The Fate of the Pegasus?

[Apoptygma]

In the episodes "War of the Gods" there are several allusions that could possibly lead one to believe that wreckage on the planet where Iblis is found is the Pegasus ... Apollo and Starbuck note that the impact crater would have to have been from a ship the size of a Battlestar and at the end they seem emotionally shook up and try to keep Sheeba from looking inside the wreckage ...

It is quite open ended and could be for a variety of reasons, but it seems that Iblis also was aware of Commander Cain on a somewhat personal level ... as if he could see his character in Sheeba.

What is the general consensus on this subject around here?

[Bijou88]

When I first saw the episode back in 1978, My friends and I reasoned that it must have been the Pegasus. Why would Apollo want to protect Sheba from seeing what was inside? Since then, I understand that the novelization and the script described a demonic looking skelaton with goat's hooves for feet. I guess what they find on the planet is left up to the viewer's imagination. I can only wonder, where were the creator's going with this plot point? What would have happened in season 2?

[Sept17th]

I know the Pegasus was to show up for a two part episode in season two. With the crew replaced by human looking Cylons...not built by man. Bishop can fill in the gaps I think he has some season two writers guide.

[Eric Paddon]

That proposed Season 2 plotline was frankly a major shock when it surfaced several years ago since it was part of also slaughtering half the supporting cast (including inexcusably, Sheba) and in effect projecting for Galactica the kind of cheap second season that Space 1999 and Buck Rogers got. Frankly, I think this kind of second season would have been even worse than Galactica 1980 turned out to be, since that misguided idea is easier to dismiss.

[Charybdis]

I never thought that the crashed ship was the Pegasus. The storyline of the other battlestar was too good and they left it open ended so they could bring them back later on.

So...nope. The crashed ship was the remnants of other beings who followed Iblis and look what happened to them.

[WarMachine]

That proposed Season 2 plotline was frankly a major shock when it surfaced several years ago since it was part of also slaughtering half the supporting cast (including inexcusably, Sheba) and in effect projecting for Galactica the kind of cheap second season that Space 1999 and Buck Rogers got. Frankly, I think this kind of second season would have been even worse than Galactica 1980 turned out to be, since that misguided idea is easier to dismiss.

Wow. So much for GL...I've found that most sci-fi authors, 'concept' people, what-have-you tend to be truly, magically creative in very, very short spurts -- much beyond that, and they tend to lack drive and committment...

...Guess that's what fandom is for ;)

[Damocles]

Writing decent speculative fiction for TV is hard.

Writing five years of it on a budget, without watching the master story like a hawk, is almost impossible.

Ask the likes of JMS.

GL(who I do not heavily criticize) I speculate, was trying to write second season Galactica with an eye on the bottom line. Try writing an episode when the production manager tells you; you have only $200,000, and no budget for special effects shots, or more than five extras who have to play Cylons, bridge technicians, and Colonial Warrior extras, and maybe some clones, too.

Makes for interesting writing!

As always; :salute:

[Bijou88]

That's true. Many shows dropped in quality in their second year. Lost in Space, Buck Rogers, Space 1999 and SeaQuest are a few examples. Galactica fans tend to dream that a second season would be just as entertaining and special as the first seasson. It is possible that year two for Galactica could have been crappy. ( If you consider Galactica 1980 as year two, it was) In any event, I would have watched Galactica as long as it stayed true to the original premice.

[WarMachine]

Writing decent speculative fiction for TV is hard.

Writing five years of it on a budget, without watching the master story like a hawk, is almost impossible.

Ask the likes of JMS.

GL(who I do not heavily criticize) I speculate, was trying to write second season Galactica with an eye on the bottom line. Try writing an episode when the production manager tells you; you have only $200,000, and no budget for special effects shots, or more than five extras who have to play Cylons, bridge technicians, and Colonial Warrior extras, and maybe some clones, too.

Makes for interesting writing!

As always; :salute:

Let me try and make myself more clear.

A)It's one thing to go: OMG!!! :wtf: HOLY FELGERCARB!!!! THAT's GREAT!.....Then get slammed with budgetary concerns, and have to chesse-down the show.

B)It's quite another to say: "Well, I've got too big of an ensemble, I think. I know! I'll kill off a bunch of the second-string characters, replace them with two new people, and cheese-down the show so I can do some cool FX."


JMS's B5 was nearly always at the bleeding-edge of cancellation from Season 1, and the FX were "Galactica-Cheesy", accounting for the time and advancing technology. I guarantee that in 20yrs, people will look back on B5 and say it's virtually unwatchable, because the FX are so lame.(That is an argument I got not four days ago about CBSG.)

Yet the stories, by and large, only got better as the series went on. Maybe GL didn't have the staying power to work out a story-arc, or at least turn it into a space-soap...maybe he was just looking for the quick buck. Either way, the show suffered for it.

[Eric Paddon]

To me, the senseless bumping off of Sheba is what rankles most about this Year 2 memo. At the end of "Hand Of God" Galactica had finally clicked together in terms of the interactions among the characters. Apollo-Sheba was an emerging relationship that called out for further development, and much Galactica fanfic has been written in the years since capitalizing on that potential. To discover that Larson was so dense about this he was going to kill off the character in the first scene of the season premiere was as rude a shock as any of the others associated with being a Galactica fan over the years.

[Bijou88]

Warmachine-

Every sci fi series is a product of their time. Flash Gordon serials of the 1930s were ships on strings with sparklers in the back. When the original Star Trek first aired, the effects were state of the art. Now they seem quaint. Babylon 5 was on the cutting edge back in the mid 90s with cgi effects. Ten years later, yes, the effects look a bit outdated. but that doesnt take away from the power of each creation. Every show that is on the air today will be judged based on some future Special effects standard that does not yet exist.

[Damocles]

Let me try and make myself more clear.

Always a good exercise.

A)It's one thing to go: OMG!!! :wtf: HOLY FELGERCARB!!!! THAT's GREAT!.....Then get slammed with budgetary concerns, and have to chesse-down the show.

That is misunderstanding the FX for the story which is common for the purchasers of SF series or programming in general..


B)It's quite another to say: "Well, I've got too big of an ensemble, I think. I know! I'll kill off a bunch of the second-string characters, replace them with two new people, and cheese-down the show so I can do some cool FX."


????????????????????????????

If your budget, doesn't allow you to have a cast that large and you need to cut? Maybe some of the choices you make aren't ones you like. JMS didn't want to get rid of the actor who played Jeffrey Sinclair as that caused him to have to rewrite the part totally for Bruce Boxleitner. That changed the story arc completely(for the better) but it sure was a lot of(to JMS at the time) unwanted work.


JMS's B5 was nearly always at the bleeding-edge of cancellation from Season 1, and the FX were "Galactica-Cheesy", accounting for the time and advancing technology. I guarantee that in 20yrs, people will look back on B5 and say it's virtually unwatchable, because the FX are so lame.(That is an argument I got not four days ago about CBSG.)

The unmentionable is unwatchable because of bad writing, editting, camera work, a certain actor who mumbles,(Yes folks I'm writing about Commander in Chief! Its the worst science fiction on television.) not because of the special effects.


Yet the stories, by and large, only got better as the series went on. Maybe GL didn't have the staying power to work out a story-arc, or at least turn it into a space-soap...maybe he was just looking for the quick buck. Either way, the show suffered for it.

I prefer to be generous and say that the creative impulse that was in GL was overwhelmed by the size of the task he set himself.

[kingfish]

http://s4.invisionfree.com/Battlestar_Pacifica/index.php?showtopic=145&st=0&#last

[WarMachine]

????????????????????????????

If your budget, doesn't allow you to have a cast that large and you need to cut? Maybe some of the choices you make aren't ones you like. JMS didn't want to get rid of the actor who played Jeffrey Sinclair as that caused him to have to rewrite the part totally for Bruce Boxleitner. That changed the story arc completely(for the better) but it sure was a lot of(to JMS at the time) unwanted work.


Sorry.

I knew about this, but didn't have the exact link until I found it again via Kingfish's last post, below: http://www.geocities.com/sjpaxton/yeartwo.html

Dropping or changing a few characters that may not be working out is one thing -- killing or worse, "disapprearing" -- half the Season 1 cast is moronic...to say nothing of marginalizing Adama in favor of Cain. Having the DVD, and having seen the deletion of his scene with Athena in "Saga", I think it was the right decision, as it made him appear weak and frail, totally out of character with his entire performance.

This would most likely have killed Galactica more than G80 every could dream of doing.

[Damocles]

Sorry.

I knew about this, but didn't have the exact link until I found it again via Kingfish's last post, below: http://www.geocities.com/sjpaxton/yeartwo.html

<snip>

This would most likely have killed Galactica more than G80 every could dream of doing.

Any investigation to determine whether or not, if this might be a Dan Rather document?

As always;

[WarMachine]

Any investigation to determine whether or not, if this might be a Dan Rather document?

As always;

?????????????

[Eric Paddon]

The question being whether its a modern fake rather than an authentic 1979 memo. Sadly, the evidence points to the latter.

[Charybdis]

It does seem that the circumstances makes it seem authentic. If not, who in the world would make up such things?

[WarMachine]

The question being whether its a modern fake rather than an authentic 1979 memo. Sadly, the evidence points to the latter.

Ahh....Sorry Damocles -- I'm having a "week".....


It does seem that the circumstances makes it seem authentic. If not, who in the world would make up such things?

I would have to say that it's likely real...Who would make up things like this? Any dweeb with a hate on for CBSG/GL... :...:

[Damocles]

Mister Paddon, are you the gentleman that did some work for Disney(TM) when they needed some historical research for their Hall of Presidents animatronics(TM and Disney Copyright) presentation?

As always;

[spcglider]

No matter what Glen Larson says today, I firmly believe that the crashed ship was (at the time) supposed to be the Pegasus. The latter-day explanation that Glen gives about having some cloven-hoofed demon creatures in the ship wreckage not only doesn't make sense, but is just complete folderol (sp?).

We're talking about a spacefaring race of humans who have encountered many many many alien races. They stand side-by-side with them on Carrillon in the casino. There's no reason whatsoever that seeing cloven-hoofed alien beings in the crashed ship would either have disgusted Sheba, shocked her, or brought her to the conclusion that Iblis was evil. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

On the other hand, the comment is made "whatever crashed here must have been the size of a battlestar" when they approach the crash site. Iblis alludes to the idea that he has already encountered the Pegasus and Commander Cain. He even promises Sheba (in a most vague and esoteric manner) that she will, indeed, "see" her father again.

Run-on sentence conclusion:

So, knowing what we know about Count Iblis' Earth counterpart Satan (Prince of Lies) and his "mission" within the Christian pantheon, coupled with the "win at all costs" natuer of Cain's character and the horrendously transparent manner of story construction going on in late 1970's television (and particularly Battlestar Galactica), what would make anyone think it was something OTHER than the Pegasus crashed on that planet?

What would suddenly turn Sheba from loving Iblis to hating him?

How about burned and mangled HUMAN corpses wearing Pegasus patches on their colonial uniforms?

Yup..that'd do it.

Now I know, I know... Glen Larson HISSELF has stated that it wasn't the Pegasus and that it was never SUPPOSED to be the Pegasus. But examine the situation. They had no idea how popular Cain and the Pegasus would prove to be. In fact, they didn't know what they were going to do NEXT WEEK, much less plan another Pegasus story for an uncertain season TWO.

And umm... what about Baltar? Wasn't he dead? Alive? Dead? Alive after the events of the premier? It seems there's room in the Battlestar Galactica universe for revisionist history.

But NOW, Glen Larson wants back on the Battlestar bandwagon. He doesn't really have rights to Galactica, but due to gaps in contracts he DOES have rights to Pegasus! So he plans a whole new Galactica UNIVERSE movie story STARRING GUESS WHO???

Commander Cain and the Pegasus!

But its a widely accepted idea in fandom that the Pegasus was destroyed in War Of The Gods. Hrrrm. That's a problem. Well, he can bring Baltar back from the cinematic grave, he can bring Cain and the legendary Pegasus back too. More revisionist history in the Galactica universe.

I don't blame him. He should have rights to the whole shebang. But he doesn't and you can't hold it against a guy for trying to make a living... especially when it's his own ideas that he wants to exploit to do it.

-G

[Eric Paddon]

Mister Paddon, are you the gentleman that did some work for Disney(TM) when they needed some historical research for their Hall of Presidents animatronics(TM and Disney Copyright) presentation?

As always;

I would have loved it if it *had* been work for Disney (TM) with the money they've got! It was just a couple of retrospective essays I penned on the Hall Of Presidents for two Disney history websites ("Walt Dated World" and "Widen Your World") drawing on my own research. Glad to know you're familiar with them!

[Eric Paddon]

No matter what Glen Larson says today, I firmly believe that the crashed ship was (at the time) supposed to be the Pegasus. The latter-day explanation that Glen gives about having some cloven-hoofed demon creatures in the ship wreckage not only doesn't make sense, but is just complete folderol (sp?).

Except that it isn't just Larson who has been insisting otherwise. I would also reference the comments of story editor Terrence McDonnell at the 15 Yahren Con where he was quite emphatic on the subject. It was meant to be Iblis's minions and they had filmed a sequence showing a cloven hoof meant to point out that this was the Devil and his minions they were dealing with, but ABC censored the sequence. McDonnell's memory and recall of details is perhaps the best I have ever seen of anyone involved in Galactica's production, and after listening to him, I think it demonstrates that the whole Pegasus is the wreckage thesis is the real "folderol and fiddle-dee-dee." (to borrow the line from a song in "Cinderella")

I would also note that when you see something that represents the Devil, and you have a firm awareness of just what the Devil represents, that is going to spook you no matter what other lifeforms you've come across in your experience.

[WarMachine]

...I would also note that when you see something that represents the Devil, and you have a firm awareness of just what the Devil represents, that is going to spook you no matter what other lifeforms you've come across in your experience.

I thought the inference was supposed to be that the cloven hoof was connected to Count Iblis' body? Where did I hear that?......... :/:

[Damocles]

The question being whether its a modern fake rather than an authentic 1979 memo. Sadly, the evidence points to the latter.

Well,

I have to say I'm dissappointed, but not surprised. The next question is, did ABC go to GL and tell him they had "concerns", and did they make "suggestions" to GL; as PTEN(TM)[ditch Sinclair] and later Turner(TM)[change the uniforms like they did on DS9] did to JMS concerning B5 and Crusade?

Nothing killed creativity, then, faster than an Arbitron+accountant.

As always;

[spcglider]

Except that it isn't just Larson who has been insisting otherwise. I would also reference the comments of story editor Terrence McDonnell at the 15 Yahren Con where he was quite emphatic on the subject. It was meant to be Iblis's minions and they had filmed a sequence showing a cloven hoof meant to point out that this was the Devil and his minions they were dealing with, but ABC censored the sequence. McDonnell's memory and recall of details is perhaps the best I have ever seen of anyone involved in Galactica's production, and after listening to him, I think it demonstrates that the whole Pegasus is the wreckage thesis is the real "folderol and fiddle-dee-dee." (to borrow the line from a song in "Cinderella")

I would also note that when you see something that represents the Devil, and you have a firm awareness of just what the Devil represents, that is going to spook you no matter what other lifeforms you've come across in your experience.


Oh come on. You don't think that Glen talked with him and told him the "official line" on that subject? Why isn't that footage in the "cut scenes" on the DVD set? I believe it's not because it didn't exist. That's my gut instinct. Over the years absolutely NO images of the "grotesque foot" or special effects from that scene have ever been revealed. Not even by the guys who worked on it. And really... don't you think that with all of this controversy for so many years that SOMETHING would have turned up by now?

And your assertions about the devil are absolute speculation. Not having been to outer space, encountered aliens, devils, Count Iblis, or aliens that look like devils, neither of us is qualified to make that kind of statement with any authority whatsoever.

The fact remains, the whole explanation makes very poor "story sense". :salute:
-G

[Eric Paddon]

"Oh come on. You don't think that Glen talked with him and told him the "official line" on that subject?"

Actually, the burden of proof is not on me to prove a negative, but for you to produce a memo or some tangible proof stating that McDonnell is lying. Since McDonnell hasn't been in Larson's employ since 1979, there is very little reason for him to lie to a convention of fans 15 years later when he was drawing a comfortable living working for the game show Jeopardy. If you want to impeach what McDonnell has said on this point, you need a lot more than your "gut instinct" and your preference for it as a story point.

"Why isn't that footage in the "cut scenes" on the DVD set?"

Because you make the leap of faith that every bit of cutting room floor footage for that series was preserved for the DVD. It wasn't. I can point to plenty of examples of what didn't make the DVD set (including one scene from the LPOTG telemovie, not to mention the blooper reel, or the scene of Starbuck in the tube with Cassie with his shirt off) and that is not evidence that this scene never existed. The burden of proof is on you to produce a draft script or a memo that says this was the Pegasus.

"And really... don't you think that with all of this controversy for so many years that SOMETHING would have turned up by now?"

Considering that routine practice is to destroy a lot of that stuff once a show is cancelled, given what I know of how bad archival practices are in the studios, the fact that *anything* was left 25 years later for the DVD set was surprising to me.

"And your assertions about the devil are absolute speculation."

Actually, I'm basing my assertion on the real point of what those of us in the real world would think if confronted by the forces of the Devil, which requires less speculation on my part, than insisting the wreckage is that of the Pegasus.

"The fact remains, the whole explanation makes very poor "story sense"."

Actually made perfect sense to me. We were going to get a big dramatic moment revealing Iblis as the Devil, and fortunately the script did enough to cover that point so that excising this sequence didn't affect our ability to comprehend the storyline. Besides, it makes *less* story sense for it to be the Pegasus, since why would we not see Starbuck being forthright with Sheba about it later? Why is there no subsequent reference to it, especially when Commander Cain's name comes up again in "Hand of God"?

[spcglider]

"Oh come on. You don't think that Glen talked with him and told him the "official line" on that subject?"

Actually, the burden of proof is not on me to prove a negative, but for you to produce a memo or some tangible proof stating that McDonnell is lying. Since McDonnell hasn't been in Larson's employ since 1979, there is very little reason for him to lie to a convention of fans 15 years later when he was drawing a comfortable living working for the game show Jeopardy. If you want to impeach what McDonnell has said on this point, you need a lot more than your "gut instinct" and your preference for it as a story point.

Which is exactly why I noted it as gut instinct. Having worked in advertising for 15 years I have developed a good sense for when people change their story. I'm getting this vibe from all this stuff.

I'm not calling Mr. McDonnell a liar. In fact, I'll even go so far to admit that they had this in mind as a possible ending. I just don't buy it. My opinion.


"Why isn't that footage in the "cut scenes" on the DVD set?"

Because you make the leap of faith that every bit of cutting room floor footage for that series was preserved for the DVD. It wasn't. I can point to plenty of examples of what didn't make the DVD set (including one scene from the LPOTG telemovie, not to mention the blooper reel, or the scene of Starbuck in the tube with Cassie with his shirt off) and that is not evidence that this scene never existed. The burden of proof is on you to produce a draft script or a memo that says this was the Pegasus.


Not from my point of view. To me it's just the opposite. My belief is that the evidence leans towards it being the Pegasus. Until solid proof is established to the contrary (in the form of footage or on-set or behind the scenes photography) I'll continue to believe so. Show me a shot of a devil foot. I'll be happy to change my opinion.


"And really... don't you think that with all of this controversy for so many years that SOMETHING would have turned up by now?"

Considering that routine practice is to destroy a lot of that stuff once a show is cancelled, given what I know of how bad archival practices are in the studios, the fact that *anything* was left 25 years later for the DVD set was surprising to me.


The abscence of evidence isn't considered evidence. In any case.


"And your assertions about the devil are absolute speculation."

Actually, I'm basing my assertion on the real point of what those of us in the real world would think if confronted by the forces of the Devil, which requires less speculation on my part, than insisting the wreckage is that of the Pegasus.


Except for those of us who do not believe in the Christian pantheon. As far as I'm concerned, we're talking about one ficticious character versus another. If someone was confronted by the fantastic every day, then being confronted by something less-than-fantastic wouldn't change their attitude. The only reason the devil is scary is because nobody has ever seen him. He represents all the subconcious Boogey men we've ever had occasion to imagine. If you saw devil-like or even merely "different" alien life forms on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis, what surprise would you have at seeing them later? The forces of the devil? Just more cloven hoofed aliens that can be destroyed by crashing their spacecraft. The powers of Iblis? Nothing more than advanced science according to Commander Adama and the Beings of Light.

I still see no reason for Sheba to react that way. My opinion.


"The fact remains, the whole explanation makes very poor "story sense"."

Actually made perfect sense to me. We were going to get a big dramatic moment revealing Iblis as the Devil, and fortunately the script did enough to cover that point so that excising this sequence didn't affect our ability to comprehend the storyline. Besides, it makes *less* story sense for it to be the Pegasus, since why would we not see Starbuck being forthright with Sheba about it later? Why is there no subsequent reference to it, especially when Commander Cain's name comes up again in "Hand of God"?

From a character arc standpoint, I'm afraid I have to dis-agree with that. I don't find any validity at all to the idea that Sheba would react that way to seeing cloven hoofed aliens...because according to the continuity, aliens they were. Even the Beings of Light admitted to being simply advanced aliens.

The ship was a crashed ship. Sheba couldn't have dismissed that it MUST have had a crew of some type. Devoid of hyper-mystical evidence, we are to assume aliens. In fact Iblis states flat out that none of the crew survived the crash. Only him. So the idea that there are dead bodies in the wreckage is given. It is only the nature of the dead bodies that is in question.

The character of Sheba had to see something SHOCKING in order to turn her away from Iblis. Something that PROVES to her that Iblis is doing nothing but LYING to her.

I simply just don't buy into the idea that seeing some twisted alien bodies in the wreck would cause Sheba to reject Iblis. His power over her was strong enough to withstand having her see Iblis threaten the Commander and Apollo and the entire fleet and believe that he was doing them all good.

Dead aliens isn't a very good impetus. They could have crashed that ship out of pure incompetence. But dead Colonials is. Colonials wouldn't crash.

As far as mentioning it at a later time, how many episodes did THAT sort of continuity happen in? Not many. The biggest example of that is probably the convalescence of Commander Adama. Otherwise, there really isn't any mention of the OTHER pilots from the Pegasus that needed to be folded into the ranks of the Galactica nor just about any of the other plausible effects of the Pegasus encounter. We never see or hear from Robber or his family ever again after The Long Patrol. We never hear from Chameleon after The Man With 9 Lives. That sort of continuity wasn't in vogue at the time. Remember, we're talking the 1970's... not the 1990's. These shows needed to be played out of sequence and be relatively self-contained. Its a difference in current writing style that can't be called into blame in hindsight.

So what we have here is a perfect example of the classic rift experienced in every Galactica community.

You buy the cloven hoofed devil minion theory, I don't.

You think the evidence weighs in your opinion's favor. I don't.

I still respect your opinion but I don't agree with it. I hope you do the same. :salute:

-Gordon

[peter noble]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the season two outline "Return of the Pegasus" yet. :D

[spcglider]

Yup, read that! Its a perfectly valid followup. In the end, it doesn't change the idea that Cain and the crew of the Pegasus are destroyed if I remember correctly.

-G

[Eric Paddon]

Which is exactly why I noted it as gut instinct. Having worked in advertising for 15 years I have developed a good sense for when people change their story. I'm getting this vibe from all this stuff.

Well sorry, but when we've had 25 years of consistency on this point where not one single person, be it the cast, writers or production team of the show has ever advanced this theory, and we have the scripts, the novelization and the emphatic recollections of those who were in a position to know, then my whole approach as a historian is to say that we can pretty much form one reasonable conclusion based on that mountain of evidence that's piled up. That's the process I go by, and it's one that I think usually works better.

Not from my point of view. To me it's just the opposite. My belief is that the evidence leans towards it being the Pegasus.

What "evidence" are we talking about though, other than your "gut instinct" that this made for a better plot device (when it really didn't)? I think the side that has the tangible evidence of the statements of those who were involved in what happened is what should count for more. Produce a memo, or a script draft or a contemporaneous statement of a production team member, and then I've got "evidence" to consider. Until it's there, there's no "evidence" for me to judge except wishful speculation.

"The abscence of evidence isn't considered evidence. In any case."

Except in this instance, the other side doesn't have an "absence of evidence". It's got some tangible things that you have to argue against beyond your desire to declare Larson imposing a "company line" on all others who were in the know on this. Terrence McDonnell as story editor was the one who had to look over the scripts even if he didn't write the episode, and he was the one who would call Larson out if he forgot himself and wrote "minute" instead of "centon." If there was one thing in the stage directions to indicate otherwise, he would have mentioned it. Watching Terrence on the 15 Yahren Con video, you see a man with a fantastic power of recall on minute details (so much so, that Jim Carlson, who worked with him as story editor, apologized for the fact that his memory for detail wasn't as good) and he was emphatic on this because he was talking from personal experience.

"Except for those of us who do not believe in the Christian pantheon."

And here, I am afraid you're injecting your own personal bias into the mix. Whether you believe in it or not, Galactica as it was developed, took its religion predominately from the Judeo-Christian view of things in shaping its concept of religion, and we have to therefore judge the characters according to that similar kind of template, and not because we transpose our own beliefs on the situation.

"The character of Sheba had to see something SHOCKING in order to turn her away from Iblis."

And again, I see this as injecting your own bias in which you refuse to acknowledge the perspective of one shaped according to a Judeo-Christian concept of the Devil that an unmistakable sight of the Devil based according to the culture. Remember how Apollo then tries to shake Sheba out of her stupor by citing the names of Diabolos and Mephistopholes and asking her to recall the ancient writings on those names? If your theory were correct, Apollo would be shouting, "He killed your father!" not spouting the perceived truisms of Colonial religion.

"Dead aliens isn't a very good impetus. "

This is once again constructing a strawman. You refuse to acknowledge the perspective that for those of a belief system different from your own that is still reflected in that show, that the Devil's minions would represent something more than "Dead aliens".

"As far as mentioning it at a later time, how many episodes did THAT sort of continuity happen in?"

More often in Galactica than any previous series of its time. In fact so much so this is precisely why the show can never be watched out of sequence. But at the same time, you've left out the other big problem with your theory which is the fact that neither Apollo nor Starbuck mentions it any time the rest of the way in WOTG.

"I still respect your opinion but I don't agree with it. I hope you do the same."

But to me though, this is not the kind of debate that lends itself to the subjective realm of what would have dramatically been a better idea or not where a truly perfect answer can never be discerned. Ultimately, I'm either right or you're either right on this issue and one of us is wrong because the matter of what was intended by the participants involved happened just one way. You are free to hold your own view on the subject, but I think we need to recognize that for something that has ultimately one objective answer to it, we have to ultimately let the preponderance of the evidence be our guide, and nothing else.

[Damocles]

Well sorry, but when we've had 25 years of consistency on this point where not one single person, be it the cast, writers or production team of the show has ever advanced this theory, and we have the scripts, the novelization and the emphatic recollections of those who were in a position to know, then my whole approach as a historian is to say that we can pretty much form one reasonable conclusion based on that mountain of evidence that's piled up. That's the process I go by, and it's one that I think usually works better.


[Editor's note; Unless specified otherwise, the quotes are those attributed to Mister Paddon, Damocles]

Barring the production of something to negate the prevailing hypothesis. you go with the hypothesis. That is as true for history, as for any other discipline that calles itself scientific. That was why I was dissappointed to learn that the 1979 memo was most likely, authentic. It demolished a hypothesis that I had formed. Such a memo was so in keeping with the prevailing re-manufacture and distortion of ^CBSG history^ that was attempted by biased parties at the time of 2003. Using a planted document was not above the ethics of certain people in that specific case.


What "evidence" are we talking about though, other than your "gut instinct" that this made for a better plot device (when it really didn't)? I think the side that has the tangible evidence of the statements of those who were involved in what happened is what should count for more. Produce a memo, or a script draft or a contemporaneous statement of a production team member, and then I've got "evidence" to consider. Until it's there, there's no "evidence" for me to judge except wishful speculation.


In actuality, if there was not the testimony of production personel, the novelizations, and so forth, if all that was extant was the film, then the Pegasus crashed hypothesis proposed ^might^ be argued on internal evidence. But there is that ^document^ among other evidence to negate the hypothesis.

"The abscence of evidence isn't considered evidence. In any case."

That is bad science. The absence of evidence is indeed evidence: that you need to investigate before you assert. You have a phenomenon that needs investigation, and a hypothesis you need to formulatre to test by negation before you assert a conclusion.

Except in this instance, the other side doesn't have an "absence of evidence". It's got some tangible things that you have to argue against beyond your desire to declare Larson imposing a "company line" on all others who were in the know on this. Terrence McDonnell as story editor was the one who had to look over the scripts even if he didn't write the episode, and he was the one who would call Larson out if he forgot himself and wrote "minute" instead of "centon." If there was one thing in the stage directions to indicate otherwise, he would have mentioned it. Watching Terrence on the 15 Yahren Con video, you see a man with a fantastic power of recall on minute details (so much so, that Jim Carlson, who worked with him as story editor, apologized for the fact that his memory for detail wasn't as good) and he was emphatic on this because he was talking from personal experience.

The historian gathers his evidence from ^first sources^. What is presented above, qualifies as ^first sources^.


"Except for those of us who do not believe in the Christian pantheon."

Observer bias. The observer has tremendous difficulty separating his own point of view from the evidence. That blinds him to what the evidence in its context shows him. For example; if I'm a proponent of Modified Newtonian Dynamic gravitational theory and I suggest a simplified mechanical equation to describe Solar and Galactic gravitational rotational paradoxes as exposed in the current calculations of GTR, but fail to account for the lumpiness and discreteness in space/time PROVEN experimentally, then I have let my bias prevent me from applying the gauge theory corrections, that I need to make my version of MOND work.(It won't. Gravitational influence is as much a property of SPACE/TIME[the interval], as it is of mass. That is why gravitational influence is so hard to describe.)

And here, I am afraid you're injecting your own personal bias into the mix. Whether you believe in it or not, Galactica as it was developed, took its religion predominately from the Judeo-Christian view of things in shaping its concept of religion, and we have to therefore judge the characters according to that similar kind of template, and not because we transpose our own beliefs on the situation.

Restated in terms of the religion bias. "Putting things in context." is how I believe historians once described it?

"The character of Sheba had to see something SHOCKING in order to turn her away from Iblis."

The hypothesis is consistent with the filmed evidence as seen. Now any supposition beyond that hypothesis needs clarifying ^special case^ evidence as we have many cases of heroines turned away from a death scene by heroes. What evidence do we have here, that applies specifically to Sheba, other than the generic dramatic treatment as I just described for this set?

And again, I see this as injecting your own bias in which you refuse to acknowledge the perspective of one shaped according to a Judeo-Christian concept of the Devil that an unmistakable sight of the Devil based according to the culture. Remember how Apollo then tries to shake Sheba out of her stupor by citing the names of Diabolos and Mephistopholes and asking her to recall the ancient writings on those names? If your theory were correct, Apollo would be shouting, "He killed your father!" not spouting the perceived truisms of Colonial religion.

Invalid internal evidence argument. There are examples(numerous) on film; where the hero lies to shield the psyche of the heroine, under these presented conditions as described in this set. Take many an episode, with an incident so constructed on Bonanza. What does Little Joe do? You guessed it.

"Dead aliens isn't a very good impetus. "

Phobias.

This is once again constructing a strawman. You refuse to acknowledge the perspective that for those of a belief system different from your own that is still reflected in that show, that the Devil's minions would represent something more than "Dead aliens".

Dead aliens, alone, would be sufficient to produce a panic reaction, even if the Human routinesly encountered aliens as part of his/her life experience. Its a condition called Xenophobia. It exists. It is observed, it is most real and dangerous as a mental illness.

"As far as mentioning it at a later time, how many episodes did THAT sort of continuity happen in?"

Not relevant to the discussion[Red Herring]. If the Peg is mentioned, then it is part of the canon, and it is up to the investigator to explain the observation inside his hypothesis. If he cannot? Reformulate.

More often in Galactica than any previous series of its time. In fact so much so this is precisely why the show can never be watched out of sequence. But at the same time, you've left out the other big problem with your theory which is the fact that neither Apollo nor Starbuck mentions it any time the rest of the way in WOTG.

Adama's injuries are a side issue. The folding in of the Peg's stay behinds is as explainable to us, as never seeing the Alligator's engineering division at work on camera. They are just not story relevant in context at the time of the presentation.

"I still respect your opinion but I don't agree with it. I hope you do the same."

Any discussion of opinions ON ANY SUBJECT? Evidence is the only currency of resolution.


But to me though, this is not the kind of debate that lends itself to the subjective realm of what would have dramatically been a better idea or not where a truly perfect answer can never be discerned. Ultimately, I'm either right or you're either right on this issue and one of us is wrong because the matter of what was intended by the participants involved happened just one way. You are free to hold your own view on the subject, but I think we need to recognize that for something that has ultimately one objective answer to it, we have to ultimately let the preponderance of the evidence be our guide, and nothing else.

The preponderence of the evidence indicates the outcome of this disagreement. The Peg would have survived into Season 2 as GL planned. Now the question I want answered is, "Which Peg?"

Unfortunately in terms of concrete evidence, the ^pitch^ for Season 2 might have morphed into something totally different from what GL proposed.(Example JMS snookered the PTB when he sold Season 2 of B5. They thought they were getting DS9 lite, and he gave them THE ARC.)

We just don't know. What we have for evidence is what we have.

What we do know is that GL put out Galactica 1980(which does not exist except for ^The Return of Starbuck^)

That speaks volumes to me, now, about GL and his intentions. Regrettably. :...:

As always; :salute:

[kingfish]

It would have to be the psudo Pegasus. We must assume that the Cylons managed to design a battlestar, outfit it with replicas, and sent it on a mission. The end results is the ship is lost. Remember the episode of os Trek, The Mark of Gideon where Kirk beams into an exact replica of the Enterprise which is on the planet and has no space flight ability? Getting back to the discussion, Larson saw the advantage/popularity of an individual Pegasus storyline, ie he patented the entire thing after LL aired but left some of the characters with the BG universe, Bojay and Sheba. Killing Sheba off would severe this tie because Bojay[Jack Stauffer] wasn't seen again after WoTG. Larson planned on a movie in which the real Pegasus found earth and the atlantian connection, the battlestar Atlantis not Atlantia. I wonder how much of SG:Atlantis borrowed from this proposed script? Remember week after week the Pegasus galaxy is spoken of. IMHO killing off Sheba would have stunk big time. Also many of the original characters were to undergo startling changes, Apollo was going to become more like Starbuck, a womanizer who doesn't give a crap about duty. Starbuck was going to be monogomous and only be with cassi. he was even going to be a Colonel as terry carter and half of the original cast were going bye bye. Boomer was going to become a super genius via Dr Zee.

[mikedx]

Hey gang,

I have an original version of a early script for WOTG, parts 1 & 2, as well as an original shooting schedule. I'll have to wait till tonight to look at the script, but I have a photocopy of the shooting schedule at work.

Here's a scan of page 8. See that it says "Discover Demon" in the scene description. It lists "A Demon" under a line in the actors working column. When they list under a line, it means it's not a character with a specific name. Like pilots, guards, stunt doubles. Also note "cloven hoof" in the props column. This scene was scheduled to be shot 2/14/78. The date of the shooting script is 12/8/78. If I find anything in the script I'll let you know. As for me, I thought for 25 years that it was the Pegasus. Everything seemed to point to it. But I was wrong.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a25/mikedxx/warscript1.jpg

Also note that Iblis was originally named Count Diabolis. Took me awhile to realize they got Iblis from dIaBoLIS. I figure Diabolis was a bit harsh for "family hour". Another funny thing is that the schedule is dated 12/8, while the first day of shooting scheduled was 12/7. Shows how they kept getting behind.

Hope this helps,
Mike

[Eric Paddon]

Thanks for sharing that! That confirms what McDonnell had said about that being called for in the script, though I had never seen a copy of the shooting script myself. I think that as far as determining what was on the minds of the production people, we've settled the objective question.

The objective question of what they were planning, I should say, doesn't mean it should affect our subjective judgments of what would have been better storytelling. So for those who think the Pegasus bit is ultimately a better idea from a storytelling standpoint, then they should feel free to write their own fanfic that explores that possibility. There's certainly room for it in this vast sea of fanfic that Galactica has generated! :)

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by SPCGlider
"The abscence of evidence isn't considered evidence. In any case."

[Originally Posted by Damocles] That is bad science. The absence of evidence is indeed evidence: that you need to investigate before you assert. You have a phenomenon that needs investigation, and a hypothesis you need to formulatre to test by negation before you assert a conclusion.

...The problem being how said evidence(or lack, thereof) is tested, and how those results are interpreted by observers. Once outside the boundry of "hard" sciences like algebra/trig/calc/chemistry/etc, you move into the realms of speculation, which by definition are open to interpretation in the absence of verifiable evidence.

In the case of this specific issue, i.e. the "Red Planet Wreckage" being the remains of the Pegasus, I think that the circumstantial and documentary evidence presented by EP and MikeDX far outweigh SPCGlider's "gut instinct".

All the same, I still stand on my conclusion that GL had/has serious problems of "staying power" vis concept and storyline, based on the proposed second season storyline.

Additionally, I do find the ref's to SG-Atlantis drawing directly on CBSG very interesting, the more so in light of that show's close ties to GINO 2.0.

I always regarded ST:Voyager as a direct rip-off of CBSG - right down to the ship: rip off the 'Gators engine aft, and flip the old girl on her back -- compare to Voyager...then compare the overall plotline. :rolleyes:

[spcglider]

Well then, there you have it.

I sit corrected. Mainly because its a pain to stand and type at the same time.

This fully and entirely refutes any suspected proof I might have clung to. Thank you for sharing the evidence.

And as I stated earlier, in the light of factual proof, I am fully willing to change my perception of the question. I was mistaken. My gut instinct was wrong.

That having been said, I will say that I don't agree with the scriptwriter's decision story-wise. But that's the realm of personal taste.

-Gordon who salutes you :salute:

[peter noble]

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9575/script1dp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[spcglider]

Okay, okay! I give in! You win!! ;)

But wouldn't it be a REALLY interesting twist if the devil under the wreckage was wearing a COLONIAL uniform??? LOL!!

But seriously, guys, I acquiesce (sp?). You have truly and well proven the factual story point.

-Gordon

[Eric Paddon]

Gordon, my VS story #7 "The Derelict" (not yet posted here but available elsewhere on the net) actually does explore this idea somewhat by having Apollo and Sheba encounter a giant version of the wrecked ship drifting in space which they discover is in fact where Iblis's minions roam and that they are in fact comprised of all the races and beings that he has enslaved at numerous points and that the ship is comrpised of pieces of all the other ships these people came from. So at various points, they encounter demons who were once (1) crew of a lost battlestar from 500 yahrens ago (2) living Cylons (3) Delphians (4) Borellians (5) a wanderer from the 13th Tribe and (6) even one Pegasus crewman. I see the demonic form representing what these people enslaved have been turned into once they turn over their souls to Iblis.

[Damocles]

...The problem being how said evidence(or lack, thereof) is tested, and how those results are interpreted by observers. Once outside the boundry of "hard" sciences like algebra/trig/calc/chemistry/etc, you move into the realms of speculation, which by definition are open to interpretation in the absence of verifiable evidence.

True enough, but with the presentation of first source testimony and the written record, history can be quite ^hard^.

In the case of this specific issue, i.e. the "Red Planet Wreckage" being the remains of the Pegasus, I think that the circumstantial and documentary evidence presented by EP and MikeDX far outweigh SPCGlider's "gut instinct".

So demonstrated.

All the same, I still stand on my conclusion that GL had/has serious problems of "staying power" vis concept and storyline, based on the proposed second season storyline.

Here you are in ^soft^ evidence territory. We have only the G80 fiasco, and bits and pieces of documentation, to give us a read into GL's mind concerning the future he planned for CBSG. It might be sufficient for most. But I want that last nail; before I hammer the lid shut on GL's coffin.

Additionally, I do find the ref's to SG-Atlantis drawing directly on CBSG very interesting, the more so in light of that show's close ties to GINO 2.0.

This is pure speculation.


I always regarded ST:Voyager as a direct rip-off of CBSG - right down to the ship: rip off the 'Gators engine aft, and flip the old girl on her back -- compare to Voyager...then compare the overall plotline. :rolleyes:

?????????????????????

Maybe. Although I always thought that;

http://www.wedgeworld.com/stalkers/celebrities/gilligan.jpg

inspired Berman.

I sure know that;

http://www.isnnews.net/babylon5/gallery/b5/station4.jpg

was riffed by Berman for this;

http://www.mirkoklotz.de/startrek/images/ds9_station.jpg

Always steal from the best.

As always;

[WarMachine]

Here you are in ^soft^ evidence territory. We have only the G80 fiasco, and bits and pieces of documentation, to give us a read into GL's mind concerning the future he planned for CBSG. It might be sufficient for most. But I want that last nail; before I hammer the lid shut on GL's coffin.

That final nail will never come, short of a definitive statement on the Season 2 outline; that may have already been done, but I'd need the ref again.

This is pure speculation.

Vis SG: Atlantis and All=BSG? It's there - I don't refer to storyline crossovers, but to backstage crossovers: sets, props, extras, uniforms, etc. There is apparently a good deal of bleed-over.

????????????????????

You never heard that? Funny: When ST:Voy first aired, that was my first thought. I would never be able to find it, I'm sure, but ISTR a review of ST:Voy in TVGuide that drew those exact comparisons to CBSG. I'll try to search the TVG site, if I get the chance.

Maybe. Although I always thought that;

<snip>

Always steal from the best.

As always;

<<Tongue firmly in cheek>>: Don't be insulting The Gilligan like that. ;) If it was "insiration", he must have been on serious chemicals to get it that wrong.

And B5? Come on! There's no comparison! One has depth of character, continuity, an engaging story-arc.....The other -- doesn't.

...And don't get me started on the "Transplicator"! :mad:

[Damocles]

That final nail will never come, short of a definitive statement on the Season 2 outline; that may have already been done, but I'd need the ref again.

I am an optimist. We'll find the nail.

Vis SG: Atlantis and All=BSG? It's there - I don't refer to storyline crossovers, but to backstage crossovers: sets, props, extras, uniforms, etc. There is apparently a good deal of bleed-over.

Since Skiffy/Universal/NBC(TM) uses a common studio complex and properties department in Vancouver, BC. for their Friday Night Lineup; even though the three programs have different production companies it follows. For crying out loud, if you look closely; the same extras(Marines/SG teams) show up on all three programs, sometimes on the same night, using the same guns! The production companies often share cameras, settings, FX subcontractors, and production personnel.


You never heard that? Funny: When ST:Voy first aired, that was my first thought. I would never be able to find it, I'm sure, but ISTR a review of ST:Voy in TVGuide that drew those exact comparisons to CBSG. I'll try to search the TVG site, if I get the chance.

That would explain a lot, if the Phlying Phallus(TM) from Star Wreck; Voyeur(TM) was inspired by the Current Version(TM), but I still fail to see how the Alternative Descripition(Copyright) Neon Toilet Seat(TM) was riffed from the Alligator(Copyright).

<<Tongue firmly in cheek>>: Don't be insulting The Gilligan like that. ;)
If it was "inspiration", he must have been on serious chemicals to get it that wrong.

That explains the writing!

And B5? Come on! There's no comparison! One has depth of character, continuity, an engaging story-arc.....The other -- doesn't.

True. But it did have Captain Psycho.


...And don't get me started on the "Transplicator"! :mad:

Trekknobabble. :/:

As always; :salute:

[spcglider]

Okay, now here's one that I CAN win... or at least speak with definity upon.

If yo're going to invoke Gilligan's Island as a reference, then you MUST invoke the source from which it springs... the Commedia plays. Look... the characters are all there. Columbine, Harlequin, Pantalone, the Doctor, the Captain... etc.

Pretty transparent if you ask me. But brilliant sit-com material.

In fact, you can trace most half-hour sitcom character templates back to the Commedia theatre.

Try it sometime with your favorite sit-com! Its a game!

In fact, one could even do so with Classic Galactica to a certain extent. Looks to me like all the elements are there.

-Gordon

[Damocles]

Okay, now here's one that I CAN win... or at least speak with definity upon.

If yo're going to invoke Gilligan's Island as a reference, then you MUST invoke the source from which it springs... the Commedia plays. Look... the characters are all there. Columbine, Harlequin, Pantalone, the Doctor, the Captain... etc.

Pretty transparent if you ask me. But brilliant sit-com material.

In fact, you can trace most half-hour sitcom character templates back to the Commedia theatre.

Try it sometime with your favorite sit-com! Its a game!

In fact, one could even do so with Classic Galactica to a certain extent. Looks to me like all the elements are there.

-Gordon

Provided as background for the ignorant(like me).

http://www.theatrehistory.com/italian/commedia_dell_arte_001.html (http://)

Okay, now that, that sword has been drawn, Gordon?

How do you fit Commander Cain, Sheba, and the heroes of the Alligator, into that tradition?(And yes I know that there are examples, like the nimrods of the Quorum, or Siress Billoby.)

Let the discussion begin; as to the fate of the Pegasus in light of the commedia del arte.

As always; :salute: