.

e. scientifically moronic.

No, their science is quite a bit ahead of most other SF shows. Certainly quite a bit more ahead of the Colonials from BSG.

4. That is the result of a class set of liberal arts educated writers, who are lazy thinkers, without a grounding in either classical or technical education, who abandoned Roddenberry's basic utopian vision(he had that education background) and who never had the engineering and social background experience that Roddenberry brought to the show, that grounded ST/TOS in semi-solid humanism as well as "real" science, as it was understood in 1960.

Which once agian whether it's true or not has nothing to do with what would happen if the Colonials met the Federation at whatever time.

(Its tough to write for television. The story has to be dynamic and attention getting to hold the viewer through the commercial. Formula storylines and production costs determine the way the story develops as much as the magic ratings point. That is why it is easier to write garbage than it is to write story. It is easier to cast buxom clothes racks instead of actors. It is easier to write the Trojan Horse bit [Star Gate Atlantis; episode Alliance than to write a new variation on the backstabber story.).

Which still has nothing to do with Colonials meeting the Federation.

But Star Wrek has not that excuse. You could factor all those difficulties in,(I have) and the end conclusion is that it still is a steaming brown pile.

Which still has nothing to do with the Colonials meeting the Federation.

5. The Star Trek you espouse(a result of Rick Berman, Brannon Bragga, Jeri Taylor, and the SF TV production school from which a certain nefarious writer/producer received his start.... :Nsad: :rolleyes:) is a steaming brown pile of mush that I scoop up when I walk the dog.

Which still has nothing to do with the Colonials meeting the Federation and what would happen.

6. I have a mind, trained in something called;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking (http://). I use it, ALWAYS-for EVERYTHING.

A critical thinking mind, would check whether his link works.

7. Applying that training to your arguments, I noticed a certain mindset.

Undoubtedly the wrong ones, seeing as you can't even put up a working link.

8. So I decided to give you a gentle nudge to alert you to the error class into which you were falling.

I'm not the one falling in any error class, you're still expounding things that have nothing to do with what was being discussed.

9. There is nothing like a mirror to show oneself; how one appears to others.

10. Example(My own personal mirror);

http://www.careerjournal.com/myc/officelife/20050729-loeb.html

I use it to self-check.

You should check out some of the classical "debunk sites", apply your criticalal thinking to that, understand why a lot of people laugh at those 'debunk sites', and grasp how you look to me.

11. I seek to educate as well as learn when I discuss.

Me too, sadly some people have nothing to learn others apart from how NOT to debate. Sadly again, I already know how not to do that.

12. From you, I have learned a new definition for obtuseness.

Really? Does that include dumping felgercarbloads of "scientific facts" which have nothig to do with the discussion at hand? I did point that out to you that you were doing that, perhaps I'm getting through to you after all. Takes a while, but...

13. From me, you apparently learned nothing, except repetitive close-mindedness to add to your long toolbox of emtional arguments.

No. I do realize that what is you are doing, however I will never resort to that, therefor I didn't learn it.

14. I apologize for that. I failed on my side of the discourse to leave something new and interesting for my discussion partner(you) to mull over.

Indeed, there was nothing you could tell me that I didn't already know, apart from that there's an even greater level of being utterly illogical and close-minded. You take the cake pally. Go back above to your "logic" on Bolians to see an example.

!5. Go in peace, trekkie.

You too.

[Dawg]

No we didn't. We saw a colonial warrior do an investigation. We did not see the court in action.


"My defense IS on Alpha Channel!"

[bsg1fan1975]

Although I cast my vote for POTA, because of the story that I wrote, if I had a second choice vote, it would be for "V" in terms of the original miniseries only, which to me was a very good and well-written drama, but the second miniseries and the series was terrible.

Recall at the end of the first miniseries that Julie Parrish and Robert Maxwell are sending a radio signal out to the "enemy" of the Visitors in the hopes it will be received by them one day. That got me to musing one day about the what-if possibility that the "enemy" of the Visitors was none other than the Cylons, and you would have the interesting possibility of the Thirteenth Colony unwittingly appealing for help to the most sworn enemy of humanity!

oh heck yeah!

The cylons show up and then along comes the fleet and bands together with Earth and they wipe out both the Cylons and the Visitors in one big finish!

[Damocles]

No, it's not on topic. You're opinion on the Federation technology has nothing to do with what they can, and can't do and what would happen if the Colonials met the Federation.

What part of fascist did you miss?


No, you're the one with factual errors. "When a non-Federation person comments on Bolians' waste products, it shows the Federation hates the Bolians skin-color and is bigoted", and "When some people make fun of a funny-sounding name of someone that happens to be a Bolian, it shows the Federations hates their skin-color and is racist", from an entire page of Bolians that shows otherwise nothing but high-ranking and otherwise successful Bolians, is so far off the deep end with logic error and loose use of 'facts', it isn't even funny.

The factis that the condition exists(racism) inside Federation space. QED.

No, the exact opposite.

Logic error. A condition is not a vector.

No, their technology is one of the farthest ahead of any SF show, quite a bit farther ahead than the colonials of BSG.

Prove it is. I can prove it is not.

The Alligator takes kiloton event impacts(Saga of Star World/Battle at Cimtar). The Federation can't build a hull that can take a 50 mps collision(when the Enteprise collides with the Scimitar in Nemesis)

javascript:openwindow('/startrek/mediaview?id=13972','mediapopup','width=348,height=446') (http://)

Add the crappy warpcore technology as demondstrated by the Jem hadar fighter ramming the USS Odyssey? QED.

If socially incompetent means a virtual utopia where everyone can do as he/she wishes, where there's virtually no poverty, than yes.

Why was the perfect Federation s slow to acknowledge Data's humanity. Bigotry racism, and exploitation. QED. What about the holodoc duplicates used as slave labor in the Federation's mines?

Slavery. QED

What about the Sterfleet one party political state?

Fascism again. QED.

They have yet to lose a war.

Lost one to the Cardassians. Lost one to the Dominion. Imposed peace by the Organians. 3x QED.

No, their science is quite a bit ahead of most other SF shows. Certainly quite a bit more ahead of the Colonials from BSG.

Repetitive assertion with no facts to prove. Logic error.

Which once agian whether it's true or not has nothing to do with what would happen if the Colonials met the Federation at whatever time.

Bad writing is what produced that steaming brown pile which was on topic;

(Its tough to write for television. The story has to be dynamic and attention getting to hold the viewer through the commercial. Formula storylines and production costs determine the way the story develops as much as the magic ratings point. That is why it is easier to write garbage than it is to write story. It is easier to cast buxom clothes racks instead of actors. It is easier to write the Trojan Horse bit [Star Gate Atlantis; episode Alliance than to write a new variation on the backstabber story.).

You might want to reconsider your denial of relevance. The kind of Federation that the Colonials meet is on topic and the writers who produced that actual vision of the type Federation we see are the canon source. Not your imagined version of what that Federation is, but what is canon that those LOUSY writers produced.

Lousy Star Trek writing=lousy version of the Federation as seen on film. QED.

Which still has nothing to do with Colonials meeting the Federation.

Assertion, no fact of negation.

Which still has nothing to do with the Colonials meeting the Federation.

Third repetition of the logic error.


Which still has nothing to do with the Colonials meeting the Federation and what would happen.

Fourth repetition. This continued denial demonstrates closed mindedness and a lack of coherence in your presentation. Closed mindedness. QED in spades.


A critical thinking mind, would check whether his link works.

Nitpick detail and off topic. Favorite trekkie tactic. Still, thanks, corrected.

Undoubtedly the wrong ones, seeing as you can't even put up a working link.

Personal insult, also a favorite trekkie tactic.

I'm not the one falling in any error class, yo're still expounding things that have nothing to do with what was being discussed.

The error class stands; 3DM. If you argue like Darkstar then you fit the class set.

Your SIX previous comments prove this. QED.

You should check out some of the classical "debunk sites", apply your criticalal thinking to that, understand why a lot of people laugh at those 'debunk sites', and grasp how you look to me.

What debunk sites? Supply the site link and your dubious argument backed up by FACTS. Don't make general statements that amount to nothing but meaningless OPINION.

That is seven statements, unsubstantiated assertions, three offtopic comments, two personal insults, and five logic errors in this last seven statements. You argue like a trekkie. QED.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trekkie.html (http://)


I do not care abut how I look to you. As you can tell by now, I have more than enough means and incentive to self-check.

Me too, sadly some people have nothing to learn others apart from how NOT to debate. Sadly again, I already know how not to do that.


You are making this discussion personal? My comments are about your faulty presentation of fact and faulty logic. I suggested critical thinking as a corrective to this deficiency. You fail to properly analyze the basis of the discussion. That is sad.

Really? Does that include dumping felgercarbloads of "scientific facts" which have nothig to do with the discussion at hand? I did point that out to you that you were doing that, perhaps I'm getting through to you after all. Takes a while, but...

The scientific facts yu discredit go directly to the Federation' technical incompetence in the "canon" universe. Are you having trouble understanding the relevance to the topic point? That your perfect Federation is not? And demonstrably scientifically and technologically not? Sorry if you want to ignoree the canon reality, but thse idiots would last thirty minutes against current Human technology as we posess it now.

Their computers would be hacked.
Their shields overwhelmed.
Their ships shot down in close orbit.

That is from the capabilities we possess REAL WORLD.

No. I do realize that what is you are doing, however I will never resort to that, therefor I didn't learn it.

See the above(your replies).; That is sufficient negation to your false statement.

Indeed, there was nothing you could tell me that I didn't already know, apart from that there's an even greater level of being utterly illogical and close-minded. You take the cake pally. Go back above to your "logic" on Bolians to see an example.

Another personal insult, and a misrepresentation of the Bolian evidence. Incidentally where was the facts of negation you were supplying as to the evidence of Bolian ethnic slander in the Federation? Where?

3DM. when it comes to discourse and logical argument? You are discreditted.

I waste no more time with you.

[3DMaster]

What part of fascist did you miss?

They're not fascist.

The factis that the condition exists(racism) inside Federation space. QED.

LOL! Amazing! Talk about being closed-minded and unable to grasp logic. Even after pointing out the so obviously fallacy you still don't see it. No, the fact is, that the Federation practices no racism whatsoever, and NOTHING you showed shows ANY kind of racistical comments. Is there possible some racism, a few lunatic extremists among the 99% enlightened people, probably, but there's more racism in America and the average other country, especially seeing as there is no person in power that is racist, not a single equivalent of a polcie officer that is racist. Apart from the loons, there simply is no racism in the Federation.

Logic error. A condition is not a vector.

Fascims is totalitarian on leader, the opposite of totalitarian and one leader is democracy. Which the Federation ultimately is.

Prove it is. I can prove it is not.

The Alligator takes kiloton event impacts(Saga of Star World/Battle at Cimtar). The Federation can't build a hull that can take a 50 mps collision(when the Enteprise collides with the Scimitar in Nemesis)

javascript:openwindow('/startrek/mediaview?id=13972','mediapopup','width=348,height=446') (http://)

Add the crappy warpcore technology as demondstrated by the Jem hadar fighter ramming the USS Odyssey? QED.

Nemesis is one giant soup of continuity errors and plotholes, and shouldn't be considered. The Jem'Hadar fighter was going at full impulse nearly the speed of light. It was only shown slower on screen, because if it wasn't, all you'd see is a streak you couldn't identify.

Why was the perfect Federation s slow to acknowledge Data's humanity. Bigotry racism, and exploitation. QED. What about the holodoc duplicates used as slave labor in the Federation's mines?

Slavery. QED

Data was also the first artificial intelligence, and what was the outcome, oh, yeah, considered fully sentient and alive: not slavery. The holodoc duplicates were not sentient when used, nobody simply interacted enough with them to notice their growth as they stayed on longer and longer. Will undoubtedly be addressed.

What about the Sterfleet one party political state?

Fascism again. QED.

LOL. Starfleet is Federation's NASA and the closest thing to its military organization, not a party, and it does not control the Federation, the Federation council does, Starfleet works for them, and does as they say. There are many parties, across many different planets. Councillors from each member world are chosen and represent their world in the Federation council.

Lost one to the Cardassians. Lost one to the Dominion. Imposed peace by the Organians. 3x QED.

They never lost to the Cardassians, they never lost to the Dominion. They never fought a war with the Organions so they did not lose against them either (seriously, and you are the one to call me logically fallicious!?). The Organions are god-like beings who can shutdown entire fleets across half a galaxy. Losing to them has nothing to do with being good or bad at the military, they would have shutdown the entire Colonial fleet with no more effort than they did the Klingon and Federations fleets.


Repetitive assertion with no facts to prove. Logic error.

Understanding of subspace, shields, warp drive, control of anti-matter, vast medical scientific knowledge, cold fusion, detecting neutrinos with simple ease, generating artificial wormholes, and on, and on, and on. The Colonials have yet to show any of it.

Bad writing is what produced that steaming brown pile which was on topic;

No, it isn't on topic. You said the Colonials wouldn't like the Federation and the Federation couldn't teach them anything. Neither has anything to do with how good or bad the writing is.

You might want to reconsider your denial of relevance. The kind of Federation that the Colonials meet is on topic and the writers who produced that actual vision of the type Federation we see are the canon source. Not your imagined version of what that Federation is, but what is canon that those LOUSY writers produced.

Lousy Star Trek writing=lousy version of the Federation as seen on film. QED.

Critical thinking includes answering oneself now? And the Federation is a place of tolerance and freedom. If you're too closed-minded to see the obvious I can't help you there.


Assertion, no fact of negation.

I don't need to negate anything that doesn't have anything to do with any point being disgussed.

Third repetition of the logic error.

You're the one with the logic errors, and incapblitiy of seeing when something has nothing to do with any point being disgussed.

Fourth repetition. This continued denial demonstrates closed mindedness and a lack of coherence in your presentation. Closed mindedness. QED in spades.

LOL. I'm the one with the closed mind? Have you read your own ascertations on the Federation, now THAT'S closed minded. I'm simply pointing out a fact.

[3DMaster]

Nitpick detail and off topic. Favorite trekkie tactic. Still, thanks, corrected.

LOL. You know, I should have added to my observation of not checking a link that you're whole ascertation is once more off topic, but eh, I granted you one, I had hoped you figured out by now that your critical thinking or lack there of still doesn't have anything to do with the points being disgussed.

Personal insult, also a favorite trekkie tactic.

Ah, and you think you're doing anything else? Oddly enough, I have yet to say something totally illogical or factually incorrect whether it is on you or the points I was trying to discussed. All I get from you is illogical filled with vile hatreds. It's pretty difficult to insult someone with the truth.

The error class stands; 3DM. If you argue like Darkstar then you fit the class set.

Your SIX previous comments prove this. QED.

If Darkstar's way of arguing is "When someone makes fun of a funny sounding name, the Federation hates the guy with the funny sounding name's skin color and he's treated like a second-class citizen and bigotry", I'm far above him.

What debunk sites? Supply the site link and your dubious argument backed up by FACTS. Don't make general statements that amount to nothing but meaningless OPINION.

Every debunk site.

That is seven statements, unsubstantiated assertions, three offtopic comments, two personal insults, and five logic errors in this last seven statements. You argue like a trekkie. QED.

I'm the one with the off-topic comments. How interesting. It seems though, that any "offtopic" comment has been about getting you to stop them, but eh, you just keep thinking I'm the one with the off-topic comments.

If by logic errors you mean repeating yours, like say, "If a non-Federation person says something bad about a blue-skinned species waste-deposits, the Federation is bigoted toward the guy's skin color", then yes, I've been stating logic errors, they're yours however, and I've trying to point them out to you. But go right ahead, keep thinking I'm the one with the logic errors.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trekkie.html (http://)

I do not care abut how I look to you. As you can tell by now, I have more than enough means and incentive to self-check.

And yet, you keep forgetting to self-check those links.

You are making this discussion personal? My comments are about your faulty presentation of fact and faulty logic. I suggested critical thinking as a corrective to this deficiency. You fail to properly analyze the basis of the discussion. That is sad.

You should use your critical thinking to your Bolian arguments.

The scientific facts yu discredit go directly to the Federation' technical incompetence in the "canon" universe. Are you having trouble understanding the relevance to the topic point? That your perfect Federation is not? And demonstrably scientifically and technologically not? Sorry if you want to ignoree the canon reality, but thse idiots would last thirty minutes against current Human technology as we posess it now.

Their computers would be hacked.
Their shields overwhelmed.
Their ships shot down in close orbit.

That is from the capabilities we possess REAL WORLD.

Yeah, right, except of course you've never tried to hack their computers, of course, every other species on the Star Trek has tried, and came nowhere, not even the Borg, but eh.

Their shields overwhelmed, right, with what exactly? They take multi-megaton blasts routinely without too much trouble.

Ships shot down in close orbit from the real world. Right, of course, because our bullets reach orbit and pass harmlesslly through shields like they aren't even there. :rolleyes: The only weapons we've got that can reach orbit are a few nuclear ICBMS, who wouldn't even scratch a ship's shields, but eh, if you say so, I'll believe you... not.

Oh, and those scientific facts of yourse, they're not scientific facts. Dark Matter can be anything from planets, asteroids, MACHOs to exotic matter. The exotic matter and your dark matter? Never been proven, or shown, that's the whole point of them being 'dark'. The things were theoretically created to fill gaps in our scientific theories. "Dang, well if this is correct, our universe is too light, there has to be more..." And so they started creating things to fill those gaps. Never detected, never seen, never proven. If those orignal theories are incorrect or incomplete, it might very well mean we can toss 90% of all the dark and exotic matter and energy out the window as non-existent. But hey, you just keep believing that unproven theories, and never seen and detected stuff is scientific "fact".

In Star Trek, they've obviously already gone FAR beyond it. And some of them either exist and they can do anything with it they want, like detecting one of the forms of dark matter: neutrinos at will, or just consider it too primitive to bother with it.

Even if your little things WERE scientific fact, still doesn't matter. It simply means that in the Star Trek universe it is NOT scientific fact. Did all the stuff they use on ST work? It did, didn't it? That would rather mean that there it's scientific fact, and the reality of the place. They have shields that work, they can go to warp whenever they want to, they can open artifical wormholes wherever they want to, they can fly into the corona of a star without any trouble. They can do that, and should the Colonials arrive on their doorstep, the Federation can still do that, and the Colonials can't.

See the above(your replies).; That is sufficient negation to your false statement.

Stating a fact, is not an insult. You might percieve it as an insult, but it really isn't.

Another personal insult, and a misrepresentation of the Bolian evidence. Incidentally where was the facts of negation you were supplying as to the evidence of Bolian ethnic slander in the Federation? Where?

You didn't even give ANY evidence of Bolian ethnic slander. Let me summarize to you the page you gave me, again, and show you AGAIN the fallacy of your arguments:

Starfleet officer.
Starfleet officer.
Starfleet officer.
And a few more Starfleet officers.

Neelix, a NON-FEDERATION person says there's something to look out for with Bolian waste products. What that is, we don't know. It MIGHT be an ethnic slander, might also be their waste is acidious and might eat through standard plumbing, this would be a warning to a reality, and no ethnic slander. Even if it WERE an ethnic slander, it is made by someone who is NOT part of the Federation, NOT part of Starfleet, and therefor has NO BEARING on whether or not there's any Federation ethnic slander toward the Bolians.

And finally, the second not so nice event, a few people make fun of a funny-sounding name. Now exactly where is it stated, shown, given that ONLY Bolians have funny-sounding names, and ONLY Bolians are teased with when they do. That would be the only way it could have been an ethnic slander toward the Bolians. Sadly, I know of humans here, now, who have funny sounding names, and I've seen many Bolians who don't have funny sounding names, it would be not so far out of the realm of logic to assume, that no indeed, Bolians are NOT the only species with the occasional funny sounding name. Therefor there is no ethnic slander toward Bolians.

There are no other potenital pieces of evidence toward ethnic problems in the entire page you gave, I have hereby, once again, refuted successfully the whole ridiculous notion, and once again shown your two vast ridiculous logical arguments. While I'm the one who's supposed to be illogical according to you.

3DM. when it comes to discourse and logical argument? You are discreditted.

I waste no more time with you.

Right, because I'm the one who claimed that Bolians are ethnically slandered by the Federation because a non-Federation person makes a comment on a Bolian's waste-... oh, no, wait, that was you.

[BST]

:ahem:

Damocles and 3DMaster,

This "lovefest" between you two has gone on long enough.

Discuss the topic, in gentlemanly terms, or end the discussion.


BST

[Damocles]

:ahem:

Damocles and 3DMaster,

This "lovefest" between you two has gone on long enough.

Discuss the topic, in gentlemanly terms, or end the discussion.


BST

BST; as far as I'm concerned, the rules of what this forum allowed, and the tolerance threshhold limit of its membership had been reached.

Rather than extend the discussion further into pointless bickering and invite required action?

3DM. when it comes to discourse and logical argument? You are discreditted.

I waste no more time with you.

It's done.

As always; :salute:

[BST]

Damocles and 3DMaster,

What started out as an interesting contrast of opinions, unfortunately, degenerated into what was termed, "pointless bickering". Additionally, some responses got a little too close to "personalizing the attack" instead of simply presenting well-considered opinions. We, all, are succeptible to that happening and all need to guard against it.

Please don't misinterpret this as me telling you what to think, what to say, or what to do. The only request is to ensure that the discussion stays focused on the debate topic and not the debate participant.

I look forward to continued reading of your thoughts and ideas on future discussion topics.


With that in mind and the need to move forward, this thread will now be Closed.


BST