Cylon 'lifesigns' [Archive]

Damocles

February 17th, 2006, 12:08 PM

Sorry, CD. I didn't mean to come across as putting a damper on the discussion.

My thought was that the life signs were actually energy readings that the scanner was able to ascertain from the long range scan. The energy readings would likely fit into a pattern and from that it could be determined just who and/or what the 'thing' was..human, Cylon,other.....

Now, whether those energy readings mean that the Cylons were life forms...hmmm......

I'll have to ponder that.

;)

1. I hate Star Trek sensor type life reading detection type crap fantasy You don't read electro/chemical or mechanical life processes from several LYs away. The Heisenberg Principle prevents you from building the EM detectors of sufficiently fine discrimination to do this at ANY RANGE except close; as in a matter of meters. You will smell the Cylon's oil stink further away than you can measure his computer/brain activity.
2. How would you actually look for the evidence of life(biological or mechanical) at multi-LY range?
a. radio.
b. passive spectroscopic evidence.
c. presence of gross amounts of biological spoor in EM radiation. (Chlorophyll in the spectrum is the classic example for biologicals. You would look for WD-40; if you were hunting Cylons.)
d. modulated gravity waves
e. concentrated modulated neutrino emissions.
f. wormhole inflation. This last one screams "Intelligence!"
3. The above works even better if you have FTL wormhole effect radio.

As always; :salute:

BST

February 17th, 2006, 01:13 PM

Centurion Draco

February 17th, 2006, 01:14 PM

1. I hate Star Trek sensor type life reading detection type crap fantasy You don't read electro/chemical or mechanical life processes from several LYs away. The Heisenberg Principle prevents you from building the EM detectors of sufficiently fine discrimination to do this at ANY RANGE except close; as in a matter of meters. You will smell the Cylon's oil stink further away than you can measure his computer/brain activity.

I don't see it as a problem of the sensors themselves being possible Damo'.

And without some reference for what 'aspect' of 'life' is being detected, even Prof Heisenberg couldn't completely disprove the possiblility (and even if it were so, I'd have to just pull out a federation Mk7, ver 3.0 Heisenberg Compensator to get around him anyway) ;)

2. How would you actually look for the evidence of life(biological or mechanical) at multi-LY range?
a. radio.
b. passive spectroscopic evidence.
c. presence of gross amounts of biological spoor in EM radiation. (Chlorophyll in the spectrum is the classic example for biologicals. You would look for WD-40; if you were hunting Cylons.)
d. modulated gravity waves
e. concentrated modulated neutrino emissions.
f. wormhole inflation. This last one screams "Intelligence!"
3. The above works even better if you have FTL wormhole effect radio.

As always; :salute:

Hmm, from the script quote, it does seem to be more detection of 'life forms' themselves, rather than evidence of their actions, which by our understanding of the technologies possibly involved would seem to be illogical, especially if you're looking for a advanced race, as you rightly point out.
Clearly at our level of understanding, looking for evidence of energy emmissions or radio waves etc, etc would be a damn site easier than detecting the em field of even lots of 'beings'.
So we've just got to swallow that the Colonials have something that can detect 'life' at HUUUUGGGGE distances, as easily or even more easily than they could detect other kinds of energy, or refined metals, or anything else indicative of advanced life.
Or that they have an understanding of what constitutes 'life' and the special properites that distinguish/elevate the sum of our parts beyond that of a complicated but 'non-living' mechanical device or anything else, which has allowed them to develop a device or technology that can connect with the peculiarities of that 'energy' or essence of life on a level that is virtually unaffected by distance.
So assuming they do indeed have some kind of: Tylium powered, Heisenberg compensated, Quantum-entangled 'soul' detector? ;)

Are Cylons alive?

Centurion Draco

February 17th, 2006, 05:19 PM

Damo & BST

Hey guys :D

So, here's the thing.
If Cylons are 'alive', in a way that we'd understand, sentient although artificial, how do you think that has come about?
By design by Iblis and their Cylon makers?
By accident, which is why it all went so badly wrong for their creators?
slowly over time, once they'd started improving themselves?
Is their 'life' merely an illusion? An echo of the 'life' their brains were designed to emulate?
Do you think they were designed with brains that copied the neural pathways of their creators, and was that act of copying (if done correctly) ultimately certain to give them consciousness and 'life'?
Or do you think that their brains are super-computers, and any 'thinking' machine be it organic of artificial has the possibility of reaching a level of consciousness and self awareness if it's complicated enough?

G.A.Larson was an unusually radical thinking christian to explore the possibilities of artificially created 'life'!

Damo.
I want to know at what point you think that machine 'life' could be a possibility, if it's possible for the reflection of intelligence to actually be conscious in it's own right (or I want proof that it couldn't), and I want quantum theory to back it up.
And the rules are: Laymans terms, links can only be reference, and you're not allowed my Heisenberg compensator or any similar made-up stuff ;)

Lara

February 17th, 2006, 06:48 PM

Interesting point to ponder..

Since an organic chemical reaction is the same either in a body or in a machine: if they mimic the chemistry of life in any way, they may be detectable by the same technology.

What is a Cylon's energy source? The Imperious leader could be expected to eat as 'he' is clearly biological. The Centurions probably have a battery or reactor? but what about Lucifer and teh IL series units like him?

There is a implied mixing of machine and biologics...hence my assumption that centurions have organic bits.
The differences between classes of Cylons could be just programming, but since the leader is biological I've always imagined the much valued Cylon 'brain' as having an organic component. The difference is in how much of it you get.. a bit like our brain has basic, intermediary and higher functions in different areas, and worms have neural clusters fro basic functions and we have brains for higher thought, but within that brain is an areas that does the basic functions, just like the worms'..
Unless we assume there is no organic component in the Centurions, or their commanders, there is a primative (easily cloned) life form that is the living part of the Cylon. They are alive, and sentient, but probably not sapient.

Perhaps this is the one last transition they are unable, or unwilling to make. Centurions aren't very sophisticated in their thoughts....Cylon computer technology isn't up to anything more. Creativity is somehow a function of biological brains. They can't solve their problem with a artificial one.

It would sure explain why they hate the humans, and why there isn't an infinite number of cylon centurions and machines to just make a final strike on humanity. Also why they are fascinated with Baltar and let Lucifer study him..

Cheers,
Lara

Damocles

February 18th, 2006, 11:57 AM

This is going to get messy as I have three very intelligent people approaching this problem from three very different vectors.

So the esteemed Lara first;

Interesting point to ponder.

Since an organic chemical reaction is the same either in a body or in a machine: if they mimic the chemistry of life in any way, they may be detectable by the same technology.

Not necessarily true. There is a rough equivalent processor gate function in that a semi-conductor has a zero/one potentia, and we have a similar axion gate passd/no pass chemical electrolyte function where neurons connect. But biologics store memory as permanent protein chains, that we read chemically. Not so machines(At least Human built ones). There, the memory is stored as charge potentials in a magnetic storage device, or is rigidly architectured as circuitry. There is an unstable component to the magnetic storage, and a rigidity in mechanicals preset circuitry at the same time, that makes a mechanical intelligence; both more rigid and more vulnerable to system erasure, than you would have in a biologic. We will eventually recover our memory after being hit in the head, because we are constantly changing the shape of our brain's interior memory-literally-through our biochemistry. Put a computer in the presence of a magnetic field, or surge it with an ampered voltage too powerful for it to handle, or heat it, or simply hit it at loadings far less than even a frail Human would laugh off? Kiss your mechanical CPU, sayonara.

What is a Cylon's energy source? The Imperious leader could be expected to eat as 'he' is clearly biological. The Centurions probably have a battery or reactor? but what about Lucifer and teh IL series units like him?

My guess is electricity.

There is a implied mixing of machine and biologics...hence my assumption that centurions have organic bits.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wk29003/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/cylon-leader.jpg

Imperious Leader? Hard to say. I think not.

But Lucifer was definitely mechanical.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wk29003/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/cylon-lucifer.jpg

The differences between classes of Cylons could be just programming, but since the leader is biological I've always imagined the much valued Cylon 'brain' as having an organic component. The difference is in how much of it you get.. a bit like our brain has basic, intermediary and higher functions in different areas, and worms have neural clusters fro basic functions and we have brains for higher thought, but within that brain is an areas that does the basic functions, just like the worms'..

See my above comments for the differences in mechanical and bilogical read memory processes.

I agree with you that, unlike the biologic's holographic mind, your Cylon brain architecture will be the mechanical equivalent of the flatworm-that is distributed processing. Incidentally you will need these links to understand what I mean by holographic thinking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holonomic_brain_theory

Unless we assume there is no organic component in the Centurions, or their commanders, there is a primitive (easily cloned) life form that is the living part of the Cylon. They are alive, and sentient, but probably not sapient.

I do not agree that there needs to be a biological component to their ^intelligence^; as to me, it seems that they act like machines should respond to stimuli, when confronted with new data. As Larsen and company wrote them, the Cylons did not startle, and then adapt. They sort of just blundered forward and died; until new programming that was written by the accidental survivors that coped to the new threat by ramdom chance, kicked in.

Perhaps this is the one last transition they are unable, or unwilling to make. Centurions aren't very sophisticated in their thoughts....Cylon computer technology isn't up to anything more. Creativity is somehow a function of biological brains. They can't solve their problem with a artificial one.

Agreed about the lack of sophistication. Computers, until the architecture embraces a chaotic function(imagination) cannot be purposeful ^what if?^ accidental thinkers. Cylons are mechanized Vorlons.

It would sure explain why they hate the humans, and why there isn't an infinite number of cylon centurions and machines to just make a final strike on humanity. Also why they are fascinated with Baltar and let Lucifer study him..

Lara

Cylons do not hate. They simply eliminate danger to them according to machine logic. We tend to reflexively mirror our own attributes upon what should be a totally alien way of thinking to us. The nearest biologic equivalent that I can produce for you to describe how Cylons should think as we see them, is a very smart ant.

As always;

Damocles

February 18th, 2006, 12:23 PM

Yes, Damocles, we are aware of what IS possible with regards to current laws of physics, gravity, etc.

The question was asked, I believe, given the parameters that were presented on the show. Whether those parameters would pass scrutiny based on current scientific laws and properties wasn't part of the question.

;)

Speculation to have validity must have some logic to frame it.

Battlestar Galactica has Human Beings using (barely) plausible rockets to fight (perfectly plausible) intelligent machines; as they, the Humans, flee to find a new homeland.

I ask you in the light of that premise;

Just why should I ignore the limits of the best science of our day when I discuss this question of what constitutes a Cylon; and how would we detect him?

If you asked me to analyze Dragonslayer using the same question, would you not want me to plausibly explain how to detect a ^flying intelligent flamethrower^ and how it came about to be?

HMMMM?

Its a point of view. Others have equally valid points of view, if they can justify the basis of their reasoning.

Its just that Berman trek crap science isn't a valid justification ^for actual subspace life detecting sensors^. In Roddenberry's ST/TOS you will notice that every time the Enterprise searches for life they look for an energy production signature, do an orbital survey for gross biologic activity, or look for artifacts. The crew constantly complains that they have lost the landing party tracking signal; or they can't discriminate one bunch of biologics from another at CLOSE RANGE. The notable exception to this general rule was The Enterprise Incident when Scotty complains that he has trouble picking out Mister Spock from all the Romulans for a beamout and even here we have TOS evidence( Let This Be Your Last Battlefield)that the Feds use a subcutaneous tracking implanrt to transmit a radio signal in their hides to a transporter crew trying to beam them out of a hostile situation.

As always;

Damocles

February 18th, 2006, 01:02 PM

Omega: 'Commander, the long range scanner detect possible life forms, quadrent alpha six', request probe concentration'.
Adama: 'Concentration aproved'.
Apollo: 'Cylons?'
Adama: 'Impossible to tell, prepare recon viper one'.
Apollo: 'Yes sir'.
Omega: 'Concentrated probe indicates definate life signs'.

That dialog gives us no information as to what spoor the detectors gauge.

And now comes the hard part.........

I don't see it as a problem of the sensors themselves being possible Damo'.

And without some reference for what 'aspect' of 'life' is being detected, even Prof Heisenberg couldn't completely disprove the possiblility (and even if it were so, I'd have to just pull out a federation Mk7, ver 3.0 Heisenberg Compensator to get around him anyway)

You cannot measure more than one variable at a time without introducing observer bias. And all measurements are local. Those two universal laws are why you can never build a ranged discriminator that can measure a planck interval(1/4 the radius of a proton) event.

Most living, I'm afraid, is a specific quark bundle hadron/lepton affair, so you have to be local to see it, if it is a thinking man or machine, smarter than a flatworm(to borrow the esteemed Lara's suggestion.) If it is dumber than a flatworm you have to measure its external product, locally.

Hmm, from the script quote, it does seem to be more detection of 'life forms' themselves, rather than evidence of their actions, which by our understanding of the technologies possibly involved would seem to be illogical, especially if you're looking for a advanced race, as you rightly point out.

I argue that the spoor is not specified.

Clearly at our level of understanding, looking for evidence of energy emmissions or radio waves etc, etc would be a damn site easier than detecting the em field of even lots of 'beings'.

True.

So we've just got to swallow that the Colonials have something that can detect 'life' at HUUUUGGGGE distances, as easily or even more easily than they could detect other kinds of energy, or refined metals, or anything else indicative of advanced life.

Once again the type of life spoor that they detect is not specified, so why should we assume that they aren't using spectroscopy?

Or that they have an understanding of what constitutes 'life' and the special properites that distinguish/elevate the sum of our parts beyond that of a complicated but 'non-living' mechanical device or anything else, which has allowed them to develop a device or technology that can connect with the peculiarities of that 'energy' or essence of life on a level that is virtually unaffected by distance.

Radio? "Lucy! I'm home!"

So assuming they do indeed have some kind of: Tylium powered, Heisenberg compensated, Quantum-entangled 'soul' detector?

Supposition is not supported by the evidence, CD. See above.

Are Cylons alive?

No. They are machines. Intelligent machines, but just machines.

As always:

Damocles

February 18th, 2006, 01:27 PM

Damo & BST

Hey guys

So, here's the thing.
If Cylons are 'alive', in a way that we'd understand, sentient although artificial, how do you think that has come about?

Cylons do not fit the classical definition of abiotic life. They are rather stupid artilects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_de_Garis

By design by Iblis and their Cylon makers?
Yes.

By accident, which is why it all went so badly wrong for their creators?
Yes

slowly over time, once they'd started improving themselves?
Yes.

Is their 'life' merely an illusion? An echo of the 'life' their brains were designed to emulate?
Yes.

Do you think they were designed with brains that copied the neural pathways of their creators, and was that act of copying (if done correctly) ultimately certain to give them consciousness and 'life'?
Yes, the illusion of life.

Or do you think that their brains are super-computers, and any 'thinking' machine be it organic or artificial has the possibility of reaching a level of consciousness and self awareness if it's complicated enough?
Yes to supercomputers. No to physical complexibility. Whales have more complex brains than Humans, as do elephants. It is how the algorithm(the holography of how we use memory and inputs) to form new ^thoughts^ that defines our human sapience, while machines use a feedback looped number crunch ramdomizer to mimic this ^Human^ process.

G.A.Larson was an unusually radical thinking christian to explore the possibilities of artificially created 'life'!

Leonardo de Vinci beat him to it.

Damo.
I want to know at what point you think that machine 'life' could be a possibility, if it's possible for the reflection of intelligence to actually be conscious in it's own right (or I want proof that it couldn't), and I want quantum theory to back it up.[internal edit; I supplied the articles on the holographic principles of the universe and the mind; and I supplied the article on the artilect in this and my two previous posts so that you would have the information you need to understand the physics, chemistry, and the engineering logic behind my answers. D.]And the rules are: Laymans terms, links can only be reference, and you're not allowed my Heisenberg compensator or any similar made-up stuff
And to answer as to the stipulated conditions......
I already have one example in front of me(internet) and as to the proof of a working artificial intelligence?

We launched one in 1989. Its called;

http://galileo.jpl.nasa.gov/

GALILEO.

It was about as smart as a termite.

As always;

Lara

February 19th, 2006, 04:42 AM

This is going to get messy as I have three very intelligent people approaching this problem from three very different vectors.

Thanks for the compliment of such an in depth reply

I don't disagree that you have a plausible explaination for mechanical entities mimicing higher thought processes, but I don't think that level of mechanical sophistication is consistently evident in the Cylons we see.

The IL series display some subversive thinking. Lucifer is sniping at Baltar on more than one occassion and there is several instances of naked ambitiion. There is emotion here, and its either real, or if its artificial, then its programming without good purpose...logic would have decreed the theatrical ending of SAGA..Baltar' execution. Subsequent to this, the Cylons should have either gone all out to exterminate the Humans as the current IL wanted, OR let them go becos they posed no threat anymore. Instead, Baltar lives, makes stuff ups, deals and even tells Adama that the 'new' IL has had a change of policy. Perhaps this is stonkingly sophisticated mimicked life doing complex emotive thought.

Also, it could be argued, that if the mimicked life is so close to emotive, biological thought, what is the adaptive value of moving to the mechanical?

The Cylon Centurions do present as smart ants, but are also victims of dialogue that is inconsistant, with them often making comments that are more than basic, logical, responses. This was written for humour, but not consistency.. In all other ways they appear and act simplistically mechanical

Lucifer and the other IL's look mechanical, but have the wise ass/emotion problem in spades

The Leader is biological, but may not be the designer of the mechanical systems, only the user.
HOWEVER, he speaks with Count Iblis voice...how does that fit? So, he, too may be artificial, but may be a biological entity that is enhanced with the artificial brain, and not a mechanical entity with an artificial brain like clever, ambitious Lucifer or the dumbass centurions.

So, there doesn't NEED to be a biologic function to their intelligence, I just feel it is unlikely that the system we saw was consistanct with the sort of highly sophisticated mechanics you are proposing..
Altho when Dr Wilker takes one apart, he can't make it function again, yet it doesn't look anything more than a collection of Tandy cast offs!!

Urghhh!!

Of course, in a continuation we could make it all a bit more consistent... :D :D

Cheers,
Lara

Damocles

February 19th, 2006, 11:31 AM

Thanks for the compliment of such an in depth reply

I don't disagree that you have a plausible explaination for mechanical entities mimicing higher thought processes, but I don't think that level of mechanical sophistication is consistently evident in the Cylons we see.

The IL series display some subversive thinking. Lucifer is sniping at Baltar on more than one occassion and there is several instances of naked ambitiion. There is emotion here, and its either real, or if its artificial, then its programming without good purpose...logic would have decreed the theatrical ending of SAGA..Baltar' execution. Subsequent to this, the Cylons should have either gone all out to exterminate the Humans as the current IL wanted, OR let them go becos they posed no threat anymore. Instead, Baltar lives, makes stuff ups, deals and even tells Adama that the 'new' IL has had a change of policy. Perhaps this is stonkingly sophisticated mimicked life doing complex emotive thought.

Also, it could be argued, that if the mimicked life is so close to emotive, biological thought, what is the adaptive value of moving to the mechanical?

The Cylon Centurions do present as smart ants, but are also victims of dialogue that is inconsistant, with them often making comments that are more than basic, logical, responses. This was written for humour, but not consistency.. In all other ways they appear and act simplistically mechanical

Lucifer and the other IL's look mechanical, but have the wise ass/emotion problem in spades

The Leader is biological, but may not be the designer of the mechanical systems, only the user.
HOWEVER, he speaks with Count Iblis voice...how does that fit? So, he, too may be artificial, but may be a biological entity that is enhanced with the artificial brain, and not a mechanical entity with an artificial brain like clever, ambitious Lucifer or the dumbass centurions.

So, there doesn't NEED to be a biologic function to their intelligence, I just feel it is unlikely that the system we saw was consistanct with the sort of highly sophisticated mechanics you are proposing..
Altho when Dr Wilker takes one apart, he can't make it function again, yet it doesn't look anything more than a collection of Tandy cast offs!!

Urghhh!!

Of course, in a continuation we could make it all a bit more consistent... :D :D

Cheers,
Lara

The best presentation of negation of a hypothesis is an actual example.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wcowart/index.shtml

http://www.geocities.com/california_mermaid/index-2.html

The sarcasm that you can generate from these simple-minded ramdomizers is sufficient to account for Lucifer.

As for the Cylon intelligence he exhibits?

A master feedback programming algorithmn, with such a ramdomizer, as you see evidenced above in the talkbots, could easily lead to such sarcastic, rebellious, and comic Cylons as Lucifer.

As always; :salute:

Charybdis

February 20th, 2006, 08:50 AM

Centurion Draco

February 20th, 2006, 01:30 PM

Wait a minute, I thought that the Imperious Leader was just given a body that looks like an organic being (as a sort of tribute to the past) but is still an IL-type Cylon? He is a machine and that's why he has Iblis' voice as does every Imperious Leader...

Yes, as per the books.
When a Cylon of IL or Command rank is elevated to 'Leader' their armour is replaced with the 'Imperious Leader' armor that is fashioned to resemble the original Cylon creators.

They also have their brains expanded with a third brain hemisphere being added which basically seems to give them the kind of 'all seeing, all knowing' attributes almost like the Borg Queen.

Presumably the voice is the traditional 'nod' to the influence of Iblis in their creation.

Lara

February 20th, 2006, 01:34 PM

A master feedback programming algorithmn, with such a ramdomizer, as you see evidenced above in the talkbots, could easily lead to such sarcastic, rebellious, and comic Cylons as Lucifer.

As always; :salute:

Pretty good, indeed!!

but are Cylons in this form smart enough to make the improvements on themselves, or do they still need a creator continually providing an improvement loop?

Cheers,
Lara

Centurion Draco

February 20th, 2006, 02:48 PM

Damo ;)

If Cylon 'life' is just a clever algorithm designed to make them self motivating, couldn't the same be said of us organic machines?

Even the negative emotions displayed by Lucifer and Spectre can serve them as individuals.
If those emotional responses are simply deliberate programming inclusions, then as their brains are based on a mixture of copies of that of Iblis' and their reptilian creators, couldn't those 'emotions' simply be the inevitable outcome of creating an artificial 'mind' as complex as our own organic original?
If they are simple programming, then aren't the Cylons labouring under a misconception in believing that they are 'alive'?
And aren't our own 'emotional responses' simply the result of millions of years of natural selection (as in all living creatures to one level or another) and in that case, are they any more 'proof' of 'life' in us? Or are our own pretensions of life simply arrogant misinterpretations of tricks played on us by millions of years of 'survival of the fitest'?

You seem sure that a 'machine' cannot be 'alive'?
Would the same be true if (using some non-existant scientific technique) we could atrificially 'reproduce' a simple organic form of 'life' perfectly?
If using some theoretical 'replicator' I could create a perfect Damocles mk2, then if at the moment of 'creation' I applied a shock to start it's heart, and presuming that every other aspect of it's structure was perfectly copied right down to the atomic level, could it be 'alive'?

Do you think that a machine could never be a life-form?

Come on Damo, stray from the scientific facts and give me some musings on the essense of our existence.

BST

February 20th, 2006, 03:43 PM

Speculation to have validity must have some logic to frame it.

Battlestar Galactica has Human Beings using (barely) plausible rockets to fight (perfectly plausible) intelligent machines; as they, the Humans, flee to find a new homeland.

I ask you in the light of that premise;

Just why should I ignore the limits of the best science of our day when I discuss this question of what constitutes a Cylon; and how would we detect him?

If you asked me to analyze Dragonslayer using the same question, would you not want me to plausibly explain how to detect a ^flying intelligent flamethrower^ and how it came about to be?

HMMMM?

Its a point of view. Others have equally valid points of view, if they can justify the basis of their reasoning.

Its just that Berman trek crap science isn't a valid justification ^for actual subspace life detecting sensors^. In Roddenberry's ST/TOS you will notice that every time the Enterprise searches for life they look for an energy production signature, do an orbital survey for gross biologic activity, or look for artifacts. The crew constantly complains that they have lost the landing party tracking signal; or they can't discriminate one bunch of biologics from another at CLOSE RANGE. The notable exception to this general rule was The Enterprise Incident when Scotty complains that he has trouble picking out Mister Spock from all the Romulans for a beamout and even here we have TOS evidence( Let This Be Your Last Battlefield)that the Feds use a subcutaneous tracking implanrt to transmit a radio signal in their hides to a transporter crew trying to beam them out of a hostile situation.

As always;

My simple response is that Earth-based humanity is not the universal template for other beings in the galaxy. Who is to say that others may have advanced reached a knowledge of science much in advance to ours? Remember the "planet is flat" vs. the "planet is round" debate. For a long while, the former was the accepted science truth, of THAT day; until, of course, that truth was debunked by the ocean explorers who proved that, in fact, the planet is round.

All that I'm saying is that we don't have all of the answers and we should acknowledge that. Merely because something hasn't been done before, does not make that something impossible.

;)

Damocles

February 20th, 2006, 05:00 PM

Pretty good, indeed!!

but are Cylons in this form smart enough to make the improvements on themselves, or do they still need a creator continually providing an improvement loop?

Cheers,
Lara

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organization

One current example as I wrote earlier is the Internet. The talkbots are another. As you input more information into them; the more complex their random responses become to you, and the more tailored to you those responses are, when you speak to them.

As always; :salute:

Damocles

February 20th, 2006, 05:06 PM

Damocles

February 20th, 2006, 05:32 PM

My simple response is that Earth-based humanity is not the universal template for other beings in the galaxy. Who is to say that others may have advanced reached a knowledge of science much in advance to ours? Remember the "planet is flat" vs. the "planet is round" debate. For a long while, the former was the accepted science truth, of THAT day; until, of course, that truth was debunked by the ocean explorers who proved that, in fact, the planet is round.

All that I'm saying is that we don't have all of the answers and we should acknowledge that. Merely because something hasn't been done before, does not make that something impossible.

;)

Misinterpretation of an event does not negate the event.

Gravitational influence causes mass to clump together. Newton got it wrong, Einstein may have it wrong and the superstring guys probably have it wrong, nevertheless gravitational influence is.

The round earth versus flat argument was discreditted the first time a Polynesian sailor used the stars by which to steer. The Egyptians who laid out the geometry of the pyramids(landlubbers that they were) knew that they were on a curved surface that fell away from them in all directions.

The evidence of the universe is overwhelming. There is no hidden vat of mystical knowledge that awaits somebody to ladle it out. What there is, is a universe that we haven't opened our common everyday eyes to see and describe. Frankly the biggest problem we have with phenomena, the describing of it, is that our mathematics is so complex and awkward, that we find it difficult to use as a tool to visualize what we see. Yet at the same time, it is the ONLY tool that is an objective quantifier that we can use to model, all other tools having failed us at the micro and macro scales of the edge effects we attempt to describe.

It is mathematics(specifically algebra and calculus) we ultimately hope to use to remove what is called the ANTHROPIC ERROR in our observation, that is looking at everything with a human observer POV bias.

If you try to tell me that a slug worm on a planet six million years ago trying to solve the volume of a sphere didn't come up with this?

volume=4/3¶r3

Sorry, you are incorrect. He may use different symbols, but the formulation is a constant description in ideal space. He would so know it, and I would recognize it, no matter what his symbology, when I saw it, INSTANTLY.

That is what I mean by best science.

As always; :salute:

BST

February 20th, 2006, 05:48 PM

Damocles,

I give up. All that I meant is that we do NOT know ALL that there is to know. That's it.

Damocles

February 20th, 2006, 08:09 PM

Damocles,

I give up. All that I meant is that we do NOT know ALL that there is to know. That's it.

I would agree. In fact I might surprise you, and say we don't know what we thinkk we know now. Remember I suggested that we have multiple explanations for gravitational influence and that most of them are most certainly wrong?

But it probably is a finite universe we see, and if so, it is finitely permutable. Nothing may live long enough to know everything in it, but that possibility to know everything in a finite universe mathematically exists. I, personally find that stertling possibility most disturbing.

It means, if true, that there can be no such thing as a soul.

As always; :salute:

Centurion Draco

February 21st, 2006, 04:21 AM

It means, if true, that there can be no such thing as a soul.

As always; :salute:

Which would mean that our organic form of 'life' is no more valid than a theoretical artificial form might be.

Damocles

February 21st, 2006, 05:31 AM

Which would mean that our organic form of 'life' is no more valid than a theoretical artificial form might be.

You have to confront that moral possibility, but not that biological equivalence.

Machines do not live.

As always.

Centurion Draco

February 21st, 2006, 06:07 AM

You have to confront that moral possibility, but not that biological equivalence.

Machines do not live.

As always.

Which takes us back to the discussion of the fundamentals of our existence.

But 'Machines do not live' is not the same as 'non-organic artificially created life-forms cannot live'.

Damocles

February 21st, 2006, 07:26 AM

Which takes us back to the discussion of the fundamentals of our existence.

But 'Machines do not live' is not the same as 'non-organic artificially created life-forms cannot live'.

An artilect is a machine, even if it is nothing but free standing radio waves;

You cannot say it is alive unless it conforms to a chemically powered self replicating, growing self organizing discrete system.

When Cylons have kids, then we talk.

As always;

Centurion Draco

February 21st, 2006, 10:02 AM

An artilect is a machine, even if it is nothing but free standing radio waves;

You cannot say it is alive unless it conforms to a chemically powered self replicating, growing self organizing discrete system.

When Cylons have kids, then we talk.

As always;

Ah, but we know Cylons are evolving and improving through succesive generations. What does power them? Are their servo's and circuits powered by electrical impulses? How does Red-Eye maintain power after so long without any ability to recharge?
They clearly 'reproduce' and create new Cylons.
They seem to tick all of the important 'boxes' for sentient 'life'

Damocles

February 21st, 2006, 12:57 PM

Ah, but we know Cylons are evolving and improving through succesive generations. What does power them? Are their servo's and circuits powered by electrical impulses? How does Red-Eye maintain power after so long without any ability to recharge?
They clearly 'reproduce' and create new Cylons.
They seem to tick all of the important 'boxes' for sentient 'life'

They don't abiotically begin, nor do they permutate from generation to generation. They are designed, not mutated. They manufacture. They do not nurture. They input. They do not educate, teach, or learn.

As always;

Centurion Draco

February 21st, 2006, 02:58 PM

They don't abiotically begin, nor do they permutate from generation to generation. They are designed, not mutated. They manufacture. They dio not nurture. They input. They do not educate, teach, or learn.

As always;

Well, ignoring processes that are specific to organics by their very nature....

Because they are able to direct their own evolution, it doesn't invalidate it.
Imperious Leader describes Gamoray as (correct me if I'm wrong, something like) 'An important centre of Cylon culture and Learning'.
In a protracted war with the Colonies that has clearly reached stalemate, they learn to employ completely different tactics, to infiltrate and divide, to use trickery, subterfuge and ultimately to triumph!
Lucifer says to a Centurion (on the subject of Baltar) 'He's wonderfully devious, we can learn much from him'.
Red-Eye 'senses' that Apollo wants to destroy him.
Successive generations incorperate improvements learned/designed by those that preceeded them.
They are self-aware, motivated, individuals. They have taken control of their own destiny and don't even 'interact' with machines in any way that involves direct integration. They clearly don't see themselves as machines, but instead as a sentient race.
We don't know the 'structure' of their brains, why is it so hard to accept the possibility of an artificially constructed 'being' becoming so advanced that it can be regarded as 'sentient life' by any measure of or understanding of it?

For me, the whole 'point' of the Cylons, and the thing that makes them a credible 'adversary' for humanity if the fact that they are a race of artificial sentient beings.

Damocles

February 21st, 2006, 03:25 PM

Well, ignoring processes that are specific to organics by their very nature....

Because they are able to direct their own evolution, it doesn't invalidate it.
Imperious Leader describes Gamoray as (correct me if I'm wrong, something like) 'An important centre of Cylon culture and Learning'.
In a protracted war with the Colonies that has clearly reached stalemate, they learn to employ completely different tactics, to infiltrate and divide, to use trickery, subterfuge and ultimately to triumph!
Lucifer says to a Centurion (on the subject of Baltar) 'He's wonderfully devious, we can learn much from him'.
Red-Eye 'senses' that Apollo wants to destroy him.
Successive generations incorperate improvements learned/designed by those that preceeded them.
They are self-aware, motivated, individuals. They have taken control of their own destiny and don't even 'interact' with machines in any way that involves direct integration. They clearly don't see themselves as machines, but instead as a sentient race.
We don't know the 'structure' of their brains, why is it so hard to accept the possibility of an artificially constructed 'being' becoming so advanced that it can be regarded as 'sentient life' by any measure of or understanding of it?

For me, the whole 'point' of the Cylons, and the thing that makes them a credible 'adversary' for humanity if the fact that they are a race of artificial sentient beings.

Short answer. You cannot expect a rigid circuitry numeric ramdomizer to function like a constantly shape changing protein molecule holographic mass of jelloed amino acids.

They cannot learn or think alike even though they may seem superficially similar.

One is alive; the other isn't.

As always;

spcglider

February 28th, 2006, 12:27 PM

If you accept that, as Apollo explains in the movie, that the cylon warriors were designed after the human form, one would think that the designers might be tempted to solve certain problems by relying on biological solutions.

But there exists the possibility that a mechanical being of sufficient subtlety might actually "read" as a life form to the scanner devices of the Galactica universe.

In Marvel Comics, the original Human Torch (not Johnny Storm) was an android... a perfect synthetic human replica (albeit with super powers and the ability to burst into flame when he wanted to). So is he a machine? Or something alive?

After a while, when you think about it, the line between machine and biological unit start to become blurred.

-G

spcglider

February 28th, 2006, 12:30 PM

Well, ignoring processes that are specific to organics by their very nature....

Because they are able to direct their own evolution, it doesn't invalidate it.
Imperious Leader describes Gamoray as (correct me if I'm wrong, something like) 'An important centre of Cylon culture and Learning'.
In a protracted war with the Colonies that has clearly reached stalemate, they learn to employ completely different tactics, to infiltrate and divide, to use trickery, subterfuge and ultimately to triumph!
Lucifer says to a Centurion (on the subject of Baltar) 'He's wonderfully devious, we can learn much from him'.
Red-Eye 'senses' that Apollo wants to destroy him.
Successive generations incorperate improvements learned/designed by those that preceeded them.
They are self-aware, motivated, individuals. They have taken control of their own destiny and don't even 'interact' with machines in any way that involves direct integration. They clearly don't see themselves as machines, but instead as a sentient race.
We don't know the 'structure' of their brains, why is it so hard to accept the possibility of an artificially constructed 'being' becoming so advanced that it can be regarded as 'sentient life' by any measure of or understanding of it?

For me, the whole 'point' of the Cylons, and the thing that makes them a credible 'adversary' for humanity if the fact that they are a race of artificial sentient beings.

I think what it comes down to is that, contrary to Starbuck's best efforts, you ain't repairing no cylon with a wrench and a screwdriver.

-G

Damocles

February 28th, 2006, 01:16 PM

I think what it comes down to is that, contrary to Starbuck's best efforts, you ain't repairing no cylon with a wrench and a screwdriver.

-G

http://www.foresight.org/EOC/EOC_Chapter_1.html

Read that, and you will soon discover that your average artilect will work nothing like you do. We hope to build something like us, in about a thousand years; but we already know they are not us; never will be us; or act, or think like us.

That is because they are not bio-logics.

They are MACHINES. We suspected this from the days of Mary Shelley. Having built mechanical ants to emulate living ants we confirmed the suspicion.

They think like machines.

As always; :salute:

spcglider

February 28th, 2006, 02:38 PM

http://www.foresight.org/EOC/EOC_Chapter_1.html

Read that, and you will soon discover that your average artilect will work nothing like you do. We hope to build something like us, in about a thousand years; but we already know they are not us; never will be us; or act, or think like us.

That is because they are not bio-logics.

They are MACHINES. We suspected this from the days of Mary Shelley. Having built mechanical ants to emulate living ants we confirmed the suspicion.

They think like machines.

As always; :salute:

If there are no screws or bolts, Damocles, you still aint fixin' no cylon with a wrench or a screwdriver.

I aint seen no screws or bolts on a cylon.

-G

Damocles

February 28th, 2006, 03:16 PM

If there are no screws or bolts, Damocles, you still aint fixin' no cylon with a wrench or a screwdriver.

I aint seen no screws or bolts on a cylon.

-G

Give me a magnet and a rock and I'll fix Cy-permanently.

No screws and bolts..................

As always; :salute:

Centurion Draco

March 2nd, 2006, 12:31 PM

Short answer. You cannot expect a rigid circuitry numeric ramdomizer to function like a constantly shape changing protein molecule holographic mass of jelloed amino acids.

They cannot learn or think alike even though they may seem superficially similar.

One is alive; the other isn't.

As always;

Helloooo....again ;)

Thing is Damo, I (respectfuly) think that you are taking a 'known facts' scientific approach to the problem, and this causes you to exclude the possibility of a 'theoretical' solution to the problems involved in creating such a complicated machine.
I wouldn't deny that we don't have the technology to create a machine with a CPU that could 'ape' the hominid brain (and the oscar for worst pun goes too....).
However, given that we are talking about a machine created by aliens (and a demon), and that said machine has been created to emulate aspects of both its creators and humanity, and added to that the fact that we only know that these 'machine creatures' have emotions, 'senses', are independant (blah, blah, I've already been through it all I know) and they may even register on a 'lifeform scan'.
So.... Can you be absolutely certain that given a theoretical technology capable of artificially emulating an organic brain, could said creature not effectively be 'alive' or 'conscious'?

Damocles

March 2nd, 2006, 01:08 PM

Helloooo....again ;)

Thing is Damo, I (respectfuly) think that you are taking a 'known facts' scientific approach to the problem, and this causes you to exclude the possibility of a 'theoretical' solution to the problems involved in creating such a complicated machine.
I wouldn't deny that we don't have the technology to create a machine with a CPU that could 'ape' the hominid brain (and the oscar for worst pun goes too....).
However, given that we are talking about a machine created by aliens (and a demon), and that said machine has been created to emulate aspects of both its creators and humanity, and added to that the fact that we only know that these 'machine creatures' have emotions, 'senses', are independant (blah, blah, I've already been through it all I know) and they may even register on a 'lifeform scan'.
So.... Can you be absolutely certain that given a theoretical technology capable of artificially emulating an organic brain, could said creature not effectively be 'alive' or 'conscious'?

My jumpoff is the se4lf-organizing algorithmn. You and I are living self organizing algorithmns.

http://www.aridolan.com/

Any artilect starts off from something like us. It is not abiotic, which means it is not a self organizing algorithmn. We build the algorithmns. They are more limited in origin, architecture, and approach. That is due to a bio-logic trying to build a machine-logic to imitate it. I fully anticipate that two bio-logics that invent the wheel, will build the binary charge logic computer, as well, for the foundation for their first artilects.

As for certainty? The likelihood of an abiotic intelligent machine is about 1*10E-15 to one. The odds against us were 1*10E-13 to one. So it's possible.

As always; :salute: